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Typical/slightly loose $10-$20 game. Loose limper UTG, good player to his left raises, 2 fold, cold call, decent high limit player 3 bets, I'm on the button with black JJ.
I don't like my hand much, but it looks like blinds are all calling, so probably eight way action, so I figure I can stay in mostly looking for the set. I call. Anyone disagree?
Sure enough, blinds call. Flop is KhTd9h. Everyone checks to me. I bet. My thinking is: 1) I might be in the lead. 2) Believe it or not, a couple of the players would fold a Q here, which gives me 2 more jacks as outs. 3) I may be able to take a free card on the turn if I want.
I think this bet is really close, quite possibly should not be made. Any comments/criticism?
All but the small blind call.
Turn is 8s. Amazingly, everyone checks to me again. What would you do?
I bet for about the same reason, with more outs. I'm pretty sure this was a mistake. Comments?
All call to see a river of 3c. Everyone checks, I decide to check. Comments?
The problem with this hand is that the other players treated the play like a low limit game. The pre flop betting indicated some strong hands and although calling to see the flop with JJ was not a bad play, you should have probably checked it through. Not only are you drawing dead to a top pair with a weak kicker, you could also be setting yourself up for a trap with someone who flopped the nut straigt. Its a tough call. I think it really depends on how your opponents were playing throughout the night. We could go on for ever debating about the correct play. But all in all, I personally think the correct play was to check it through, or only bet on the flop, then when you saw 8 people call check it through to the end cuz mid pair is just not strong enough.
On the turn I think betting is hopeless almost every time in this type of situation. You have a great draw and should take the free card. Since their was so much action before the flop and then it came as coordinated as it did, there are just too many ways to lose. You could easily have fallen into a checkraise which you are going to obviously have to call. When the pot is so big you can't make everybody fold anyway.
I think that you have to call pre-flop if you don't think that you will be re-raised; this didn't happen so you must have a pretty good read on the table.
The post-flop play is surprising given your description of your opponents and the number of players in the hand. I would have been worried about getting check-raised on the flop or turn but would have bet out as you did.
I would have bet the river hoping to get a better hand (e.g., QQ) to fold. Your opponents probably put you on top pair with a strong kicker (AK or KQ). You may lose to a hand like top pair with a weak kicker but that's the breaks...
Because of the muti-way action, I think you were correct to call the flop. And I agree you must go for the set. If it comes one high card and two babies, you don’t want to be caught between two big pairs. If there were not the extra callers, you should fold to a solid raiser and reraiser.
I like your flop bet. If you get checked raised, you are up against the king. But you didn’t and you may be in the lead. But I don’t see anyone folding a queen here, especially since it will also be with a card that pairs the board.
Your turn bet is close. I don’t think you get checked raised. A big hand would be afraid to give a free card. With so many callers and a good draw, you might as well bet. At this point there is value because of the callers.
Your river check may be weak. I think you bet for value here. A ten or eight might keep you honest. And if a king calls, well it won’t happen as much.
Regards,
Rick
I agree completely with Rick. I think you should have betthe river, but I probably would have checked (I'm a chicken). I think you have a good chance of winning or buyingthe pot. What happened?
I feel the preflop call is probably wrong. You can get reraised, you don't know if it will be 8-way action yet, you can be up against a bigger pair, and you may well have to dodge all overcards. With the reraising and potential for capping your implied odds are going down fast. You did say the reraiser was a decent high limit player.
M,
Let's take DeadBart's word for it and assume at least one blind will call. The other two raisers and the cold caller of the raise will almost definitely stay in. Let's leave the loose limper in. So he should have about five opponents (I'm not sure how he came up with seven in the original).
Now this hurts the implied odds in that you are starting out paying a big price with a probable overpair out against you. But on the other hand, you will really collect if you hit a set. So the big number of bets pre-flop should generate a tremendous amount of post flop action.
That being said, the key is not to get trapped paying off if you are between an overpair and a high pair.
Regards,
Rick
I agree with what you say but still feel it may be a mistake to call preflop. If it gets capped I doubt if the greater action that might be generated (no guarantee here) will completely compensate for the higher price you paid. In addition, the Jack is a pretty key card to big straights, almost as key as the Ten, so if you hit your set the larger pot will encourage people to draw to any type of straight with the Jack on board (even possibly backdoor straights). At that point you would probably like all straight draws to be folding, not calling.
"But on the other hand, you will really collect if you hit a set."
But shouldn't you adjust a little for those times you will really lose when someone flops a bigger set?
DeadBart-
I may be a little weak/tight in this area, but when a good player raises from early and gets re-raised by another good player, I don't like JJ in this spot.
On the other hand, from the way this hand playes out, it doesn't look like these were tough players. A board of KT9 w/2 hearts for $30 pre-flop and all anyone can do is check/call?
You don't mention if one of your jacks was a heart. I think this is important for how you play the turn. I can't fault you for taking the lead since no one else did. This is just good aggressive play on your part. Although, I think some of the more conservative posters may disagree.
Kevin
.
Interesting comments; they seem to be divided greatly. For anyone who hasn't yet commented, don't be afraid to post your opinion just because I've put up the results.
The big blind showed first, T8c to win the pot with two pair. The first raiser had the other 2 jacks :(. The reraiser mucked quickly and claimed she had AK. I'm not sure I believe her, but I've noticed before that she does have trouble with multiway action; maybe she was afraid with so many callers.
To answer some of the other comments, I wanted to mention that I bet the turn again to try to get out anyone with a Q, as some of these people would definitely fold a gutshot on the turn even though the pot is huge. Of course someone who randomly has a 6 will still make a straight if a jack comes, but I think it is worth a try.
Also, I had a pretty good read on the table and was fairly certain noone would checkraise the turn.
David
1. I would have folded JJ to a 3 bet regardless of the alleged pots odds.
2. Since you did play the hand, I like your bet on
the flop. If you get checkraised, it's an easy laydown. Plus, you are right, maybe you do have
the best hand.
3. I hate your bet on the turn. Take the free card and go for a straight with one card left.
4. Good check on the river.
I recently played in a 20-40 game with a bunch of regulars who play 10-20. I am curious about a few hands which I think I may have misplayed.
Hand 1: I just won the previous hand UTG with AQ beating the BB who held AJ. This player who is usually solid opened with a (steam??) raise UTG. I folded AJs and would have won a nice sized pot had I played. Was folding preflop a mistake? I was expecting 1 or 2 more callers and possibly the blinds calling. I feared being outkicked if I flopped an ace and the possibility of a preflop reraise behind me.
Hand 2: I'm in the BB with KJ. 2 limpers call (EP and LP) early position is tight aggressive and late position is weak aggressive. SB calls. Flop is KdJh9s rainbow. Checked around to LP who bets, sb folds, I raise, EP calls, LP reraises, I cap, and EP calls. Turn is 4c. I bet and both players call. River is 7s. I check, EP bets and we both call. EP had QTo and LP had AA.
Hand 3: I have AA UTG and raise, button and blinds call. Flop comes Th9s7c. Checked to me, I bet, button raises and BB calls. I thought of reraising, but just called. Turn is 7d and BB bets into us. We both call. River is a Qh and again BB bets and gets two calls. BB had 7h3h(?????) and button had Ts9s.
Any feedback is appreciated...
Hand #1- I like your thinking. I don't think you will go too wrong by folding in this spot.
Hand #2- This is just one of those situations where there's no way to avoid losing some chips. I think you did what you were supposed to do. Take control and lead with your top 2 pair. When you don't get raised on the turn, it's a good sign. Only if both EP AND LP were extremely good tough players, could you consider not making the overcall on the end.
Hand #3- This is the only hand where I don't necessarily like your play. This is not the best flop for AA, but I think you need to find out what's out there. If you raise the flop, the button re-raises and the BB SHOULD fold his 73! You can't like it, but it gets the BB out, and now you shut down. When the board pairs on the turn, this probably doesn't hurt your hand if you are already beat, and may have helped it. Raising the flop, most likely gets you the pot. That's my take anyway.
Kevin
With regards to hand #3, if the BB calls $20 cold initially he is certainly going to call another $20 cold. I think our hero is destined to lose the hand however he plays it.
Bruce
Hand 1: If you suspect that UTG is weak, why not reraise? This would isolate EP and give you position. AJs falls in the middle range of the second group in S&M card rankings and is a playable hand against a raise.
Hand 2: Your check raise from early position is a good play. When the EP cold calls a raise you have to respect the fact he may have a completed hand with this coordinated board and is slow playing his hand, especially since there are no flush possibilities. I would not have capped the betting on the flop and just called the raise by the button and shown the hand down. I don't think you will lose anybody based on the flop betting. Tough luck.
Hand 3: When you show strength pre-flop and on the flop and are raised by a late position player, you usually have to consider a strong hand, especially with this coordinated board. When a bet out of no where comes from the BB when the board pairs, you most certainly are beat and could possibily be raised. I would lay down the hand.
Regards, Dugie
I am in Seat #3 as the big blind holding the 6h5h. #4 limps in under the gun and #7 raises to $60. #9 calls. I call for another $30. #4 calls. There is $260 in the pot and four players.
The flop is: Kh5s2c
I check my middle pair in this raised pot. #4 checks. #7, the pre-flop raiser, bets $30. #9 folds. I call for $30 with almost $300 in the pot with my 5 outer. #4 calls. There is $350 in the pot and three players.
The turn is: 6d
I check, planning to check-raise since #7 was the pre-flop raiser and bet the flop when it came King-high. But #4 checks. #7 checks. My plan failed.
The river is: Qs
I now bet $30 and only #7 calls. I win as he mucks.
Comments please.
Preflop and flop play in my book are fine. Your choice of going for a check-raise or leading on the turn really boils down to whether you think the initial raiser will bet or not. I really can't fault your play. One thing you have to take into consideration is the fact that I'm sure you have a tight image so when you call on the flop unless the raiser can beat a pair of Kings he probably will not bet. So if that's the case betting on the turn may be the best play. I assume you bet $60 on the river.
Bruce
I think you should bet out on the turn against an aggressive player who you think has a K. You may trap people in the middle and he likely will raise his K/good kicker. You can now re-raise and max out your hand. I've said this before, but I'm always a little slow to someone on a set, in this case KK.
Kevin
Apparantly, the pre-flop raiser did not have a K. He bet the flop to try to win the pot right there. With K -rag-rag there is a good chance that he would succeed. When he gets 2 callers, then he figures that someone has a pair, probably a K, if not that then a set. So takes the free card on the turn instead of trying to bluff again.
I would guess that UTG had a KJ or KT, or worse kicker. He flopped top pair, but knew that he could be out-kicked by #7. Also, he is out of position so he decides to check-call to induce #7 to bet a worse hand.
I think that you played it right, Jim. Going for the check-raise on the turn was the right play.
Steve Fiete
Against most opponents, I would have bet out on the turn in this spot. Seat 4 could easily have 2-3 outs against your hand, so I wouldn't want to risk giving him a free card. [There is less reason to worry about giving seat 7 a free card, since he would probably bet with most hands which were not drawing dead to you.] If seat 7 was the type who would lead-bet again on the turn with AQ/AJ, then he might also be the type to raise your turn bet with AK/AA.
Assuming this was a typical middle limit game and assuming you had a table image as a tight-aggressive player, wouldn't a check-raise on the flop be a better alternative? On the flop, when it is checked to #7 and #9 folds, you have a great opportunity to win the pot outright here with a check-raise, or at least go heads up with the raiser. An opponent would be hard pressed to call two bets with a pair lower than the King or a big Ace, which are precisely the hands you want to get rid of.
Even if you are called or re-raised in this spot, you are not limited to a five outer. Any 3 or 4 gives you a backdoor straight draw and any heart gives you a backdoor flush draw. I'm probably wrong here, but I calculate that to be 21 cards of the unseen deck that can help improve your hand. All of these extra outs adds greatly to the value of your hand, thus improving your chances of winning the pot. It is because of these extra outs, that I believe that a check-raise is the correct play on the flop. If the right card did hit the turn, then a case could be made for betting out(if you were only called on the flop) or a check-raise semi-bluff(if you were re-raised on the flop).
Also, if you had an image as a tight-aggressive player, playing this hand more aggressively would probably enhance your image. Showing down this hand would probably ensure future action on my better hands, leave more doubts in my opponents mind as to what I was holding, and less likely that my opponents would take "shots" at me on future hands.
I would have preferred there be at least one more limper to call the raise with 65suited from the big blind, but this call can by no means be deemed foolhardy. (Have you decided to play a bit less tight lately? Just a hunch.)
The backdoor flush draw combined with the possibility that the flop put you ahead argue for a call once #7 bet the flop.
I would have tried the checkraise play also since your two-pair is "camouflaged." Based on his check on the turn and call on the river, I'd say #7 held AQ. Had you bet the turn, I doubt he would have called. Hard to say what #4 called the flop bet with (A2suited?). Seems unlikely he would have called either had you come out firing on the turn.
Apparently, then, your check on the turn landed one more big bet than if you had foregone the checkraise attempt.
I like the way you played the hand.
One trouble with a check-raise on the flop is that the UTG player may have intended on check-raising and you can find yourself in a pot for 3 bets with 6 outs(backdoor flush). I like the call. If I thought there was a decent chance that I was ahead of the #7 hole I would check-raise, but if I thought I was behind here I would call.
I think that the reason the check-raise attempt failed on the turn was because your opponent knew that you called with *something* and he wasn't very strong. I occasionally make the play of counter stealing on the turn by lead betting after calling a bet on the flop with nothing, so I might go ahead and bet the turn with this hand to provide balance to my game.
In retrospect, knowing that your opponent didn't have a King, a check-raise on the flop would be correct. Having your hand between the other two players and not having any indications as to their holdings, I like the call. My experience has been, however, that it is usually worth putting heat on a player who likely has over-cards that will beat your hand if he continues in situations where the #7 hole might have something like AQ.
With #4 in the pot I would have bet the turn. Heads up with the raiser I would have checked the turn.
Jim:
I haven't read the other comments, but here are mine.
Mason
"I am in Seat #3 as the big blind holding the 6h5h. #4 limps in under the gun and #7 raises to $60. #9 calls. I call for another $30."
I agree with this call.
"#4 calls. There is $260 in the pot and four players."
The flop is: Kh5s2c
"I check my middle pair in this raised pot. #4 checks. #7, the pre-flop raiser, bets $30. #9 folds. I call for $30 with almost $300 in the pot with my 5 outer. #4 calls. There is $350 in the pot and three players."
You have a problem here. Your hand may be best. With that being the case, you may have wanted to consider leading with a bet. However, I frequently would check to watch the action. Given that you did this, I would strongly consider check raising. This raise would be especially good against a player who migh call your check raise with something like a pair of jacks, but then fold on fourth street unless he improves (or picks up a draw).
"The turn is: 6d
"I check, planning to check-raise since #7 was the pre-flop raiser and bet the flop when it came King-high. But #4 checks. #7 checks. My plan failed."
There's a lot to consider here. I certainly would go for the check raise against someone who is prone to bet again without having a king (or better). However, you should strongly consider betting since there is a good chance the before the flop bettor does not have a king. (If he does have something like AK he may raise after you bet so the two bets go in anyway.
"The river is: Qs"
"I now bet $30 and only #7 calls. I win as he mucks."
If you check here, and the other player checks, you are both telling the original raiser that you don't have a king, and probably don't have a queen. If he holds a queen, he should be inclined to bet it, especially if he is aggressive. I'm not saying it's right, but you should have considered going for a checkraise.
BB has 65s, flop is K52...Mason says "
You have a problem here. Your hand may be best. With that being the case, you may have wanted to consider leading with a bet. However, I frequently would check to watch the action. Given that you did this, I would strongly consider check raising. This raise would be especially good against a player who migh call your check raise with something like a pair of jacks, but then fold on fourth street unless he improves (or picks up a draw). "
1. What would you do if there's a bet and a raise on the flop? (I think everyone would agree a fold is good). 2. What would you do if the 9 seat (cutoff) called the 7 seats (pre-flop raiser) bet? (I would just call and pray for trips or 2 pair). 3. What would you do if the 7 seat is someone who will call you down the river with 77-QQ, but will fold without a pair on the turn? Would it still be correct to raise in order to try to kick out seat 4 (and then bet again on the turn, of course)? If this is close, does the fact that you may showdown only a low middle pair make your future check-raises more profitable (because you will probably get callers when you do have top pair)?
A checkraise of the pre-flop raiser's bet on the flop backfires if he holds AA, AK, or KQ and elects to reraise (I would). What two-pair is he likely to fear? Now instead of ponying up one small bet to see the turn, suddenly it costs three and the pot doesn't warrant that large an investment. Or what if #7 held QQ, JJ, Kxsuited and decided to call call call in case the big bliind was pulling a stunt. Even with stakes this high, I can imagine there are many players who would do this, rightly or wrongly.
I doubt a thoughtful player would raise with just a pair of queens on the river. A check by the big blind on the turn following by a bet on the river means one of three things: 1) he had a powerful hand on the turn and was intending to checkraise; 2) he holds K with a weak kicker 3) he is bluffing. In the first two cases, a raise with the pair of queens loses an additional bet, and, in the third instance, it gains nothing when big blind folds his empty tent. Therefore, there is little to recommend a checkraise on the river.
8-16 at the Bellagio. Game is fairly tight, passive.
I'm on the button with KhJh. Middle position player (MP) limps (semi-tight bad player, passive), Late position player (LP)limps (loose, passive) I limp, SB folds, BB checks.
Flop: 10h, 9c, 3s. Checked to MP who bets, LP folds, I raise, BB folds MP calls.
Turn: 2s
MP checks, I bet, he folds.
Comments.
Hard to fault success :)
Your turn play revolves around what you read MP to have. The fishies in my pond tend to be pretty tenacious with any pair, so my tendency would be to check the turn assuming any paint on the river is a winning card for me. If MP doesn't have a T , the 2 couldn't have helped him, so it looks like the bet was the best play.
-Oz-
I think that I would have raised pre-flop. The way that you describe the 2 limpers, it sounds like you probably have the best hand. Plus you have position.
Not much to add, job well done.
Today I was in a hand that confused me.
10-20, six-handed.
UTG limps in. I limp behind him with 9-9. Everyone folds behind us, both blinds call.
Flop comes 8-7-2. UTG bets, and I raise. Blinds fold.
Turn comes, a 5, giving me an overpair and a gutshot draw. UTG thinks for a minute and checks. I normally play aggressively here, but I know he's calling and from his mannerism I think I'm beaten. River pairs the seven and we both check. UTG turns over A-A. That was the absolute last thing I was expecting to see.
Any comments appreciated!!
Strange hand. I think both of you played it poorly.
You don't say if you bet or checked on the turn but it seems like you checked the turn and the river. In this situation I would always bet the turn because you have an overpair. If UTG raises you, I would be worried but would probably call the raise and then call the river, depending on the player.
You say that you could tell by his mannerisms that you were beat... if this is the case then I guess you made the correct call but this guy must have some very easy tells. What did you think he had? You thought you were beat yet you were also shocked when he showed AA.
Anyway I think you should almost always continue to bet your overpair until the board gets very scary or someone raises you.
As for the UTG player what the heck was he doing? He played his rockets absolutely terrible. First of all he slows plays them before the flop, then on the flop he comes out betting, when he is raised by you he doesn't re-raise. Then he checks the turn and river. It's possible you have a straight or trip 7's but not likely. He played his hand absolutely terrible and you should be glad you lost as little as you did.
I think the guy only called with AA on the flop so he could check raise on the turn and gain an extra small bet. What do people think of this strategy?
I don't agree with this strategy at all. Why wait for the turn and give everyone a chance to hit their draws? I think you are asking for trouble by doing this. Maybe do it occassionally to mix up your play but that is all, IMHO.
In this particular case their was no bet on the turn so the guy with AA couldn't check-raise. Now everyone gets to see the river for free.
But this guy was heads up and the other player was going to stick around to see the turn anyway since he raised the flop, and he was likely to be the turn.
...and since he raised the flop heads up it was unlikely he was on a draw.
10-20 HE. Typical game, neither too tight or too loose.
Scenario 1.
i am in the cutoff seat and call 3 limpers with 4c4d. button folds and both sb and bb call. Flop 4h 6h As. sb and bb check. first limper bets, 2nd raises, 3rd folds and i reraise. sb folds and bb caps. first limper folds, 2nd limper and i call the cap. turn 9c. bb bets out, 2nd limper calls, i raise and bb reraises. first limper folds. its up to me and all the cues say i'm beaten but i call two more big bets to see bb turn over pocket sixes.
Scenario 2.
i am 2nd to speak and have AcAh and raise. Two late callers, sb folds and bb calls. Flop Kh Ks 6h. bb check, i bet, both callers fold and bb calls. turn 6d. bb checks, i bet, bb raises. the bb is a solid player. all the cues say i'm beaten but i call two more big bets to see the bb turn over A Ko.
Scenario 3.
i am in the bb with 9c 7h. Tough player raises from mid position. Two callers, including one loose maniac type. its up to me and i call (is this a mistake?). Flop 7c 9d Qc. i check. tough player bets. one caller folds, maniac calls, i raise. tough player reraises, maniac calls and i also call. turn Jc. i bet, tough player raises, maniac reraises. its up to me and i call, tough player calls, and we both call one more bb to see the maniac turn over 8 T.
How much a part of playing well after the flop is making laydowns with good hands? would you experts have laid these hands down? In the third scenario i know i played badly from start to finish but i included it as an example of a situation where an expert laydown would have saved bets. Are making these types of laydowns a big part of winning for you guys?
comments and extreme criticism welcomed.
I love this post. I am going through the same problems as you describe. I am trying to make more laydowns when I know I'm beat. Tonight I had AQo utg, raised and it came back to me capped. I called and the flop was Axx rainbow I checked and it came back to me capped again. This is a 10/20 game with good players. I folded and of course the turn was a Q which would have won a gigantic pot. Now I think I'm going back to chasing (just kidding). The 2 winners split the pot with AK's
Scenario#1: Not much you can do here except payoff the better hand. Even if I was fairly sure I was beat, I would have to payoff. Being oversetted is a fairly rare occurrence. Also, BB may have overplaying Ah9h.
Scenario#2: Your pre-flop raise is of course good. The bet on the flop is also a good move because it allows you to define your hand. However, when the solid player in the BB called, it should have sent warning bells. It should have screamed " He has a King." Betting on the turn is absolutely insane. When it was checked to you again, why not take the free card and hope you hit an Ace on the river? Even if you felt compelled to bet the turn to find out "where you were at." The check-raise on the turn should have answered this question. I think you lost too much on this hand when you could have gotten away from this rather cheaply.
Scenario#3: Calling a raise with 97o was very marginal. What kind of flop were you looking for? On the flop you got a good flop for you hand and I think the check-raise was ok (although you never should have gotten involved with this hand in the first place). But I don't understand your rationale for lead betting the turn. All four cards are in a "straight zone" and there is a club flush on board and you bet into a tough player who re-raised your check-raise and a maniac with the bottom two pair?? Did you think they were both going to fold because you were representing a flush? When raised and re-raised on the turn, fold your hand. Again you lost way too much money on this hand.
Are you sure you weren't the maniac?
In scenario 2, I don't know that the bb call screamed "he has a king". A "good" player probably would have raised his set with two suited cards on the board. I think it's reasonable that the bb could have been on a draw in which case betting the turn so as not to give free cards wouldn't be "insane".
Good point. I missed the flush draw on board in the post. Maybe "insane" was too strong a word, I probably should of said "risky." However, I still think Jack should have folded when check-raised on the turn. I don't think a most players would semibluff in this position with a flush draw.
Jack:
1. A choice to fold on the turn can range from being correct to terrible depending on the opponent. The main issue is how your opponent can play a draw. You need to know you're beat 8/9's of the time, which to me seems to mean you'd have to know this player well. I'd always call a stranger.
2. Since you could easily have a pocket pair or a king, this seems to be a bad spot for your opponent to try a pure bluff, which is the only thing besides a king that remotely makes sense. Call if his judgment is bad or if he might be steaming, fold against a normal player.
3. I wouldn't call with 97o in the bb because these guys will probably make it expensive on the flop and a cheap draw is about the best I can hope for. I also have an opponent that probably isn't bluffable before the river, if there. On the turn, I wouldn't call the two big bets with bottom two. Even a "maniac" knows a protected pot when he sees one, and what kind of maniac waits to pick up a draw on the turn before going aggressive against two raisers?
Scenario #1- It's hard not to lose chips when you run into a higher set. Not much you can do here...
Scenario #2- You easily avoid this trap on the turn by checking behind the BB. There are no draws to speak of. You are either beat or have the best hand. In addition, there are no overcards to your 2 pair so giving a free card should be pretty harmless here. Another benefit of playing this way is you may induce a bluff or call from the BB on the river.
Scenario #3- 97o is always marginal in a raised pot regardless of implied odds IMHO- When the straight AND flush get there on the turn, you might want to consider checking. When it was raised and re-raised back to you, I cound 15 BB's in the pot. This is not enough for you to draw at 4 outs. I thinking folding is clear.
Kevin
Scenerio 1- Not much you can do about getting set-undered (I was actually quad undered once in an online game. I'm not sure why I'm even mentioning this except just to whine). I would have called him down just as you did.
Scen. 2- If your opponent is a decent player you may want to check the turn. You could get one more bet out of him on the river this way if you manage to induce a bluff, and you save 2 BB's if he has a K or pocket 6's. If your opponent is a fish then I would bet, but if he's a loose passive fish then I might muck on the turn to a check raise. One thing to remember about bad players--- they're more likely to check-raise with a great hand than a good hand, since in their minds they think they're 'getting more money in the middle', even if the check raise scares out some players they would like to have call.
Scen. 3- I would have mucked B4 the flop. That said, you have to fold on the turn here. Ask yourself-- "What hand could my opponent have and bet this way that I can beat?" Sure, you've got two pair, but what does he have?
Hand 1- Tough beat, nothing you can do. That's part of the danger of playing small pairs. The way the hand played out, you've got the 2nd nuts. Pay him/her off.
Hand 2-It's 50/50 whether I bet this on the turn. I think it's a negative expectation bet. The flush draw folds, the pocket pair likely folds andyou get raised by any K or 6. If the player isn't overly tricky, lay it down on the raise.
Hand 3- Calling a tough player with 7-9o wwith only 2 other callers is a bad idea.
Winger
This hand came up between 2 very good players, one of whom (Player A) is the best I've seen at this limit.
Player A raised from early, all fold to the button who makes it 3 bets. BB calls, as does Player A, 3-way.
The flop was KQJr. Player A checks, button bets, BB folds, Player A calls. The turn is an off 9. Player A bets, button calls. River is a 3. Player A bets, button calls. Player A= JJ. Button= AA.
ON THE FLOP- I'm somewhat confused by Player A's decision to check and call the flop here. I would think he doesn't want a T or A for that matter drawing cheaply. Also, he likely gets action on this flop from the button who 3-bet pre-flop.
ON THE TURN- Of course, since he played the flop in that manner, Player A bets the turn. But how much can he like it if he gets raised now? Is it possible to make a case that if the button raises the turn and bets the river, Player A now has to at least consider a fold?
ON THE RIVER- When Player A bets the river, what are the chances the button's AA is any good? From the way the flop played out, it's unlikely Player A has AK. AQ/KJs are minute possibilities. Everything else (KQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) with the remote possibility of a chop (AA) has the button clearly beat. I'm having a hard time figuring this hand out. Can someone shed some light? Thanks.
Kevin
I see two scenarios here:
The button is a rock, reraising with minimum AK/TT (and the bb is mushbrained), after all, it was an utg open-raise. Your pal knows his JJ might be in trouble, goot flat call preflop.
The board spells trouble despite flopping the set. Best strategy: rope-a-dope all the way with this non-lay-downable (boy am I good at this) hand.
The turn card helps a bit, strangely as it seems. It's headsup now and the button can't raise now with his better set (barring TT straight). Since your hero can't fold, he might as well bet (and call if raised, drawing to the boat and paying off cursing under breath unimproved). Same thing on the river, the bet is correct as AK/AA hand will check behind but the better one is going to bet if checked into.
Good play, I think. Maybe too good.
The button is overaggressive. If yes, hero should fourbet preflop. If the button has him beat, the bb is covering the bulk of expenses for the mistake. With no third party in there, a flat call is goot even with AA (check-raising the flop to recoup).
Player A got greedy on the flop, he's going for the turn check-raise. The bad turn card fuckabooms his plans. He has to bet out now as the board is too scarry, button is in position and is not betting unless he holds a better set (ok, he still might bet KQ). It's a slowplay gone wrong. A good rule of toe: never slowplay with two Broadway cards on flop.
Bad, bad play.
It depends on the button, really. Given the $10-20 stakes, I'm more inclined to believe it was a fishy play.
BTW, did I see something about folding the set in your post? Did I read that right? Considering the moderate action there, it is unthinkable, can I make you agree on this? If I catch you do that in my game, you are toast.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Thanks Izmet for the very insightful analysis. Given a choice between Genius and Retard, I have to lean toward genuis with this particular player. Although I guess anyone can make a questionable play at times, this player has never been prone to "fishy play". The button also is a very good player and would most likely be very tight in what he raised Player A with (your AK/TT was probably very accurate) . I wasn't there, but it's very possible the BB was mushy.
You can make me agree that folding a set on the river is unthinkable (I never said to consider folding the turn), if you can tell me what hands the button might bet (after raising the turn), that don't beat JJ. I already agree folding a big hand on the river is almost never correct. But if the odds you are getting to make a call on the end are considerably less than the odds your oppoenet is bluffing, isn't this where good players make/save that extra bet that lesser players would not? Thanks again.
Kevin
Folding a set on the river correctly can be done against *very* predictable opponents only. In this case you are exploiting their weakness and straying off from optimal play (which means your opponent can hurt you badly if he suddenly sees the light and chooses to counterattack next time for whatever reason). If a scary board and a little Fekali enema (raising on the turn) is all I need to make my opponent lay down a set, hey, I'll start doing it for fun of watching his contorted face ("Damn Albanian pigmolester sucked out on me again!!!"). If a player is capable of laying down a set, don't you think I can make him fold a top pair with a stinky kicker next time? I might spend my monthly enema supply on this guy alone, that's for sure (until he adapts, of course).
Some of the best players I play against (gone are the days of my sitting at the table with 9 clueless opponents, it's "study the best" for me now) will raise the turn on dangerous boards just to test the waters (and to buy a free showdown on the river) and they often might follow with a bet on the river if they smell weakness (and more importantly, if they can smell a set-folder). I've seen too many cold bluff river raises (and some 3bet bluffs) to even consider folding such a strong hand, and some tough players will raise because they don't like their hand (and trap you with their rope-a-dope flat calls when strong).
Of course, I see your point, against known weak-tighties, correct monster laydowns are possible. But you need to be *very* sure of what you are doing.
To answer your question, some of the players I play against could raise the turn and bet the river with 99/AQ/AK/KQ/QJ. Some will cold bluff on a whim. It's not likely, though, I do agree.
For more discussion on (non) merits of exploiting via laydowns take a look at the January archives for a thread that started as "Oh man, Jim's gonna be all over this check-raise" and then turned into a long discussion on whether the call at the end was correct or not. Abdul's comments there are probably the best info on the subject available.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Thanks Izmet. I will check out that thread. This is an area of my game (more raising on the turn) where I am trying to become stronger or at least tone up some of the unused muscles. With AK/AA and the button in this spot, I'd reason that I may very well be drawing and I just wouldn't want to make it too expensive for myself. As for betting the end, I am much more inclined to value bet when first to act than last. Maybe it's because the level of competition is weaker in the games I play in, but I've found that you are much less likely to be called by a worse hand when you are last to act than first. Thanks again.
Kevin
I agree with your assessment of Player A's check-call on the flop. Player A should lead at the flop with bottom set in this raised pot. With that flop he will get played with and he needs to put maximum pressure on anyone with an Ace or a Ten.
On the turn, he suddenly finds a bet when there are four parts to a completed hand on the table. If raised, he is probably beat but he cannot ever fold under any circumstances because with a set he has 10 outs to fill. A fold would be unthinkable even if he is raised.
At the river, from the button's perspective, it sure looks like Player A has a Ten for a straight. But if he doesn't, his pocket rockets lose to two pair or a set which is quite likely given that board. Nevertheless with all that money in the pot I think the button has to call at the river hoping his opponent was betting AK or AQ.
Kevin:
I do not know about slow playing the flop, but if he did choose to slow play the flop, the turn bet out was a wonderful move. He can only be raised by a better hand because the button must fear a strait. Player A, if raised, can call the turn raise and fold the river if he does not boat. The fold on the river can be made with absolute assurity that he is beaten.
Frank Donnelly
The fold on the river can be made with absolute assurity that he is beaten.
Huh? Not against the best or the worst players.
He can only be raised by a better hand because the button must fear a strait.
Anybody who is contemplating (and letting me know about it) to fold a set at any point in any given hold'em hand will get his ass raised in this spot with almost any two cards, but not with a better set.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
I think there are times when you can muck a set on the river with a clear conscious. I've never mucked a set before the river, so I can't speak for the turn or the flop... but I can't imagine that 'putting a guy' on a higher set is a real +EV move.
That said, I agree that if you're losing money at the HE tables, it's not because you call on the river too often with hidden sets.
I folded a set of Jacks on the flop once. A LOL flopped a set of Aces and there was no doubt in my mind about it. After the hand she confirmed the fact. This occurred a long time ago and I don't remember the particulars, but I was upset about playing my hand to begin with. I don't think I ever saw her raise with anything other than KK or AA.
Bruce
ON THE FLOP- I'm somewhat confused by Player A's decision to check and call the flop here. I would think he doesn't want a T or A for that matter drawing cheaply. Also, he likely gets action on this flop from the button who 3-bet pre-flop.
It depends on his read. If he thinks the button has AA, then a slowplay is not a bad move. On the other hand, if the button has KK or QQ, Player A has a big problem.
ON THE TURN- Of course, since he played the flop in that manner, Player A bets the turn. But how much can he like it if he gets raised now? Is it possible to make a case that if the button raises the turn and bets the river, Player A now has to at least consider a fold?
Not on the turn, player A has 10 outs against a straight if he does not think he is set undered. "A" leads to see if he is indeed set undered of not. Also, if the button has AA or AK, he will call. If he has a 10, he will raise. My guess is "A" will 3 bet if raised by the button and if 4 bet, he will back off. He can fold if he does not fill up.
ON THE RIVER- When Player A bets the river, what are the chances the button's AA is any good? From the way the flop played out, it's unlikely Player A has AK. AQ/KJs are minute possibilities. Everything else (KQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) with the remote possibility of a chop (AA) has the button clearly beat. I'm having a hard time figuring this hand out. Can someone shed some light? Thanks.
Slim and none. The button should have folded.
Kevin,
Pre-Flop - I do not see any problems with the play.
Flop - I think the utg player should have bet and hoped for the button to raise to force the BB out with a gutter ball straight draw, or at least make BB pay if he has an open-ended strainght draw or if he has flopped 2 pair or if he has played a trap hand such as AQ for the 3 bets pre-flop. I am definitely wanting to get the hand heads up at this point. Since BB folded for buttons bet, this is irrelevant as it turns out. However, I am also trying to punish the button if he has reraised with AK/AQ/KQ, etc.
Turn - If I am utg - I have bet the flop and if the button has raised, I have now just called the raise. Given this scenario on the flop, I see 2 options here. A. Utg can simply bet out the hand again and if the button raises again, he can reraise or simply call if he really feels the button has a higher set. B. Utg can go for the check raise on the turn. I think it really just depends on the opponent on the button. If I am confident he will bet, I will definitely go for the check raise.
River - I simply bet out the hand and get paid off.
I disagree with the utg player laying the hand down. I see absolutely no possibility of laying this hand down given the way it was played out. Even if it had played out differently, I think this is just a situation where I would have to pay off the set over set if I was beat - but I do not lay it down at all. I do not think the button can lay down either but is simply in the unenviable position of having to pay the hand off. If I am the button, and I know I have a large (very large) amount of respect from the utg player, I may raise the turn to try and win the pot outright and then simply check the river unless a 10 hits. Again though, this is a very risky play that I would only make against a passive opponent who will not come back at me on the turn - because if he did, I would most likely have to muck AA given the board.
Just some thoughts.
By the way Kevin - who is this best player. I am very curious to know.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
Thanks for the response Mike:
The more I play this game, the more I think that the simpler you make your decisions the better. (at least at the $10-$20 level or should I say at my level since I am yet not good enough to play through very tricky situations). For this reason, I can't see Player A check/raising the turn. If he gets re-raised he has to call. If he does not improve on the river now what does he do? Check and call? What could the button have re-raised the turn AND be betting the river with that doesn't beat JJ? If you can explain how Player A should respond to a re-raise on the turn and a bet on the river, you will no doubt give me insight into a higher lever of play than I am currently capable of. Thanks again.
Kevin
I play 15-30 and 20-40 HE. Up about $10. an hour after 450 hrs. of play. I was making more than $20. but I've been on a losing streak for the past 100 hrs. Two problems:
1) I'm on the button with 55. Two limpers and the cut-off seat makes it two bets. Should I call?
2) I'm in middle position with A4s. Three limpers. What should I do? What if I'm in late position UTG raises (lose player), three callers. What should I do?
These two types of hands really confuse me. I always see the flop for one bet with three limpers. I just don't know when it is correct to stay for two bets. Can someone give me some help and the reasons why? Thanks.
Abdul Jalib and Izmet Fekali both have great stuff on preflop strategies. I would suggest you try that. There are links for that here on this forum. The S&M stuff is ok too on the preflop but it is not as lively or as specific, but is a must read too. Quickly, without elaboration, those hands you described 55 and acesuited cannot sustain raises. There are exceptions to this however but this would take a treatise of which I am incapable of producing.
1) I'm on the button with 55. Two limpers and the cut-off seat makes it two bets. Should I call?
If you think one or both blinds will call, yes call the raise, else fold. You would like to have 4-5 players with a small pair. The raise is likely a legitimate hand due to the previous limpers.
2) I'm in middle position with A4s. Three limpers. What should I do? What if I'm in late position UTG raises (lose player), three callers. What should I do?
If you play the hand for a flush draw and don't get
trapped by the ace only situation, call. You also
can call a single raise because there are 4-5 players giving you enough implied odds.
You shouldn't look a too many flops for two bets. I'd muck the suited A's unless I was sure I could get about 6 way action AND the pre-flop raiser wasn't a real good player (or none of the other cold callers were real good players). With the pocket pairs you need about the same, except it doesn't matter how well the raiser or the cold callers play.
If you are contemplating calling raises with these type of hands you are playing too loose and this may explain why you are on a prolonged losing streak. Why get involved with pocket Fives in this type of situation. You really only want to play this hand for a single bet in a large family pot. You have no idea what the blinds will do including a reraise. I would not call a raise with A4s unless I felt like the whole table would play the hand or pretty close to that. The likelyhood of making a wheel or flush is pretty slim and getting trapped with a pair of Aces can be quite detrimental to your bankroll.
Bruce
Thanks guys. You are probably right Bruce. Maybe I'm on the "subtle tilt" that John Feeney talks about in his book.
It's really tough emotionally to pass with hands like that even though you know its wrong. I have problems with it myself. You see the clueless idiot call 4 raises with a piece of garbage and he wins a huge pot and cashes out 5 racks and your thinking becomes distorted. John Feeney has a great section about tilt in his book. It's a must for any serious player.
Bruce
55 dilemma:
Let's say there are 2 limpers, then a raise, you call (not fearing a reraise and suspecting that at least one of the blinds will call), small blind folds, big blind calls, limpers call. That makes a total of 11 small bets. So far the ratio is 5.5:1. If a 5 comes on the flop, you'll need to collect another 10 small bets (other than your own) for the pre-flop call to have been justified (this should cover those times it doesn't hold up). 10 small bets is an average of two calls per street.
A4suited dilemma:
You will catch a flush about 6.5% of the time, two-pair 2.2% of the time; add favorable flops like 44x, AAA, 235, AA4, and all told, A4suited is a hand with about the same expectation of improving (sufficiently enough to win most of the time) as the 55. Caveat: the foregoing holds true as long as you can easily jettison this hand when an ace flops (and no 4) and a bet follows hard upon.
Personaly i never call a raise with a pocket pair under 88, preflop , however i may reraise if i think it might get it heads up and the raiser is a weak player. This does not count of course if i am in the blinds, then i call with any pocket pair for 1 raise.
If you are on the button and UTG raises and you have pocket 6's and the whole table has called so far are you going to pass?
Bruce
With 7 or 8 callers i would probally call down to 55.
I just do not like calling with 22,33,or 44. With 55 i at least have a critical pair needed to make a small str8.
But that is just me.
I don't like to play eigther of these hands in a raised pot. I just don't do it.
Hello All,
I have a few situations here I am looking for feedback on. I will confine the situation to which I am referring to a typical 10-20 game. The typical 10-20 game I am referring to is definitley loose and depending on the players in the game, it may or may not be agressive. Generally speaking though, there are usually at least 5 players or more seeing every flop, and pre-flop the pot is raised say approixmately 50% of the time. From my experience, many times players are raising pre-flop with 10J, KQ, small pocket pair, A10, AJ, as well as legitiate raising hands. As I said, the game is definitely loose and there are almost always 3 or more eggs/fish in the game. The questions I have are as follows:
1. Should a player be limping in with Ax suited from any position.
2. Should a player be calling raises cold with Ax suited. Iabsolutely refuse to cold call a raise with this hand but it seems to be a pretty common play in the games I am in and many times players will 3 bet with it.
My play has always been that I only play Ax suited from late postion and I never cold call a raise with it - but I will defend the blinds with it if I feel the player raising may be on a steal or if there are 3 or more players in the hand besides myself.
I am beginning to question if maybe I should start to play this hand from earlier position. I still think cold calling a raise with it is pretty much suicidal, but I also can see some value in playing it from almost anywhere as so many players play any 2 suited cards and I would definitely get paid handsomely when it hits. Again, I will not cold call a raise with it but am wondering if I am giving up too much by mucking it from early and middle position as there always seems to be enough players in the hand to justify playing it. I am definitely the type of player who is able to lay down my bad A if an A hits the flop so I am not really worried about getting trapped if the A hits.
So far, I have not changed the way I play and am really only playing it in an unraised pot from late position or when I am in a blind. Personally I have never really thought that the hand had too much value except in late position in an unraised pot. I am just wondering what everyone elses thinks regarding this.
All thoughts and comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
I don't think you need to change things much at all. With Axs I will often call a raise in the back if it will be 6 or 7 way action. In a very passive game I will sometimes limp in early position if I do not fear a raise and I will have a family pot. In a tight game muck the hand as quickly as possible.
Bruce
Mike:
I think that in order to play AXs from an early position, the game should not only be loose but passive. The game you describe makes it close since I consider 5-way action as loose and only 50% pre-flop raising to be on the passive side. However, I would PREFER even less pre-flop raising to play AXs from early position. I think the key to playing this hand profitably is to be able to bail for even a single bet if an ace flops. Very few players can/will do this however.
Calling a raise with AXs? I've seen some very good players call 2 cold with this hand in multi-way pots (always with position). Sometimes you will find yourself with top pair in a big pot with position. Other times your top pair will not stand a chance. I think it's imperative to play VERY well after the flop. I also think most players overestimate their ability in this area. That's my take anyway.
Kevin
Bruce and Kevin,
Thanks for the responses. I really just wanted confirmation that I was not giving up too much by not playing this hand except in an unraised pot with position and multiway action. Your responses confirmed my beliefs regarding this hand.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
I hate Axs. I will only play A4s and A5s for no raise. On very rare occaisons i will play Axs in late pos. for a family pot with no raise.
Hi Mike I agree with how your playing this hand. Remember your only going to flop a flush draw 1 out of 9 times and your only going to make the flush approximately 5% of the time. Calling raises with implied odds hands in general is not the way to win money in hold'em. There are exceptions depending on who the players are that are raising but your not going to be making much money calling raises with this hand in early position. I think sometimes we see players winning with a hand like this and start to think were missing out. However we don't see how many times they muck the hand and lose money. Keep playing it in passive games and stay away from calling raises and i think you'll continue to be way ahead. Continued Success Larry
A dangerous header on this forum but I have pretty thick skin. A hand came up tonite in a 15-30 game that I would appreciate some responses.
The game was medium-passive. I am viewed as a tight player. I am beating the game pretty good and have showed nothing but premium hands. Now let me say up front that I'm not a big believer in advertising, but action is starting to dry up.
I pick up 8-9s in mid position. 2 players limp to me and I call.Ideally I would prefer to play it with better position (if at all). 3 more call, SB calls and BB raises. BB loose and passive. Tentatively put him on big pair, possibly AKs. I call as does everyone to the SB who re-raises. SB very loose, very poor player. BB caps and I know it's AA or KK. So much for getting in cheap. I think for a bit and call, as does averyone. 7 handed, $420 in pot.
Flop Ac 9d 5d. SB checks, BB bets I call with my gutshot all but one call to SB who raises. BB calls as does everyone else. I actually like the SB raise as it tells me that the BB doesn't have AA and SB would raise with any A. 6 handed $600 in pot.
Turn 3d. SB bets, BB calls. Looking behind me No one looks happy with the diamonds. Neverless with the pot offering me 17-1 (if I'm alive) I fold.
Nothing miraculous on the river. I would have missed (a diamond fell). SB won with Ad-6s. BB had QQ. No one had the flush til the river so my read on the turn was right.
I'm interested where people think I erred in this hand. Let's not argue about the initial call. Who would have folded:
A) On the first raise pre-flop B) On the re-raise and cap pre-flop C) On the flop D) On the turn E) After the river.
Thanks for any input
Winger
You have 89s.
Flop is A 9 5.
There is no gutshot, only backdoor. I'll assume that's what you meant.
As for advertising, here's something I once read on the back of a sugar packet.
He who has something to sell
And goes and whispers in a well
Is not as apt to get the dollars
As he who climbs a tree and hollers.
So, if you want to advertise, RAISE with yout 89s. Pray for a flop of 889, 67T or the like. Get to the river and show down a hand no one thought you had.
If I had been UTG, and the intent had been to advertise I would have raised. But 2 had already called and the intent was simply to show a hand that most would not have expected me to play.
Thanks for the response Winger
Ooops, that's the problem with entering a post after a long night. I had 7-8, not 8-9. Sorry
Winger
Given the limits of discussion that you request, I would have played the hand exactly as you did -- folding on the turn. The size of the pot (plus your implied odds) versus the probability of hitting your gutshot dictate that you should stay in the hand up to this point as you are drawing to the nuts. With the third diamond on the turn and five opponents you are likely facing a flush and should fold.
I vote for option B.
A full $10-20 game. I raise UTG with QQ. The player to my immediate left, who plays a little loose when calling raises, cold calls. He seems to play fairly straightforward after the flop. All fold to the big blind who calls. 6.5 sb in the pot.
Flop comes KKJ with 2 spades. The BB leads. I elect to raise thinking that the BB wouldn't normally lead out with a K. The other player calls, and the BB folds.
Turn comes an offsuit 3. I bet and he calls.
River comes the A of spades (note - neither of my queens are spades). I bet, he raises, and I muck my hand.
Comments / criticisms welcome.
I think you played the hand fine until the turn. But on the river a check would have been correct since there aren´t too many hands you could beat the other player calls with. Check and call or even check and fold would have been better plays IMO (depending on what you knew about the other player)
Regards
M.A.
I like betting out on the river a lot. However, if you feel you must fold to a raise, a check-call is much better. You were very probably beat, I do agree on that, but I guess you suspected that when the ace hit. What was the purpose of your river bet?
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Your play up to the river was good. I don't like the river bet because a worse hand will not call and a better hand may raise. I think you should check and, depending upon the player, either call or fold a river bet. Against most players I would fold but there are certain goofy ones who must be called.
Izmet Fekali, whose opinion I respect, questioned the river bet, but not the turn bet. Jim Brier, whose opinion I also respect, liked the turn bet. But I don't understand it. I get very suspicious when I raise into a board of two kings and someone cold calls my bet behind me.
I would have checked my queens at this point. I think opponent, if he had a jack or a king, would have then bet the turn, where I would have called. On the river, I would have check folded when the Ace came; if an Ace did not come, I would have check called.
Why bet the turn?
No free cards to draws. How you react to a turn raise depends on the opponent. Against unknowns it's calling down time.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Andy, I understand your concern about being cold-called by the player behind you but when the pot gets big, these guys will call with any decent Jack like Ace-Jack or Queen-Jack and maybe even Jack-Ten suited. After raising on the flop when you suddenly show weakness by checking the turn you are inviting your lone opponent to step in and try to take the pot away from you. If you plan on calling his turn bet then you are better off betting yourself. You need to avoid putting yourself in a check-calling mode in these situations.
Thanks for the responses guys.
IMO, the turn bet is sound. As Jim and Izmet said, there are too many ways that you are beating your opponent here and don't want to give out free cards to a J or draw (2 spades). I think against this opponent (who seemed to play straightforward post flop), I would fold to a turn raise here which would save me a bet on the river in the likely scenario that I was beat.
As for the river bet (against this opponent who was very straightforward), if I get raised, I know with 99% certainty that I am beat and I can muck. There's a slight chance I would get called by a Jack, and if I am going to call the river when the Ace comes (which is debatable, I admit), I think it is better to bet here to make the money when the opponent has the Jack. The opponent would bet in that spot with any hand that beats me.
Maybe folding the river is the better play against this guy, but if I plan on calling, I think betting is better.
Comments?
Puggy
I recently sat down in an easy, 5 handed 15-30 game and found myself in total control, really playing in a zone. After 2 hours, I was plus about 1600. As the game filled up, the weaker players left and the game got touched with a good player and a very weak player both on fire. Six hours later I was minus 700. Obviously I did not adjust properly and this is the worst swing I have ever experienced. My question to the Forum is, Are stop losses a good idea? For instance, When I began to drain my checks, should I have set a limit, say +1000 and quit at that point or continue to play, trying to regain control?
In shorthanded games like this you will frequently swing a lot more money than in a full game. This is because you are putting up more blinds each hour, playing more hands each hour, betting more each hour, and raising more each hour. When you get up 100 small bets or more in a game and the line-up starts to strengthen I would consider leaving if I start running bad. This increased volatility is why I avoid shorthanded games like the plague.
Jim made some very good points. Theoretically if the game is still good you should stay and play. Obviously the chip drain was affecting your play so leave. John Feeney wrote an essay that can be found in the essay's section that addresses this is issue. It is very good and well worth reading.
Changing gears from proper play in shorthanded (loose agressive) to proper play in full games (tight agressive) is sometimes difficult to do on the fly. It's not so much that you have to stop and leave, but you should think about taking a break for about 15 minutes. Walk around, regroup, focus on the new situation and play your A game. I kind of like to think of Kevin Costner in "For the love of the Game" when he says to himself "clear the mechanism". If the game is still relatively soft, keep playing. If a few tough guys have joined, pocket a big win and go home feeling good, commending yourself on your good judgement to leave when the game became too tough. No shame in that, ever.
When you get ahead like this you should mentally lock up 80% ($1280) of your winnings and continue to play on the remaining 20% ($320) Once you lose that you walk with $1280 profit.
If you continue to win keep on playing and keep locking up 80% - this way you have the best of both worlds. It works for me!
There are two schools of thought and both of them have supporters.
1. Take the profit. Determine before hand what amount of money is an acceptable profit. In 20-40, I have a friend who if he wins $1000 will lockup $750 no matter what happens or what the game conditions are. If he loses $1000, he is done for the day.
He feels there is no such thing as a good game if he is losing.
2. Play as long as the game is good. Results don't matter in the short term, instead try to play as long as possible against players you can beat. I think we should all strive to this goal versus the first goal. However, if losing a big profit is a problem for you, it might be best to do the first method.
I like a stop-loss system even if the nature of the game doesn't change. I find it very difficult psychologically to take giving back a big win. I feel worse when I was up a big amount and leave the game even, even worse than when I lose but have been stuck all night. This is especially important when the game gets tougher and you know this, as it was in your case.
Sklansky says that the amount you are losing or winning should be irrelevant, that when the game is good and you are therefore a favorite to win, keep playing, and when the game is bad, quit. "Never quit a good game as a small winner just to insure a winning session." But I find that the objective truth of the principal he is invoking makes perfect sense only if we are all machines, capable of absorbing losses without emotion. Since we are not, the peace of mind that comes with a stop-loss system is, to me at least, very important.
If i ever get up 2 to 3 times my buy in i am willing to give my origanal buy in back, then i walk with the profit. It hurts me to be way up then walk away even or down a little.
It really surprises me to read the responses to this post. I thought these swings for the day aren't supposed to effect us that much, its one big poker games etc.
I used to get annoyed when I blew back a good win, but when I looked at the games where this happened I thought ,"well there was no way I was going to leave *this* game. " So I couldn't be mad at myslef for playing, but maybe for some bad plays...
I maybe pschologically a stop-loss isn't such a bad idea especially if you had been running bad before but other than pschololgical reasons if the games is good, you shouldn't set a stop loss.
Most players when they are losing are not playing as well as they are capable of. Unfortunately most winnning players are not capable of accepting this and often times they will continue to play longer and just lose more.
Bruce
Despite all the published dogma that a winning player should not have a stop-loss, the reality is that most players would be better off using one. Better than losing though, when the game changed, you fell out of your zone, and the weak players all left, you should've found that the best time to quit. A stop-loss has more to do with the situation than the dollar amount.
Often the game changes and gets a lot harder. I might have packed up at the $1200 mark.
If you lost because you played bad then you made a mistake. If you still played well but the game was too tough you made a mistake. But if the game was good and the cards turned against you, that's life.
I play badly more frequently than I would like, but recently I was playing well in a good game and getting my ass kicked. I didn't steam or go on tilt, however, because I saw what hands were sucking out on me and figured it was only a matter of time. I was right and finished an $1800 winner in a 5-hour session(Paradise).
John,
Short of getting up when the cards started turning, I don't know what adjustments you could have made. You played selectively and showed patience and discipline. Nothing you can do when somebody gets runner-runner to beat you.
You were in a tough predictament. Up all that money at 10AM on a Saturday morning with no place to go.
Russ
I am in Seat #3 with the button in a ten-handed $30-$60 game at the Bellagio on Saturday night with a good player on my immediate right. I have the JsJh. Everyone folds to the good player who opens with a raise to $60. I re-raise to $90. The small blind folds. The big blind calls. The good player makes it $120. I just call as well as the big blind. There is $380 in the pot and three players.
The flop is: 9s8h2s
The big blind comes out betting $30. The good player raises to $60. I just call as well as the big blind. There is $560 in the pot.
The turn is: 2h
The big blind comes out betting $60. The good player raises to $120. I fold. The big blind calls. There is $800 in the pot and two players.
The river is: 3s
The big blind now checks. The good player bets $60. The big blind folds.
Comments welcome.
I think you made a very good fold. I can't see the good player with anything but AxAs or AsKs for his betting. The big blind must also have an overpair to the board unless he's playing AhKh, or maybe Ah9h.
I think the BB might have taken a chance with 98s from 2 late position raisers then had to call the 3rd bet from cutoff. He then thought he was in heaven when the flop came. When the turn pairs the board he has to put at least one of you on an overpair. I don't know what he could bet out successfuly. His turn bet spells your demise and you made a good fold. If he checked the turn I think I would check call the cutoff's bet hoping for no flush card on the river. I think cutoff had AA-JJ or AKs (I hope it wasn't TT or AKh)
I don't like the way you played your hand. The player on your right will play TT, JJ, AQs, and, AKs the same way. Granted, he could also have QQ thru AA. I don't like your cold call on the flop of a raise. I would have reraised on the flop and played accordingly and hopefully would have seized the initiative. You put yourself in a position on the turn where you become very vulnerable having to call two big bets even though you may have the best hand. From your opponents eyes on your right when you call a raise on the flop without reraising it looks like you have AK or AQ and he is playing accordingly.
Bruce
Bruce:
I'm inclined to believe that if his opponents are astute, Jim's cold call on the flop should be scary enough. In other words, he accomplishes the same thing with a cold call as he would for $90 and saves a sb at the same time. It's unlikely Jim calls 2 cold on the flop with AK or AQ unless both his cards (or at least the ace?) is a spade. I think Jim told both opponents he has an overpair. The good player told Jim he beats it. Next hand.
I doubt if the player on the right would have made it $120 pre flop with TT, JJ or AQ. He was re raised and the BB cold called.
J,
I would have probably reraised the flop especially since he was a good player. On the turn I most likely would have reraised the turn but not really liking it. I'll check the river.
Against a bad player, I would probably folded on the turn.
Cold calling on the flop got you in trouble and made it tough to play.
hope I'm never drawing dead,
albert
Pre-flop I play it the same. When the good player re-raises you it screams big pair. A description of the BB would have helped, but after the flop there are only 2 hands you can beat: AKs and 10-10. Given that the BB may re-pop it I dump right here.
Winger
The big blind either played poorly or was in cahoots with the GP. If he held JT or 67, why did he bet his draw into someone who had reraised preflop? If he held 98, why didn't he reraise on the flop? If he held A9 or A8, betting out on the flop was O.K., but then why would he lead again on the turn once the GP had raised his flop bet?
I think the GP held AA or KK. His initial pre-flop raise would have been disguised as a steal attempt. Would he have raised the big blind's bet on the flop if he held AKs? Only if he thought he could get you to immediately fold and then be able to manhandle the big blind in case the flush didn't arrive. When you called the flop raise, that should have indicated you were either on the flush draw or held an overpair. His raise on the turn said, "if you're on the flush draw, it'll cost you 2 big bets; if you have an overpair, mine is bigger." So I think your fold was correct.
Maybe your best move would have been to have folded once the GP raised on the flop. I'd like to hear your reasons for coldcalling.
Well, I think you make a good point about folding on the flop when it is bet and raised to me. It is costing me $60 plus the possibility of further raising to play what could be 2 outs. The odds are not there for calling.
You played it like a little girl! - Four bet them preflop, take control of the hand.
3 bet them on the flop - Make them react to you - you are reacting to them. You're also applying all your pressure on the two cheap streets.
Now if they bet into you again on the turn after all the heat you have laid down then this is the time to decide if they really have a hand or they are making a play on you.
Bob I did 3 bet my hand pre-flop and the good player made it 4 bets. Are you saying I should make $150 which is a cap on pocket Jacks? There is also a third player in the hand.
I think it is an incorrect assumption to assume the good player has AA or KK just because he 4 bets it BTF. With only 2 other opponents the good player can have a much wider spectrum of hands and he will 4 bet it to retake the initiative on the flop, vary his play, and confuse his opponents among other reasons. I really do think this is somewhat of a myth in limit hold-em. Perhaps the game is played differently in California than Vegas, but I often see players and I am talking about good ones 4 betting with hands they are not supposed to have in similar situations.
Bruce
Bruce:
You wrote: ”Perhaps the game is played differently in California than Vegas, but I often see players and I am talking about good ones 4 betting with hands they are not supposed to have in similar situations.”
Although I tend to agree with you concerning this hand, in Jim’s defense I do think the four-bet generally indicates a stronger hand in Las Vegas than it does in California. The mere fact that there is a four-raise limit in Las Vegas versus a three-raise limit in California creates MORE raising with weaker hands in California. The fact is that here (in California) you can three bet it knowing you will only have to face one more raise or four bet knowing you will close the betting generates more raising.
Mason was the first one to write about this in one of his Poker Essay books but I think we have all experienced the phenomenon.
Regards,
Rick
True, there's no question about that. But I still think when it's three handed that is not going to make as big a difference as you think it may.
Bruce
Bruce,
Playing solid, tough and winning poker requires making good decisions constantly. Further, taking the data provided and thinking through the other player's thoughts are what brings our games up one, two to three levels.
Cooke makes it four bets *in front* of the reraiser with a third person in the hand. The very, very, very worst hand he has is AKs and that is not at all likely.
After the flop, 9,8,2 two spades, Cooke raises the BB who opens. What do you think he has? Pocket 7s? Come on. Pocket tens or Slick are the only miracle holdings are the only slim possibilities. If you can imagine 10s, which I cannot, then you have to allow for 9s and 8s which gives him a set. Remember, Roy makes moves but always has his rationale, just like how he works towards justifying his decisions in his column.
Then, he raises the BB on the turn when deuces pair the board. The small pair on the board was a great card making his overpair solid against a potential two pair. Now think, how can he have pocket tens or Slick with this raise? Jim, "tight and tough player" reraised his raise preflop and called his flop raise cold. Roy may be guilty of some arrogance at the table but do not confuse him with being a maniac.
Finally, with a rag on the river and $800. in the pot, the BB checks and Cooke bets. No bluff, no Slick no Tens. I am serious when I say I would have easily been willing to bet anyone $1,000., at the moment, after the flop raise by Roy that Jim's "JJ" were toast.
I am not saying if this were in LA, another game or players. But knowing these players, in Vegas and situation, its a lock bet. Bob
Bob,
I was attempting to make two major points. My first point is just because Roy make's it 4 bets BTF concluding that he holds AA, KK, or big slick is erroneous. Roy will mix up his play and 4 bet it with other hands for a variety of reasons. Please see my thread below on this same post. Secondly, Jim played his hand too passively. He should have raised again either BTF or three bet it on the flop. His cold call on the flop of two bets put him in a very precarious situation on 4th street. Whether Roy had a better hand or not I don't know, but the focus of my post was on the optimal play of Jim's hand.
Bruce
Bruce,
Fair enough. I like your posts and what you say. I think here we may have played it differently but I understand your point of view.
Bob
Jim,
[Note: As I paste what follows in I notice bruce has replied. I wrote this without reading his reply yet.]
I know you asked Bob but here is my two cents. I also like the cap before the flop. Since you have to put in four bets anyway (since “good player” Roy Cooke made it four bets), why not cap it at five bets? It only costs one more bet (yet may save you money later), it adds needed deception to your game, Roy should now fear you, and if he doesn’t (by continuing to lead into or reraise you post flop), then he probably really does have the overpair and you can play accordingly.
Of course capping before the flop may change all that follows but I also like the reraise on the flop. Perhaps based on previous experience playing with you, Roy will do everything he can to blow you off the pot with nothing but overcards or even TT. Since his original raise was from the cutoff seat, the percentages indicate a lesser hand rather than the big overpair.
Regards,
Rick
Very unusual for the big blind to come out betting into two players, one who re-raised pre-flop, and another who made it 4 bets. Then, after not re-rasing on the flop, he comes out betting on the turn when the board pairs! At this point, you should eliminate 9-8 from the hands you would put him on, as he surely must know one or both of his opponents has an overpair and now has him beat.
When the good player now raises, you must indeed fold. It is of course possible that the good player had pocket tens and you would have won, but more likely you are beat by him, and you could not know you were not beat by the big blind when he bet out on the turn.
I played a similar hand recently at the same stakes. A famous player (FP) limped under the gun and I raised with pocket kings. BB (a good player), GP and I took the flop 3-handed: Q-T-7 rainbow. Both opponents checked, I bet, BB raised, FP cold called, I re-raised, BB capped (4-bet limit) and FP cold called again. Turn was a 6 of the 4th suit. BB bet, FP called and I called (a mistake?). River was a J, making board Q-T-7-6-J. BB bet out again and FP raised; I souped. BB called and FP won with a straight (he had 9-8s) to GP's set of Ts.
Overpairs can be a bitch when they keep betting and raising into you. Even though it's possible you still have both of them, it's unlikely. With you jacks, it's tought to stand the heat because now if an overcard comes on the river, you're really in no man's land.
I would have 3-bet the flop (as I did on my hand) and lost more than you did, especially if they let me lead on the turn.
I think it is reasonable to assume that when a good player tells you twice by betting or raising into you that he has you beat, you will save money by laying down the hand for the few times that he is on a move and not a hand.
Regards, Dugie
(n/t)
Now let's look at this differently. Roy is an expert player. He knows that Jim knows this. Roy also knows that Jim plays solidly and is also capable of laying down a hand. I am speculating on this, but there also may be an intimidation factor playing against Roy and Roy will certainly use this to his advantage. Given this scenario why can Roy only have KK or AA to 4 bet the flop. Roy can have a much wider spectrum of hands and therefore I think it is incorrect for Jim to play the hand so passively on the flop. Just my 2cents.
Bruce
Generally, I think you played the hand well. You were in a tough spot on the turn and can't really be questioned for mucking to a bet and a raise.
Just a side comment though: I believe that Roy does not likely have AA or KK. I say this because once the board pairs on the turn with the deuce, Roy has less of a need to protect his KIngs or Aces. Thus, I suspect his hand is either QQ or TT. Of course, he could also have 99 or 88 i.e. he may raise with a full house on the turn if he thinks you are capable of coldcalling with an overpair or a flush draw.
Jim coldcalled Roy Cooke's raise on the flop. That would suggest he was on the flush hunt. With this in mind, a raise with AA or KK on the turn was automatic. And with the pot that large, even if Roy Cooke knew Jim held an underpair with just the two outs, the raise was still called for.
Yes. Your points are good ones. You are quite correct when you say that a raise by Roy here does not rule out AA or KK because if he puts Jim on a flush draw, he is going make him pay.
Having said that, the fact that Roy raised the turn still makes it more likely that he has QQ or TT as opposed to KK or AA. When it is Roy's turn to act on the turn, the pot has 20 small bets. If he has AA and puts Jim on QQ/JJ, Roy's call would offer Jim 22 small bets for a 2 small bets investment. Of course, Jim would only have a 22:1 shot and therefore would be taking much the worst of it by calling. In fact, by offering Jim a "cheap" call on the turn, Roy could induce Jim into now raising on the turn with his QQ/JJ as Jim would then be putting Roy on Overcards. If the blind then just calls Jim's raise, Roy could well have an opportunity to reraise here with AA.
In practice, you are probably right: I would raise with AA if I were Roy even if I thought Jim only had JJ/QQ. Roy also has to contend with the big blind. If he has an overpair to the board, Roy would want to raise to get one of them out. A lack of a raise would result in 4 bad cards for Roy on the river as opposed to just 2 if he were to raise.
Bottom line: tough spot for Jim on the turn. I think a fold is correct.
I've read his column. He plays like a moron sometimes too. Needless to say I'm not overly-impressed with his game. In any event, giving any player too much respect is almost as bad as not giving them enough.
Clearly you didn't believe he had the overpair pre-flop. What could he have had that would induce you to fold on the turn, when all of the pre-flop action didn't? Full-house nines or quad deuces? I hardly think so.
But it was the big blind who overplayed his draw, likely costing you the pot. Still, I would've 3-bet it on the turn and called (or bet) the river if he kept coming.
After reading the responses, I think I should have capped the betting pre-flop even though it goes against the grain to put in 5 bets to take a flop with pocket Jacks. Because of the special situation here the extra bet can buy me a lot of leverage later on. Roy may not have raised the flop bet if I capped pre-flop. He may not have raised the turn bet if I had re-raised on the flop with my over pair which might have given me a cheap showdown instead of being bet out of the hand. The other problem with not capping pre-flop is that I have limited my hand since with AA and probably KK Roy knows I would definitely cap.
Thanks for all the responses. I will be needing a lot of help in beating this $30-$60 game.
"The other problem with not capping pre-flop is that I have limited my hand since with AA and probably KK Roy knows I would definitely cap."
Well, this shouldn't be a problem. Surely, you vary your play enough such that Roy can't rule out AA or KK for you just because you did not cap preflop.
In fact, if you had AA, I would suggest that the better preflop play is to not cap it. I mean, the hand did not have multiway action. You only had 2 opponents. You could gain a lot on later streets by not capping with AA preflop. After all, you are only giving up 2 small bets by not capping. Surely, that can be recouped on the turn.
My guess is that it was a good fold on the turn. I might have three bet the flop, then mucked on the turn if Roy four bet the flop, but I don't know. If you and Roy have been playing quite a bit together, though, then there may be cause to rethink this hand. I don't know how you play, but if Roy has you pegged as the 'type of guy who will lay down an overpair', then it's possible he ran over you here.
Jim,
I'm curious about something. There seems to be as many different reasons to play a particular limit as there are players. Rounder has stated many times that he looks for the softest game in the house, no matter the stakes. Others prefer to play with people they have a read on because they feel this gives them an edge. Of course, as good a read as you have on them they might have on you.
I believe before you moved to LV you mentioned that 30-60 at Bellagio is the toughest game in the country to beat. From your last line of your post here you haven't done that yet, at least not consistently, why not simply pick a softer game? Do you play for the challenge and the competition? Are you working your way up to higher limits? I'm just wondering because from what I read here most people are in it for the money.
If you feel these questions are intrusive I will undersdtand if you don't answer.
I don't mind answering. I enjoy the competition and when I watch the other players in the $30-$60 game I feel I have an edge in this game if I can get into the long run with it. I enjoy playing correctly and getting a good result. As long as I win money at poker, I am not overly concerned about my hourly rate since I do not live on poker winnings. In addition, I enjoy learning by watching top players and experts like Roy Cooke, Mason Malmuth, and others in live play.
'
The background:
This is an online game which plays normally before the flop (decent amount of preflop raising, maybe 3 players on average seeing each flop). However, the game is playing very tight postflop. A bet on the flop often wins the pot, and we don't see a showdown very often.
I pick up the usual holding, 94 off in the BB. 3 middle to late position limpers and the SB calls. The flop comes 3 3 4 rainbow.
The SB (a pretty good player) leads. I don't think the SB would lead here with a 3 because there is a very good chance that he will get no callers and win the absolute minimum on his hand. I therefore put him on a 4 or a bigger pocket pair.
Is this pot too small to go after or is it worth a fight?
Of course, there's many more combinations of hands for the SB with 4x than a pocket pair, but about half the time he has a 4, his kicker will be bigger than mine. So, what's the play?
Thanks, Puggy
Puggy,
If the SB checked to me I would have led. But the SB grabbed the initiative. Probable hands include:
1) A four, in which case you would often be out kicked
2) A straight draw, for which you may not even be a favorite over
3) An overpair, in which case you are have maybe five outs
4) A three, if someone like me was in the SB since I like to bet trips to cover my steals. Against a three you are dead meat.
The SB got there first with his bet and you don't have much to take it back from him. Wait for better opportunities to take small pots out of the blinds.
Regards,
Rick
Raise or fold. It really all depends upon what you think of the SB. Folding is not a bad option. You have very little invested with a marginal holding.
Bruce
10/20 thru 40/80:
QQ and JJ:
These are two hands that I think that you should play very aggressive BTF especially if you're in late position. In the Jim thread below it shows why you should be aggressive BTF. If you play these hands passively you're in a guessing game especially against a good player who knows that you will lay down a big hand. I play in California and will Capp the pot almost 90% of the time. It let's you play your hand much better after the flop. In Las Vegas where there are four raises I can't give an answer because my play there has been limited. Do you think that this is too aggressive for the Cal games?
You have more capped pots in California than Vegas for two main reasons. First in Vegas there are four raises allowed which inhibits the action and second the California games play looser. I thinking capping with marginal hands like JJ or QQ becomes a function of how many players will enter the pot. If there will be a large multiway pot I would not cap it but on the otherhand if the pot is three way I would be much more inclined to deviate from ideal strategy and cap with marginal hands such as smaller big pocket pairs and big suited connectors. I find in California in a multiway pot that capping really gains very little psychologically. Often the capper is someone who has initially just limped in and now caps it for dubious reasons.
Bruce
I don't put JJ in the same class as QQ - I consider JJ to be a med. pair and play it more like 99 than KK.
Capping loose aggressive multi way pots with hands like this is suicide. Heads up of course everything changes.
I'm in the Big blind with A6o and there are 6 preflop limers. The flop comes 6 6 K
I bet out into the field and get two callers. Should I have gone for a check raise? I figured I might get raised and could reraise, there were a lot of people in the hand after all.
turn: K
Now I Figured that with 2 callers out a field of 6 someone had a king. I check, 2nd player checks, last player bets out and I fold.
river is a 2.
It goes check check between the remaining players and Kings and 6's with an 8 kicker brings in the pot. Was I crazy for folding my full house? Should I have bet out on the turn? I thought surely someone had a better full house.
Thanks, Rob
Sometimes you just have to call them down.
Betting out on the flop I think is the best play here. You don't mention the limit you're playing but if it's 3-6 or 5-10 no one will put you on a 6 because they would all slowplay this kind of hand.
Your mistake came on the turn. You should bet out and see where you are. Going for a checkraise is kind of risky on the turn because you have no expectation you're going to see a bet from either opponent. As it happens you probably will win the pot right there. If you run into a king they will raise. At this point I would check and call it down unless the other two players got into a war.
/
If it makes you feel any better I did almost the exact same thing as you about a week ago. I had 9-3 in the big blind. Flop comes 3,3,Q. I check thinking I will check-raise. It gets checked around. The turn is a Q. The small blind comes out betting. I put him on a Q and fold. He wins with ace high. I don't know if it answers any of your questions but it may make you feel better to know someone did the exact same thing.
You don't say how many people checked the flop.
Since no one bet the flop, I am not sure how you can fold the turn unless you know your opponent real well.
As Mr. Fekali likes to say: Great laydowns do not a winning player make (at least in limit poker).
Generally speaking, at 20-40 or higher, a limper doesn't have a king. But with 6 limpers it's more possible that one does.
Once you bet the flop, however, and were not raised, this could mean that neither opponent has a king. You didn't specify the exact nature of the flop. If there was a flush draw on board, it would be more likely that neither has a king.
On the turn, I would also have checked, but I would have called, given the above, the fact that the bet came from the last player, and the fact that there was only one other player left behind you.
Neither opponent had a card higher than an 8? One player turned over his 8-7 (!?) and the other guy souped? What did they expect to make when you bet into a flop of K-K-6? There must have been a flush draw on board.
I am just guessing that this is not a 30-60 game :-)
Your fold on the turn was wrong - OK to bet out on the flop and then bet it out on the turn for sure - if you get raised then maybe you fold but to fold the full house with no resistance is pretty weak poker.
$10-$20- A solid but not overly aggressive player (EP) limped early, followd by a solid aggressive player (MP) in middle position. I limped in the sb w/44, BB called. 4-way.
The flop was 984r. I bet, BB folds, EP calls, MP raises, I re-raise, EP calls, MP caps the betting. I called, EP called. The turn was an off 6. I check (going for a check/raise), EP checks, MP checks!! The river was a 7. I check, EP bets, MP calls, I fold. EP had 99, MP had 98s. btw- I did not fold for only fear of a set, but because I thought the 2 possibilities of a set AND JTs added up to not boding well for an overcall with my baby set. Was this a terrible fold on my part?
Given the hands held, it's almost inconcievable that no one bets the turn here. Even though it saved me a sure $40 and possibly $60, how terrible was my check/raise attempt? Thanks.
Kevin
On the flop, I think EP should raise your bet with top set but it really doesn't matter since the round got capped anyway as it was supposed to with two flopped sets.
On the turn, I agree that it was bizare no one bet here given all the action on the flop. Nevertheless I don't like the check-raise attempt here. You should simply bet out and figure you will probably get raised which allows you to re-raise on the expensive street. Check-raising may well result in getting less money into the pot even when someone bets than just leading out.
On the river, it was risky for EP to lead out with four parts to an open ended straight on the table. EP is a strange player. The guy never bets his hand until the river when it is now easy for him to be beat. I think your fold was right given that any Ten or Five gives someone a straight and it is bet and called by a third player.
Thanks Jim: As it turns out, EP was also going for a check/raise on the turn. I guess he was so upset that it got checked behind him, he figured he wasn't about to miss another bet on the river!??
Call the river. You will sleep better at night.
"inconceivable", hmmmmm.....
"THAT WORD YOU KEEP USING -- I DON'T THINK IT MEANS WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS."
-- Indigo Montoya
in·con·ceiv·a·ble (nkn-sv-bl) adj.
1). Impossible to comprehend or grasp fully: inconceivable folly; an inconceivable disaster.
2). So unlikely or surprising as to have been thought impossible; unbelievable: an inconceivable victory against all odds.
I was unaware that I KEEP using this word. But the above is EXACTLY what I thought it meant, and what I meant.
Kevin
Not only are you a good poker player but you have an extensive vocabulary. Please don't use such big words for us mere mortals. By the way could you e-mail me and let me know who was that 10-20 player who you were referring to that was the best at that limit. Thanks Larry
Kevin:
Loosen up! I was making a joke, and a reference to the classic film "Princess Bride." I don't know if you have ever used the word before or not. My point is just that you will see people turn over hands sometimes that you can't believe -- so "inconceivable" becomes a somewhat protean concept.
SW
Sorry Scott-
Never saw "Princess Bride". (I probably should get out more). I thought your point was that I should've considered 4th street would've got checked around. I didn't mean to sound tight-assed about it though. Take care.
Kevin