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Hello all, this one has been bothering me so I'd like to see what you would have done.
10/20 game has just started, no special reads yet, but most considered as solid players. 4 limp in to Cutoff who raises to 20. Button folds, SB calls. I'm in the BB with 99. 7 players, raise or call ? I raised, all call. Flop comes 357 with two spades. I bet, all call to CU (unknown player) who raises. All call. I had been trying to represent a big pair and took his raise to mean he also had an overpair. Turn brings 2d. I check, should I have bet into unknown again ? All check ! Now I put him on A,big looking for an out. River is 8s, SB checks I bet, thinking I can now represent the flush and value bet my pair as well. All fold to cutoff who raises. SB folds, I fold and concede this big pot, I'm now thinking his flop raise was a free card play to the flush, I was hoping it was a play to overcards. SB later told me she had KK although I didn't ask, nor did she ask what I had.
I'm wondering if I should have river called for the sake of "keeping him honest" with this pot size.
I think either raising or calling preflop is fine. I would be less inclined to raise if I thought my raise wouldn't get it heads up.
On the flop I would definitely 3 bet and again try to thin the field.
I think you should bet the turn, you don't want to give a free card to all these players when you may have the best hand.
I have been told by many a player that a certain poker author and web site host is a tight and unimaginative poker player. In fact many have referred to him as the "Supreme Vegas rock" going as far as saying that if the Rock of Gibralter "Were to tumble and Fall" they could put Mason Malmuth in it's place and the world wouldn't notice any difference.
Last night, that being Friday 29 December, I watched the rock play the following 30-60 Holdem hand. Mason was in the Big Blind. All folded to the button who raised. The button was in my opinion a lunatic or pretty close. A lunatic is someone that will make inappropriate bets and raises but is not necessarily an idiot. An idiot is someone that doesn't have a clue and will bet or call with any two cards regardless of the situation.
Let me digress for a moment. I really am not in favor of labeling my opponents with such derogatory terms as idiot and lunatic. I usually only make these judgements when I am steaming from being beaten by them so badly and so often. Well it just goes to show that even I am almost human. I do it here only with poetic license for emphasis.
So the button raises and the SB folds and Mason is holding the 5s,6s. Mason called. The flop: Td,4h,5d. Mason bet and was quickly raised. Mason called. The turn was the 4d. The board now showed Td,4h,5d,4d. Mason bet. The button called. The river was the 6d. With a board of Td,4h,5d,4d,6d, Mason bet. His opponent immediately displayed a painful feeling of disgust and before the chips settled in the pot, turned his two non diamond Queens up as he flung them to the dealer and the muck. Mason raked in the pot.
Now I ask you, is that anyway for the "Rock of Vegas" to behave?
Vince
I think it was Mason's buddy Abdul who coined the term Rock Equity. Mason cashed in on it here.
This topic came up a week ago and I'm still unsure how much I like this situation but here's a hand from today. Aggressive and aware player raises from early position. I hold 99 in the cut off seat. Pump or dump, no middle ground here. I pump. He caps it.
Head's up flop comes Q J 9 rainbow.
I'm wearing headphones and didn't hear/see him bet the flop blind so I sit there like a dummy for 15 seconds until the dealer prods me to act. I raise hoping for big action. No luck, he calls. That's a scarry flop for all concerned.
Turn comes a 7, suit not noted.
He checks and calls my bet. I don't think a smart player would be in the hand with AK at this point but it's impossible to be sure. I also don't think he's on a bigger set, too risky to flat call. That leaves AA, KK, TT, AQ and maybe something else. My gut sez AA or KK.
River is a K, no flush possible.
He checks. Your move.
-Fred-
Pre-flop - probably a fold. But you did the second - best thing...
river - well, the answer is in the board - you bet. If he raises, you should strongly consider folding. How could he check 3 kings? Aren't you likely to ckeck here? If you think he thinks you have aces, how could he go for a check-raise? Only a looney could bet aces here. So he doesn't have kings and think you have aces. Which means he probably has the aces. Will he check -raise with AK? I doubt it very much.
The point is, he can't reasonably hope to get in a check-raise because of the board, and if he does check-raise, you can probably fold.
Of course, this is dangerous, and you have to know if your opponent is very tricky. but if his raise is a bluff, why would he not bet out to bluff when this straight card hits?
Good luck.
Dan Z.
The stud player and hold 'em critic
!0/20 Holdem, play is fairly loose with a lot of limpers, but my own image is probably weak-tight. Two limpers, one early position and the other just to my right. I hold AKo and raise with both calling. Flop comes A,9, 2 rainbow. Both check to me and I decide to check because of my tight image and because the flop does not look like it could have hit anyone very hard. Turn is a J of diamonds putting two diamonds on the board. Early postition bets, middle position calls and I raise. Both call. River is the 4 of hearts. Both check and I bet with one caller. Caller shows QJo and the other player coment that I got lucky since he had 8Td. .
Even though things worked out perfectly in this instance because I turned a $55 profit into a $155 profit, did I error in not betting the flop? Both players said they would have dropped had I bet the flop and that I got real lucky I was not drawn out on. In retrospect, they did develop a lot of outs against me (5 and 14 respectively) and I really had no assurance that I would be able to increase the pot that much by giving them a free card. Comments please.
The QJ really only has 2 outs as a Q on the river gives your other opponent a straight. This means that collectively your opponents have only 16 outs.
It seems to me that if you 'knew' what turn card was coming AND what your opponents had, then a slow play would be slightly correct. Of the 42 unknown cards, 16 beat you on the river. So if you only call on the river (when beat), you will loss $80 or on average (16/42)* 80 = 30.48. On the other hand, with 26 river cards you win $155. (26/42)*155=95.95. Since 95.95-30.48 = 65.47 is greater than the $55 you would have won by betting the flop, the slow play will in the long run make money.
Of course, my hypotheses are not really plausible, but the computation does indicate that a slow play needs more consideration than some of respondents believe.
I open for a raise in middle position with KsQs. All fold to the SB who makes it 3 bets. The BB folds and I call. $140 in the pot and 2 players.
Flop is Kxx, 1 spade. SB bets, I raise, SB 3 bets, I call.
Turn is x, no spade. SB bets and I fold.
In general against typical opponents in a $20-$40 game, your flop play and subsequent fold on the turn is correct. The small blind will usually have AA,KK, or AK in this betting sequence.
Open raising from middle position with King-Queen even suited is problematic. The hand does not play well in heads-up or shorthanded situations when you get called since you are a dog to an Ace. Furthermore, it is not clear that you want to drive out players with this hand when you are suited. I think your pre-flop raise is okay but limping in may not be too far wrong here. On the other hand, with Ace-Jack suited or unsuited I would raise every time.
Jim,
Omce again, would this be your game plan if you were still in that 20/40 we were playing on Friday?
Regards,
Rick
Against the particular line up of characters I was playing with at Hollywood Park there is no way I would back off this hand. I would simply hang in there against many of the players I was playing against. But this game is unusual and unlike a typical $20-$40 game at the Mirage or at Tunica or at Lake Charles. In fact, I am convinced that the players in Los Angeles play a style of hold'em that is unlike any other mid- level game in the country.
Jim,
Maybe there is a book in that. How does "Middle Limit La-La Holdem" Sound?
Rick
(n/t)
When a generic player three bets in Los Angeles in the small blind against one mid position raiser, his range of probable hands is 88 to AA and AK AQ.
Therefore, I believe there is a lot to be said for calling the flop, calling the turn, and calling the river. If fact, don't be surprised if he slows down on the river and you can value bet your decent king.
The problem with your flop raise is that it really doesn't provide you with reliable information when head. In La-La-Land, my opponents don't need top pair to three-bet me and then lead out on the turn.
Regards,
Rick
Not that results matter, but the SB showed his AKs.
...hand is the preflop action.
Is the early raiser going to cap the flop with AK,AQ or JJ or TT. Not likely but possible. Would he cap with QQ? Maybe
He would go ahead and cap with AA or KK though most likely, now after all his action during the hand which hand can we put him on? I think his action screams out KK.
He bets out into a co-ordinated board and meets with resistance and does not re-raise. Does this mean he is scared of AA? It seems so to me it does. Or he could be scared Fred has QQ or JJ as these holding are more likely in Fred's hand than the preflop capper IMO
Then he checks the flop and does not raise the bet. I doubt he thinks Fred was semi-bluffing for a free card to a straight draw.
When the K comes on the river I think he may be going for the checkraise because I think he played his hand more like he had KK and not AA.
So mathematics aside for a second, to me the pot is big enough and I vote to just check it down here and see who won.
But I don't think it necessarily WRONG to bet out on the river I think it would not necessarily be worth the risk to me and my sometimes less than robust bankroll :o)
I'm going to be a little rough here but I think it's important so please take it in the spirit of someone who is trying to help you make more money.
Hillbilly writes:
>>So mathematics aside for a second, to me the pot is big enough and I vote to just check it down here and see who won. <<
Wrong! Awful! This is terrible and you should abandon this kind of thinking ASAP. Jim is right in what he states. If your going to make money playing hold'em you're going to have to play well on the river. The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky has a great material about correct play when all the cards are out. If you haven't read the material and if you have you need to read it again.
BTW when someone checks a scary board on the river they are a lot more likely to call a bet than check raise in this situation IMO.
>>So mathematics aside for a second, to me the pot is big enough and I vote to just check it down here and see who won. <<
This sentence of mine was taken a little out of context, of course I am going to try to maximize my good hands every time. I actually felt in this case the way the hand went down that the opponent had KK and not AA and Fred was beaten. So I was trying to save 2 bets to the checkraise with the slim chance I missed a bet.
Of course I was wrong, the opponent did have AA.
Please don't think I play a hand and then say "Oh that's enough money" and then show down the nuts while five guys are waiting to call or raise :o)
Thanks for your advice though I will re-read said passages in TOP pronto.
I open raise from middle position with AKo. The next player, who has just joined the table and is new to me, raises to 45. All fold to me and I call. Two players, $115 in pot.
The flop comes 8 high rags. I check raise. I had just read Abdul's post that said basically to play AK on the flop as though they were aces until someone slows you down. What do people think of the check raise? What is the correct play on the flop?
Anyway, much to my dissapointment, my opponent 3 bets. I am confident that he has an overpair. I call, planning to fold on the turn if I don't improve. Two players, $205 in pot.
The turn is a K. I bet and he calls. Two players, $265 in pot.
The river blanks. I bet and he calls. His pair of tens find a home in the muck.
(I did not wait to post the results because I think that from the action it is pretty obvious that he had QQ-99)
Anon,
I like your style here with one caveat. I would almost always call the turn even if I missed. Forget the math for tonight, there just has to be enough combined probability that you either have outs to his overpair or he is trying to blow you out with a weaker ace with position. I also think he will often check down the river with his lower overpairs so it won't always cost you two big bets to keep him honest.
I also like the bet on the turn rather than attempting the check raise. I think the check raise will often fail since they play you for ace king in this spot. Despite this, most opponents just won't lay down the medium overpair even though they believe the king probably hit you.
Regards,
Rick
Jim,
Would you play the same way if you were still in that 20/40 we were in Friday Night?
Regards,
Rick
no text
Not that the result matters, but the SB elected to show off his AKs.
he had TT, like i said before. that was the result of another hand. sorry.
2 players limp and I call from the SB w/ KhTc. BB checks. 4 players, $40 in pot.
Flop is K84, all clubs. I bet. BB folds. EP limper raises, LP limper folds, and I call. 2 players, $80 in pot.
Turn is Qc. I check call. 2 players, $120 in pot.
River is 6d. Checked around.
Opponent had KsJs, so my club flush won the day.
I invite all of the players who post, or simply read here to join me in a New Year's Resolution:
"I will not whine anymore!" If someone plays bad and wins against me, that's o.k. That's what I want them to do! If they played correctly, then I made a mistake and I will learn from it!
"I will not blame dealers or others for my losses." The dealer has nothing to do with it...ever! They insure that the game I'm in is being run fair and honest. The bad players are what feed my bankroll. I want them in my game. I can not lose if I play well. Today maybe, but never in the long run.
"I will not ask for deck changes or new setups". This only slows down the games and cuts into my profit. All decks have the same 52 cards in them... nothing changes!
"I will tip all competent dealers for every hand I win". For most, this is their sole source of income. I win consistantly thanks in part to their hard work. They deserve my praise as well. If they are incompetant, I will tell the management, not berate them in front of others!
"I will not allow abusive players to ruin my game". If a player abuses a dealer, I will speak up. If a player abuses another player, I will try to pull that player aside and make him realize that a bad player is good for the game, don't send them off by abusing them. I will make it a point to make this game better for all.
"I will tell no more bad beat stories". I will greet all my fellow players with questions about their lives. After all, life is more important than poker. (But poker is a close 2nd) We've all seen it ALL before... no need to beat a dead horse!
"I will not talk about the play of a hand with anyone at the table". Why should I help educate my opponents?
"I will become that ONE player we all enjoy playing with". We all know that person. He/she is always pleasant. Fun to be around. Never has a bad thing to say about anybody.
Please join me in making this a part of your game. For that matter... make it a part of your everyday life! Happy New Year to all and Keep Playing Hard!
.
Amen!
SPM,...defender of the right of any player, to play any two cards, form any position...
My game plan would be to raise pre-flop with slick as you did. When re-raised, I figure I am beat and I am now chasing which is okay given the pot odds and the fact that I get to see 3 cards. When the flop misses me completely giving me no pair, no straight or flush draw, and reducing me to playing over cards my plan is to check and call on the flop. I will fold on the turn if a blank comes and it gets bet after I check. Now obviously if your opponent knows exactly how you play in these situations he can exploit this but they usually don't. Even if he was 3 betting with any pair, to continue playing here is very marginal. There are 8.5 bets in the pot and it costs you 1 bet to take off a card. Your 6 outer is about a 7:1 shot so you are in a marginal situation here since you will not win 100% of the time even when you hit. There will also be times when you split the pot with another AK. That is why I am not interested in dumping a lot of money on the flop since I am just ruining my pot odds by paying multiple bets to take a card off.
Jim,
Would this be your game plan if you were still in that 20/40 we were playing on Friday?
Regards,
Rick
I still would not check-raise on the flop since I think I would be wasting money against an over pair who will call regardless. Many of the $20-$40 players at Hollywood Park will not back off if they think they have any chance of winning. They will simply check and call and make you show them a better hand. Now suppose a blank comes on the turn? Again, there is no point in me betting out here since they will not fold. If I check, they will probably bet. Now at this point there would be $175 in the pot assuming I had just check-called the flop bet. It costs me $30 to play my 6 outer. The odds are 40:6 against me and I will not win 100% of the time when I hit. I think folding is right at this point but it is close.
Now obviously if your opponent knows exactly how you play in these situations he can exploit this but they usually don't.
I would have played the AKo as you decribe, can you give me some examples of your statement above.
SPM,...thanks...
Since you and I agree on how we would play slick in this situation, I will refer to this as "our" strategy. Our strategy could be exploited by an astute opponent if he had another AK or AQ suited or even AJ suited. All he has to do is to follow through with a bet on the turn after we check to get us to fold. However, it takes a lot of balls to play this way and most opponents will simply check it down on the expensive street and hope to either improve or get a cheap showdown.
Hero puts name on the 15/30 holdem board but while waiting posts a cutoff seat blind in a six handed must move 20/40 holdem game in a Los Angeles card barn (the fact that it is in Los Angeles is relevant, as Jim Brier is now sure to attest).
There is one “unknown but typical looking Los Angeles player” limper to Hero's right and Hero looks down at black pocket tens. Hero raises, both blinds fold, and limper reraises! Hero calls.
The flop comes Ad 7c 2d. Limper-Reraiser bets and Hero calls. Now some would say pump it or dump it here but that isn't the point of the post. Let's pretend Hero's call is arguably correct.
The turn comes a non-diamond blank. Limper-Reraiser checks! What is Hero's play?
Results later tonight if I am not too drunk (don't worry, I'm staying in, I hate going out on New Year's Eve).
Regards,
Rick
PS: Is it true that Bellagio charges $800 on New Year's Eve if you don't have any juice?
Bet, so as to not give a free card that could beat hero, or even to get a better hand to fold, given the Ace on the board. Then probably check the river. I have to admit, though, limper's play has me guessing. I'd probably have to give it up if he check-raised me on the turn.
Question: What is a "typical looking Los Angeles player"? Tan shoes, pink shoelaces, a polka dot vest, and man, oh man, a movie script and sun glasses hanging out of his back pocket?
Happy New Year!
Andy,
Typical looking Los Angeles player (unless otherwise known) can play almost any cards from any position any damn way they want.
Regards,
Rick
I am only an occasional player; I play in L.A. But I have never seen a player in 20-40 call directly in front of a late position poster and then re-raise when the poster raised everyone else out of the pot.
Having cheated, and looked at the results down below, let's think about our non-hero's play. Were it I playing, I would have either raised with K-9s. Had I just called, though, I would not have re-raised when poster/hero raised.
From there, ignoring the fact that non-hero re-raised pre-flop, and I know this is a big thing to ignore, ( and I hope Abdul doesn't hyphen-this, hyphen that -over-criticize me), non-hero's play doesn't seem terribly Los Angeles-like. He check-raises the flop containing an Ace and 2 diamonds hoping to win the pot right there. When hero calls, he then checks the turn, assuming hero has an Ace. And in fact, the confusing way he had played the hand (and now not ignoring the pre-flop re-raise)caused hero to check the turn and give non-hero a free card.
OK, so our non-hero 3-bet the pot out of position with K-9s. Nothing stranger than this happens in Vegas?
At the risk of uttering a heresy, I must say that the times I have played in Las Vegas (at 15-30 and 20-40 at the Mirage), I have found the games much easier, with much poorer players, than L.A. I would assume this has to do with the fact that I am in Vegas at vacation times, during conventions on Saturday night, etc., whereas I play in L.A. mostly mid-week. And I am comparing very few hours of play in Vegas (perhaps 200 hours in total).
83 degrees today. Our brains get a little fried in the heat.
It has been my experience that when a player limp re-raises they typically have a hand like AA or KK. If not these two hands, then they will have at least QQ or AK or AQ suited. When the flop comes Ace-high and the limp re-raiser bets it is safe to assume that our hero is looking at 2 outs. I would have folded since there are too many hands that an Ace-high board touches a limp re-raiser. Now having decided to call the flop bet, what should be done when the third Diamond appears on the turn? It looks to me like the limp re-raiser is afraid of a possible Diamond flush despite having only one opponent who raised pre-flop. Will he fold if our hero bets? Possibly if he has KK or QQ since he loses to an Ace as well as to Diamonds. The problem is that if he has the King of Diamonds or the Queen of Diamonds he will not fold when we bet. The other problem is that the Ten of Diamonds may not be an out. We have to decide if we are going to try and bet our way to victory which means betting both here and on the river if called then checked to. Frankly, I don't know what I would do. I think at the table I would simply bet since there is $190 in the pot and it costs me $40 and he might just fold.
Jim,
I'm not sure how much it changes your analysis but I wrote above: “The turn comes a non-diamond blank.” Also remember this was in you know what card barn in you know what city.
Regards,
Rick
PS: Happy New Year! I hope you have enjoyed your stay in Los Angeles and it was a pleasure getting together last week.
If the turn is a non-Diamond blank then I would bet the turn since it looks like the limp re-raiser is now denying an Ace and I can represent one perhaps getting him to fold.
I bet the turn if raised fold, if called i check the river and expect to be shown KK,QQ.
The flop call often looks scarier than a raise. This may have bought hero a free card. Opt to take it most of the time. If limp reraiser has an under pair to TT then he has two outs. Six outs if two overcards, which is the main danger of checking through. Check most of the time, fold to a bet on the river if K or Q comes if not, call. Its ok to be a weenie sometimes.
Limp reraiser types are not likely folders of better hands here on the turn. This hand looks like KK, QQ, JJ, 99, 88, or a check raise trap.
By the way, Jim Brier posted "Frankly I do not know what to do." What did you guys do to him?
Regards, R.
Initially, I felt bad admitting in my first post I was a little confused by limper's play, but if Jim Brier can say he's not sure what to do, I feel less badly. When unsure, can a a bet behind a check be very wrong?
backdoor,
”The flop call often looks scarier than a raise. This may have bought hero a free card.”
In a sense I agree with this. But it helps if Hero had been playing with the Limp-Reraiser a bit more and had noted Hero's normal high aggression level.
”Limp reraiser types are not likely folders of better hands here on the turn. This hand looks like KK, QQ, JJ, 99, 88, or a check raise trap.”
You are possibly right on this one. But then look at my results post to see what the Limp-Reraiser had!
”By the way, Jim Brier posted "Frankly I do not know what to do." What did you guys do to him?”
Jim didn't play with Hero but I played in his 20/40 holdem game on Friday. It was quite a bizarre game but Jim made great adjustments and knocked them dead. I did OK too but most was due to pounding them with big pairs (most dealt to me in the small blind) that held up. There was one hand I won that I am hoping Jim might post that illustrates Los Angeles holdem at its finest.
Regards,
Rick
(n/t)
x
"What is Hero's play? "
I think she should stop listening to Rick Nebiolo. Hero should Bet unless she likes checking then check but she should definitely not say "raise" because the limper checked and you can't raise a checker but that just may give the limper the information that he needs to maybe reraise or call if she bets but that won't matter much if she says raise and then doesn't put any money in the pot because then he wouldn't be able to rerasie a fake raise or even call if his hand warranted it or he thought Hero was bluffing which I'm sure he doesn't realize being from California and all. I think Sklansky would explain it like this if the EV > when she says raise (SR) then she should say raise unles the EV is better when she Checks and bets the river (CBR) unless the EV is a lot more when she bets (LMB) So the equatetion if EV => SR unless CBR > LMB then if EV <=> LMB Hero should fold (F).
God I'm smart. Tom Weidemann ain't got nuttin on this old Italian.
Vince
Vince,
Hero has stopped listening to me ever since Hero's hourly average zoomed pass mine. That's why I ask you guys for help.
Happy New Year!,
Rick
"Hero stopped listening to me since Hero's hourly wage zoomed passed mine".
Hero is making a HUGE mistake. You have played many thousands of hours at this game and have an impressive winning record. If Hero is the person I think it is, then Hero has insufficient hours for a computed hourly earn to have much statistical significance. I know a lot of players who had big hourly earns over a few hundred hours of $20-$40 and some over a thousand hours. They were in for rude awakening downstream. A friend of mine was averaging over $40 per hour at $20-$40 for the first 1000 hours he played. But at 2000 hours of play his earn is only about $24 per hour.
Jim,
Thanks. This and Tom Haley's recent chart will be awaiting Hero when Hero comes by in a couple days.
Regards,
Rick
Rick:
Hopefully, the Hero will kindly reward you for all your masterly lessons. After all, no tuition comes free; some folks charge @250.00/hr.
Ivan,
Just having a Hero like mine is reward enough :-).
Rick
I wrote above: ”Results later tonight if I am not too drunk (don't worry, I'm staying in, I hate going out on New Year's Eve).”
Well I did get too drunk and was punished by having to go to work early this morning. Sorry about the late results.
I thought hero clearly should have bet the turn and probably fold if checkraised. But our Hero checks the turn. The river comes a baby diamond. The Limp-Reraiser bets and Hero calls. Limp-Reraiser shows a Kd 9d for a flush.
Now that is Los Angeles poker!
Regards,
Rick
Am I just wasting money?
I just sat at the table and my first 2 hands (BB, SB) were Ad4s (BB), which I flopped 2 pair and was beaten by a runner runner flush, and red Aces (SB) which held up. I don't really know the people at this table but I've seen them around.
I got semi-flamed by this hand. Full table and I am in the cutoff (CO).
It is open raised UTG. There are 4 callers behind him. The guy on my right folds and I see 6h7h. I thought my implied odds were pretty good with this hand since so many people called. I called. Only the BB called after me. $290, 7 handed.
How many of you would make this call given the situation? I know that if it were only the UTG player I would not have made this call, but since so many others called after him I gave it a gamble. Is this senseless to anyone?
Flop: 6d Qs 7c
Turn: 2d
River: 5c
I win the showdown headup but not with the UTG raiser! It was the 3rd or 4th caller who had QTo and check-raised me on the flop then I banged him on the turn.
Basically, is this a warped logic on my part? I'm not a fully mathematical player, so I cannot quickly calculate the odds as some might. Anyway, thanks and Happy New Year.
~stephen
doh
I don't see why your post doesn't belong right here.
I'm guessing the utg raiser had AK.
I really don't have a problem with your call. It's a gamble like you say but you had plenty of customers, all of which probably had high cards and thus more of a chance for your babies on the flop. And with your late position a re-raise was unlikely but not the end of the world if it came. If you miss then dump your hand, if you hit then no one expects you have that trash and you win a nice pot and confuse your opponents with your "loose play", and they will probably read you wrong when you switch back to more optimum play. Of course you can't get carried away with these plays
I think you had more of a right to be in the pot than the fellow with QTo
With 5 people already in for two bets, your cold-call on the cutoff seat with Seven-Six suited cannot be too far wrong. You figure that one of the blinds will probably play so you are getting the multi-handed action this speculative drawing hand requires except that it is costing you two bets instead of one. Since it is unlikely that the pot will get re-raised, I think your call is marginal but okay.
You didn't describe the action once the flop came but I hope you played your two pair very aggressively by betting and raising at every opportunity.
As prescribed by Jim, I did exactly that. It was bet in front, raised and I re-raised. It was check called to me until the river which by then was headsup.
~stephen
I like your call. The implied odds with so many players in the pot make this hand more than worthwhile, and it is not likely dominated. Don't listen to all the whining losers at your table.
Buckshot-B,
IMO, your pre-flop call is fine. Take away one cold caller and it is borderline.
Regards,
Rick
Since Rick thinks it's OK to call with 82s, maybe I should rethink my answer.
;o)
Again the term it depends becomes the operative word in analyzing a poker hand. Others have said that since you have a number of callers in front of you a call is fine. I agree. But it's not our money or mind you are playing with, it's yours. Playing as you did will result in very large swings, trust me I know. If you can handle the swings then by all means make these types of calls because if you play well post flop they can be very profitable. But if you don't play well post flop they can be very costly. So even though you are not making a probability mistake preflop you may be making a playing or strategic mistake if you are not prepared for what lies ahead after the flop. This hand is not an "odds issue" per se, it is more a skill level issue. Maybe even a self-discipline issue.
Vince
Hey Vince,
Can you define "playing well after the flop"? I mean suppose the flop came 267 rainbow and the BB had pocket 2's. The BB just calls your flop bet and then raises you on the turn and bets out on the river. What do you do? How do you play well after the flop? I would think you just lose a bunch of money - right? Or is there a way to decipher what's happening and lose less with a good lay-down?
Thanks,
-Michael
Generically, playing well after the flop is relative. Usually, when I say "You can play more hands if you play well after the flop," I usually mean "If your opponents play poorly and if you play competently." Although it could also mean "Your opponents are average and you're great," it's much more common to find the former than the latter.
In the example you gave, you could justify a fold, call or re-raise on the turn depending on how the BB plays, but if your opponent is going to slowplay a set in a large pot with a connected board, you should do very well because you'll get lots of free cards on the turn when you need them. Knowing things like when to bet the flop with a draw and take a free card on the turn are examples of "playing well after the flop."
In the example in this specific hand, the guy cold calling a raise with QTo, check-raising a Q high flop with top pair/weak kicker, leading on the turn, paying off a raise, and check-calling the river, played horribly, and your mere competence with 76s should allow you the right to say you "play well after the flop" against this field.
-Sean
I raise UTG w/ AsKc. MP player and BB call. $55, 3 players.
Flop is 4d 6c 5c. BB bets, I raise, MP folds and BB calls.
Turn is Kh. BB checks calls.
River is 4s. BB check calls.
It turns out that the BB had A6. Knowing this, I would have of course folded on the flop. I think my raise was questionable, but I made it because I thought that such a board made a lot of draws for the BB to bet as well as made hands. And if the BB was betting a pair, I thought that I would probably (though I of course didn't) have 6 outs. What should I have done on the flop?
.
There is $115 in the pot at the time you make your flop decision. There is a two flush on board plus three cards all in a straight zone. You are being bet into despite having raised pre-flop. You have 6 outs at best and you could be drawing dead. Your opponents know this flop has not helped you. Raising is a bad idea. The decision is between calling and folding. You are getting 7:1 on your call and the odds against making a pair are 41:6 so it is close. You have a backdoor Club flush draw. I would call but folding cannot be too far wrong considering that your outs are only to a pair.
I agree with your calculations regarding the number of outs but it assumes that you need to improve to win. In this situation I would not automatically assume that I would need to improve to win. Most opponents would bet a flush draw here. Many others would simply bet overcards knowing that the flop did not help the pre-flop raiser. As is so often the case, knowledge of your opponent's style is so important.
I agree that knowing your opponent is critical. It has been my experience that most players will not bet drawing hands into a pre-flop raiser since they are worried about getting raised and having to pay extra money to pursue their draw. Had the pot not been raised pre-flop then many opponents typically bet draws since they may win the pot outright and have outs if they are called.
I think a raise is not too bad. It limits the field and you may buy a free card with your raise. If your opponent bets into you again on the turn when you got no help, then it can be a safe fold. If your opponent checks, then you may have a good enough hand to bet (opponent is on flush/straight draw). Otherwise, check to the river.
Fistdantilus
I like your raise. It gives you 2 free cards to make your hand, if it isn't already the best. If you had not raised, and the K had not hit on the turn, your opponent would have bet again.
As it worked out, you made an extra SB with your play.
If you want to see the entire hand and think a raise will buy a free one thats a good play. You should be fairly sure of your outs and the agressiveness of the other players because you could get a reraise.
My worthless opinion
Leo, utg, raised. Leo is a certified nutbag, but he plays a pretty mean game of poker. All folded to me, I had TT. I would have folded if it was only 99--NOT--but I reraised instead. The flop was 78T.
Leo checked, and I bet. The turn was a K. Leo checked, I bet, he raised. I reraised and he called. The river was a J, and Leo bet out. I just called this time. Leo won with 99.
I was a little steamed by the loss at the time, but the more I think about it, I like Leo's play. When he checkraised on the K, I surely would have folded QQ, JJ, or less. And I probably would have only called if the K gave me a pair. Even if I remain in the hand, he still has the straight draw to fall back on.
Also, his play was so deceptive, I never put him on 99. There's a lot to be said for confusing your opponent. I don't really have a point here, I just thought I'd pass along a good play.
Oh yeah, under another thread, there is talk about Mason playing tight. I'm too lazy to find it and post this here, so here's my opinion: I've played with him a few times, and tight never entered my mind as a description of his play. Unpredictable would be more like it. You never know what he might show you. What really bugs me is everyone shows him so much respect, he hardly ever has to show down a hand. Did I ever tell you about the time he beat my Aces with A4? He made a gutshot wheel on the river. And no, he didn't flop a pair. But I digress, put the pizza in the fridge and turn out the lights when you leave.
all you describe is a classic turn checkraise semibluff. it is a good play, but it is so so common nowadays that it's hardly worth mentioning.
playing against mason is a mistake for virtually anyone. why play against someone who is so unlikely to gamble and make a mistake? im sure that when he made the wheel on the river he had more than sufficient odds to go for the gutshot.. that anyone would play against him when they know who he is is funny.
In Mason's own book he advocates that playing against an expert is not necessarily a mistake. it depends on how good the game is overall. The presence of one or more extremely bad players might make the game worth playing in anyway. I would play against Mason, David, and Roy all at the same time if there were several extremely bad players in the game.
Pre-flop I like your 3 bet with pocket Tens against a looney tune who could be raising on garbage. You want to isolate him with you having the better hand and the better position. His check-raise on the expensive street would be more effective coming from a solid player but since he is a proven looney tune it means nothing and you have to stay with him. You see his own looseness destroys his credibility when playing against you and therefore it makes a semi-bluff less likely to be successful.
I have also played against Mason in the Bellagio $30-$60 game. Mason plays fewer hands than most of his opponents. Roy Cooke also plays fewer hands than most of his opponents. Virtually every successful player I have seen plays fewer hands than most of their opponents.
You're right, Leo made a good play but only if he is against someone, such as you, who can lay a hand down. This would not ba a good play against someone who will automatically call with jacks or queens. (Note that a 9 may also be an out for him.)
"-but I reraised instead."
Don't you mean you made it 3 Bet's? Now why doesn't that surprise me, Brett errr..I mean 3 bet.
Vince
BTW - Where in the heck did you get that label, 3 Bet, any way?
speaking of leo (who is a a looney toons only because he only speaks non sequiturs in broken english and behaves strangley at times (but hey, who hasn't?) ), the following hand occured:
kill pot, 30/60, im posting the kill in late position.
leo raises in early position, all fold to me with Ad 8d. i call.
flop something like 2x 8x Td, giving me pair of eights with back door nut flush.
he bets into me and i raise (i put him on AK as per brett's rule) he calls.
turn Jd. leo checkraises me and of course i call with a pair/overcard and nut four flush draw. im starting to think he's not on AK.
river the Kd.
2x 8x Td Jd Kd.
leo bets, i raise, he 3 bets, i four bet, he five bets, i six bet, he calls.
he had KK.
brad
I probably would have checkraised the river with his hand because I think you'd bet the river in this spot, but I do like his play on the turn. I make plays like this in stud quite often because if you checkraise they sometimes fold right there if they don't have much or they fold if you catch a scare card on the next street. I especially like doing this if the scare cards won't really help my hand but some other cards that don't look scary would help my hand. The best example is on 4th street in stud with 2 suited cards showing, raising the probable big pair. Then you have control of the hand.
As I don't play holdem as often anymore I don't think about some things in this game as much as I used to.
Also, I like that you are able to show praise for a good play made on you, even though as it turned out it was a "bad beat". I like to look at hands from the perspective of my opponent and say, "wow, that was a good play he made on me" instead of "that $#*@ing bastard put a bad beat on me, what an awful player he is". There's just a lot more to learn in poker if you are humble and willing to admit that you get outplayed sometimes.
I need your help on this hand.
Unknown player raises in early position -- I can tell he is loose but I am not sure how aggressive yet.
All fold to me in the BB -- I have 7d8d. I call.
Flop is: 9c10h2s
I check, he checks.
Turn is: 4h
I bet, he raises, I call.
River is: Jh.
I check, he bets, I raise, he reraises, I cap (online).
He turns over Ah2h and I lose. Comments welcome.
The action on the first 2 streets led me to believe he had a set. Oops.
...preflop since you are more than likely way behind with 87s and no customers to pay you off if you hit a nice flop. I would let my blind go here.
Having called I probably would have bet my open-ender on the flop and tried to win the pot right there, but I doubt your opponent would have dropped anyways with bottom pair top kicker backdoor nut flush draw.
Of course when you bet the turn you didn't know your opponent had picked up a nut flush draw. I think S+M recomend checking hands with outs on the turn and betting hands with no outs.
You were right you're opponent was agressive. Open raising with Axs in early position, then raising on the come on the turn. You got a little frisky yourself on the river.
Sorry when you both made hands on the river his was bigger.
I would have bet the flop having an open ended straight draw in a heads-up situation and see how he handles it. It may prevent him from being overly aggressive on the expensive street. Regardless, you were earmarked to lose money here and your play cannot be faulted. A player who open raises in early postion with Ace-Little suited in a full tabled limit hold'em game is someone you want to spend a lot of time playing against.
Your cap on the river was incorrect; if this had occurred in a game with unlimited raising (heads-up) it would have been a terrible play - since you couldn't get re-raised it was a less serious error but it was still wrong.
If you knew nothing at all about your opponent, you would still have been better off giving him credit for a "hand" when he raises first-in from early.
Even if he doesn't need a premium hand to raise, there are alot of reasonable (?) hands he could have held that beat yours.
Ah,Kh / Ah,Qh / Kh,Qh are all solid hands that beat yours, as is any suited (or even UNsuited) "KQ".
If he is a little on the wild side, you lose to: Ah,Th / Kh,Th, / Ah,9h.
If he is on medication, you lose to: Ah,Xh or even Kh,9h.
I'm not sure how I would have played the river - given the benefit of 20-20 hindsight I would have probably bet out and just called if raised; I might have check-raised [as you did] but would NEVER have put in the fourth bet if re-raised.
The third heart - even if it did come runner-runner - is bound to stop him from re-raising your check-raise unless it helped him ALOT.
I used to play alot of 5 card draw; if you stood pat and got check-raised by a three card draw, you were beaten 99.9% of the time - I never saw anyone try to bluff out a pat hand, especially if they KNEW you had a real hand. You may have been a ~ 100-1 favorite going into the draw but you were a 1,000-1 underdog after the check-raise.
- If the 3-card draw bet out and three-bet after you raised, you COULDN'T win.
(I am, of course, assuming you couldn't beat Jacks-full or better.)
The same applies here. When the river made your straight I would have made you a HUGE favorite to win the hand; once he re-raised your check-raise you barely had a call, even though the pot was offering you well over 10-1.
- You [probably] had less than a 5% chance of winning once he put in the third bet - I am again assuming him to be at least sane - still you almost had to call unless you wanted to be "run over" by every other player in the game.
You capped it with the bottom end of the straight; capping it with the top end would have been very questionable - capping it with less than the nuts might have been a mistake. BTW, I am not afraid to bet when I like my hand.
As for the rest of the hand, the pre flop call was marginal but acceptable IMO. I think you played the flop and turn as well as they could have been played, knowing as you did that your opponent was capable of having almost anything.
Question: Obviously this depends on what the river brings, BUT, what was your plan if you missed ?
P.S. Absolutely no intention on my part to be overly critical - (as I'm fond of saying when warranted, and it is in this case) if this is the biggest mistake you ever make you have a very bright future ahead of you.
Best wishes,
J-D
Fair points, but here is some further background. I would say that when the BB is heads up with a preflop raiser and checks the flop, in these games that I play, the raiser will bet 95% of the time. His check told me either (1) he is an unusually tight player for this game and has overcards only, or (2) he has a monster like 10-10 or 9-9.
When I bet the turn and he raises, I felt pretty sure he had a set. I would not have reraised him if he had the right to raise again.
I realize this was quite aggressive, but sometimes you take a shot.....
What kind of player raises with AXs in early position, then checks the flop?
Jim:
I posted this hand because I believe every decision I made was debatable -- I think it's an interesting hand. Is the pre-flop call really so marginal, as the other posters say? What if I preface the question by saying I was not shocked when I saw his A2s (i.e. people raise from early position with a lot more than Group 1-3 hands in this game)?
I almost bet the flop, but chose not to. Do you like this admittedly passive decision better in light of the fact that in this game, the preflop raiser will bet 90+% of the time in this scenario and will raise if bet into most of the time, even with just overcards?
SW
and I look forward to Jim's thoughts as well but I think this was a interesting hand also and would like to add a few thoughts.
If the open raiser came in from a steal (late)position who might be raising on anything I MIGHT be more inclined to defend my blind but let's face it 87s is just is not a headsup hand. Since he open raised early I have to feel it's right to muck to a raise. Also as you say you weren't surprised to see his A2s since he was so loose why not just wait for a better situation to punish him for his loose play?
Also, since you describe the game texture as that had you had bet the flop you might of been raised by opponents who had just overcards, wouldn't the same be true when you bet the turn since both of you showed weakness on the flop and he may have thought you were trying to buy the pot on the turn?
This was an interesting hand and you had your reasons and reads for playing it the way you did and I agree with Jim you were probably destined to lose on this hand no matter what you did especially after he picked up the nut flush draw.
But I do think you ended up gambling with the gamblers here and maybe could have picked a better spot to do so.
Just my two cents from another post mortum "coroner"
Best of luck Scott!
Butt away!
Good points. I usually post the hands that got me in trouble, and I knew each of these moves was sketchy. The last raise was definitely a reach, but my read was strong. (He checks the flop. My mind goes "SET?" He raises the turn, my mind goes "Set." He raises the river, my mind goes "SET!") Still, I knew it was way out on a limb. Live and learn.
BTW, it was all on loan -- he busted hard in an hour or so....
I believe your call of a raise from the big blind with Eight-Seven suited even heads-up is okay. You are getting 3.5:1 pot odds to see 3 cards. Against one opponent who could be raising on over cards, a pair of Eights or Sevens could be good. I think your straight and flush possibilites make calling correct here given the fact that you are already half-way in. I would fold this hand from the small blind when faced with an early position raise but not from the big blind. If you know that betting the flop has no chance of allowing you to win the pot outright or will not slow him down on a later street then checking is right.
i just think you were blinded by the fact you made your straight and diden't take the time to see waht could have beat you.
Incorrect. I locked into a read and overbet my hand, but I was fairly certain I knew what he had.
You have a questionable pre-flop heads-up call to begin with. Since you have decided to call, you are faced with an favorable flop, i.e., an open ended straight draw, and having been in a heads-up hand with a "loose player," you should have bet the flop. I would even reraise him on the flop just to see where the things stand. The rest of it played out itself. Once you termed the oponent as a loose player, do not hastily put him on a trip, because you'll cripple your action.
I think the flop almost calls for you to semi-bluff bet the pot. I´d also have put your opponent on a wider range of hands, that might have saved you one big bet on river.
I often cannot believe some of the things I read on this forum. Could it be that 78s suited is marginal call out of the big blind? I think the implied odds w/this hand are big and with 3 1/2 to 1 I think this very good call . You will flop a straight or a flush draw something of the order of 15% and there are other ways to win.
And if you are folding too often to players who are raising too often when you are in the big blind you are giving up too much.
On the flop Scott would be getting 5.5-to-1 if his opponent bets - not that exhilarating when you need better than 4.22-to-1 (four-flush) or 4.88-to-1 (o.e.s) and have nothing in the way of high cards. But if the raiser is loose, you can call, although it´s marginal, so hillbilly is not that wrong IMO.
I always have believed that you can learn a great deal from others. I am going to post my 3 biggest resolutions and would like you guys to do so also. Maybe someone's post will help another work on his poker in the new year. My resolutions and their order of importance to my game.
1. Laying down overpairs when I know their no good. Too many times in the last year have I had aces or Kings and the flop came with a paired board and I payed off some bets when I knew my hand was no good.
2. Being disgusted when I get a 1-3 outer put on me from someone who should not have been in the pot. Having been playing for a couple of years now, I have learned not to degrade a player or show real anger but appearance is a huge part of poker as is perception. lately I have been working on telling a player "nice hand" in a sincere manner when that opponent draws out on me and on more than 1 occasion has that opponent later on checked to me and/or turned his hand over as to not give me another bad beat.( Hey, it works )
3. Go for a big win and play some pot-limit: I usually play 20-40HE and have been doing very well but I have gotten into a habit of hitting and running but not on purpose. If I get up $300-$600 I will usually tell myself that the next pot I get involved in and don't win that I'll leave. I have booked a lot of winners in the past few months (14 out 18 sessions) and few and small losses but not any huge wins($1200 at most). I want to learn to get a killer instinct and take every chip off the table, but still be able to leave if it turns on me.
Anyway, Happy New Year to all and I will be dealing the World Poker Challenge in Reno. My name is Russ and if we have to wear nametags it will say Houston, Tx. Say hello.
Russ
Here are some of the things that have been bugging me about my play that I'd like to resolve.
That's pretty much the gist of my issues. Hope everyone has a great new year.
~stephen
ps. if anyone can give the the definitive answer the Life, the Universe and everything (other than 42) that would also be greatly appreciated. thank you for your support.
if you don't have metaphysical answers and you're not willing to see what the great thinkers have to say about these issues (and who can blame you?) then just make them up.
otherwise i would start with nietzsche (who will take you from the greeks to goethe and give you a solid foundation on what people in the past have made up for themselves.)
when you get tired of this find a good woman.
if you already have a good woman then just forget about philosophy. focus on contemporary social issues that will affect your kids.
brad
p.s. i guess i just couldn't help posting this. i must be getting old :)
Hey brad. I have this thing where if I am winning or losing exactly $42 I quit the game.
Life, the universe.. and poker!
- Joe in Connecticut.
.
I'm in an 8 handed 30 - 60 game. I'm on the button with 7c7d. UTG limps in, a middle position player limps in(MP), and I limp in as well. SB calls 15, and BB raises. All call.
The flop is Ad 4s 5d. Everyone checks to me, The BB is a tight, straightforward playing older man. For him to check he must have a big pair and not a big ace. Should I bet and represent an ace or take the free card and hope for a 7? I bet, SB calls, and BB calls, UTG and MP fold.
The turn is a 6s, and its checked to me again. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to move the BB off his hand or not being as I'm the button. I bet one more time planning to check the river if the BB calls. SB calls and BB folds.
The river is a 10c. SB checks, do I check as well as I can beat a flush draw that didn't hit the T, or do I bet and hope he'll lay down a diamond draw that did hit the T or even possibly a weak ace that he was hoping to hit his kicker?
I'd like to know the answer to this one personally. These are the kind of decisions that I think plague me at the table all the time. I don't know for sure what the most correct thing to do in this situation but I think I have some of the logic worked out.
I don't think the SB has an Ace or you would have felt it on the turn, unless he's got a kicka problem. Am I right? I don't think he can call on the flush draw since he missed and you've been representing an Ace the whole way. But what if he has KdTd? If you bet it out is he the type of person to call it with the Ten? I would think you have to know that person. The other question here is what are the chances that he has pocket Tens and is planning a check-raise? What if he has Kings? Since there was no raise pre-flop he could think you do not have the Ace.
I think I would check the river to see what the SB was holding for future information.
Here's another scenerio. I have 7d7s on the button in an unraised pot. There are a total of 6 players seeing the flop which is: 7c, 5c, 2s. The flop is bet and raised before it gets to me. I 3-bet my set and the bettor and raiser are the only callers. The turn is the 4s and it's check to me and I bet. The original bettor calls and the next guy raises! I 3 bet it again and everyone calls. The river is the Qc. The action is checked around to me. There's nothing that I can do at this point, can I? I can't bet the river seeing the flush draw getting there and an overcard for the check-raisers pocket Queens? Would anyone bet the river in this situation?
~stephen
In your situation no I would not bet, your not going to get a better hand to lay down, although I suspect you have the best hand as a flush would probably bet out as opposed to check raise.
I would almost always bet as players don't usually go for checkraises in this situation if they have made a flush. They bet it out.
Don't worry about pocket Queens. It's an unraised pot so why would you think that's out there? As a general rule, you should never worry about the last card giving someone a set. That's a real longshot.
Ace or ten dropping to a bet in a heads-up pot. But it might be worth a shot against a weak- tight opponent who is not likely to raise you back as well.
The SB has to have something here given he called a flop and turn bet. What is your read on this player?
I think only an extremely loose player would call your bet with a small pair that can't beat yours and any other type caller has you beat. So I would guess you check it down depending on your read of the SB.
I think you correctly identified the only hand that you cannot beat that might also fold if you bet (10dXd). If he has something like 67 or 33, you win (and he would fold to a bet). If he has Ace-X (my guess), he is not going to fold. If he has something like 99 or 88 and he is willing to call the turn, he is not going to fold now.
I don't think you should bet.
Do check...is the answer.
Your assertion that he might possibly lay down a weak Ace on the river is quite unrealistic. No good player will call the turn with a weak ace and then lay down on the river for one more bet. First of all, no good player with an Ace will likely just call your bet on the flop. He will likely raise.
While he may lay down a pair of Tens which he accidently hit while chasing a Diamond draw, that too is unlikely as he may well put you on the missed diamond draw as well. There is enough doubt for him to call.
BTW, I hope that you would almost never lay down an Ace on the river here if you were the sb.
If I was in the SB I'd of checkraised a small suited ace after the preflop raiser checked and a late position bet, but I have seen players make this laydown. I've moved the BB off of a big pair for sure, and I obviously don't want him to know this. Would this affect your decision to check or bet at all?
I probably would not let those factors affect my decision. Over many sessions, you can't hide the fact that you have the ability to play deceptively. I am sure that the bb has probably moved you off better hands on occasion as well. That's poker.
I wish very much for an answer to this question. I've asked the same type question in a different format years back. My problem was being heads up soon after the flop with the BB leading into a paired flop. I was on the Ace high flush draw, read him for the same draw and took over the lead. The flush never came. On the river I checked the Ace high only to lose after he had paired a 3 on the river. In compairing your problem to mine I think now the recommended procedure may be to bet the Ace high with small cards on board and check the Mid-pair with overcards on board. I would like more input for this problem, as it is one that comes up every so often. I would hope that our host give some input here. It was recommended that a check is called for, however it must be player and board dependant. Please expand on these thoughts.
Generally, you are better off checking down Ace high hands on the river when you have position. Often, you have to be prepared to check/call if you are first to act.
BTW, if the river card was an Ace, you should bet...for value.
Well the popular vote seems to call for a check. I however not wanting to show down my hand, as I had moved the BB off of a probable winner, and wanted to be able to continue doing this bet. The SB flips his cards face up 10d Jd, and looks at me for a moment. I guess I didn't give him enough to read because he mucked, much to my relief.
I wouldn't have put him on an Ace, or he probably would have, as you conjectured above, raised on the flop. Some players will go into a check-and-call mode with a weak Ace in the sb, but usually only head-up (which, heads-up, is probably the correct way to play it).
So an on-the come hand would be more likely. In order for him to have a Ten, the only other card matching a card on the board that would beat you, he would have to have precisely the ten of diamonds. I wouldn't like your chances of him laying down a ten (and, stubborn moron that I am, I say this having already seen the results), but he did in fact play the hand very passively (call, call, call, call), so he might be a timid enough player to lay down a ten.
He could also have been on-the-come for a striaght and made a pair of 6s; this weighs down on the side of betting; as does the fact that perhaps he could have a pair of 8s or 9s. So I have to admit that I probably would have checked and lost, but upon further thought, your bet looks better than I would have thought while playing the hand. (And not just because he mucked a winner.)
Well done.
Well I've always said you can make alot more money if you play bad and get lucky, then play well and be unlucky ;)
Doug,
Of course I haven't peeked yet.
Against a tight old man (TOM) I like your flop bet. But I would not be happy that I was called in two places at this point.
On the turn you picked up a draw in addition to your pair. I would follow throught with a bet as you did.
On the river I would check. He very well could put you on a draw and with a pot this big would rarely lay down a draw of his own that paired the ten. If he was calling with a pair that beats you or a weak ace he is certainly the type to almost always call the river head up.
On the other hand, you may have a river value bet against a weak player who might have called the flop and turn with a hand such as 34 or 24. To make a value bet this thin, you would have to know your player.
Regards,
Rick
I haven't read any of the other responses, so here's my two cents and folks feel free to correct the thinking here.
You need to bet the flop and limit the field. You may have the best hand, some or all of the other players may fold a better pair fearing an ace, and any hand with overcards to your sevens youwant out of there. Make them pay for their hit.
You need to bet the turn, if they both call you definitely are being paid enough to draw your up and down straight draw and if you are check raised I feel you could still call, thought this may be marginal.
I wouldn't bet the river because only a hand that could bet the sevens is likely to call. Here you can save a bet if you're beaten, and IMO you wouldn't get a call if you are not.
This is a pretty easy bet. There are 8.5 BB in the pot. A worse hand will never call, but that's not the point -- you want a better hand to fold. If a better hand folds more than 12% of the time, your bet has a positive expectation. Given the action you describe, after the BB drops I would assume I have the best hand on the river (it turns out you didn't) but that any hand that is better is not much better and therefore will drop at least 12% of the time to a river bet (as happened in this case).
You played your hand well. The SB on the other hand should have check-raised the turn with the flush draw and likely 15 outs. You limped in, which reduces the chance that you have an Ace most of the time. Although you would have called the turn check-raise due to your straight draw, you couldn't have called a river bet. Since the SB actually gained a hand to show down, the SB should have checked and called on the river, getting 9.5:1 in this case or if he had check-raised, getting 10.5:1 or 11.5:1 depending on whether you bet the river or not.
- NW Card Hack
i was watching a couple of guys last nite playing heads up 10-20 holdem on paradise......lastchance and some guy seems like the name was JimmyDeSwain or something to that effect. These guys were jamming unmercifully preflop probably 90% or more of the time and the both seemed to go the river most of the time. My question is this....how or can you slow this style down? Can you prevent this style of play from eating your blinds alive? Do you just hold your breathe wait for reasonable cards to start and go to the river? Play everything wait for second pair or better on the flop and then go to the river?............any way the second guy ends up taking about 2grand off of last chance but to be honest i didn't see too much difference in their styles of play.
I've played a good amount of internet heads up poker. And you're going to run into alot of this. And it is actually an effective strategy if your opponent misses a few hands and the junk you play hits a low pair along the way that beats their overcards or ace high. I've found the only way to counter it is to play harder with your made hands even ones as weak as second pair, then call more with ace high and even king high. One thing I do know, waiting for a real hand won't work.
Hand values change considerably heads up.
Observe if you do not have a pair before the the flop it is about 50/50 that you will have one on the river.
If you want to wait for made hands in a heads up a game you are giving away money. I think if you look at the shorthanded section in the holdem book, or abduls website you will get a better idea how to play short...
How do you go to Abdul's website?
Thanks. BK
http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/index.html
This is a long post! Apologies in advance.
Just before Christmas, there was an interesting thread on the roles of luck and skill in results. On the one hand, a group of folks argued that that there are essentially two groups of players, winners and losers, and over time, skill differentiates the two. On the other hand, a group argued that while skill is important, luck is such a dominant factor that a good player can easily have lesser results than a poor player.
I've just gone through a very good run of cards, winning 18 of 22 sessions in December over 144 hours winning 280 big bets, mostly at 30-60. But while I would like to give myself a nice pat on the back for being such a skillful player, it turns out that my standard deviation for this amount of play over this amount of time (using the formula's in Mason's book) is 147 big bets, which means that there is a very good chance that a good bit of my profit was due to luck. It is even possible -- though unlikely -- that all of the profit was due to luck (the chance of this is about 1 in 40).
Over the course of the last year (nearly 800 hours) my win has equaled my standard deviation, which means that I could easily have lost as much as I won, or more likely, either broken even or doubled my win.
When you consider how skillful you are, keep in mind the standard deviation of your play. A quick and dirty way of estimating the value of 1 SD of your play over course of the year is to take the square root of the number of hours you have played and multiply that by 13. Your actual standard deviation is probably about 12-13 BB / hour, and you can determine your own std. dev. if you want to be more precise (mine is about 12.75), but by doing the back of the envelope std. dev. calculation you can get an idea of the the relationship between luck and skill in your own play.
To take a hypothetical example, if a player played 1,500 hours per year, expected to win 1 BB/hour, and had a SD of 13 BB/hour, that player would have achieve a profit of between 1,000 & 2,000 BB 67% of the time. 95% of the time it would be between 500 & 2,500, and for all but the most extreme cases (99.9% of the time) it would be between 0 & 3,000 BB).
How many of you take the time to determine your standard dev. and what it says about the relationship between luck and skill in your play? What types of results have you achieved?
May the standard deviation swing in your favor!
- NW Card Hack
Good and interesting post. I was a participant in the earlier thread that you mentioned. I don't think your characterization of it, however, is quite correct.
I was in the group that felt, as you accurately describe it, that there were basically two types of players, winners and losers, with skill being the determining factor over time.
However, I don't think the other side's argument, notably Jim Brier's posts, was quite as you describe it. Jim's point was, I believe, that among skilled players luck is an important factor. No amount of good luck can, long term, turn a poor player into a winner. And no amount of bad luck can, long term, turn a player who plays better than his opponents into a loser. But the "suck out" factor, Jim argued, is important in determining who, among the good players, has the highest win rate (and conversely, who, among the poor players, has the worst loss rate).
I believe it is important to consider the standard deviation as a way of either not getting into the habit of patting yourself on the back when you are running well (as you point out), or getting too down on your play when things are going badly. But I also think one should beware of putting too much emphasis on such an analysis to the neglect of other factors. I can think of a recent session I had where I flopped 3 sets and was "sucked out" on in all 3 cases. But I also failed to make it 3 bets pre-flop on two of the hands where I might have holding moderately high pairs, and it's possible the eventual winner in each hand might not have played. And I can also recall a recent session where I myself "sucked out" to win two giant pots that comprises the bulk of my evening's winnings. But it was my play pre-river enabled me to get to the river to "suck out."
I've used quotation marks for "suck out" because often times, as I pointed out in the earlier thread, luck is the residue of design. But your points about the standard deviation are well taken.
[By the way, far be it from me to speak for Jim, and forgive me, Jim, if I have mis-stated your argument, but I believe your point was as I have indicated above.]
Very interesting thoughts, which I largely agree with. As your post and just about all the others on this board imply, when playing poker you have to carefully balance many different factors, many of which seem to conflict with each other. The biggest part of the challenge is determining what is most important, and what decisions are in the long run inconsequential.
Ummmm nice post, but at first you say your std dev. is 147BB over a small sample. Then you say it is 12.75BB over your total sample.
Isn't this a large variance among variances?
or a large deviation from your standard deviation of 12.75BB?
Can you account for this? Did you change how you play, did you get run over by the deck, did your opponents change, etc.?
Just Curious.
What I meant is that my hourly std dev is ~12.75 BB / hr, but for the sample that I spoke of, given the hours I played, the standard dev was 147 BB for the total number of hours i had played during that sample.
sqrt(hours played) * hourly SD = SD for a given period of time
Most likely 147 is his variance, and 12.75 is his standard deviation. (SD)^2 = variance. On the other hand the square root of 147 is 12.12, so I could be wrong.
- Andrew
I am on the button with the JhTs in this 9-handed $20-$40 game at Hollywood Park. Sitting in middle position is 2+2's own Rick Nebiolo. Everyone limps in pre-flop. There is $180 in the pot and nine players in the hand.
The flop is: 9h8d3h
Both blinds and three other players check to Rick who bets $20. The next player raises to $40. The cutoff folds. I cold-call the raise with my open ended straight draw. An early player calls as well as Rick. There is $340 in the pot and four players in the hand.
The turn is: 3d
The early player checks. Rick checks. The flop raiser bets $40. I call. The early player folds. Rick raises to $80. The flop raiser calls. I call. There is $580 in the pot and three players.
The river is: 2s
Rick bets $40. The flop raiser now raises to $80. I fold. Rick calls. The flop raiser mucks his hand while flashing Ah7h. Rick wins and I did not see his hand but he told me later he Queen-Nine suited.
Was my cold-call of the bet and raise on the flop correct given the two flush on board?
P.S.: Sorry Rick, but I am not sure I got all the details of this hand correct but I think it is close enough for my question.
I agree with your Flop Call
[Last Second Note To All: Sorry about the post title but I want to get the play of the hand straight before replys come in.]
Jim,
The action was fast and furious that night but I'm almost certain the hand played quite differently. I had joined the game in the middle seat (the 5-seat in a nine-handed game) after you had already piled up a mountain of chips in the 7-seat. I had been playing a while in this seat and most of my wins up to that point had come on several big pairs holding up out of the small blind or AK holding up from a variety of positions. I remember this hand (I actually held Q9 offsuit) for two reasons. First, it was one of two that we were in together until the river (in the other I was on your left and your AK got nailed by my AA when an ace flopped). Second, I knew it was an eye-opener and figured it might get posted so I pasted it into my memory ;-).
Anyway, I held Q9 offsuit (suits did not come into play for me) on the button and called most or perhaps the entire field for one bet. Whether it was eight or nine players taking the flop I'm unsure.
The flop came 9h 8d 3h as you stated (or visa versa red). Someone in the nine or one seat (it was next to the dealer – my dyslexia confuses me here) led at the flop and the extremely loose and weak player on my right in the 4-seat called. I raised and the small blind folded. You cold called the raise out of the big blind, as did the very loose, tricky and aggressive player (VLTAG) to your immediate left. Amazingly, the original bettor folded and the weak player on my right called. It is possible there was one other caller for both bets in the two or three seat but I'm not sure.
The turn was a 3d putting a second red two flush on board. All checked to me and I bet again with my vulnerable top pair and OK kicker. You called and the VLTAG checkraised. The possible player in the two or three seat folded (one reason I hate the middle seat is it is hard for me to see the other players) and the very weak player in seat four made a crying cold call of the checkraise. I was very sure of his weakness as he made little effort to play with a poker face on previous hands.
I had played with the VLTAG player quite a bit before and knew he was capable of checkraise semi-bluffs, stone cold bluffs, and all kinds of risky plays. On the other hand, he could also have played a three UTG (remember his Tc5c that pulled down a big pot in early position?). Facing his checkraise, I called. When you called in the blind I was pretty sure you had a straight draw or a draw to the original flop two-flush.
The river came a blank baby (the 2s sounds fine) and the VLTAG player fires out almost before you could check. The very weak player on my right may or may not have called – in any case he was once again crying so I didn't think he could have me beat. Since you had to have missed any possible draw I called. You fold. The VLTAG player flashes the A7 (both red – I think he picked up the flush draw on the turn) and mucks his hand. I show my Q9 and drag a big pot.
I don't want to do too much analysis now as I want to get the facts of the hand posted and agreed upon before the thread takes off.
Regards,
Rick
Jim,
Now that I got the above posted, I have time to look at our plays (assuming I have the facts of the hand correct).
Despite the presence of a two flush, the pot is so big I think your cold call of my flop raise is clearly correct with the best straight draw and two overcards. Some might argue for a checkraise three bet!, but they would have to have spent more time in California ;-).
After the flop action there are between 17 and 20 small bets in the pot (depending on whether or not there was in fact a player in the two or three seat calling the flop bets). Therefore, your call of my bet is fine despite the presence of both two flushes on board. There were at least nine big bets in the pot and four of your outs are to the nuts and at least two more were probable winners (outs that make your straight and the running flush). Little did you know at the time that the SECOND flush draw was covered and had you paired YOUR hole cards on the river you would have had a winner! Naturally, once you are checkraised by the player to your left you still must call the additional bet (maybe I had a three-bet here to possibly drive you out!).
On the river a total blank hit for you and in a pot this protected bluffing was unthinkable.
This hand really stood out for me in that I believe you might have started to understand why I will often advocate thinner turn and river calls or raises than you will in spots like this. Los Angeles mid limit holdem does that to you :-).
I'll pass on analysis on my play for now as I am getting tired and will be getting up for work in less than five hours. It was good to see you again and I'm glad you, my lovely hero “E”, RGP poster and card club critic and play analyst extraordinaire Kenneth Ng and I were able to get together for a drink at the Hustler later that night. BTW, didn't you find it amazing that there is not one quiet place in all of Hollywood Park to sit down and talk on a Friday Night?
Regards,
Rick
Rick -- I agree that, given his current plus implied odds, Jim had to call.
But when Jim points out to you that he recorded the hand immediately after it was over, using his patented table diagram, and that he was a NASA engineer, and that you've been drinking L.A. tap water for a long time, and that he knows his version of the action was correct... well, waddaya gonna do then? I mean, I've been there, and it's not pretty.
Oh, wait a minute. I'm not supposed to read your posts. Damn!
John,
Tap water is A-OK. Jim was dazed playing this game despite making a mountain of chips. He had so many notes that it would be easy to get confused. I hope he posts the hand where he cold called an early raise with T8 suited. It was very un-Brier like but the right play considering his opponent.
BTW, I thought it was Louie Landale that was not reading my posts. Do I have you guys transposed?
Regards,
Rick
Rick, Rick, Rick,
(Now don't start confusing me with Badger.) go here
It's the tap water. It hits the memory first. Still, it's just possible that Louie and I are one. That is what the the intersection of physics and philosophy would tell us anyway.
"Despite the presence of a two flush, the pot is so big I think your cold call of my flop raise is clearly correct with the best straight draw and two overcards. "
The fact of the matter is that in most games Jim's call of your raise is correct. But not in all games. If this was a freak hand in a normally typical game with few callers and not much raising then this is a situation you want to be involved in with a hand like Jim's and a pot this big. But if this hand is the norm with lot's and lot's of calling preflop and not much raising then this hand is a clear fold. In no foldem Holdme games you want hands that can become top dog. You variance in these games is so grerat that you need a way to prevent the huge negative swings from consuming your energy. You need to play nut producing drawing hands if you are on a draw and costly action is involved.
Vince
As for the two over cards part of the equation. How good does Jim hand look if a T comes on the turn and or a J comes on the river. I don't count his over cards as clean outs.
Vince,
I wrote my post way too fast and late at night when I was tired. I missed the fact that on the turn the board paired the trey. The board pairing on the turn was bad news for Jim. He could easily already be drawing dead as you stated. But the game was very seductive, with big payoffs for decent draws. So it is hard to blame him assuming I got the facts straight.
Regards,
Rick
Wow! I'm playing at the wrong club. I now see why you talk about La-la land poker. I don't play as often as most posters, but I've rarely seen play like this in 20-40 at the card barn I frequent most often (Commerce).
Seriously, Rick, in your experience, where are the best mid-limit games in L.A.? I like Commerce for it's convenience to where I work, but also there rarely seems to be a long wait to get into a game and there are usually at least one, and often two, 15-30, 20-40, 30-60 and 40-80 games going when I'm there.
Andy,
In general, the games are pretty good all over although you need to work the change lists and must moves.
I don't like the Commerce because the tables in mid limit are too close together for a claustrophopic and the extra $2 per hour collection bugs me. I also think they are very lax about enforcing the "English Only" policy. But I might go there more often once they expand if the middle section is set up in a nice spot with a little more elbow room.
Regards,
Rick
Man, like some others above, I too wonder about the wisdom of playing Q9 off.
I might play Q9 off on the button in a 4 way pot if my 3 opponents play with their cards face up so to speak but against a battery of players (particularly the ram 'n jam types), I would likely muck Q9 despite my favourable position. Make it suited and of course, I am in.
Some seemingly "implied odds" hands (although it's arguable whether Q9 off fits into that definition) actually play better in a smaller field particularly if your opponents play without much deception because you can win without flopping much. Against 8 opponents many of whom play deceptively, you need to flop the mother lode and it generally ain't gonna happen with Q9 off. Of course, you play very well postflop but in the hands of less experienced players, this donkey will only get them in trouble.
Your play and Jim's play postflop on this hand was of course fine.
Nebiolo...You may be a looser goose than me:)
Skp,
3-Bet Brett post below had me thinking about this today. I believe your argument is correct and I was planning to write a similar analysis under his post. A marginal hand such as Q9 off plays well against two or three weak players as you stated but doesn’t have EITHER the high card strength OR the ability to flop a decent drawing hand (since it has two gaps) often enough to battle a large field.
I think I was drawn into playing it in that the game was actually quite passive except for the VLTAG player who was bleeding off chips and in a “quiet phase”. The player on my right was so atrocious that I also felt I wanted to play with position. The problem is that the other players will cause problems for me and rarely will things turn out as well as they did.
That being said, change the hand to an offsuit one-gapper down to about 64 offsuit and I think it is worth a play on the button. The lack of high card strength doesn’t matter that much against seven or eight opponents and the one gap hand flops a lot more draws. But I’m willing to be chastised on this one too ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Well, 64 off can get you in a lot less trouble than Q9 so in fact, it may be worth a shot on the button against a large field. Conversely, this hand should be dumped against those 3 weak opponents against whom I might play Q9 off.
.
While it is a challenging task to make lots of poker playing sense out of "La-La Poker," I like to ask Jim the following:
Per Rick's interpretation of the hand, you cold-called, in the big blind position, the raise on the flop, drawing to an open-ended straight in spite of the (a) two suited cards on the board; (b) a half dozen or so many players still in the hand (some likely drawing to a flash); and (c) possible re-raise.
I am not sure how does one mathematically validate such play other than, perhaps, going through a rush, feeling invincible in the session, etc. My intention is actually not to criticize your play as it is to learn from your thaught process behind your action.
When I face a very similar dilemma, I am inclined to muck my hand simply because I might be (mathematically) drawing dead.
Please elaborate.
As far as Rick's play went, I think he played it rather well. Your raise on the flop to protect your top pair was done with authority. Not having been re-raised on the flop, Rick, your turn bet was mandatory. The pot became too big for you in the hand for the river call. It is obvious that you know your territory and have properly adjusted your game to stay ahead.
Nice win!
on the flop hes got 6 outs to the nuts, right?
factor in the huge pot, and i think straight math mandates calling all bets on the flop (more or less).
brad
Let's see...
I would normally fold this hand preflop. Given that i'd called preflop, I'd probably fold to a 2-flush in a 9 handed flop with my flush draw. Given that I'm in the pot when the turn card comes, I definatly fold when the board pairs and I can't close the action.
- Andrew
Andrew,
I'm still up. Jim got a free play before the flop in the blind. In my rush to get this posted I forgot to note the board was paired when he called the turn. That complicates things.
However, I must say that Jim's primary worry that he could be up against a full would be that I would be the one to have it. Jim had a clear view of the guy on my right and he was a living breathing tell. The VLTAP on his left could have had a full but I would presume Jim had seen big raises from him with weak hands going in.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the clarification. While I'm a little too tight for my own good, even I can sometimes convince myself not to fold my big blind when it's limped around to me.
Although with JTo, it's close.
- Andrew
I think Jim's play was alright, but I would have liked for him to slip in a raise somewhere along the way. But I'm starting to feel like a rock whenever I read about one of Rick's plays. Am I the only one who definitely would not have called BTF with Q9o?
I don't think I would have called with Q9o. I would make the call with suited connectors, or suited 1 gapper, or high suited. I think Q9o was marginal at the very best, but I wasn't at the table so maybe Rick felt good about his Q9o.
~stephen
I don't think this hand is profitable here. Is it? Am I missing something? I'm pretty sure I would have mucked it here.
you have the button, everybody limps in, there are several weak calling stations and you don't want to call with Q-9o? Dude!
3 Bet,
You guys are right. See skp's analysis and my response under his post above.
Regards,
Rick
even if only the worst case 6 outs are clean it still has to be alright to call here. i think this is where all the extra possibles you have make this a definite call even with the threat of a reraise. i.e. overcards and back door flush. As it turns out it appears there were only about 2 cards (2 black deuces) were Mr. Nebiolo's hand would hold up ;>)
On page 202, the authors stated "The player on the button raises and you call out of the blind with QsTh and the flop is As9s4d. Your opponent bets and you call. The 4th street card is the 4h. You check and your opponent again bets. If this is a player who will not automatically bet again on 4th streeet, you should fold. Your call on the flop will scare many typical players into thinking that you have a calling hand."
Let's assume this game is headsup from the beginning.
Q#1. What should you do on the turn and on the river if your opponent is a maniac who will always bet on the turn AND on the river? Should you call, fold or raise?
Q#2. Playing against maniacs who will always raise preflop and bet to the end one-on-one, what is the minimum hand that you should go to the showdown with?
Q#3. What is the median hand for a hold'em showdown if you started with a random hand? I read somewhere that it is a pair of Jacks. If that is true, we will lose more than 50% of the time with anything less. However, because of money odds, we should call the river bet with less. Let's say there are 12 small bets (4 preflop,2 on the flop, 4 on the turn and 2 from a bet from your opponent on the river), is it profitable to call with A2? It would be great if somebody can tell us which hand can win 10% to 50% of the time. For example, if we know QT will win 10% of the time, we should call on the river if there are at least 9 big bets in the pot.
Thank you for your help in advance. Art.
Full $20-$40 table. UTG has just blown a ton of money and has dipped twice. He doesn't look like he's phased by his $3,000 drop. He's UTG and brings it in for a raise. Everyone, and I mean everyone, at the table calls his raise. What does that say about the table or about UTG's raise?
I am on the button and I had JdTd. Is there anyone who would not call this?
Flop: 9h5h3d
Both blinds check, UTG bets, raise by the guy directly on his left. Everyone calls to me so I call. At this point I feel married to the pot even though if I hit the flush I might be beat and if I hit my Ten or Jack I still lose. What is everyone's thoughts on this line of thinking? The blinds fold and UTG calls.
Turn: 2s
UTG checks, next guy bets all fold to me and I call.
River: Th
It's checked to me so I check. Maybe I should have bet the end since I had top pair and they showed weakness? The hands were as follows: UTG Ad9d, next guy As9s, and my JdTd takes down a monster pot.
~stephen
I would say the preflop call is almost mandatory, your flop call is ok, having alot of backdoor draws and the pot is large. On the turn I would have to drop, as you're now playing for a T or J, and if UTG's raise was legit these probably aren't good. That being said, after you catch your best card and are checked to I would bet.
The call btf is fine. You have a hand with decent equity and everyone is playing. You actually should consider raising here, since you'll win more than your fair share here.
Calling two cold on the flop with a three straight, three flush and smallish overcards is questionable at best. There's likely better overcards out there. One bet, sure, but two? Still, it's a huge pot so this is at worst a small mistake.
Calling the bet on the turn is much worse. You have no flush or straight outs, and there's a straight on the board now. You weren't confident that your J or T would be good if it hit; there's nothing else for you to hit! On the other hand, there are like 17 bets in the pot, which makes calling with a 3 outer worth it. On the other hand, you don't know which if any of your overcards might be good, so it'll cost you at least one more bet on the end if you hit and it hits someone else harder.
On the river, I'd probably bet once they both check. If they have 9s, they will call, and even big overcards like AK or AQ might call here. I don't see someone stopping at this point if they have a big pair or two pair. This is a pretty thin value bet, though.
Huge, huge pot. Nice hand. :(
- target
actually he had 6 possible outs. given that this was a massive pot with very little agression being shown I think this is an ok call. anyone with a flush draw should've been ramming and jamming on the flop so you can't be too worried about a flush. how would you feel if you folded only to see A-9 take it down?
BTW - are you interested in playing some more practice no limit? with me there there will be at least one fish at the table. later, Boris
I would not have called the two cold on the flop nor the bet on the turn. But then again, I wouldn't have taken down a monster pot!
I think your call of two cold on the flop and the bet on the turn are bordering on retarded. Sure, UTG is a nutjob, but there are alot of others in this pot and to think that your cards are good is crazy. You said when rationalizing your position after seeing the flop that a T or a J wouldn't likely be good... The preflop call is fine/good, but you should obviously bet the end. When you're calling for a hand that you can't bet when you hit, you've answered your own question... Flop and turn calls are BAD.
Wow, could you have played this any more passively?
Lets see, re-raise preflop. Then raise the flop. Then raise the turn. I might slow down and just call on the river since the flush did hit.
ignore my previous post, I thought he had pocket Jacks. I will start reading the posts better next time.
sorry.
I am in early position and 2 people posted behind me. UTG is directly on my right. UTG calls and I look at 6h8h. I figure with the 2 guys who posted I think it's going to be close to a family pot. I know this because I've been at the table for a while. The guys who posted check and the CO and Button are the only other callers behind them. The SB calls and the BB checks.
Flop: 7h9h9s
Is this a good flop for my hand? Open ended straight/flush/straight flush. The flush is probably not the winner, but I'm sure the straight would. The SB check and BB bets. UTG calls, I raise, first guy folds and the second guy calls. The CO calls and the button folds. The rest call.
Turn: As
It's checked to me and I bet. Was this a good bet or am I taking a huge risk to get raised behind me? Only the CO and UTG are calling. No one raised.
River: 9d
What is my play now that I've missed everything under the sun and any pocket pair, 7, or Ace wins. Someone could be slowplaying but I think it would have been felt on the turn. I'll post results later.
~stephen
I won