![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
Greetings:
Alright, this message is a partial venting combined with strategic possiblities. You know the story, the hand gets called on the river with you and two others, etc. For argument sake, your on the button so both players have been acting before you the whole hand. However, after the bets are tossed in, the kindergarten antics begin; Let's see who doesn't show their cards first and then if beat muck the cards. Now, I'm the type who when that final bet is made will immediately flip my cards up, mostly the reason being I expect to win the pot and what the damn thing pushed to me. And yet at the same time, it sort of torks me that I'm not getting the information (aka, how the player played the hand with those starting cards) I should rightfully have automatically if it wasn't for the "kindergarten not showing your hand" antics.
So here's the question: If I have position on someone, do the rules specifically state that they must show their hand before you (which in my opinion this is the way it should be)? Moreover, and I know I have the right to see any cards that are from a called hand on the end, but do you think it's worth going the extra mile by requesting to see the cards at the expense of let's say embarrassing/shaming the opponent? And in doing so, how do you think it affects your presence in the game?
Thanks,
JPN
Here are the ETHICS (bad word?) I adhere to...
1. If I bet the river and get called, I show my hand first, regardless of position. I would expect the other players to show in order, if they are not mucking.
2. If the river is checked around, the hands should be shown in order, starting from UTG.
There's nothing worse than a player who bets the river...gets called...then won't show his cards first at the showdown. If you're so embarrassed by your trash...than MUCK IT!
I read it, and was not crazy about it.
Just my honest opinion.
Good Luck
Howard
I was underwhelmed by this elaboration of the obvious.
I get on the list and the first game I get into is fairly loose BTF but extremely passive after. Most pots are fairly small since few people will bet or raise without a pretty good hand. This game needs a maniac to spice it up! But for now, an aggressive style will probably win the chips since many of the players will fold fairly easily….
I get 5d2d in the big blind. 3 limp and no raise, I check.
Flop is A Q Q with one diamond. I check, all check.
Turn is 7d. No one looks very happy with that card, so I bet out. I get called by the button only.
River is the 6c. I watch the button for signs of life. None seen, but I cannot be completely sure she will fold. I bet to try and steal the pot.
Questions:
how many people feel the need to follow through with a bet on the river when they semi-bluff the turn and then a blank falls on the river?
My feeling is that it depends on the opponent, most of the time I will bet if I think there is a chance they will fold. But if it’s a calling station, I will not bet again.
How many would have made this semi-bluff on the turn? Do you think this is a situation where it is advantageous to act first?
Dave,
Your thinking is sound, but why give up on the river against a calling station? Any tight passive player who calls your turn bet is likely to have a pair, and call your river bet too. The calling station may take one off on the turn with nothing, or maybe a JT type hand, and still have nothing to call you with on the river. I'll bet the river here more often if my opponent is a calling station, because I'm not afraid of his call on the turn. Even the most habitual callers will usually give up with no pair on the river.
Louie, I like your comment about checking good hands on the flop. I seem to have misplaced that play, so thanks for pointing it out to me again.
B$
A SB call I'm having trouble with.
You are in the small blind with AJs. There is a raise by a loose player, and a cold call by a loose player.
Do you (multiple answers acceptable):
a) call
b) fold
c) call because the cold caller has increased the size of the pot.
d) fold because the cold caller likely has something as good or better than AJs.
e) decide based on the size of the small blind (1/2 vs 1/3 vs 2/3?)
My feeling is that it is worth a call against loose players but a fold against a tight raiser or tight caller.
Any help will be appreciated,
Paul Talbot
Depends. The AJs in the SB should call to see the flop especially against 2 loose players and for 2 bets. It is a 2/3 hand pre flop. That is it has about 65% chance of being the best hand preflop. How many callers are there?
If you do not hit the flop, you'll have a decision which should be fairly easy, check. This will be a good move especially if you have check-raised previously. If they bet and you have nothing (i.e little suited or runner type) you could toss it. However, the A might allow you to see the turn for a single bet, but tosing it is OK.
Rick,
You do a very good job of making your point here. But I have a problem with your thinking about this hand. Not that it is a relatively weak holding given the scenario, with that I agree. I believe that the hand is very playable in mid position with early limpers and the potential for a raise behind. In fact if I know I have an overaggressive player immediately to my left I raise hoping to be reraised. My reasoning is that I most likely have the best hand to that point and my aggressive oppponent will help me get rid of a lot of folks.
Winning at poker is about finding the right situations. In a situation like the one described there is a lot of money already in the pot with prospects of a lot more to follow. I want to be in there fighting for that dough ray me.
A hand like A,J gives me enough potential to take a shot at winning this pot. I beleive that adjusting the play of the hand to the field is the key. Most of the time passively calling and trying to see the flop cheaply is probably right. With the right opponent immediately to your left being aggressive may be correct. But somehow I want to take a shot with a pretty good hand at a big pot.
vince
Vince,
My long time pro friend just dropped by and one point he made is that the quality of the limpers matters a lot with AJo in the middle. If the limpers are weak, then he wants to play with them and will often play it for a raise.
Regards,
Rick
Agreed.
Vince
In another thread, Mason surprised me by writing:
>Just a small point. But if "My last trip to vegas I did not play any offsuit aces less than ATo and I never lost to a better kicker."
You are probably playing a little too conservatively.<
Now, I am not known for being a conservative player, but I absolutely never play less than ATo. Well, maybe A9 or A8 to steal on the button. But those situations are very rare. (yes, I posted the Q3s, but that's probably the only time I've done that this year).
Exactly which AXo hands should be played, why, and when? I just hate the idea that I'm throwing away playable hands.
If you are never beat by a better kicker there are probably times you have folded AT, AJ, AQ when maybe you shouldn't. This does not mean necessarily playing lesser aces. But this is a pretty good error in my book if it is one.
I'm going to take a little heat on this one, but I misread the original post and thought he only said AT.
With that being said I would play A9 offsuit on the button in non-raised pots, especially if short handed. I would raise first in with A9, and even A8 if I am in very late position and all remaining players are tight. I will call in shorthanded unraised pots out of the small blind with any ace in the $10-$20 structure. (In the $15-$30 structures these calls are automatic. The exception is if the big blind almost always raises.) And you can defend out of the big blind against an obvious steal raise with A9 or A8.
would you steal with A2o on the button if everyone folded to you?
would you call A2 in the big blind if everyone folded, and the button (aggressive player) raised?
Doc,
I would but I agree with Mason AND Abdul that A5 and above is a lot better.
Regards,
Rick
"Is there anything I can do?"
Get a seat next to her in the stud game...
Good answer!!!
Although I hate stud, it may have been worth it.
Ken
I just started playing holdem and I wanted to know what is a good earn rate. Is it 1 BB/hour or 2 BB/hour? What is considered average vs. good?
Sean
If you just started playing 0BB/hour is pretty good. Consider playing in the practice games online until you win consistently and can generally tell what the opponents have.
- Louie
he is so inconsiderate to light up in your face and you worry about him. id do anything that didnt get me thrown out of the joint to get him busted. he deserves nothing less. the bad part of looking at someones hand is not that your are cheating him , is that you are cheating all your other players as you have an advantage against them and they do not know that you can see his hand. if they all know you see his hand and let it go then all is kinda fair. i wont let another player see a hand in a game im in, but ill certainly look if no one cares or i cant stop it. its the dealers job to protect the players not the other players,since few dealers actually do much to protect the players its up to us to have to make the choices.
Ray
my post didn't even begin to tell just how bad this guy's schmealy smoke was in my face. he chain smoked for an entire hour before I finally got a seat change. His cigarette was literally inches from my face on about ten occasions. Despite the fact that I could see his cards, my lungs were worth more to me than the extra value of knowing his cards on every hand. of course as soon as I moved (right next to a grateful non-smoker) this guy got up and moved to the seat next to me again. IMO if you are gonna smoke and be an inconsiderate schmuck about it then you will get no sympathy from me whatsoever. I was actually glad when he busted even though he was a terrible player, because I finally got a chance to breathe again.
dave in cali
I'm newer at this game than most and came upon an interesting concept when reading numerous poker books. The reason I ask is, obviously, I don't know the answer, and it seems to be a situation that arises fairly often in my game.
Let's say I'm holding 2 connectors, early postion (probably BB), and 7 people see the flop for one bet. Flop gives me a gut shot draw. How do I handle this?
1) If player to my right bets, should I raise? Call? Fold? I'm getting 8-1 for an 11-1 shot with 6 players behind me...because of implied odds, I think I should atleast call. I do wonder if there would be any benefit to raising.
2) If checked to me, bet? Go for check-raise? Check call? If there is an A on the board in my game, someone probably has a pair. My instinct says to check and call this player...again due to implied odds.
3) How should I differ my strategy if the flop is 2 suited? Pair on the board?
Now, I understand that all situations are different but I feel I'm at a loss here and would like to know what thought process some of you go through when this happens. Thanks in advance
ZonaCat
You say you're holding two connectors, and your theory should change slightly depending on your exact cards, but this is what I would do.
1) If player to your right bets, I'd call. You may have lowered your odds but I'd wait and see what the other guys are doing, one of them might be playing big, in which case a raise is wasted.
2) If player to your right checks, look at the flop, Aces or Kings can assure you that 3 or 4 of the others have a pair (from initial deal, or with A/K), therefore check, wait and see, and play a check-raise or check-call depending on what happens. A weak flop (e.g. 9-5-2) would probably encourage a small bet, but remember that player to your right has checked with this flop so he probably has something to play with. Judge your bet such that it may force players holding Aces or Kings who were waiting for a good flop to think about folding. Beware of a raise from an opponent as these probably have been dealt a pair to start with, and likely to now have a trip and risk a full house on 4th and river.
3)A pair on the flop and I'd check, then probably fold next time, but see how many others check/fold.
A handy hint here, if the person to your LEFT is playing aggressively, a check is always a strong move (when poss.), he/she might bet to force the rest of the table into a bit of decision making and a bout of folding will follow (especially with a weak flop)
1) With a gutshot; first, do I have the upper end or lower end of the gutshot? As in, say I have 7-8. What has come on the board: 4-5 or 10-J? That makes a difference to me. Generally, I would never call with the lower end, and calling with the higher end would be dubious as well, given my position. I think you are getting better than 11-1 odds of hitting however (2 shots at one of 4 cards..probably closer to 6-1 if you commit to seeing it to the river? I don't put too much stock in the implied odds here; if you have low connectors, the flop is unlikely to have caught too many people, and it wouldn't surprise me to see half the field drop to this bet.
2) If checked to you, by all means check. I don't like chasing gutshots, but if you can do it for free, more power to you.
3) I'm not sure what you mean here; you have a four flush on the board? Check-calling is where I go from there, assuming I think my flush could stand up. You have a pair on the board? If you have low connectors, its unlikely your pair will hold up, or not be outkicked. I would probably call, grudgingly, with top pair, and throw it as soon as any overcard hit the table. If you are asking how you handle these situations when the above happens and you still have a gutshot, I check-fold always.
Chasing gutshots is too risky a way for me to live. Besides, I don't want to take the abuse from the other players at the table on those rare occassions when I do hit.
David
If your gut shot is the higher end and you have two over cards to the board you should definitely raise. If your gut shot is for the nut straight, JT with a board of AKx (non paired board) then you may also want to raise and try for a free card on the turn if you miss. If you have the lower end of the gut shot and there is a good chance that if you make your hand you can still lose you shoud probably fold especially if there may be a lot of action behind you. Suppose for instance you hold 7,8 and the board comes Q,J,T. Your gut shot is almost worthless. This is an extreme example but should illustrate the main thrust of the idea.
Chek-raising with a gut shot is usually a mistake unless you believe it will win the pot for you right there or if it may thin the field if the situation is right.
The answer to 3) is self explanatory. Try it you'll see what I mean.
Vince
first off, if you have a gutshot, you are NOT looking for the pot to get raised, whether by you or anyone else. so if you are early and you expect raises, probably fold now. If there is a flush draw that you don't have any part of, now you are only drawing to three outs so probably fold again.
on your situation #1, yes you are getting 8:1, and with implied odds it is probably better than the needed 10.5:1, but you are out of position and it could get raised. therefore you have to consider your effective odds more so than your immediate pot odds.
situation #2, check-raising is a bad play, why charge yourself extra to draw at a longshot out of position?
3: two suited or paired your gutshot spells lost wages needlessly spent on a futile longshot out of position.
dave in cali
Gut shots vary in value depending on whether (1) They are the nuts if you hit it (2) Someone can make a bigger draw if you hit your card (3) whether you can reasonably win if you snag a pair (4) presense of 2-flushes and pairs.
A great gut shot would be (98) flop [752]. A terrible gut shot would be (98) flop [QTsT]. A middling gut shot would be (97) flop [KT6]; noting that if you snag an 8 someone can easily make or have a bigger draw.
You're thoughts about implied odds are good and you should generally draw to you better gut shots. Consider betting those if you will wish you had bet if everybody checks. Raising generally reduces your implied odds.
- Louie
Is it a good idea to advertise bluffs at low limits?
Playing PP $2-4 and in the BB with 2-7o. Three limpers. Flop comes A-9-3. I meant to hit check (with a fold of course to any bet) but hit bet instead. I immediately went oh s$@t! However, everyone folded. I then came up with a spontaneous idea. I exposed my cards and posted a message saying – god do I love to do that! My reasoning:
1) People will label me a fish 2) Since I play very tight my good hands will get called more 3)I hardy bluff on PP $2-4 so future bluffs wouldn’t be ruined 4)I wanted to put people on tilt.
My only fear was that I didn’t want people to start playing better against me.
Didn’t get to analyze effect because wife soon decided I had more important things to do than play HE online (clearly her judgement was off).
Was this a good idea? Since I also play live often, I am curious as whether this type of insult would be proper decorum.
No. You just made a play that picked up several bets. By advertising it will be much more difficult to do it again.
However, my feeling is that play never (or almost never) works in 2-4 and I only did it by mistake.
Is it therefore a bad idea if I never plan on making that play again?
You don´t have to make it to get called in low limit. Betting/raising sometimes when you´ve got a good draw, or betting/raising middle and bottom pair is enough advertising.
First, sine it worked, it may work more than you realize at that limit. Or, while it may not normally work at that limit, since it worked it may have something to do with this particular combination of players, so again you don't want to expose it. Another thing to keep in mind is that even if everyone does not fold, your bet with more cards to come might increase your chances of winning, and that in itself may be worth it.
Its probably better if you attempt another bluff and wait until you get caught. But even if you are SURE this was an extremely rare anomoly and you have NO intention of doing it again, few players will be fooled by the fact that you showed it and will suspect you are in fact "advertising".
My Mom would argue is rude and un-gentlemanly. Also, the opponents will generally feel this way, put them in a less-gambling mood, which usually (but not always) makes them play more selectively and therefore better. They also may want to take a few uncharacterisic shots at YOU which is usually (but not always) not good for you.
I believe the aphorism "Only a monkey shows his arse" applies well here.
I suspect you are winning more pots w/o a show down than you realizing (i.e. betting a good hand and getting no calls). Perhaps you should keep track of it.
- Louie
The only time I feel tempted is when my bluff is due to machanical error.
For instance I get a free play in the big blind flop two undercards with no draw go to hit the fold button but somhow hit the raise buttong. Everyone folds :{)}. Its now tempting to show the cards, as its showing something I would 'never' do so can only confuse the opponsition. The problme is that it might confuse the opponents to do the right thing :{(}
If I am interpreting Mason correctly, I believed his logic is flawed. He seems to be saying that a tight image is almost always better than a loose one. At the low limits, a tight image is the worse than a loose one. That is because people want to call at this limit and you can't steal the occassional pot with a tight image (most of the players don't recognize a tight player or realize how tight he is). The weak players remember the gregarious, boisterous player who seems loose and to be playing a lot of hands. You make extra bets with this image. Of course as you increase in limits say to 20-40, a tight image is much much better. Comments.
If people aren't totally clueless, then your image actually CAN win you the occasional small pot. But you have to choose your spots carefully.
If people are absolutely totally clueless, then your image is irrelevant for the most part.
Although I have gotten into trouble a couple of times where people started taking shots at me because I was tight and because I was losing at the time ("No one else would fold, but maybe he would.").
David
How do you get a loose image while actually playing tight?
David
I don't think that a player showing his bluff cards is labelled like a fish. If I find this type of player in my table, I generally give him some credit to be a decent player.
When my bets and raises are getting too much respect I'll show some trash. Seems like after a few hours of solid play you lose money because no one wants to tangle with you. The guy to your left folds hands he would normally play simply because you are in the pot. You can't raise AA, AK, KK because everyone will fold. Don't make a habit of showing bluffs. Use this play sparingly as a tool to increase EV.
Just thought I would share a brief look at some online hands I have. These are not statistically significant, and are not meant to prove anything. These are limit hold'em games.
In the last 800* hands(this is roughly 26 hours in live play at 30 hands an hour) I have been dealt, the following was observed:
AA: twice, undefeated.
KK: six times, 4/6.
QQ: six times, 2/6.
JJ: twice, undefeated.
AKs: four times, also undefeated.
So in total I held 20 group one hands, that went a combined 14/20, showing a profit of 51 big bets.
These 800 hands were consecutive and not hand picked. Some of these hands I was sitting out and not actually dealt in but this was done manually and I was too lazy to do more.
In each case except three times I put the last raise in preflop. (Twice I called three cold with QQ and once I just called a steal raise heads up in the big blind with JJ).
I saw the river 18 out of the 20 times. Both the times when I did not see the river was with the queens that called three cold and in both cases both an ace and a kind fell with action. In both cases I put no money in on the flop and was correct in both cases that I was beaten.
Two of my losses were to J6 offsuit (that called a raise cold) and to A7 offsuit (that cold two cold in the big blind and was out against my queens and an AK too. The force was with him).
Much of the money here was won just playing absolutely straightforwardly.
In four of the six losses I had late position.
Dear twoplustwo posters, any ideas on short qualitative studies that could be done using online records? I am not interested in big statistically studies. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Notes: just prior to this brief study I had pocket aces taken down by pocket queens..this is not in the study. The 800 hands represent hands I was at the table not necessarily dealt in although I was in the vast majority.
I don't think you've done anything here other than reveal the obvious. Group 1 hands are damn good. You shouldn't be surprised they are making a nice profit, nor can you probably learn much from showing so.
I think a much more valuable exercise would be to record and analyze how you play, say, group 4-6 hands. I would like to do this myself. Playing Group 1 hands can be pretty straight forward. You (and I and the rest of us) should be more interested inthose hands that can be problems.
I'd love to compile stats like TTH does for starting hands. If you do this you will have a nice database that you can learn from. Forget the Group 1 hands. You win with them, you will keep winning with them. Concentrate on the tricky hands.
Paul Talbot
"Some of these hands I was sitting out..."
So are these hands you were dealt or not?? I'm confused. If not, you only know about the hands that you received or that actually were shown down, so it definitely skews your results.
MM has written:
>>So what makes [CENSORED] so good? It is the fact that he plays his hands extremely well after the .>flop. I could give some examples of plays that I have seen from him, which virtually no one else makes >>at that level, but I don't think it is fair to [CENSORED] to expose some of his tricks.
You know we can’t let this one fade away.
Are you saying that you believe there exists a bag of tricks that will allow, say, a break even player at a 10/20 Hold’em game to be a significant winner without knowing the reason for making his trick plays?
If that’s what you’re saying, I agree with you.
Comments welcome.
You need to rewrite your post since I did identify the player in question. As for the bag of tricks, they generally have something to do with giving up ev on an early round to gain it back and then some on a later round. Many of these plays are player dependent.
Here's an example. Suppose you are heads-up against a highly aggressive player and have flopped a reasonably strong hand or perhaps make this hand on fourth street. The correct play might be to check here because you can be very sure that the highly aggressive player will fire on the next round no matter what his hand is.
Here is an example. You limp in up front with JTs. Only you and the blind play. The flop comes T72. The blind checks. You should consider checking if this person has maniac tendencies.
I'm a little lost when it comes to preflop hand selection and strategy heads up. I play pretty darn loose but I think I still play too tight. Here are situations I'm concerned about.
1. In the small blind on the button, what hands should you call with? What hands should you call with, and then call a raise with? Note that the raiser is getting 2-1 to win the blinds, and he knows you have an inferior hand. Not only that, you have position. I imagine your standards have to be pretty damn loose.
2. What hands should I be raising with in the big blind when I'm either last to act (ring game) or first to act after the flop. This is when the small blind has just limped.
3. What hands are worth raising in the small blind both when you have the button and when you don't?
Of the three scenarios, the first is what concerns me the most. A lot of times I'll limp in (when I have the button) with something like T5s and then the big blind pops it. Sure this is a piece of trash, but should I be laying it down heads up?
Please don't refer me to HPFAP because it doesn't contain this information.
Take a couple days and do the following: In a 3-column spread sheet rank the hands from heads-up best to heads-up worst; i.e. AA, KK, QQ, AKs ... 42o, 32o. In the 2nd column write down how many hands there are of each type, i.e. there are 6 pair hands (66), 4 suited hands (65s) and 12 offsuit hands (65o). In the last column keep a running total, i.e. there are 18 hands QQ or better and 22 hands AKs or better.
You will find there are 1326 hands. Take special note of the "median" hand, i.e. hand 663, and the hand 2/3rd from the top, i.e. hand 884. Consider raising with this 2/3 hand and calling a raise with the median. Loosen up depending on how you rate the opponent.
Imagine how easily an opponent can take advantage of you if you play less hands than this.
- Louie
Sounds like a lot of work but also a good idea. I don't know if it addresses the issue of what to limp/call raise with in the small blind but I'll do it anyway.
Great advice Louie. Jazobo Burns has a nice table on his web site that is printable. http://www.jazbo.com/.
Further, I believe that there is no special rule and whether to raise/call is determined most often by the knowledge of the players and your relative position to certain players. I certainly believe that there are some hands which must be raised in any position. One interesting exception might AA UTG. It is not automatic to bet this hand in afull game especially if you know someone else will do the betting for you and the blinds will defend and thebutton will raise as it would be nice to see it capped before it gets back to you.
"Please don't refer me to HPFAP because it doesn't contain this information."
The 21st Century edition has this information. I bought the book when the new edition came out and posted several questions. Both Mason Malmuth and John Feeney answered alot of questions I had about this section.
When I play shorthanded in the small blind I use the recommended strategy they suggest. Futhermore, depending on my opponents, whether they are aggressive or passive, I adjust the range of hands that I play.
It is not really in the 21st century ed. There is a big difference between general short-handed and heads-up.
BillC
BillC,
Are you sure we're looking at the same book? If you look at the short-handed section you will see examples that apply to head-up situations. For example, take a look at page 185.
Did you even read the original post!? For christ's sake, the info in HPFAP21 only applies to the big blind calling a raise from the small blind. Note that I never even mention that situation in my post.
Tell me where it says what to call with in the small blind, what to call with and call a bb raise in the small blind, what to raise with in the bb, and what to raise with in the sb in a heads up situation, both with sb button and full ring game.
I guess I'll have to quote it for you. Page 197.
"Let's say you are on the button with no one else in yet, in a game where the big blind calls 100 percent of the time. In that case you shouldn't raise unless your hand is approximately in the top 40 percent..."
Basically, this is the same 40 percent that you would be calling a raise with as explained on page 187,"The Hands to Call With." A hand good enough to call a raise is usually good enough to be raising with.
I use the 40 percent figure as a point of reference when deciding to play my hand. If my opponent is agressive as indicated in this book, that's the percentage of hands that I raise with on the button when I have the small blind.
Here's another quote,"...if the big blind folds more than 50 percent, you would show an immeadiate profit with any two cards."
I play any two cards with a raise if I think my opponent will not call my raise.
You will find out that depending on the characteristics of your opponents you will be playing anywhere from 40% to 100% of the cards that are dealt.
You really need to read the orginal post again, the stuff your pointing out does not directly apply to the what Robin is asking. His questions involve heads-up play, meaning just two people in the game period not heads-up situations in a full or shorthanded game.
I'm finished with this post.
Well, after a little under two years of playing, I have finally become a moderate “winner” at the middle limits. I am far from expert though. After 2922 hours of play I average 1.1 small bets an hour at the $15-30 and $20-40 hold’em tables (despite my problems with playing hands like Qx :D). Lately I have started to play a lot more online due to some health problems and I expect that for several more months until I recover my playing time will be spent exclusively online.
I don’t write this to brag, after all, 1.1 small bets an hour is far from expert or even professional level play. I am no genius. I don’t think I’m even really all that bright. Lots of people that post here are much smarter than me I'm sure. Basically I got to where I am now by working hard on my play, being objective, and picking good games. I figure pretty much anyone could do what I did.
But if I could do it all over again (heh, I make it seem like I’ve been playing for years) I would have set aside two thousand, started at the $6-12 level, and worked my way up from there. I regret having spent so much time agonizing over the little $2-4 and $3-6 games. Although I do agree that experience is real important, I believe that the information written on hold’em is good enough that a studious, reasonably intelligent player should quickly be able to move up in stakes.
So what I recommend for the forum posters here that play small stakes and do well is to move up in level, or at least take some occasional shots at $10-20. If you guys are smart enough to analyze poker problems then I’m sure you can at least hold your own. And I don’t think the majority of the posters here work at McDonalds. If losing $600 wouldn’t hurt you too much then give it a try.
You’d think that the higher limits are much tougher, and generally they are, but if you are good about selecting games they are still pretty soft. And I believe the experience you get from playing higher is so much more valuable (from a money-making point of view) that what you can get from playing the lower stakes.
I’m not putting down the lower limit players at all. But when I was starting out my plan was to grind it out at $2-4 until my bankroll was $1800, then $3-6 until $3600, then $6-12 until $6000, and THEN I would start playing $10-20. After six or seven months of doing this I realized that I could very easily afford playing $6-12 to start with (from my work salary), and with all the study and effort I was putting into learning poker I could probably have learned to beat it in a fairly short time. Had I just done that instead of artificially restricting myself, I could have developed my “middle limit” skills a lot quicker, and I believe I would be a better player today.
Ask yourself, with all the effort you put into poker by studying and posting about poker to the Internet, how much is the time you spend at the table worth? Is it $4-$6 an hour or $15-$30 (maybe more) an hour? I urge you not to restrict yourself just because you haven’t built up your bankroll solely thru poker enough or because you need the “security” of wagering small amounts. If you can afford it, pick a good game and take a shot. You might like what happens next. And at the least I’m sure that your concentration and focus will be at a higher level than when you played at your usual limit.
For those of you that have decided to break out of your comfort zones and start getting more out of your playing time here is my advice to get you started in the $10-20s and higher:
1. To start with be sure to pick a good game. Go for the loose-passive ones rather than the aggressive ones.
2. After about ten or twenty minutes at the table you should know who the good players are and who the bad players are. Try to avoid getting into marginal situations with the good players.
3. Avoid playing hands like T9s, 88, AJ offsuit, KQ offsuit (or worse) in the very early positions unless you are sure the game warrants it. It shouldn’t cost you too much. Wait until you are comfortable.
4. For the most part just play real solid. Bluff a lot less than you would normally, especially on the flop (after you had raised preflop). Tighten up a little on your open-raising requirements in the late positions.
5. Unless the game is ridiculously good try and keep your playing session short, not more than six hours. Then go home and write some notes down about how you played and what your experience was like.
6. If you don’t feel right quit and try again some other time.
Again, I’m not trying to put down any of you guys that play for fun. I play for fun too but I like winning a lot more. But what I’m saying is that sooner or later if you want to make good, steady money playing poker (like I want to) it won’t be playing $6-12. If you can afford it and you don’t act impulsively or desperately when you play take a shot. Whatever you do, just don’t spend months building your bankroll at $3-6 and $4-8 like I did.
Eventually I hope to have the skill to beat $30-60 and higher regularly, as well as learn to play stud real well too, but I still have a long way to go.
Just do it! sucker
PS You also meet a lot more interesting people at the middle limits. Well, at least in the "good games."
I think you should change your screen name. It does not fit you at all.
sucker, you are so right i myself have realized that weak players and people that play just for fun are great to have at the table, but not so good for trying to think through betting situations. i used to attempt to communicate about odds and other plays at the table until i realized i was singling myself out. although i have only been playing for a year, my bankroll has been highly volatile do to my POOR table selection.
your post hits on so many points and this is why im reading posts here rather than what to do when check raised. you can read all the books you'd like and believe that you are the best, but experience is key.
your post is breath of fresh air and alot of players i think want to grind it out, but to quote matt damon from rounders, without taking that next step your whole life can become a fuckin grind!!
david sklansky wrote a similar post on rgp about the topic of playing low limits, mostly that unless the money is signicant you can have a hard time staying focused. but i believe at low limits is where you can focus alot more because no one else is, they are watching tv, reading cardplayer (thinking they know what they are talking about) if you can watch them for awhile, you will learn what players do. so as far as low limits are concerned they are a great breeding ground for developing your skills.
i hope we have more decisions along these lines because this is i believe the future of this game, not being able to always raise with A's but being able to destroy the other players when they dont know where you're coming from
ps, you're no sucker
I agree with you 100%
Sucker, you guys make me feel stupid sometimes. I've been playing this game for 7 years now and am just now having the awareness and knowledge to have confidence sitting in a Vegas 15/30 game. Being underfunded was one mistake. Now I'm wondering if my reading everything available, then playing in the wide range of games spread in Vegas was another. Making me a up/down player for years.
Now I'm starting to see which games I want to stay in which bore the hell out of me and how to adjust to each. I'd flop around town violating rule 1 (the most important). No telling what I would/will encounter or where. I think playing the same place against the same opponents and a new face here and there must have it's advantages. I've found that I was my own worst enemy but didn't know why (mostly I coudn't extracate myself until broke and didn't adjust well enough to compeat)..
Poker is like a flower it just keeps unfolding it's mysteries. I'm not sure who said it, I read it somewhere and it's true.
You are no "sucker",
Formerly, Headcase.
Does anyone know of a good (or even a bad) Macintosh poker program? I'm afraid I'm still one of the unfortunate minority of Mac owners out there...I've heard lots of good things about Turbo Texas Hold 'Em, but of course there's no Mac version.
Any help is appreciated.
NotQuiteDead
There was a company called scenario software, but I do not think they are around. If you have a G-3 you can get a Windows software program and run the Turbo programs. I have not tried it, but they claim it runs. Get an okd 486 machine for $75 bucks and use that. That is what I did.
Knowing very little about the Macs, I believe that some of the newer ones will run PC software. Otherwise, it's time to join the rest of the world.
here's the situation: I'm playing in a very good game, loose, not too aggressive, 3 calling stations. Mama is sitting two seats to my right. she is a bad player in general and is now on big time tilt as she is down about a grand. Mama is good because she is willing to donate but she has her drawbacks; she criticizes others' play and has tried some angle shots at me. specifically, it was heads up and she didn't call my river bet. she then tried to get the dealer to show my cards by saying that I had flashed them, which was totally untrue.
A new player sits down and starts barking back at Mama in a jovial manner. Mama gets pissed and a dark cloud begins to form over the table. The game went south (tight play, bickering) and I left.
by nature I am an easy going guy but I will voice my opinion if I feel its warranted. There has also been considerable discussion on this forum about how the players need to police games when the dealers/managers won't. I was quite willing to tell Mama to shut the fuck up but was afraid she would leave the table. I have told other critical players to be quiet but they were more skilled so I didn't care if they got pissed and left.
I guess in retrospect maybe I should've been more assertive with the woman to get her to leave or mellow out. What do other people do in this situation? Does it really matter?
Most of the time I do not want to be the one at the table to make waves, I just want to avoid any association with the jerk at the table and be liked by everyone so they won't mind if I win their $$. Perhaps quietly telling the floorman is a possibility(in private where the jerk can't see it happen).
But there are times when poker and winning $$ become far less important than what is going on in front of you. I have on occasion stood up to players who were exceptionally rude or bad behaved - disregarding any possible ramifications as far as the "quality of the game" goes. Hell if someone is being that much of an asshole then the game ain't gonna be very good anyway! If you drive out the loudmouth slob from the table, the game will often calm down and loosen back up in a short while. I have on several occasions defended dealers who were being treated badly by players and were fairly powerless (or not assertive enough) to do much about it. what the hell, I ain't a casino employee, I can say what I want. Once at a 5-10 game a man was being exceptionally abusive to the dealer. I stood up for her - no one else would confront the semi-drunk, completely tilt loudmouth. But someone had to.. I actually enraged him enough where he came across the table trying to kill me! (in hindsight, an outcome I did not exactly expect). He was one of those people in the 99.999999999 percentage class of A-holes. And he was being very abusive to a very polite and nice dealer, who didn't deserve it one bit. But when he came at me there were several male poker room personelle handy so he didn't quite manage to kill me. So while they were holding him back I said "security, this man's trying to kill me!". (Readers can gag now, especially the ones who think my witty remarks are less witty than I think they are at the time). It's true though, that's what I said. And then security rushed over and took him away, banned for a year, and I was the big hero at the table. And I thought I was witty, even though some forum readers might not. They just need to lighten up. (true story, happened in AC)
But despite my long winded response you should usually just keep your mouth shut and try to avoid being associated with the jerks by the other players.
If you think about it - the extra $$ you may have made by the presence of the terrible playing moron - might not be equal - to the revenues lost by the rest of the usually poor players being so darn tight.. There is an equation we could work out for this problem, optimization, implications of the first and second derivative, etc... but I think that would be unneccesary, my point being made.
Dave in Cali
Don't be talkin' about my mama! :o)
Seriously, best to not make mama mad, she'll be back tomorrow and so will all the other fish. Too bad the game went south but tomorrow's another day. Cash in (like you did) and call it a night. Let her remember, (and be mad at) the new guy who tried (and failed) to joke with her, and NOT you.
"Mama tried to raise me right but I refused"
I think it requires good managment. I try to police my little local game to little avail. I end up getting pissed and going home( played about 140 hrs this yr). Bad vibes are bad for all. I've tried many different approaches, from getting angry ,insulting the the guilty party ,to trying reason, very little success. Small town poker is differant, small player base and no one seems to be willing to offfend a player. I don't know your game conditions but I think it is profitable to encourage a happy table. Good luck, its worthwhile to try.
I just revisited my copy of Ken Warren’s Winner’s Guide to Texas Hold’em Poker that I have outlined back when I was just learning Hold’em. It was actually the first poker book I read; before I learned about 2+2 =). Well, as I was looking through the sections I had highlighted for myself I came across an advise that I realized I never ended up using or, the best I can recall, never heard anybody else use. I thought I’d post it here and see what other posters think of it. The following is an exert from the book. I hope I don’t violate copyright laws too much.
----------------
If You Can’t Win this Hand…
Often you will have doubts about a Hold’em hand as it progresses from the flop and into the turn and river, and it becomes apparent that you won’t win the hand you’re playing. All is not lost, however. Depending upon your position, the number of players left in the hand, who the players are, and what the flop is, you can sometimes, but not that often, influence the outcome of the hand.
An ideal situation would be if you were to see the turn card with two other players, one drinking player who plays badly, and the other an older, conservative player who doesn’t take chances. The turn card comes and you’re sure you can’t win the hand. When loose player bets, you raise, even though your hand doesn’t warrant it. This makes the tight player call two big bets on the turn and in all probability, he’ll muck his cards unless he has a really great hand. The bad player then wins the hand on the river.
The reason this helps you is that you can get that money back from the bad player. The tight player who wins a big pot is more likely to hold on to the money and not lose it back nearly as fast as any other player at the table (besides yourself, of course).
---------------------
End quotation. How much worse does one of your opponents have to be then the other to make the money going to the bad one worth 2 big bets + the chance that the tight player will call? It seems to me this is a pretty shady advise for any limit. Has anybody ever used it successfully?
I do this in stud once in a while depending on the table. Usually there has to be a couple of loose bad players and a winning player who is getting ready to leave.
Sometimes it's a money maker, sometimes not. But if conditions are right, I think it's better than watching that extra money walk off the table, because at least I have a chance to win some of it.
it might have some merit in a closed home game or a shorthanded freeze out, but is terrible advice, and im being kind.
In most poker games that are offered in a casino the best players earn about a big bet an hour. This advice will cost you on average at least two hours of play.
Well he didn't say it was good advice, just interesting. And interesting it is.
vince
Could it then work in a single table, limit tournament maybe?
As Ray Zee hints, there are some situations where a vaguely similar concept comes into play. Like, when you're playing heads up against a fish, you might not want to press your small edges. You're going to take all the fish's money, unless he gets up a few racks and decides to quit while he's ahead. So, you want to minimize the variance there, and it's reasonable to take a few minor negative EV hits to accomplish that.
-Abdul
I am losing my Abdulian optimal EV faith, I can't believe the man who limp reraises pocket tens is not pressing small edges! Your point is well taken though.
You MAY want to do this when you have some shot at the pot (so it costs only part of the two bets) AND your action will put the target on tilt AND you want your raises called in the future.
A better EV play would be to call "cocktails!" and encourage additional drinking at your table.
- Louie
Burn that book immediatly.....on second thought there is a book thats called something like how to "beat a vegas rock" and has a 7/6 off on the cover and advocates taking on top notch players and their premium starting hands with small rag connectors.This would be a fitting edition to your library.
Thats 97o man! what do think he gonna tell people to play bad hands or somethin?
just kiddin. I agree the book you mentioned is worst poker book I've ever read. I knew it was bad when I was readingit , but still enough of it got into my brain by osmosis and I swear it made me play bad for about 2 weeks after I read it. I had to go into pentintent-monk-tightness-I-just-want-win-back-my-blinds mode for a little while just to purge it from my system.
Actually the basic concept of this unnamed book seems sound: that as the number of players seeing unraised flops increases, the odds for small pairs, AXs, KXs and midsized connectors justifies their play. And the value of big, unsuited cards plummets. These are the games where there are six+ players seeing the flop and lots of "walks" (no raising of the blinds). Look at the twentieth century advanced book for the loose, passive good game. Toss that KTu and call with your 76s!?
Bear in mind that the author is a winning tournament player where ruthless play of imperfect starts shorted-handed is crucial.
Much good advice in there for the beginner. Much bad advice as well.
I rate it a decent book for a beginner.
Yes that book,and its advice are exellent.................FOR ME TO POOP ON!
I picked up that book as a goof a while back. I had been playing cardroom poker for about 3 months at the time I had read it and I could not believe how bad it was. I am by no means an expert but I thought that book really blew. It's got some good stuff in it, but it is littered throughout with rotten advice.
It's easy to pick out beginners in the cardroom who think this book is full of good advice. For starters, they ask for new decks and new setups about 5 times a session. They also start to play 'rushes of little cards' if they think they are hitting the board.
I love when they do that!
I had forgotten about the advice to try to push the pot towards the bad player away from the solid ones.
I remember posting how little I thought of this book on RGP and Gary Carson ripped me for it. Still can't figure out why he defends that book.
Because of it's format which is good and because it has a lot of good beginner advice.
I may change my mind that it is a good book for beginners because of the poor advice in it. The reader must be able to tell what could be good advice or not.
I have thought about this, but never applied it as stated. I have tried a number of times to force out the tight player when threeway with a weak player.
There must be a chance I can beat the weak player. If I force out the tight player and still lose then the above benefit applies. Out of 15 BB pot I could expect to win 2 BB's back.
I was wondering what the expected earning on a 3-6/5-10 game. I am a solid player, I have read lee jones and 21st century, and currently I'm at about 1.5 BB, and I feel I've had some bad luck, but is this average?
Thanks
Fieldy
no of course its not average. expect to earn less.
My Girlfriend and I both play and we are now solid players, how much an hour are we expected to make over the statistical long run 200+ hours? Is it less than 1.5 BB/hr in a low-limit game? What is the expected rate?
Two hundred hours is not the long run even in a low limit game. In a $3-$6 game if your standard deviation is $60 per hour (10 Big Bets Per Hour) then after 200 hours your standard deviation for this period of time would be $60 x square root of 200 or about $848. The uncertainity associated with your hourly earn is $848/200 hours or about $4.24 per hour. So in a $3-$6 game if you computed your hourly earn at $9 per hour then about 66% of the time your true earn will be somewhere between $4.76 per hour ($9-$4.24) and $13.24 per hour ($9 plus $4.24). In other words, there is still a significant likelihood that your true earn is not even 1 big bet per hour ($6 per hour). Suppose you needed to know within say $2 per hour what your true earn is, then how many hours would you have to play? Answer: 900 hours.
Me and My GF are planning on playing througout the summer, (about 40 hours a week)*2 people..so about 80hrs/week*14 weeks..equals 1120 hours. We are both students but are lucky enough to have next year payed for from savings etc. We are currently building our poker bank roll up over the next 5 months (400 hours of play). We are studying the game every night for about an hour as we want to go the states for 3 months and hopefully play the LOW LIMIT games, and make some cash. If we are completely solid and educated in hold em what is our expected earnings over 1120 hours of play. What would our expected earnings per hour be for a 5-10 game, we obviously will be scouting for a loose passive game. For the summer we were planning on this... Playing 3-6, 4-8, 5-10 throughout the states..starting from Mohegan sun in boston to Atlantic city for 2 weeks, then to Tunica (10 days), then to Biloxi(7 days) then to El Paso(2 days), then to Phoenex (2 days) then to vegas for (3 weeks) then to Cali/SF( 2weeks) then back towards Ontario stopping in Kansas City etc. Is it likely to be able to do this? We will be doing about 80 hours a week combined. Can somebody provide testimonials and the such?
your adventure sounds awesome and you will surely have alot of fun and learn alot that will help you much in your poker future. Keep exact diary and records of your results.
I don't know what your bankroll is though and I don't see how you can possibly earn enough at those limits to cover your expenses of such an expensive trip.
I've looked into it a bit,and many places provide free rooms to poker players, or they are fairly cheap. If I make 1 BB/hr and there is two of us, so 2 BB(20/hr)@5-10. That means we are making about 800/week..how is this not enough? especially with room comps/meal comps. I was lead to believe you could pull in 2bb in a low limit game that is rich in fish, CONSISTENTLY, We have combined 100 hours in low limit 3-6 and we are at about 2bb/hr..and I feel as though I could have made more if it werent for some mistakes and bad luck.
Well more comments would be great.. Fieldy
.
there is very little in the way of free rooms or comps that are worthwhile except for a quick meal. its hard to find games for the number of hours you want to play but possible. good luck as it will be fun but have an escape plan. not many low time players are going to travel around and make 400 a week each in small high rake games.
the trip sounds fantastic. Have a great time.
However, poker is not a sure thing. Players can run badly over long periods of time. Bankroll is the key along with solid play.
If you require wins to continue with the trip then u are putting extreme pressure on yourselves.
You may go on tilt looking for the fast wins OR play weakly hoping to conserve what u have.
There is a reason it is called gambling.
Good luck.
PS It's similar to what I would like to do with my Motorhome. Maybe a converted van for you to save on rooms etc?
I feel as though I could have made more if it werent for some mistakes and bad luck.
That's great.
I mean no offense, allow me to clairify: bad luck is a part of the game, as another poster said, "that's why they call it gambling". You won't be able to avoid the bad beats over the 1000 or so hours just because you're on vacation.
Addiditonally, with the pressure that so much playing and the sheer number of hours you put in, it seems that there will be a substantial chance for added tilt-a-riffic play as well as exhaustion playng a role.
That said, good luck and have fun!
Joe
Do it even if it doesn't turn out to be financially rewarding. Touring the U.S. is a lot of fun and you meet a lot of different people. But do put some more thought into what your expenses will be, as ultimately, that will determine whether or not your trip is a success. Plan now.
I've spent the last 6 months almost nonstop on the road playing poker. My general rule of thumb is that it costs at least $100 a day to be away from home. Obviously if you are staying somewhere cheaper than a Holiday Inn and not driving 500 miles a day, you might shave that a bit. But there are many variables, such as if you are flying, renting a car, minor emergencies, medical needs, etc. There are other annoying things to consider such as bank access, cell phone connectivity and internet access.
Yet a bonus from traveling is that you learn an awful lot about the way people play in different locales. Still, I'd have more confidence in your outcome if the two of you had more hours and were playing at a higher limit. Those "rich in fish" games you speak of have a very high variance -- there is no guarantee of a win.
Skip El Paso and go to Albequerque (however you spell it), NM. The games are much better there.
Remember that making 1BB per hour at a low limit table puts far more of a drain on the game than making 1BB per hour at a mid limit table. That's because there is a gigantic whirlpool at the center of the table (the rake) sucking all of the chips into the great abyss (the casino's pocket book.) For *2* people to EACH make 1 BB per hour, that's tougher than just one person making 1BB.
I really don't think you can make 800 dollars a week between the 2 of you. Sorry. How many hours experience do you already have? I remember when I started playing low limit, I played 3 8 hour sessions and won 4 BB per hour. I thought I was a God. (Well, technically, I am the son of a god (Zeus) but you get the picture.)
Now I make about 1.1 BB per hour at limits from 6-12 to 40-80. But the point is that you cannot take just a short period of time (less than 1000 hours) and extrapolate your results from there. If you have less than 100 hours, then you could well be a substatially LOSING player overall and not even know it because your samle size is too small.
Back to making 400 per week each. It's not likely. Sure there are many who could do it, but most of them have a LOT of experience playing.
Hercules
So what would be our expected earnings for a week, 80-100 hours per week combined be? Would it be 0.8bb per hour each, what can we do in the next 5 months that would increase that?
Btw, we are planning on having a bankroll of about 5 grand US.
Ok first things first. As for how much you can expect to make, there is no way of knowing unless you each have around 1000 hours under your belts. That's hpw long you must play before longterm skill overpowers the effects of short term luck.
Even terrible terrible players can have 10 winning sessions in a row. I know a loose aggressive player who is a consistent loser - sometimes losing as much as 200 BB in one session!!! - but I have also known this guy to win 10 sessions in a row.
I know of a real loose calling station who actually won a tournament against some pretty tough competition - he played AT LEAST 80% of his hands, played them passively, went all in 7 times, and still managed to win the tournament because the deck hit him over the head. The final table was no limit, too!
How much can you expect to make? It is impossible to tell without at least 1000 hours experience.
I can tell you this - over the last year I have averaged around 1.1 BB per hour at limits from 6-12 to 40-80. I played around 1200 hours. This year included one cold streak of about 3 months where I broke even, and a couple of month long how streaks where I averaged WELL over 2 BB per hour and made winner about 90% of the time.
A good friend of mine is a solid player but she very seldom wins. I have often marveled at that. She plays tighter than most (not as tight as I do) and more aggressive than most but somehow never manages to win a lot. The other day I was present when she won 100BB in one session. She claimed that that has never happened to her before - and she is a dealer who plays a LOT! I've seen even horrible players win more than this before.
Point is, it takes a LOT of hours to figure out where you are. Don't plan on surviving for a whole summer on poker until you are SURE! ALSO, 5K bankroll is nothing if it includes your living expenses. The 2 of you could burn through 1000 of that in a rough session of 5-10. Imagine being in a really live game, getting pocket aces 7 times, AK 5 times, etc etc and NEVER winning with them? (This happened to me once.) I burned through 50BB in record time.
Hope this helps.
Hercules
Fieldy, If U go on this trip, please come back to this fourm and give us the relsuts of your profit or loss. Good luck we will all be waiting for your return.
Coyote
Get a job...playing low limit poker for a living is a dilemma only a sucker would let himself get into. Play low limit after work and if you are good enough to play 20-40 or above and win then maybe you can quit your day job. Otherwise you are asking to go broke and have no nothing to fall back on. I moved from winning at 2-4 holdem/stud to winning at 30-60 stud/holdem and above. It took me a year to pull it off. I went broke once after moving up too fast and believe me if I didn't have a job it would have been ugly. Ask yourself what you will do if you hit a really shitty run of cards and go broke.
Thing is that it isnt really for a job, I'm not saving up for anything, Im merely trying to take a trip with 6000$ for three months while playing poker. I am at school and will be there for a long time (getting the phd), I have lots saved up for the next year, but I do not want to work this summer, I want to travel and I thought perhaps playing 5-10, 10-20 would help me break even for the trip, hopefully bring back the 6,000 I brought with me. I would never quite a job, I dont have any bills or anything to pay, so I was merely wondering if I could pull off 3 months with 6000..WITH no bills but food and occasional lodging. However, I would try to get comped as much as possible, as my gf and I are both playing, I am sure that a room for both of us is not too much a hassle. Also we would be racking up twice as many hours as you people, as we are the same bankroll, 1 hour is really 2 hours. With One bb/hr or even 0.5bb an hour..thats about 7.50 canadian/hr (5 bucks american) each,, thats more then we can expect to make this summer, so if we were gonna be on the lower end of the spectrum (.5 bb/hr) we would still do it, however with the dedication we are putting into this game, Im sure that we may be able to pull off 1.0bb/hr.
The reason why I want this summer off is that I worked 60hr/week last year in a gm/chrysler factory making rims and I made 13,000 in four months, but I didnt see 15 days of the four months I worked. I did this for two years, saved up quite a bit, and now am taking a summer off. And now they arent hiring students and I am not working for minimum wage. Does anybody think my situation can work?? it seems that some do and some dont.... well bye for now Fieldy
6,000 isn't enough to be on the road for 3 months unless you can guarantee a win. That would be very tight just for expenses. I'd recommend planning a shorter trip with some flexibility built-in so that you can extend it if things go well.
I'm not sure if this is best posted here, or on Other Topics, so don't start flaming right away.
I have always thought that the general rule is, "Action taken out of turn must stand." If someone checks out of turn, they must check when the action comes to them if no one has bet. If they verbally declare, "Fold" out of turn, they must fold when the action properly gets to them. Etc. Etc.
Couple of situations have come up recently and I wanted to get clarification from the forum if the house rules in your room are any different.
Situation #1. Heads-up after the flop. On the turn,Player #2 checks out of turn. Player #1 bets, and is called by #2. On the river, Player #2 again checks out of turn, Player #1 bets, and now #2 raises. Is this permissable? I wasn't one of the two players involved, so I didn't say anything. #1 paid the guy off, but I didn't think #2's action was legal. Dealer did not intervene.
Situation #2. This one in my mind is pretty clear-cut, but maybe not. Guy in SB is in the middle of burning off 5 racks in a 3-6 game. Has made a whole series of impossible calls, foolish bluff raises, etc. He verbally declares, "Fold" when the action was still in early position. About five limpers, and now he wants to call out of the SB. Personally, I could have cared less if this guy was in the hand the way he was donating to the cause, but several players objected. Floorman was called, and she didn't know what to do. SB solved the problem, and went ahead and mucked his cards. Once he says he going to fold, he has to fold, right?
Where I mainly play on the East Coast, any action out of turn, except hitting the muck with your cards, is not binding.
Steve C
Dunc,
I’ll try to answer, but note that rules are different form club to club **.
In most clubs, verbal action in turn is binding. Verbal action out of term is just BS and isn’t mentioned in the Los Angeles rulebook. Few top players do this type of thing, as you get a bad rep. What I have found is that second-rate players pull this stunt and they think they are putting one over on us while they otherwise lose. So they are happy to be getting away with a trick now and then and we should be happy that we get their money anyway. However, I believe allowing this is not necessarily good for the growth of poker in that the marginally motivated player may be turned off by this kind of thing. In other words, the Ray Zee’s of the world use the angle shooters angles against them, but the somewhat above average player who is trying to win will often blame his lack of good results on angles and things.
Regards,
Rick
** As an example of how things can be different, one day at Hollywood Park we had three different ways of allocating odd chips at Omaha H/L on the same day!
As Rick said, not that I read his post or anything like that, is correct: action out of turn is generally NOT binding.
A couple clubs I visited have the "peepee-whacker" rule: The first blantant out-of-turn hehehe ploy and you get a warning; the 2nd you get your peepee whacked with a 3/8 stick; and the third you get thrown out. It was my understanding that NOBODY had ever been thrown out twice.
Bring the angle shooters to managements attention. In the mean time, stongly suspect that such angle shooters will continue to do so and that THIS sort of angle is almost always a weak-means-strong tell; and a reliable one at that.
- Louie
Dunc,
Without reading the above post, I was able to extract the following using my blind cut and paste utility:
"Bring the angle shooters to managements attention. In the mean time, stongly (sic) suspect that such angle shooters will continue to do so and that THIS sort of angle is almost always a weak-means-strong tell; and a reliable one at that."
This is strong advice. Excellent players don't lose to angle shooters - they use the shooter's angles against them and beat them for even more than they otherwise would. This also applies to all the sloppy plays opponents make such as folding out of turn, flashing cards and so on.
At the same time, weaker but ethical players often fall prey to the angles. Sometimes this drives them away from the card room or all poker and THIS costs you money. This is why the industry is better served if rules are written and enforced to prevent most of the worse angles. But it is a fine line in that too many poorly written rules take the gamesmanship and some of the fun out of poker. This tends to tighten up the game.
Unfortunately, expecting typical card room management to walk a fine line in decision and policymaking is...well, don't hold your breath.
Regards,
Rick
I'm a little surprised at the responses. I know I'm out here in the hinterlands of poker, but at least the local cardrooms enforce a couple of rules that nip this type of angle shooting in the bud.
In this particular case, the guy was not angle shooting in the least. He was just a bad player who wasn't paying attention, but the casino is pretty adament about enforcing the 'out of turn' rule, and if nothing else, it would probably inhibit anyone from trying a deliberate angle shot because they would know in advance that it would not work.
On my recent trip to LV and LA, I was appalled at the BLATANT angle shooting going on with people pump-faking a bet, seeing they were going to get called, and then pulling back their bet and checking. Of the three poker rooms here, two enforce the rule that if you crack your stack, it is considered a bet. The other one recently rescinded that rule and now the chips have to actually leave your hand and hit the table, which IMO is a step backwards. They were getting good cooperation from the players, and everyone generally knew what the rule was regarding a commitment to bet, and now this one room is leaving everyone at the mercy of the shooters.
It's a good thing we are so unfailingly polite, that few, if any, players try this sort of stunt. If someone did, they would of course apologize.
I always play in Edmonton and I played in Vancouver on the weekend and got almost chucked out for playing out of turn so much. Why?
They would pump fake their bet and I would make my play (whatever it was, fold, call, raise, etc) because I was so used to the rules in Edmonton "You crack your stack and thats a committment!". The rules in Edmonton make a very tight and fast game, and I really enjoy them vastly in comparison to these anglers games.
I also got kinda chuckled at for sounding like such a fish because I always announce what I am going to do before I touch my chips (a holdover from my first days playing in Edmonton when I inadvertently cracked a stack a few times and someone suggested that I say what I am going to do first). I know it might sound odd, but if you have someone formally announcing "Call" or "Raise" every time, well, I guess Im about the only one who does it. Dealers always seem to like it tho.
David
I play in Vancouver and the angling with chips is rampant. I would like a bet line used. This allows you to play with your chips but not to put them very far towards the middle of the table. I think the crack your stack is too rigid. Gamblers like to play with their money.
Dunc,
in the bigger games where everyone knows each other such practices dont happen often and most players wait till the money is relesed before moving. some dont and that is what a tell is about. i generally follow thru with my bets but if somone is intent on beating me in the pot my arm will stop and ill check but wont do it as an angle shot but do it when somone is clearly acting before im finished. i feel that since the bet is not made until the chips are put in the pot you also have the right to change your mind until you complete the action without being labeled as an angle shooter. i sometimes pick up my chips before ive decided completely whether im betting or not. does this make me an angle shooter just because someone is in such a hurry to act that he gives away his intentions, and that would somehow make me have to follow a course that i dont want to. places that have the dont break your chips rule does eliminate it but the other side is that angle shooters call it on the new players when its in their best interest. thats the problem with rules that are enforced by the opponents. they just call them when its to their advantage. some places uesed to have a line on the table and any bet over the line was in. i liked that rule as it made it clear and even a bad dealer could get that straight 80% of the time.
The Grand in Biloxi has that inner oval. Chips placed inside the oval are a wager. Anything else isn't. When all players are aware of this the hand fakes lose their value.
I also sometimes hold chips big enough for a raise (sometimes a "piece") and think about what I'm going to do. Then I may tap my knuckles to the table and say check. This isn't a move: I actually am thinking. The inner oval saves me from the accusation of making fakes to elicit the intentions of players after me.
I don't play nearly as much as you do (or as much as I used to), but I haven't experienced the crack your stack rule. If it exists, it isn't enforced while I'm around. I DO see commit lines at the places I play, so maybe that's why. I prefer the little white line.
Eric
Situation 1: I was in a hand almost identical to this a couple of years ago. Heads up after the flop. I checked first thinking it was my turn, other player bet. I smooth called with my set of the second high card on the board. turn card was a blank of the fourth suit. I checked with the intention of check raising, but just then the dealer noticed where the button was and told the other guy it was his action. He bet I raised and the whole table(except me) burst out laughing. he check called the river with top pair. I gave him $20 back because I felt terrible that I inadvertantly pulled of some angle shot.
Later that evening I thought this guy was the one pulling the angle. If he knew he was first to act and let me bet first he was gaining position unfairly.
It's never "unfair" to let somebody shoot himself in the foot. Not nice, perhaps, but not unfair.
Eric
Before I read the others, I'll state that I believe a player is not bound by an out of turn action.
However, it is angling and a player should be warned and then banned for the night if they persist.
Now if a big loser was angling, I certainly wouldn't complain. I would do nothing to drive him form the game.
has got to be Oceans 11 in Oceanside Calif.9/18 kill ,after a break I come in and post(12$) behind the button.The SB has to kill it (18$) in addition to the posted BB(9$).My first card is an Ace/spades,the second one a 5 of spades comes in cartwheeling hitting the player to my right's chips and ended up leaning upright fully exposed to all the players and the dealer.I asked for another card AND WAS REFUSED.The floorman told me they have a strict policy of not giving another card even if the original lands face up to keep angle shooters from taking atvantage of the dealers.This explanation made no sense to me.The dealer turned my card over,slid it back to me and said its on you.This happened a while back,can anyone tell me if they still enforce this silly rule.
Paul III,
Are you sure you have the facts straight? Most clubs won't give you another card if it hits your hand before flipping over to stop the angle shooters but will give you a new card if it is exposed without touching your hand first. If Ocean's 11 does it as you described, then they have a bad rule IMO.
I renamed the post to get John Feeney's or bruce's attention since they often play there. Maybe they will comment.
Regards,
Rick
Not actually sure of the official rule. (I think I'm in a small minority of players in that I'm not very rule conscious.) But it seems to me that in recent times I've seen a card flip over, and the dealer showed it to the table and replaced it with another card. So it may have changed.
If the card flips over you get a new card. If it is exposed and doesn't flip over it's your card. Tough luck.
Bruce
i bet it hit your hand first then fliped. they could have a rule for that but its still a bad one if true. there are proper ways to deal with angle shooters that dont punish the majority of honest people. maybe they are just providing the same kind of rules our government does that punish all to protect against a non existent minority gaining some benefit. maybe some of these clubs should have a rep. that reads forums and responds as that would seem to be good business for them.
Thats odd, because I think it happened to me for the first time ever last night. My second card hit my hand and flipped face up, exposing the 3 of clubs. It was replaced, giving me AK hearts. Try keeping a poker face when you see that?
THEN get a flop of 4-5-6, with the 4-5 of clubs! It was checked around because everyone was laughing too hard to bet, and an ace came on the turn and I won anyways...
David
The card in question did not come close to me and the dealer explained to the floorman exactly what happened and confirmed that no one touched it.
then the dealer or the house should have to make up your blind money for you as its their mistake at your expense. but i think the floorman made a wrong ruling or something as ive never heard of a major club making such a foolish rule and keeping it inforce for any length of time.
You think thats a bad house rule - try this one on for size.
I was visiting a friend in the rural northwest US. The game in his town has the following rules:
No checkraising - No checking the nuts
This is terrible! How can you play early position with no checkraise? And how can you trap people if you can't check the nuts? Plain dumb.
-SmoothB-
Think about how unbelievably important position would be if you couldn't check-raise.
The only thing playable up front, in my opinion, would be the 3 big pairs.
I havnt been to CircusCircus lately but in the old room there no checkraise was allowed.
longer ago before poker grew in popularity and lots of players came up from nevada, in the northewest many places were even worse than that. ive played alot of high stakes games where there was no checkraise(almost all the games did this),you could not check a cinch on the end or you lost your last bet(not lost the call you lost the whole bet), and many places there was an unwritten rule that at no time in the hand could you check a good hand. a good hand could be top pair to someones eyes. so when you had top pair or better even if you didnt like your hand you bet at least something but not so little to look like you were sucking someone in. ive seen a few blackeyes because of this rule when someone from out of town or a jerk checked a good hand.
Paul III,
This rule is no longer in effect at O 11 as I was just there and I thought the place was run well. BWDIK!!
Smooth B,
Not being able to check your nuts must give female's a huge +EV in a game like that!!!
paul
I'm going to turn 18 in a few months and I've been winning consistently in some home games and can't wait to get out to MN's first card club. I'd love to hear from anyone who has been there about what it's like and what to expect...and stories or anything about it would be great! Thanks
Jeez I hope there is not a lot of 17 yr olds studying on 2+2 before they go to Canterbury!
Congratulations on your willingness to do some research before you go to a cardroom.
I assume you have read 'starter' books like Jones' 'Winning Low Limit Hold Em' and Krieger's "Hold Em Excellence" or "Poker for Dummies". Those books, especially Krieger's, provide very good descriptions of what you should expect in a cardroom, including the difference between home games and cardroom games.
Canterbury Park (http://www.canterburypark.com/) is the only cardroom I ever played in, so I have nothing to compare it to, but I have found it to be a very good place to play.
Most of the dealers are very good, a few are beginners, but do a decent job. The floorpeople are also very good, although don't expect every decision to go your way. The low limit games run the gamut from "loose and wild, every hand capped preflop" to "chopping the blinds every 3rd hand".
I have found that games late at night (11pm to 4am) are the best games to play in. The Hold Em jackpot (check the website for details) is very high right now, and many of the higher limit players are dropping down, which can make for some very uncharacteristic 2/4 and 3/6 games. I was at a 2/4 table waiting for a 3/6 table one night and these guys held onto those dollar chips like they were $5 cheques!
On the other hand, a lot of people are out chasing the jackpot, so there is a higher than usual number of games being spread. Practice game selection and ask for a table change if there seem to be a lot of pots under $20. Very tough to beat the rake in that kind of game.
Canterbury park does not give out any comps, but coffee and soft drinks are free. (Toss the waitress a chip every now and then though!)
I suggest you take at least a few minutes to watch the action of the games a bit before you sit down. It will help you get into the flow quicker when you start. The action will seem incredibly fast and the blinds will be a bit confusing when you first sit down, but you will get comfortable with it fairly quickly.
Protect your hand. Don't pick your cards up off the table to look at them (watch how the other players 'peek'), and keep a chip on top of your cards at all times. If you leave your cards out where the dealer can grab them, he will muck your hand. I notice many players simply refuse to do this and raise holy hell when the dealer mucks their winning hands.
Don't string raise. (Although everyone does it their first time in a cardroom.) Don't ask for new decks and setups, that just wastes time. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
When you first sit down to play, play tight. Many very young players are also very poor players and your opponents will probably (hopefully mistakenly!) put you in that category also. Expect to get a good deal of action on your winning hands. Don't bluff for a couple hours, you WILL get called. Many new players tend to overvalue their hands and play every hand to the river. You can use that to your advantage.
Good luck and have fun!
Canterbury is the only card club I've been in also, and I can't beleive how the players focus on the jackpots. There are some solid players and some very weak players. I'd be curious to know from someone with experience if the Canterbury games are tougher or easier than the average Vegas game.
I totally agree with you on the jackpot thing.
I don't play the lottery and I hate that I have to donate a $1 from every pot over $15.
However, if it brings a lot of chasers who are not very good players into the games, I am going to try to capitalize on it.
Of course, I am getting a LOT more runner-runner beats laid on me than usual!
In the future, plese put this type of post on our Other Topics forum.
Wow, thanks for all the great info and tips guys. BTW I have read and re-read Jones and read just about everything posted on this sight. I currently play in a home game that I've pretty much taken over and that has fueled my fire to play for some "real" money. I take home about $60-$70 dollars per 4 hour session on quarter ante. I'm excited to get out there, my first time I plan to just kinda watch and figure things out.
I'm having a rough time understanding the blinds and some other rules that we don't play in our home game...so I was wondering if they had certain times where they show how to play a game? Or demonstrations or something like that? Or do I just have to play and figure it out? Thanks!
(Sorry Mason...no body posts in the other catagory, this would likely not get read)
In your defense, the thread you started has brought up some good topics apart from your inquiry about Canterbury Park. (Home Games, Jackpots).
What kind of games are you playing in your home games? I know the games I play with my friends resemble cardroom poker ONLY in that there is a deck of cards involved. Apart from that, there is NO SIMILARITY.
The only demonstrations at Canterbury Park are the games being played. There is no instruction, but if you have a question before you sit down, simply grab a floorperson (They will be wearing dress clothes and badges) and ask. They will be happy to fill you in.
I would also suggest you post questions regarding blinds and gameplay to the "Beginners Questions" forum, I notice that it is very widely read and posted to by many non-beginners in this forum.
in fact the other forums do get read and you would have got plenty of answers. so for your selfish reasons you put a post in the wrong forum on purpose. shame on you, i hope no good comes to you for your actions. go to rpg they will love you over there. no good luck.
Well again I'm sorry... I hope you're kiding with your negative attitude Ray...I've generally respected your opinion but taking a personal shot at a beginner, both in the game and on the site doesn't show much for your character.
Dan, thank you for your responses to this thread. We play Texas Hold'em at home with all of the same rules except blinds (we play ante) and obviously not as high of dollar amount. I'll take that advice to ask some questions about blinds and such. Thanks again!
I know during the racing season they had poker demonstrations every day. Maybe that's done now that the card room is more established. Give them a call, I'd be willing to bet they still occasionally have instructional demonstrations.
..
I am not Ray Zee, but it sure was easy to type in his name and answer for him.
If I can use his name, so can anyone else.
He may very well be a miserable SOB; most of his posts - in spite of usually being very helpful - are written in a patronizing manner; I have only once seen him pay anyone a compliment.
My point: the man in question is not all that hard to find if you look in the right places - I'm tempted to make a joke about which rock(s) to look under, but I think I'll just pass.
I would suggest waiting until you do have the opportunity to meet him ( I never have, so I can't offer you any info as to whether or not he really is the way he appears to be ) or until you are able to speak to someone you know who has.
I am very big on giving the benefit of the doubt; even if he is the actual author ofthe posts which bear his name, there are some genuinely warm and kind people out there who just seem to wake up on the wrong side of the bed EVERY DAY.
Being cantankerous is not synonomous with being mean, but it is easy to confuse the two.
" I have only once seen him pay anyone a compliment ".
You must not be reading the same forum, that I am.
I also know that I have learned a lot from reading what Ray has to say.
Thanks Ray
Howard
This stems from a thread in the small stakes forum entitled "77". Our hero has 77 (imagine that) in mid position. Everyone folds to the player directly to his right, who raises. Our hero, corectly as all who responded said, folds. My question lies in how likely you are to be dominated if you reraised and isolated this player.
I would guess that the player would raise with any pair higher than yours and a whole slew of high cards. My real question lies in the pairs b/c we are about break even against the overcards (?). How badly are you dominated by say 8's through maybe 10's. I realize you are mathematically dominated but practically speaking I don't think 8's, 9's and to some extent 10's dominate you if you show aggression/strength early in the hand. My point is, wouldn't you both have to flop an overpair to be at a huge disadvantage b/c overcards will scare your opponent into likely folding (note your opponent is probably not a 2+2 poster and doesn't know how to play heads up effectively). All this boils down to, if you think you are better postflop than your opponent you would not be a huge dog like the numbers tell you.
All this being said I too would fold in the original situation (which I apologize to the original poster if I butchered any of the info). Just curious as to how off my thinking is. Plus, I don't have to worry b/c at this point I probably can't outplay my opponent after the flop so it is a clear fold for me :)
Steve Sommer
I think the notion of "dominated" usually means the opponent has a card matching yours AND his side card is higher than yours; e.g. AK vr AQ.
With a small pair and the opponent is sure to have two cards higher than yours, then you are about even money against two overcards but a serious underdog vrs a higher pair. Unless you are SURE to outplay the opponent after the flop (you can confidently fold or bet) then you are generally in a losing situation, and considering unknown action behind you a fold is your primary option.
- Louie
Hi there...
Now don't tell me to post this on the internet forum, I will if I don't get enough answers here but I feel that that only subjects of discussion over there are about collusion and the damn ramdomness of the software.
Anyway, I've started keeping track of my online opponents when I first started playing at Paradise.
I'd write down the name of the player, the location of the player (some players have similiar names, it was easier this way), hands played in early, middle, late position, hands raised with and from where, semi-bluffs, overall comments and a general idea of the player i.e. loose-passive.
Unfortunaly, I got up to 20 sheets of paper with about 15 names on each and got tired of it since it would take me an hour to located a specific player. Since they were hand written and thus not in alphabetical order.
Plus online there's a new player every ten minutes. Sure I remember the very good ones and the very bad ones but I'd like to keep a better book. When I play live, I always remember a face, I'd see that player 6 months later and I'd remember how he plays. Online is more difficult.
There is got to be a good system or program to use that can do this. I've thought of using excel or quattro pro but I'm wondering if there could be a better way...
Any suggestions?
ThePrince
Prince,
I used MS Notepad (the text editor in Windows) with a separate file for each player. Of course you keep them in one directory and sort them alphabetically. When you play it is easy to keep all opponent files open on your taskbar (make the taskbar double width so the names will show clearly) and remove or replace the files as new players enter the game.
Regards,
Rick
nt
Man, you guys are out of control...MS notepad...text editor...what the hell are these things..I've got one piece of paper and a dull pencil to make a list of fish, rocks, solid, maniacs etc.
Jeez, I gotta get with the program (literally speaking).
Now don't tell me to post this on the internet forum, I will if I don't get enough answers here but I feel that that only subjects of discussion over there are about collusion and the damn ramdomness of the software.
You know, if you had posted this over there you might actually GET them to talk about something else.
I don't play on the internet much. But if I did and I took notes, I'd use a sticky note program (assuming my notes weren't too copious). This way I could paste the notes around the playing area, so that the notes were near each player and I could tell what I was dealing with at a glance.
There are many many sticky notes programs out there. I use the one built into ICQ.
David
that's another reason I found it better to play at Planet - the talent is probably the same as at Paradise, but the pool of players is smaller, so it is easier to get to know the players.
ditto doc...and I know enough to get out of your way:)
Use MS Access. It's a database program that would be much simpler (and handier) to use than separate files per player.
Then you can sort by last name and so forth. I'm going to start one in 5 minutes. Although it seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure what I want on it yet.
e-mail me with ideas!!
Do bad players play with different cards than the rest of us at the table? I read a number of posts defining bad player's as players who play too many hands and then come through with the winning hands.
I may be wrong here, but common sense tells me that all players at the table have the same odds of getting the same hands? Perhaps a player is playing all +EV hands no matter how small the +EV? A bad player can flop the monster as well as I can.
I don't feel that a sole defining criteria of a bad player should be the amount of hands they play. Perhaps a 'bad player' is getting good draws or starting hands that just don't hold up as the hand goes on?
Both good players and bad players play hands like AA,KK,AK, etc. What makes a player bad is that he plays other hands that are not profitable given his position and the betting action. Take a weak hand like King-Ten offsuit. A good player will limp in behind others from late position or use this hand to try and steal the blinds from late position by open raising. But a good player will fold this hand in early position and will fold this hand if the pot has been raised ahead of him in most cases. The bad player will open with this hand from any position and even cold-call raises with it. Bad players also will play any two suited cards from any position if they think there will a lot of players in the hand (e.g.-Nine-Deuce suited). I could cite many other examples. Therefore, the bad player will usually be playing a lot more hands over the course of a year than a good player especially in raised pots. Ironically, the bad player will frequently win more pots than the good player since he is playing more hands. But the bad player will not win as much money in the long run as the good player because the bad player will be losing money in a very high percentage of the hands he is involved in.
Playing too many hands and going to far with hands is a pandemic disease among poker players.
The number of hands (averaged) is not the only thing that defines a bad player. If you are classifying yourself as a good player then you should know this.
Many players play quite well postflop but like to be involved in many pots.
Many tight players play very weakly postflop.
Some players play badly in alley aspects but they usually quit or learn to play better (thereby losing more slowly).
Bad players will win monster pots with 58 offsuit from any position. Good players may do this with 89s from many positions but typically late positions (some games alow you to play these cards up front).
Good Luck!
Whoa, if someone would play ALL (and excusively) the +EV hands, that player would actually pretty good, cause there are some situations where I don´t know whether my hand has got +EV or not.
The bad thing about playing all the +EV hands (read that as "marginal hands") is that your variance goes way up while your +EV moves up only little, that´s perhaps what you meant.
But to answer your question: bad (=too loose) players not only most likely play all the +EV hands, but, more importantly, they play way too many -EV hands and stay too long in the pot; and this is where they leak.
On the most basic level a bad player is someone who puts money in the pot when he has a negative expectation. A common indicator of this sort of player is someone who plays alot of hands. when I see someone playing many I don't automatically assume they are a bad player. wait until they have to show a hand down and then analyze the way they played it. the first question to ask is: should that hand have been played in the first place? analyzing the post-flop play is tougher and is not always as clear cut but you can always make an attempt at it.
over the course of a session it is not uncommom for good players to be playing many hands simply because chance is smiling on them and they are getting quality cards combined with good game conditions.
When is it correct to semi-bluff check-raise?
A number of situations actually - depending upon game characteristics, position, nuances of the player(s) in the hand, and the like. I think your question requires an essay to answer properly, so I'll refer y