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Unfortunately, it is impossible to predict what action and when for PL/NL. During the WPF last November, I never saw a single game go. I will be trying extra hard to get some off this time, unless I'm "stuck" in the tourneys all day and night long. Sigh.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You will attract the "poker tourists". Maybe not as profitable for you as the true "touristy" types, but most of us irregulars are still fish compared to you.
My only live NL action ever remains the one night I played at FW after the tourney when you invited me to a game.
I only make it to poker destinations a couple of times per year, but would try to structure a trip around a PL/NL game if I knew when it would be.
Nothing like the adrenalin of a live NL game.
Wes
Somebody decide on a place and time I will get the word out to the right players. It should not be a problem getting the game going.
David -
Looks like I went 0 for 3 for the decisions I had to make in this hand. I guess I still have something to learn :)
I can accept that my raise was too large; but why exactly should it have been smaller? In this particular case, I would have still gotten 4 callers if I had made it 20 or 25 to go. Is it because, if my raise is smaller, the pot is smaller, and I can more easily get away from a trouble hand?
What is it specifically about AQs that doesn't like everyone to fold?
-Oz-
I think the point that David Sklansky is trying to make is by making a large raise you are risking too much to win too little.
Falcon
Four hours into the 120 buy in, optional 120 rebuy no limit tourney at foxwoods yesterday, I busted out with the following hand under the following conditions.
I have 4,000 in chips, making me about 4th at the table. The blinds are 150/ 300 with a 50 ante. The limits increase every 30 minutes.
In the BB I look down and see AsKs. Everyone folds to the LB who raises to 900. LB is the chip leader at the table who plays solid hands. I put him on a pair, AK or weaker, and possibly KQ suited. He had surrendered his LB several times to me before, so I realized that the chances that he could be stealing were minimal. At this point, I figure that my chances are about 50/50. My chip position is not great, so I decide that it is time to make a stand. I push all in, and he calls immediately.
On the flop, the second card out is a king, and when i turn over my cards, he turns over KK.
This was my first big NL tourney, and I'm pretty happy about my overall performance. Thinking back on this play, I'm not sure that I would have done anything differently. I would appreciate any feedback at all since I tend to lose with AK more than any other 3 hands combined.
Thanks in advance for your help.
captmarlow
n/t
n/t
First post to 2+2 for me, a long time RGPer, looking forward to spending some time here. Sorry for the length of the post, but I try to be as detailed about hands as I can.
Game: 5/10/sometimes 15 straddle Pot limit HE in LA.
Situation: Have two black aces in early position. Raise to $30, middle position caller, late position caller, one blind calls. I sometimes limp early with AA/KK but often raise. I have about $2500 in front of me, as does the middle position player.
Flop is KT7, two spades. I open for $100, MP player raises $335. Next 2 players muck. MP player is very tight, solid and fairly uncreative, but has been known to make an occasional "move" when he feels he has a good read on a hand. I decide to call, since I can put him on a range of hands at this point, including nut draws. I don't raise because I respect him when he raises and he may have me beat. I don't muck because I may still have the best hand or may have on the turn if I improve, including the board pairing with a 7 or maybe T.
Turn is an offsuit 5. I check to him to see if he's on a free card play or to see how much he wants to bet. He bets $800. I think for a short while and muck my cards. Had the 5 on the turn been a spade, I believe I would have checked and moved in if he bet. We do make money deals regularly in this game.
My thinking is: I believe that if he was on a big draw he'd take the free card, I don't think he'd try to move me off the hand with a draw after I already called his flop raise. He'd respect the possibility that I flopped a big hand and would come over the top. I also don't think he'd risk over $2k more with AK, when he'd have to consider my having AA or a flopped set. I decide that he's most likely to have 77, with KK second, since he can smooth call raises with big hands pre-flop. I don't put him on TT because I feel he would have re-raised pre-flop, but that's not an absolute. I also feel he would have done that with AK. I don't think he'd call an early raise from me with KT. Comments on my decision? Answer to what he had below, I dragged it out of him the next night :)
Steve N
He had TT for a flopped set.
with aces i seem to win small pots or lose big pots....therefore, a raise before the flop was mandatory. at that point you are the favorite...in no limit/pot limit there are too many flops that can make you aces seem weak, and a good opponent will take advantage of that. you've got to bet and raise in this postion.
The issue of tempo comes into play here. AA is a big huge, monstrous hand in holdem if you're 2 and a half or less in tempo. Other huge Hands that come only once every fifty hands KK, QQ, or AK are anywhere from 4.5 to 1 to 15 to 1 underdogs. And that's cold out. None of these hands are better than about 8.5 to 1 to beat the Aces on the flop. Thus, AA is a really big hand and it's tough to get them beat, but any real player will tell you that he loves to see them, anytime.
You're very deep in this game, however, so Doyle's saying "lose a big pot, win a small pot" is apropo in this circumstance. The K helped you. It would be difficult to bluff on fourth street from position as the bluffer may run into 3Ks.
Another point is that there is no one way to play this hand. If you always call the flop raise and then release on the turn, good players will notice this tendency and take advantage of you. If you won't defend Aces (caps indicate deification) when you're really deep and release for the raise on the flop, players will take advantage of that.
Another point is that players throughout my area, will play for action here (with two people behind them) and only call (slowly) on the flop. You don't get big sets very often, and they would try to trap you or one of the players behind them. Some players have so much trap in them, that a raise is always a bluff. Watch those tendencies.
Last point. If this was the standard (but hopefully not only) play, I wouldn't want anyone to know that I didn't defend the Aces. If this is a really unusual play for you, I guess it would be okay.
5-10-NL home game. here it goes. Everyone has about $1000 give or take a hundred or so....
I dunno much about these players as I am new to this game, but i recognize a face or two and they tell me its a solid game... I get dealt 2 black kings on the button. UTG an average player, raises 50. all fold to a middle position who reraises 100 more, next player calls 150 cold, cutoff reraises all in, and the action is to me. Im almost 100% certain that im up against a pocket pair of aces somewhere and i muck my hand. UTG mucks his hand face up QQ. Middle position thinks for a while and mucks KK face up. The cold caller flips up his cards JJ and calls time. He stares down the all in reraiser for two minutes or so, and mucks his hand. The cutoff takes down a nice pot and everyone says show your aces. He ponders for a second or so, flips over 32s and drags the pot. You gotta love no limit!
How the hell can people muck their hand face up when there is still action behind them!!!!!!!!!
That is insane!!!!!!!!!
For obvious reasons this is really unfair. I do not believe the entire table would do this. Your story lacks credibility.
So you're saying that two people had pocket kings, one had pocket jacks and one had pocket queens and NOONE called?
I find this hard to believe.
For pocket aces to be up against pocket kings it is roughly 260:1
Sounds like the cutoff was trying to make a move on the pot with all the raises going on.
His shove in smell like a steal (which in hindsight it was).
I'd have to grit my teeth and call all in with KK in this situtation.
If the "all in" had AA he most likey would have waited for the flop to check raise all in if the board ragged which in this case with all the face cards out it most likey would have.
I think a call in this situation is nessasary.
The a priori odds of pocket aces up against pocket kings might be 260:1, but after a raise, a re-raise, a re-re-raise all in, I think its safe to assume that you're up against aces. Even if you don't think the cut-off has it, you have the two original raisers, and the cold-caller to act behind you.
Its not a limit game, and HERO doesn't know the other players, but he's been led to believe they're pretty solid.
Anyway, I'd probably dump the kings, too, but I'm not convinced the post is a true story. If it is, I'd be interested to hear what the original poster has to say about how the rest of the night went, particularly hands involving 23-man.
I have been in hands where there was AA, KK and QQ and also a hand where there was AA, AA and KK. (I had KK and flopped a set!!!)
Having said all that....
somehow this story lacks credibility..
Cheers,
Keith
A story need not be credible to have value. Take Gulliver's Travels and The Odyssey for example.
I think it's a no-brainer fold of pocket kings. Rare that this happens, but it does. Folding a big pair against a double show of strength needs to be a routine play to have a shot, at least in the no-limit games around here.
Also, if ONE person EVER showed a mucked big pair while action was still live, he'd have a finger chopped off, at least.
As to credibility, three weeks ago at the Pacific News no-limit game, pocket aces were dealt 10 times in two hours. Amazing? How about this? Three of those times, someone else had pocket kings. We're talking AA vs KK in a ring no-limit game, in two hours. And yes, all hands were shown. This is not based on post-mortem discussion.
I don't think it's strange or incredible when these things happen. It'd be stranger if they didn't.
Tommy
I can validate this as 2 of those three times I held the pocket Kings. Another time, I had pocket Aces and got all in on the 9-high flop against a guy who held pocket Jacks. Turn Jack, river Ace. And once more I got all-in preflop with QQ against pocket Aces. Needless to say, it was a bad night.
Then I played in my regular pot limit game back in NYC and got pocket Aces on the first hand and got all-in against a loose guy with AK. Won that time after he flopped a gutshot that didn't get there. A few hours later, he tries to move me off of my pocket queens with a big reraise preflop, and I call his all-in bet. His hits a set to his pocket 8s
A couple hours later, after running over the table with garbage, I pick up pocket Kings. I reraise the same loose guy after the raised UTG. An ultra-tight player doubles my raise out of the blind. The losse player folds and it should be an easy muck, but I think to myself "if you start getting gunshy, you should quit the game."
So I shove it all-in since the guy only has $150 left. He calls and show me the Aces immediately. I later lost the rest of my nearly $1500 nightly profit when I got into a preflop raising war from the button with AK against a stubborn player in the BB. I put him on a after he raised my initial raise. I then knew he didn't have a big pair (he is habitually tricky) and came over the top. I was right, but still couldn't beat his AJ, with which he put nearly $500 in before the flop ($5-$5 blinds). Guess he put me on the reresteal.
I love big bet poker, too.
Tommy- did you hear about this run of big cards from another player. I don't recall seeing you there on Mrach 27. If you are referring to a separate occurence, maybe we have to start talking conspiracy.
Michael, I think I'm the guy that talked to you at the counter before the game started. You were talking to Alex and I walked in and he said "speak of the devil" because you had said you were passing through town and had heard of this NL game on the net from some dude named Tommy.
Are we on the same page?
If so, nice to have met you. :-)
Tommy
A pretty soft home game I play in has started dealing pot limit Omaha (o/8) in addition to the usual mix of limit stud, omaha, and 5cs. This is a general strategy question but for texture players in this game are either loose passive or loose agressive for the most part, one or two (at most) tight agressive players.
Flopping top-two pair is giving me some trouble in this game though, in pot limit what's teh best way to proceeed when you flop top two pair and are in early position (particluarly a hand like kings up when you also hold an ace.? I'd think that a big bet here would drive out a lot of players but in this game it doesn't you'll get low draw callers and all sorts of crazy calls who then frequently catch miracle cards on the turn and/or the river.
I've played next to no pot limit but this is a very profitable game overall for me and so I'm reading up and trying to learn more about pot limit so please don't assume any great knowledge in your responses.
Thank you.
MAP
When there are low and straight/flush draws with your top two, and also even with top set, then in PLO/8 you don't have a great hand. If you try and get all in on the flop, you're a dog to the combined outs against you. Sure sometimes you'll scoop - but more often you will only get half and also sometime none! The hand you describe is sometimes worth a bet in position BUT (1) you must be prepared to pass to a check-raise (2) you must be prepared to switch off if a bad card comes on 4th. It's a high variance play. Typically, if it's checked to me, i'll tend to check too and wait for 4th street. (Of course I'm assuming in all of this that u have no more outs than top two/set)
Of course with only 1 low card out, trips especially shoots up the scale and should then be played as per striaght PLO.
Good luck
Dave D
Was this written by Paula Abdul or Kareem ? The worst advice I have seen. If you are out there Abdul lets get together for heads up game. ROFLMAO
Can you be more specific? What exactly is it about the advice that you are objecting to? It might make for good discussion.
Can you be more specific? What exactly is it about the advice that you are objecting to? It might make for good discussion.
...and that way, you wouldn't have to delete the original insulting post based on the premise that it prompted "good discussion"?
Otherwise, why would that original post be allowed to remain on the board?
callyouanabdulfan. Hey , there is no insult there. I think Paula Abdul is very attractive and Kareem was a great basketball player. I just dont think Abduls method of play will get you the money in the long run. A few small reasons are in the above post. Apparently you use his method to play hold em. Do not take my orginal post personally. I was trying to be funny. If it was an insulting post I could do much better than that. Regards
By the way , I got his strategy here on Masons site.
The reason I responded in the way I did was because the initial post in this thread is an insult and it shouldn't have been put up. If M.A, or anyone else for that matter thinks there are flaws with Abdul's ideas then they can be discussed on thses forums, and I suspect that the discussion could be very interesting.
Our policy is to try to warn someone first when they are beginning to violate our posting guidelines. If they persist then we will eventually take appropriate action.
Hi Mason For one is the value of the smaller pairs in middle position. Hands such as K7 offsuit are almost worthless on the button. The small blind he will play pretty much anything you will get dealt in hopes to get lucky. Why bother with a 3-5 offsuit any position? While I would agree with 2/3 of what he says, the other 33% is fear and superstition. I am sure you have read all of what he has written. Tell me what you disagree with on his strategy. Thanks
Are you just going to keep responding to yourself?
Abdul advice is the most interesting and refreshing posted on this forum. Without a doubt, the most worthwhile to a long time poster.
I dont remember answering myself. I do remember answering Masons question though. Someone apparently got a post in while I was responding. I did add to a post with something I forgot to put in s post. Which one are you talking about JV ? Regards
sounds to me like you might not have noticed that his chart is for opening the pot, not just when to play what hands. or maybe not. Abdul's advice is not perfect, but I don't find it laughable. maybe you can explain more?
When everyone else has folded up to you in the small blind, if you would fold more than your very worst hands then I gladly accept your challenge to play heads up.
-Abdul
My money's on Abdul, even if M.A, doesn't fold more than his very worst hands in the sb.
However, is K-7 "worthless" on the button, as M.A, asserts, or worth a raise, as Abdul asserts?
If you're going to pick on hands, I don't think you should pick on the ones right at the borderline. If I say K7 is the normal minimum on the button, then if there's a rake or the small blind is loose or the big blind can slightly outplay you or any number of other things, open-raising with K7 on the button would become negative in my eyes and I would suggest folding it. Instead of picking on a hand right at the border, to make your point conclusively, you should demonstrate that a hand a couple notches better is stupid to open-raise with. So, argue that K9 or A7 is suicidal to open-raise with on the button, and then you will have made your point about K7 too... or you will be laughed at.
Back to the issue at hand. I must have had 200 people question this table with this sort of confusion involved. The other day, someone in person asked me why in this table that lists what hands to open with in each position there was no listing for the big blind. (Think about it.) Obviously the phrase "open the pot" is meaningless to most poker players, so I will refrain from using it in the future. For anyone still confused, "to open the pot" means "to be the first one to willingly put money into the pot."
-Abdul
Of course a criticism will aim at the borderline hands, they're the most "outrageous" in the view of the critic.
Abdul's advice is very subtle and although he has sometimes (and somewhat tongue-in-cheek) criticized S & M for their "hyphen-this and hyphen-that" advice, he also gives a lot of different advice for situations that, to a novice, may appear similar but, to Abdul, are very different. Thus, for example, he has a tight game opening strategy, and a loose-aggressive game opening strategy. He discusses facing tight and loose limpers, facing raisers, defending your big blind, defending your small blind, and compares and contrasts his recommendations with S & M. To say that his advice is 33% fear and superstition, that he plays hoping to get lucky, or that it's the worst advice one's ever seen, is, well, just plain good news for the rest of us.
"This simple desert nomad does not claim to be always correct, only always thought provoking."
In regards to the "open the pot" phrasing, it helped me to easily understand you when you started using the term "open raise" months back, which I assume you coined.
Is there anywhere that I could get this mythical table of controversey that I've heard mentioned several times? I think that any alternate views on poker are always interesting at worst, and enlightening at best. I'd be curious to ask you question about it. I'm also a little curious about your background. Most posts that I've read with your name mentioned praise you very highly. It's a little confusing, not to know why.
.
Abdul, I haven't seen your lists, but I don't understand why its profitable to complete the small blind with all but your "very worst hands" when you'll be playing in worst position.
Of course, it depends on what kind of small blind structure we're talking about. If its a 2/3 bet small blind, I'll indeed call with all but my worst. But if it's a 1/3 bet small blind, or even a 1/2 bet small blind, I will fold the majority of my hands, ESPECIALLY when it's down to just the big blind and myself. My position is so bad that it's worth the wait.
Also, there's a pretty big difference between having the pot turn out to be heads up and playing in a heads up game. I think this two situations are often conflated incorrectly.
If you're talking about 2/3 bet small blinds only, then I understand. But if you're talking about 1/3 or 1/2, I don't get it.
natedogg
I ignore the 1/3 of a small blind case, because that's only at low limits in my experience. For the 1/2 blind case, you're getting 3:1 in immediate odds from the pot, with the chance to win a lot more if you flop a pair, well, assuming your opponent cooperates and does not raise preflop. In HfAP, when it's folded around to you in the small blind S&M say you should play 86, 32s, 72s, and A2 but fold J2, except that if it's a 2/3 blind situation then they say any two cards will do. Hmm, technically, my table includes J2 as a minimum, though for tens it jumps to T7. J2 is not worth arguing over, but a hand like K2 or even Q2 I would play by limping, folding if raised, and otherwise firing on the flop under the assumption that my opponent's preflop check makes it likely my hand was best preflop and so may still be best now. Does J2 have enough high card strength to play that way? Maybe not.
M.A. specifically picks on 53, saying you should muck it when it's folded around to you in the small blind. It is utterly lacking in high card strength, and most think that straight draws are worthless heads up, but that's not so. When going for a straight, you can back into a pair (or two pair or trips), and that's often good heads up.
Again, I suggest you don't pick on the border, but a couple notches up. Say K2 and 75... if you can successfully argue that those should not be played, then I'll have to admit that J2 and 53 should not either.
-Abdul
That makes a LOT more sense if you exclude the 1/3 blind case. I would probably play a little tighter than you do but K high and the like make sense. J2, no. It was the 1/3 blind case that was really throwing me off.
Also, you said would call with hands like Q4 and K2 and fold if raised, firing on the flop if not.
I'm assuming that your read on your opponent is crucial in this situation and you will adjust mostly based on that. If my opponent has an itchy trigger finger, I would tend to fold more hands because I'm going to throw away my 1/2 bet by calling and then folding. Is this the right strategy? Or should you be willing to just call the raise more often? It's harder to beat aggressive opponents heads up and I would tend to give up that small blind more readily and move to the next open seat asap!
Now let me go think about this 75o ...
natedogg
I recall that I did not intend for J2 and J3 to be in the opening hands for the small blind. It was just a matter of representational simplicity in the chart; I lumped all the hands into "Jx."
Yes, natedogg, of course if the big blind is very aggressive, you should muck more often when it's folded around to you in the small blind. S&M mention this in HfAP. Hands like Q2 might become unplayable, but you'll get a bigger return on your good hands.
-Abdul
Since you don't want to raise with K2o (likely the best hand), where do you draw the line to raise? You are limping a lot here, I prefer raising a lot. You criticized me recently (in a private email) for open-raising with T8o in the sb, what's wrong with that if I know the opponent is foldable?
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
If you know the big blind can fold a hand, then a raise here is probably worth it with just about anything, including T8o.
But I think he'd have to be a weak player not to catch on pretty quick and start re-popping you with just about anything himself. (or herself as the case may be).
Abdul's approach makes sense. I think it's being discussed in the wrong context tho. I think the main point should be "who is in the big blind"?
That factor should be the top of the decision tree if you ask me. By listing hand requirements, it confuses some people who don't realize that the most important factor is the person in the big blind and how they play.
In the games I play most people usually chop and you do better if you go along and chop with them. You get friendlier action and the table continues to have fun. However, I once sat next to a guy who informed me he doesn't chop. I proceeded to determine that he pretty much won't call a raise with anything less than ace high when it is folded around.
I robbed him blind no pun intended. He had just about the stupidest policy I've ever seen. "I don't chop and I don't protect my blind either." Duh.
natedogg
I assume by default that you're playing against a tough opponent. I assert that it's going to be obvious to you when to deviate and how to deviate based on the pecularities of your opponent, and it would be impossible for me to anticipate all the possible deviations. When you're heads up and you assume your opponent is very tough, then you're playing "game theory" style. Against an opponent who is optimal, game theory is breakeven, but most opponents are far from optimal especially heads up, so game theory will still crush them in practice.
I'll assume the small blind is 1/2 the big blind.
Limping: Assuming you're playing against a tough opponent, getting to see the flop for 1/2 a bet invested into the 1.5 bet pot gives you 3:1 immediate odds from the pot, plus more in implied odds if you catch a pair. To cover your limps, sometimes limp-reraise with big hands like KK. To cover your limp-reraises, sometimes limp-reraise with not-so-big hands like T9s.
Raising: When open-raising in the small blind, you are laying 1.5 bets to win 1.5 bets. By raising, you're "betting the pot", so you need a fairly strong hand to raise, and your positional disadvantage means you'll need a still stronger hand to raise. The more you raise, the more strength you'll sap from your limping hands, so unless you carefully balance by limping with more strong hands, your opponent can mercilessly attack your limps. I don't favor a 100% raise-or-fold policy here, because I do want to limp with a lot of hands if possible. Also note that when you open-raise on the button instead, you put a lot of pressure on the small blind and usually get it to fold and leave some dead money into the pot, but this doesn't happen when opening from the small blind.
-Abdul
I am glad to see some good discussion here on the different strategys. I have never opened a pot with worse than S&M group 7 ever in the last 11 years of play. My approach is different as it goes like this. This is # hands of button. S&M Charts. Groups 1&2 -7 off, Group 3 -6&5 off, Group 4 -3&2off, Group 5 1-off, Group 6 on button, Group 7 small blind. This has allowed me ( lacking a small fraction ) almost 2 BB per hour in regular casino play. This is somewhat tighter than Abduls play but has worked very well for 11 years now. I do however stick with 20 to 40 and 15 to 30 games. I am a full time player and average around 7 hours a day 5 days a week. You do have to play worse hands than group 7 in the big blind in an unraised pot. It is nice to win with say a 3-5 offsuit but as we all know , it does not happen often in any position. Regards
No-limit Hold'em, 4-players, Under the Gun, $.50/$1.00 blinds.
I call with Ace eight off-suit, next player folds, Solid Player I play with often bets $2, one caller, I call as well. I'm currently the biggest stack at the table with about $85 in chips.
Flop comes A 9 8, two spades. Pre-flop raiser bets $4, BB folds, I call.
Turn comes 8s. Raiser bets $6, I just call, planning to score on river.
River comes 7s. Raiser bets $10, I ponder going all-in, decide instead to re-raise $20. Raiser thinks a minute, then goes all in for about $30 more.
There is 7 8 9 A of spades out there, with an odd 8. I'm holding Eights full of Aces, beaten (or so I think) only by Ace 9, which I cannot see him raising pre-flop with. I put him on possibly 7s, or 9s at this point, not even thinking about the straight flush. He turns over J 10 of spades, for the lock.
This guy is a good friend of mine, and we play together all the time. I was 95% certain he didn't have A-9, and it was possible to see him doing what he did with 7s, 9s, or even a7 or a8.
Did I make ther ight call, calling the final $30? Even with that last paragraph, it is also equally likely that he could have played the same way with something like K Q of spades... betting $4 on his flush draw on the flop isn't completely out of left field, but not exactly a standard play. Is this an easy call, or do you sometimes fold this?
Note -- this is a home-game, so no bad beat jackpot obviously (damn!)
Thanks, Max
Flop as A 9 A, then the 8, then the 7... so no Ace-ace possible for the bigger fullhouse, only A 9. 9s full or 7s full wouldn't have beaten me here. My bad.
At first glance, it looks like you have and easy call because the hand you have so likely best compared to hands he could have, but when he reraises all - in after you made a raise that it was clear you were trying to get him to call, it is very unlikely your hand is good.
You can be sure he is not stealing, and since he is not stealing, what hands can he go all in with? I can't think of many others besides the nuts, esp. since you hold an A8.
BTW, I don't really play NL, but isn't A8o about the worst 2 cards you can be dealt in this game? I would never call a raise from an early player with this in a limit game, and this hand has to fare much worse out of postion in NL than in limit. Can you defend an A high flop? How about an 8 high? Didn't think so. Will you get action when your hand is good? only rarely.
Again, I may not be a NL player, but I would interpret the $2 raise pre-flop as either a monster like AA , AKs or KK, where he doesn't want to scare everyone, or a hand of some quality that wants some company, perhaps lots of company, but will win more if the pot is a little bigger - hands like KQs, QJs, JTs, 99, etc.
In other words, I think conbining this pre-flop play with the river situation should lead you to conclude you can't win. No one would reraise in that spot (since they had the chance to call) unless they could beat aces full or were bluffing, and it should be pretty easy to rule out a bluff from all but the most sophisticated or crazy players.
Good luck.
Dan Z.
Thinking back on the hand, I'm pretty sure that analysis is dead on. The call pre-flop is because as big stack, a $2 raise didn't really matter, and with an uninteresting flop and my table image I could easily take the pot down. As for the re-raise on the river, I must have been beaten.
Thanks, Max
Does everyone agree with slow playing this flop? A big check-raise might put his draws under pressure or let you release 2nd best when he plays back.
Fat-Charlie
This is a Texas potlimit game with 8 players and two blinds 5-5.
Im in fifth position with the two black aces and 500 in front of me. That is less than everybody else (at least the ones involved in the hand).
UTG raises to 20. Next player calls, pot is 50. I raise to 75. All fold to the BB who cold calls. UTG calls but the last player folds.The pot is 250. We see the flop threehanded.
Flop comes Ah, Jh, 5h. BB checks, UTG bets 125.
I have 425 left. How do I play?
Should I play any different before flop?
This is the third hand Im dealt and Im a new player in this game. I know nothing about the other players but the game is solid.
You move all-in before he even has time to blink.
The pot has 350 and you have 425 in front of you with a set of aces. I can't imagine there's much to think about here.
There's a slight chance you are facing a flush but not much. You said the game was "solid". KhQh is not worth 75 from UTG. I wouldn't be afraid of the made flush right here. Your preflop betting looks like you have a big pair or AK.
The UTG's preflop betting is pretty much the same, except it's not AA. So he probably has AK, KK, QQ or JJ. If he's got a big heart, you're getting all his money in the middle. Do it now. He might even put in his money with TxTh.
Let's put it this way, UTG made a hand and is betting into you. The ONLY hand you can't beat is a made flush, and that would mean he put in $75 from UTG with LESS than a big ace suited. Not likely. Sounds like AK or JJ or KK with Kh.
Your dream scenario is that UTG has AxKh, and the BB has JJ. Put the money in and hope they have something.
natedogg
Yes. I moved all in with my three aces. BB folded and I lost to UTG with Qh, Th.
I do think it was a lose call from UTG before the flop. When I went all in, the only UTG-hand I was truly affraid of was Kh, Qh.
Just call maybe? But I didīnt want BB to have a cheap draw with a single Kh either.
Maybe my reraise preflop was to easy to read (AA, KK). UTG will make no mistakes against me after the flop.
UTG was hard to read. I will make mistakes against him postflop.
This situation is an important one in poker and it shows how important it is to know who you're playing against.
I try to book each player on the flush tell. Players that give the flush tell tend to do it sneakily, as soon as the flop hits. Players that fake it tend to do so in an exaggerated fashion.
Seldom will you be able to pick up consistent tells like this in a tough casino game--which brings me to my central tendency theorem.
As time goes to infinity, all raked games become unbeatable.
...
Yes Im swedish!
Yes. I moved all in with my three aces. BB folded and I lost to UTG with Qh, Th.
I do think it was a lose call from UTG before the flop. When I went all in, the only UTG-hand I was truly affraid of was Kh, Qh.
Just call maybe? But I didīnt want BB to have a cheap draw with a single Kh either.
Maybe my reraise preflop was to easy to read (AA, KK). UTG will make no mistakes against me after the flop.
UTG was hard to read. I will make mistakes against him postflop.
I'd probably done the same. From my (maybe limited) experience a lot of people seem to make those kind of loose calls (especially at 5-5 at Kortoxen - is that where this hand was?). Some people could also have thrown away a lower made flush.
Pot Limit Omaha home game, no blinds, everyone antes $1. I have about $90 going into this hand, nearest opponent has about $72, next guy has $48, other opponent is shortstacked. We are 4-handed. Everyone checks to the button (i am the cut-off) who bets a routine $3. Everyone calls to me, I call with Q-J-9-x, two hearts, two spades. Flop comes Q-J-9, two hearts. Short stack fires in $3, next player (with about $72 going in) raises to $8. I call, fearing a made straight, but with tons of outs (any heart to a queen high flush, a Q-J-9 for a boat). The button raises $16. I am now sure I am against the nut straight. Short stack calls all-in for about $8. Original raiser calls, I call. I think I have a lot of outs here and the button is down to $20 at this point. Turn comes a 9, to give me 9's full of queens. Check to me, I bet $20, button calls all-in acting frusturated, and then I get check-raised all-in by the bigger stack for another $31. I think about it and figure we have the same hand or he has 9's full of jacks (though pocket queens or jacks would death). I call. Results below. Would anyone have played it differently or thought about it differently?
Jeff
The person who raised all-in at the end for the extra $31 had 9-Q as well so we chopped a massive pot. The original bettor flopped the nut straight and had pocket rockets. The short stack mucked. I think the original raiser played it terribly by calling the $20 on the turn, and he may have been wrong to raise on the flop. With all that action, he had to know that half the deck ran him over.
Jeff
at least it proved that i didn't read the results!
without reading the results i would fold to the reraise as he's got pocket Qs or Js
You can look at that flop and think you only have 2 outs, the 2 queens.
Probably add in the two jacks
Maybe add in the two 9's.
Don't add in the flush cards.
That's not a lot of outs for you.
I'll call a small bet, but I don't think I would have called the big action on the flop against a tough line up. However, with a guy like the button playing (don't you love these guys in pot limit that know they're beat, but just HAVE TO stay in?), you have some implied odds. The implied odds are better if that bet on the flop is smaller OR your stacks are larger and someone is going to pay you off. I wouldn't have called the 16 unless you knew the flush would be good and the stacks were a little bit bigger.
the button: how does that guy call that turn bet? I'll assume he had the straight. Man I love these guys. then the next hand when he has you beat, he's thinking back to this hand and you just push him right off it. beautiful shit.
This hand went down a few months ago. Because of this hand, I no longer push flush draws hard.
I am dealt Ac9c in the cutoff. There are a couple limpers and I call. We see the flop 5 handed.
Flop is 672 with two clubs.
All check to me and I bet about half the pot.
The big blind raises about 70 more and all fold to me. The big blind knows me well and thinks I easily fold to a big bluff. Not only that, but he LOVES to bluff. I figure there's a decent chance he's on a flush draw himself. He also knows I play tight before the flop and most likely do not have a piece of that garbage flop.
I re-raise all-in for about 300 more.
The big blind calls with two pair 67 and I suck out on the river with my flush.
My opponent told me that he was partially afraid I had flopped a set, but the chance I was just pushing a flushdraw tipped the balance and made him call. To me, the suckout was irrelevant. I think I made a bad play.
The reason I hate betting flush draws strong any more is that it's such an OBVIOUS play. Every player knows that if you are moving in strong on that two-tone flop, you are probably holding a flush draw. There's a very good chance you have only ace high. It becomes very easy for them to call you down with top pair no kicker or even less.
I feel that betting flush draws strong in no limit is a big mistake when you are facing even half-way decent no limit players. You'll be putting in a LOT of money to either bluff someone out of a weak hand or get called by something that you pretty much need the flush to beat. I save my big bluffs for other situations now, but I'm more likely to bet a mediocre hand strongly when the flop is two-tone, knowing that my opponent will be more likely to call with weaker hands, thinking I'm on the flush draw.
natedogg
I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Don't you want your opponents to call you wityh weak hands like top pair-no kicker as you will have a real hand more often than a flush draw?
Making the big semi-bluff is just a "low-cost" way of mixing up your play and enhancing a scary, unpredicatble and dangerous image. This is the image that I like to have at big bet as other people have to fear for their entire stack every time they make a bet.
And it costs so much less than big naked bluffs. As a matter of fact, on the hand you mentioned, a guy calling you with only a pair of sevens would actually be a dog to your flush draw plus two overs. Even a pair of Kings would only be a slight favorite to you.
I think you're better off staying flexible on this one.
Let's change shoes and say it is you who is facing an "obvious" big-move-with-a-draw from your opponent.
But unlike the guy with top-two, let's say you have top-pair-decent-kicker.
You "know" in your gut that he has a draw. But you don't absolutely know for sure, right? If the board is a bit clustered, meaning he could have a straight draw AND a flush draw, you're really is a bind. If he has the draw, you're not much of a favorite, and if he doesn't have a draw, then that means he has a real hand and you are drawing slim or dead.
See, he might make a big move with a pair/set type of hand because he is afraid that YOU have the draw. I think it's a dicier situation than you are given credit for.
Like so many issues, I think this is one of "optimum frequency." Ideally we make big moves with draws just often enough so that our opponents will be in the same quandry described above.
Tommy
As long as you also play good hands hard, this situation sounds fine.
How can they call you with top pair and a lousy kicker. If you have two overcards to the flush draw you are a favorite as long as one of your cards isn't in the other guys. Plus..you should put the same play on with a set.
Natedogg,
Why is betting at this an obvious flush draw? Wouldn't you play a hand like TT this way? Now you'd want to drive out draws and overcards. Isn't calling REALLY indicative of a drawing hand (or a big trap)? You want cheap cards until you make the hand.
Fat-Charlie
I'm relatively new to PLO so forgive me if this seems straightforward to many of you - I imagine that the following is a common scenario in this game:-
Ok - I've made top set with a flop of K-J(s)-X(s). I'm first to act into a field of four with Ģ250 in front of me. I bet the pot Ģ25 - all fold to my Nemesis (unknown quantity - seems solid and has me covered three times over)who raises me Ģ40 more. My instant reaction is that he's on a semi-bluff raise/free card play and so I pop him back. I have to confess that it's not until he re-raises that I realise he might have something like A(s)-Q-10-x(s). IF this is the case I figure I'm about an 11-10 dog but the pot is so big I have to call. He catches a 10(s) on the river and shows A(s)-2(s).
Is there a better way to have played this? Should I have got out earlier? Am I correct in thinking that the worst case scenario has me as an 11-10 dog?
Again I realise that this may be a no-brainer - but I intend to play the hand the same way next week should it happen again so I'd appreciate any feedback if I've misjudged the situation.
Thanks for your help.
Mike Cunningham
In this scenario I would bet about 1/2 the pot on the flop and call a raise. On the turn I would let loose a pot size bet, if I know I am still ahead. He has to be a gambler to call you then.
Derrick
Thanks Derrick - but I feel just calling the initial raise will put me on the defensive. He could be raising with a wide variety of hands - I'm out of position and any A,Q,10,9 or spade has me on the back foot. I also don't really understand the 1/2 pot bet that you suggest - I'm the first to act into a field of four so in his eyes I've probably got a decent made hand - why offer him better pot odds than is necessary for his draw? Is it really best to play top set of kings that passively?
Thank you for your response though - food for thought......
mike
The main point is that you'll be the favorite again on the turn if a blank comes, and if not you can consider getting out. So consider slowing down a little on the flop, then pounding the pot on the turn.
This is a common type of hand in PLO, and the correct play is very much dependent on the type of player your nemesis is. Still, I would agree with your gut feeling that you were not quite the favorite... here's why: For a reasonable player to raise you in this circumstance two things are likely to be true; first, he most likely is putting you on a set rather than a draw, and two, either he has a made hand with a draw (J-J-As-xs) or he has the nut flush draw and a wrap of somekind. After he re-raises you he can almost only have a giant wrap and the nut flush draw (ie- the hand you put him on). If he does, in fact, hold A-Q-10 with two spades he has 9 flush outs and 13 straight cards, which is 22 outs twice. That means you are closer to a 1.5 to 1 dog! Even if a blank hits on the turn you are still barely better than even money. So I would have just called his raise on the flop and then bet out on the turn to make him pay for the very small advantage you have. Interestingly, if there are 2 other players in this pot I would fold. That's right... folding the nuts is often correct in PLO. If there's a possible wrap draw and flush draw on the board with two or more callers and you don't have any of it, you are a dog with top set. You'll kick yourself those times when you would have filled up, but you'll be paying off a much larger portion of the time. -Craig H
I just read Craig's response and it's clearly wrong. From what I've understood Mike has top set so his opponent can't have nine flush outs. A draw in PLO can NEVER be a 1.5 to 1 favorite over top set. I also read another response of someone who said: call the raise and then bet out on the turn. This is horrible: what if your opponent IS in there with the three jacks and thinks his hand is good (are you going to fold on the turn thinking your opponent must have made a straight or flush?)? What if the board pairs on the turn, how are you going to make any more money then? The fact that, if your opponent really has a monster draw (which is not too likely) you might be a small (but only a really small) underdog, doesn't mean you don't still have positive expectation in the hand. It is true folding the nuts is sometimes correct in PLO but only if you both have the nuts but you're facing a redraw. Folding top set is ridiculous; in fact, Mike made the right play by getting all his money in. I's hard to get the nuts in any poker game; if you get the chance to go all-in on the flop with 3-kings you shouldn't hesitate for a moment. Bet the hell out of that top set!
well, Rolf, there are times when top set may be facing 20 to 30 outs,,,,be a big under dog to win,,, over time it may not pay to get it all in. luck to you jim browder
Craig - thanks for the reply.
If he has the best wrap/flush combination I think he actually only has about 18 outs once you discount duplications and the K(s) but he is still about a 3-2 favourite to make his hand with two cards to come. HOWEVER I may still improve as well which is why I think the odds come to about 11-10 on the flop. If I just call his raise and then bet out on the turn if a blank comes, the best I can do is to offer him 2-1 pot odds when he's now only about a 3-2 dog. Hence I think my original play forces him to make a much more difficult decision - and this coupled with the fact that he may well NOT have the best draw makes me more inclined to play the hand as aggressively as I did.
I completely agree with your advice about multi-handed action.
I think the more prudent course of action would probably be to take all of your advice and slow down a little bit - especially while I'm still trying to learn the basics of the bloody game. Thanks for your help.
mike
Give opponent best flush draw and best straight draw--he has A-Q-10 thus his outs are 8 spakes plus 3-A, 3-Q, 3-10, 3-9 equals 20 outs. Your hand plus the flop equals 7 cards seen plus 45 unseen cards. Odds would be 45 minus 20 outs equals 25 no help cards equals 25 to 20 on the next card off, so you are favored for one card and if it is a blank you are again favored---BUT pot odds make easy for him to call.
So, does he want to gamble, or do you? I liked your first bet, but would NOT "pop him back". And being conservative, I would check and call after the turn.
Seems we agree on exit in multi-player situation.
Good luck,
Jim Browder
Thanks for your response Jim - it's early morning here now in the UK and for want of anything better to do I'm watching baseball for the first time on ESPN (SFvLA) whilst I gulp strong continental lager. There's a reasonable chance therefore that the following opinions are profoundly wrong:-
OUTS POST FLOP = if he has say A(s)-Q(d)-10(d)-X(s) = I figure he has 8 flush cards [minus the K(s)] plus 3-A, 2-Q, 2-10, 3-9 - you can't count the 10(s)/Q(s) twice. I still think it's 18 outs.
You're right Jim that my decision to 'pop him back' is questionable - it's the crux of the problem - he could have an array of hands to raise me with (most of which are dogs to me) and he may even just be using position to try to buy it. I think it's a very close decision (you're right I may be gambling on a roughly 50-50 hand - but I am the aggressor and there's a reasonable chance he doesn't have the nut draw based on my info after his first raise) - however this seems to me that this must be a common scenario in PLO so I better think carefully about it. Sorry, therefore, if I seem to be labouring the point.
Been watching the Baseball now for 40 minutes. NO idea what's going on. Apparently Kirk's dropped a dribbler. I think that's illegal over here.
Once again - thank you for your response.
Cheers mike
Mike
If he truly has the wrap-around straight draw with the nut flush I believe you may be a slight underdog with two cards to come. I would call his re-raise and then wait to see what the turn brings. If a brick (non-straight or flush) falls on the turn I would immediately bet the pot. There is no way you can be losing and you want to charge him the maximum to draw out on you. An interesting play may be to check the turn if you fill up and then bet the river. This makes it look like you were also on a draw, and cause your opponent to figure you are betting a second best draw that came in. It won't work on your more observant opponents but may be worth it against the more inexperienced ones.
The opponent did not raise before the flop so his most likely hand would not beat top set. Unless you have watched the player for enough time to determine whether a move like his signals a big hand or a big draw, I don't think you have a choice but to bet as much as you can on the flop. I doubt that an opponent who would make this play is going to fold on the turn if a blank comes, especially if your bet puts him all in. He is committed and will likely see the river no matter what you do unless you shoot him. Fancy plays do not seem to work against opponents who play the odds correctly, especially not against with a draw to top set, nut straight, and flush. I would reraise him to the felt and pray. Folding top set on the flop after a reraise is just too timid.
Ok,my first post here, hope it isn't too long. This isn't truely a PL game it's a 4-8 game 5 handed with 4 of us playing overs (agreed to PL if it's just us left). Game shifts from really tight to capped preflop because of the maniac to the right of me. A rather good player though. I get AcKd on the BB, and it's capped when it gets to me. This isn't rare in this game.
Flop: Ad Ah 6d
Maniac in SB checks I bet the pot which is 50, I think this is a mistake as I will describe later.
UTG folds, button raises the pot and all my chips another 120, SB folds...
I am certain he is on a flush draw. I can't lay down trips top kicker to a draw can I? I also have Kd for runner runner nut flush so I call.
Turn: 8s
River: 3d
He hits his flush 9d10d and takes a winner.
Thoughts??
Afterwards, I thought checking the flop and giving a free card might be the best play. If the flop checked and a non diamond fell I might win it with a pot size bet. However, if a diamond falls I can either lay down what I am pretty sure is a beaten hand -- but I have now picked up the nut flush draw..Any thoughts on how to play this would be appreciated. I think there are several ways I could have either won this pot or laid down for less... Thanks.
I think that this has similarities to my recent PLO post, although this is probably more clear cut.
I would only check the flop with the intention of check-raising (this would depend on how deep the money is here) - this might be a good idea here as the texture of the flop combined with the general looseness of the players suggests that someone would probably take a stab at the pot, whereas an outright bet might just end the action there and then.
Like you I would have put the raiser on a flush draw or maybe A-X. This is great for you - if you go all in you're roughly better than a 3-1 favourite to take the pot. You just got unlucky. Of course if he's a near maniac he might have 6-6 and you're dead in the water unless an ace or king turn up but from the pattern of play I think that's less likely.
Hope this helps.
mike cunningham
You played the hand as best as you can with the chips you had. If you had sufficient chips then you re raise him as big a bet as you can, forcing him to make a tough decision on a flat out draw. If he calls and you lose, its just bad luck but still the right play. He probably wouldn't have even made that big a raise except that you were shortstacked. He knew his exposure was relatively limited, so why not pop it in and see if he could buy.
If instead he looked at your bigger (what you should have had) stack, saw that any raise was going to cost him everything, then the hand would have played completely differently.
You probably would have been able to drive him off the draw either on a big flop reraise or big turn bet.
check, call after flop--if flush does not come on the turn, then bet the pot--with only one card to come he might not call--your description of him suggests he will call, so you may not save $ anyway! no you don`t fold after his raise....actually you want him to draw, you just don`t want him to hit!
Jim, The more I think about it I agree with you on checking and calling the flop for several reasons...
If a non diamond falls on the turn there's a slightly better chance he won't call a pot size bet from me with only the river to improve. A-X will still pay me off and if he fills with a 3 or 8 that's the game.
Having played with this guy before leads me to believe he probably would have laid down after the turn if the flush doesn't hit. I don't think I got unlucky, this is a common dilemna in PL and learning to play against big draws is key- How strongly do you play early, on the flop and turn, only to know your hand is no good on the river?
most times you want to get allin with him and not let him out on fourth street. especially since with that flop you could have him dead to three cards if he also has an ace.
You played it fine. You have the second nuts on the flop. He wants to push in with a hand that even if he hits you have plenty of chances to outdraw him with. You are a huge favorite to win this hand. He just caught a break.
third nuts 66 or A6
You did the right thing. The maniac got lucky. I often wait until the turn, but it is to try and trap. The maniac trapped himself. I would make this bet against the maniac all day.
Derrick
I still think that the biggest problem here is that you didn't have sufficient chips on the table to minimize the potential vs. risk for the draw. I disagree that you want him to draw. Personally, I would rather win a thousand mid-size pots (forcing him to fold the draw on flop or turn) then lose one large pot when he takes a shot at the river.
I see this all the time, people that don't have enough on the table to even protect their good hands. Sometimes they've just reached the limit they are willing to risk, which is fine, but if you only had a small amount of chips in relation to the game by choice I think it is a mistake.
Of course I would rather win 1000 midsized pots then lose the big one, but had he posted that he had won this hand, my guess is you would say he played it correctly.
I disagree with not putting your money in on the flop in this situation for 2 reasons.
You have the backdoor nut flush draw, and this leaves your opponent only 8 flush outs. Also, he could very well have a weaker A.
With the above numbers, if he is drawing to the flush not considering back door outs he has only 8 diamonds to hit, and he can't have an A (one left), a K (3 left), or a 6 (3 left) (or running pair).
You have only 1 less out then him.
So you are better then a 2:1 favorite on the flop, and you have redraws. There is a good chance that he has a weaker A, and there is a very slim chance that you are behind on the flop.
It would be interesting to run a simulation on this, and see how much of a favorite AK is vs the suited connector.
These are just my opinions.
Derrick
I think betting is the correct play, the "maniac" that is good is to your right and has already checked which means checking isn't as valuable as it would be were he still to act. Also you guessed correctly that the button was potting it with a flush draw, if he is likely to make this play, betting becomes better.
You said that you were agreeing with the check the flop ideas that were proposed so that you can get him to fold the turn when you bet, but I disagree. If he had shown you his 9-10 flush draw would you choose for him to fold the flop or put you all-in on the flop? Obviously you make more money if as many chips as possible of his are in the middle, so why do you want him out of the pot?
Winning 1000 small pots is great, but not as good as winning 750 big pots and losing 250 big pots.
Matt
I agree with you that most of his decision was based on my chip count. Like I said it was a 4-8 game that went short handed and we played PL (overs) when it got down to those who agreed. This was early into the overs game and people were beginning to buy more chips. Obviously I should have too...
One thing that differed from PL was pre-flop raising because if the limit guys were in it was just a $4 raise. As far as the posts about pot sizes won and lost I have learned not to get greedy. When dealt premium hands in NL or PL I disagree that you want big pots, often times you want your aces to take it down after the flop, just so you don't get drawn out on. That's usually when my game deteriorates when I get a great hand cracked b/c I didn't want to win just what was in the pot.
Check the flop give a free card or call if he bets. His 4 flush was good on the flop but his odds just got cut in half to make it by the river and he will be more likely to laydown for a pot-size bet...
I'm still figuring this out.. I think at the heart of the game is learning to play big draws against big hands and how aggressively to do so. That's what almost every huge pot consists of.
You did all you could. Bet the flop, if you are raised, move all-in. Bad result, right play.
In the cardroom where I play, they have a pot-limit stud game twice a week. Ante $2, and $5 bring-in; Nine players total, and $100 minimum buy-in. I have played in this game 6 or 7 times since it started. I usually sit down with $600. The last time I played I lost $1,500, but I am still about $200 ahead of the game overall. This last was my biggest loss, and my biggest win was $1,400. A nice win in this game seems to be in the range of $2,000 - $4,000.
I have a limited bankroll, and the last loss at pot limit, plus a couple of losses at limit hold'em has reduced my bankroll from a little over $7,000 to about $5,000.
My question is whether or not I should play the pot-limit again in an attempt to rebuild my bankroll, or am I better off playing limit poker ($10-20 stud or hold'em, sometimes $20-40 HE). If I play pot-limit I will sit down with $600, and if I lose that, will put another $1,000 on the table before I give it up. Therefore, I will be risking approximately 1/3 of my bankroll in one game, with the expectation of a maximum possible win of ~ $3,000.
I should also say that I feel that I am much better at stud than hold'em, and I am fairly good at reading hands/people, which has helped me at pot limit.
Also, one problem with the pot-limit stud game is that you get sucked out on a lot. The game fills up with all of the gamblers in the room, and usually 2 or 3 good players. A lot of gamblers is of course a good thing, but can create large fluctuations in your stack when they go all-in and then hit that gutshot on the river against your two-pair.
All comments welcome.
If losing your bankroll would be some kind of disaster, don't play this game. If you can lose your bankroll and start over anyway, go for it. Playing this game with a bankroll of 5000 is risky at best. Three bad sessions in a row will wipe you out. So don't play it anymore if you don't want to jeapordize your bankroll.
However, this game sounds extremely good. You may want to "take a shot" with this game and try to get your bankroll up to 20k or 30k if you go on a nice extended run.
It depends on your priorities. But if a "nice win" as you put it can be 2k to 4k, then a big loss will be around the same. Your bankroll is big enough to handle only TWO of those. In other words, you don't have NEARLY the bankroll required to avoid going broke in the long run.
natedogg
Bruce,
This game is dangerous. The antes and bring in are far too big for what they are trying to create. The buy in for this game should be at least 1500 (although many will disagree). What I have found is if you are getting action in this game it is never with a big edge. Most the money goes in on fourth street there are still many cards that can take your hand down. This game is a big gamble. I don't believe that the game will last long; furthermore, it seems like every time I have been in the stud game the 20/40 HE looks extremely profitable. BTW--if you go an hour w/out a hand, or bluff opportunity(figuring 24 hands/hour) you will loose $79 (don't forget the $8 drop/half). Eric
Thanks natedogg and knisch!,
I do feel that I have an edge in that game due to my skill at playing stud, but the game is somewhat of a gamble and I don't want to risk my bankroll at this point. I probably will try it again once my bankroll has recovered somewhat.
What do you think a person's bankroll should be in order to consider playing this game on a regular basis (2 days a week)?
25k, IF you are strongly averse to going broke. MUCH less if you can handle going broke.
natedogg
if you are a good player (in pot - you dont chase and you get it more or less right when to fold/call/raise on the later streets) this game is easier to play (than limit) and has a great win rate/standard deviation relationship. against average players you will win at around the $50-60 per hour rate (more against bad players) but you will need nowhere near the bankroll of a similiar size limit game (say from 20-40 to 30-60). you need $15000 to play the limit game, this pot game about 6000 -7000. because the ante is insignificant compared to the size of the pots, because you can sit and wait, because you can knock out the chasers, because the hands develop more headsup or threehanded and because it is easier to "read" pot limit and make good folds.
as for gamblers, in this game they are a vein of gold. chasing is suicide and their lucky hits or streaks never make up for the amount they dump in on the nowhere odds they get for their draws in the long run (assuming they are returning regulars)
I'm sure you read my earlier post where I stated that I usually sat down with $600, and if I lost that I would put another $1,000 on the table before calling it quits. I figure that if I lose $600, I must put at least another $600 on the table to have a chance of doubling up and recouping my loss in one hand.
Two other good players who are regulars in the game are sitting down with $1,000 each to start.
How much would you sit down with in the game described? If my bankroll were $7,000, what is the maximum I should risk in one game?
Thanks in advance.
Bruce K,
Why not just shoot the $600 and then play limit. This way you have the best of both worlds your not risking a big hit on your bankroll at PLS and you can play limit with a normal amount and maybe get it back and play PLS again with the same $600. I wouldn't risk my bankroll for one game, but I would take a shot with $600 several times and try to build on that. Have two separate BR's one for PLS and the other for Limit games. That PLS game sounds too tasty to give up on, but not good enuf to go broke on. Just some ideas to play around with, but going in with a plan helps me to define my parameters on the game I'm playing and not to over extend my playing time, because I think it's a great game when it isn't my day and I should call it quits.
paul
Paul,
Thanks for your comments. That's pretty much what I did when I first started playing the game - only risk a few hundred, so if I lost I could still get it back at a limit game. The reason I got away from that was because even if you drop your first buy-in, you can still get it back in one hand, and I had that happen to me. Of course, it doesn't always work, 'cause the cards don't always cooperate.
The pot limit is a great game, and I think I can do well in it, but to play that game on a short bankroll, the wisest course I think is the one you have suggested.
Bruce K
if your bankroll is fixed at 7000 the game is too big for anyone. because if you should lose like half you are near extiction from the poker world. if your bankroll can be replendished from work or other than you have plenty if you play well and very tight. i sense you dont know how to play two pair in this game. and your two pair should be acesup.
Thanks for your response Ray,
I will play small and medium pairs to start if I have a high side card, the pair is in the hole, all my cards are live, and can get in cheap. In this situation I am hoping to make hidden trips. If I make two small pair instead, and all my cards are still live, I will continue to play, hoping to boat-up. My continued play depends of course on the board, and how much action I am facing.
Large split pairs (A's, K's, Q's) I will push hard as long as I am the highest card on board to start. If someone catches an overcard to my pair and comes out firing, then I have to consider the player - whether he is capable of making a move in this spot, and whether or not I have other outs (straight or flush draw). If they check the overcard, then I check along if I think I might get check-raised; otherwise I will bet. If I make two-pair smaller than Aces up, I will play them if I think they are good.
How would you play two-pair in this game Ray?
Thanks in advance
with increasing sized bets those smaller pairs are not worth taking a card off with very often. what happens is that when you get the action needed to overcome all you spent trying to hit something, it is action that is tough. and against the tough action you need bigger hands. small pairs dont develop into big hands often without hitting twice perfect.
I have not played this game since i was in grad school in England and am curious as to where they are spreading this game? regards, jared
The game is spread at Harrah's in East Chicago, IN, on Monday and Thursday. Game starts at 7:00 pm. Note that Harrah's is a riverboat, and they have boarding times - every two hours on the odd hours. If you want more information, you can call the poker room (219-378-3558).
Bruce K
Here is a $5-$5 blinds pot-limit Hold'em hand I saw (I didn't participate in the hand):
UTG limps in for $5, as does the button, both blinds check - pot size $20
Flop: A-8-5 rainbow Blinds check, UTG bets $10, button calls, 1st blind calls, 2nd blind folds - pot size $50
Turn: A-8-5-2 still rainbow Blind checks, UTG bets $50, button raises $100, blind raises another $250, UTG immediately calls $350, button thinks for 30 seconds and calls $250 - pot size $1450
River: A-8-5-2-J no flush possible Blind goes all-in for about $500 (slightly less), UTG calls immediately, button thinks for 2 minutes while mumbling that he has to be beat, then calls saying he is donating - pot size almost $3K.
Just for fun, anyone want to guess what the 3 players had?
Blind 34 for a wheel, UTG AA, button 88.
Lot of discussion about this one on the table afterwards.
.
Dont you just love those players that "just gotta see 'em"?
I would say the blind has 43, UTG has a set of A's and button has 2 pair. It could very well be that the button has A's and the UTG has a lower set or 2 pair as well.
Derrick
Nice hand. Let's discuss who misplayed this hand the worst (or who played it the best). The obvious best player award goes to the blind. He was able to make a nominal $10 call for his gut shot with essentially no risk of a raise behind him. Even though he wasn't quite getting the pot odds to warrant the call at the time, the implied odds were enormous with no flush draw on the board and an obvious slow-play in the works by the UTG. Also, he bet the hell out of it when it hit and still got ultimate action. Very nice play by the blind with 34. As for UTG, he made a mistake on every street. You could argue that just calling UTG preflop is viable, if the table is such that you could expect a raise behind you, otherwise, at least some sort of raise is necessary to avoid the exact disaster that occured with the 3-4. The underbet on the flop is horrible. Calling two raises on 4th street makes no sense (either pop it again or make a read, for crying out loud and fold). The river was a fiasco for all players except the blind. So, I would say that the UTG could have won the hand and got paid off nicely by the button by simply betting his hand on the flop. The button was dead from the beginning, but could have saved himself several hundred dollars by simply considering for a second what his opponents might be doing. Thanks for the story. -Craig H
The big boys were playing a little $10,000/$20,000 limit hold 'em last week when I was at Bellagio. I heard a recreational player dropped over $6 million.
I figure since I rolled over the 8/16 game all week, I am ready to move up on my next trip to Vegas. Is a 1,250 times increase in limits too large of a jump? I was winning like 3-4 big bets an hour over about 25 hours of play....
I think that you make have to slightly lower your expected win rate to maybe only 2-3 big bets an hour for a game like that. Even at that rate you should win 1 million plus in no time. Don't let the 8 world champs at the table scare you Scott. If you need someone to float you the $500,000 buy in, just drop me a line.
Don't be scared either that besides being champs, some of them might be playing on the same bankroll.
you can always just take a shot.
if you get hurt too bad you can always just move back down.
brad
yeah, don't let your ego get in the way of your results. there's no shame in dropping down to 7500/15000 or even 5000/10000 if you're running bad.
I hope you get a good hand on your big blind.
I wouldn't mind strolling up with a stack of reds and seeing the reaction I get.
I think if you get stuck, you may want to move up in limit to try to get back to even faster
you only have to hit megabucks once to get out of a 6000000 stuck.
in a game this big, what kind of currency do they use? I would imagine the participants would try to avoid tax reporting requirements if possible, but that seems like a heck of a lot of cash to be on one table. do they have some sort of exemption from the ten grand a day transaction rule? do they suck it up and let the IRS know how big they're gambling? Do they use cash and hope the table is sturdy enough? Do they bring their own chips (play with your own chips and there's no transaction, per se)? Anyone know?
They use 5K chips.
Doyle once wrote that Johnny Moss told him to always pay taxes, and that he's paid "a lot of taxes."
It is kind of interesting your posted message. Interesting for we, the souls that are curious. Someone at the last table I was sitting refered to another biggy that was played with limits twice as much. That one was in Florida.
Phil Hellmuth wrote on his website that they were playing $20k/$40k at the Bellagio recently, but I didn't see it. Which is good because that's too rich for my blood -- $10,000/$20,000 is my limit.
Scott,
Me and my roomate were playing 8/16 all week and were curious as to who you were or at least what you looked like. The play was pretty solid and I really didn't notice anyone dominating the action besides my roomate and one older gentleman with sunglasses. Just Curious.
Jim
Light brown hair, 30ish, six feet tall, poor loser. I did not dominate the whole time but I did win quite a bit overall.
I have different hair color, and am older and taller than you.
.. they're both purple and wrinkly, except for the tiger.
For the high limit games make sure you bring along at least 1 of the following: 1)hidden camera and ear piece reciever connected to van in car-park 2)high-tech card marking substance along with contact lenses to see marks 3)enough money or gifts to bribe mechanic dealer
If you expect to try and play with just pokerr skill you will be at a distinct technological dis-advantage. Play $50000 a spin on the BIG Wheel, you will lose less.
Anon,
It seems that we are both using the same handle. Hmmm. That makes me upset, but I don't know what to say about it.
-Anon
Me too, there could be some confusion.
anon
How do they make sure they're dealt better cards at those limits? I mean, you wouldn't want to pay that BB and get 94o, as usual, would you?
It's important for the casino to generate X number of interesting-game stories per hour to justify the logistical hassle involved with those sums of money. So they play with a pinochle deck.
I got talked into going last night and once again there I was playing no limit hold'em at a table with only one or two soft spots and mostly filled up with the best damn no limit players around. What am I thinking?
I won $3 with which I tipped the dealer before cashing out. Woohoo!
You gotta wonder what's going on when the no limit professionals call you up personally and invite you to the game! Ha ha! Actually, it doesn't take too much thought.
Anyway, here's a couple hands I (mis?)played.
I have 33 and limp in after a couple limpers. I end up with last position in a four handed pot.
Flop is 59T.
All check. Turn is a J. First two players check. The third player bets $40 (about the pot size). I figure there's a 50/50 chance he has only a Q. I call. I know that both players behind me won't call without something. Unfortunately one player overcalls. So I'm done with this hand. Or so I think.
The river comes a 3, no flush. I can now only lose to a bigger set or Q8 or QJ.
The turn bettor bets $75. What do I do?
Next hand:
I raise one limper and make it $65 with QQ. The cutoff moves all-in for another $235. All fold to me. The problem with this situation is that I've played with this guy before and I've NEVER seen him put money into the pot without a big big hand. I've played about three sessions with him and each time he was a very cautious, conservative, ABC type player. What do I do?
Next hand:
I have Q9s in middle position. It's been killed by the button so it's 20 to go. I limp in after one limper. Big blind calls, button calls. Four handed. Flop is J98 with two diamonds. Check check to me. I move all in for about 200.
Yeah yeah, I know I just posted about how I HATE playing a flush draw strong. However, in this instance I had been getting lousy starting hands and missing the flop all night. I was looking like I was a weak-tight little old man. If I bet strong now, I have a very reasonable chance of taking it down. And in this case, I had all the diamonds, any Q, any T, and any 9 all as possible outs if I get called by a jack.
Last hand:
I'm still shortstacked. I have about 240 in front of me. I open for 40 with AKs in mid position. The button calls and the big blind calls.
Luckily for me the button can lay down mediocre hands. Unfortunately the big blind is unpredictable. The flop is a jack high rainbow. The big blind checks to me. I bet 100 of my 200 left into the $120 pot.
I'll post results of these hands later.
natedogg
My comments:
Hand 1: fold the 3-3 on the flop. It is too expensive to go take one off. You didn't post your stack size, but I would guess around $200. If that is the case you called a 1/4 of your stack with an underpair to the board. On the river I would call.
Hand 2: I would have bet less preflop say $30 which would be about a pot sized bet. When a tight player like that comes over the top I would fold. Even AK is even money against your hand. This is through experience. I had a similar situation happen to me (in PL HE), and I pushed it back all-in. The player called my Q's down with K's (she almost folded though).
Hand 3: I would not call preflop with Q-9s for 10% of my stack. I am looking for nut hands. I would rather play AXs, but I would wait until I could get in for the $5. $5 represents only 2.5% of your stack, so you can take some limping risks. On the flop (had I got there), I probably do the same thing. You have a lot of outs against a single opponent like you said. You have to over bet the pot to try and get it heads up.
Hand 4: Did you have a back door flush draw? I would bet about $50 here. Under betting the pot often looks like a trap, and it still gets the field to fold just as often. When someone plays back at you, you can release for a smaller cost.
Just my opinions.
Derrick
hey there Natedogg, I've been playing a little bit of no limit lately myself. Since I wouldn't dare give anyone advice about this game I just have ?'s about the last two hands.
#3 why did you move all in for $200 when there was only $80 bucks in the pot? since your short stacked, probably have the best hand and have a gazillion outs why not check and then try and pick off a bluff? I usually try and make more bets and call fewer bets, but in this case with your short stack you are going to call no matter what. I wonder if trying to get more value out of this hand wouldn't be good play.
#4 This seems like a good enough place to go all in for $200. why didn't you?
#3: My hand is weak. I have middle pair with a queen kicker. I want to take the $80 right now. With my short stack, I can do so by pushing in and maybe even getting a weak jack or a stronger nine to fold. Certainly, all draws will fold.
It's true I might extract more value from this hand, but I'm not good enough to do so. In any situation where someone else is putting money into the pot with a board like that, my middle pair turns into just a draw.
#4. I only bet half my stack because if someone comes over the top I can actually get away from it. I have no pair. My half-stack bet looks almost like an enticing kind of bet, so I seriously doubt anyone will push me in without at least a jack. By betting $100, I can represent that I'm pot stuck when I'm really not. They will fold overcards and possible underpairs.
natedogg
#1: I raised the river for $100 and my opponent called me with the second nut, Q8. Ouch.
#2: I folded my QQ. Turns out later he tells me he had 99. Ouch.
#3: All folded and I took it down.
#4. Both opponents folded and I took it down.
natedogg
1. Raise to $200 at the river.
2. Throw QQ away.
3. If your willing to go all the way, which is
probably worth it with this flop, your bet
makes sense.
4. Check and take a free turn card.
Hand 1: I reraise all in. I doubt the turn bettor has more than 2 pair, and in his eyes, the 3 on the river looks like the brick of all time. After he calls, I prepare my answer to the question "HOW THE HELL DID YOU GET THERE?? YOU ARE AN IDIOT"
Hand 2: You say the player is cautious and conservative. I'd like to know more about him before I made my decision; most specifically, what hands have you seen him go all in with previously (if you've seen him get called)? And do you have him covered? I'm about 50-50 on calling/folding as his all in bet is hard to interpret for me; it either says "Im happy with the dead money in the pot" or "Don't call me! Im on a steal"
Hand 3: I wouldn't count a Q as an out, as it would make the board 89JQ. Even a 9 is shaky as someone may already have a straight. I like the all in move, however.
Hand 4: Not sure about your decision preflop; you raised to 65 with QQ in an earlier hand. Now you raise to 40. I don't know everything about no limit, but I'd probably prefer to keep my preflop raising at a constant level to prevent people from reading the strength of my hand. I'd probably bet about half the pot here; less risk with the same chance of reward.
David "Now off to read the results"
Hi Nate,
Let me know when you figure it all out. I want a full briefing! (I've been learning $200-400 at a time.)
For the first hand (both the call and your raise) and the QQ hand: you don't have to play and you don't have to pick off every bluff. If you aren't a great reader (I for one ain't), you're very much at risk.
First hand: Fold on the turn. Cede the right of first bluff. On the river you're thinking percentage of time he'd call with a lesser hand vs. times he has you beat. Without good intel, it's a high variance play, and it might have cost me more than my current stacks if I lost all-in and got in a hurry.
Second hand: QQ is the black death. If the opponent was Hopper, KK is the black death. Make like origami.
Third hand: Ni han!
Fourth hand: Depending on my opponents' reading skills and looseness (and my current degree of stupidity), I'd pass, bet $80 or push all-in. Betting $80 or $100 looks pretty weak though, especially if they know you know not to goof around when short-stakced. If you HAD AJ or AA-QQ, would you ever hesitate to push all-in here? Abraham or Sam B. or Alex might well pick you off with nothing if you bet $80-100.
Remember, I want that briefing!
Why Nate gets invitations by phone:
1) That's what hosts do in games like that in places like that. They call people. Then they lose their phone list and become thankful that I suggested keeping a copy on my hard drive. Oh, would I be talking about Alex? lol
2) It doesn't matter how well you play, it's how well you play with others.
Tommy
Just for curiosity, some question about monster games.
1- How long this games are spread? 3 hours, 10 hours, a day, some days?
2- Could a winning player abandon the game without falling in the risk of being killed? :-)
3- Are these great games shorthanded (3-4 players) or sometimes there's a almost full table?
4- An incredible loose-aggressive player (with little knowledge of the game) and armed with a huge bankroll can beat the game?
5- Is it likely that a game like this (10K-20K or over) is land of colluders?
6- The most important thing playing these high games is the blinds defence?
Thanks is someone answers me.
Marco
it's not my everyday-limit ( usualy 30-60) i hold 8-8 ..two limpers to me ... i call and both blinds play... flop A-7-3 rainbow no bet to me .. should i bet here ? i check .. turn is 2h making it two hearts on the board.. SB checks BB bets two players fold.. i call ( raise?) SB raises... BB and i call river 7c not bet to me ... showdown SB 6-7 takes the pot with full 7...
I don't play this limit but...
I think you should bet the flop. The limpers probably don't have Aces since they limped pre-flop and then checked. If one of them limped in with something like A9s you would expect them to bet this flop because no preflop raise behind them means no one else has a big Ace. I think the blinds would do the same with A-baby.
This said, I tend to raise with 88 pre-flop. Had you done this you would certainly have picked up the pot on the flop.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
The limit isn't very important in taht hand . You should have bet the position . To chase a hand like 99 or TT , and to don't give a free card to a hand like KJ . After your bet , look what kind of player call you . I you are called by a good player your dead most of the time , he will have 77 slowplayed or a hand like AXsuited , where X is 9 or less . On the turn , bet if it's checked to you what ever is the turn . If it's bet before you on the turn ,fold ( except if the turn is an 8 obiously ) . On the river again , fold if it's bet to you , and check if it's check yo you , except if there only opponent still with you and is very ( very! ) weak and able to make terrible call .
Pre-flop, a raise is probably better than a call.
Mroe importantly, it is important to bet your hand on the flop. Your hand is vulnerable as you would not want to see a K,Q,J,T or 9 come on the turn. Since you hadn't raised pre-flop, you might even get a 7 to fold since the pot is still small.
Once sb raised and BB called on the turn, I would have souped.
What did sb have? You say he showed 6-7 to make "full 7." There's no 6 on the board.
Preflop, I like limping with medium pocket pairs like eights especially after other players have limped in ahead of me. I think you need pocket tens or better, AK, AQ, or AJ suited to raise.
On the flop, when all four opponents check to you, you must bet your good second pair (a pocket pair higher than middle pair but lower than top pair). The lack of flop betting means that your hand may well be good and you must protect it with a bet. There are a ton of cards that can come off on the turn that kill you (that is any card nine through king). You cannot afford to hand out free cards to four opponents.
On the turn, I would raise when a blank hits. The big blind could be trying to just buy the pot given the lack of betting on the previous round or he may be semi-bluffing a heart flush draw. The other advantage to raising is that you can get a cheap showdown at the river usually and don't have to worry about being bluffed out.
Having just called on the turn, you are in a real quandary when the small blind now check-raises on the expensive street. I would probably fold at this point figuring I was playing anywhere from two to eight outs depending upon whether he has a set or two pair.
"On the flop, when all four opponents check to you, you must bet your good second pair (a pocket pair higher than middle pair but lower than top pair). The lack of flop betting means that your hand may well be good and you must protect it with a bet. There are a ton of cards that can come off on the turn that kill you (that is any card nine through king). You cannot afford to hand out free cards to four opponents."
I agree that this is good advice for a pair of eights. But what if you had two kings or two queens. Now a check won't be as dangerous, and against aggressive players who will automatically bet the turn if no one bets the flop you may have a better play.
Agreed but the play of the hand might have been entirely different since you would have raised preflop with pocket kings or queens. Now on the flop, when players check to you, you cannot as safely assume that no one has an ace since they may be just "checking to the raiser". If you check on the flop after having raised preflop on an ace-high board, then a turn bet has a greater likelihood of coming from an ace than otherwise. But play at the $80-$160 level may have its own set of rules.
Preflop, I like limping with medium pocket pairs like eights especially after other players have limped in ahead of me. I think you need pocket tens or better, AK, AQ, or AJ suited to raise.
How can you play 80-160 with so little hand balance? The above strategy may work well (perhaps not optimally, but well enough) in a game where players are constantly in flux and don't pay much attention anyway, but I think your range of raising hands is too small here. (The exception would be if you limp after limpers with the above hands as well.) Otherwise, I think after a while you will have great trouble with your regular opponents.
The limit does matter.
If you want (you don't have to) you can, in fact, raise sometimes with this hand instead of limping because (A) at this limit players (more in LV than LA)will lay down Ax, KQ etc behind you and that protects against overcards as well as giving you position. Also (B) you have to mix it up at this level.
Regarding the flop, you must bet if you have position for all the reasons the other posters said. You must check with poor position.
If called, you are done with it with the possible exception of a card lower than your eight coming on the turn. No free cards allowed for gut shots and low pairs.
In your opinion, is it more effective to throw cards at the dealer in higher limits than in lower limits?
:o)
(welcome to 2+2)
n/t
"The limit does matter. If you want (you don't have to) you can, in fact, raise sometimes with this hand instead of limping because (A) at this limit players (more in LV than LA)will lay down Ax, KQ etc behind you and that protects against overcards as well as giving you position. Also (B) you have to mix it up at this level."
Another reason is that $80-$160 games generally play tighter. Normally, at a lower limit you would just call with this hand since it's main value would be to flop a set. (Note that if you raise other players tend to come anyway.) But in a high limit game, where the play is often tighter, this may not be the case.
First time in live no limit, i have played about 10 tourneys.
5-10 blinds, $500 buy-in. Fairly tight game most pots are either 2-3 limpers or a raise to 50 gets it heads up. I have $400, everyone else has 400-1000. UTG(900)limps, one other limper, and I limp with 64s. Button(900)limps and both blinds call.
Flop is T64, rainbow. UTG bets 40,fold to me and I make it $115. Button calls, Blinds fold and UTG goes all-in for ~900. I call.
All comments welcome.
Danny
Results later
I don't fault your call, which I assume is made on your read of UTG. Would he try for the check raise UTG before the flop with a big pair? Does he have A10? Does his all-in bet preclude him from having a set?
What interests me is what the button does after your call. If he calls as well, I sense there may be trouble in river city.
if the button was a good player you could throw your hand away. for him to call a bet and raise you have little win unless he had 5,7. the thing to think about here is that you called with a 6,4 with only 40 big blind bets in front of y0u. its hard to get alot of value with so little to win and needing such a big flop.
I am reminded of the story---Johnny Moss was once asked "what is the best way to play bottom two pair?"----to which he replied " I would not know, I never play them." good luck, Jim
I wouldn't call after the button calls. You may have caught utg with two aces, but the button call is bad knews.
UTG had KK. Knowing that player, an overpair was way more likely than TT or AT, so I liked my chances against him.
The button had what Ray predicted:7-5. He had showed me or showed down many small connectors from late position, so his flat call of my bet sort of indicated 'draw' and not TT.
Thanks for your input.
Danny
You have no choice but to call the raise with bottom two pair. The interesting thing is if the hand was checked to you, you would check it back either hoping the button bets or someone tries a bluff on the turn. UTG probably has an overpair, so he does have outs to beat you.
UTG probably has an overpair, Aces or Kings. I suspect that with Queens or Jacks he would probably raise pre-flop. The problem that I have with this hand is that you have bottom two pair. That often becomes counterfeited by the river, usually by another ten or runner runner. The odds are on your side, so it's a good bet in a live game where you can just pull out more cash, but be very careful of going all-in in a tournament with bottom two.
Why does everyone credit UTG with an overpair instead of TT? He bet the flop and was raised. The raiser said he could beat a pair of tens. Is KK beating many hands in this scenario? Unless UTG is known to be very aggressive, I expect him to have a set.
Fat-Charlie
Its a small stakes no limit game with blinds of $2 and $5.
I'm in late-middle position, there are two limpers I limp, the button calls, the small blind calls and the big blind checks. I have 7/8 offsuit.
The flop comes 5/6/9 rainbow.
Its checked around to me. What should I do?
I'll post the results later
thanks in advance
Interesting NL hand. Some of it depends on how deep everyone is, but I would check. My goal would be to either let someone with trips become convinced they have the best hand, or let two overcards catch up on the turn. There are very few holdings the button would check with, I think, so I would imagine you'll get a bet out of him/her. It's also likely that you may get a caller in front of you, which would be nice. If the button bet and it was raised in front of you, I would change plans and reraise for healthy amount. I like this play because I've found that if you check/raise someone who has check/raised in front of you... they often won't give you credit for the hand you have. It's like they're so impressed with their own play that they lose sight of the possibility that they're beat. So if you're lucky enough to run into pocket nines from one of the early callers, you're going to double through (unless they suck out, of course). There's a million ways to play this hand, but I think the key is to let someone play at you initially.
CH
n/t
Everyone had $300 to $400
There is $35 in the pot preflop if I am correct. I would bet $15 to $35. You need more money in the pot to get someone committed. Also, when you flop the nuts, you want someone chasing you.
Derrick
(We need to know stack sizes)
1. No free card. How are you going to feel when a 9,8,7,6 or 5 hits? What about a T, J or Q that gives a flush draw? You'll end up having to bet big on the turn, minimizing your gain or potentially losing your stack.
2. If SB or BB plans to check-raise, someone's got to give the opportunity. All you have behind you is the button.
3. You'll look like you're stealing.
Well, it was checked to me and I bet $30 and everyone folded. I guess most hands would have had to hit runner, runner to beat me, so I should have given a free card.
My bad.
Thanks for the replies
Jeff, do you think if you checked the button would have considered making a play?
JEFF, there is a philosophy I use when i play the same way you did. I'd rather win a thousand small pots then lose a big one because I let them in.
use your position and strengths to your advantage.