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I am looking for information(book or computer simulation programm) on 5-card omaha and courchevel,which is 5-card omaha with 1 card open on board like played in Paris. Any tips ?
Use your imagination for once.Only limit can be learnt from a book.
Very important 7 card stud question: How large does the pot have to be on fifth street for a player to call heads up with just an underpair? Don't worry about how you got to this point. Assume player A has Ax/A39 and you have 2K/248 and there are no suit issues. For now, assume all cards are live, we can tweak the answer later depending upon live cards. We don't yet know if player A has made two pair, just that we are pretty certain he started with a pair of Aces.
This situation comes up often in multiway pots when all others fold on 5 and you are last to act. We know we are beat, and possible drawing slim, but the pot odds are large. I want to try and figure out how large they have to be to warrant calling on 5th. Remember, we will probably have position on 6 and 7 unless we improve and we can fold if player A makes an open pair. Let's not include the possibility of making a move on the hand for the time being.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
A couple more thoughts. On 3rd to begin with,you don't want to be in there with a small or medium pair unless you have an overcard or a straight-flush card. IF on 4th you end up with exactly two opponents, both with a pair larger than yours, you need to get the next highest pair out of there in case you do make two pair, and biggest pair goes dry. If you cannot do this you should fold, unless you have made a 3 flush. If on 4th you have 3 opponents or more and cannot get the pot heads-up you should fold, unless you have the 3-flush. This applies to 5th also. In the scenerio you first described, where everyone folds up to you, you can call with an overcard for sure, and 4 to 1 pot odds. Having the 3 flush helps a little. If you have nothing but the small pair, you need more than 4 to 1 pot odds for sure. On 5th if you're considering staying in any scenerio, you might consider raising! (But fold if re-raised.) This would be verses a timid or weak player. Or verses a player who may not have what he is representing. You might get a free card.
I like the raise idea. I didn't introduce it before because I didn't want to bring the way the other player plays into account.
I don't mind playing small pairs with weak kickers in passive, loose games with poor players even for a raise because often they don't have any pair (you can't imagine what type of hands some of these people play--suited in the hole, one overcard, an ace with an ace raising etc) and if I hit my door, they won't be scared in the least. That is the key part about getting involved in these pots is whether or not you will get action if you pair your door on 4 or 5.
That being said, I don't know (I am trying to figure out) if you need even 4-1 on fifth (for all 3 bets, certainly 4-1 at least for just the big fifth bet). Lots of your losers will save you money like if opponent pairs on board or if you don't improve. Deuces sounds terrible but what do you do when you have 9-10's or J's, raise and get reraised by likely aces and a third or even 4th player calls in between. Do you give this hand up on 5th? Especially if the others fold.
I know very well what you mean about weak players paying no attention to like an open pair of 7's on 4th. When I show them trip 7's at the river, they will ask me if I made it on the river. The dealer says, how about when he made the open pair?
I have lately deliberately played in a 2-5 game, no ante, spread limit(not fixed), can raise 5 at any time. In this game on 5th, you may get to call a cheap bet. I can see that with weak players you want to play more hands, and I agree on the multitude of different hands they will come in with on 3rd. I mean, if any two cards reach, they play it. However, with the hands that you are speaking of limping in with on 3rd, I would suggest that you have in mind what you are looking for on 4th, that is to catch close to perfect or dump. (I keep asking the question, how did we get to 5th with an underpair?) Otherwise, you are now playing their game. If you catch a blank on 4th multiway, I'll bet that somebody improved, and you're in no better shape than they are. Have you got 7CSFAP? It has some interesting things on pairs, big or small.
Just to clarify, I am not only limping in with these hands, I am calling raises with them. How did I get into the position of having an underpair on fifth? It could be in the following ways:
i) I was last to act in a multi-way pot with a live pair. If there is 3 way action already and I have position, I will play any live pair here with any live kicker.
ii) If I am low, then it is cheaper for me to play so I will come in probably with only 2 others depending on who they are. If I think the raiser is stealing, I will play heads up gladly.
iii) If I started with a draw and made a pair. I have stayed away from because I didn't want to complicate the issue with a back door draw probability.
iv) I raised and got reraised. If callers come in between and then drop out on 5th before I act (they missed their draws).
I know I may be playing their game but in high ante games, overly tight play is costly. Also, the others are often holding such weak holdings that a pair is a premium hand. In my games the bets increase on the later streets so you can gamble a little more early. In no ante, spread limit, this is not necessary but I wouldn't mind taking the worst of it for $2 if the opponents will consistantly pay $5 when I have the best of it later in the hand if I hit.
I have read 7csfap and it is very educational. However, I think they overrate the level of player in the general game. Their examples always involve legitimate playing hands and don't take into account some of the unusual hands held by many "regular" players. 7csfap is a great primer but adjustments need to be made to optimize your gains vs. weak players.
Again, I must stress that to play split pairs from behind, you have to feel that you will get action if you hit your door on 4 or 5.
By the way, once involved in such a hand, I will usually not dump on 4th unless it is raised or callers in front seem to have strong draws building. I'd hate to hit trips and lose.
Is this strategy working for you?
Very well for many years. I used to throw most underpairs away on fifth as a rule but lately I am adjusting that decision to the size of the pot.
Let me clarify that I don't go looking for situations to play with the underpair and I will often throw away small pairs with dead kickers in early position if no one is in and fold when raised by what appears to be an overpair. It's just that it is quite easy to get involved in these type of hands when multiway action is guaranteed and the others pay you off if you hit trips. Or when you don't become convinced that the other player has an overpair until 5th. For example, I raise with split 9's and get reraised by an aggressive player with an ace. He could have raised with aces, high pocket pair, or 3 big cards, 3 flush. I call because I am not convinced I am beat and can't just fold every time I get double raised. On 5th, opponent still bets when he has caught weak board so now I am convinced he started with aces (or high pocket pair, much less likely) Depending on how much has already gone into the pot, I have to decide whether or not to give up medium pair to the larger pair and possible two pair. It is this number that I am trying to find.
In 7CS knowing what cards are dead is critical. For blackjack there are techniques for tracking the count, such as plus/minus counts, with side counts for Aces and Fives. Aces and Fives are also critical for 7CSHi/Lo. Does anyone have any short term memorizing techniques?
Also, I find it hard enough tracking all the possible cards that could help me. But, once players start folding (rapidly), how do you recall the cards that your remaining opponents need?
This problem seems to be double compounded in Hi/Lo.
Is anyone willing to share their secrets?
Always learning, KeithO
In 7CS, I just remember the folded cards and arrange them from high to low. I also remember suits; once I see 3 of them i forget about flushes in that suit. Works 90% of the time.
KeithO,
Don't look at your cards until Z tells you to or in other words it's your turn and try to remember them as they are dealt. Work hard on this and Z will remember you in his will. (If he doesn't forget)
cf
This may sound a little trivial and silly but it helped me. I used to try and "Memorize the board" when it is dealt out on third street i.e. all seven cards......suddenly it dawned on me that I only had to remember the ones that are FOLDED. I make a mental note of the cards that are folded...as they are folded and the ones that are not folded..I CAN STILL SEE.
What can I say...sounds elementary but it helped me.
Don't fold so fast. The question is how large does the pot have to be to warrant continuing. If I am a 2.5 -1 dog vs dry aces, and a 10-1 dog vs aces and 3's, that makes me still less than 3-1 dog overall. [to be exact, let's say there is a 1/10 chance with cards out that aces has two pair, underpair equity = .9*.29 + .1*.09 (29% if 5-2 dog, .09 if 10-1 dog)] This makes me approx 2.75-1 dog. I will only pay on the river if I make two pair and I will fold if the aces makes an open pair. I can get paid when I make two pair and aces doesn't and I can raise if I make trips on the end. If I make open 2's on 6th, I will get paid then and on the river if aces makes two pair. If the pot was raised on 3rd and there was 4 way action, there are 11 small bets in the pot when it comes to me (4 + 4 + 2(5th bet) + 1(ante)). This makes my price 11-2 to call on 5th. Even if I were forced to play all 6 bets on 5th, that would make me 17-6 dog, which is still worth the price. And I have discussed above how the underpair will improve on that in the betting. Is it still such an easy fold? Doesn't it completely depend on the size of the pot? I am thinking that around 8 small bets should make it worthwhile but that is what I would like to figure out.
Russ,
I love the math. You, Sklansky, Feeney, Abdul, Scott and a few others, wow, what a wonderful party you guys could have. You say 11-2. O.K I'll buy that. that's 5 1/2 - 1 or 165 in the pot to justify a call. Let's see, a multi way pot. Say 4 players. 15-30 stakes. Raise on third street. 4 callers that's $86. Takes a raise and a couple of callers on 4th street to get to $165. Or maybe a few more callers on 3rd street. Either way I think that you would be hard pressed to find situations where small pairs could justify getting to 5th street if the requirement was 5 1/2 to 1. I believe as a general rule folding is the best play unless the pot is huge.
Vince.
A few thoughts. You implicitly bring up a good point that there would have to be some truly terrible players to allow a pot to get so big that the 2-deuces would be left alone to chase Aces on 5th Street. This implies that there was some aggressive multi-player action early, then all the other players conceded on 5th Street. Of course that scenario is anathema to how wild/aggressive players play or even how passive players will play.
Nonetheless, I do agree that if this situation should occur, it would be correct to continue on with pot odds of 4-1 or better. However, any good stud player knows that the surest way to lose your shirt is to play 2 small pair, and that is exactly the hand that Russ is most likely building with this scenario. The key is that he is against the ultimate overpair.
Earl,
Implicit or definitive it sounds the same to me. I have no problem with your conclusion. One additional consideration (however minor) is the psychological or mental consideration associated with playing weak hands. I like being in the lead 5 out of 6 times not being behind. They key is not so much the fact that the opponent has "the ultimate pair", of obvious prime importance, but how well you and your opponent play. Winning at poker can be attributed to playing with minimu mistakes. The more factors you enter into the equation such as pot size, opponents possible holding, how well you play etc. The more likely you are to make a mistake. I understand that nothing in poker is absolute. This is very true for identifying a mistake in playing a hand. Especially if the players involved are very good. But the point is that when you get into situations like Russ described you are "negotiating" from a position of weakness. I don't like that.
Vince.
You guys may wish for bigger things on your poker wish list, but I would be perfectly thrilled with two small pair every hand (there are certain situations that two small pair are not profitable, but not many).
The average winning hand in 7-stud is approximately Aces-up. While 2-pair will sometimes win via a small pair running down the overpairs, the effect of playing with that approach is to move closer to a neutral EV, while increasing your deviation. That is not to say that precise play will not result in positive expected value, but that this type of fine-line exposure will increase your swing. Of course if you know where the break-even point is (as you seek), then of course you can determine which plays are big enough overlays.
Actually, I think playing the marginal hands makes you more profit on the good hands. With the better players, if you only play certain hands you will become an open book player, and that is worst possible kind. I tend not to gamble as much with the wild players because they can bet me off hands and put me in positions to pay too much with certain mediocre hands. But with loose, passive players that give their hands away when they are strong, I try to play anyting even close to break even because these types are giving up money on every decision and I want to be around to get my share of that.
I know that in 7 stud, a tight aggressive image is ideal but somehow that doesn't seem to work against top players as they seem to have a sense of when you are making a move to a hand. With them you have to be a maniac sometimes just to throw them off a little. Also, often running down a strong hand will put that player on "tilt," good for the future. My friends call that ITO--implied tilt odds. You may give up a little here to gain a lot later if you suck out.
I find many of the larger limit games (75-150 and above) are not profitable unless the right players are losing.
I agree with the general rule. Even better, I don't want to get involved with a paired hand that I will have to fold by 5th unless the opponent will give away his hand through betting or other tells. Back to the question at hand, 11-2 is I believe a conservative figure due to positional advantages but it is not difficult for a pot to offer 11-2. Example from 15-30 (and that's a small ante game, go to 40-80 or 80-160 and it's even easier). Ace raises and gets three callers. All call on 4th. This makes $120 + $16 ante = 136. Ace bets on 5th, other (probably draw hands) fold, $166 in pot. Yes this is close but I would play anything near $165 as I think real price necessary is around 7-2.
Another example, you have a middle/high pair and raise, ace double raises and third hand calls. All call on 4th and third hand folds on 5th. This leaves 9*15 + 8*2 + 5(low) + 30 = $186. Do you really want to fold 10's or J's in this spot for $30?
When you add this to even the small probability that the opponent does not have aces (he started 3 high str. flush or got overly aggressive with a small buried pair (under your pair)) the calls become even easier. In high ante games, you can even sometimes play this heads up to the end, but then good judgement is required to remain profitable.
I am not an advocate of chasing, but it seems that these situations arise relatively often.
Also, I prefer more hands to less as I realize I will make more mistakes but I think (hope) my opponents will make even more.
I thought I posted a response last week but obviously it did not go through. But your estimate
"I am thinking that around 8 small bets should make it worthwhile but that is what I would like to figure out. "
almost seems right to me and maybe is. When I ran poker probe the day you posted this I remember coming up with something like 9.5-9.8 range. I think with 9 small bets it's an easy call against most but 8 in my opinion is pushing it a little too much too often. Anyway I prefer 9sb and then we can gamble.
Your points are all very good. Having 2's vs. A's is not the ideal situation, that's for certain, but you touched on the key to the problem, how large does the pot have to be to continue on past the fifth card? The reason I posted this is because I often find this scenario arising in wild games where the underpair (doesn't matter how low) is either the last man in from the low in a 3-5 way pot or a middle pair raises, the ace reraises (assume aces) and 1-3 other people call the 2x raise. On fifth, those other hands often drop out and the under pair is forced with a decision as to whether or not to chase with a weak hand or give up a rather large pot.
I have not played for a while, but if I get into this situation, I will get back to you. It might be a situation where I paired on 4th or 5th, as I doubt that I'd start on 3rd with a small or medium pair, with no overcard, or straight-flush card. I was reading 7CSFAP, page 89 today. He states automatically folding is incorrect, but with the stipulation that one has an Ace overcard or two overcards, and that the pot be offering 4 to 1, and no reason to believe that the opponent already has two pair. I will also add, that it certainly does happen, that the small pair makes two pair, while the large pair goes dry, my dry aces cost me some money a while back, but odds are 2 to 1 against. Good Luck.
you played it fine. just think about when you bet on 6th that the 9236 may have had a freeroll on you, so that bet needs thinking about. if you make two pair or better you may want to bet for value.
now that I've got your attention RZ, when should you play 678 in this game? DeadBart mentioned it was in your book somewhere, but I don't have a copy in front of me. It seems to me that that hand isn't worth much as far as low is concerned and it doesn't feel right when you push your 4-straight on 4th and 5th streets because you're not scary enough to get any of the low drasws that catch bad to fold.
P.S. I'm submitting a budget proposal to the Caltech Student Government to request funds to buy your book for the library of a new Caltech Poker Club...I'm not sure they'll actually do it, but I'll give it my best shot.
678 is a *highly* situational hand. In a few specific instances, it is a great hand. In other cases, it's a total money loser.
It is very good to play against multiple high hands (when no one else is going low). In this case, you have way the best of it, since any low will get half the pot, and you have your straight draw to possibly win high. Also, you can bail if you keep catching bricks, while they will pay you off if you make your hand.
It is also strong against *one* low hand, as long as he doesn't have an ace. It's in great shape against a Razz hand, even a smooth one. He'll still have to qualify to get the low half, and you can win high with as little as one medium pair. (And if he does qualify, that sharply reduces the chance he'll make anything for high)
In a multiway pot against a paint pair and a couple of lows, this should go in the muck immediately.
the only way i know is to scroll down the list on the left side till i find something that looks like what i want. perhaps someone can tell us the best way. i think jf said something once about downloading them all and using windows to search for keywords, but i dont know how to do that.
1. Hold down left mouse buton and Highlight all the titles of the posts.
2. Ctrl & C (to copy)
3. Open word (new sheet)
4. Ctrl & V (to paste)
5. Search for any key words
MJ
nt
Pot-limit 6-card partial-deck Omaha with blinds of 5-10. I'm on the button with AsAcTs9s9d7s. Guy to my right limps, I limp (should I raise here?), blinds call.
Four of us see the flop of KsTc8s. SB bets 40, BB folds, GTMR calls, I call.
Turn Ah. SB checks, GTMR bets 150, and has about 700 left. I have 500 left and raise all-in, SB folds, GTMR calls.
Did I play this hand correctly? SB flopped a set of tens, and GTMR made a straight on the turn.
i dont know what the partial deck was. but it seems i wouldnt raise before the flop here either. the call on the flop was close as in this game its impossible to get action after you hit the nuts.(i guess) on 4th st. i think i would not raise all in. its assummed to me he has the straight and since there was another player after the flop who must have had your cards as well, you may not have had enough outs to raise. it looks like around 16 at the best most likely 11 or 12 and you might get to make a smaller bet on the end and get paid off some if you hit. of course throw out all this if you had the required number of outs to make the play.
That's not Ray's worse nightmare. A blind date with Paul Feeney (in drag) is Zee's worse nightmare. No maybe that's his greatest fantasy. I guess you were right.
vince.
I count only 3 clean outs, 2 spades and one ace. A flush beats a full house right? You're gambling here when you push it in, pure and simple.
This must be a four handed game on the first of april, probably a little late, eh? Which casino spreads this game? ;-)
You might not be joking here. Heck I've played 6 card Omaha hi-lo pot limit. Tough to make the qualifier with a stripped deck though....
Never thought I'd have to ask this question ;-)
The Paradise 8/16 stud game has an unusual structure...$1 ante and $4 bring in.....when we compare this to a 10/20 game with a $1 ante and a $3 bring in there seem to be some basic strategy changes required.
Most good players know that limping in, in a passive game, is usually a great bargain in 7 stud. In the normal 10/20 game there is a class of hands I would limp in with for $3 but never call the raise to $10 even after I had put the $3 in.
Such hand include small pairs with poor or dead kickers, three flush which is not really live, three straight, even a one gap straight like 78T as long as the gap card (in this case the 9) is live, A live A in the hole.
My question is... in the Paradise structure, after I have committed the $4 and it is now ONLY $4 more to call the raise instead of $7, are some of these hand worth a call.
I have been doing it with some hands...but my gut tells me that I am just looking for trouble.
Comments anyone
While the bring-in is unusually high, the ante isn't. That's similar to 15-30 with a $2 ante, and is smaller proportionally than 20-40 with a $3 ante. So I wouldn't limp with many hands for $4 unless the opponents play terribly postflop. In particular, against multiple opponents I would not play the small pairs with poor or dead kickers. I might take a card off with a totally live 3-straight with a 2-flush, a live suited AK or AQ in the hole that are overcards to the board, or a semi-live 3-flush with an overcard. If a lot of pots are getting raised behind you, you should avoid marginal limps. The reason for calling for the bring-in in an unraised pot is (1) your implied odds, (2) your equity in the starting pot, and (3) your chance of winning with a weak hand since probably no one else has any strength. When the pot is raised, even just another $4, (3) goes away, and (1) and (2) sharply diminish. Definitely some limping hands should be thrown away even for $4, although this is very dependent on the situation, and some of the hands you named are markedly better than others. Also consider if the raiser has to have a hand, or if he might be building the pot with a 3-flush, etc.
I tend to agree with your assesment Dan, the hands I liked for the extra $4. were like AQ overcard in the hole or the three straight with the two flush.
I won't usually play these hands in a "normal" structured game.
JIm Mogal
You will need to watch your position more closely on third street, considering the higher bring in.
i dont think you should play the hands you mention even for a limp except maybe the live straight cards. they can only be played when you are raising.
page 62, at the top. How would I know when one of the ace's kicker's is out?
the example is to show you how you can play against a dead hand. or if you must, the aces are in the hole.
I see. Just thought maybe I was missing something on reading hands.
Hi everyone--
I've been playing the 2/4 stud on paradise lately. 25c ante, $1 bring in. I've been following roy west's starting advice for 3d street. It seems like I only get 1-2 playable hands per hour with these guidelines, and it gets frustrating to watch the fish winning pot after pot with two low pair, one high pair, a low straight etc, starting with much weaker cards. What I was wondering is whether its advisable to play this tight, roughly wired trips, high pairs folding to an overcard raise, low pairs with kicker at least a jack, big 3-flushes, small 3-flushes if i can get in cheap, and high 3 straights.
Are these regarded as tight guidelines or middle of the road? Is the ante structure in this game such that I should play really tight? It's only a quarter, and i hardly ever have problems getting paid on my big hands.
thanks.
I think that 1-2 playable hands per hr is too conservative. I have followed Roy's gudielines and find that I can play more hands than that. Depending on the game, you can adjust your play. Remember, Roy provided guidelines, not absolutes. Your position is also important. In a low limit game, I find it is best to trap the low 2 pairs and single high pairs when you have a good hand, but sometimes you must play live big cards when you have overcards and not necessarily big pairs.
Are you winning? I expect you will not win much more that an average of $5-10/hr. And that is good rate for a 2/4 game.
Yeah, I'm winning prob $5/hr. The low hold'em games seem much more lucrative on PP, but that may just be a good run of cards i'm having lately....
roy's advice on overcards seems to be that you can play 3 against 2 players or 2 against 1. Any other advice on loosening up a bit? I get into a lot of situations where I'm up against loose raisers, people who will raise with middle pair/low kicker, etc., and I've been folding these hands with low 3 flushes, middle pair good kicker, etc, b/c this could be the time that they actually have a hand. frankly, i think most of these people will routinely raise anytime their doorcard is an ace...
...anyway, in the cardroom, roy's advice seems to work somewhat well, though I only played like 4-5 pots in 3 hours and lost about 12 big bets. I chalked that session up to cold cards more than anything. Just concerned that I may be too tight for the game and confused b/c the low ante indicates that i should be pretty tight....
I have problems with on-line games because of possible collusion. It is easier to do it than you think. I am not saying it is done, but the possibility is quite high.
The problem playing low 3 flushes with only 2 people is that you often do not get the odds considering the flush might not hold up.
I find that after I was comfortable with Roy West's advice I moved to Sklansky's book (7CSFAP) and took some of that advice. Combining the 2 into my own game has made it a profitable situation but not especially easy. I have never played on-line for real money.
now that you have starting hands pretty well set in your mind, start considering your position. one way that I have loosened up a bit playing 7cs is really concentrating on position.
it's a bit more obvious how position affects you in hold 'em, but if you are sitting to the right of an ace in 7cs it might make hands more playable, especially if the first round has not been raised. That means you'll likely act last at least for a couple rounds (unless someone pairs), and if you pair that door card after staying in against an ace, a lot of people will put you on trips or small pairs. Of course, maybe not in 2/4.
I don't know if this is valid thinking, but I've been playing more 7cs hands lately because of taking advantage of position and I've been doing better.
mth.
This is true only in very passive games. In most games, if you are the first limper, many ace-high hands to your immediate left will raise to isolate you. Heads-up with a raising ace is a disaster for many open-limping hands even if he might have (55)A or an ace-high 3-flush. If a limping ace is on your right, the advantage is that other players will be reluctant to raise, especially if players often slowplay high pairs in your game. In stud, it's not always to your advantage to act last, specifically when that makes it difficult to narrow the field. (Ace leads out, call, call, call, your raise won't make anyone fold.)
I'm curious as to how many people are on average in a pot after 3rd round betting is concluded when (1) everyone limps and (2) there is a raise?
I'd say 3 or so to 4th street on a raise, and 3-5 limpers
almost never accomplishes knocking people out. It is good for getting more money in the pot.
Dpeace - Roy West's book says right up front that it is good advice for a no-ante or low-ante game. The PP game, with an ante of .25 for the 2-4 game (and same % as you move up in limit), is .125 of a small bet. The middle limit game written about in 7CSFAP21, a $2 ante for a 15-30 game, has an ante that is .133 of a SB. So the PP game is closer to a 7CSFAP21 game than to a Roy West game.
I suggest that you use 7CSFAP21 as your main strategy guide rather than Roy West. You need to play more hands, including (aggressively) 22A and 3 high cards, and (limp-in) 1-gap straights, small 3 straights, small pairs w/2fl or 2st, etc.
Please filter this post with the fact that I have not played in the PP stud games, just hold'em and O8. I do not like a low-limit, high-ante stud game when there is a rake, although PP's rake is sufficiently smaller than my casino's that I'm sure you can be a winner.
Dick
I think the worst thing you can tell a new, low limit poker player is to play more hands.
If there are a lot of people in, they play badly, and very few hands are raised on third street, you can play a lot more hands than that. A .25 ante for 2-4 is moderate, and unless the rake is very high is similar to 15-30 with a $2 ante. Against loose opponents be more inclined to play 3-flushes and 3-straights. Much of the overly tight advice given for low-limit stud refers to no-ante 1-5 games, and is not applicable to a moderate ante game, even if the players are loose. You should often play to narrow the field with many of the hands you mentioned.
I do not like to play small straights or flushes against 1 or 2 players. Even implied odds are not usually enough to go after small straights and flushes unless they have a high card.
One problem is that people who play a tight style in a low limit game at 3rd st continue to be tight after they finally enter the hand. Once entered (assuming they have a good starting hand) and if they think they have the best hand, they should play aggresively.
Typically, a low limit player expects to win much more than he is. I do not think that a player in a 1-5 or 2-4 7CS game can expect anymore than 2 times the higher limit per hr (and that's pretty good), so they get sloppy and try to play more hands. Then they show losses
If you want to win more, move up in limit.
If you are against players who will pay you off when you make your hand, they will be profitable. Little additions make a big difference - an overcard, a 2-flush with a 3-straight. Low 3-straights are not great hands, but they are profitable in the right spots. (I will add that I virtually never play them unless the game is loose-passive.) A low 3-flush is a considerably better hand.
wait a second...you're winning and you want to change your game?
I think you're playing about right - 1-2 hands per hour seems a little low, but you might just be underestimating.
Stick with what you're doing for a while until you build a decent bankroll. You don't really need to waste much time tweaking your low limit game. Only use it to build a bankroll and move up limits...Theoretically, this is what I'm doing...
~DjTj
Okay, here's a situation that comes up every once in a while that I'm not entirely sure how to play.
Let's say you start with a weak low 3-flush like A37. On fourth you catch the King of your suit and you bet. Somebody showing 45 raises you and everybody else folds.
What should you do? You're pretty far behind on low, but are ahead by a bit for high - would it be worth a raise? Should you just fold since you're probably just going to call a lot of bets and get only half the pot? Or do you just call and hope you catch good and he catches bad? - it seems like it could go either way. What's the best play here?
~DjTj
looks like you started with a powerhouse to me. now you catch a four flush and have a 3 low. this is a good hand. i wouldnt raise because id want to keep him in the dark. if you raise he will know for sure you are going high and put you on the flush draw or kings up or trips. your mistake was to lead into the 45 hand.
I saw one of the strangest hands I've ever seen in stud last night, as far as the way the hand was played, but now that I think about it, the guy who won the hand really got the maximum value out of it, even though I'd say he played it horribly. Or did he?
3rd street:
Someone brings in, player A raises with a 7h showing, player B reraises with a Ks showing, everyone else folds.
4th street:
Player A: (xx)7h2s Player B: (xx)Ks9h
B bets, A raises, B reraises, A calls.
5th street:
A: (xx)7h2s2c B: (xx)Ks9h6h
A bets, B raises, A calls.
6th street:
A: (xx)7h2s2c3d B: (xx)Ks9h6hJs
A bets, B raises, A calls.
7th street:
A bets, B calls. A shows pocket 4's for two pair (fours and deuces), and B mucks?!?!?! Huh?
Either he knew player B really well or he knew what his down cards were. Often, players at the middle limits play each other so often, they can get zoned into each others play. For some, the poker game then becomes more like a cat and mouse game, dancing on the high wire, using evaluations as to who is bluffing or semi-bluffing to outplay another player all the way through the hand. As you saw, some of these tactics include using delayed resteals and calls as bluffs. The call-with-delayed-resteal bluff is the sign of a very experienced player. Sometimes it blows up in your face though. To some players -- even some very good ones -- the game is more than one of statistics, expectation, and ROI, rather its more about the gamesmanship.
Of course, they simply could've both been idiots.
My guess is that they were idiots, in this particular hand anyway. The player who won the hand plays somewhat conservatively most of the time (especially against me), which is what really surprised me when he turned his cards over. In two separate hands earlier I had showed strength against him heads up. Both times he made a flush and check/called me on the river when I had no pair showing on board. Luckily I filled up both times. He isn't too strong a player but he often has an excellent read on his opponents, and knows who to go crazy with and who to avoid.
In an earlier hand he called the same guy down with a pair of 7's when the other guy had 4 broadway cards showing, and won the hand. This hand may have led up to the hand I discussed as well.
The player who lost the hand goes crazy at times, but he has been winning big lately.
A raise with a 7 up is usually a large pocket pair. A is a strange player to raise with such a small pocket pair. When he paired the board, it was most likely 2 pair then. The raise on 5th by the K would be correct if he had K's and a 4 flush, but he would certainly have to know that A is not going to run after pairing his board. Yes, I would say that A is going to eventually go broke playing a small pair/no kicker verses K's, and with no draw to boot. The only good play he made: He enticed a re-raise from the K's on 3rd and got the pot heads up. I hope there was a big ante in the game.
$15 ante for a 75-150 game.
By the way, of the players I see play, a raise with a 7 up more often means a pair of 7's with a decent kicker or a 3 flush (or an outright steal if in position), than a large pair.
Didn't know the betting limit was that high. Most players in low limit do not have the creativity to raise with 7's/kicker.
played as two aggressive people would play a hand like sevens up against maybe kings with a four flush and maybe a gut straight draw as well on 6th street. a fold was in order for the river unless you believed he was bluffing all the way thru. the sevens up looking hand should have slowed way down in face of the raises for sure. these are close to the kind of hands for those that dont play much with these kind of players, that bring suspicions of impropriety that are not justified.
This hand reminded me of a hand I played in a 30-60 game against an aggressive player. He raised with a picture and I called from the low with buried 4's. On 4th I paired my door and made the full bet, he raised and I reraised. I bet all the way including the river and got called by one pair on the river. Such hands are not that rare at the higher limits, as players try to move on each other all the time and often call on the end just in case the other player is moving on him. I also recall a hand where I had started with a straight flush draw, made a gut shot on 4, paired the board in five in a 4 way pot. I bet, got raised by obvious buried aces. All folded and I reraised hoping to make him believe I had two pair at least. I hit 4 flush on 6, missed on the river and got called by the lone aces. It's a strange game sometimes.
I've read mention of this game several times on the Internet, but I have never read any description or rules beyond the fact that it involves 3 cards. Could anyone enlighten me on how it is played?
Thanks.
Jon I.
I was slightly disappointed that this message didn't get a response...I'm trying it again just in case it was overlooked.
What are your considerations when deciding to call the bring in, or call a raise, or raise yourself(on a semisteal) with a high, live three flush in 7 stud eight or better.
Here are four situations from the Paradise 8/16 game:
1) I have JhAh/3h ,other players show Qd 3c 7c Jd 6h (game is 6 handed at this point)
Action: 3c brings in for $4, 7c calls, Jd folds, 6h folds, I am next to act.
I am thinking that the flush is live, I have two low cards, and I have a live Ace in the hole.
What should I be thinking about doing here?
2) I have KhTh/7h, other players have 6h 6d Tc 7s Kc 5c 5s
Action: 5c brings in for $4, 5s folds I am next.
I threw this away...the hearts were live but the King and ten were not and it's a high only hand.
Suppose the hand had been AhTh/7h is it now worth a call?
3) I have 9s6s/Js others 7d 8d 2h 9c 8c Ah 4d
Action: I've already got my finger on the fold button when 2h brings in for $4, 9c,8c,Ah and 4d ALL FOLD, now I'm thinking of a steal with only two players left to act behind me (well three including the low card) is this a bad thought.
4) I have QsTs/8s others have 3h Jc 2s 4d 6h Qd 2c
Action: 2c brings in for $4, I am next to act(UNDER THE GUN)... I threw it away which was difficult for a hi studplayer like me to do, but I think it was the right decision under the gun
=
1. Raise
2a. Fold
2b. Barely. Fold if raised or if you don't catch a baby heart or an Ace on 4th.
3. Fold. It smells from a mile away; you'll get re-raised.
4. Fold
Okay, I've been posting some crappy hands, but this one's actually interesting...
2-4 7CS8
I have just sit down at a table and don't know the players at all.
I am dealt KKK.
The (xx)2h to my immediate right brings it in and I raise it to $2. One fold, (xx)5c calls, (xx)5d calls, and (xx)9c raises. (xx)7c calls. Bring-in folds and I re-raise. (xx)5c calls again and (xx)9c caps it. (xx)7c calls and I call.
Okay, I put the 9 on pocket aces - I figure there is a much better probability of this than rolled up nines. I think to myself, "hope he doesn't catch an ace."
On fourth he catches an Ace. (xx)9cAh bets (xx)5cJd calls. I have (KcKs)Kh8s and raise. (xx)5cKd calls and so does (xx)5dJh. (xx)9cAh re-raises, 5cJd calls and I just call; so does 5K and the other 5J.
Now I'm pretty concerned about his pocket aces turning into trip aces because he still refuses to back down - I guess I'm check-calling unless I fill up.
I'm looking at (xx)9cAhQs - he bets again, (xx)5cKd5h folds. I have (KcKs)Kh8sJc and call. (xx)5cKdQh calls all-in. (xx)5dJh4s calls also.
On sixth, (xx)9cAhQs3s bets again, I call with (KcKs)Kh8sJc4d and (xx)5dJh4s6d raises. the 9AQ3 calls, which I find interesting, but I assume he's afraid of the straight - I call too.
I catch a full house on 7th - (KcKs)Kh8sJc4d(4c). The 9AQ3 decides to bet again. I call. The 3K46 raises and the 9AQ3 re-raises. I call and so does the 3K46.
What do you think my opponent had? Would you have rammed and jammed this one all the way to showdown?
~DjTj
5 kings in this wacky game?
I think you played it about right, I don't always give as much respect as you did to the nine, but at some point you have to believe them.
When he catches the ace, he is equally likely to hold 3 nines and 3 aces, if these are the only 3rd street hands he plays that way. I didn't see any dead nines or aces in your post. He is 50/50 to hold better trips than yours, and you have other players in presumably drawing to pat hands (straights and flushes). Since in any case you cannot fold because you can outdraw him and read his hand completely until the river.
I would raise and reraise at every chance to charge and/or knock out the draws, letting you and he divide their money base on whoever fills up and how high...
I was at the table for that hand and was explaining it to my son as it went down. I put you on rolled up kings and your opponent on (AA)xA. Half right, I guess.
Check it out on the General Theory Forum.
This hand made me laugh and wonder...
On fifth street, the bring in has open trip threes and bets. The next player, with Q3K up, raises! Last player with T7T cold calls! Trips think for a while and muck!
On the river, I find out that the raiser had kings and queens, cold caller had a gutshot draw and the pair of tens. Raiser caught a queen to fill up, got called down by tens and eights.
Is this a good game to be in?? Is this an expert play? Does raiser have handviewer.exe? LOL
In holdem and stud especially, you will add massively to your win rate if you identify players who will make terrible folds like this. When someone is capable of a "big laydown", you can constantly take shots at him a large fraction of the time the/your board permits. If someone folds trip threes there, he is a human ATM. Now, the other two players may just be oblivious rather than observant. The KQ3 may just think "I have a strong hand, so I raise", or "I want to get the third guy out". Your email is cornell.edu, so if this is a home game (or a game at Turning Stone Casino), I would be inclined to suspect the playing skills of these players. And the T7T's call, while incorrect, is the type of call that home game players make all the time - calling with any faint chance to make any hand.
Even against a totally weak-tight player, I usually wouldn't pop him when he has three threes on board! But if he can be moved off an unimproved big pair easily, those situations occur frequently. I would also be more likely to call his steal-raises, and play more marginal hands against him if I can get him heads-up.
i think the quality of that lay down is completely dependent on what each player knew about the other.
if the raiser had been a stone cold rock for 3 hours straight, and had been raising this hand before 5th street, the trip 3's might have him on trip K's (esp. if they're all live). when the T's call, trip 3's has to think he is beat (esp. if all T's are live or if the T's raised on 3rd street (with a 3-straight!?).)
Sometimes trips have to be laid down. maybe he thought it was one of those times (you've really got to take stock of the hand when you have trips on the board and get popped). If trip 3's had been smarter, he would have raised him back to see where he really stood. then, K's and Q's probably would have dumped. if not, it's probably a good enough pot for trip 3s to check and call, or bet 6th street if there is no help, or if he fills.
if this guy makes this kind of lay down all the time, bring in the pleated moneybag because you're going to need it, but i think from your information, it's tough to ascertain the quality of that laydown.
mth
I donīt see any chance of reraising here with three 3s. The guy who raised the open trip either is better (e.g. 3Kings) and wonīt lay down his hand for one bet more or knows taht he has to improve anyway. In this case there is no difference if the first player has trips or a made full house. If he catches his card (K or Q), heīll win. I donīt think, that once somebody decided to play the hand this way is will fold because heīs now (after being raised again) afraid of quads.
Regards
m.a.
He can't be afraid of quads, he has the last 3 in his board.
The raiser is clearly trying to tell the trip 3s that I have higher trips, and it worked. However, since it's 5th street already, the trip 3s probably should have called hoping that he would fill up, while trip Ks did not. Of course, the overcall by the pair of Ts complicates things, but give what he actually called with, the players should have known he was so loose that his call did not mean trip Ts, but really could be anything. In which case, you ignore him until he catches another T on 6th street.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The raise does many things that are good, and none of them say "I have quads", which is impossible anyway.
If this is a tricky game, the K's & Q's might be thinking, "if i raise his trip 3's, he's going to lay them down knowing I have his trips beat, especially considering I have one of his 3's" This is thinking a couple levels down.
If I'm the 3's, and I know this player is tricky, and I know he thinks I'm a bit weak-tight, and so he is raising with two-pair, then I re-raise, possibly to represent a made house or telling him that I have a read on him. This is thinking one more level down.
If I had to classify this according to "Theory of Poker", I would call the KQ's raise a semi-bluff, i.e. "might win right now. might improve to best hand." a re-raise from the 3's would represent a defense against the semi-bluff raise. If the K's and Q's is a good player, he should lay it down at this point or raise again. They don't need that drawing hand in there.
Again though, all raises and folds from all players would be highly dependent on live cards and knowledge of the players. If I just sat down at this table, I would probably call the raise and bet 6th street if no help came to either player, then check and call the river. But, I wouldn't play that wimpy for long.
I don't see how this player can be called weak-tight. Assuming that we don't know anything about how these other players play, when my open trip threes on board gets raised, and the paired doorcard higher than my trips called, the only thing I would be worrying about is how much money is in the pot, and do I have odds to call against two over trips. Now, if the game and the players are just generally weak, you have to play the hand differntly. I personally think the lay down is a good one, you don't see many plays made against players with trips on board.
Although I enjoy the discussion, with more thought, I'm finding this hand more and more pointless to analyze with the given information.
I have conceived of different histories (action and cards) that justify a raise, call or fold by any one of the active players at this point. were there other K's and Q's up? what could the 3's have stayed in with on 3rd st., considering he didn't have a pair in the hole (45)3? was the T7T calling from the start or raising, indicating (89)T or (xT)T?.
However, for a limit game, I still find the lay down weak. just last night I twice bet into paired boards that had me beat and got them to lay it down both times. this is the type of laydown that makes the weak-tight player a virtual bank.
that's all from me.
MTH,
I politely disagree:
You wrote: "If this is a tricky game, the K's & Q's might be thinking, "if i raise his trip 3's, he's going to lay them down knowing I have his trips beat, especially considering I have one of his 3's" This is thinking a couple levels down. " --Thatīs right, and I think this kind of play can be quite correct against certain opponents.
You wrote:"If I'm the 3's, and I know this player is tricky, and I know he thinks I'm a bit weak-tight, and so he is raising with two-pair, then I re-raise, possibly to represent a made house or telling him that I have a read on him. This is thinking one more level down. " --Sorry, but I think, this thinking wonīt work in this case. The only time you can show a profit out of this thinking in this special case is, when the raiser really has the 3 threes already beat and doesnīt improve. But still the pot should be way too big for him to fold on the river.
Sorry that I didnīt recognize, that the raiser has a 3 on his board. But in this case it doesnīt really make a difference.
Regatds
m.a.
For this play you need exactly two opponents that is the fellow with the Q up. His raise into the Ten on board announces, that he has trip Q's,( although he doesn't). If it works just right you get the better hand to lay down, while the hand that you can beat calls. It works better, if the initial bettor bets, with a scary looking board, but does not have what he is representing, and you raise into a 3rd player with a better hand than even you have. Sometimes the 3rd player will fold, leaving you with the best hand. You can also make this play if the pot is big, but you have a 2nd best hand to the original bettor, on say 5th street, or 6th.
I see this type of play often in the card rooms that I go into. I'd say 7-stud hi is the most common, though 7 stud/8 is possible when both players are obviously not going low. One player pairs, say an Ace on board, and bets out, only to get raised by another player. The players aren't terribly good, and this all-too-common raise is designed to say "I have what you have showing beaten" even all-too-often it is not true at all. People do this, heads-up, with one small pair, and perhaps a 3-flush. When I see this type of play, I know that I am against a weak player, provided of course that it wasn't the 1% of the time that the raiser indeed has a real hand.
The closest thing to an expert play in this hand is folding trip three's. The rest of the play is absurd. There is no way trips will fold to no pair so the raise cannot get trip threes out and is unlikely to get that hand out on the river (maybe, I don't know the player). When the 10's calls, trip threes has reason to believe he is beat in two spots and possibly drawing dead to the open 10's as there would be no reason for that hand to raise with a full house in that spot. I probably would have played like a sucker and called with the three threes thinking I was beat in two spots but drawing live as the combined probability of open trips being raised by two pair and then called by a gut shot is miniscule. Depending on the cards out and the size of the pot, it's probably a fold but don't hold me to that.
If you recall other posts, this is a far worse situation (lowest trips in 3 way hand)than playing the underpair heads up after 5th street in a large pot.
My girlfriend and I practice 7CS. She catches the Ks,Qs on 4th. I go into a discussion of how this is a scary board on 4th, and in the right situations she could put in a little raise, etc. Next card is the As. Be darned if she didn't hit a royal in 5 cards. That's all.
since its so unlikely to get this hand, the obvious thing that happened is that it was a new deck and the cards were in order or she put a good one over on you.
She has now stated that she wants to play you heads up. But take heed, as her card catching ability would put even "rounder" to shame.
ill play as long as she doesnt touch the cards (:}
Well Mike,
I ceratinly hope you gave her a nice reward for that hand (nudge...nudge).
As they say, truth is stranger than fiction. I was playing in a $10 - $20 stud game about a month ago and someone got a Royal Flush in the first five cards - I don't remember what his board was. But, as is usually the case when you get a monster like this, everyone folded on fifth street. Of course, the guy was so excited about having the hand that he showed the table. I have never seen someone get a Royal in the first five before, but it is certainly possible without any funny business.
Maybe you can convince your girlfriend that you should practice something else that's almost as much fun as 7CS...
Paradise Poker 7 stud hilo 8/16
Ihave Ks Jd/ Kc and others have 6d 9h Ad As 2c Ah 8d Action:2c brings in $4, Ah calls, 8d folds, I raise (couldn't resist with those Aces all over the place),6d folds, 9h folds, Ad calls, As calls , 2c folds, Ah calls.
I'm not happy that all three aces call the raise but no one reraised me so I figure my high hand is in good shape.
4th street, I have Ks Jd/ Kc 9d, against Ad 4d, As 4h, Ah 7h.
Action: A7 checks , I bet, Ad4d raises, A4 calls, A7 calls, I Reraise, Ad4d caps it with 4 bets, all call (Well maybe he DOES have the case Ace)
5th street. KsJd/Kc 9d 5s, Ad 4d 6c, As4h2h, Ah7hJs Action:A7J checks, I check (is this right?), A46 bets, everyone calls. (should I raise ?)
6th street. KsJd/Kc9d5sTs (I have now picked up four more outs) , Ad4d6cKh, As4h2hTd,Ah7hJsTh Action: A46K bets, A42T calls, A7JT folds, I RAISE, both call.Pot is now $329.
River: I hit Jc to make two pair , They both check and I bet the river.
Comments on my play?
Just call on fourth street, then bet out on fifth. If the raiser is trying for a flush, you prevent his free card; if he's got aces you hope he'll raise and get the pot heads up.
In my opinion this is one of the worst scenarios possible for a high hand. You have three A's calling you. Having them exposed in three different hands simply means the chances are much greater that you're bucking three low hands for half the pot at best. I don't think the raise on third street is a real bad play. But on 4th street you can pretty much see where you're at, facing at least two good lows, one of which shows a two flush. I check and muck immediately here. The 5th street board looks even worse for you.
Thanks Joe,
In the light of the next day I think I agree with you and the fact that I scooped the pot of $361 (one player had the case Ace and missed everything but still called) doesn't really matter.
I could have checked and folded on 4th instead of being so hyper.
I think your bet on 4 was terrible.
I play hold'em regularly and know 7 stud and Omaha but I've just recently started playing five card draw and I have questions on nearly every hand I'm dealt so here's one.
I was dealt trip jacks with 5, 2 in early position. It was pot limit with six people, the ante was one bet. I bet the pot of six and every one called- no raises. Should I draw one or two cards? It seems unlikely that I will draw the fourth jack so my odds seem the same or better to keep one card and hope that it pairs. Also with a strong hand like trips in an unraised pot would it be good to stand pat representing a straight or a flush.
Any advice would be helpful, and I'm sure that there are other options here that I'm not thinking of.
Trip Jacks will stand up in most cases. Remember that those who might stay and draw 3 cards may well have Q, K A, so the trip Jacks warrants some caution, and you need to be concerned as to how many callers you have in the end. From a tactical stand point (that is getting people to call you) you probably should draw 1 card. However, if you are the type who would hold an ace kicker (and oponents know it), you could tactically draw 2. The arguments for either sides are good. The odds are really not too big a consideration since the draw of the others should dictate your next move. If you are in late position and against only 2 players, I'd probably draw 1 and bet. However, I usually would take the 2 card draw to maximize my chance to improve and let the others guess if I held a kicker. If you have a 1 card draw, most likely you will get checked to.
Your odds of improving to a full house or better are actually BETTER holding a kicker with trips (the increase in the number of full houses more than offsets making half as many quads). Therefore, if you assume that J's-full would win the vast majority of these pots, the one-card draw is the best mathematical play, other considerations aside. I would also take into account that since you bet the pot before the draw, your hand will be quite readable if you draw two (very doubtful that you have only a pair and a kicker); whereas, if you draw one, you may get a crying call after the draw from someone who has two pair.
Drawing 2 cards to trips:
Full House =15.3:1 (66/1081 outs) against
Quads = 22.5:1 (46/1081)
Drawing 1 card to trips and kicker:
Full House = 14.6:1 (3/47)
Quads = 46:1 (1/47)
You see it is not automatic. I and many people whom I know who play a lot of draw favor the 2 card draw especially against >2 players. One other note, most dealers only shuffle 3 times and cut then deal. It has been shown to get a true random distribution, the cards have to be shuffled 8 times. Now, when cards are picked up, often players with pairs fold the paired cards together. There is a possiblity(small granted, but nonethe less it is there) that pairs might "stick" together, and when you draw 2 cards, there might just be a enough chance that will make the draw of 2 cards better than drawing only 1.
The issue of tactics come into play. You should vary the draw to fit the situation (i.e position ) and knowledge of the players (i.e "what would my oponents have stayed with-and will they call me"?)
Ok I understand the play on the pot that I was in let's try a new one:
I'm still in early position with trip jacks 5, 2 with six plyers. I bet the pot two people call the third raises the pot to make it 36 to call to win a 60 pot. Of course I call. With one other caller. what would be a good play now? My opponents are loose/aggressive.
Drawing one card is not at all the best mathematical play. I am simply duplicating ratso's analysis below, but this time in % terms:
Holding one card kicker: 3/47 + 1/47 = 6.38% + 2.13% = 8.51%
Drawing two cards: 66/1081 + 46/1081 = 6.105% + 4.255% = 10.36%
So the better play from a mathematical point of view is definitely to take two cards. The one interesting point though is that the chances of making precisely a full house actually goes down. So if you were in a game where a full house won top prize (some sort of a weird raffle), then you'd take only 1. Course then you'd prefer to have 2-pair...
Steve, Too bad you have to draw first. If you draw 3, you will announce your trips. You will have to be careful of 1 card draws, especially if there are 3 or 4. Even a couple 3 card draws can be tough. I imagine that only big pairs would call and draw, so there might be draws to aces, kings and queens. You are in a tight spot , esp being 1st to act. I would have to draw 2 and watch when the others look at their cards. Draw has a lot of interesting tells. Now if you were in last position, you would have a lot of choices. Actually, drawing 1st you could even stay pat and bet; a bit ballzy, but could work.
I read in one of the poker mags a while back an advertisement for the game of Tonk being spread in casinos. If anyone has experience with this game in a California casino please tell me how good is the game. Are the games active, are there many participants etc? How is the game played - i,e, are the rules modified from the street version?
Thanks - N
Tonk was a game played in the streets of the city. I played in the grammar school rec yard. I do not remember it very well, but it was like gin. Played a lot of BJ before class too....I guess I was a card playing degenerate as far back as then
I was hoping we'd have a response to this query. I've always enjoyed Tonk, but have never met two Tonk players who could agree on the rules. Anyone know of any written rules anywhere?
I'm just starting to learn this game, been at holdem for awhile. I'm using Wilson's software and would like to know if anyone uses their point count system, and if so, which one? If not, how do you determine starting hand strategy?
Also, I'm estimating that the Win Rate and Standard Deviation for omaha is about 1.5 that of holdem, far less that Malmuth's 2.8(approx.). Any input on this?
For anyone who's interested in getting some low-cost experience in Omaha High, the Bicycle Casino's having a high only event as part of their "Mini-Series of Poker"...I think it's next Wednesday, the 26th.
I was at the World Poker Open in Tunica, MS, and I saw Phil Helmuth playing a strange game called Chinese Poker with three other guys. The game uses two decks of cards. To start the game, the dealer shuffled and then delt out four stacks of cards, with 13 cards in each stack. Then one stack was given to each player (max of 4 players obviously). The players then divide the cards into three hands - 2 five-card hands and 1 three-card hand - and place these in front of them. There is no checking, betting, or raising, but the amount bet on each hand is determined before the cards are dealt. The dealer has no interaction with the players, and makes no decisions. While they are involved in a hand, he takes the second deck, and prepares for the next round.
While I was watching, Phil lost over $2,000 on one hand. These guys hand stacks of Big Ben's and racks of black chips. It was difficult for me to believe that one of the top poker players in the country was risking so much on what appears to be merely a gambling game.
Can anyone can explain this game, or direct me to where I might find more information? Is it really a poker game, or is it just pure gambling?
It's just gambling. The best I can figure, these guys use it as an escape from the pressure of the tournaments and high limit games.
It's sort of like a 13 card version of Pai Gow Poker. Players arrange their cards in three 'poker' hands: a 5-card hand (strongest) a 5-card hand (next strongest) (and) a 3-card hand (weakest) and each compares their hand with the other players.
Object is to have each of your 3 hands beat each of your opponents' hands (a 'sweep'). Most of the time, one player wins two out of three.
Payouts differ from casino to casino. Some hands (e.g. quads and straight flushes) have special bonus values so quite a bit of money can change hands during any one hand. There are also hands that are 'automatic' wins (e.g. 3 straights, 3 flushes, 6 pairs)
If you get to the Los Angeles area, the game is played regularly at the Bicycle Club and other casinos.
Hope this helps.
Donald Smolen, who posts now and then on this Forum, has written a book and software program on Chinese Poker.
The book explains the rules and gives both a basic and advanced strategy.
The program plays very well.
You can get both for about $50 at the Gamblers Book Club in Las Vegas.
They have an 800 number.
As someone else mentioned, Chinese Poker can be considered an advanced variant of Pai Gow Poker. With skilled players, it is a gambling game, and luck will dominate to a great extent. With 1 or more bad players, money can be made. Even more than poker, this is a game where you really depend upon your opponent to make mistakes. Once you are dealt the 13 cards, there are literally millions of ways to arrange them, and only 1 of those will be the optimal choice. Now, many choices are obviously wrong, but even so, an unskilled player may miss some obviously good combinations that are much superior to the one they chose.
So, unless you're very good at CP, and you know at least one opponent is a novice, it's probably not worth your time unless you wish to gamble.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
1) This is definitely a game of skill, much more so than Pai Gow poker. The best player will win in the long run. There are many non-optimal ways to set a hand. 2) You must play every hand! No folding! 3) Like Roshambo, you can pick up players tendancies and adjust accordingly. 4) If you are walking past a table at the WSOP and there are three players there waiting for a fourth to start a green chip game and one of those players is Linda Johnson, don't even thing about "giving it a shot"! 5) I first played this game 20 years ago in a home game - $5 a point. We played while waiting for players to show up for the main game. Except it was called Russian poker then. It is a good short-handed game. 6) There used to be an occasional red chip game at the late lamented Wagon Wheel in Mountain View. Mainly dealers.
Dave
I am a beginner.
I was wondering what the proper pot odds had to be before chasing a made hand on the river. Assume you have two pair with the remaining cards live, and our heads up opponent has made a drawing hand such as a flush. Also assume a low limit 7cs game. if he bets the maximum, how much does the pot need to have in order for my calling to be proper play? 5 to 1?
Is this the wrong forum to ask this question??
read some of davids books to get a better understanding of how to figure the odds. simply though divide the number of cards you need to catch by the cards left in the deck you havent seen. for a hand like you ask its around 9 to 1 depending on exposed cards with one to come.
You will need to memorize the odds against making certain hands and on certain streets. Your pot odds need to be bigger than the odds against making the hand. Pot odds are more accurate on 6th street, than on earlier streets. For instance if on 6th street, the odds against filling up 2 pair are approximately 11 to 1. If you are sure you are up against a better hand, then you would need 11 times the size of the bet, after your opponent bets, just to break even in the long run. There are other factors to consider also, such as will your hand be a winner if it does hit? Pot odds, and odds against making a hand are not as complicated as I've made it seem either.
I played Omaha and 7 Stud hi-lo split for the first time at the weekend. Can anyone tell me the best book on hi-lo poker ,in general, for a beginner like myself?
High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee
buy it thru Conjelco on Favorite Links
paul
just in case the first one breaks down
scott
Or just borrow one from your friend Niels at the beginning of senior year and refuse to return it until like halfway through your first year of college. That seems to work for at least one of the posters here.
Scotty, scotty, scotty:
I *hope* Niels, doesn't mean YOOOUUUU....hehe
Mark
listen niels. i'll not tolerate your vicious slander. alex and i are forming a syndicate to eventually rule the world out of people who are both smart and funny. you had a seat previous to this outburst, but i am not certain you still do. however, i may be able to overlook this infraction, whipe the slate clean, if you can persaude julia to transfer with you to columbia.
scott
I am sorry. I did not realize before coming to Rice how rare smart and funny people are. There are surprising few of either here and it is hard to be smart and funny by myself.
As for Columbia, I will require either a $10,000/yr stipend or a bankroll big enough to win it myself.
a very important part of your pennance is persuading julia to come with you here. anyway, here is how i think you should build a bankroll. by into paradise poker for 50 or 100 dollars. play 2-4. play 2 games at once. holdem or stud or whatever you like. win. cash out back onto your credit card within one or two days. as soon as you have 200 profit or so. then move up slowly. within a couple weeks you should have a nice 10-20 bankroll. then cash out and take that money to the local 50-100 game. win. there is your 10000 dollars.
i wont do that last part most likely, but the rest of it coming along quite nicely.
scott
Unfortunately, Ted installed his account on Paradise Poker on my computer when he visted me and now I can't create my own account. Besides, I'd feel like a loser playing poker online.
you are not a loser when you are a winner. also, i have recently recieved instant mess... so alex and mark could send me funny stuff like celebtrity jeopardy. but now i also talk to people. like ted adn julia and you, well not you because you dont have im. how can we fix this problem. my name is scotttheidiot. i got my first choice.
scott
Dealt 8c6c7s in Crazy Pineapple. You are in late position and get into an uraised pot.
Flop comes 8s6s5d.
Do you stay with the 86 two pair, drawing to a full house? or Stay with 76, drawing to a straight, trips maybe and a backdoor flush?
Different if a rainbow flop?
Thanks,
KJS
I'd stay in with the 8-6, because the backdoor flush is not likely to be good, and everyone with a 7 is likely to stay in with that. So if the flush comes, it will likely not be good (plus the fact that it probably won't come, and you're throwing away 2-pair), and if the str8 comes, you probably will have to split with someone.
-CJ
I would take the 2 pair, but I would fold if anyone else bet. That is, if everyone checked, I would keep the 2 pair, but if they bet, I would fold, so it doesn't matter in that case.
With this flop, someone may already have the straight, so if you draw to it, you may just be drawing for a tie. Second, someone has a low, so you're only drawing to half the pot anyway. Third, your flush is runner-runner, and will seldom be good when it hits, as someone probably has a better flush draw going that doesn't require runner-runner, and/or they have a made low with the As.
MOST IMPORTANT POINT: Don't even play this hand to begin with, even from late position. If no one raises, then yes, you can play it from the big blind. If no one raises, and the small blind is 2/3 of a bet, then you can play it from the small blind. Anywhere else, fold it. The only exception that comes to mind is if no one has entered the pot yet, and you're in late position, in which case I would raise with it to steal the blinds. This hand probably plays OK against a single opponent, as they will have a hard time scooping you, unless there is no low possible (so high hand gets it all). With position, against 1 player, I don't mind a hand like this. Against a field, this hand really sucks, almost as bad as something like 5678 or 6789 in Omaha hi-lo.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I didn't know that Crazy Pineapple was hi-lo. The way I play, its a hi-only game.
I agree with Greg for the hi-lo aspect of it, and Greg: would your answer change if it weren't hi-lo?
I assumed it was hi-lo, because that's how I've always seen crazy pineapple played. However, I shouldn't have made that assumption, because it doesn't need to be so.
If the game were hi-only, then 678 becomes a MUCH better hand. I'm not sure if it's profitable or not, but suspect under the specified conditions (late position with many limpers), it probably is slightly +EV, especially if people with high pocket pairs will pay you off when you flop 2-pair or a straight.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just like in Omaha/8, middle cards are the worst: someone's always drawing to a better hand than you. You're playing for only the high half the pot and there's a flush draw out for high anyway. I'd play these as a steal only.
Thanks for the advice.
Just to clarify: this was in a .75-1.50 home game. I know it was a rather loose opening call and would not have made it in a public game of any sort.
As it turned out I (wrongly) kept the seven and never hit the straight. The 86 two pair would have been best.
KJS
My second day playing hi/low stud ever. 6 brings it in, jack calls, ten folds, another fold, ace folds. I got split kings with a ten kicker and raise (this is one of the very few high pairs that I chose to play in 2 days). Behind me is another ace who just calls. My gut tells me he might be trying to trap me, but... 9 calls. 6 folds.
Here is what happens on 4th.
1. xxAA
2. xx9sTs
3. xxJJ
4. TcKcKdKh
Open aces bet (there was one ace out before). 9sTs cold calls. Jacks cold call. It looks like we all playing for high. The Ace might be the only one going for low or at least I'm hoping and thinking that there is a good enough chance he is going for low. But then again would he bet only a pair of aces with a 3 low into what looks like 3 kings for sure and very possibly 3 jacks. (the player with an Ace seemed to be a good player). I call. On 5th it looks like this: AA6, 9sTs8d, JJ5, KK7. Aces bet and everybody calls. 6th. AA67, 9sTs8d7h, JJ53, (TcKc)KK76. It goes check check check and I check (at least I had enough brains not to bet here.
River. Aces check 9T87 says something like well if nobody bet than... and bets. Jacks call. I made kings full of tens think a little and decide to raise. Aces call. 9sTs calls and the open jacks raise. (What the F&&%^%^$^%K). The high limit pro who folded his bring-in says about the jacks: "Ha Ha, players Name backed into a low. Ho Ha" I'm thinking god damn mother f^&^&%^%er. I call to get overcalls (silly me).
The showdown: Jacks spread first. He made a rough 8 out of nothing not even a 3 flush (he was not playing this way). Nobody else wants to open their cards so I'm thinking I must be good and they are waiting for me. I spread and say chop it up. But wait a nice man to my left after a deliberation comes up with none other than aces full. He Ho on me.
Great game. Too bad they don't spread this game at mid-limit in my cardroom. Great game. Enjoyed the hi/low tournament more that any other tournament before. A little more luck or maybe a little more skill and the money should come often.
Hope you enjoyed it.
By all involved (ya'll are excused, berya, it being your second day). The worst play of all was the Aces full (showing AA67) not re-raising you on the river (or else capping after the Jacks made it 3 bets); he might've got the rag 8-low to fold!! What was he afraid of, five of a kind? Jay-ay-ayesus!
Where on earth and for what limits was this abortion brought out under the sun? And what's the fastest way for me to get there?
Ha Ha. I don't think this was the worst played hand in history. It was entertaining though. I think the Ace was going for the overcalls. Since this was hi/lo I don't think his not reraising cost him that much money unless of course like you said the low would drop. I would estimate that chances of low dropping in this case were 0 to none but you never know. Don't ask me how the guy with open jacks being the first to enter the pot made a rough 8. I don't know.
Foxwoods, 30-60.
you wrote: 6th. AA67, 9sTs8d7h, JJ53, (TcKc)KK76. It goes check check check and I check (at least I had enough brains not to bet here.
Is that so? After the Aces had been betting, and now checks, AND the straight draw checks, you say you had the brains not to bet here. When exactly do you put money in a pot? You know where two of the jacks were AND two of the 6's. The A's probably didn't have trips here, or he was equally (stupidly) scared of the straight.
you also wrote : He Ho on me.
I'm not sure what this means, but I'd bet dollars to donuts he had two pair till the river, which means you didn't get the money in when you had the best of it. If he really did have the trip A's, I'd be surprised, and it makes your check on 6th more reasonable, but still sketchy.
I'll defer to the subject heading of the previous respondent for my true feelings.
mth
I'm now trying to learn Omaha-8, so bear with me ...
Ray teaches us not to pursue a hand unless it is the nuts or a draw to the nuts. Is a full house an exception to this, even if it is not "top" full house? I rarely see a full house beaten by quads or by a bigger full house - it does happen of course but my observation so far is that much of the time any FH holds up.
Context: I am playing in a loose 2-4 game on Paradise, with an average of about 5 opponents seeing the flop. For the examples, assume 6 including me with no pre-flop raising.
Example 1: You start with A22K rainbow, and the flop is 299. Do you like this hand? Do you love it? Do you "plan" on winning high? How would you approach it?
Example 2: Same A22K, but you flop 288 instead. Worse of course because 2 low cards are already out. How do you approach this one?
Example 3: Same A22K, and the flop is 29T. Now you only have the DRAW to a non-nut full house. Do you play this hand?
Thanks, Dick
Against several opponents, say all you have is a small set, and there are two low cards and a flush draw on board, you should often lay it down, especially to a raise. If you fill, top two pair makes a better hand. And many cards will leave you vulnerable to straights or flushes, or only give you half the pot in the rare ewvent your hand holds up.
Small full houses are better, since there are many fewer other hands people can have, and of course you can't lose to a straight or flush. They aren't awesome flops, and you can easily lose with 22 on TT2 to when a high card hits the board that gives someone with Txyz a higher full house. In general though, very few hands containing low pairs are playable, and you should be making small sets and small fulls very rarely.
Example 1 - I like my hand, but I want to win it right there. A free card could easily hit 9xyz or give someone a low draw.
Example 2 - Still play fast. Eights will not often appear in the hands of rational opponents.
Example 3 - This depends on the pot size, and whether the board has a 2-flush. You might bet anyway to get rid of backdoor low draws. TT and 99 and even T9 are unlikely to be held by better players.
Example 1: You start with A22K rainbow, and the flop is 299. Do you like this hand? Do you love it? Do you "plan" on winning high? How would you approach it?
Example 2: Same A22K, but you flop 288 instead. Worse of course because 2 low cards are already out. How do you approach this one?
Example 3: Same A22K, and the flop is 29T. Now you only have the DRAW to a non-nut full house. Do you play this hand?
1. yes, no, maybe, fast then slow.
2. same as 1.
3. not against any strength
Dick - "I rarely see a full house beaten by quads or by a bigger full house - it does happen of course but my observation so far is that much of the time any FH holds up."
A22K is a quality hand - and fits nicely with the 299 flop. However, you had better make it expensive for your opponents to draw, and if anyone calls you when you bet the flop, it's time to slow down, just as Ray Zee advises.
Here's a drill to convince you:
Lay out your A22K hand and the 299 flop. Then shuffle the deck and deal out as many hands as players who usually see the flop in the games in which you play. Do five of your opponents usually see the flop? if so, deal out five hands. Then look at each of the hands and decide which of them would probably play this flop. Then deal two more cards to the 299 board. Do this about twenty times and see how your A22K does.
I think you'll come to realize that multiple full houses are not all that uncommon in Omaha, if five or more players usually see the flop, and that being on the low end of one is not the place to be.
If you're playing in a game tight enough that people are occasionally able to steal blinds, or where there are usually only two or three people seeing the flop, then of course it's a different story.
Try the drill and see for yourself.
(Before you try the drill, ask yourself who would call a bet to a flop of 299.)
Buzz
Since you are the two foremost authorities on Omaha 8 or better on this forum, I was wondering if you could give me some advice. I have the opportunity to play in a Omaha game with players who, like myself, are relatively new to the game. I expect the game to be much like the loose low-limit games that Ray describes in his book. That is, I think the players will think of it as a very complex game with endless possibilities, and as a result they will find reasons to play far too many hands before the flop and then go too far with those hands. I understand that just playing tight will give you a significant edge at this type of game. Other than playing four cards that coordinate and then mucking on the flop if you don't have the nuts or a draw to the nuts, are there any general guidelines you can give me for this game? For instance, with what types of hands do you raise before the flop? What types of hands should you call a raise with? How about reraising? Can you give me some advice for play on the flop and beyond? I plan on studying Ray's book before playing, but I was just wondering if there was any basic advice that you could provide on this forum.
Thanks, Mitch McDeer
"Since you are the two foremost authorities on Omaha 8 or better on this forum"
Two of the three. Don't forget Iceman.
"For instance, with what types of hands do you raise before the flop?"
If an early position raise might knock most players out, you might want to just limp with strong hands in early position. The reasons are that premium Omaha hands do better with more players in, and you also give bad players more of a chance to enter the hand and then make postflop mistakes. If everyone will call a raise anyway, then you raise with a large fraction of the hands you play, since those hands will have value greater than the trash your opponents are coming in with.
"Can you give me some advice for play on the flop and beyond?"
Learning the odds is very important in Omaha. Make sure you know the chances of your low draw getting there, and how to count the value of different draws so that you can evaluate whether to raise/call/fold on the flop and turn. A lot of this game comes down to pushing small edges - you make a lot of your money in loose games by raising in situations where you have only slightly the best of it, but a lot of people will call.
Mitch,
back to one of my usualy disagreements with Iceman, Omaha is generally not at all about small edges. You can do just fine ignoring the small edges. A very basic strategy is: when you love your hand, put as many bets in as you can; when you do not love your hold, try to fold.
Winning Omaha is all about exploiting huge edges. A novice will sometimes think they have a huge edge when they don't, but most of the time it will be pretty clear. Likewise, if a novice looks at a board and doesn't think "wow, what a great hand I have", they should be commonly putting their hand in the muck. Either you are a big dog, small dog, or small favorite. Folding is either correct, or barely wrong in these instances.
Push the big edges, and watch most of the rest of the time.
I've been playing omaha 8 for about 6 months, and understand most of the concepts... One I'm still iffy on is raising pre-flop. At first I wanted to raise from any position with every A-2, but then I noticed that it is sometimes very important to have one extra player in post flop so that you are making money instead of breaking even with your A-2. In the game i play in about 70% of the poor players will ignore raises and the rest may lay down their 2,4,x,x if I put in a raise before them. I "feel" that that one player calling with a bad hand (who may have folded had i raised) is worth a LOT to my a-2, not just because i get 25-50% of their bets when i make low, but because they play so incorrectly post flop. So in the last month i've done a 180 on my preflop raising and will almost never raise when i could lose someone.
Is this costing me money? Or are these marginal decisions?
Matt Place
study the book and do some playing. then get back with some questions on the play of some hands and we will certainly be glad to help. the book gives the answers to your questions and good guidelines. playing tight in multiway pots is the prime directive. good luck.
Hey Mitch: You forgot me...hehe. Just kidding.
To give you a more specific answer about pre-flop, which is sooooo important, you can decide to play based upon two methods:
1. 4 cards make 6 hands. If 4 of the six are good, you play. More details are in Ray's great book. Read the book. And good hands are defined differently than many beginners think: They must *really* be good.
2. Texas Turbo holdem uses a point count method, which I like a lot, but you must be mathematically inclined and fast. It counts starting hands based upon cards in the hand, and then either folds, calls or raises.
Mark
In Australia we play both draw and community card poker with a 7up deck (short deck), i.e with the 2's,3's, 4's, 5's and 6's removed.
The number one game played here is Manila. You recieve two cards in the hole but must you both. The first community card is shown and then the first round of betting occurs. Cards are turned one at a time. There are 5 rounds of betting with double betting on the last round. ( There is no betting bsfore the 1st card is seen and there is only one blind.)Hands are ranked as in holdem but a flush beats a full).
Anyway I sat down tonight and worked out the odds of each possible hand and two my suprisement I worked out it is more difficult to get a flush than a four of a kind.Even more suprising was that NO PAIR BEAT A PAIR. Where am I going wrong?
POSSIBLE MANILA HANDS (7S UP)
STRAIGHT FLUSHES 16 FLUSHES 208 FOUR OF A KIND 224 FULL HOUSES 1344 STRAIGHTS 4080 TRIPLETS 10752 TWO PAIRS 25088 NO PAIRS 95648 ONE PAIR 105728
TOTAL 201376
its not unusual for the no pair to "beat" a pair because most of the pair hands turn into bigger hands. if you play manilla i hope you play awful tight as that is the most important thing to do in that game.
The partial deck changes everything. If you doubt this, try playing Omaha with a partial deck.
1) No pair is also harder to make than two pair in seven stud.
2) I think there are 224 flushes, making it the same likelihood as the full house.
8x7x6x5x4 (Number of flushes in one suit) divided by 5x4x3x2x1 (Number of orders that it can come) x 4 suits = 224
DJ
DJ,
Must subtract the 16 straight flushes from the 224 giving you ans answer of 208.
Do you agree on the possible quads - 224.
Thanks
Eric
You're right, I forgot the straight flushes.
Well, 8 ranks of quads x 28 different kickers for each = 224. Did you get something different?
DJ
Thanks for checking my work DJ.
It is amazing how many players (even good ones) chase a flush (in Australia with the small deck)when they have poor siuted hole cards (i.e. Js,7s) when the first community card is of same suit (Qs). Sure it beats a fullhouse but these figures prove just how hard a flush is to make.
Thanks once again DJ.
Eric
Having only played this game once, during my trip last year to Melbourne, it occurred to me that all the players liked JQs as the best starting hand, tho it is also a factor of the 1-card flop. I don't know how correct that is, but I do know that a pair of aces usually looked a lot better at the beginning of the hand than the end. I would love to see some type of Abdulian simulations for this game, even tho the odds of me playing it for more than .5% of my poker career are slim.
JG
A friend of mine who regularly plays 7CS e-mailed me this question, and I, being a hold 'em player, had some trouble answering it with any surety. It's pretty basic.
In mid to late position, you've got three to a flush, headed by an ace, and you're facing a raise. Either 1, 2, or 3 of your suit are dead (aces aren't). I realize there are a lot of contingencies here, but should you play this hand, and how would you play it, in the following situations:
1. Early position raise (2 SB), many callers to you.
2. Early or mid position raise, 1 or 2 callers.
3. No one in yet, raise to your immediate right.
If the aces were dead, would it make a difference how you would play? Is this hand playable for a raise if 3 of your suit are dead? Do straight possibilities make this hand significantly better? And if anyone can think of other situations that might come up here, fire away.
Bill
i would usually raise except where there are cold callers then i would usually call. with 4 of my cards (suit and aces) dead you do not have enough showdown equity and should usually fold. i only play that hand if i have am sure to get it heads up and have a good chance of taking it down (now or later).
scott
Scott, Do you always raise with 3 flushes and 3 dead of your suit? Is your raise to knock people out and use the ace for value (i.e head up) or do you want to get more money in the pot. What do you do if reraised?
with 3 of my suit dead i wont play it without the A. so the raise is to knock people out and use the A for value and to conceal my flush and to make the opp more likely to incorectly fold when i catch scary (ie pair my door card or catch an overcard to his pair whether or not it is the A.) also, he will be more likely to lay down his unimproved pair at the end (if the hand gets that far) if you've been leading.
if reraised, i surrender the lead and take a card off. on fourth, assuming i don't improve, i am done if it is not heads up. if it is heads up, i may have some tricks left, but i still often fold.
if my A is my door card, i play it like i play split A's. even with 3 dead if my pair cards are live.
scott
If I am getting 4:1 I will call for 1 card, and would stay if no more of my suit shows or if the raiser has not matched his door card. The key is the ace. So, in case 1 I would definitely stay. Case 2, I might call depending on what the caller had showing (I would like more callers than 2, but I can bet for value with the ace). Case 3, probably fold if 3 of my suit are out.
Dead aces are a consideration. If I have an ace showing and catch an ace, I would probably win right away, so dead aces might keep people in to draw out on me if I do not hit a flush. I do not think a straight makes a big difference here.
(Oh yeah, Bill G posted this one here for me, as if I couldnt have done it. *smile*)
Ratso, I pretty much agree with you. The 4:1 would make me call either of the first 2 cases. Providing no more than 3 were out. Case 3 is a hard one to judge, because I think it calls for a little more knowledge of the starting/raising requirements of that raiser. But more than likely, I would pass if 2 or more were out in that sitution.
Hi Bill, There is an excellent section in 7CSFAP about these situations. There advice would be best but I'll post mine regardless.
1. Early position raise (2 SB), many callers to you
If more than 2 of my suit are dead I would throw the hand away. The flush would be my "primary" hand. I would just call the bring in if less than 2 of my suit were out and an ace were dead. Also, if I had another overcard to the raisers doorcard, and my cards were live, I would reraise. You can accomplish a couple of things here. a)You can thin the field, not a bad situation as now pairing your overcards can win the pot. b)if everyone calls the raise, you don't mind that either because the pot is giving you odds to chase your flush. If you catch a flush card on 4th street opponents don't necessarily put you on a flush draw. and c)you may win the pot on a later street if you catch scare cards, but don't actually help your hand or draw.
2. Early or mid position raise, 1 or 2 callers
I would throw my hand away if 2 or more of my suit were dead and my cards weren't live. Again I like a raise here if I have two overcards, and they are live, to the raisers doorcard, for the same reasons above. With a thinned field, the overcards increase in importance. You can win the pot without connecting to a flush.
3. No one in yet, raise to your immediate right.
If my cards were live, less than 2 of my suit and aces were live, I would play for a raise. Occasionally I would reraise myself, if my door card were the ace or higher than his doorcard. Try and make the hand heads up.
There are so many different scenarios. There are certain situations where you trade off live vs. dead. Vs multiple opponents, I'll play the flush draw more often if my suit is live but my cards are semi dead. Against few opponents the opposite is true.
Although always important, it helps immensely to know your opponents. Especially in the 2nd and 3rd scenarios, if you can outplay, manuever, or have control of your opponents, your starting requirements can be slightly looser. This is because you can represent something other than a flush draw and manipulate opponents into incorrectly folding.
Any and all comments welcome.
John G.
with the ace you are only about 3 to 2 dog against another pair. multiway your hand plays well against any number of people even with a few dead cards. the dead flush cards dont hurt much when you have the ace overcard. if my hand were live no amount of raising is going to drive me out. most of the time id take one off on 4th street as well. and maybe 5th depending on the board. this is a very good hand in 7 stud.
Ray, am I too conservative? I am not real comfortable against 4-5 callers with 3 of my suit out. I figure I must be up against at least 1-2 high pair (poss aces) or trips. Should I risk 3 bets in a 10-20 game?
three of your suit is getting tight, but the ace is what makes your hand playable here as long as you dont think someone else has aces. the ace is a powerful card in 7 stud. i routinely chuck small flush cards with 3 out and no other things working. why would you think you are up against trips on 3rd street or aces. be bold in poker.
With 4-5 callers in an 8 handed 10-20 game, my experience has almost always been that people who cold call 2 or 3 bets have either aces, trips (esp if they re-raise) or high card drawing hands. It seems foolish for someone with a small/medium pair and mid (not ace) kicker to stay around in a 10-20 game. I see gut shot straight draws and low pairs hang around in 1-5 limits. I always felt that to stay in with 4-5 players, I would like a good 2-way hand........hmmmmm.....I guess 3 to a flush and an ace fits the bill, but still the 3 of suit out troubles me. Is the lone ace that strong in a 4-5 caller hand? Can I expect some of the callers might just look at 1 card and fold if they do not match up? I'll re-read some more in the greenbook.