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Abdul Jalib,
Someone told me you have a web page of sorts that explains your philosophy of 100% raising/folding. I would like to read it, how do I get to this information. Roy Cooke says nice things about you in a recent Card Player artical. I read your posts I'm becoming a fan.
SPM, ...currently Mayor of Any2card Town...
SPM,
A while ago I critcized a post you made for having some "grammatical" errors. Since then I have read your other posts and it seems I was in error. You are FUNNY, period. Personally, I think you are great for 2+2 and I look forward to reading any future posts. Forget Abdul, when's your website coming out?
"SPM, ...currently Mayor of Any2card Town..." - I laughed for 5 minutes straight.
Dear El Gato,
If you think SPM is funny in text, you should be at a table with him. His wit is razor sharp and so quick that it will have you screeching laughter. I played with him last week and he was in top form. His retorts are one right after the other. It boggles the mind how his mind can formulate such amazing comments so damn quickly. And then there's his "tip-mobile"...but I can't describe that..you have to be there.
desire
I concur with the Mayor. You should have raised and then bet after the flop as well, in my opinion.
As for the Mayor, you may want to relate once more for the new guy what happened to you when you went cap crazy with pocket queens against me and the flop came A K Q rainbow...hehehe.
NOT rubbing it in..see you this weekend :))
Seeing the lady in the red visor is always expensive. Are you a pro?
SPM, ...trying to get a little for the lady in the red visor...
Rick,
John said brilliant because I'm the bald mentor. Your the "pretty boy" mentor. He'll mention you next time.
Vince.
Vince,
John does not need a mentor for baldness.
Regards,
Rick
I have AhJh on the button, in a full 40/80 game.
Everyone folds. I raise. SB (very weak, loose player) calls. BB (very good player, although willing to call with a wider variety of hands in the blinds) calls as well.
The pot is 3 BB
The flop comes J43 - with 2 spades (J being a spade).
SB checks. BB bets. I raise. SB folds. BB 3 bets.
I know that the BB knows I'm a solid/tight player, and I think it highly unlikely for him to 3 bet with a flush draw. In order for him to 3 bet, he has to think one of the following : 1. that I am on a flush draw trying to get a free card. 2. that I have AK/AQ trying to get a free card. 3. that I have an overpair, and he almost definitley has to have a J (not two pair, as he would not have called with J4, J3 or 43) or a set
I put him on a weaker J, like KJ, QJ or a set of 4s or 3s. I'm either way ahead or way behind. I call the 3 bet.
The turn is a Ad.
He checks.
This gives me zero information about what he had. If he had a set, he would check/raise me, thinking I have an ace and would bet it. If he just had a Jack, he would probably fold it now due to my strength (the only thing he could beat is a flush draw, notice he'd lose to a J with a higher kicker, QQ, KK or AK, AQ, AT, hands that he are afraid of), and since I'd bet on the river even if a flush didn't come, he may fold then too....so it seems likely that I'm losing more bets if he has a set, but gaining nothing if he doesn't....I just want to make sure I get one bet from him if I'm ahead, and lose just one bet to him if I'm behind....so checking seems like the way to accomplish this feat
I check.
The turn is a blank (let's say 7d).
He bets.....I call.
He turns over J8.
Comments?
He's going to 3-bet the flop with any jack or any pocket pair because you should raise his bet with just about anything to let him know there will be a showdown, increase your leverage on a later street and knock out the sb. His check on the turn screams "one pair;" he has no reason to believe you'll bet his set or 2 pair for him. Your check on the turn was a mistake, IMO.
thanks for your opinion....you wrote : "His check on the turn screams "one pair;" he has no reason to believe you'll bet his set or 2 pair for him. Your check on the turn was a mistake, IMO. "
If this is definitely true (that he has only one pair - and that pair is likely Jacks), and he is likely to fold if I bet the turn (this is my opinion), then a bet on the turn is a big loser....I want him to bet the river, or call a river bet from me. If he has a Jack, he has zero outs.
you have to bet turn to make him pay if he is on a draw
the turn is the time to make him pay with your good hand...the river is never the place to try and make up lost bets (he may have caught a card and drawn out on you)
Why on earth would you check the turn? You just improved by catching nearly the best card you could have caught, and you are going to give him a FREE chance to suck out on you? AND you have POSITION. A bet on the turn is MANDATORY. You are lucky he didn't suck out on you on the turn. If he check-raises the turn, I would call him down with my top two.
Dave in Cali
I too would have bet the turn. However, I suspect kx earned a big bet by slow-playing (checking) the turn and inducing a river bet. The skilled opponent in the blind with a naked jack should rightfully fold when the pre-flop raiser bets the ace on the turn. This play was profitable, but way too passive for my taste. Once kx induced the river bet, I agree that he should've popped his opponent another $80 and made him pay to see "top two" at a showdown. A worthy opponent may not pay off the extra bet on the river, but you'll sure give him second thoughts about his ability to put you on a hand.
I agree. That's what I thought people would have a problem with - the fact that I just called the river. A river raise is great, because it may seem to the skilled Big Blind that I missed my flush and now had a desparation raise to try to win the pot.
I believe the turn check was perfect...but I am ashamed of not raising the river.
Thanks for your opinion Dave. Please notice however, that he had zero outs on the turn. And if I bet, I'd likely get zero bets, however, with a check, I did get one bet out of him. I'm 100% sure with the hand he had (J8), that I would not have gotten 2 bets out of him (turn and river).
Given that, do you still hold the same opinion? (I just wanted to make sure I pointed that out to see if that changes anything). Thanks for the input!
You said big blind was a very good player yet he called a raise with J,8 (suited?). Do any of the other posters think that this is a hand that a blind should be defended with? Poor poker IMHO.
I described him as "very good player, although willing to call with a wider variety of hands in the blinds"
Given that I am on the button, and the small blind calls....I think its worth a call..for any player.
I'm going to go against the popular response of betting the turn. You described this player as solid, he should have had a much stronger hand then he did. And although I know the results ahead of time your thinking seems sound to me, had you bet the turn he would have surely folded.
see my post below (meant to post here).
When you factor in the fact that it's a steal situation, I think the consensus is correct. If the raise came from, say, two slots earlier, I would have played it this way because now the blind has to respect the raise a lot more, which makes the 3-bet much scarier.
I've read the other posts, and while I'd probably have bet the turn, I actually think this is a very interesting hand.
It's interesting, because had you played this hand with both of your cards face up AND you knew he'd fold a worse jack, checking the turn is the only play. I'm not as critical as the others because if he does not have specifically a spade or straight draw, a free card is not terrible. On the other hand, if he has a set, you're glad you checked.
The only problem is you can't see his cards or know what he'd fold. He may also have check raised you with AK...
= Raider
Raider wrote : "The only problem is you can't see his cards or know what he'd fold. He may also have check raised you with AK... "
I can not see his cards, that is correct, but based on the betting (the flat call preflop), the 3 bets on the flop, how I know how this player plays, and how I know how this player thinks I play....it led me to believe with a very high degree of certainty that he had just a Jack.
He would have 3 bet AK preflop, I'm 90% sure of that.
Originally I agreed with you but I think you/we have to put more weight on the fact that he raised first in on the button. This means he could have a very wide variety of hands, even if he is a tight player.
I cannot explain such bizarre plays. It doesn't even begin to make sense even if you were trying to "vary your game" to come in with Trey-Deuce suited under the gun or Ace-Five offsuit under the gun in a full tabled limit hold-em game. They must have misread their hands or were drinking something.
Jim,
Two weeks ago I three-bet a solid early raiser with A4o. The day after I made the play I bought a pair of reading glasses ;-). Getting old is tough.
Regards,
Rick
"Although, you have done it alot and in most cases been right, so overall, are you ahead or behind on those types of laydowns?I would have to guess that you are ahead in the overall picture with those plays"
"Most cases" is not enough.
Vince
No doubt I still have a lot to learn...
If you're talking about about folding for a bet on the river, I agree that most cases is not enough, but calling 2 cold on the turn in a situation where it can get re-raised behind you AND you could be drawing 100% bonofiably dead, is a completely different story.
It's different not only because it's a multi-way pot, but I truly feel that over 90% of the time one pair just isn't going to cut it here, and it's going to cost 3 big bets to find that out. (Anytime I call the turn with a hand as opposed to a draw, I'm much more apt to call the river). Even if I did have 8 outs to two pair, I was getting less than 4:1. If it got re-raised behind me my odds are cut to 3.5:1, all the while the possibility exists I'm drawing dead (I know I keep mentioning that but I think it's important).
Anyway, this post has given me much to think about. Thanks.
Kevin
"No doubt I still have a lot to learn... "
This is either a false statement or a statement that is true for most of us.
Kevin,
First, let me remind you that Jim Brier, one of the best hand analysis guys here on this forum, said he would fold also. Jim plays higher than I do. Jim has been touted by Roy Cooke and I believe Mason as a very good player. On the other hand I have a big mouth. I also allow myself to be a little more skeptical of my opponents when I have Aces and the board is not paierd.
Vince
Well Abadaba, I was just telling David yesterday that perhaps we were beginning to see a new Ababdaba -- someone who would concentrate his considerable talents on poker rather than insults. But as usual, you prove to be a disappointment.
I suggest you read Jim Brier's post above. You may also want to read the warning we give in HPFAP-21 about playing hands that contain a deuce or trey in them. See page 187 in the "Playing Shorted Handed" section.
Mason,
I have a suggestion for you. Ask around at either of the cardrooms in which Abdul is well known and see how many people you can find, besides yourself of course, who will say a cross word about him. This may give you a little perspective.
His point in this post was quite simple and it was not insulting. A while ago he was discussing the merits of open raising with every hand that you (you being a generic you - winning poker player- not you Mason specifically) open with. You began insulting him and coming up with a barage of "great" poker players who do not play this way and in fact open limp much of the time. Abdul simply noted that one of the hands that one of your "great" players limped with was a hand that he should not have been playing at all, let alone raising with. Had you qualified your statement a few months ago to say, "If you are occasionally going to add deceptive hands such as 3,2s perhaps you should open limp with more hands that have real value to disguise your real trash..." or something to that effect.
I thought the point of his post was quite simple. If you are going to compare great players who always open-raise to great players who sometimes open-limp, at least make sure that they are playing the same caliber hands or the results will be inconclusive.
Regards
I was in Vegas in Oct. and played with Abdul. I thought he was a perfect gentleman. At one table we were playing with three real jerks and Abdul handled the situation with a lot of class. I haven't digested all of his stuff on his web page but I think it is a great contribution to Holdem, especially the short-handed stuff. (Abdul-the next time I come to Vegas I will be a non-smoker!)--Mike
Lonestar,
Darlin', unfortunatley, I believe that you are the one missing the point. I have never met Abdul. I will be in Vegas later this month and hope to meet you both. First let me say that I do not oubt Abdul's ability at playing or discussing poker. More specifically Holdem Poker. I don't believe I've seen him address stud. Maybe Omaha. But his posting about Holdem is enough to convince me that he is one of the best. His thoughts should be appreciated and valued by all who (or is it that, excuse my english) post here.
Quite frankly I believe Mason knows that. The point you miss has nothing to do with 3,2o or talk about great players. The point reflected in Mason's "Abadaba" and Abdul's posting of the 3,2 hand in the first place is that these two fellows just don't like each other. Being a person that is loved by everyon I don't understand the behavior of these two but as long as they both keep posting I will accept there little squabbles. Besides the discussion of the merits or non-merits of playing weak hands that grew out of this 'jealousy" relationship is worth the little jabs they toss each others way. Boys will be boys. Or don't you agree. LONESTAR - Wow, I love that handle.
vince
Vince,
I agree with your point. I believe this feud started when some articles were written by Mason in poker magazines. He routinely attacked various posts made by Abdul on rgp with comments like "Some internet poster made the following comments; here is why they are wrong...". On at least a couple of occasions, Mason deleted Abdul's posts for no reason that we could determine other than they disagreed with MM comments or philosophies. It has now become a battle of wills that will likely not ever be resolved.
As to Abdul posting on games other than holdem, he is a pretty solid stud player though he doesn't play it very often. He would likely say there are people far more expert than he to post about it. He plays a very good game of Omaha HL, but again, doesn't play it nearly as often as holdem. Since most of the situations that he posts about involve hands he was in or personally witnessed, these usually occur in holdem.
Regards-
P.S. For those who read my previous post, please excuse the fragmented sentence. I know better than to post when I am really tired but the attacks on my husband made me emotional enough to use bad judgement and post anyway.
Regards
Don't you know ANYTHING about poker Abdul???
32s UTG is a RAISING HAND!!!!!
Oh wait, no, it's a limp-reraising hand!!!!!
Go Figure on how THAT guy played it...
Seriously though, 32s and A5o are asking for trouble being played UTG and I don't care who you write for or how good you supposedly are. I cannot see that you would have any EV on this play, except for maybe NEGATIVE EV.
Something I have discovered: a lot of people can talk a really good game, but when it comes to practice, they are still way too loose and probably a small winner at best if not a loser. I met a man who could quote mason and david verbatim from half a dozen books. A walking encyclopedia of 2+2 quotes and anecdotes. But he kept calling my raises with KJ and losing to me with kicker trouble on the river. And he would probably play 32s or A5o UTG.
The point of this is not to point fingers, since I don't know who you are talking about anyway. The point is that would you want someone else to say these things about you? Are you really a winner? Do you really put your knowledge and skills into practice at the table?
I am sure you do Abdul....
My last trip to vegas I did not play any offsuit aces less than ATo and I never lost to a better kicker. Felt pretty good.
Actually, if I HAD to play A5o or 32s UTG, I would probably rather play 32s (easier to get away from), but it's sort of like choosing between smallpox and plague....
Dave in Cali
Dave:
Just a small point. But if "My last trip to vegas I did not play any offsuit aces less than ATo and I never lost to a better kicker."
You are probably playing a little too conservatively.
A similar example would be the person who when he bluffs no one ever calls. He's probably not bluffng enough. Or, when you call (on the end) you always catch your opponent bluffing (or at least have the better hand). You are probably not calling enough.
Playing offsuit aces less than ATo might cost you some earn here and there, but it is not a major leak in a standard loose full table game.
- Andrew
you may be right about this one Mason. I think because I was basically winning most of the time, I was erring on the side of slightly too tight, most likely in order to protect my win. Illogical, I realize, but I don't claim to be perfect. However, I will sometimes play A9o or even A8 or A7 if late and first in, but I usually raise. Good point though.
If you are going to make an error early in the hand you should probably be slightly too tight. At least this way you avoid compounding errors later on. Late in the hand you should probably be a little too loose.
Epilogue... Last night, I was playing in a $15-$30 game with one of the 2+2 website participants who witnessed Mason's exemplar player playing fishy in general and early open-limping with 32s in particular. Also in the game was the Poker Digest author whom we both saw open-limp early with A5 the previous night. Once in this second game when "Poker Digest" open-limped early, what do you think he revealed in the showdown? 32s! We were rolling on the floor laughing our asses off!
-Abdul
Both of these hands are instumental in making a wheel. A valuable hand in Hi-Lo Hold'em.
I now know that you are referring to Hal when you talk about the person who played the 32 suited. So the question is how well does this person play? The answer is very well though too loose at times.
For those who don't know, Hal has vision problems and is legally blind. When playing poker he has to sit in one of the ends seats or else he can't follow the action at all. Also, Hal finds The Mirage a little easier to navigate around in so because of that he has basically stayed at the $20-$40 level while the most of the other good players all moved to $30-$60 or higher at The Bellagio.
So what makes Hal so good? It is the fact that he plays his hands extremely well after the flop. I could give some examples of plays that I have seen from him, which virtually no one else makes at that level, but I don't think it is fair to Hal to expose some of his tricks.
But Hal, in my opinion, does have a couple of weaknesses. The most obvious one is that he plays a few too many hands. He also believes in rushes to some degree and if he wins a couple of good pots will frequently play the next hand no matter what he has or what his position is.
But the bottom line is this. Since The Bellagio opened approximately two years ago I believe that Hal has been the biggest winner in The Mirage $20-$40 game by far. I believe this based on my observation and what others have told me. (As one Mirage regular put it, "Hal is the luckiest player I know." But I (meaning me) know better.)
A more interestng question is how would Hal do in the bigger games against other players who play as well on the flop and beyond but also play less hands. I believe that Hal would do very well in these games because he would quickly stop playing as many hands as he does. (If he doesn't, he would have some problems. But he understands how to play hold 'em very well and should adapt quickly against tougher opponents.)
As for the Poker Digest author, I have no idea who you are referring to. I am not affiliated with Poker Digest in any way and don't vouch for the skill of any of their writers.
By the way, just to set the record straight for any of our readers, neither David not I advocate ever playing a trey-deuce suited or an ace-five offsuit in early position. But both of us do recognize a good player when we see one even if he does make some mistakes.
ROTFLMAO, though it would be rude for me to say in public exactly why.
-Abdul
mason said: "As for the Poker Digest author, I have no idea who you are referring to. I am not affiliated with Poker Digest in any way and don't vouch for the skill of any of their writers"
last i looked you are the same mason m who is "Poker Digest's Strategy Consultant"
and sklansky's an author there too. you wouldnt vouch for his skill? but you would vouch for this blind dude who plays 23s utg at 20-40? what are the directions to the bellagio again?
I suggest that you look again. Neither David not ZI have any affiliation any more with Poker Digest.
Mason
you wrote:
"By the way, just to set the record straight for any of our readers, neither David not I advocate ever playing a trey-deuce suited or an ace-five offsuit in early position. "
Now the poker world is hanging here, we need an answer. And it has to be specific and absolute and irrevocable. If you do not advocate playing 32s UTG, then where EXACTLY is the cutoff for this hand? And what about A5o? Don't leave us hanging! We are all ready with our notebooks and little hand ranking charts and calculators and simulators, just waiting for the words that will start us on the path to total enlightenment! Wait a second, I thought I was talking to Sklansky! :-)
Dave in Cali
If the flop comes 54A you got to like it.
Full Table 15 - 30 hold em game. I'm on the button with ducks. It gets folded to me. The BB is tight and won't defend without a good hand. The SB is loose and has alot of chips. I'm curious as to who takes a shot with this one and who dumps it.
I gave it a shot and raise to 30, SB calls, BB folds. I really can't imagine a flop I'm going to like that doesn't include a 2, but i got a decent one: 3c, 4c, 5h.
SB checks, I bet, he calls.
The turn is a 9h. SB checks, I bet he calls.
The river is a 2c, putting a 4 straight and a flush out there. SB bets and its up to you. Will post results under as I'm off work in a few minutes and am headed to the casino so won't have time to wait for some responses. Its time to Gamb00l!
I called and the SB had pocket 10's and I take down a nice pot with my 3 ducks. He wasn't too happy with my play, but it was the start of him giving back all his chips and then some.
The SB should be upset about his own play, not yours...IMO he played terrible. I'd re-raise almost everytime out of the SB w/ TT vs a button open - raise. I've most likely got the best hand and would love to get QJ or a bare high card out of the BB. On the flop I'd continue to pound. I'd most likely bet-reraise, since I think the button would raise any range of hand here; this includes a hand like 66-99, A5, A4 - all which I can beat, while I'm behind AA-JJ and a set.If I were 4 bet on the flop I'd check-call to the river or check - fold on the turn(depending on the player). If the hero didn't 4 bet (or even raise me for that matter on the flop) I'd fire on the turn and call any raises and check-call the river. The interesting situation would be if the hero called the re-raise on the flop and then raised on the turn, depending on my read of the opponent, I'd be inclined to lay my TT down at this point. Any comments?
Doug,
Haven't read the results yet. I think you need both blinds to be tight to try to steal with the bottom two or three pairs. And if both are loose than raising with the tiny pairs is a bad play. With one lose blind it is close. Calling is an overlooked option against loose blinds who play poorly post flop.
Since the loose player called pre flop, I think you pay off the river. He could be betting scare cards (although he should be scared of an ace held by you).
Regards.
Rick
I see alot of players just call first in on the button in my game. I'm not a fan of this play at all, especially with a hand like 22 where almost all flops will look horrible. Do you make this play to try and bring in the SB?
Doug,
I don't make it often but I experiment with it. There are some thoughts on this in Feeney's book.
In a nutshell, I want three basic types of opponents as follows:
1) Players who might be suspicious that I just called (they think I might have AA and want to trap them).
2) Ones that play poorly and weakly post flop. In other words, I want players who won't bet middle pair and will give up easily post flop when they don't hit.
3) Players who will be aggressive post flop on all rounds. This gives me good implied odds for my set.
Regards,
Rick
Not that I expected any less.
J-D
I used to be very suspicious when someone limps first in on the button, however in the games I play in, it generally means an average crap hand. I've been raising out of my blind pretty liberally with medium strong hands lately against this with a good bit of success.
Rick,
If the BB is tight, you don't think 22 is worth playing heads up, with position, against a random hand with dead money in the pot?
I am not saying it is or it isn't, but I do think this is an interesting discussion.
My theory is, which may be completely wrong, is that a random hand is only going to flop a pair or better around 30% of the time. So you should be able to steal this on the flop a decent percentage of the time. So, if you can steal this on the flop maybe 20% of the time, and your going to flop a set another 12% or so, I would think this 32% would be enough to play 22 heads up profitably.
That 30% doesn't include the times that they flop a draw, which is actually a better draw than they know because not only are they on a draw, but they have two overcards to you.
Also, if you can't steal it on the flop you have no idea where you are. They could be on a draw, or they could have a pair.
So maybe this play isn't worth getting heads up with unless you think your opponent will lay it down on the flop.
I sometimes play in a pretty tight 10/20 game (I would much rather play the aggressive 15/30 game, but it sometimes doesnt go), so blind stealing in late position is a pretty interesting topic to me.
My cutoff on blind stealing (for pairs) is usually 55 and up unless the blinds are tighter than normal, then I will steal with almost anything.
Anway, I any input would be great.
Derek
PS - I noticed for the first time last night that your name was in the credits in Mike Caro's book of tells video. Which player were you?
Joe,
Too tired to do any analysis but in the video I was the "Dork" who was calling for chips in the green sweater (I'm not 100% sure about the sweater). The odd thing is that I never go all in in a real limit ring game so I really had to "act".
I was also sitting at the table for a couple hands and looking on. Tell Vince I didn't look too "pretty".
Regards,
Rick
I'm not saying it's correct to slow-play AQ in this situation, I'm just telling you what your opponents are thinking. They think you have AK, and they want to make sure they're not beat before they bet.
I think it's a bad idea to play AQ or QJ with all the preflop raising. But having done so, it would be correct to slow play QJ, since it probably isn't a winner when flopping one pair.
The AQ player may have been better than you think, since when she bet, the QJ raised you out. Maybe she knew this would happen. But whatever happened, she's going to call with top pair top kicker, and you should have called with AA.
Like I told Vince, this post has given me much to think about. And believe me, I WILL mull this one over for a while! For now, we just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see a cold call as being profitable poker here in most situations. This was an exception. Thanks for your input.
Kevin
"At one point in a full game he cold called a raise with J3s in a hand where I was wondering if my call of the raise in the SB and 4 way action with KQs was too loose."
Hey Sean, below, I say "nice post" to your reasoning. But I assumed that you were up against a good player. Against a bad player, I don't know if I would 3 bet the turn with your KT. Bad players are unreadable or at least they are tougher to read but that one advantage does not overcome their other more significant shortcomings.
I am surprised that this fellow who appears to play so poorly preflop makes sophisticated plays postflop i.e. raising the turn with the intention of checking the river with his King no kicker etc.
Against a bad player, I don't know if I would 3 bet the turn with your KT. Bad players are unreadable or at least they are tougher to read but that one advantage does not overcome their other more significant shortcomings.
Don't get me wrong, I do pay the price for plays like these by having a fairly high standard deviation. I might have been less likely to make that 3-bet had I been at a higher limit game, but when I play $10-20, I'm willing to add some variance to increase my win rate. Plus, it keeps things interesting.
I wouldn't go so far as to say unreadable though, perhaps unpredictable. While I had no clue as to what his specific holding was, I was fairly certain that whatever it might have been, my hand was better. Actually I think the combinatoric calculations in my results post were off by a little bit, and that there were even fewer ways he could have had the goofy 2 pair hands that might have beaten me.
Had the situation been a bit different, say, had he limped in early position, and check-raised me on the turn, I would have had to consider the possibilities of KQ, KJ, 66, and 33 that he may have limped in with, which would have been 18 (I think) more hands that could have beaten me, which would have about doubled the chance that I was beaten. The one part of his play that was predictable and readable were the hands he would have 3-bet me with before the flop.
I am surprised that this fellow who appears to play so poorly preflop makes sophisticated plays postflop i.e. raising the turn with the intention of checking the river with his King no kicker etc.
I forgot to mention this hand was on Paradise. 'Nuff said, right? The "raise the turn check down the river" play is really common there. I think the fish learn by osmosis or something. Most of the loose-aggressive-tricky players on there can be surprisingly sophisticated in their postflop plays, while others are just plain goofy.
-Sean
Another exception is that there are some very loose players who raise very tightly regardless of their position. That is they play a lot of hands, but if they raise, they are very strong.
I guess what is all boils down to in alot of these decisions is knowing a little about your opponents. Where in some cases it is correct to muck the AQ against an early position raiser and in others it is correct to 3 bet them. IMO poker is very situational and knowing the players is very important. If I am new to a game and don't know the players, and as was stated in another post by a very good player, one who has taught me quite a bit, I would rather give credit than cash till I know someone's play.
Regards, Fidster :^)
In addition to not giving out free crds, a turn bet is also a value bet i.e. How do you know he would fold a Jack? The pot is fair size and if he puts you on AK, he still has 5 outs. In fact, he may put you on KK/QQ with all that flop raising and decide to get fancy with a checkraise on the turn! Give him a chance.
If he has a set, them's the breaks...you call his raise and call him down on the river. Once in about a million times, you may catch an Ace or Jack and draw out on him:)
skp wrote : "In addition to not giving out free crds, a turn bet is also a value bet i.e. How do you know he would fold a Jack?"
I don't know that he would fold a Jack on the turn, but I do have opinions...and here it is: I think he'd fold it about 50% of the time..however, given that he calls the turn, I do not think he calls the river if he checks and I bet. Thus, he's only putting one bet in anyway, and I think he's more likely to put that bet in on the river than on the turn. Also, I'm not afraid of free cards. Note that a Jx is much more likely than a set, as you all have been trying to tell me not to be afraid of a set...thus if that's the case that he has a J, then he has zero outs. A free card is only available to him if he has a pocket pair or a flush draw ... however, I was about 90% sure he had a J or set (with obviously the odds of him having the J much higher).
I'm not particularly upset ("you ignorant slut" is a Saturday Night Live line), and I don't see how the original post could be considered a put-down. If I hadn't posted it, one of those 2+2er witnesses likely would have. It's just the truth.
-Abdul
So what. So you saw someone who some of us think is a good player play a hand that can virtually never have positive value. If your point was to point out that good players sometimes play very funny hands in perhaps very funny ways why don't you just do that and leave the personal references to me out of it.
By the way, I have been known on occasion to play a hand like that. In my book POKER ESSAYS, VOLUME II I tell the following story on pages 287 and 288.
Story No. 4: How good are our books? One day, several years ago, I was in a $20-$40 hold'em game at the Mirage. I had been playing for a while and was about even for the day when I was dealt the
5h 2h
right under the gun. Normally, I will quickly throw this hand away, but this day was different. It's hard to say exactly what came over me, but I raised it up and was called by several players. Two hearts and an ace flopped, and there was a great deal of action on both the flop and on fourth street. On the river, a third heart hit and I won a big pot with a five high flush.
About a week later, a stranger came up to me in the poker room. "Are you Mason?" he asked. "Yes I am," I answered. "I was reading your book," he went on, "but when I saw you play that five-deuce the other day, I went home and threw your book away."
By the way, of all my poker stories, this one is clearly my favorite. I just wish I could make a flush every time I played a hand like 5h2h. Then poker would really be a lot of fun.
Yes, but if you're going to play a screwy hand like that, doesn't it make a whole lot more sense to raise instead of just call? At least by raising you add some equity by the possibility of stealing the blinds.
-Sean
That depends what you think your chance of stealing is. If it is very small, you may have less negative equity by just calling.
Sean,
The trouble with a hand like this is that if you raise you are going to create a short handed situation the vast majority of the time. As cheesy as this hand is full tabled, short handed it's an absolute nightmare. You have no high, any pair you make is going to be bad, etc.
I have played 3,2s once in my poker career and even though I still think it was a good play mathematically (20/40 HM - on the button and the entire table limped in); I flopped two pair (obviously bottom two), the board paired on the turn and now I have kings and threes with a deuce kicker... oh the joy. Poetic justice; this is what is supposed to happen if you play this cheese.
Regards
By the way, of all my poker stories, this one is clearly my favorite. I just wish I could make a flush every time I played a hand like 5h2h. Then poker would really be a lot of fun.
The funny thing here is that Mason is displaying his full fishiness with the zest of a peacock. The irony is that the player who chucked Mason's book most likely improved his game.
- Andrew
I realize that you are both very skilled players and writers, and we all know that you both have many well thought out and valid points to be made. However, sometimes controversies arise and we can get a little testy. I am just as guilty of this as either of you. However, all this arguing is pretty much irrelevant to me as I will continue to read both of your work, evaluate it for myself, and do what I think the best play is based on my evaluation.
but seriously guys, lighten up!
Dave in Cali
For what it's worth, I thought your post was funny and nor particularly harsh or insulting to anyone. I don't think Mason "gets" you. Something tells me he wasn't a big SNL fan in the 70s.
The substance of the debate is actually quite meaty so I hope neither of you lets the crap about who's more insulting crowd out the poker stuff.
BTW, what's all this I hear about violins on TV? Oh.... never mind.
I'm sure badger would tell you that speed chess isn't really chess.
Damn you guys...I dropped chess and started playing poker to get away from the "Regular chess vs Speed chess" debate. Don't send me back to chesstalk.com, or even worse, god forbid...rec.games.chess.misc!!
I'm scheduled to invade Bellagio tomorrow and stay there for a week or so until enough damage is done. If you hear from me no more, go about your everyday businesses and forget about me. It can only mean one thing: Bellagio is still standing and Izmet is down.
To those who emailed me: for the umpteenth time, no, my sister is not coming.
Allah is great.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Izmet,
Have a good time, play your A game, and don't forget to bring the medical equipment necessary to apply the infamous Fekali enema (especially to those mid-week, afternoon retireee/rocks - they need one).
Travel Alert: Stay away from potential outbreaks of violence regarding the very local Abdulian/Malmuthian Fued. The main trouble spot appears to be the Bellagio 30/60.
Regards,
Rick
PS: If you hang around the cocktail lounges and look sort of lonely, you might run into something even finer than a youthful Slovenian sheep. But it is a tourist town so expect to pay top dollar, although celebrity discounts may be available (Vince may have information on how to get one).
PPS: If that rodeo is in town, try to play in games with those guys.
I'd pay good money to see that. Maybe they could do a webcast...
A) They hate each other and would not play in a short handed game together where they had to interact.
B) Abdul is one of the best short-handed/heads-up players around and Mason would never tangle with him heads-up.
Regards-
Izmet,
You are breaking my heart. I will be in Vegas from 16 Dec through 17 Jan with maybe a side trip to L.A in between. It would have been my pleasure to meet you. Contrary to what "Pretty Boy" Nebiolo says I can't get you a discount. David probably can though. He's a big star at Bellagio's.
I'm gonna go to L.A. to see if Rick really can last 14 hours or if he was just kidding. What a show that will be. Good Luck! Who know's you may just break Bellagio's and be the new owner when I arrive. I expect a free night in your new hotel if you do.
Vince
nt
Since I didn't email you...
Is your sister coming?
- Andrew
Just got called for the game, this time $20-40, and after waiting three hands where no flop was dealt (in each someone raised and won the blinds outright), I post the BB. Two middle position limpers, button limps, SB folds, I happily check with Qd 7c. Once again I know nothing much about the players except from the three hands I saw prior to posting the game seems to be fairly tight.
The flop comes
Qs 6d 4s
giving me top pair terrible kicker. Since there are only three other players in, the flop contains some drawing possibilities (plus an ace or king could come on the turn) thus giving a free card could be dangerous, and no one showed any strength preflop I go ahead and bet. I am called immediately to my left and then the next guy raises. The button folds and it's up to me.
I consider my options more carefully than usual. I figure maybe the caller limped in with some kind of medium connector. If he had a queen he surely would've raised me. But if he's on a draw why raise the other two guys out? So I'm pretty confident that the caller is drawing.
As for the raiser, he might also be on a draw and is trying for a free card since the button may fold anyway. Or he might have something like A6 and is trying to find out if his middle pair is any good. Or he might simply have a hand that beats mine like QJ.
Considering all, well at least most of, the possibilities I decide to threebet and check the turn. I might move the raiser off a middle pair, especially since a third player is in the pot who might also have something as well. Maybe I can even move him off something like Q8s or Q9 if he's real dumb or is the type that plays by feel and doesn't consider the pot odds he is getting. If the raiser calls I put him on either a draw or a hand that beats me. (If he 4-bets I'll just call.)
So then after 3betting I'll check the turn, intending to fold if he bets. No way he bets again with just sixes or a medium pocket pair like 88 since he's gotta figure me for at least queens. On the other hand, if he checks behind I intend to check the river also to try and snap off a bluff.
Anyway after I threebet the guy in the middle calls the two cold (confirming to me that he is on a draw) and the other guy just calls. The turn comes a Kh. I check, the next guy checks, and the third guy bets. I fold.
All comments are greatly appreciated. Could I have played it better? Should I have just called him down? I felt like I played the hand well but it's still nagging me. Incidently I think that if I had paired any other rank (aces, kings, jacks or lower) my flop play would have been much easier to figure out. Sorry to be so long-winded in this post but maybe you guys can point out flaws in my thinking that could be affecting me in other areas of my game. Thanks in advance, sucker
I don't think 3 betting accomplishes much here unless you also bet the turn. Also, given the position of the raiser there are many reasons for him to raise besides having top pair.
an altnernative that sometimes represents a stronger hand is to just call the raise and then bet into the raiser on the turn. In the few tight games I have played in this maneuver has been successful.
This is the biggest chip burning-get a person involved with a trash hand-loser that I hate to be involved in. We have all been there and done that. Catch just enough of the flop to make us think we have a chance. The bad part of this is "SOMETIMES" we do win with these trash hands when we get a "FREE" look at the flop. No one raising before the flop does not necessarily mean a big hand is not out there, or even AQ or KQ. Or even a Set was flopped.
I would check the flop and try to see the turn for one small bet, if possible. If the next player bets and it is raised on my right, I fold. Now I have only lost my BB bet.
I also have to consider if the player on my left who checked, that he or she, may not be hoping to check raise. The best thing that can happen is the player on my left bets, and is only called by the next player, thus I have no fear of a raise and getting trapped. If I bet out and get raised, even a position raise testing me, I am in a difficult decision making position, "to call, raise or fold?" In your case, I would hope to catch a seven, making two pair, but even then I would only check and call.
I find checking in these situations and mucking if it gets bet or raised is better than trying to guess if I have the best hand, betting and raising to find out I don't, is money saved in the long run.
May the flop be with you
Colby
You have a decent-to-good hand here with top pair in an unraised pot. You could be ahead if the raiser is on a draw, or behind to something like QJ.
Your choices are to play back, trying to drive out the caller in the middle, give up, or something more tricky.
I would just call here, and plan on betting out the flop if the third flush card does come. This puts pressure on the caller in between, since he has to fear a raise behind him, and on the raiser especially if he's on a draw.
- target
Dude...ya gotta bet the turn!
I might be wrong about this but I have alwaqys been under the impression that guys like Abdul, Mason, Gary, Badger, David all know each other personally. So, why is it that when they have a fight, a personal, name calling fight, it is done in public? You guys ever hear about e-mail, telephones, a private chat room, a motel room, a letter? Can't you just settle it like adults?
"Can't you just settle it like adults?"
Where have you been? Adults always need an audience for support. Young children on the other hand will fight it out anywhere. They haven't been touched by the need for notoriety yet.
Vince
Where have you been?
I've been sittin' on the dock of the bay watching the tide roll away, sittin on the dock of the bay, wastin time.
2000 miles I've roamed
Just to make that dock my home
Yeah I'm sittin' on the dock of the bay
Wastin' time
I think its funny and entertaining when the 2+2 posters get in to a scrap. but then again I also like the WWF.
p.s - how do you settle something "like adults"?
-
I am heading for Vegas at the middle of the month. I intend to play 15-30 Holdem unless I can convince some little old lady or man to stake me in the 30-60 or higher games. So like I was saying I will be playing 15-30 Holdem. I have been back here on the east coast since August. I have played only 2 sessions of Holdem during my stay.
My HPFAP book is no longer with us. Given that, what is the best way to prepare for my adventure?
Vince
You're obviously a solid thinking player that needs little advice. I'd say just take a little bit more time then normal before your actions to make sure your not just getting anxious.
My HPFAP book is no longer with us. Given that, what is the best way to prepare for my adventure?
Vince---I suggest you offer Mason about $25 for a used copy.
And save me a seat in the 15-30 game on Jan 13-14, unless you are still up on the balcony playing the little old lady's money.
Abe,
I have a seat on my immediate right already for you.
Vince
Bring lots of money and don't worry about your results.
Mason,
You wouldn't take advantage of little old me now would you?
Vince
Vince,
He will. Don't play any goofy games you can loose your bankroll with. There was one time you sat down at the same table as Mason just to introduce yourself and you probably lost enough money that you could have used to expand your 2+2 poker library. Don't play in a game you know nothing about.
I watched an interesting hand at my table that I wasn't involved in. UTG limps in, folded to a mid postion player MP who calls, folded to the SB who calls, and the BB checks. The flop is 10s 8c 5s. SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP raises, SB three bets, BB folds, and UTG folds, but when doing so the dealer hits his hand and exposes Ah Th. MP calls. The Turn is a 10d. SB bets and MP calls. The river is the 10c. SB checks and MP bets. SB grumbles and calls, SB had 55 for a counterfeited full house, and MP had 8s 6s, for a now better full house. Anyone think SB should fold on the river?
I think SB has to call since MP could have been pushing a flush draw. When the flush doesn't hit there is enough $ in the pot to make the call.(8.5/1)
BTW the last time I folded top pair top kicker I also would have won a gigantic pot. Was Utg's laydown a good one. I suppose SB was a tight player and UTG knew this.
Impressive lay down by UTG. Top pair, top kicker.
Folding on the river would often be a mistake in this situation. The fives should *know* that MP doesn't have a ten. Checking and calling would usually be best.
I'm really lost as to how to properly play overcards in shorthanded games after showing strength before the flop. Any advice is appreciated.
Basically, if you have overcards and especially an ace, you probably have the best hand especially heads up. Play with caution, though, as people will enter pots with weaker hands and easily could hit any card on the board for a pair.
By play with caution, I don't really mean fold. Short handed you should bet lots until someone raises you, then you should generally fold rather than call. Or reraise if you have a good hand, but probably not just overcards or a weak ace high.
Go read everything that abdul has posted or written, since he's spent lots of time thinking about shorthanded play. One of his essays is posted farther down in this forum.
- target
Hey all.
For all you mid-limit players in the SF bay area, how is the 15-30 at the Oak's card club in emeryville compared to the other mid limit games at bay 101, garden city, Lucky Chances, and AJ's?
I've been contemplating a move from 15-30 and 20-40 to 30-60 and 40-80, but would like to get in some practice against tough competition before doing so. How would you rate the competition at the Oak's? My friend who plays there regularly said that the players there play at a much higher level than those in other card rooms. Any opinions?
It is the toughest game in the bay area at that level. The 20-40 at LC and GC and even Bay 101 are cakewalks comparatively.
natedogg
disagree Players are easy reads at oaks
I downloaded my Palm pilot and saw these two hands that I was going to post. I think they were routine plays, but at the time I question my play. This was going on during a major tourment. The Game was very tight and very aggressive. In fact the game sucked, but I wanted to play with some heavy hitters and see what I could pick up.
1st Hand: 30-60 at Commerce...
I was in the BB with AQs. A Tight Pro Raised UTG all folded then Roy Cooke Raised on the button. The SB folded. What's your play and Why?
2nd: I'm on the button with ATs (Spades) all fold to LP (Roy) Raises I three bet the blinds fold. Roy put on his act and after what seems like eternity; he reraise and I call.
The flop Qh-Jh-7s: Roy bets, I've been playing very tight for two hours and I think my best play is too raise, so I do and Roy three bets. (He didn't hesitate:) What's my best play here? I thought about calling, but why not raise? I will post the results later.
1) Fold
2) I wouldn't want to re-raise. With what cards are you planning to beat him? You might easily have less than a 20% chance of winning this hand.
I may have misinterpreted what LP meant. I assumed it meant late position. If so, isn't it possible to plan on beating Roy with an ace? Wouldn't Roy (or most people) raise in this spot with many hands that ATs would play well against?
Kevin
Hand one: No brainer I folded. I was out of position and two good players were showing aggression.
Hand two was a little bit trickier. I couldn't fold pre flop because Roy would raise with a wide range of hands. I think I should have just called on the flop, because it is hard to get a free card from a good player with that flop. I called the raise on the flop, and a blank fell on the turn and I folded to a bet.
First of all, I don't consider myself qualified to be giving advice in games featuring high caliber players like Roy Cooke. But it's fun (and instrumental) for me to think about these situations so here are my opinions...
1st hand: If Roy Cooke is willing to 3-bet a tight UTG pro, I would fold and rather quickly. The suitedness of my hand wouldn't matter much in this situation against two pros, both of who are representing big hands.
2nd hand: I assume LP means late position. Again, I think you should consider the caliber of your opponent when making pre-flop decisions. I would be much less inclined to 3-bet a very strong player. That said, I think a 3-bet is correct in most situations where LP would likely use his position to put pressure on marginal hands and pick up the blinds. When he re-raises of course you call and might consider re-raising for positional and deceptive purposes. Had you done so, the flop may have played a little easier for you.
On the flop, you can't like the hearts, but they are a little less concerning heads up. I likely would have played this flop fast. But I think it should be emphasized that an additional investment of one more bet pre-flop may have gone far in easing the pressure a high caliber player like Roy, is capable of subjecting you to.
Kevin
1st hand: You fold because A) it costs you two bets to call; B) a tight pro raised UTG; C) Roy Cooke raised the tight pro who had raised UTG; D) you are in poor position relative to the other two players; and E) at least one of the players (Roy) and probably both play well after the flop.
2nd hand: There's $440 in the pot at this point; I would call $30 hoping for a King on the turn. An Ace might be good as well (if Roy has K-K or A-Q) and you've got a back-door flush draw. Personally, I would have folded pre-flop and just called on the flop, but once you got to the point where you were, call and see what the turn brings.
I'm in my local 10-20 game. The game has made a transition within the last hour from being aggressively tight too passively loose.
Anyways, small blind is seat 1 and I am in seat 6 for this hand. I have 8s10s. UTG folds, Player 1 calls, Player 2 calls, I (Player 3 call), Player 4 raises, Player 5 (button) calls, SB calls, BB folds. 6 players to see the flop.
The flop comes out 3s 7h 6h. Anyways, SB shoots out a bet. Everyone, including myself, call to the pre-flop raiser who also calls. Button raises. SB calls and everyone else calls. Pot is now $240.
Turn card comes a 4s. SB once again shoots out a bet. Player 1 raises. Player 2 re-raises to $60. here is where I call for time. I then decide to call the $60. Surprisingly Player 4 calls 60 and player 5 also calls 60. SB calls 60 and Player 1 calls 60.
Pot is now $600. No one folds the turn.
River comes a 9d giving me the nut straight. SB checks, player 1 bets, player 2 calls, I raise. All fold to SB who mucks his hand in disgust. Player 1 calls while swearing, and player 2 shows me his 5 and mucks. I take down a $700 pot.
Comments on my call on turn???
The Fish
I think you have to call with your double gutter, despite the fact that there are probably not many fives (maybe one?) left as an out. There's also the possibility of running into a higher flush. But you KNOW an off 9 is good and 6:1 should be enough to cover the times you hit and lose. I think you made a good call.
Kevin
the odds indicate your call is marginal at best. you're getting 17-3 on your call, or 5.66 to 1. your straight will come in 17% of the time. this is a small winner with expectation of $2.64.
however, the situation is much worse than that. your effective odds need to be reduced quite a bit from what the pot seems to be offering.
first, all those players have to be hanging around with _something_. it's likely that at least one is drawing to a heart or diamond flush. so, half the cards that make your straight also have the potential to make a flush for someone else, which could prove expensive for you.
second, why would the 4 cause a bet, raise, and reraise before it even gets to you? a five in the raiser's or reraiser's hand is a distinct possibility, and since the pot was raised preflop, it's distinctly possible that whoever has that one five has another one. in any case, this activity screams that a straight has been made.
so in the worst case, you're down to 2 outs, and probably down to 5. that means you're roughly a 9:1 dog. just another case where the pot odds need to be adjusted downward based on the action. also note that you've made a fundamental theorem of poker error - you played differently (i hope) than you would if you had been able to see your opponents' hands.
so i think you made a bad call. you got lucky. enjoy it, count your money, and try to avoid similar mistakes in the future, as they can be quite costly in the long run.
You are too pessimistic. with the pot being this huge I would count on spades as also being an out. with this being the case the Fish played it correctly as he had 12 or 13 outs on the turn assuming the diamond draw was out there and depending on whether the 5 in player 2's hand was a diamond. in fact, if you had a big stack of chips you might even want to cap the betting.
i'm not being pessimistic, i promise. i'm merely looking at what the pot appears to be offering and adjusting this offering for what the opponents appear to have. this is really easy in this case, as the bets and raises are pretty much neon signs. big flashing neon signs. and they all say, "you have no call here." a cap may be an option, but a fold is probably the best option.
trying to move up a little from 3-6, 4-8 took a seat in 8-16 game. very first hand posted in cutoff; dealt KK...UTG limps..fold to me i raise...fold to SB who raises..limper calls and i cap at 4 bets...flop comes J 8 3 rainbow... SB bets, limper raises, i 3 bet, SB 4 bets all call for cap on flop...I know nothing about players(very first hand with no observation), I have KK..that makes someone who would raise early with AA,KK.QQ,AK ...more likely percentage wise to have AA, which i am fearfull of.. turn comes 6 with possible backdoor flush..SB bets limper calls, I call(should I have raised
scalf,
What was he critical of? The fact that maybe you should have raised the turn. Otherwise, your play was OK.
Regards,
Rick
You played fine. Your opponent appears to be brain-dead to not fear AA, KK, or JJ after you capped preflop and on the flop. Even at 8-16 or higher, some opponents don't bother to think about what their opponents might hold--he probably just thought "I have QQ and it's an overpair."
You could have raised the turn, but I don't think it's a huge deal to just err on the side of caution and call, especially since a raise won't knock anybody out, and the limper is likely to call one more bet after taking all that heat.
-Sean
SB played the hand very poorly, and then tried to blame you for his stupidity. You played the hand very well. The Jack high flop was a key card in defining the hands. The Queens should have realized much earlier that he was beat. By the way, this is one reason I don't like 3 raise limit games. The fourth raise is very important in defining hands more clearly. Players put in a gratuitous capping raise much less frequently with 4 raises. Malmuth covers this subject in more detail in one of his Poker Essays books.
I see no reason for sb to berate your play. Yes, you could have raised the turn, but the sb overplayed his hand IMO. You defined your hand well by 4 betting pre-flop and 3 betting the flop, yet the sb STILL caps over you and leads the turn. What did he think you had? It seems you were thinking a level beyond him.
Kevin
Here are a few routine hands I've collected, from my own play or ones that friends have mailed for comment. I don't know the specific limits off the top of my head, but they should be all either 10-20 or 20-40:
Hand 1:
All fold to a somewhat loose and passive player who open-limps in late position. Hero raises with AJo in the small blind. The big blind 3-bets. (This opponent doesn't seem too noteworthy.) Flop is QJT, hero check-calls, turn A, hero check-calls, river 9, hero checks, big blind checks behind.
Hand 2:
Hero open-raises with AJo from 5 off the button. The player on his immediate left 3-bets. (This player seems fairly tight and aggressive.) Flop is ATx 2 suited, none of hero's suit. Hero check-calls. Turn is a J, hero checks with the intention of check-raising, but preflop raiser checks behind. River blank, hero bets, preflop raiser folds.
Hand 3:
UTG open-raises. UTG seemed to be a bit loose, certainly too loose with his limps, and at least a bit on the loose side with his raises, but hero wasn't sure how loose. Hero has AQo in late position, and 3-bets. Flop is A86 2 suited, none of hero's suit. UTG checks, hero bets, UTG check-raises, hero calls. Turn a 6, UTG bets, hero calls. River a Q completing the flush, UTG checks, hero bets, UTG calls.
My comments:
Hand 1, hero should have bet the flop, but I don't really mind the checks on the turn and river.
Hand 2, I don't know about the check-call on the flop. I would say it's correct if there wasn't a broadway card on board, but with an A and T I don't know. I think hero should have lead out on the turn, because you don't want to give a free card to a 1-card straight, and also don't want to have to pay 3 bets to a straight or set.
Hand 3, I think hero should have 3-bet the flop and led on the turn if checked to, or called if bet into., If AQo is good enough to 3-bet with before the flop, it should be good enough to re-raise the flop when check-raised against an opponent who might be a bit on the overaggressive side.
There's nothing remarkable about any of these hands, but I'm curious if anybody has anything to add.
-Sean
Sitting in on 20-40 Hold'em game that is very loose and aggressive. Average of 7-9 players seeing flop and always raised and capped half the time. Average pot is ranging from $850-1000 and several 1500 ones. My questions are this. What hands should I call with near the button for a raise. I had KJs and it was $40 to me. I called and then it got re-popped and it cost $80 to see the flop. Granted there were 8 players but I just dont want to play this hand for $80 but if I only wait for aces and kings I might just as well be donating the blinds. A friend of mine and I discussed hand selection in this sort of game and he said that I should loosen up a little and play hands like 87s and j10o and KQo in this type of game because I'm a very good post-flop player. 1. What hands would you play up front? 2. In this game where everything is being raised would you just limp wiht big hands and let the others raise.(AA,KK,AKs) 3.Would you play hands like A-10s and AJo in the middle? 4. Would you play only nut hands and take your chances of losing big pots and your mind? 5. Would you quit and look for another game?
Russ
playing J-10o and K-Qo is not good. It doesn't matter how good you are post-flop. The first thing I would do is try to get to the right of the action players. Ask for a seat change. Waiting for Aces, Kings and Ace-king suited is a little too tight, but it is not far off. I think their is some mention that you can play hands lik A-Js and A-Qs in S$M HFAP. I'm not 100% sure though. You might want to see how others respond
When many players are seeing the flop cheaply you should play many hands you would ordinarily fold. However if there are many raises preflop that is no longer true. And in this second case it does you little extra good to have the button.
Salutation! Raises be the key! Tighten up some even on the button.
Vince.
Russ,
You should be well bankrolled for this game since your swings will be much higher than what they will be in a typical game. But you knew that.
If it appears that it may or will be capped multi-way then the only offsuit hand I would play is AK. For suited aces stick to AK through AT. I would also play KQs QJs and JTs. Some may say that QJs and JTs can’t be played, but against this large a field it will flop enough draws to make the reward worth the risk. I’ll go against conventional wisdom and say you can play all pairs (including deuces!) so long as you think you will get six opponents or more. When you flop a set, which you should be able to bring home at least 60% of the time, and it will be a monster. But if you are paranoid about set over set or want to reduce your swings, maybe forget the bottom three pairs (plus these pairs don’t make good one-card straights)
If you can probably get in for two bets (e.g., early raise, many cold calls, you act last or almost last), then add all suited aces, and all suited connectors and one gappers down to about 64 suited. Now you definitely want to play all pairs. You might be able to play AQo but still stay away from KQo and AJo. Post flop you will rarely know where you are at when you flop a pair with the weak offsuit connectors.
The big thing is that you must be prepared to play well and continue to play well even though you can easily lose $2000 or so before hitting a hand that holds up. While waiting to win a hand, you will see many hit huge pots on hands you would never play. In the meantime your set, aces or nut flush draws cam easily miss or get cracked. But some times they come in and things go well. For those that can handle it, your average win will be huge since when things break your way you will win monsters.
Also note that these games do not go on for long. In other words, some players may rack up a big win and leave and some of the live ones will bust out. When they do and you didn’t get your share you have to ask yourself can you handle the frustration. If not, find another game.
Regarding your questions, I do think you can limp and allow the others to do the raising for you. Position won’t matter much post flop either since your raises will not narrow the field and others will usually bet your hands for you (especially sets).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the input. Whether I agree with your post or not(I do BTW), I appreciate you giving it your time instead of an easy one line solution.
Russ
Lost bet?? 3 or 4 players seeing most flops and little raising after the flop. In early postion I limp with A8 of diamonds. Middle player limps and Button calls. Flop is Q93 diamonds. I check MP checks and Button bets. I call MP folds. Flop J clubs. I check Button bets, I call. River 5 clubs I check, Button checks.. Should I have bet on the river??
You had the nut flush and couldn't find a bet once? You should bet out on the flop because no one will believe you have the flush. then if you positively, absolutely have to use a fancy play you can check the turn then raise. Then always bet the river. When you have a hand just bet it and see how no one is going out anyway.
what level game is this? this simply cannot be a mid level game if you play so poorly that you didnt check raise the turn and then bet the river with your nut flush. this has to be a joke..
if it's not, please tell me where you normally play and what you look like so we can play a couple friendly pots together.
Both responses believe I should have been firing away after the flop...As I mentioned there were 3 or 4 callers seeing most flops but little raising after the flop. I had the niut flush after the flop and certainly could have been raising but I believe I would have scared both players out if I came out raising especially with a flop that doesn't appear to have helped anybody except if they were holding diamonds. I believe by checking I got the button to bet twice whereas if I came out betting he may have called once but would not have called the turn. My concern was should I have bet the river instead of checking?? I had planed to checkraise him but he checked as I mentioned and I may have lost a bet if I would have bet the river rather than checking....
It's just one of the facets of poker that when you get a great hand, you bet it and everyone folds. On the other side of that is that time when you get a great hand you bet it and someone raises you, or you catch a few people on a draw, or someone else has a smaller monster. All these things can happen but you cannot take advantage of them if you think that everytime you bet everyone will fold. Do your job, bet your hand and let your opponents play theirs. BTW if they will fold everytime a scary flop hits I'd be betting every scary flop.
Sam: appreciate your answering my post however I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture here..I not only have a great hand (on the flop)..I have the nuts.. With 3 of the same suit on the board and I come out betting I may scare the only two players still around, maybe another diamond or high card etc. on the turn will keep one or both of them in the game for the turn card when the betting gets bigger. It's easy to bet with the nuts but I want to get as much out of it as possible. Your way I might win right there on the turn, thats not what I"m looking to do with the nuts, I'm looking to get as much value as I can out of this hand....
I think what some posters are saying here is a bet on the flop might get someone to think you are just trying to protect top pair, or are even betting middle pair with an overcard, or even on a diamond draw.So they raise your bet.Just smoothcall the raise and depending on your read of the button bet or check raise the turn. If you bet and are raised, re-raise!, then bet the river.So what if he folds to a re-raise, then he never know if you had a hand or not.(And is left thinking maybe you made a move on him!) If you check the turn and are checked behind, definately bet the river.(Ditto if he fold to this bet, he never knows if you made a move on him or not)
Your play did induce bluffs by the button but if you are convinced your flop bet would have caused both players to fold then maybe you should be semi-bluff betting more often.
You had your reasons for your play and maybe you feel you did earn two more bets than you would of had you bet the flop. Alot depends on your read of the button. If he is aggressive and makes a play at you, make him pay! By the way he checked the river, what did he have?
you were smart to just smooth call the flop. it sets you up for a super check raise on the turn and unless the person who bets on the turn is either good/tight and/or doesnt have a diamond he will likely call one more bet to see the river, where he may call again. this is basic stuff man. playing when you flop the nuts is easy. it's all the other hands that are tough. you play really tight-passive a lot?
was just looking at poker digest vol 3/#21 and it addresses this issue on page 14, matt lessinger. his article is about an unbeatable hand, but yours is close enough to make it valid. he argues that you should bet the turn cause you may not get called on the river.
While Fmonti was at the table, and clearly has a better feel for this particular hand, I'd still like to take issue with playing this weakly.
If you flopped the nuts against the weakest two nits at the table, maybe you played it properly. Otherwise, raise the dang flop!
If a flop raise lets everyone at the table know you have a made hand, you are not playing aggressively enough. Raise your top pair/likely top kickers. Raise your good draws vs enough opponents. Semi-bluff raise middle pair. Etc.
Let the mama's boys flop their trips and straights, smooth call the flop and check-raise you on the turn. It makes them feel better and they'll stay around and lay down the best hand for you when you need them too. Raise!
Jones
Fmonti-
I'm curious as to what limit you are playing. In higher limit (tougher) games, rope-a-doping a monster is rarely correct. Your thinking is opposite of what it should be.
You are willing to accept minimum profit so as not to lose your opponent. Instead, you should be thinking about how to maximize your hand! With this board, your opponent either has a hand worth continuing or does not. When he does, you should more than make up for the times when he does not, by playing this a little faster.
= Raider
Those are all good points, but... the only way you're going to win any serious money with your hand is if you can catch someone with a quality second-best holding. Sure, you might have eeked out an extra bet here somewhere by checking and calling, but what you really need to do is find someone with top-pair or better that's willing to pay you off. And you've got to charge them the maximum along the way. Why assume nobody else has anything they like? Sure, they 'probably' don't, but think how well you get paid off if they do.
That's really the trick-- finding players with quality second best hands. It's the underlying concept behind lead betting a small set into a likely overpair, or betting out with trips when a face card's on board. You've got to find someone with a hand they like-- otherwise you're just fighting for loose change.
Of course, YES! Why take the chance someone won't bet? You probably should have bet the turn for the similar reasons. You may have even gotten raised! If so, it could've been much more than a single lost bet.
= Raider
I have the same problems with timid opponents. I want to slow play them for a couple of extra bets when I think they will fold to my aggression.
Let me tell you a story.
I once raised AhQh and got one late caller. Flop came 8h4h5h. I check my nut to trap him for a couple of bets. He bet I called. Turn was 5s. I checked he bet. He was aggressive and I figure he would bet the river and I could c/r then. Problem was the river was 5d and he didn't have any problem betting his tens full. Afterward I steamed the rest of the night. This was 1/4/8/8. If your doing this at higher limits you don't belong there, because your losing many bets.
If you have this "problem" with timid opponents you should bluff more. not only will you steal more pots but they will start to get suspicious and give you action when you have a monster.
Agreed, No problem bluffing them heads up, but how to suck bets out when I now I have the good hand. Sometimes you don't get a chance to show your bluffs. Take a look at how I slow played a set in the "small stakes" section.
I can't find enough timid opponents in 10/20 or higher, as that would be me, over timid or over aggressive! I appreciate and respect your comments.
Now that I think about it I should have just bet the dam hand since they normally figure you for AK anyway. Then again I'm long past forsing AK and some know it. What to do , what to do ?
That hand I gave was long ago (flush).I still remember it like it was last night.
For those still interested.....The game was 10-20. I checked the river as mentioned hoping to chk raise when he checked I showed my flush and he mucked his cards so I didn't see his hand..Also in HEPAP on page 263, first paragraph, I think confirms my playing the hand the way I did except for possibly not betting the river where I may have lost a bet if my opponent would have called.....A thru E were all met..Further comments???
I know, slow play the big flush, fast play the small.
But slow playing heads up can and does backfire, sometimes you just can't get paid in full which is better than checking yourself into a loser. Sometimes he takes free cards, you basically want to charge him for the privilidge to lose with the 1 card flush.
Like Boris said, I think this is an image thing, if your image is that of a loose player you should play it fast heads up. If it's tight you have to slow down a little. A very good read on your opponent and your own current image helps. If you had sandbagged until the turn then raised or bet the river you would not be asking this. Suppose he had the K in suit, he's not going to bet afer it doesn't hit and may not call.
10-20 holdem with a tough crowd. Seldom more than 3 players see the flop, usually with at least one raise pre flop. I am up one stack or so with two red tens under the gun. I feel I have lost alot of money with TT in the past and I'm trying to move up to higher limits lately.So here I sit at a crossroads.Totally Undecided what to do.
I just figured with probably only 2 or 3 callers I wont be getting the odds to play for a set and surely someone would hit an over-pair to bust me.(Real positive thinker aren't I?)
I know if I come in I should raise, but by now I'm aware the whole table senses my confusion as they are waiting for me to act.I FOLD.
Well you can guess the rest but here goes.EIGHT players call!, no raises! (uh-oh)
The Flop is Kc,Qc,9s. (and I feel better, as possible made straights, 4 flushes, and 2 top pairs, and overpairs abound) Five players stay to a bet and a raise.
The turn is a 10c (and my sinking feeling returns but tempered by the fact now a made flush possible and any J completes the str8t as well)Now 4 players stay to a bet and a raise
River is a Ks (uh-oh all over again, although KQ,KT,K9, is a very real possibility)
Anyways 9-9 wins a BIG pot with nines full and I folded a nice winner. Of course a flush and str8t is shown down as well.
So once again TT costs me money! :oD
Flame on- I can take it- I'm here to learn.
I would make the routine play of raising. In a tight game as you describe you may have won it right there.
If you decided to limp in, Abdul Jalib recommends you limp reraise with this hand. I admit I would not have the guts to do this, but, what a bonanza you would have hit if you did this and carried out your threat of pocket aces or kings to the end.
Just to make you feel better, if you just limped in you probably wouldn't be able to take the heat that flop would have generated
As the betting and raising turned out I could have seen the showdown for 90 dollars. Too bad the hand didn't occur with me off the button in better position. (Who would have thought, all of a sudden, EIGHT limpers?) I think even in the blinds I would have played on and won the pot. I just felt under the gun it was a safe fold as I was trying to reduce my variance at the higher limits I'm attempting to enter.(Thus a marginal hand to play I thought I could safely avoid) I just did'nt have the feeling that a raise was going to pick up the blinds as unfortunately for me they were the loosest players at the table.
I suppose a case could be made for adding my hand to the "scared money don't win" category but I feel the hands I did play I played aggressively and I did leave the table a small winner. I closely monitered my opponents play and don't feel from what I observed that I didn't belong or was being outplayed left and right. They did have more experience than me at those limits though.
You have to go back to the books and rethink your position on TT. It can win many pots as overcards, part of a straight, a set of course, and representing a bigger hand. If you feel you have to flop a set to win with it, then you shouldn't even play it from late position.
Of course I don't feel you always need a set to win with TT. Obviously it depends on the nature of the game, your opponents, pre-flop activity, your position, the texture of the flop, your reads, etc.
How much do you pros think I'm giving up if I elect to fold TT UTG? And am I right in thinking it is worth less in a loose game (UTG) than in a tight game, when open raising has more of a chance to chase the overcards (to my pair) with bad kickers or connectors off their draws?
i agree it is tough from up front but i think a raise is best in this situation, but at least you made a real poker decision ;raise or fold;
however if you play hands you have folded with mind bets(and we all do), the problem is you will lose your mind, not your checks...good luck
... luckily, (or should we say skillfully :o) I did not lose my mind or go on tilt and I stuck to my game plan.
In the game that you describe, RAISE is your only choice. If you don't win it right there, you will be a favorite unless you get reraised. That will be a whit if bridge that you could cross later. Obviously it wouldn't have happened on this hand. Play aggressive or don't play.
I think everyone here is missing the point of limp-reraising.
You limp to encourage others to limp. That way the time you get 8 handed you are going to make a bundle when you make a set.
If you limp and then someone raises you need to re-raise because all the raising is going to limit the field. Tens are pretty good against a limited field.
Of course this is high variance play and not something that most people have the bankroll/cahones for.
Hillbilly, that's an awesome story. I once mucked AKs pre-flop, although the circumstances were a bit different...
But enough of all that. Honestly, that truly is a great tale. My only recommendation for the future would be to either a) raise, or b) call, depending on the texture of the game.
But that's really secondary. If every poster here was able to relate their problem hands with such candor this forum would be a lot more entertaining.
And don't worry, I'm not poking fun... I've got bonehead HE plays that definitely have yours 'outkicked'... :)
I think your fold preflop doesn't make sense and you shouldn't be intimidated into rushing a decision if you want to think. If you choose to raise the field may be as confused as you.
I think you should raise UTG w/this hand, in these conditions. YOu may take the pot then, and in any event you are a favorite against ALL hands except AA KK QQ JJ. If you are going to fold hands like this maybe you should rethink a few things.
I agree, raise or call. HFAP gives some advice about playing JJ in early position. It think this advice applies to TT as well for the most part. You can raise a little more liberally with JJ. Given the way you described the game you should have probably raised but the way the hand played out you should have called.
Local 20-40 game.
It's pretty early in the morning around 3:00 am and the table is tired and tight.
I'm dealt KK in the cutoff. Some loose guy in early position raises. Looser caller to my right calls 40. I decide to make it 60 to chase out the blinds. Surprisingly enough SB calls 60. SB is perhaps one of the best players on the table. Everyone else calls,
There are 4 people to see the flop.
Flop comes Q 9 3 rainbow. SB bets out (??) and all call to me. I'm wondering if he has AA. Anyways, I just call (bad move???). Turn comes a 6 - no backdoor flush. SB bets out again. All call and it comes to me and I just call (bad move again???). River comes an Ace. SB bets out once again. Now I am positive he has pocket aces, but to my surprise the original raiser calls so maybe the case Ace fell. Anyways, I look at my KK and muck the river.
Turns out SB had pocket nines. And the loose raiser had AK and was drawing dead.
Personally myself, I would never call 99 after someone makes it 3 bets preflop. Sure if you spike your set you are good, but what if someone else spikes a higher set.
But anyways, please rate my play?
Flop comes Q 9 3 rainbow. SB bets out (??) and all call to me. I'm wondering if he has AA. Anyways, I just call (bad move???).
Most likely.
Turn comes a 6 - no backdoor flush. SB bets out again. All call and it comes to me and I just call (bad move again???).
Absolutely! Especially since this card is a blank and you just called the flop. Why did you feel the need to slowplay and give everyone a cheap shot at you?
= Raider
I definitely raise the flop to find out where I am. When he re-raises you (he should), I would just call fearing a set or 2 pair. Then call the turn praying for a king or the board to pair. If neither happens then fold to a bet on the river.
Well, if the pre-flop call is a bad one it isn't bad by much. Although you're probably right in that in the long run it's a money losing play. But that's one of the nice things about playing late at night-- you can often catch someone, even a good player, at a point where they simply decide they're not going to muck their hand--- period. Of course, it didn't work out this time for you..
Anyway, I'd be pretty worried when a decent player fly bets this flop. If he had AQ, or KQs, you'd think he'd try and check raise the flop. When a genuinely solid player bets out here, you just have to worry about two pair or better. But nevertheless, I think you've got to pop it somewhere in here. I'd probably just call the flop, then raise if the turn comes clean. Note that by just calling the flop you can get away from your hand cheaply if a scare card comes and one of the players in between two bets. If I'm re-raised on the turn I'll probably muck, although that move is, of course, player dependant.
Fish,
You wrote: "Personally myself, I would never call 99 after someone makes it 3 bets preflop. Sure if you spike your set you are good, but what if someone else spikes a higher set."
Don't worry about set over set and worry more about overpairs. Even with an overpair probably out I would need only one more opponent to take the flop. But in your example your SB opponent was looking at a loose early raise and a cutoff reraise. This can mean many hands other than overpairs. So IMO his preflop call was fine.
Regards,
Rick
"But in your example your SB opponent was looking at a loose early raise and a cutoff reraise. This can mean many hands other than overpairs. So IMO his preflop call was fine."
If I think the first raise was loose, and the second raise is somebody that will 3 bet with AK or AQs, I will 4 bet with 99. I like taking medium pairs (88,99,TT) 3 way against loose raisers.
In a tight game, this is suicide as the second raiser will be screaming AA or KK.
I would raise the flop. Your getting three bets in the pot for your one, I would estimate that you only need to be ahead about a third of the time for the raise to be good. Which brings me on to the next point.
Why are you positive he has pocket aces? I see no reason to suppose he has any thing better than top pair yet, maybe not even that depending on how aggressive he is on the flop.
Same thing on the turn, I raise.
On the river you have pot odds 14 to 1. I know the ace is a major bummer, but do you really think you are winning this less than 7% of the time? Bear in mind that the ace provides bluffing opertunity for someone who knows you.
I think you are giving the SB too much respect, you said he was a good player not a Rock.
I will leave Abdul to answer your question about 99.
Suppose you raise and are either heads up or 3-way. Is it a leak to ALWAYS bet the flop?
I don't know if it's a leak to always bet the flop but you certainly can't do it automatically. If your opponents catch on to it will certainly cost you a lot of money.
I think the two main things to consider when bluffing at the flop are the type of opponents you are up against and the texture of the flop (as well as what you have). Here are some tips:
1. If the flop comes with a high card and no possible straight or flush draws (such as K73) and I was the preflop raiser, I would go ahead and bet a high percentage of the time no matter what I had.
2. If the flop has some two medium card combination, such as T8x or J9x or QTx or JTx or T9x (etc.), I would be less inclined to bluff at it in general.
3. If my opponents are prone to check-raising (or very good players in general) I would be more inclined to check behind them if I had nothing.
4. If you are first to act, against two opponents, the flop comes fairly ragged, you missed, but you think that there's a good chance neither of them hit, then go ahead and bet. But if you don't win it right there give it up.
5. You can bluff more often against one opponent than two. Very rarely bluff against three, and virtually never bluff against four or more.
6. If you have a little something (such as A3 on a Q53 flop) or you have some extra outs other than your overcards, then obviously you should be more inclined to bet in a shorthanded pot.
The thing is, many of your opponents at the hold'em table like to check to the preflop raiser even if they made something decent on the flop. So against players like that you would much rather take a free card instead of betting their hand for them.
Just keep in mind that you don't win your money in limit hold'em by bluffing. You win the great majority of your money in hold'em by playing tight and showing down quality hands.
sucker
Here's a hand that's really been bugging me, although I'm not sure why.
Two limpers in front of me, and I pop it somewhere in middle position with JJ. One cold caller behind me, both limpers call.
Flop: 9c 9h 5c. First limper checks, next limper bets, I raise, pre-flop cold caller mucks, first limper mucks, bettor re-raises. I call.
Turn: Ad. Bettor checks, I check
River: 7s. Bettor checks, I bet.
All comments appreciated.
I think betting the river is very player dependent and a strong matter of, would a worst hand call or check/raise you?
I really like the idea of check/raising a variety of hands for your opponent here including a 9,55, busted clubs or even 77 to put you to a tough call.
= Raider
I think you played it fine against a generic tough opponent. Much of the value of position is being able to make thin value bets on the river after your opponent checks. On the turn, your check is fine, as there you suspect that either your opponent had the goods with a 9 or was semibluffing, possibly with an ace high flush draw or two overcards including an ace. It's pretty obvious your opponent does not have KK or QQ. Bet the river, and make him pay you off with any pocket pair or possibly KQ.
Because you're posting it, I would guess you got snookered and your opponent had 77 for a 7's full that you let him river, and then he check-raised you.
-Abdul
GD,
I would be hestitant to bet for value here. One of the hands my opponent would likely have is the nut flush draw. It's fairly easy for him to not figure me for a nine,and unless he hold's a nine, how can he be that confident without a flush draw. I'd figure him for a weak Ace suited, or a hand with which he would be unlikey to call a bet. Even if he was froggy with an underpair, I would put him on something like 8's or 7's and I wouldn't want to bet for value given the likely makeup of his hand.
With a weak ace, he will check and call in case you have A-K or another big Ace.
You played the rest of the hand exactly as I would have, though.
I forgot to mention that if he does hold a nine you are almost certainly going to get raised on the river.
I think you played the hand o.k but I think that checking the river is the more prudent play.
vince.
Depending on your image and how you perceive your opponent, I think it would often be preferable to bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. If your opponent just calls and checks again on the river, you would then check behind him. The primary advantage of this play would be to deny your opponent a free card in case he was semibluffing.
I'd put him on a lower pair or a nut club draw way before any 9, although I'd be a little concerned about A9, and I would have done as you did.
Betting the turn makes it easy for you to lose 2 or 3 big bets when you're behind but hard to win a single bet when you're ahead, but checking the turn increases the chance he'll pay you off when you're ahead and limits your downside when you're behind, especially if you'll fold to a check-raise on the end.
That's pretty much the way I analyzed it, although I felt like kind of a weenie for not betting the turn.
We need a difinitive book on short-handed play. I think you should give it a shot. Put it on disk and sell it over the internet. I'll be the first to buy it! Carson did it and so can you.
Abdul--How is Tyson doing-has he moved up to the 80 game?
I totally second that...
I want the second copy...
ThePrince
We had a late breakfast this morning so I will let him answer the question on the book now he is getting pressure from all of us.
I'll buy !
Two players limp to you in the cutoff. You have 88. Should you limp or raise, and why?
Raise, and try to get rid of the blinds. If your image is good and an A or K hit the flop bet sometimes it's enough to win right there. But sometimes it's a statistical cleansing, w
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Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 12:20 p.m.
Posted by: Fmonti (fmontisant@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 3:44 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 4:09 p.m.
Posted by: Fmonti (fmontisant@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 7:05 p.m.
Posted by: dknkf (sada@dsafa.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: Jones (kajohnson@angelfire.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 10:04 p.m.
Posted by: Raider
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:31 p.m.
Posted by: Raider
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 10:52 p.m.
Posted by: Clint
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: Boris
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 5:14 p.m.
Posted by: Clint
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Clint
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Fmonti (fmontisant@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 7:08 p.m.
Posted by: Clint
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: Tony G (tonyg49@idt.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 1:55 p.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 3:04 p.m.
Posted by: John M (oonwayvos@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 8:55 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: suspicious
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:50 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 5:51 a.m.
Posted by: The Fish (larryownsyou@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Raider
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 10:46 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:24 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:14 a.m.
Posted by: Joe Medwick
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Learner
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 10:36 p.m.
Posted by: sucker
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:53 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Raider
Posted on: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 11:49 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 12:09 a.m.
Posted by: G. Ed Conly (econly@poweruser.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:08 a.m.
Posted by: G. Ed Conly (econly@poweruser.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:11 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 11:50 a.m.
Posted by: MJS (mjs_90201@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (cralger@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 4:00 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: Lurker from Turning Stone
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 1:45 a.m.
Posted by: Lurker from TS
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: ThePrince (nicfradet@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 10:18 a.m.
Posted by: hosh (hosh115@AOL.COM)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: Clint
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 2:52 p.m.
Posted by: Team 3Yr.
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 December 2000, at 10:27 a.m.