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How much more info does the 2000 edition have than the old one? Is it a worthy addition to the old one? What other topics does it cover? thnx
Buy it, it's worth it... as long as you don't play on East Coast.
Do what I did, and sell your old copy at reduced price. Someone will probably buy it, lowering the cost for the new one.
How do the fish survive?
I want to discuss two major mistakes I see players make and why it seems to work for them.
I lose so much money in this game while trying so hard to make only winning plays, I don't understand how these players can survive when they are constantly making losing plays. I literally see players making mistakes with EVERY aspect of every round of the game, and they do ok. I don't get it.
For the record, I lose much more than I win, so technically I am also one of the fish. However, even tho I'm usually sitting at the table losing, it's always crystal clear to me what's going on. I feel like I have a good grasp of the game's mechanics and a good understanding of how my opponents play. I feel that I'm thinking at a level beyond theirs when I play. Anyway, let's just say I know what I'm doing more or less, and can identify bad play and bad players fairly readily. But I wanted to clarify that I AM a losing player so my analysis may be suspect. And in fact that's why I'm posting this because I'm starting to wonder if I have it all wrong. So....
There are two things I notice other players do often and I'm baffled that they have any money left to play.
1. Calling down aggressive pre-flop raisers when you flop a crappy pair.
This happens ALL the time. Someone raises early. The button cold calls, the blind protects, the flop comes 3 handed. The board comes J62. Now, the big blind is not a good player, and may have protected his blind with a hand like T6s or 65o. The preflop raiser bets all the way and the BB calls him all the way down with his six. WHERE did the BB learn to play this way? HOW is it possible that this play has been positively reinforced? These guys often are long time players, old-timers and the like. The crazy thing is that it works ALL the time. The flop and turn go check-call, check-call, and the river gets checked down, with the pair of sixes taking it down. It's amazing. Now this is a goldmine for someone who finds a pair bigger than a TT, if you can get it. The same manifestation can be found when they call a preflop raiser and catch a weak ace and call down all the way. It's amazing how often this play will take down AK (in the first case) or QQ (in the 2nd case). Whenever I'm in a situation to play like that, I pay dearly. It's almost ALWAYS a losing play and I've long since learned to stay away from those situations. But I see others do well with it.
2. The next big error I see is a subset of the previous error. Cold calling with trap hands. Countless times I watch players cold call raises with hands like KTo, JTs, 44, etc. etc. Some players will fold for three bets but rarely for two. So they cold-call two bets with QT and flop a T and call down the preflop raiser all the way. What kind of strategy is this? It's crazy if you ask me but it seems to work for everyone else.
In my experience, I can barely get AK to stand up when I flop top pair much less make any money with KJ flopping top pair. Trap hands suck. I DON'T understand how these players can make money long run playing that way, but they DO. Some of them may be exaggerating to me how well they do, but I'm sure SOME of them are telling the truth, and the truth is they do ok. They aren't pros or full-time players but they play regularly, and they WIN. They win MY money in fact.
I don't know what else I'm supposed to do with AK when I flop the top pair and I KNOW my only opponent is calling me down with either a weak kicker or a different pair. I bet and bet and bet and when the river comes, they catch their kicker. It happens SO often that I'm starting to feel that AK is a trap hand because you'll just catch top pair on the flop and then lose on the river. --
I always believed that my opponents were making a mistake by calling down my "obvious" overpair or calling 2 bets cold with KT. Now in the McEvoy Quiz thread below I see Mason and Vince writing that I should call down two pair with an over pair even if I KNEW the guy had two pair on the flop. Is the inverse true as well? Should I be calling down an overpair if I catch a pair on the flop? This seems suicidal to me but I watch people do it constantly. I can probably count the number of times I've caught up to a flopped 2 pair with my overpair on one hand. It NEVER happens for me. When somebody flops two pair against my AA, they win my money, period, every time. Same for the inverse. If I catch a pair against an overpair, I'm screwed. Of course, I'm not a terrible player so this doesn't happen too often, the most common occurence is when I catch a Q with my AQ against AA or KK. That sucks. So what the hell is going on? What is the right thing to do and how should I do it?
If it's true that both players are doing the right thing by calling down two pair with an overpair and/or calling down an overpair with an underpair, then where the hell is my edge in this game?
I personally cannot bring myself to believe that either tactic is correct, because in my experience it's total suicide. I just have a hard enough time showing a winning hand when I play premium cards, and I can't imagine how these people stay alive playing such garbage. However, after observing it for so long and seeing others get such positive results, I'm starting to wonder if my understanding of the game needs some revision. Anybody out there think I'm crazy?
natedogg
You're too timid. When you've got AKo and you flop top pair you have to PROTECT your hand. You want to make draws pay a premium to see the cards unless you know someone has outdrawn you. Raise aggressively, it's the only way you're going to win any kind of pot with a flop like that to AKo. You're letting people outdraw you and walk all over you. Make it too expensive for them. How could you even consider AAo as a trap hand? If you have the notion in your head that AAo will win more pots than other cards then maybe it would be a trap hand but that's not necessarily true. It's only a trap hand if you overestimate the value of AAo. AAo is all about playing the flop and the people. Certain boards are good for AAo and others horrible, so play accordingly. If you want to know what a trap hand is, try playing 66.
Apparently you missed the special hyperbole alert I inserted into my post right after my sarcastic suggestion that AA was a trap hand. I'll repeat it here for you.
-hyperbole alert for the dim-witted-
I agree with you that certain boards are good for AAo but I think I'd rather have AAs no matter what the board.
This response is interesting in that it represents a curious phenomenon. It's amazing how often people respond to a post in a way that suggests they read an entirely different post. It's as if they read your post, but their brain translates the ideas incorrectly. Often, it's as if they completely skip over the ideas they don't already have in their head and replace the ideas with some old ones of their own, and then read on.
You're too timid. When you've got AKo and you flop top pair you have to PROTECT your hand.
This statement isn't even related to anything I discussed in the post. I NEVER said that I play AK passively when I flop a pair.
natedogg
Well, if you're getting outdrawn on AKo (people making two pair, whatever) then you aren't protecting your hand enough to knock people out. Or do you wish to retract your statement about never winning with AKo when you flop top pair? You spoke of this yes? Well, there you go buddy. There's no luck. People aren't getting lucky, you're letting them fuck you over. Besides with a statement like:
"I agree with you that certain boards are good for AAo but I think I'd rather have AAs no matter what the board."
Well what the hell is that supposed to mean? If there's a good straight board or a three flush board (after the river) then why the hell would you want AA? You would lose. You place too much value on AA and you will continue to lose money with them. Go ahead. Ask someone on this forum or Lee Jones what your chances are of winning with AA. They're not anything special.
Saying that I didn't understand your post leads me to believe I understand it better than you. You were complaining and whining about how people always stay in and they seem to catch the right cards to always beat you on these bad plays. WELL THAT'S WHY I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT YOU'RE NOT MAKING THEM FUCKING PAY ENOUGH TO MAKE THOSE BAD PLAYS. Damn.
Boy you are slow. I was making a jest about your notation of AAo, as if the "offsuit" part of AA needed to be noted. When you respond to that with:
Well what the hell is that supposed to mean? If there's a good straight board or a three flush board (after the river) then why the hell would you want AA?
... that makes me suspect even more strongly that I was absolutely right when I said you don't understand what you read.
And secondly, I'm going to repeat my warning for you ONE more time, which you can find in the original post.
Do you know what "hyperbole" means Halis? More importantly, do you know what "dim-witted" means?
Also, what the hell do you know about how I play AK? Again, I would like to reiterate that you don't understand what you read because I NEVER discussed my style of playing AK. I was talking about a completely different issue. Jesus. Like I said, I think you (and some others) just skim over ideas that would require thinking and replace the contents of what you read with convenient little old and over-used and much-rehashed simple thoughts of your own. It's easier that way. I understand. Then you just start commenting away blathering on about something that wasn't even discussed in the first place!
Finally, I apologize in advance for letting my emotions get the best of me and flaming away. I'm in a bad mood and I'm really really sick and tired of ignorant people giving me crap like you did in your post. Especially when they don't even have basic reading comp skills.
natedogg
Sorry for flaming like that. That was lame of me. I am currently in a pissy state of mind over a long streak of bad beats and the comment about me playing my hands wrong by not forcing people to pay just set me off.
natedogg
Hey natedogg, a "hyperbolic dimwit" may just be a good thing. Don't you think? Maybe we better ask John Cole.
Vince
Vince,
That one's beyond me, but I'd love to hear your explanation.
John
John,
If I knew what in the hell I was talking about I wouldn't have asked you.
Vince
Vince,
Since when did you have to know something to write about it? ;-}
Okay, a "hyperbolic dimwit" might be a dimwit who is characterized by hyperbole. But this doesn't make any sense. Dimwits can engage in hyberbole, or you might say that the statements of a dimwit can be hyperbolic, but I don't think it makes sense to call a dimwit "hyperbolic."
Anyway, I once heard Rush Limbaugh use "hyperbole" as a verb--and he rhymed it with "Super Bowl." Any wonder why the chief sponsors of his radio show are sellers of vocabulary building kits.
John
Cruise ships are the only legal poker. Try Sun Cruz in Hollywood (954-929-3800), the Palm Beach Princess in the Port of Palm Beach and Sea Escape in Port Everglades (Fort Lauderdale). It's all 10% rake to $5.
Florida was voted "worst place in U.S. to play poker" by Poker Digest magazine.
The Seminoles won some sort of agreement with the government to allow high stakes poker only. They were seeking all table games, but were allowed only the non-house banked games of poker. I doubt the Seminoles will offer a good game with a reasonable rake, but improvement is around the corner at least in the Lauderdale area.
... but I've been hearing this sort of thing since the eighties. The Florida legislature is implacably hostile to the concept. The referendums held in Florida over the last two decades have passed only in Dade and Broward counties, and failed everywhere else. The Indians effort to get what other tribes in other states have has moved into the courts and has been unsuccessful.
Central and Northern Florida suck the majority of the states tax revenue from the bottom four counties, and spend it mostly on themselves. The disparity is enormous. The legislature is controlled by people locked into the past who dispise us because we aren't authentic Southerners. They don't need a special reason: if we want it, they oppose it. They don't care how unfair they are; they enjoy their power to inflict their primitive standards upon modern people.
When Castro dies and Cuba reopens its casinos, when the state of Georgia legalizes casinos and builds them on the Florida-Georgia border, then the Florida "forward: into the past" Baptist coalition may relent and let Florida leave the eighteenth century. However, by this time pigs will have taken flight.
I can just imagine what the Seminoles will rake if they are able to get higher stakes poker, the cruise ships are raking 10% up to $5.00 so the Indians will probably try to double it.
They are such pigs its beyond belief, right now they are taking 100% of the re-buy money in their "mini tournaments", it's outrageous, I won't give them a dime it is absolutley impossible to win with that much money coming out as well as the greed factor.
The cruise ships are bad but the Indians make them look like martyrs.
I am here in Florida and as long as I don't plan on turning pro the only option I see at this point is PP.
z
Boris,
Thank you for your points. I can see the merit in your alternative plays depending on the situation. A couple comments though:
1) if you wait until the turn, you might not get a chance to checkraise as the flop bettor may be on a draw himself and take the free card.
2) I don't expect you to very often get out hands like KJ or KQ, what I am really talking about is a) getting out hands that are only slightly better than yours (I don't know if I made it clear or not, but would expect them to drop to a bet on the turn, not immediately to the checkraise), and b) increasing your chances to win the hand, even if you know you are behind. Lets say you knew that the better i) had KQ, and ii) would not lay it down. Is the check raise still correct? It is if you get out the draws and increase your chances of winning the pot from say 10% to 20%.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
I agree that check-calling the flop in order to check-raise on the turn is bad. Some high percentage of the time you'll get no bets on the turn and give 3 opponents free cards. Disastrous.
But I wouldn't usually go for the check-raise on the flop. I would if the limpers were passive and tenacious, for the reason you mentioned. I'm usually more concerned with getting bets in when I have an overlay, even if my opponents have the correct odds to draw out.
Against typical (i.e. more aggressive) opponents I'd therefore bet it expecting the middle players to drop and getting it head-up with a preflop raiser who'e most likely hand is (effectively) one overcard. This often allows me to pick up the pot on the turn, whereas check-raising might tie him on to the river. The second most likely scenario is to be raised by a limper with an inferior jack, thus knocking out the preflop raiser (or smoking out his overpair), and allowing me to 3-bet the flop or check-raise or check-call the turn as circumstances warrant.
I much prefer check-raising from the blind with more vulnerable hands, but I might be wrong.
"Since I wouldn't want to draw to a crappy 2 pair in a big multi-way pot, (if I'm right) that means you should only do it when you're heads up. Getting 8:1 for a turn bet playing heads is HARD to do. There had to be a LOT of raising on preflop and flop."
what about a medium sized pot played 3 ways?
"Specifically, I am starting to wonder if calling down an overpair with a pair you made with the flop is worth it and in a related way, if calling down two pair with an overpair is worth it."
how do you know someone has 2 pair?
"Lastly, everyone has justified the cold-calling requirements IF the raiser is liberal. "
there are other, more important factors that go into cold calling a raise than if the raiser is loose or tight.
"So again, I'm wondering how is it possible for these players to survive long term when they are cold-calling raises with QTo?"
I don't think they survive long term. Although one time did 3 bet a live straddle with Q-10o. I won too, but I knew a ten was coming on the flop.
Finally, from your questions/comments, it sounds like you are not adjusting properly from no-limit to limit games.
Finally, from your questions/comments, it sounds like you are not adjusting properly from no-limit to limit games.
How do you mean? I'd really like to hear what it was I said that made you think that. I'm surprised because I started off playing limit and have only played no limit in the last 6 months or so. If anything, your impressions of what I said may give me some more insight into my own style of play.
natedogg
I got that impression (and that's all it is) because it sounds like you are not willing to put more money in the pot when you THINK your hand is second best. I estimate that on average if you are incorrect even 1/5th of the time - meaning you folded the best hand - you are making a negative EV play by folding. In limit poker it is a huge mistake to lose a pot because you failed to call a bet. I'm sure you are aware of this concept so that's why i thought maybe you were not adjusting. just sum thoughts
....... there is 2 concepts I don't get ?
[] You have a weak hand (such as 2nd pair) and check-and-see, but are relieved when early opponents check and a late opponent bets. This is a VERY common check-raise.
???? Please explain !
Notice that check-raising has much more to do with you and the opponents and much less to do with your exact holding.
???? Please explain !
[1] When I say "check-and-see" I mean that you check not knowing what you intend to do. In this case when early position players check (*phew*) and a late position player bets suspiciously (*yahoo*) then you can raise with 2nd pair, when you would be very reluctant to do so if an early player bets.
[2] Lets say you are in the blind with K8s and flop K94r. Do you check-raise? The answer has more to do with the other players (how many, how aggressive, if there was a raise, who bets the flop) or your over-all strategy (do you want to steal often? Get flop free-cards?) then whether you actualy have K9, A9, or QT. So a better question than "should I check-raise with this hand" is "should I check-raise against these opponents right now?"
- Louie
'By betting out with draws, second or third pair, top pair-bad kicker, top pair good kicker ...'
Im not trying to be inpolite here - I just don't get - I like to do some of those playes - when I'm in position - and it is checked to me (thereby gaining information).
Suppose I'm on BB with J4/off - 5 players - Flop is Q94 - I bet to gain information - Would that be a good play ?
I don't get it ?
The initial scenario in this thread was about raised pots, and my reply included thoughts that pertained primarily to unraised pots. My goof.
In unraised pots from the BB, at 20-40 and 40-80, with five or fewer players, I like betting out if I hit the flop in any way because my hand is a 100% wildcard hand. By consistently betting out with draws AND pairs, my hand remains a complete unknown. The fear factor is on my side. Plus, with no preflop raise, the players aren't mentally geared up for battle. I think this combo makes players fold (or just call) more than they should.
As to raised pots, I fold my BB to a raise more than any player I've ever seen. If I miss the flop, I tend to check and fold, and not play on with just two overcards. That part of my game I'm not interested in changing right now. What I should examine more closely are various ways to utilize this image/style. These days if I hit a pair or a legit draw, I bet out. (Keep in mind that hitting a pair means I made a big pair with a big kicker, and any "legit draw" has high card value as well.)
Yeah, I play scared from the blinds with a big hand. I WANT them to know I have a hand, so that 1) they'll fold 2) they won't play back 3) I can lay down later if beat.
I should check-raise more often if for no other reason than its a tool I don't use, as if a carpenter chose willy-nilly to keep one pocket empty on his tool-belt.
Suggestions?
Tommy
Had this hand the other day. 4/8 loose passive game. I'm on the button and limp with A9spades. SB calls, BB checks, family pot. Flop comes Kc 2s 6s. Checked al the way around and I bet. BB check raises all call except 2 players. Turn brings a 9c. Checked around again to me. Now I can't put anyone on a hand. I bet and BB check raises again. Now I'm getting worried and think he must be slow playing KK. Based on prior play beleive that would be unlikely. All fold and we are heads up. I reraise and he caps the betting. The river flops a beautiful 7s and I've got the nut flush! BB bets I raise he calls and shows two pair K9. The guy was hot and started screaming how "this" idiot was betting only a 37% chance. Correct me if I wrong but isn't it correct to bet hard when you are drawing to the nuts? I feel like I had tons of outs.
I hope you reraised on the flop. If not you are losing a LOT of bets.
Yeah on the turn you may have overplayed it a bit. Since you are heads up your strong draw doesn't have enough payoff to reraise at this point, but like Jim Brier said the mistake is small.
There is an exception though. If it was your intention to call him down on the river with a pair of nines (say you know the guy and he does quirky things so you don't know if he is bluffing or not) AND you strongly believe that he will check to you on the river then you lose nothing (assuming you check the river with your pair of nines). However this play can backfire, he might have trips and cap it, then you're paying 4 big bets when you only had to pay 2. I wouldn't make this play a habit, only in the right spot.
Jim Roy
Ten players see the flop. They check to you, you bet, SB raises and everyone calls except two players right? Well then you have 7 opponents. Even if the checkraiser walked over to you and showed you pocket kings to prove to you that he had top set than you could STILL raise for an IMMEDIATE PROFIT on the flop even though you don't have a hand yet. I did the math on this a while ago but I can't remember exactly how many opponents you need to raise the nut flush draw against an opponent you think has trips and I don't have the time to do it right now. It is less than 7 (3 or 4 I think, 4 sounds right), and if you think he has anything less than a set than you can raise the flop for profit with as little as two opponents (although this is a small profit/large expectation play). Conclusion: Reraise on the flop!!!!
BTW, I think you were too agressive on the turn. Jim Roy made some good comments about this.
One third of the time you make the flush. Of that time, the set will fill up one-third of the time. So you win 2/3*1/3=2/9 or 7:2 against or 3.5:1 against, indicating you need 3.5 opponents to break even. Its a brain-dead cap against 7 opponents (except when so many callers indicates others have a flush draw).
- Louie
x
This is a case where you have a nice draw for the money already in the pot AND you have enough players to essentially play an even money proposition on new bets.
It's a situation you can take avantage of to mix up your play.
He was mad because your play confused him and he didn't expect to be beaten by a flush. Strangely, he probably wouldn't have been mad if you had trips. With you drawing, he had the best of it and against trips you would have the best of it.
Oops,
Everyone folded on the turn. Like Jim said, Not a big mistake and it probably buys you a lot of respect for your agressive play.
You wouldn't want to do this every time since the small EV's add up.
It turned out that you had 12 clean outs = 26.1% chance on turn to hit your one of your outs on river. Next time donīt reraise.
I'm noticing that I have real problems when I'm in early position and flop a set or two pair when the board is very straight coordinated. For example, I have something like 77 or 67s and the flop is 678 (even worse if there are two of the same suit).
Let's assume that this is a low-limit game with 5-7 players to act behind you. I typically bet the flop and usually get raised. Most of the time, the raiser just has a draw. Most of the players call the raise, including myself of course. I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand, but I tend to get real passive after that because I know that there are just too many cards that can beat me on the turn and river. As a result, I check the turn (even if it is a blank) and might bet the river (if it's a blank). Am I playing this way too safe? I know that I need to make these players pay for these gutshots and open-enders, but I've been beat too many times by these draws. I guess my question is should I be reraising on the flop or betting out on the turn? How do you guys play these situations, especially from a tight/aggressive point-of-view?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Jace
Betting the flop, that's good. when you get raised, THAT'S GOOD! That way you can RERAISE! Checking the turn, that's BAD! NEVER give them a free card with that sort of board! Getting passive here is a CRITICAL mistake. betting when you are beat loses you a bet or two. checking when you have the best hand and giving someone who would have folded to a bet the cards that beats you LOSES YOU THE POT!!!! Don't get passive with your sets, coordinated board or not. Bet, raise, reraise, do whatever you have to in order to get the most $$ into the pot NOW while you have the best hand.
dave in cali
In a low limit game like this you will almost always get someone to bet. If you are in early position I think it is imperitive to go for the checkraise on the flop. Often the first few players will check and a checkraise will knock them out. Rarely but sometimes when you bet out the flop and someone in late position raises will a re-raise get those others that called the first bet out of the hand. They seem to think they are being scrutinized by the world so they must call because it's manly or they don't want to "look" weak.
in either case you must bet the turn. As has been mentioned you can't give them the free card. Sometimes but it is hard to tell, you can in fact checkraise the turn, but that's risky if you don't really know if someone will bet again. But this again can put pressure on them. It also makes players think twice about betting med-strength hands when you have checked in the future as well as sometimes not believing you have the nuts in the future when in fact you do.
How can I make $$$ on this hand either now or in the future is what I ask mydelf often times. Future profit can be much bigger and I will look for the chance to make that happen.
The old cliched advice, as I understand it, is paraphrased "if you flop trips and lose, and don't lose a lot of money, you probably didn't play it right"
Reraise that flop!
Bet it , and re-raise those situation whenit's time , a player who miss his draw won't pay you , but you will pay him if he hits it !
...like your orthography? ;)
But seriously, if the raiser typically has got a draw, then reraising (with two pair, but especially with a set) canīt be wrong.
The only alternative I can think of is that stop-and-go method if the raiser is close to your left: call the raise and bet the turn. If you get raised again, the others would have to cold-call two big-bets (good bye drawing hands), if not, then you know that the flop-raiser has got a draw.
If unsure, rather reraise the flop.
The first part is a partial reprint of his initial post and his response to his own post (from medium stakes forum), then my analysis follows.
The player UTG limped in. I [Mason] was next with AsQc and raised. All the players behind me through the button folded, both blinds called, and the original limper called. [8 sb in pot]
The flop was Ad Th 8h. The player in the small blind checked, the player in the big blind bet, the original limper folded, I called, the player in the small blind raised, the big blind called, and I called. [14 sb, 7 bb in pot]
The turn was the Td (putting two tens on board as well as two hearts and two diamonds). The player in the small blind bet (who had checked raised the flop), the big blind called, I raised, the player in the small blind turned his hand over and threw away an AJ [getting 11:1 pot odds], and the player in the big blind called. [12 bets]
The river was the 4h (putting three hearts on board). The player in the big blind checked and I checked. I won the pot as my aces beat a butsted straight draw of 9-7. ...
It should be noticed that given the way I played my hand that it appears to be much stronger than it really is, which is probably why the AJ folded. This leads to an interesting and important question. Given that I have AQ, do I want the AJ to fold. A second question is, given that this player folded an AJ without any hesitation, what would he do if he held AQ instead.
***************************
Now my analysis:
The second question is easier. If he would fold AJ in this situation, he MUST be giving you credit for at least AQ or better. My guess is that he has put you on AT, but maybe he just put you on AK or perhaps Pocket TT or AA. Whatever the case, I think if he would fold AJ here he would also fold AQ and maybe even AK. I don't put HIM on a ten, so I liked your turn raise.
The first question is harder, let's do that one next...
The player with 97 had eight outs to beat you. There were 11 BB in the pot when the SB had to call one more. The straight draw will make his draw here about 17% of the time, for drawing odds of 4.75:1. Since the jack would complete the straight, AJ was drawing almost dead here (he had four kings which would make it a split, as neither your queen or his jack kicker would play). But do you want him to call? Assume no betting on the end.
The straight draw will always win 17% of pots in this situation, so he is always taking 17% of AJ's $$ when AJ calls. Which means that you are always taking the remainder of AJ's $$, or 83%, except for when it's a split pot. Also, there will be one more big bet in the pot if AJ calls.
Now if AJ folds, Mason will always win 12 BB 38 times and lose 12 BB 8 times:
12 x 38/46 - 12 x 8/46 = 9.91 - 2.09 = 7.82 BB
But when AJ calls, Mason wins 13 bets 34 times, split 4 times (winning 6.5 BB), and lose 8 times:
EV = 13 x 34/46 - 13 x 8/46 + 6.5 x 4/46 = 9.61 - 2.26 + 0.57 = 8.19 BB
So Mason actually makes a bit of profit when AJ calls here.
Now if AJ was in fact A5, or some ace hand that had outs to outright beat AQ (as well as split), it would be different. Assume the SB had Ac5c. (JUST ASSUME, don't get into why it wouldn't be played like that! He was a FISH, OKaaaaaaay!)
NOW...
the straight draw will still win 8 times and lose 38 times, but Mason will win three less times than before....
If a non-5, 6, J or K comes, Mason wins 13 BB. that will happen 31 times out of 46 possibilities. he will lose 11 times, and split the pot 4 times.
13 x 31/46 - 13 x 11/46 + 6.5 x 4/46 = 8.76 - 3.10 + 0.57 = 6.34 BB
So Mason's overall expected value has decreased by 1.85 BB.
8.19 - 6.34 = 1.85 BB
The reason for this is that not only does he split the pot 4 times, he LOSES the pot three more times! So IF the SB has outs against Mason, he would still do better in the long run if SB folds.
But what if the pot was small?
Assume the same situation, but somehow there are only 7 BB in the pot. JUST ASSUME! (ok, Mason didn't raise BTF, there were only 4 players, Mason bet the flop and everyone called, then the BB bet the turn and Mason raised!!!! Sheesh!).
Now it costs Ac5c two big bets to call. (He is obviously making a huge mistake if he calls, but does that help Mason?). We will assume that the BB will call as well, making a total of 8 BB that Ac5c can win if he calls. There will be a total of 10 BB in the pot if Ac5c calls, or 8 if he folds.
if Ac5c folds, Mason's EV:
8 x 38/46 - 8 x 8/46 = 6.60 - 1.39 = 5.21 BB
if Ac5c calls (there would be two more BB in the pot):
10 x 31/46 - 10 x 11/46 + 5 x 4/46 = 6.74 - 2.39 + 0.43 = 4.79
So even when the pot is this small, Mason still loses a small amount of EV from the incorrect call. Notice that the pot really has to be VERY SMALL for Mason to profit from Ac5c making a VERY bad call! This is a case where players making a bad call are benefiting the best draw rather than the best hand.
What all this hoopla should show is that when you have the best hand, but not an invulnerable hand, and there is a big draw against you, you would rather have the two and three outers FOLD, even though they are making a mistake if they call! This is one of the exceptions to the fundamental theorem of poker DS mentions, where even if you knew what your opponent's hole cards were, and he was making a mistake to call, you would still rather have him fold.
This is also the type of situation discussed in Dan Hanson's article "The mysteries of multiway pots", from July 2000 Poker Digest. I also wrote a post concerning this article a few months back (on the small stakes forum, I think!).
Comments / criticism / corrections welcome.
Dave in Cali
... when you have the best hand, but not an invulnerable hand, and there is a big draw against you, you would rather have the two and three outers FOLD, even though they are making a mistake if they call! This is one of the exceptions to the fundamental theorem of poker DS mentions, where even if you knew what your opponent's hole cards were, and he was making a mistake to call, you would still rather have him fold.
Really?
n/t
the reason is that weak draws often benefit the best draw rather than the best hand, decreasing the overall expectation of the best hand. this happens because weak draws don't take away from the # of times that the best draw wins the pot, but they do take away from the # of times the best HAND wins the pot. this is why it is critical to raise with the best hand, even if you cannot really hurt the best draw. the more you make it cost, the more you offset this effect, even though you won't be able to eliminate it completely playing limit poker.
n/t.
f
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up this point. Excellent post Dave
I realize I made a mistake in my original calculations, but I did correct them later. The point here was really not the exact calculations but to show how an extra caller in the pot when someone is drawing against you hurts you. I have another version of this post which I will put on the forum soon that shows how having several callers with good draws hurts you even worse.
dave in cali
you are correct about the 97 having seven outs, I forgot that one of his jacks was out.
you are also correct that there were more ways to split than I counted.
good read. when you try to analyze something this complex, it's hard to get every single aspect of the hand correct without having someone else look at it to see what you missed. thanks. Overall, the point should still be made. maybe tomorrow I will do the corrected math....
dave in cali
Correction
Sorry guys I missed the full boat possibilities (I guess I missed the boat!). It didn't make that much difference in the numbers, but Mason doesn't profit from AJ calling when the pot is big, because the extra splits push the numbers back to a slight decrease in profit due to the extra player. Corrected calculations:
Now if AJ folds, Mason will always win 12 BB 39 times and lose 12 BB 7 times:
12 x 39/46 - 12 x 7/46 = 10.17 - 1.82 = 8.35 BB
But when AJ calls, Mason wins 13 bets 32 times, split 7 times (winning 6.5 BB), and loses 7 times:
EV = 13 x 32/46 - 13 x 7/46 + 6.5 x 7/46 = 9.04 - 1.98 + 0.99 = 8.05 BB
So Mason actually loses a bit of profit when AJ calls here instead of making a small amount.
Ac5c ...
... the straight draw will still win 7 times and lose 39 times, but Mason will win three less times than before....
If a non-5, 6, T, J, A or K comes, Mason wins 13 BB. that will happen 29 times out of 46 possibilities. he will lose 10 times, and split the pot 7 times.
13 x 29/46 - 13 x 10/46 + 6.5 x 7/46 = 8.19 - 2.83 + 0.99 = 6.35 BB
So Mason's overall expected value has decreased by 1.7 BB.
8.05 - 6.35 = 1.7 BB
When the pot is small...
if Ac5c folds, Mason's EV:
8 x 39/46 - 8 x 7/46 = 6.78 - 1.22 = 5.56 BB
if Ac5c calls (there would be two more BB in the pot):
10 x 29/46 - 10 x 10/46 + 5 x 7/46 = 6.30 - 2.17 + 0.76 = 4.89
So Mason still loses $$ even if A5 makes a bad call on a small pot.
Just for curiosity, Ac5c's EV cold calling Mason's raise:
8 x 3/46 - 2 x 35/46 + 4 x 7/46 = 0.52 - 1.52 + 0.61 = -0.39 BB
AC HE players chop the blinds if nobody bets. I have seen this done in all 2-4 3-6 and 5-10 games. Some people chop with AA or KK. Is this correct playing? Some times as soon as I seat at the table I am asked? Do you chop? Please comments. I know one "regular" that never chops, and he let you know it before hand. I don't chop he'll tell you. Witch is right?. Thanks.
beginner -
Either you're a chopper, or you're not. I found this out at Bellagio when I was in the big blind with AKs and no one called. The SB asked me "chop?" and I said "no." He folded, and I took his $2. I said "I'm not going to chop with Ace-King suited!" Then the dealer kindly informed me that it's not proper poker etiquette to decide whether to chop or not based on the quality of your hand. You should be a full-time chopper who will chop in all situations, or a no-time chopper who will not chop in any situation. Since I get many more bad hands than I do good hands (as is the case with all decent players,) I'm a chopper. One way I deal with this is not to look at my cards in the blinds until the action comes to me...this has the added benefit of being able to look at the other players to determine the strength of their hands. If I notice that no one else has called, I will ask to chop without looking. If the other blind player agrees, I muck'em. I find that it gets me a little more respect at the table, since almost every player I know is a chopper.
Scott
I'm a chopper as well, usually just not be the sole anti-social one at the table. (Also , with a 3$ collection in a 5-10 game, it just makes sense. For time charges, its just a go-along with the flow thing.)
However, when the game gets short, there's a time to start playing the blinds. I like to start playing at 6, but will settle for 5.
But as Scott says, the time to bring it up is not when your in the blind and its been folded to you! Tell your neighbors when the game gets enough for you.
Best,
Zooey
I think you just need to make a standard agreement with each of your neighbors that you will automatically chop when its just the two of you. If so, there is no asking you just toss in your cards and take back your bet.
If you have no such agreement, I have no ethical difficulty in making or accepting an offer, but wouldn't do it since someone offering to chop obviously doesn't have much.
- Louie
Try not chopping when you have for a few hands - bottom line is it is probably best to chop taking into account the rake.
Personally I don't like it but will go along to keep things friendly.
f
Both are right but whichever you do, do it all the time.
Don't "choose" not to chop just 'cause you have AA.
The way I look at it you are making a mutually benificial truce when agree to chop (even though I have the arrogance to usually consider myself a better player).
If you always chop, sometimes you will get AA, sometimes your neighbor will get AA, mostly you'll both get trash. Either way when you play you are making very little profit. It gets the hand over with quickly for the rest of the table. The biggest thing, especially in low limit games, is that you save on rake.
I appreciate it when a neighbor tells me before hand that he doesn't chop. That's also not so bad because you get into some heads up battles, which can be fun.
Yes it is bad manners to chop and then decide not to chop when you have a great hand. I remember those who do that. The exception is when the bad beat is very large, then I let my neigbors know that I will chop unless I have a bad beat hand in which case I call, roll the cards, and discreetly split the pot afterwards.
Jim,
Discreet is the key word. When you make a "deal" to pursue the Bad Bet sans betting, make sure the dealer or floor is unaware of this as it can negate the jackpot when two players have prearranged not to bet at each other. They look for excuses not to pay off.
Jake
I agree with everyone else's comments. I personally chop in that situation no matter what I have. Most of the players that I play with chop and those that don't usually tell me ahead of time (of course, they're on my immediate left and right).
I remember one time when I was in the BB and the SB asked if I wanted to chop. I looked at my cards and had AsKs. I smiled and said "sure, but I really shouldn't" when I showed him my hand. He showed me AhKh and we both had a good laugh.
.
Where I play, no rake is saved by chopping, otherwise I would surely chop.
And let's assume that when it comes to playing, I will net $0.00 by chopping OR not chopping.
I don't chop because chopping is a hassle. When I used to chop, I'd sit there day after day asking people if they chop because I hated getting caught offguard by a non-chopper. (The games here have tremendous turnover and lots of seat changes.) And if the game teetered around five or six players, I had to memorize everyone's personal threshold for chopping or not chopping. In short, chopping took up much energy that I preferred to use elsewhere.
Because we don't have a no-flop-no-drop policy here, the percentage of non-choppers is far higher than in Nevada. So there is no social pressure to chop, otherwise I would probably succumb to it. If it looks like a blinds-only scenario is unfolding, and the other blind doesn't already know that I don't chop, I do let them know as quickly as possible. I think that's a fair courtesy that more non-choppers should extend.
Tommy
Chopping is a social convention in most LL games. It is a friendly gesture. Friendly gestures make the game more fun for weaker players. Good players don't generally take a hardass approach toward new or weaker players. It's not at all good for business.
Yes you will occasionally run into someone who refuses to chop. This is rare enough that it will have an almost meaningless effect on your long term win rate.
PS In big BADBEAT situations I usually tell the player to my left in advance that if I call my small blind in a chop situation it means I have a possible bad beat hand and that I will make no further bets in the hand, and will chop after the cards are rolled. This even furthers my "nice guy" image.
In poker you have to play the metagame as well as the immediate game at hand. What I mean by this is when you do things in a game not as a direct means of winning the current hand, but for the purposes of keeping the game as an environment you can beat long term. This meta-game can include everything from showing a bluff, raising early with small suited connectors to throw your opponents off, needling your opponents, or pretending to be a fish. (The last one is one of my favorites. I usually do this effectively and efficiently by asking for a deck change after the first hand I lose).
Anyway, I was thinking about the problem of calling down aggressors for the purpose of "not letting the table run over you". If you fail to ever call a raise on the turn or river, then soon enough people will realize you can fold and will start to raise you more, pushing you off the best hand at times. In order to prevent this, you often have to grit your teeth and call them down, even when you are pretty damn sure you're beat.
This is what I mean by the meta-game. You call down on the river not because you necessarily think you can win this hand, but because if you DON'T, you'll get hammered like that even when they don't have a hand. Ironically, this means you are encouraging your opponents to only bet at you with a real hand. However, now that you've encouraged them to refrain from bluffing you on the turn and river, you have set yourself up as a person who will pay off. So now, you are in a situation where maybe you should fold to an opponent who bets into you when a scare card comes. It's a catch-22. Call down too much, and you will only be shown winning hands. Fold too much, and you'll get pushed off by aggressive bluffers who have no hand.
Obviously, you should probably try to achieve some sort of balance in this. The best way is to be really good at reading tells, I suppose. Then you'll know when to call and when to fold. But I don't know anyone who's good enough to rely on tells like that.
It would be nice if there was a simple answer to this. Does anyone have any effective methods for determining the OPTIMUM frequency of calling down when you are sure that you're beaten? I'm talking only about the meta-game purpose of preventing yourself from getting run over too much. So in other words, calling an aggressive bet on the river when you suspect you have the best hand, or when the pot odds dictate you MUST call (a 15BB pot and the like), do not factor into this.
Also, a quick thought about this aspect of poker when playing no limit. Does this idea apply to no limit? Can you call with your entire stack partially motivated by not wanting to get run over later? The problem with no limit is that it's easy to get run over when you don't have the nuts. If you have a medium to large stack, an aggressive player who is willing to push in on you whenever he senses weakness will put you to the decision with almost every hand, especially when he has position on you. I personally have called down aggressive bettors early in a session mostly for the purpose of showing I won't be run over. I have put all my money in the pot with middle pair. This has won me the pot about 50% of the time, but has given me more control at the table 100% of the time. It's best to do it early in a session when stack sizes are generally smaller than they will be later on.
natedogg
You're basically talking about "advertising" and "image projecting" - but using a different set of words to do so.
I suggest that you let the meta-game flow naturally from the immediate game.
First. Play each individual immediate games optimally.
Second. Notice how you are being perceived by the table as a result of how you played each of the immediate games, collectively.
Third. Exploit this image.
By following these three steps, advertising is free instead of expensive.
nt
Yes, the old story of not being known as a folder when the opponents are aggressive - well, Iīd say the optimum frequency is when your opponents know that youīll call down with (very likely) cracked hands often enough so that bluffing against you on river isnīt worth it, in turn allowing you to fold against their value bets when they really have got you beat.
.
Yes, the old story of not being known as a folder when the opponents are aggressive - well, Iīd say the optimum frequency is when your opponents know that youīll call down with (very likely) cracked hands often enough so that bluffing against you (on river) isnīt worth it, in turn allowing you to fold against their value bets when they really have got you beat.
Hello everyone - going to Rochester NY next week for business. Would be great to get some poker in - anyone know of some good games there - I checked the Lucky Eagle Casino. No hold em or stud, which is what I'm looking for. Thanks in advance for any info!
x
Glad to see you back in action. Stay away from the crap table---Please!!
Today I am Playing 5-10 HE. I am new to the table and get red aces in middle pos. Pre-flop two limp to me, I raise, and two caller to my left. SB and BB fold. 5 players total in the hand. The flop is: 7c 8c 9s. UTG comes out betting with "gusto" and the player next to my right calls. I fold and I hope is clear to everyone why. The two players to my left also called. I am looking at the flop and I feel good about my drop. The next card is the ace of spade, I don't like to see that card but I see another flush posibility, and I still think my drop was OK. Trips don't beat a straight or a flush. UTG bets, they all call. River card is the 7h. Now I am upset. UTG bets and the guy to my right calls, the other two fold. He shows 8c 4d, the caller folds, and does'nt show his cards, probably he had a pair of sixes or lower. UTG was a young player and I don't think he really knew how to play this game. I gave everyone too much credit and I am sick about it. I need somebody to tell me that I played this hand correctly, otherwise, I quit poker today. I mean it.
Beginner,
I don't know the texture of the table where you were playing and I am by no means an expert, but I might have raised on the flop just to see peoples reaction and if that gets the two to my left to fold giving me position even better. I don't go into a flop like that thinking that everyone has flopped a st8 or a 4 flush draw. I get real aggressive with my overs and see how people react. At a low limit like this I will be reraised by the st8 and just passivly called by the draws. The turn is an A so now I feel like i'm in till the end. But like I said I wasn't there so I don't know the table. I wouldn't quit poker if I were you over one laydown, if someone would have had the str8 or the flush would you have been this discouraged? I think you played the hand rather timidly on the flop, but I'm not a winning player so what do I know? Good luck. Just my very humble opinion.
Kevin
Do yourself a favor quit and take up golf.
If you are gonna 2nd guess your plays like that you might as well. Only thing that matters when you make a decision in poker are the cards and situation at the "time" the decision is made. Not what falls later.
You had to play this hand based on the knowledge you had of the players involved. Are they the type to play a draw strongly or the type to slow play a flopped straight - you could have easily been looking at TJ - fold was OK but 2nd guessing yourself isn't.
I probably would have raised the flop to be a little surer about what I was up against in time if you continue to play you will understand you have to poke and prod around some times before you muck.
BTW - the "gusto" was probably a tell you misunderstood.
By misunderstanding "gusto" do you mean the famous acting weak when strong and acting strong when weak?
Well - it would have a lot to do with his demeanor at the table. But yeah - if a guy is acting differently all of a sudden it could mean one of 2 things one is very good for you the other is very bad - it's just got to be figured out.
If folding what would have been a winner does an emotional number on you, then you are in deep trouble in the card room.
Quit. It will be better for you in the long run. If anyone else tells you that you played this hand correctly make sure you get them to quit along with you. There is safety in numbers.
Vince
nt
Vince, why on earth would you want beginner to take others with him/her when they quit.
Please limit your answers within the proper scope.
Tomorrow I'll show up at my cardroom and half the players (the ones I want to see) may not be there.
Really, sometimes you just don't seem to think before you type!
;-)
"sometimes you just don't seem to think before you type!"
Sometimes! Ha, if thinking were a requirement I would have to stop posting.
vince
hehe, couldnt resist
I can't tell you that you played it correctly.
I think you HAVE to raise on the flop here, you just can't read everyone immediately for a straight. If you get reraised, you can start to worry about 2-pair, sets and straights.
I don't think any of your opponents would have reraised you in this situation.
You played this one wrong. However, you laid down bullets on the flop. Being able to make lay-downs like this in the right situation is a strength. Here, you played incorrectly. Many other players will play this equally wrong, by cold-calling a bet and a raise in this situation with AA. Now, even laying down to a raise here may be wrong, but calling with that hand is certainly the worst possible play in this situation.
The key to winning poker is playing tight-aggressive or alternatively loose-aggressive (if the table "allows" you to). Tight-aggressive means playing good cards strong until someone else indicates by a raise that the demands for 'good hand' in a given situation have now increased, as a raise from someone else often indicates a better hand than you would've thought someone had when you bet out or raised.
AA is a good hand pre-flop. Raise. AA is a good hand if someone else is indicating strength by re-raising you. Raise.
On a 7-8-9 rainbow flop, AA is still a good hand in a five-way pot. Raise. If someone re-raises, it garanties almost 100% a better hand than AA. You've collected valuable information. Could a board-pair or a set save you? Consider that strongly, because you're getting good odds to call for one small bet if that is the issue, and very very poor odds if someone has a made hand. And the thing here is, if you catch your two pair or set on the turn, you'd like to be comfortable enough to raise again here. However, no-one re-raise your flop raise, it's most certainly pay-day for you, and you can safely bet out on the flop.
A sidenote here is that the caller between you and the flop bettor is actually very good news for you. Say flop bettor has flopped two bottom pair and is not likely to re-raise a raise from you, even though he's ahead. Now the caller in-between is almost certainly trailing badly, at least to your hand or on a draw. His money is free to play with and allows you some space to play more aggressively. Playing second best hand in a four or five-way pot is much much better than playing second best hand heads-up!
lars
It sounds to me like you wanted the pocket aces to lose. I've been in that mindset before and it bites. Every big pair gets cracked for days, then here they come again, KK. What disaster will befall me now? How can I be so unlucky? And the flop ain't even flopped yet.
In the meantime, there are decisions to be made, as usual. But how can I make the best decisions when my mind is clouded by thoughts of past and future doom?
Obviously, I can't. Neither can you or anyone else mired in self pity and pessimism. Get your head right first, however long that takes, then come back.
Tommy
You probably thought "Hey with this board Iīm definitely going to get drawn out, so why not discard right now!"
Perhaps you forgot that you only had 4 opponents, hmm?
Was the player betting with "gusto" acting? If you think so then raise and try to limit the field to just you and him. It was certainly better for the UTG to bet in this case rather than check and call you
Raising will give you more info than calling.
Of the three options you had calling is the worst. Raising or Folding is a "depends" kind of question.
Once you fold, the hand is over for you. Right or wrong! Now is the time to watch the play and get a read on your opponents.
Poker is not about the cards; it's about the other players.
If you plan to improve your game then I suggest you stick around, learn, and enjoy playing.
If not, then I suggest quitting is the most pragmatic thing to do.
BetTheDraw hit the nail on the head for this hand - UTG had the choice of betting 1 unit, or calling your bet and any raise - maybe he thought you might fold, too, if he bet. Once he bet, as others have said, you should have raised. If he called, I doubt if he would have bet on the turn, almost whatever it had been. You would then have had the choice to take a free card or bet, depending what turned. You should go back to play him, now that you have learned a little more about his thinking.
Hey, you played the hand great, so don't quit. But next time you could play the hand even better by realizing that if the initial bettor had flopped a straight he may have been more inclined to check to the original raiser and would wait to fourth street to get his raise in.
I'm more inclined to believe that a fold is only "great" against opponents you "know" have at minimum a set in this position.
With the flush/str8 potential out there I think the laydown is OK if against known weak players who may have the TJ or 56.
Against an unknown field, I like the raise to gain info and position considerering you may be best. (especially with the acting by UTG).
Beginner may have played OK but certainly not "great"!
Read beginner's post. Now pretend Mason doesn't want beginner to quit. What would he say?
Seriously, if the guy wants to quit after this little escapade then maybe he should.
What'll he do when he gets drawn out on again and again and again (u get the idea).
I think Mason should have said "The fold was OK but ...". Let's not pretend we think beginner played this hand great. It's too condescending.
However, I know what you mean.
The laydown was fine...put your money in with a better hand. This is not the upper limit games. There are multiple draws and it's pretty easy to be up against 2 pair. The board is almost as ugly as can be. The fact that he would have made a full house is irrelevant.
nt
Interesting...
A dozen people take the time to respond to your post to tell you what you did wrong, and you thank the one person who validates your mistake by giving you bad advice.
A typical case of "tell me what I want to hear" syndrome that is so prevalent on these advice forums.
I'm sorry, but maybe quitting is your best option.
WGB: Are we permitted to disagree in this forum? Several players in this forum think my drop was correct, they include Poker Prodigy and MASON MALMUTH!, whom I respect greatly. I just like the way P P said it. Not playing this hand was not my idea. I read it in a book that gives you this exactly same example of a flop when NOT to play AA and fold. I can look it up for you. Like PP said, wait for another time when your Aces are strong. And another thing, I am going to wait three months, I am going to put the same flop in this forum, with the same aces, but this time the turn will be the Tc and the river the 8d, and I am sure that a lot of you will agree with me that it was a good drop, including you! I like Jim Bryer in this forum, he has been so helpful to me and never trying to secong guess me, just poker, The way it should be. If you think that I need your approval for anything you are mistaken. I believe that raising the flop is a very good play but folding is just as good. Of course when I saw the ace on the turn the first thing that came to my mine was: I shoul have raised the flop. I am not a moron. May be I was wrong to shout thank you, I did not mean anything by it. I did not mean to offend anybody. I am thankful to everyone for the advise I get in this forum, including you. But don't thing you are the greatest player on earth or the best person, because you are not!
nt
Beginner, you better read Mason's post again.
He was trying to be charitable and diplomatic (granted, not one of my finer qualities).
Restated, Mason essentially said: It was OK to fold, but doing the opposite (raising) is better.
That translates logically to "Folding is wrong". In poker, when you don't take the best course of action you have made a mistake.
I read Jim's response to you the other day. I believe he said essentially what I said, except I used the word "automatic" and he used the word "manditory" (or vice versa?).
Just one more point I left out of my original post: You seemed to be most afraid of the flopped straight rather than the flopped trips, which in my opinion are more likely if you are in fact beaten at this point. Not many players play J10 under the gun, let alone 56. Surely you don't believe it is correct to fold an overpair to a flush draw. Or do you?
If you fold overpairs every time the flop is anything but Q72 rainbow you will grow old and broke.
Scott response on Sunday, 4 Feb., 2001, 12:27 p.m., thank you. When you asked me if I fold to a flush draw with aces, my answer is: this flop is a lot stronger than that. I just got home, I am sleepy, I will get back to you later.
Terrible comment about Mason. He does not deserve that. I would like to read your books so I get to know better. Peace.
Should read: get to know you better. Peace.
It hurts to see some players on this forum don"t treat you with the respect you deserve. But, be sure that some of us do. Good luck.
Don't worry, I'm use to it.
As far as this respect thing goes, I would not worry too much about those who don't give "deserved" respect. I mean if Mason can't get no, why worry if someone who goes by the handle "beginner" can't get no! What gets respect here is intelligent debate supported by reasons for what you are saying. Those who produce intelligent posts get the respect of most of the people on this forum who are worth worrying about. And no matter how good your posts are, or how well thought out your arguements are, some people just won't give you any respect no matter what you do or how good your writings are. Screw them, it's not worth your time to worry about them. I'm sure Mason already knows this. beginner - learn it and take it to heart.
Dave in Cali
Dave in Cali: Please read Talbo's post of 2 Feb., 2001, at 3:03 pm and Bet the Draw's post of 2 Feb., 2001, at 6:21 pm. Those comments go beyond poker, to me they are insulting, They are second guessing Mason's intentions with his comments to me, in the worst way. It hurts to see it, I am only stating my feelings. That is all. Thank you for your post, Dave, I think it was great. Beginner.
beginner,
Please show me in my post (given below) where I show disrespect to MM. Mason had stated that you played "great". I suggested that you didn't play "great".
Coming from Mason, BECAUSE of the respect I have for his opinion, I wanted to comment on his post. Now please show me what might cause you to hurt so much for MM.
------PREVIOUS POST------
"I'm more inclined to believe that a fold is only "great" against opponents you "know" have at minimum a set in this position.
With the flush/str8 potential out there I think the laydown is OK if against known weak players who may have the TJ or 56.
Against an unknown field, I like the raise to gain info and position considerering you may be best. (especially with the acting by UTG).
Beginner may have played OK but certainly not "great"!"
x
Dear BTD: You know I like you, please don't be offended. In your post of Feb 2, at 6:21 pm you are agreeing with Talbo. you said: "It's too condescending. However, I know what you mean" I feel MM is only trying to help me. That is it. That is all. Comments about his intentions are not needed it. IMHO. Good luck.
Ah, it was the response to Talbot you didn't like.
This is interesting 'beginner'. You see you are the one assigning a particular motive to MM.
Talbot suggested for us to consider that MM doesn't want you to quit. This seems OBVIOUS since MM states "don't quit".
It seems you must be assuming that I think MM would want you to keep playing because you are a bad player. Even Talbot did not say this.
I certainly did not! I agreed that MM created a post intended to cause you NOT TO QUIT. That is what you asked for in your original post.
As for the rest. I care not whether you like me. I post if I have something to add. I certainly do not need others telling me what I should or shouldn't post or what my motives are.
Question my motives if you like but please don't state them for me.
Thanks
You are insane!!!!
"You are insane!!!! "
This is quite possible beginner. who am I to judge that?
Anyway, enough of this stuff. I have decided not to bother defending myself against other posters. Look where it leads to.
Email me if you wish to discuss this further for any reason.
PS i'm not that prompt at read my BetTheDraw email but I do read it.
Good Luck
beginner,
Please show me in my post (given below) where I show disrespect to MM. Mason had stated that you played "great". I suggested that you didn't play "great".
Coming from Mason, BECAUSE of the respect I have for his opinion, I wanted to comment on his post. Now please show me what might cause you to hurt so much for MM.
"Beyond Insulting"? Come On!
------PREVIOUS POST------
"I'm more inclined to believe that a fold is only "great" against opponents you "know" have at minimum a set in this position.
With the flush/str8 potential out there I think the laydown is OK if against known weak players who may have the TJ or 56.
Against an unknown field, I like the raise to gain info and position considerering you may be best. (especially with the acting by UTG).
Beginner may have played OK but certainly not "great"!"
Beginner:
those posts were not that bad, you will get MUCH worse if you post on the forum long enough. You have to keep in mind that when you post on a public forum like this, you are opening yourself up to a great deal of criticism and scrutiny, and not everyone will be super-nice or politically correct when they evaluate your writings. Many times they will be downright harsh, brutal, rude, or even just a plain a-hole.
Take Rounder for instance, he is generally pretty blunt and doesn't sugar coat anything. Many people take him for being super-rude. I don't think so, he is just strongly opinionated and does not like to beat around the bush. Sure, occasionally he probably IS rude, but the real measure of his presence on this forum is the content of the posts he writes, not his demeanor. I think he would be more popular if he were nicer, but that is not his goal. In the end I have no problem with him despite his rather harsh style because he is talking poker strategy and supporting his positions with reasons.
Now if someone is just plain talking trash, and is giving no meaningful support for what they are saying, then just blow them off. Trash talk gets no respect from me.
However, you will get harshly criticized if you post on the forum, get used to it. It's actually a good thing because it makes you re-evaluate your positions, and sometimes you will find that you were wrong and the person being harsh has a point. Personally, I really don't care how they put it, as long as they are talking poker strategy and providing reasonable arguements to back up what they are saying.
I have been posting on this forum for years and I still don't get no respect! Oh well, the sun will come up tomorrow just the same.
Dave in Cali
"bad, you will get MUCH worse if you post on the forum long enough"
Thanks, ... I think.
;-)
I think it takes a lot of balls to go online and state what you think with the intention of having someone try to tear apart you theories, concepts and arguments if they desire. I think it takes a lot of balls to put your money where you mouth is by depending on the above concepts to make rent and eat. I also think it takes a lot of balls to give that precious advice away in published books and these free discussions, which probably cost you money via the efforts to support this site. You could have kept all this information to yourself, which you earned with tremendous effort and no small risk. You could have spent more of your time playing poker rather than supporting this site. I also think it takes a rare sense of humility to stress the importance of reaching the best answer, rather than just winning the given argument. It is unfortunate that people do not give you the respect you deserve. I think this is due, oddly enough, to the high regard people hold you in. If you are the best theorist, people seeking a reputation will challenge you frequently. Some may know they can't win the argument and make irrelevant comments by resorting to cheap shots. These people are being rude guests. You have given me more than I could possible give back to you and I thank you for it. That is very selfless and tolerant of you. When you comment, I listen and I put MY money where your mouth is. I'm glad I do.
n/t
I agree. It's also possible that MM makes money from his books and from this site.
I'm responding only because it seems someone has suggested that I have no respect for MM (and I suppose DS). As far as Poker goes, nothing could be farther from the truth. As for general respect as people, I have read nothing that would cause me to question either their integrity.
Strange that I should have to bother to post such a defense as this. It is something that, after today, I am going to refrain from doing.
I suspect that my reputation is probably heavily tarnished over this only because I bothered to defend myself at all. You see, I do think I doth protest too much!
Regards
Mike N
beginner, you are definitely playing psyched out poker right now. A flop raise is mandatory with your big over pair and a large pot like this despite the scary board. You can certainly fold if a blank comes on the turn and you get serious heat.
Take a month off, and then drop down to a $2-$4 game or the cheapest game you can find. Play 100 hundred hours and see where you are at and how you feel.
Jim: What is playing "psyched out poker" and is a raise in this case to get a free card in the turn if I don't improve, even that I am not the last men to bet at this time? And would you raise in the same situation with AK, AQ, or any other high pair? Thank you, I respect your opinion. When I see this board with AA., what am I to think? Can I win AA alone or Do I need improvement? Bye.
By "psyched out poker" I mean that you are letting your bad run adversely impact your playing decisions. Pocket Aces are a much stronger holding even against this scary flop than having mere overcards. I would fold overcards in a New York minute given this board unless they were both Clubs. But when you have a big overpair in a situation like this you have a hand of immediate value and you want to raise to make anyone on a draw pay through the nose to take off a card here. Some guy on a one-card straight draw might decide to fold rather than call two bets cold with the possibility of further raising since he may figure even when he hits he will be splitting the pot.
Adversity has the effect of eliciting talents that in prosperous circumstances would have lain dormant.
Horace..Latin poet and satirist...
gl
..a liberal education.
Where did you get these? They're good.
...but think it through.
Every one who has responded plays at least a pretty good game. This isn't an accident. They very deliberately concentrated on playing well. You'll have to do the same thing if you want to play well.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right."
Henry Ford
I respect your opinion and everyone that plays well gets my respect, but I am not going to do anything if I don't understand why I am doing it. Some people are trying to see what kind of a player I am through this play. Do you think this is right? Please tell me if AA against this board will win most of the time. Or what percentage, after raising the flop, of course. Do you feel they need improvement? I think that to be a good poker player you have to use good judgement on every play, and not two plays are the same. Do you agree? If some day you or I, we are the best players in the world, still we won't play perfect poker all the time. Do you agree? thanks.
First of all slow down, relax and have faith in yourself. Nick Dandolos, the Nick the Greek of living legend, said that the difference between winners and losers is character. There is no one secret of winning poker. Yes, it's a game involving mathematics: just like a casino, you want to offer your opponents propositions that pay off at less than the true odds, and you have to learn how that is accomplished. But it's also a game of people and personalities. Your opponents are all driven by greed, and if they have any analytic sense at all, they gain predicability and act less like random morons. And you have to learn how to read them.
The number one rule for playing poker well is to pay attention. I recommend to you, if you want to play the game with anything like proficiency, that you learn it by combining modest play done involving your acute attention, with study of the same intensity you would employ for any other worthwhile endeaver.
And only you can decide if playing well is worth it to you.
Hate to tell you this, but you played it wrong.
You have to raise the flop here. It's automatic. Under the gun flopped straights don't come out betting in multiway pots. He's betting because he hopes you have big unpaired cards. Anyone with a flush draw or an open ended straight will at least call, and maybe raise. Don't be so afraid of flush draws. Your aces are better than a flush draw or a straight draw.
True, you will probably not end up winning this hand, but the times you do win will more than make up for the more frequent occasion when you lose.
Don't quit. Just play a little little smaller. 5-10 is too big for your skill level. Play for a few months on Paradise Poker's play money tables. It will soon be evident to you that raising is the only play here.
Good luck!
You can not get better, if you do not learn from your mistakes. This fold cost you the pot but if you take and use want you have learned form it, you will only get better. Good luck.
Thank you, best advise yet. You impress me very sure of yourself for your statement. If you are correct then I have been playing this hands wrong. New to me is to know that AA are favorites to straight and flushes draws. Is this true even when the whole flop is the same suit? Now let me ask you this: do you really think that I should drop to an other level just because I didn't raise this hand? Some other players agree with my play, they think that it was correct to fold. I am doing very well at this level, profit wise. I am winning, not much, but I am winning. The main reason I am winning is that now I'm playing conservative, some times, too conservative, I feel. Like in this case, you will agree. But then I am very agressive when I have a winning had. Thanks.
The reason I told you to move down for a while is because I made certain assumptions based on the context and content of your post:
1. I assumed with a posting name of "beginner" that you were in fact a beginner and should therefore learn the game at the cheapest level possible. It is possible to lose quite a bit of money playing 5-10.
2. I assumed from the language used in your post that you were a younger player (say, 18 to 22), and many younger players tend to play "over their head" financially.
3. I assumed you were a net losing player. Playing poker is fun. If you were breaking even or winning, I reasoned, why would you be contemplating quitting the game?
4. Folding AA in the situation you described is ludicrous, and I assumed that if you couldn't recognize that, then you were very likely making similarly obvious mistakes in other areas of your game.
If in fact you are making money or breaking even (based on meticulous records) after several hundred hours in this game, then there is of course no pressing reason to move to a more affordable limit. However if this is so, I reiterate that I am perplexed why you would be frustrated enough to consider giving up the game. Is it somehow interfering with your work, education, or personal life? I doubt very much that you've decided you no longer have interest in the game. If that were the case you wouldn't be posting here.
I'm afraid I must stick with my original assessment. If you want to take your game to the next level, you are going to have to be more receptive of advice from experienced players, rather than seeking validation from others at your level.
It is good to play tight. But "heroic laydowns" are not the way to go in holdem. This is especially true in multi-way pots that have been raised pre-flop. Your aces only have to win a fraction of the time to turn a profit.
I would be very interested in seeing the passage from the book you mentioned in which you were advised to fold pocket aces in this situation. If in fact such a book is actually in your possession, I would advise you to burn it at your earliest opportunity.
Good luck.
Bill
Thank you for taking the time Bill. Some times I win big pots with AA or KK, but some times I lose big with them too. What I was trying to do in this case, was to avoid falling in a trap, drawing dead, if you will. I am greedy in my playing, I mean I am trying to win as much as I can with each hand. At the same time I am also trying to save money whenever I can. It is just that simple. I will play AA, in the same situation, the way you advise, in the future. I like the part where you tell me, that they don't have to win all the time in this situation to turn a profit. As far as my goals in poker, they are really simple: I want to be a good 10-20 HE player. I started playing 2-4, then moved up to 3-6, I am now playing 5-10, but I go back to 3-6 sometimes. Some days 3-6 is better than 5-10, more action. I have never played 10-20 yet, even that people I know, that I consider inferior to me, poker wise, play 10-20 regularly. As far as my name "beginner", it is the correct name, but you would not consider me a biginner, since I been playing for a while. I am a biginner because like this play, I did not played it correctly, and as long as I am making this kind of errors I will be a biginner to myself. Like in life in general, there are just to many things I don't understand why they are the way they are. I am a beginner there too. I am a little older than 18-22, I did not mean to give the impression that I was young. As far as my quote from the book, I will look it up, it will take me sometime, because I have many books, If you are not in this forum, I will email it to you.---- I played this hand the other day: I'm in middle position with KJo, UTG limps before me, , I call, two more limpers, button raises, UTG reraises, I call, call, call, button cups it, everybody calls. 5-10 game, huge pot. The flop comes K x Tr, I flopped top pair, but of course with this hand, I'm not happy with my kicker. UTG checks, I bet, everyone calls. Turn is another x. UTG checks, I bet, call, call, now UTG raises. What am I to think, that some how I lost this hand, that most likely I'm out-kicked. I called, so does everyone else. The river is another K, UTG checks, I checked, (I din't bet thinking that he may be check raising me again. I don't know if this play was correct) everybody checks. I win with the 3 Kings. He shows AJo. He was going for an inside straight. These are the kind of playing that drive me crazy. WGB, I hope to hear from you in the future in this forum. I respect your opinion. Good luck.
In the hand you describe in this most recent post, I would normally fold KJ to a raise and a reraise, unless the players making the raises are both maniacs. When you call a reraise you sometimes end up paying 4 bets, which is what happened here. The problem with KJ in this situation is that it is very often dominated by raising hands, let alone reraising hands. If even one of the raisers has any one of the following hands, you are drawing too thin to justify continuing in the hand: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ or KQ. Quite frequently you will be up against *two* of these hands, making your chances very slim indeed (God forbid, one of your opponents might even have suited aces!). Often in these cases, "hitting" the flop is the worst thing that can happen to you. It will just hook you and end up costing you money.
In general, play very strong when you likely have the best starters. Back away easily when you are very likely dominated.
KJ in middle position is a hand that looks good but isn't that strong of a hand. In a passive loose game (emphasis on passive) I would probably play it.
When it comes re-raised back to me, it's a clear fold in just about any game situation I can imagine.
Regards
Basically, all you did was not call or raise a single bet in a game of cards. The fact that you would have won the hand as it eventually panned out is totally irrelevant. If the turn card had been an 8 instead of an Ace, you would have been congratulating yourself on your foresight. What happens after you fold has no meaning. As another writer said, when you are not in a hand, sit back, watch, and learn something about your opponents. If this is the only hand in the game that you would have won if you hadn't folded, you are a better player than most.
Mike Haven.
I love you. Good luck.
beginner -
Can't tell you how many times I've folded a winning hand, especially against terrible opponents....and I haven't been playing that long! However, you have to realize what your goal in poker is. If it's to stay with those oh-so-lovable wired Aces until the river in the face of a possibly made straight or flush draw, then you won't be a winning poker player. You made the right decision...fold those guys without hesitation. When that situation comes up again, fold them AGAIN, knowing that you are 23:1 to hit an Ace on the turn, and even that's not good enough because you need the board to pair also...and EVEN then you don't have the nuts.
Good poker players, IMO, are like the House with an aggressive twist. Could you imagine sitting at a blackjack table, and the dealer raises you when she shows a ten and you have sixteen? Or twelve? She knows that she has the edge, and she presses it. Sure, you MAY stay with your obviously beaten hand and hit, but more often than not, you'll lose your money. The BJ dealer knows she is destined to lose a certain amount of hands. But the House knows that she will take home the money over the long run, just like a craps table or a roulette wheel. How do you think they build those huge casinos? Good poker players have more of an advantage than the house does in any of these games, if they play the game right. They can get out of losing or marginally winning situations, just by folding. They can press their advantages as hard as they want to when the cards are in their favor.
Your goal should be to make money over the long run. That's it. Meaning: play tight, but aggressive. Have the best hand, the best draw, or GET OUT OF THE HAND. Know that you will not win every hand, and you will not win every session. Know that bad beats mean that your opponents are chasing you, and they are playing against the house edge. Eventually, they will give you their chips. Sure, it gets tougher as the limits get higher...and pot limit/no limit is a different game. But limit hold'em is a mechanical grind. The less sophisticated your opponents, the more straightforward and "correct" you can be in your play.
Cheer up and thank the poker Gods that you have players like that at your table.
Scott
Scott: that is just the kind of player I want to be. I agree with you 100 %. Thank you.
Last comment from me.
Most of us have been where you are. I'm going to say something that may offend you, but it is not intended as such.
You have read up and have grasped the basics of good poker. Not only that but you can comment intelligently on what you've learned.
You are, however, not yet a strong poker player. This is exactly how many of the current "good" players once were.
At every level (except the very top) there will be others of superior skill and knowledge. You are at the stage of "You don't know what you don't know". Again, this is where almost every good player has to be at one point. (Guess what. I think it's kind of scary once you realize how much work it is to get better than just good).
Do not complain about about the play of others. It's nothing but bad beats and we've heard them before. Don't quit, but certainly take breaks when needed and even when not needed. After all, how do you really know if you need a break from the game.
Whining also marks you as a expert at how to lose. It may be possible that you need to go through this phase. Stong, experienced players seldom sit around and talk about their bad beats.
Good Luck beginner
Bet the draw: I read your comments in this forum all the time, and I find them very smart and useful. I respect your opinion about me and I hope you are right, that some they I will be a good player. You are right also about the changes we go through during our progress in this poker world. I remember in the very beginning I was a terrible player and I didn't know it. I am always thinking that calling a bet is sometime the worst play. In this case I desided to fold instead of raising. I didn't fold because I thought he flopped a straight, just that this board was to dangerous. I am always raising my big cards, I follow Jim Brier's advises. I was not offended it by your comments, I thank you for taking the time. I will continue reading your contributions to this forum, and I will take them like they are from a friend.
n/t
nt
I spent 2 hours jumping back and forth between these 2 posts.
BTD, sorry, it won't happen again. n/t.
Now, I just need to find a corner in this round room.
Scott: I will answer your response later today, I am too tired now. Thank you.
With play like this I would say never quit poker. In fact you're officially invited to my game!
Seriously though, you're like a guy in my game. He folds, then when the flop hits his 8 3 with 8 8 3 he picks up his cards furious about it. It's bullshit. If that happened to me I wouldn't look at the 8 8 3 twice. The only thing I could possibly wish for in that situation is that I was psychic so I could guess the cards to come.
Flopping 8 8 3 is damn near the ONLY flop you want with 8 3 unsuited. Those cards aren't worth playing before the flop, so everything after the flop is irrelevant. You're in a different situation here obviously, but you shouldn't be angry about the Ace flopping. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
You should be pissed because you couldn't read your opposition enough to tell what they had. Was the raiser the type of guy that would slowplay a monster hand? If so then you should've put his flop raise on a pair or possibly two pair, trying to drive everyone else out so they'll stand up.
If he's not a slowplayer and he bets his hand accordingly on any given round (and his bluffing isn't all that unpredictable) then maybe the fold would've been appropriate. Of course the player I just described wouldn't be much of a challenge anyway.
As far as quitting poker, go ahead and try buddy.
I see AA losing so many times and I also see AA overplayed most of the times. Of course, we don't know how many times AA are being forded either, right? I agree with you, that folding AA in this case was wrong, and I will play it different the next time. I hope to see better results. I don't agree with you comparing it with a 8 3o play. As far as knowing the players, I did not. I was just seated at this table. But I never do anyway, I play in AC, and that is just like playing in the Long Island Expressway. Thank you for your comments. They were most useful. Good luck.
beginner,
Do you know the concept "Results Oriented"? If not you should search the archives and read up.
This refers to your comments about "next time and expecting better results".
Regards
Hey Beginner,
First of all, I'm not going to say that you played the hand correctly, but I'm also not going to advise you to quit. Most of the responses to your post have provided some very insightful comments and advice. I'm in line with most of the others and would advise you to first reevaluate why you play poker in the first place. Is it for the challenge, money, fun, or a combination of them? After you answer that question, you should have a better idea of where you're at. Secondly, the tone of your post signals to me that you may be on a bad streak as of late. You may just want to take some time off from poker or maybe move to a lower limit (although the fish there can often suck out on you). I personally don't think you need to act in haste and quit poker immediately. You sound like you're trying to make the right plays, but come up a bit unlucky. Just keep fine tuning your skills and I think you'll be fine in the long run.
I'm no expert player. I have only been playing for the past 6 years (and was at best a very average player the first 3-4 years) and have only read excerpts from poker books and other sources of poker strategy. I consider myself to be pretty analytical and I've gained a lot of knowledge from this forum. From this, I can now hold my own at the stakes that I'm comfortable with. Take it slow and have some patience. I think you'll do fine.
In regards to your AA hand, I think most of us agree that you played it wrong. However, once you fold a hand, it doesn't matter what happens on the turn and river. Would you have decided to not quit if the A didn't show up and someone showed you a flopped straight?
I remember a very similar situation I was in where I had AA in middle position in a loose 3-6 CA game. I raised and had about 5 or 6 callers. The flop came something like 9 10 J. My first reaction was "shit"; a reaction that was similar to yours. Someone in front bet and it was raised when it got to me. I decided that I would just call the 2 bets because I wasn't convinced that I was beat yet and just wanted to see what type of action would take place afterwards. Some of you guys may consider a 3 bet with my aces and others may even consider folding. Calling may have been the worst decision, but that's what I ended up doing. A couple of players behind called the 2 bets and there were no more raises. On the turn was a beautiful ace. Checked to me, I bet, and I get a couple of callers. The river was the dreaded 7! It gets checked around and my aces win. FYI, on the river, I would have called a bet and folded if there was a raise.
This story may not make you feel any better, but I want to let you know that I understand most of your thought process in the hand that you were in. I'm sure most of us have been in the situation before. You just gotta regain your confidence and rebound.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Jace
Jace: thank you for your post, you are a gentleman. I agree with you, I played it wrong, (and I know some players here think I did the right thing by folding), but I am convinced now that the correct play is to raise. Because I've learned that AA will show a profit in the long run in this situation, and I like the odds. At least, I should see the turn, and then make a more intelligent decision. I like your comments and I save them for future reference. Good luck, and I hope to hear from you again in this forum.
In my opinion you played correctly. You just weren't at the table long enough to know that the other player were morons.
Hi there. Mason adviced me to post this little piece I wrote at the 'Internet Poker' section as it's more of a strategy thread, and I agree...
So here goes:
someone said: "The stat that puts me off a Holdem game is a relatively high (30%-40% 10 handed) of players seeing the flop, but a relatively low (less than 10 small bets) average pot size. This game means no or very few post flop mistakes. There may be a way to beat this type of game, but I certainly haven't figured it out yet!"
Does everyone disagree with this? Taking ONLY low-limit online Hold'em games into consideration here, my experience in totally different. Many players seeing the flop and low average pots suggests (at least at these levels), loose-passive games. What often happens when I join these tables, is that regardless of me having a winning/losing session, the pots where I hit the flop with my quality pocket hand will often add up to two or sometimes three times the size of the usual average pots. Sometimes of course, someone's pair of Queens will hold up when I'm playing my nut flush draw strong, but you catch my drift. Good players do more betting for value. Simple as.
Now, can you really say that loose table with twice the average pot of the 'tightest' loose-preflop table is an easier table to beat? I'd say it only takes 2 table 'kings' to double average pots. By this I mean aggressive players in loose/passive games. Aggressive players, unless total maniacs, will often be winners in games like these.
I love loose/passive!
lars
Don't tell everybody -- they'll all want some. I look for the same thing but it doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion. If you take a look, I pretty much guarantee you that the game with the longest list at any limit up to $10/$20 will be the one with the biggest pots regardless of the flop percentage.
At limit holdem when half the money goes in before the flop, it means the opponents are NOT betting NEARLY enough after the flop. Just because the opponents are making few calling mistakes DOESN'T mean they are also making few betting mistakes.
Play along and take more free/cheap cards than you give.
- Louie
Recent visit to Las Vegas. I'm a 15-30, 20-40 holdem player normally but when in LV I always try a little Let It Ride or Caribbean Stud for the jackpot opportunities - just to hit some shortterm lucky streak and make a big hand with my $1 chip in the bonus slot.
Anyway, one night after having played holdem (successfully I should add :) ) all day I decided to play Caribbean stud for an hour or so before bed. I changed 2 black chips into red and silver dollar chips - betting $10 up front and $20 behind and my bonus $1 chip in the bonus slot. Nothing major happened for 30 minutes and I was about even when I looked down at my 5 cards and saw 8910JQ of diamonds - BEAUTIFUL! My $1 chip was in the slot and I doublechecked the red light hadnt malfucntioned. Call it paranoia!!
Anyway jackpot (for Royal Flush) was $106,000 (plus some small change) so I was getting $10,600 or 10% for the straight flush - by the way the dealer didnt qualify so no payout at the back. But I wasnt worried I was very happy with the 10.6k - who wouldnt?
Now I come from Europe but have visited the US over a hundred times and Vegas maybe 20 times so I know about and respect the tipping/toking culture in the US and the 'customary' 10% tip for the dealer in this situation.
All these jackpots take time to get paid on. They rerun their security cameras, check the cards etc etc to make sure there was no funny stuff involved. In this case it took about 45minutes.
The pit boss told the other 6 players at my table that the table was suspended until they verified my straight flush. One nice, elderly lady at my table says, in a nice way (knowing I was a foreigner and maybe thinking I didnt know that tipping the dealer was customary), "dont forget to tip the dealer!". I nodded my head and smiled back at her in agreement.
THEN however another lady at the table says "and don't forget the other players" - implying it was the done thing to share winnings like this with the other players at the table. Now THIS was new to me and I was a bit perplexed. Anyway, even though the game was broken up 3 of them waited at the table until all the paper work was sorted and I was paid $7420 after the mandatory 30% tax was deducted. I tipped the dealer $700 and I gave the 3 other remaining players $200 each which 2 of them seemed very happy with. But the woman who suggested I tip the other players in the first place seemed somewhat disappointed that I 'only' gave her $200 - she did thank me but it wasnt a warm or sincere thank you.
This led me to believe that I should have given her nothing such was her attitude. The game restarted but I took my chips and left - lightening doesnt strike twice in the same place plus I was ready for bed anyway. I should have been elated at my win but the attitude of that woman made me angry and I'm pretty sure that had she won it she wouldnt have shared a penny of it with the other players.
So this leads me to 2 questions:
Question (1) is: Should I have tipped the other players? Is this done? If so, how much is 'acceptable'?
Question (2) is: Do other people believe that a 10% tip (after tax is deducted) is too high for the dealer? I heard other players saying they only tip 5% of a jackpot or minijackpot.
I'd like to know for future reference. The same situation could arise in a bad beat jackpot during a holdem game in a cardroom. I know in that case the other players at the table all get a cut but how about the dealer?
I'd like to know the answers to these questions so to be politically correct should I be so fortunate again to find myself in a similar situation.
Thanks in advance for all responses and suggestions.
Tipping $ 700 is lot to much. You shouldn't tip the other players at all. I think 150 maybe 200 for the dealer is more then enough. If you are not an US citizen.. why you pay the tax ? I am from Germany and h