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QJT2 is nothing but a 3 legged pony. It won't carry you very far. However, it is playable in the small blind in a typical low limit Paradise game with a minimum of 4 callers. I'd throw it away any other time for a full bet. Once again, if the flop doesn't run over you with A-K or 8-9 you probably should get out immediately.
This is not even a close call. Muck without a second thought. It's a three legged dog with no real way to make the nuts without a str8 or top full.
.
Greetings,
I was playing 7card stud High LOw Split w/Declare, in a home game today and a question came regarding the rules.
Here's the question: Suppose Player A declares high (and has a full house), Player B declares low (and has a smooth 7), and Player C declares both ways (and has a wheel).
Who gets the pot? WHat is the rationale?
I argued Player A shouldl get all, as player B had his low beat, but all the people insisted Player C forfeited any claim to the pot by "misdeclaring." So player A and B should split...
What are the "official" rules, and what is the rationale? Thanks alot!
When I played this game, the rule was you can't back in so player b was out, and you have to win both ends (no ties) so c was out and A wins it all. There was also an option for a player who hears both others declare both ways and that was "no call for it all". if the 2-way declarers each had one end, the third player won automatically. There was no betting after the declare, which was positional. Last bettor or raiser declares first. Helluva game.
When one is the bring-in in 7cs, when do you bring it it for a full bet instead of a half-bet? I tend to think never, as it gives away too much information about my hand. A little while ago I had a player on my right who would bring it in for a full bet with any pair and a half bet without one and each time I raised to pound his teeny pairs heads up with my only very slightly higher pairs.
I suppose I could come up with a certain game made up of a certain mix of players in which I might come in with a raise now and again, but I have yet to be convinced that this is a good habit.
Depends on my current image, my hand, the composition of the table, and the location of any Aces in relation to my hand. No, I'm not necessarily going to bring it in for a full bet with, say, a pair of 5s, or even with a medium split pair. But if I have a buried pair of Queens, a big 3-flush, or a big 3-straight, I "might" bring it in for a full bet -- if I feel I'll either get the action (or lack thereof), and not cutoff by an overcard who might also raise. Just as in any poker situation, the mathematically "sound" play is not necessarily the tactically correct play, and your feel for the table makeup and anticipated action should dictate when to make this play.
I was playing in an interesting 10-20 7CS game at Foxwoods on Saturday. There has been a lot of raising and reraising on third street to try and get heads up with a brutal player who called virtually every raise with anything but was beginning to fold to reraises. This hand came up during the course of the day and I am looking for others opinions.
The low card 3c to my immediate right (#2) brings it in for 10. This is the brutal player I spoke of and he has been doing this all day with any 3 cards. I (#3) call with Kd 3d, Jd. The player to my immediate left (#4)calls with a 10s. #5 and #6 fold. #7 with the Kc raises, #8 with the Kh reraises, #2 folds, I call as does #4 and #7. My logic was that both #7 and #8 were decent players and wanted to try and get #2 heads up or 3 way for all his dead money. Also only one of those players could have a pair of kings, and at worst I'm facing a pair of aces. I also know that I should get paid off until the end if I make my hand. My diamonds are completely live.
Fourth Street brings me the Qd, #4 the 8s, #7 the Jc, and #8 the Jh
me Kd3d,JdQd #4 XX, 10s,8s #7 XX, Kc,Jc #8 XX, Kh,Jh
#7 bets the $10, #8 raises to $20, I call, #4 calls, #7 makes it $30, and #8 caps it at $40. I don't know what the #7 or # 8 has. I figure if either has two pair they are completely dead, buried Aces, flush draws, or #4 could be rolled up. I call the extra $20 as do #4 and #7.
Fifth street brings me the perfect card, Ad, #4 catches the Ac, #7 catches the 2h, and #8 cathces the 4h, possibly making his flush.
me Kd3d,JdQd,Ad #4 XX, 10s,8s,Ac #7 XX, Kc,Jc,2h #8 XX, Kh,Jh,4h
I check with the intention of raising. All the betting has been coming from the 7 and 8 seats and think they will bet especially since I've shown weakness and passiveness through the hand. This is Question 1. Was this a mistake? Would you bet out, hoping to be raised? You could gain 3 bets. I don't fear a free card that much due to the strength of my flush and no pairs on board, but is it better to bet out because the pot is so big that you just as soon try and win now? All players check behind me. Did they fear my scary board?
Sixth street, I catch the 6c, #4 catches the 5c, #7 catches the 4d, and #8 catches the 9s.
me Kd3d,JdQd,Ad,6c #4 XX, 10s,8s,Ac,5c #7 XX, Kc,Jc,2h,4d #8 XX, Kh,Jh,4h,9s
I bet, #4 calls, #7 folds, and # 8 raises. I only call as does #4. Question 2.. How bad a play is not raisng here? I have the best hand unless #8 has exactly Ah,Qh in the hole. Possible the way the hand has been played. Although the pot is huge, by not raising I give #4 a cheap draw to whatever he is drawing to. I think I gain though because #8 will over call on the end if I bet out and possibly raise and I can 3 bet him. Unless #4 catches, I would expect him to fold.
Seventh street brings me the answer to #8, Ah. #8 can't beat me with his flush?!?. I bet, #4 raises, #8 folds, I think for a moment and reraise. I didn't think he was rolled up from the beginning but wasn't certain. I thought it was more likely that he made his flush, with AKs. Like me, he has to assume that one of the other players had the "case" king so my flush must be AQd high. Was this a mistake in my thinking? It would also justify his calls on 3rd and 4th street with an AK flush draw. Unfortunately The more I thought of it, it was as likely for him to have played rolled up 10s the same way. The only consolation I had was that I think he would have 3 bet 3rd street after the 2 kings raised and reraised. He doesn't know that the kings were dead and the possibility of Aces existed against him. He reraised, I knew I was in serious trouble, I called, the pot was way too large not to call here, and turns over 5's full of aces. He had started with A5s in the hole.
Notwithstanding the result, how was the hand played by me and/or my opponents.
John Gaspar
John,
I think your fifth street play was incorrect. A bet here could easily have been seen as a semibluff by observant opponents, or not seen at all by the loose players. I could have been raised; you could have reraised. Either way, with a made flush here a bet seems to make sense.
As Ray commented, I am impressed with your card memory. Next time your at Foxwoods, could you wear some ID so I'll know either to avoid your table or sit on your left.
Ashley
Win the big pots immediately. Sklansky said something like that in one of his earlier books, and your hand is the poster child for that theory. You likely lost it by failing to bet and/or raise from 5th street on (actually, I might've been raising sooner, but that's another topic).
Need help. What is partially live cards. if you hold 2T's & Q If one t & one Q are out, is your hand dead if either the other hand holding the T OR Q bets? If the Q bets should you fold? If both the other hands fold are you still live or should you fold. If three of you cards are out are you dead? When is you hand dead? thank you ron
Ron, If a Queen and a Ten are out and you hold a pair of one and one of the other then your cards are not completely dead; but playing is surely folly. If the Queen bets the player betting is representing two Queens. What would you be in for with two tens and one ten out, the case Queen?
If I'm holding a pair and one of my pair cards is out I am VERY cautious. If I think I can steal the antes I might bet, but if someone has bet before me I'm out of there, always. Now if the ten bet and I had a pair of Queens with a ten kicker I would RAISE to go heads up with this guy who is clearly the dog.
Ashley
Thank you, Are you saying that If your high pr is out, fold, and stay for call only if your other card is out.
I would fold if my other card bets, thinking that they have a pr.
So would you fold if you saw two of your cards out or would you call a unraised pot in late postion?
I read in THE Books about live cards and dead cards but they don't define it very clearly.
Thank you for your help Ron
Low limit (5-10) 7CS. I show an Ace and have J,10 rainbow. All overcards to the board. Bring in to my left. I suppose they anticipate my raise. Only 1 caller + the bring in. I raise to $10. Bring in folds, #6 calls with a 10 on board. He is quite drunk and orders another Baily's and coffee. The other players think the guy is a loud asshole, and he is.
3rd st: I get a Qh; he gets a baby (4 or 5, I forget)
I bet $10; he calls.
4th st: I get a 9h; he gets nothing threatening. I bet $20; he calls.
5th st: I get another heart (small one). He gets a blank. I bet $20; he calls. I begin to wonder here.
6th st: We both get blanks. I check (a mistake??). He checks.
River: I have not improved, not even a pair. I hold 1 of his cards. My board looks like a big pair. He shows nothing. I check the river figuring he will to and will win with a small pair. I do not think he will fold if I bet. He bets $20. I figure he has a small pair and is too drunk to realize I have represented a big pair or he may have had a pocket small pair and caught a 2nd pair. I fold saving a bet, and he shows absolutely nothing. He was beat on the board. I would have won. The table is shocked and discussion pursues. The consensus was that I should have called. Only the dealer agreed with my move. His comment was (1) he was not going out and (2) any pair would beat me.
Comments appreciated
Uh Paul: I think ratso mixed up his streets here.
Ratso: You said you had A,T, J rainbow, that's on 3rd streets.
4th street: Qh
5th: 9h
6th: small heart
river: blank
They both checked the river. He could not have bet after that (Paul said that he should have bet after the drunk checked).
Anyway...
What I would have asked myself is whether this guy was too drunk to realize you had a strong board and that he was maybe drawing dead. Then I would not have pushed as hard as you did. At least on 6th street. Since you had nothing. If you tought that he was still aware and capable of folding, you played it fine. I would have bet the river tho. This guy has not shown any strenght the whole hand and it is unlikely he will raise you. Therefore, Bet, he might fold or you might even win if this guy is as drunk or stupid as you say and he calls. If not you can expect him to bet with nothing(as he did) of with a weak hand like a pair. Since you have nothing, you can't really call here, unless you get a good read of your opponent and you think he's on a bluff.
That's my take on it...
theprince00
"I would of bet the river when he checked on 6th street"
I don't know what your saying Robert Parish Prince, but I ment to bet the river after the drunk checked sixth street.
D&C
This is a common dilemna in loose passive games. You just have to recognize that there are some people you can't, or are unlikely to, bluff. I would have bet my high cards in that situation. You succeeded in getting heads up. You even got heads up against a weaker, a bonus although unbeknowst to you. As your board got nastier and nastier, you continued to bet. You could have just check and folded into his bet or called his bluff bet on fourth street. Instead, you decided to bet the scare cards, a reasonable play against someone capable of folding.
I don't think the sixth street check was mistake. I think you correctly reasoned the drunk would call and you had nothing. On the river, however, you have to look at the pot. You folded without a pair had he had even less. It happens. You correctly reasoned that he probably made at least a pair. However, if you wanted to bluff, you could have if the drunk was the type of player, like many loose passive players, who will call all the way to the river and then fold. You probably should have at least called, but I understand why you didn't.
Just chalk this up to an aberation. Next time, maybe, you won't bluff a drunk.
Next time I'll get drunk and bluff
I dont agree that the check on 6 showed weaknes in this particular situation. The drunk wouldn't know weakness,and he obviously wasn't paying attention. A bluff bet by you on the river also wouldn't work since if the guy bet on the end as a drunk I wouldn't put him on a bluff, and if you did put him on a bluff you'd likely call. He didnt bluff, he merely bet as a drunk, or at least thats one way to look at it. A bluff assumes that he is analyzing the hand so that he thinks it is worthwhile, which is probably not what happened.
It is a difficult situation, but I bet that if you did the same thing 10 times, 9 times you'd be right to fold. You showed enough power during the hand that if he was paying attention he would think that you would at least call a bet on the end. His bet is therefore not properly interpreted as a bluff.
It is a very difficult assessment,and second guessing is obviously easy due to how it played out. I think you did the right thing in folding based upon what you have said here. Anyone who says that they knew based on his play that he didnt even have a pair is a lot better card reader than I am. It is one thing to read your opponent for a bluff, it is another to think that he would bluff on the end without even a pair againsta a good player who has overcards and who has been betting throughout.
I also think the check is good idea on 6 since it is not likely that he would fold, and at least you bought a free card.
I am sure that most posts will disagree with us, and that is the beauty of poker.
I think that if I did it 10 times, I would be right 9 of them too. This dude was not folding unless someone said to him, "You are beat on board!".
I do not think he knew what he was doing. Betting or calling on 7th street would have been correct only because I would have been at showdown and won.
I think it is an exception and I did the right thing here. That is the 1st time that has happened to me that I know of.
S.T. Hey, if you're gonna be greedy, you pay the price and have to realize that people are going to punish you for it.... I say it comes with the territory and is not any more unfair than the pig scooping the whole pot....
No more unfair than the wheel mercilessly raising the 8-6 and only going lock low....
I agree...the 8-6 low should be applauded for not only winning money with a hand that can't win in either direction, but maximizing it. The pig can fold if he is getting jammed.
I'm starting to play more Omaha 8 or better, finding it a nice change of pace from 15-30 hold 'em.
5-10 with a kill, in effect for this hand. I'm in middle position with A-9S, A-9. Two players limp, I call the $10, two more callers. Little blind calls, he played a questionable hand about 10 minutes prior which he (luckily) got 1/2 a pot with.
Flop comes 10-10-9c, everyone checks to me, I bet. little blind calls, all else fold.
turn is a Q (offsuit), LB checks, I bet $20. LB raises. I call.
river is a rag. He bets, I call. He shows 10-9.
I'm not sure about this one. Did I play too aggressive on the turn? should I have folded after he bets the river? If I had reason to believe he was a real strong player, I'd have folded on the end (probably). Does the Q make it too probable that I can't win at the end?
Thanks!!
Joe
Looks like lb had a good read on you and knew you would bet the turn so he could check raise. I would have suspected the Q-10 for a better full house after the check raise. I still would have called heads up on the river like you did. If the field had been larger a fold probably would have been in order.
All In - What you do depends on who you're playing.
There are seven of you seeing the flop. Sounds like my normal opponents. You have a full house on the flop, but with an underpair. Against my normal opponents a full house with an underpair is not usually a good hand.
I like your bet after the flop, to see where you stand.
When you get called, you should suspect that your opponent has a ten. If so, your opponent will probably see you all the way to the river hoping to catch a boat (or quads).
One could show that if all hands are played to the end, a full house with an underpair in O/8, with seven players seeing the flop, is a dog. In other words, it loses more often than it wins.
However, against one opponent, of course, you are a favorite. You might tentatively put your opponent on 10-X-X-X when he/she calls your flop bet. If that is your opponent's hand, he/she has 10 outs to beat you.
I think you have to make your opponent pay to draw.
However, there's not nearly as much bluffing in Omaha/8 as in Texas hold 'em. When you get check-raised, your wisest response would be to fold. I know that goes against the grain, but there it is. Give it up and save the forty dollars.
Buzz
unless your opponents a fool he has at least a ten. so when you get raised what do you do. if he would raise with only trips play on if not fold. but what does he likely have. if he started with a ten he probably is playing high so he has other high cards as well. maybe a queen ,9 king or one of the other aces. not much you can beat so maybe you shouldn ot have bet on the queen card and hoped for a bluff catcher on the river. i would have checked and 4th and maybe called on the river. this game is not holdem and a small full house stinks.
Thanks to everyone who responded. I had a feeling I played it too "fast".
The interesting thing about Omaha 8 is that, with weak players who draw to the non-nuts, I don't see how you could lose, but with tough players, who only draw to the nuts, it looks like it would be difficult to win much of anything. Any thoughts?
Joe
The interesting thing about Omaha 8 is that, with weak players who draw to the non-nuts, I don't see how you could lose, but with tough players, who only draw to the nuts, it looks like it would be difficult to win much of anything. Any thoughts?
"with weak players...........I don't see how you could lose, but with tough players..........it looks like it would be difficult to win much of anything."
Isn't that statement (without the references to "the non-nuts" and "the nuts") true of any poker game?
Buzz
I was walking through a casino past the poker tables and saw a game on the board, 7 Card Stud 2-6,6. I usually play structured games but I have played some spread games, but I have never seen the ,6 listed before. Does anyone know what that means?
ask the floorman. but maybe that was the table # or who knows.
If this was at the Soaring Eagle, the game is played with no ante and a $2 bring-in. 3rd and 4th street are spread limit $2-$6. After fifth street bets are in $6 increments. If this wasn't at the Soaring Eagle, it might be played some other way.
I am not an omaha player, just happened to be at a home game where the game was called. Here is the hand, let me know what you think. There is only one blind. by the way Sorry if my format sucks, I am a lousy poster.
the blind is totally new loose/passive player with know understanding of omaha at all.
Seat 1: A loose/aggressive player raises with (Q-Q-9-10) doubly suited. Seat 2:a tight/aggressive player cold calls with (A-2-J-10) ME: I hold (As-2s-3-4)and make it three bets. Seat 4: The player behind me caps it with (Ac-2c-5-5) Everyone including the blind calls the cap.
The flop comes 6-7-8 rainbow. One of my suit.
Seat one bets, seat two calls, I raise. My thinking here is that because there are some weak players at the table an probably only one other A-2, and I am getting value five handed with the uncounterfeitable nut low. Also, and A or 2 with likely give me the entire low pot. Seat 4: raises. Seat 1: caps all call.
The turn is a 9. giving me four to the nut flush.
Seat 1: checks. Seat 2: bets with the double nuts. Me: I raise think that I now have high value and the pot is still five handed. The 2 of my suit probably gives me the entire pot. Seat 4: calls Seat 1: makes an excellent fold. Seat 2: reraise blind folds rest call.
The river is an offsuit 4.
Seat 2 checks. (A horrible mistake I think) I check Seat 4 ponder and raises and the river gets capped.
I get a sixth of the pot.
Could I ever have released this hand? Clearly seat 4 was way out of line, but how about my play?
Here is a hand that actually happened to me a few days ago.
I had 2h 3h 9h 9d in the blind. There were 8 people in this pot but no raise b4 the flop.
Flop came down As 4c 5s. I flopped a wheel (remember though, this was Omaha High. I bet out with the nuts - 4 callers, raise, 2 fold. I reraise, 1 drops, raiser calls. No we are 5 handed.
Turn is the 10c. I thought very carefully about this turn card - it was the single worst card in the deck for me. Why? Because I still had the nuts, but I was left with no possible way to win the hand (barring a miracle.)
Any A, T, 2 or 3 pairs the board. Any black card brings a flush. Any 6, 7, or 8 makes a higher straight possible. Any K, Q, or J makes a broadway straight possible. The only 2 safe cards in the deck were the red nines, and they were both in my hand!
Because of my quick mental arithmetic, I was able to make the decision to check and fold. Sure enough, the board paired and a full house won the hand.
-SmoothB-
SmoothB,
I would not of bet out with this hand or raised or anything I would of checked and got out if anyone bet.
Paul
Betting the flop was fine, but you shouldn't have re-raised. Check-call the turn.
Your fold on the turn was probably not correct. Yes, just about any card puts a better possible hand on the board, but with four people in the pot chances are that many of these hands will not be out there. For instance, if someone was in there with a 67, then a red 6 or 7 still saves you the pot. A red KQJ9 may save you the pot. A full house is not necessarily out there if the board pairs. If someone called with top 2, then the board can pair on a ten or a 2 and you're safe. A club might even win for you.
If you knew you were already splitting the pot with the same straight it would be an easy fold. But on this flop, a late position player will raise with all kinds of hands. Top 2, a set, a flush draw, etc.
too many bets out there, ill go with Dan on this one for sure. id call on 4th and decide on the river by the action i see.
Actually, with a flop of A-4-5 and a turn of 10, a 2 or 3 does not pair the board as originally stated ("any A, T, 2 or 3 pairs the board"), but rather makes a straight 6 possible. A 4 or 5 would pair the board. Still a correct laydown.
After buying and running the OH program on Wilson!!! Guess what Dan & Z are correct for this hand 2h3h9h9d flopping As4c5s and Turn 10c. For $80 it was worth it to me.
paul
How does a hand like mine play preflop against what I know is at least one other A-2?
AAQT single suited, 6 callers.
Flop is KT2 rainbow, one of my suit. One bet, 3 players (I am last caller)
Turn is a suited J (not my suit). Strong Guy in 1st position bets, Unknown between us trances then calls.
I have Broadway but no redraws. I put Strong Guy on Broadway too, and since I don't have the suited ace, he probably does. Unknown is probably a set, but could be 2 pair. I raised, Strong Guy 3 bet, and Unknown called both raises. Happy ending for me, the river was a blank, and Strong Guy and I split with Broadway. He did have the nut flush redraw as I suspected.
Odds seem to say it's best to raise the turn if Unknown is on 2 pair, but call if he is on a set. Raising gives Unknown a chance to make a mistake on a set. I'm not sure of the best play. Any suggestions?
Unknown between us trances then calls.
What do you think, counting his outs or petit mal?
Odds seem to say it's best to raise the turn if Unknown is on 2 pair, but call if he is on a set.
Better for you if Unknown is on two pair, but I think the odds are in your favor either way.
Raising gives Unknown a chance to make a mistake on a set.
And besides, the odds are in your favor if Unknown has a set and is drawing for a full house.
I'm not sure of the best play. Any suggestions?
I think you made it, because you're not sure that anyone else has the broadway, and, if nobody else does, you're the favorite.
However, what if Unknown was also on a broadway straight and, in addition, had a redraw for a full house? What if trance was in consideration of a raise which was not made because Unknown wanted to keep you in the pot? Or....what if Strong Guy (who already has you tied) hits his flush redraw?
Buzz
OM8--another "self_answered" opinion wanted:
If deemed worthy, I would appreciate a few comments on the following situation which many OM8 players encounter in the heat of the action. The secnario is:
You consider yourself an OM8 expert in a relativly good nine handed game -- you honestly feel that there are only two players are on a par with you and the other six players are average or below average.Also a few of the average players like to cap the pot. In late position, you are delt a very good hand, for example: As, 2s, 4c, and Kh. In addition to the blinds, there are four callers. You raise. The Little Blind folds and you get five callers. "CASE A" The flop is:
6s, 10c, and Jd.
THe Big Blind bets and is raised ahead of you. Myself, I would always call the raise since I have a nut straight draw, a back door flush draw, and a runner-runner low draw. Now consider "CASE B" where the flop is:
6s, 10c, and Jc.
Then I would have a problem, especially if the pot was bet and raised ahead of me after the flop. My nut straight draw is now almost worthless and it will probably cost a lot to go to the river. My best judgement would be to fold.
What would you do?
I don't think you have the right odds to call a raise in either senario.
Fred - Guess it took me a little longer than you to figure it. Or maybe you knew already.
Buzz
I wouldn't call in either scenerio, A) gut shots and runners, not worth it, B) I agree, no way, the value is even worse.
Carl - I'm not an OM8 expert. Just a student (and player) of the game.
Your example hand is interesting to me because I have wondered what to do in situations similar to the one you have described. Up to now I have folded such hands after such flops - a la Ray Zee’s advice somewhere in his book.
Before considering what to do after the flop, note that I probably would not raise with your example hand, pre-flop. But that’s a whole other topic for discussion.
The difference between your case A and case B is one out, the queen of clubs - not really much of a difference. Let’s see how much of an edge you have (or don’t have) in case A. Then case B would be slightly worse for you.
It’s hard for me to imagine one of my normal opponents making a post-flop raise for case A. Aren't you playing your opponents for fools if you don't put them on some kind of reasonable hand for their bets and raises? How does it work out for you when they're not fools? (Rhetorical questions).
I would have to put the big blind on KQXX or JJXX (with XX having some runner-runner possibilities) for his/her (out of position) bet. What does that leave for the raiser? (Thinking while I write here),
All right, let's put the big blind on Kc-Qd-3h-Ac and let's put the raiser on Js-Jc-Ad-2d. If so,
129 combos get you one quarter 6 combos get you one third 96 combos get you one half 435 combos get you nothing
The above was figured without considering your back door flush chances. Add 19.7 wholes for the back door flush.
19.7 + 129/4 + 6/3 + 96/2 = 102
660/102 = 6.5
Your combined chance of winning the pot is about 1 out of 6.5.
The odds of losing are 5.5 to 1. Is there five and a half times as much in the pot as it will cost you to call the double bet? I don’t think so. And implied odds won’t make up the difference.
My conclusion is that holding A24K (single suited ace), you should probably fold to a flop of JT6 (rainbow), unless there are a minimum of maybe four callers ahead of you and unless there is no raise.
Basically, you started with a nice hand but missed the flop, but maybe can still draw if it’s cheap enough to do so and if there are enough other players contributing at this point. Here, I would give the raiser credit for knocking me out of the hand by making the odds too unfavorable for me to call.
Going through hands like this while sitting at home helps me, because I can’t do the calculations in my head while sitting at a casino table. (I would never get to 102 out of 660 at the casino table. It took me over an hour using a full deck of cards, some chips, and a computer to get there). I need to have an idea of what to do ahead of time. Hope this helps you too.
Buzz
What you did to analyse this hand will make you a much better player at the table. The value of this kind of study has been pointed out in previous posts, I'm sure more than once.
Incidentally, I like the pre-flop raise. It's an excellent low, with good sweep potential, and the AK will win the high side by itself sometimes. In late position, with that many callers ahead of you, a raise is going to promote a big pot, and the hand plays well in a many-player pot. I don't know how "late" the late position was, but a raise here may have the added bonus of buying the button.
I think you are way overgenerous to the first bettor and raiser. I might put the first bettor on 2 pair, or a straight draw, and the raiser on a set, but why should you assume they have A2 or A3 to go with it? The JJ could easily be KQJJ, or many other high-only hands.
I think you analysis of when to call is corret. You can draw to it with no raise on the flop.
Thanks for your generous responses....
Fred -
"I think you are way overgenerous to the first bettor and raiser. I might put the first bettor on 2 pair, or a straight draw, and the raiser on a set, but why should you assume they have A2 or A3 to go with it? The JJ could easily be KQJJ, or many other high-only hands.
Maybe so. Let’s refigure it.
There are 12.5 small bets in the pot pre-flop. Post flop there are 3 bets so far, and probably the big blind will call, making it 4 more bets in the pot, a total of 16.5 small bets. If it only costs you 2 small bets to call, that is, if the big blind does not re-raise, then you’re getting 8.25 to 1 for your call after the flop.
Assuming you call and the original bettor does not re-raise, there are 18.5 small bets in the pot. Let’s also assume there will be one big bet after the turn that you will call. (You will quietly fold if the board pairs or if you miss your hand on the river.) If you combine your two small bet call after the flop with your one big bet call after the turn, then you are getting 20.25 to 4 or about 5 to 1 for your calls after the flop and after the turn.
If you hit your hand on the river, let’s assume you can get one more big bet out of someone (add to implied odds). If so, then you are getting 22.25 to 4 or about 5.5 to 1 for calling on the flop and the turn. Thus you need at least 1 chance in 5.5 to justify continuing after the flop. ----- Even though you have A24K, you can’t assume that you are going to win the low end of all the hands that end up with a low. Let’s at least give one of your opponents a low draw, say A3. Let’s assume the raiser is trying to isolate the blind after the flop. What can the raiser have? If we give the opener KQJJ, there is hardly anything left for the raiser. How about KcQhQs9c or KcKdQs9c for the opener and JsJcAd3d for the raiser? That will be giving your opponents decent hands for their bets.
If so, you will scoop 55 times and split 161 times (out of 666). Counting your splits as half victories, you will win the equivalent of 135.5 out of 666, if we give the opener KcQhQs9c and the raiser JsJcAd3d. 666/135.5 = 4.915 --- you have about 1 chance in 5 to win (which is better than the 1 chance in 5.5 you needed to call after the flop).
Note that if we give the raiser JsJcAd2d instead of JsJcAd3d, 666/116 = 5.74. You would have 1 chance in 5.7 to win (which is slightly worse than the 1 chance in 5.5 you needed to call after the flop).
Further note that if we gave the opener KcKdQs9c instead of KcQhQs9c, your chance of winning would improve. (There would be about twenty six more scoops for making the straight).
All things considered, I have changed my mind. Holding As2s4cKh, with a flop of JdTc6s, calling a double small bet after the flop with two opponents left after the flop (and after you and five opponents called two small bets before the flop) seems marginal - a close call. The greatest contribution to the value of the hand seems to come from the potential for making a runner-runner low (84 or 64), with an intermediate contribution for the nut straight potential (68 or 41.5), and with only a small contribution for the runner-runner nut flush potential (10). I would want (1) the runner-runner low draw, (2) the inside straight draw, and (3) the runner runner flush draw all going for me to play on after the flop.
Buzz
For a bet and a raise, I would fold against both flops.
If I didn't fold, I would have raised the flop rather than called, and just called the turn.
This gets to be a pretty tough to think about at the table. If you're only splitting the pot, even with your pair of tens you could be looking at as many as 16 losers. (Was your Queen or Ten of the flush suit?). You can see 8 cards and might be able to deduce 2 more. If you lose 16 out of 42 times, and split the pot 26 out of 42 times. Placing one bet in 42 trials, you will get less than 20 bets back out of 42 put in. In other words, even though you can elicit a mistake by an opponent with two-pair a player with a *good* set will not be making a mistake at the time each bet is called. The dead money already in the pot will compensate him for only having two opponents. You are actually giving away money by raising.
True, if Unknown has a set and calls, my raise costs money. I don't know how to balance this against the possibility of 2-pair calling, or inducing the set to fold to a reraise (which I am expecting), by Strong Guy.
I'm trying to get a good grip on stud 8, so thought I'd post a hand here and see what the experts think.
$2/$4 on Paradise.
3rd St: I'm the bring-in with Ah7c/2c. As folds, Jh raises, 5c, 9c and 8h fold, and 3s calls. I call. Should I have dropped - or reraised? I like to play an ace aggressively against a high hand, but preferably with the A showing and when I'm the aggressor.
4th: Jh7h bets and 3sTc folds. I have Ah7c/2c5d and raise; is the raise ok here against his board?
5th: I catch the 2h and bet. My opponent calls with XXJh7hAd.
6th: I bet with Ah7c/2c5d2h4c and opp calls with XXJh7hAd4h.
7th; I get lucky and catch the 2d, bet and get called by two pair of J's and 7's which my opponent had on 4th.
I caught nicely on the river to scoop, but how would you guys have played differently. Thanks, Graham
Not bad. 1)I might have reraised on 3rd, to try to knock out the 3 or the J
2) DEFINATELY reraise that J7h on 4th street.
IMHO, The JJ77 should probably have reraised your raise on 4th(you don't have him beat yet, probably) and then made some decisions when you paired up deuces.
3) 7th street wasn't really luck- you had the only low draw, got to freeroll for the high end.
4) Only other thing you could try, if opponent aggressive enough, was checkraise on 5th. Probably not worth the effort, but you might suck him in....
YOU GOT TO REMEMBER you got to make your low on 5th street to free-roll the high hand.... all you had was a one way low hand ......the idea or theory is to arrive at 4th street with "4" babies ... with staight potential/ and or/ flush. GRAHAM, you save more money in the long run when you release a one-way low hand that pairs on 5th street... especially heads-up patience and hand selection and the art of being able to read your opponents board to know exactly what he has and keeping track of the "babies" on the other boards is a must!!! in determining when to continue on future steets. RAY ZEE has a book on "high-low split8" I RECOMMEND YOU TO READ IT.
PATIENCE AND WAITING FOR 3 LOW CARDS IS A MUST 7'S/8'S/9'S/10'S/ JACK'S/ QUEEN'S/ KING'S/ ARE losers in this in the long run... unless rolled-up.........................
Mr stick,
It's not a one way hand when I hold an A. I'd gladly take my 72A heads-up against a pair of J's, as long as low cards and A's are live (although one of the other A's was dead in this case). You're right about 5th st not looking too good for me; which is why a 3rd st reraise might have been in order.
G
I think you played the hand correctly. Your opponent didn't, though.
Here's my opinion littleor no ante assumed:
"3rd St: I'm the bring-in with Ah7c/2c. As folds, Jh raises, 5c, 9c and 8h fold, and 3s calls. I call".
I would call the bet with a duce showing. You have essentially a one-way hand here with 2 of your suit and one ace out. Raising here is not the correct thing in most cases low limit. If you had an Ace showing it could possibly be the correct thing as a bluff or semi bluff, but you probably will get called by the Jack in low limit.
"4th: Jh7h bets and 3sTc folds. I have Ah7c/2c5d and raise; is the raise ok here against his board?"
Head to head with 1 overcard is risky. You are banking on getting 1 of the remaining 2 Aces. Your straight and flush are long shots. I would have folded in most games if I think I am against Jacks and not much money in the pot. If you continue to 5th street, you will probably have to stay unless he pairs his door card. I would not raise unless I knew I had control of him and think I could force him to fold. Many stay for the 4th low bet but will fold on 5th street with a larger bet or scare card.
"5th: I catch the 2h and bet. My opponent calls with XXJh7hAd."
You have duces and he caught your Ace. At this point you are in trouble. He has some overcards and there is 1 ace and 2 duces. You will need some luck. I would check call here in a low limit game. I would play differently in a 10/20. I probably would bet or check raise here representing trips. I do not expect him to raise or reraise as I bet into what appears to be Jacks or possibly 2 pr.
"6th: I bet with Ah7c/2c5d2h4c and opp calls with XXJh7hAd4h".
Why not?
"7th; I get lucky and catch the 2d, bet and get called by two pair of J's and 7's which my opponent had on 4th."
Yes, graham, you were lucky. Hard to criticize a winning hand, but the odds were not in your favor.
Ratso,
Respectfully, I disagree here. I think my mistake was not reraising on 3rd, as Easy E pointed out. Once I have the 4 low cards, including the A, on 4th, I'm driving hard. I should have scared the pants off him before that - or at least put serious doubt in his mind about whether he had the best hand - and possibly forced him off the pot early. That's mainly why I posted.
On 4th, I only need another non-pairing low, then I'm free-rolling for high, so I think this is a great situation to be in.
On 5th, you're definitely right; my measly pair's no good - at the moment - against his definite J's and overcards. But there's no point showing weakness; he will probably bet anyway if I check, knowing I'm on a low draw. This is precisely why I feel I should have reraised 3rd. An opponent with a high pair may have folded here under the circumstances (of course, if he has 2 pair, then he's not likely to go.)
G
oh shit, I did not catch the hi-low part. I thought it was high only
I think raising on 3rd is wrong. Most low limit players aren't going to make tough folds later, it is hard to make for you to make a good high hand, and there is no guarantee youll make a low. By calling on 3rd you close the action and you should fold if you catch a brick on 4th. IF you had a low hand w/ better high poetential then maybe you could raise ( 3s4s5c or something )but here I think calling on the 3rd is better than raising.
I don't know about how good it is to drive hard when you hyave 4 to a low on 4th heads up. You are almost only playing to get your money back (w/this low)unless you catch a miracle. However you will get at least your money back 80% of the time. (You are dreaming if you think he will fold, if you put in alot of action he'll in most situations call you down).
Agressive bet on 5th, maybe if you checkraise often w/your better hands here you could check hoping to get it checked through. You are a pretty big underdog for high, and you won't make a low I suspect 44% of the time. (you have seen 15 cards and 13 will make a low for you, so you won't make a low 24/37(24/36)= ~4/9).
The rest of the hand seems ok.
imho
I've noticed that a lot of higher limit games are a mix of games, not just hold'em or just stud, but a rotation of 3 games like omaha8, stud and hold'em. is this mainly because there are only a few people who are willing to play that high, but they all want to play different games, and these rotations allow them to all play?
I'm not sure why, I remember suggesting to a 10/20 holdem table that maybe we could play stud and stud/8, one of two people scoffed, and made some nasty comments about stud.
I think the mix games are interesting but I only get to play them in home games as 40/80 is a bit high for me.
I also think alot of people are good at only one game, and are uncomfortable playing many at the same time. I'm not sure why these HOSE/HORSE etc type games are only played at higher limit. I look forward to hearing a response.
Does anyone have any experience with 3-draw lowball? It is a rare form. It is played limit and pot-limit in Mississippi. Starting requirements? Strategy? It appears to be a luck game.
How do you play? Is it 5 card draw w/ 3 draws!?
Please explain!
3-draw lowball five card draw lowball. A wheel (A2345) is the best low. Action goes bet,then draw from 1 to 5 cards, bet,second draw,bet, third draw,final betting round then showdown. Supposedly a pot-limit game but I have seen 30-60 limit. Also 200$ spread limit. I was interested in hearing from experienced players but anyone's input is welcome. Is this just a lucky gambling game or what?
No poker game is devoid of skill, though this one sounds like it might have a higher variance. From your cursory explanation, it sounds like correct strategy is pretty close to: play really, really tight. I would guess most pots get taken down by a smooth 7 or better (at least in limit play). When you do get dealt a good hand people are going to just be paying and paying to try and suck out. Also, good draws will be stronger, as getting paint or pairing up after the draw will not hurt your hand.
Having a smooth draw to start with will be a greater advantage, as the extra betting rounds will give you an indication as to when you'll need to break your hand and draw to a better low.
Someone who's actually played this game might give a better explanation.
To 2+2 Website Operators:
If you are still interested to expend an otherwise growing volume of the visitors of your website, I like to suggest that you create/add under the Poker Forum separate open forums for Omaha/8, 7CS and 7CS/8.
I thinnk the added open forums specifically addressing each of the three stated games of poker will be much more educational for your website visitors and thereby would significantly increase contributions by interested parties.
Please give it some thought.
Thanks!
by making the forums too specific it would hinder creativity and talk of fishing and bears. thats my opinion and thanks for your input. im sorry as ive also been not seeing your posts so ill look for them. thanks.
Ray:
I must admit I primarily had you on my mind when suggesting additons of Omaha/8, 7CS/8 to a list of open forums so as to get more out of your brilliant poker skills. Frankly, I hate to see your poker genius being wasted in an otherwise pristine surroundings of NW Montana.
Thus, for the sake of the poker humanity, Rey, try to contribute more generously to the needy from your vast poker reportoire.
I just do not want to give up on you.
hey i created alot of the poker needy. why undo my work:-)
... the invincible ..............
I agree Badger. I always thought that Gary Carson was a bum too.
He's just jealous that we won't publish his God-awful, pile of cow dung poker book.
The above post was not written by David Sklansky. However, since Gary Carson is always accusing us of censorship, it is being left up.
.
HEY! Ray you can make him more needy buy suggesting he buy your book on HI-LO SPLIT 8...OMAHA 8...two games in one book...about a $35 dent in his paycheck
Greetings,
A freind of mine that the Hold'em game in atlantic city and Foxwoods aren't very good. While the stud games are very good.
How true is this!? Is it not worth it to play Hold'em at these places and to only play stud!?
I have played in the midwest for the last year, and am moving to the east coast.
ALl comments appreciated.
Conventional wisdom is that the stud games are better than the holdem games on the east coast. However, it is still easy to find good holdem games at the middle limits. I've found the $10-$20 (halfkill) holdem at Foxwoods and the $15-$30 at the Taj quite good, and I've seen 2 players split a pot both having Q7 in the $50-$100 at the Taj (not in a steal situation). In other words, don't worry too much. It might be a good opportunity to work on your stud game, but you can still play holdem.
Foxwoods has no high limit holdem though, whereas the stud games go up to $150-$300 I think and are supposedly good.
In AC, both Taj and Tropicana have 2-4, 3-6, 5-10 HE games all the time 24 hrs/day. Most times there is a 10/20 and 15/30 at the Trop on evenings and weekends. There is always a good 10/20 and 15/30 all the time at Taj. Weekends the Taj goes up to 60/120 and sometimes higher. Taj is no smoke and busier than Trop. Trop is friendler.
Stud at Trop has 15/30 all the time and 15/30 HiLo. Weekends have up to 100/200. the Taj has up to 300/600 on Saturday nights with some very good players.
Both places have Omaha. No 5-card stud and only occasioally a 10/20 or 15/30 Draw at the Trop. On some weekends like Labor Day, you'll see some Pot Limit and No Limit games.
Trop has daily Tournaments. see their web site
.... none of which really answered his question, ratso, informative and helpful as it was regardless...
At lower limits, it really depends, but I've found weaker play overall in stud than holdem (not that either is particularly strong)....
There is no correct answer. It is purely a matter of opinion. Now if he asked what is better; vanalla of chocolate, then I could have told him. Perhaps he might have asked, what is better New York City or Los Angeles, then it would be Easy E(h)?
I think one can objectively say whether one game or better than another. And also on average whether one locale has better games than another. I could draw comparisons between places I have played regularly, and some are definitely better than others.
It's not a matter of taste. Your win rate is largely dependent on the type of games you play in. And its not a matter of vanilla vs chocolate.
THIS IS TRUE for the most part.
P.S I have played both at the middle limits for quite sometime now. I think the 20-40 hold-em game is the one to be avoided (all the other games are just so much better, especially stud)
Good luck
My only experience is at Foxwoods. There are alot more stud games to choose from at 10-20 and 15-30. On a normal weekend you have a choice of 12 games combined.
Hold'em only has 2-4 of these limit games going on during the weekend. And 15-30 is usually the biggest hold'em game in the room.
There are plenty of bad players playing both games, but, for me, the stud games are more profitable.
John Gaspar
Thanks all for the responses. Ill be closer to Foxwoods than AC. I usually play 10/20 holdem now when I play.
I just asked because I haven't played stud in a long time, and have only played very low limit stud (1-5) and that was a while ago.
SOme of the bigger HE games are to be avoided!? Interesting, I wouldn't think they were *that* bad!
I think it is a matter of opinion whether one locale is better than another for any card game. Is a Ford better than a Chevy? Is a hundred dollars better than $10? It depends on if you owe someone it or it is owed to you. Is hot weather better than cold? Only those who have been to both locales can compare. best thing is to describe the locales and let the person decide for him/her self.
if you say:"It's not a matter of taste. Your win rate is largely dependent on the type of games you play in. And its not a matter of vanilla vs chocolate. "
Does that mean if I played once in LV and won $500 in 10 hrs that LV is better than LA, SF, AC, New England. To base a yes/no answer to a general question on little or no experience is erroneous. I think you may suffer from tunnel thinking.
The HE at FW can vary greatly from pretty solid to loose depending on the cast of characters present.
The 20-40 HE at Mohegan Sun 10 miles away is often fantastic. A couple weeks ago I actually got to play in a 10-WAY POT.
Other than that, if you play Stud you will have greater game selection in New England.
I am TRYING to play Omaha 8 pro at paradise poker. Can someone tell me if this is at all possible?? can anyone give me some pointers on which hands i should play and which hands i shouldent. Anything please..
John Doe (DOA),
You might want to try this book, if it's not in your budget Ray will work something out with you!!!!!!
"High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee"
FBOW
First of all, if you are trying to play "pro" and you don't even know which hands to play, by all means start in the play money or $2-4 games only. You require at least a couple hundred hours of education. And read Ray's book !!
Having said that ... of all the games I am interested in (7 stud, hold'em, and Omaha8), on Paradise I find a good game most often in Omaha8. It is getting harder, but I often find a game with over 50% of players seeing the flop; I rarely find that in hold'em or stud (4th St. for stud).
Dick
Dick: Do you really think that just because a higher percentage of players are seeing the flop in O8 than holdem, the games are better? Isn't it possible that, for instance, omaha has more playable starting hands? (I know Badger would disagree with this, and I mostly agree with him, but playing a bad hand in holdem may cost you more than playing a bad hand in O8, making the holdem mistake of more value to you even if O8 players make more mistakes)
Regardless, I find much larger postflop mistakes in the holdem games than the omaha games on Paradise. YMMV.
Do this!!
Look to the box on the left and click internet. See what everyone is saying about Paradise. You may want to choose Planet instead. Anyway, until you learn how to play, you should play the free games for a while. Also, watching the live games is very helpfull.
Another suggestion, read, read, read.
MA
How does my play look for this hand of Hi-Lo stud 8, particularly 3rd and 4th St.? Should I have been there at all...? It's the $2/$4 game on Paradise.
Dealt to thistle66 [ Ac ] Dealt to thistle66 [ 7d ] Dealt to gunslinger [ 8h ] Dealt to Slinky59 [ As ] Dealt to griff 30 [ Jc ] Dealt to roninbn [ 5d ] Dealt to thistle66 [ 7s ] Dealt to Moe Money [ 6h ] Dealt to Beers [ Tc ] Dealt to QofHrts64 [ 3d ] QofHrts64: Bring-in ($1) gunslinger: Fold Slinky59: Call ($1) griff 30: Fold roninbn : Fold thistle66: Call ($1) Moe Money: Fold Beers : Raise ($2) QofHrts64: Call ($1) Slinky59: Call ($1) thistle66: Call ($1) Dealt to Slinky59 [ 9d ] Dealt to thistle66 [ Qc ] Dealt to Beers [ 4d ] Dealt to QofHrts64 [ 9s ] Slinky59: Check thistle66: Check Beers : Bet ($2) QofHrts64: Call ($2) Slinky59: Call ($2) thistle66: Call ($2) Dealt to Slinky59 [ 4h ] Dealt to thistle66 [ 5c ] Dealt to Beers [ 8c ] Dealt to QofHrts64 [ Ks ] Slinky59: Check thistle66: Check Beers : Bet ($4) QofHrts64: Fold Slinky59: Call ($4) thistle66: Call ($4) Dealt to Slinky59 [ Jd ] Dealt to thistle66 [ Ad ] Dealt to Beers [ 4s ] Beers : Bet ($4) Slinky59: Fold thistle66: Raise ($8) Beers : Call ($4) Dealt to thistle66 [ 7c ] Beers : Check thistle66: Bet ($4) Beers : Call ($4)
If you want people to take the time to give you advice, perhaps you could take the time to format your post. Better yet, take five minutes and type it in legibly yourself.
That said, you certainly have a playing hand on 3rd street. Your goal throughout the hand should be to get the pot heads up so you can suck out with two small pair. Raise or check-raise accordingly, even if you know you're chasing.
...didn't look like that when I pasted it in. Guess I'll have to type them out the long way.
The problem is that the posting mechanism doesn't recognize a single line break; it only looks for a double line break. I think there's a way around this, but I haven't figured it out.
If you want a line break, put <br> at the end of each line.
Found
that
on
a
Rice
webpage
~DjTj
So *you're* the guy who kept outdrawing me today.
- Andrew
Glad to be of service, Andrew.
G
Playing 2-4 O8 ten players suits don't matter. I'm in seat 4 seat 10 has the button. Dealt 234xo, 5 players in no raising. Flop comes A46. 1&2 check 3 bets, I raise, all drop except seat 7 raises, seat 3 raises, and I cap. Turn is A46(9) goes around again capped. River A469(3). Seat 3 bets I call 7 drops. Seat 3 has 235x for both high and low hand.
Tell me how I should of played this differently.
Paul
Not much you could have done differently. That's just Omaha. I assume you put in one of the raises on the turn. All that betting on the flop should have told you that you were going to be at least quartered on the low. With only 3 players left in the hand I think I would not raise the turn.
ten handed game 234x is not a hand worth coming in for the original bet in early position and probably not in any position in most ten handed games. when down to 3 players and you can only win one way that is the time to be careful as you are laying 2 to one.
"3-3-4-6" According to the Zeeman on page 214 "In general there are few starting hands that you should play where all four cards are not closely interweaved. Unless you hold an ace-deuce, which does not always require all four cards working together, consistently starting with THREE or fewer coordinated cards will prove to very costly." etc.
How about I add "2-3-4-x". I'm losing it Zee I can't even remember what I wrote 2 months ago.
CRS paul
dont worry it takes years to learn to play tight then you get real good and play too loose.
Listen to Ray.
I would not raise the flop ... you have the nut low for now, but a 2 or 3 and you get nothing. You have almost no high chances except a wheel, and with a 4,6 on the board you will probably not win the high half even with a wheel.
A46 is a very threatening flop. I don't think you are going to get a lot of action from second or third nut lows, and if you do, then they probably have better straight draws than you do. Play it slow.
nt
A-A is killing me. It seems lately I just can’t win with the rockets in an Omaha8 game. A-A-2-Xs, A-A-x-x whatever. It doesn’t matter. If I try to push with them I never improve and lose. If I slow play, then along comes a great sucking sound across the table. Double suited, single suited, unsuited… it doesn’t matter.
In the past I won a fair share of hands with the rockets. I realize they can be very expensive to play, but the large pots that they bring in on winners often compensates for the losses.
I would appreciate any and everyone’s thoughts on playing Omaha8 with a pair of aces. Please point out any possible leaks in my game with the aces I may need to plug. Am I just running bad temporarily? Was I just having an incredibly good run with them that is balancing out with a bad run?
Thanks for you help.
A-A-x-x is not a very good hand in O/8 and shouldn't be played indiscriminately. You need AA2x or AA3x; AAKK or AAKQ double-suited - something of that caliber to be playing it all the time. Think about position with marginal AA hands.
By the way, you probably were having an incredibly good run with them, but that doesn't mean that this bad run is "balancing out" anything...but that's opening up a whole other can of Statistics...
~DjTj
You need to adjust your thinking. Maybe I think A's are worse than most but I think AAxx is a hand I would toss in early position, and only play in late if i could get in cheap...
This isn't holdem! The pb w/A's since some one always makes a straight or flush this means you need to make a set and then a boat to win the hight.
ANd once the A comes ont eh board its likely someone will make a low.
I think maybe you are a holdem player and think A"s in omaha are like them in holdem and it isn't even close. (Tehy are MUCH better in holdem).
ANd once the A comes ont eh board its likely someone will make a low.
I believe this is why KKxx can be considered a superior hand. Not to AA2x AA3x or AA4x of course.
I would really like some instruction on playing KKxx. I play it with help from the xx, but I've been beat up for having too little help.
I was told it does very well in computer simulations, but I've not had that confirmed.
I find KKxx works (and QQxx) if you see the flop cheap and xx is coordinated. What is coordinated? Broadway cards, straight flush suited helps; or another pair bigger than 8s. This is a high only hand that is looking for a high flop. Two high broadway cards with one low card will sometimes keep the lowballers in, hoping to get their low, which builds your pot if you hit your set. Otherwise if the flop does not hit you, fold!
What is not coordinated? Any low card that is not A2 or A3. KK34 sucks. KK2J sucks. KK57 really sucks. Suited King or Queen is just a sucker bonus that dies at the hands of a suited Ace when the pot is large and there is lots of action. You really want to pair the board to make a full house (by the turn).
Just my humble opinion, any thoughts welcome. -KeithO
mredge - Some thoughts about AAXX.
(1) About three times out of four, at least one of the aces is suited.
(2) If everyone is on a draw that doesn't pan out, a pair of aces in your hand, possibly plus a pair on the board to which no one has a match, often backs into high, especially if there are not very many players in the pot. Because of this, I tend to raise with a pair of aces with the idea of limiting the field. (Of course, if you're raising almost every time you come in, this won't work because, in that case, your raises will not tend to limit the field.)
(3) A pair of aces is not strong enough to slow play in Omaha/8. If a lot of players see the flop, and if an ace doesn't hit on the flop, unless there is something else major going on for your hand, I think you check and fold.
(4) The more players who see the flop, the less likely you are to catch an ace on the flop.
(5) It sure does feel good to peek at your cards and see a pair of aces, doesn't it? Sure beats a pair of sevens, doesn't it - even if you're on a bad luck streak with pairs of aces?
(6) It's hard to have a pair of aces without something working with an ace. Of course you don't want to play something like AA96 rainbow.
Buzz
AA in holdem is the best hand possible
AA in draw poker is a minimum opening hand under the gun in most games.
AA in omaha high is a good hand headup but goes way down with players in.
AA in omaha high with nothing else great stinks.
AA in razz is worthless
its all relative to the game.
Ray - Thanks.
Here is a direct quote from an excellent book about Omaha/8. “Two aces is a key hand in Omaha eight-or-better. With a deuce - and to a lesser extent a trey - included, you can consider two aces a premium hand.”
Recognize those words? They are your own, from page 215 in High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players. I treasure your advice and follow it when I can.
I think of you (fondly) whenever I peek at my cards and see a pair of aces, especially if a deuce or a trey is included in the four cards.
Buzz
I would say that my “style” for playing A’s is very close to what Buzz suggests:
Buzz wrote: “If everyone is on a draw that doesn't pan out, a pair of aces in your hand, possibly plus a pair on the board to which no one has a match, often backs into high, especially if there are not very many players in the pot. Because of this, I tend to raise with a pair of aces with the idea of limiting the field. (Of course, if you're raising almost every time you come in, this won't work because, in that case, your raises will not tend to limit the field.) “
I like to raise with AA in early position to drive out the field. As buzz said this is good because AA doesn’t fight a large number of hands very well. Also, I have scooped some rather large pots with a paired board and my third ace hits.
I will usually just call in late position to see if the flop hits me unless I have a good low draw (a-2, A-3) to go with it. In late position the added good low draw will make me want to get more money in the pot so I usually raise.
My preflop raises in Omaha are rare because I see so few flops. I use a modified Doc Hutchison system for determining if I call or raise. Those familiar with Doc’s system know it is rather tight and is geared toward scooping pots with starting hands that have a chance to win high and low. I adopted his system after seeing the man rarely lose in an Omaha session. I got tired of losing money to him, so I learned from the master.
Sorry suspicious, but Holdem is not my game. Omaha HiLo is the game that butters my corn bread and sops it in gravy. Despite the terrible run with AA’s lately, my records indicate that I’m still up a rather decent amount for the year in Omaha. Holdem is only a break even game for me. Of course, I play six hours of HiLo for every hour of Holdem. The raise in early position is to prevent someone from making a stupid straight on the river to win. If they are on the sidelines then they can’t win. Most of the games I play in a raise in early position will narrow the field to 3-4 callers at most. A game where 5-7 see the flop every hand would not warrant a raise in early position, just a call.
Thanks to every one for their comments. Additional thoughts and ideas are also welcome.
THATS THE WHOLE POINT IN PLAYING " QUALIFER 8 POKER" 'TWO-WAY HANDS' THE VERY SIMPLE UNDERSTANDING SIMPLE CONCEPT ...PLAY HANDS THAT CAN SCOOP/TWO-WAY HANDS DRAW TO THE NUTTTTTS AND HAVE PATIENCE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLLLLLLLLLLLLLE
actually mredge, having 3 callers with aces before the flop may very well be much worse than having 7 callers. you may be playing backwards.
I was only saying AA is holdem is a great hand, while in O/8 its ok at best. YOu need other others to make it a great one.
Some of the comments I made were based on some of the games Ive played in ( 4/8 and 5/10 O/8) and when someone raises usually the reaction is a bit of annoyance, but it doesn't make many fold who would have played for one bet! Maybe if your early position raises really thin the field you can raise w/AAxx early but i think a fold is more in order.
It is relatively easy even in 3 way action for someone to make a straight or a flush, if you expect to win alot of money w/AA when the board pairs dont' play O/8 play holdem!
Indeed you do. Lots of good stuff there!
Every time I re-read your book I gain something new.
Thank you.
Ten players I have the button in seat 8. UTG good player seldom raises, but plays too many hands at times. Raises to 8. Seat 2,3,4,5,6 fold. Seat 7 calls this guy is solid a rock. My hand is 2c3d4d5s what should I do and why??
thanks paul
Fold. Unfavorable odds to draw for an ace. (Not enough opponents to justify a double bet).
You have a good hand for low, but not a good hand for high. You could scoop with an ace and a couple other wheel cards, but that's unlikely. You want more opponents and no raise to play this hand.
UTG may be trying to limit the field, and seems to have managed to do just that. The "rock" in seat 7 probably has a better draw for low (maybe A-2-3) than you do.
Buzz,
That's about what I thought. I put the raiser on A's and the rock on A23 leaving only one or less A's to flop. I also had the SB & BB behind me. The BB called probably with an A2xx. Anyway the flop came 552 giving me full house had I stayed. Turn was a 9 and river was a J. No flushes. Raiser checked the flop, bet the turn and the river, rock called both. BB dropped at the turn. Raiser won with A's over 5's and the rock had A239 for 9's and 5's.
Of course I was second guessing my decision due to the flop and the result, thanks Buzz I see that flop for what it is a sucker pin placement.
Paul
:)
You seem to have a super read on your opponents. Will the rock really muck an A2KK to a raise? AAKK double suited or some other high only hand?
I once watched a very good player with this hand under similiar circumstances, but with 2 additional callers. He 3-bet, flopped A5, and won a monster pot. He said it was a hard raise, but he did it on principle!
I like the hand, but I would not be brave enough to raise. Most of the time you need an Ace on the flop, but as you saw, there are other good flops as well. It may be too obvious to say this, but it's very hard to brick the hand with low cards.
I seem to be disagreeing with some good posters here; it would be nice to see it run through some simulations.
This is one of those "see the flop" hands much like four high cards. If the flop hits you then run with it. If not, fight another day.
You are right that the aces are probably already out in hands, but I would still call the raise because this is still a good starting hand in Omaha8. 2-3-4-5 qualifies as a starting hand under the rather tight Doc Hutchison system of starting hands. (21 points)
Over 80 percent of your hands are defined for you before the flop. This one falls in the other 20 percent where the flop defines your hand.
Don't forget that you have position also. Under the gun might make this a fold, but I would probably call because I have a tight image and don't want people to be able to completely run over me. This is a good situation to appear to be a looser player who is not afraid to mix it up.
mredge,
This is why I posted this hand because I started thinking along your lines after the hand was over. For $8 dollars I would of won the pot. The player with A's isn't going to get another A more than likely. The rock probably doesn't have a 5 or anybody else when it is checked around. Granted I was lucky in not splitting the pot with a low, but the high was almost guaranteed after the flop.
I don't know the correct answer but in this situation a call was the right answer.
thanks mredge
See the flop as cheaply as possible. If you don't flop an ace, fold. It's that simple. If you flop the ace, you will have the nut low.
The 4-8 O8 game I play in is absolutely maniacal. I mean on average more than 7 of 10 players see the flop.
I have 2 questions:
1. What is the minimum starting hand with 7 or 8 people in the pot.
2. If there is a tendency to raise before the flop what is the minimum starting hand.
I know what good starting hands are, but I haven't seen a lot of information on games when everyone sees the flop. Lately I have become more agressive and raise a lot before the flop. My variance is much higher, but when I scoop a pot it is huge.
Thanks,
Derrick
The main thing to keep in mind is that as the number of callers increases, low-only hands become more profitable and high-only hands less profitable (on average). So you want to tighen up with high-card hands but you can take some chances IN LATE POSITION ONLY with speculative low-only hands, such as 235X, where being last or near-last to act may allow you to figure out if your non-nut low is a winner.
A sometime exception to this strategy: "The main thing to keep in mind is that as the number of callers increases, low-only hands become more profitable and high-only hands less profitable (on average)."
Sometimes "seldom of course" a pair of queens or kings can win "scoop" a big family pot. It helps to be in the blind or on the button. The thought is: most of the low cards are held by the players and there will probably not be a low. This event occurs just often enough to be noticed.
I would loosen up to some degree, according to my position, but remember your biggest advantage over these folks is playing tight before and after the flop. It's almost immpossible to put people on a hand in this scenerio.
5-10 Stud at the Trop. Typical game with one or two solid players. I start out with 2Q/2, not low, with no picture cards on board. I raise and get it heads up with a six, xx/6. My opponent would have raised coming in with a high pair, so i figured him for a limp with a pair of sixes and a medium/high upcard. Suits are unimportant. I catch a Q on the next card,and my opponent gets a 9. He is a fair player, who appears to know what he is doing, and is not afraid to bet or raise with a good hand, although he would call often with the worst hand.
On the next card he catches another 9, and bets $10 on fifth street. Rather than raise I call, and he leads on every street, with me calling. On the river he turns up two pair, 6's and 9's.
I won the hand, but I wonder if I played it too passively. He was a fair player, and not the kind who would slowplay trips. I figured him for two pair, but since he wasn't afraid of my raise coming in, I wasn't sure if he had better than two pair.
Should I have raised on fifth street? The pot was large enough that he would not make a mistake by chasing if he was not the best, but I thought he felt he had the best hand, and that I only had a pair of queens. After he showed down his hand, I felt that I could have gotten a few extra bets if I had raised, since I believe that he would have called me on the river with only two pair, even if I represented a higher two pair.
I normally am not a passive player, and am criticized for being too aggressive sometimes, but I really wasn't sure where I was in this hand. Afterwards, it seemed clear that I should have raised him.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Pat
Pat,
"On the next card he catches another 9, and bets $10 on fifth street. Rather than raise I call, and he leads on every street, with me calling. On the river he turns up two pair, 6's and 9's."
I would raise in this pos'n without even hesitating. If he raises back then I might think he's rolled up or seeing if I have three Q's. The problem I see and what I used to fear is the other guy always having the perfect cards to beat me rather than playing the hand aggressively to win the extra bet. After realizing most times they don't have the cards that I think they could have I win quite a bit more than if I just coast thru the hand. Sometimes they might catch the big hand but quite a few times they might throw away a small two pair and you only have Q's showing on the board, but by raising the 4 flush on 5 and catching a Q on 6th street and betting out on 7th I won the hand rather than losing it to a small two pair.
Play the game that suits your style, don't listen to other players, develop your own way of playing and stick to it. If something doesn't work than go back to the books and see why. It works for me.
Paul
you read him for 9&6's so pick a street and raise him on it. if you are going to bother figuring you might as well act on what work you did. good luck.
(1) With .50 invested in what appears to be mediocore position and 1 dead duce since he was low, on 3rd st he has you beat. You might have 1 overcard, so that means to win the hand you will need a queen. At this point I do not se the need to play the hand. No picture cards on board; he could be slow playing a big pair trying to let people in. In a 5/10 game it is sometimes worthwhile to play pocket Aces slowly if the game has an weak agressive player, and not too many callers which is almost always the case at the Trop on a weekend.
If you are pretty sure he has a split pair and thus 2 pair by 5th street, I think you can raise on 5th, but that will probably make you lead since he will probably check unless he improves. It might be nice to raise to try to win the pot immediately, but unless you show something, he will probably check call all the way. One nice thing about the hand is he will not improve without you knowing it except for the river. I would probably not have played the hand but once committed and believe I had the best hand, I would play it a bit more agressively than you did. (smoking or non-smoking area/weekend or non-weekend?)
Although this was in tournament play I wanted to post it here for some general feedback. That being said I just used my final buy-in and it was late in the tourney, about 15 hands to go and I just couldn't catch a playable starting hand all day. (Omaha8) So I get a A,K,10,8 rainbow, I'm in the small blind, and the flop comes out Ad,Kd,Qx. Bet raise I call, call reraise call call fold. Turn brings a low D.
So obviously I have to put one guy one the Broadway and the other on the flush. Bet, I call reraise 'til it's capped. (I'm getting my brains beat out at this point but my thinking is as poor as my opening hands have been and the money that is in the pot that this could turn the whole thing around, one way or another if a A or K hit)
So sure enough the K comes on the river and it's bet right out, I raise and everyone just looks at me like they have just witnessed the miracle of miracles and just call. I scooped a monster pot and finished second in the tourney.
Now please understand that normally I wouldn't even have called that hand in the first place except for the fact that it was a half bet at that point and that I'm not real proud of the play. BUT, it sure felt good to see that damn K fall!
The bottom line is that it would have taken a miracle no matter what to get back in the hunt so I went for it. At best I had four outs, probably less assuming someone had an ace.......Oh well that's my story, please don't punish me too bad......Red
Desperation might be called the "mother-of-suckouts." Congrats. Seat open ....
I try to play competently enough at 7-stud, O-8, and HE so that I can sit in any game in the house. This has the added benefit of allowing me to get into action quicker when there is a long list for the particular game that I really want to play. However, I've noticed that when playing O-8 and then moving over to HE, my mind seems pathetically ill-equipped to play HE. Yet I don't have that problem moving from 7-stud to HE or vice-versa, or even between 7-stud and O-8. Has anyone who plays all games noticed similar "mindset" problems?
Moving from HE to O8 I think "Cool, now I can play more hands 'cause I got more cards to choose from!"
I also tend to look more at high hands, rather than focusing on scoopers. Falling in love w/a dry A2 is one problem I don't have.
I have to remind myself to slow down when I move to stud after the wild O8 and Holdem
My mindset switch is moving from 7CS hi/lo to Omaha hi/lo. In 7CS8 you draw to the best hand going at the table. In Omaha you have to draw to the nuts!
Then switching to Holdem from O8, I am always looking for Ace thru 5 wheel possiblities.
Only takes an orbit (or two) to readjust though.
-KeithO
Interesting question. I used to have alot of problems when I switched from O/8 to holdem.
I t seems like a breath of fresh air when I switch from O/8 to holdem, maybe because I'm a very tight 0/8 player and the omaha players will never let you steal anything...
I think when I changed from O/8 to holdem I was way to afraid of the nuts. And tended to overvalue drawing hands.
Didn't switch much from He to omaha much, but I definitely noticed the phemomena you mention when I played both games often.
And I noticed also when changing to or from stud games I didn't have much problem. I wonder why this is....
These problems will go away as you acquire more playing experience.
Hehe.
Couple of choices depending on the type of players and how much you are willing to risk.
5 way action tells me you have some passive non-agressive players.
xx/7,j,2 forget about him. nothing you can do here.
xx/K,6,6 needs a king to win. he'll play to the river and fold if he does not get a 6 or a king. definitely some drawing hands out there.
bet and make them all pay for the draw. You have live cards. If he (K,6,6) raises, the others unless thay have better cards will fold an you will be heads up. You have enough outs to bet here.
Of course if you wantthe safe road, then check, but that lets everyone in and one of them will probably drawout on you. That will be costly. Make 'em pay for the draw.
<
if he gets a king, he has 2 pair. if he does not have an overcard to the queen as the queen bets, he should fold. he would be a fool to play. would you play with 6,6,3,3 against what is almost surely queens up?
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 August 2000, at 11:23 p.m.
I think you played right. At this point I would bet, to force someone to fold. I also think you are behind at this point to 2 small pairs. As your cards are live, you may win with a catch or bulling your way through and hopeing the 2 small pair fold.
I agree you should play agressively. If xxK,6,6, is slowplaying kings up, he's making a mistake. Your other option is to check and fold. While you may have the top pair, you may be facing three other drawing hands, any one of which could beat you. With Queens, you odds are significantly less than if you had Kings or Aces. Facing so many drawing hands, you either bet and make them pay or give up and fold if bet into, unless you make two pair. I would certainly bet into loose, passive players, and probably bet into most players in this situation. At least I know I'm getting three to one for my money.
Of course, someone could be slowplaying trips, but they have to start betting at some point.
Slow playing trip 4's would be an error especially with the check around. Trip 4's should be played fast from 4th street against 5 players. Now trip Kings is a different story
Hi Rockhard
>> At least I know I'm getting three to one for my money. >>
but do you have one chance in four of winning?
I'd say it is very likely that you have to improve to win. You have ten cards that will improve the hand, or about one in three.
But if the K66 started with a pair in the hole, he has seven outs that will beat you even if you improve. If he started with an A in the hole, he has eight. Add in a few outs for the others (another 4 to the 2,4,4 or maybe a straight card) and I think it reduces your chances to below one in four.
I'd say bet if you think someone will fold (not likely) or if you want an aggressive table image, but a check and call to the river will probably make about the same amount of money over time.
DJ
I posted below about playing in a crazy O8 game with 7 to 10 players going for every flop, and 4 or 5 making it to the river very consistently.
I am a winner at the above game, but I tried playing O8 online, and do not do well. It is much tighter, and I am having troubles adjusting.
In the game I am used to top 2 pair almost never win. Online it seems to be an alright hand. Is this true or am I fooling myself.
Thanks,
Derrick
A fairly loose $2/$4 7CS HiLo game, with 3 to 4 players seeing 4th street when it's not raised on 3rd, not always with decent hands though. Some of these players were calling the $1 bring in with a high card and 2 not necessarily connected low cards.
The 4h brings in for, Tc folds, 9s calls. I have 6s8h/7h and raise, with the 5d, Qd, Qs, Ad behind me. With no other low cards in yet, my thinking was to ditch as many of the loose callers as possible, to try and avoid ending up against other, better low draws later.
Without knowing who else wanted to join the party, maybe I should I have just called and got the next card cheap before making an assessment.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
You have 6,7h,8h, but three cards you need for high are out: 5,9,T. Otherwise it is a terrible low. The 4h or Ad can be low. If raises knock players out, maybe it's OK, but the Ace has yet to act behind you.
Fold that trash.
maybe you should have folded. you have 3 cards you may need gone with another likely 9 from under the 9 that called. that 25% of your live high card hands thats now dead. and 3 of your low cards are dead. you need to study some more. good luck.
Ray, If I'm holding 38A offsuit in this spot. Should I be calling?
No,
A8x is one of the most over-rated hands in 7stud/8. It plays well heads up, but that's about it.
- Andrew
sure in this spot a38 isnt too bad for the low possiblities as there has been no strength shown and you can beat the two high hands with one of the two aces left. but its a dangerous hand that always must be played right to make money.
Ray,
Your posts are great. They are short and sweet, making the point crystal clear to beginners. David and Mason have written a lot of difficult important stuff. But you always reduce it to a simple concept (like arithmetic!). I appreciate your clarity of thought even though I hardly play poker. You probably don't like sitting behind a word processor. But if there is any way to get you to sit still long enough for a seminar or general book then I would buy it.
. I suggest that Graham buy both Ray Zee's book . on hi-lo split/8 and Dr. Max Stern's "CHAMPION- . SHIP STUD AND STUD/8". . . In Ray's book you get excellent starting hand . requirements, and how to play them properly. . . In Dr.Max Stern's book you learn how to play . the "babies" 6 to the Ace, learn not to 2-card . limp like most people I play with at Garden City.
Graham,
This (6s8h/7h) hand is what I call a middle fiddle hand. It's neither high or low. Unless everything is live for this hand including Hearts I would fold this hand especially in a multiway game. As others stated before me.
Paul
This is good hand in a short-handed pot, and generally bad in a multi-way pot. But dead drawing hands are bad in any pot. this is the main problem.
If you raise in a loose game with mediocre hands, you are making others play better. You have a 5 and 2 queens behind you, and they are likely to play against you exposed middle card and a nine.
Notice I didn't mention the live ace. This hand will be there also, so there are 2 likely low hands against you, both of which will be superior to yours. Another possiblity is a reraise from the ace and a heads up pot with a pair of aces. None of this is terribly appealing.
I would be inclined not to raise here. To be honest I will often fold this hand here. Your straight cards are not live. There is one of each of the cards you need for your straight out - a 4, 5, 9, and T. This will seriously hurt your chances of making the straight.
I wouldn't count too much on your 2 flush but those cards are reasonably live - only one heart out.
If you are reraised by the 5 or ace you might be in deep doodoo for low. If I did decide to play this hand, and I probably wouldn't, I would try to see 4th street as cheaply as possible. If I don't get a card that connects with my straight, fold immediately. You would like to catch a miracle card, like the 5 or 9 of hearts.
Of course, if you get a low card and it looks like you are going low alone, you can jam a little especially if that low card is a 5 or a heart. Maybe everyone will drop right there, and you might make a hogger if they don't. But again, doing this will not make a good low draw drop so you might only want to do it if you are the only one going low.
-SmoothB-
I'd see the next card cheaply or dump it.
-SmoothB-
Bet it.
If you do get check - raised you may not be that big a dog if he has kings up--which seems unlikely given the fact that he could have checkraised the round before-- and in addition his check-raise would probably get the other two players out which benefits you anyway.
Also, you can't give AQ/k66 a free card or Ak/244 a free card or whatever busted hand might be held by the other guy--doorcard 7.
Bet!
If you think at least one of your opponents has two pair, then you absolutely must check and take the free card for yourself, because you are behind. If you are certain that neither has two pair, then you should bet, because you want them to pay to beat you. If you are not certain, then you are probably better off checking than betting, because it's hard to believe that both of the open-pair hands called without a starter pair.
It was as I was playing the hand that I wasn't sure what might be the best way to play it, so i posted the hand without the result. The following is the result:
I bet on 5th. Chased out the 4s and the other hand. xx/k,6,6 called. I checked on 6th street, now sure he had two pair (but not kings). He checked on river and I checked since I had unimproved queens. I didn't try to bluff on the river since i felt certain he would call. He won with 5s and 6s.
An additional thought was that by chasing out the other two hands, did I help him more than I helped myself?
Richard
I know a decent Omaha-8 hand when I see it. My trouble is that I only see one about 1 hand in 6. In the game I play often there are 4 or 5 flopheads, seeing every flop making for a very loose game. I feel I'm giving up value by only playing the top 1/6 of the hands and wonder exactly how low a savy player can go? If you have ideas please include a few examples. Thanks.
-Fred-
page 232-234 zee's book loose, 235-239 multiway
I couldn't possibly come close to saying better than that today!!!!
paul
I think 1 in 6 hands is fine for a table like this.
you must be a very lucky card holder. i for the life of me cannot get decent omaha hands 1 out of 6. although i may sometimes play that many, those extra are with pretty bad hands that i got in cheap with or for free.
Will you be teaching soon at a card catching school near me. I consider it a good lap around the table if I get to see the flop on my sb, bb and one other hand. I probably see the flop only about 20% of the time.
< 20% = 1/5 of the time which is seeing more flops than 1/6 so you might be qualified to teach at that card catching school as well.
I keep telling people here I'm math impaired. Can't do odds at the table. People here keep telling me how easy it is. Now, will anyone believe me.
Posted by: mredge (mredge@excite.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 26 August 2000, at 10:22 a.m.
"Fred",
You sound like you are playing a little too loose unless you include free plays in the blinds. As Badger said, you can have fun playing low limit Omaha or you can make money. You can't do both. And for practice, paint a wall and watch the paint dry. You will need that much patience.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I'm too tired to get into detail right now. If you see me at the New Jersey Commerce Casino, I can give you a few hints provided you buy me a carrot juice.
Here are my comments. Please note that I haven't read the other posts.
"xx/2 brings it in, I have q,9/q and raise. xx/k calls, xx/7 calls, bring in calls."
This looks fine
"4th street: xx/k,6; xx/7,j; xx/2,4 I catch a blank. All check to me; I bet."
Your bet is fine.
"5th street: xx/k,6,6; xx/7,j,2; xx/2,4,4. I catch another blank. q,9,/q,5,7.
xx/k,6,6 checks and the other two follow with checks.
My cards are live with the exception of the 7. Even though I had been at the table for only some hands, I did get some info on the players in the hand. The xx/7,j,2 was somewhat drunk and something of a maniac it seemed. xx/2,4,4 called every time on 3rd for the few hands I was able to watch. Neither seemed to enthused about their cards when they checked. It was the xx/k,6,6 i was concerned about. But since he checked, I don't want to give the others a free card, but don't want to be check-raised either. I thought he might have started with a pocket pair and the King.
What do I do here?"
I think that you should bet. In stud, it is sometimes important to bet or raise with a second best hand just to get other hands out, and this may include a third best hand. In this spot, you may or may not have the best hand, so a bet seems almost mandatory.
If the player with the king check raises you, you don't have to call. However, I doubt that this would be the case since he would probably be afraid that you won't bet given his board.
In a sense you are asking what the odds are that you would not get any of the pot, so we count up the cards that could fall that will not complete any of your draws.
To have a guaranteed hogger (nut high or nut high and low, assuming another a2 isnt out against you) these are the cards you don't want to see (lets ignore straight flushes for now)
2 kings 3 queens 3 jacks 2 tens 2 nines
So there are 12 cards that could come out of 44 that will leave you with nada (barring some fluke where your AA actually wins).
27.3% chance of this happening.
Note that this assumes that if a flush card hits and pairs the board, your flush won't be good. (As turned out to be the case here.)
As for the odds of you making at least the low:
2 aces
3 deuces 3 threes 4 4's 4 5's 4 8's
20/42, or nearly 50% chance.
Making your flush (and not pairing the board) ignoring str8 flushes
14/42 or 1/3 (exactly 2:1 against)
You were betting and raising for value and I would have done the same thing. If you could play this hand out 1000 times but change the river card every time you would be a huge winner.
-SmoothB-
...you forgot to count the out that actually beat him...
There are 3 6'2 and 3 7's that are no good - This adds 6 cards, making the odds of getting none of this pot 40.9% - pretty big huh...
Your odds of making the low are right - 45.5% to be exact, only slightly higher than the odds of making nothing...
But really you should break it down into several cases: assuming your opponent has trips...
Of course, 2 of your nut lows are trip aces, which could win high, barring somebody making broadway. With 5 people in, this is probably likely...So lets include the assumption that a caller has KT.
Now lets ask the question: Should you bet the turn? You are getting .181+.136+.273/2 = 0.4535 bets for each caller. So, you actually need 3 callers to make your money back...
Of course, you get more money if you make one of your draws and get callers on the river. Lets assume half the turn callers will call a bet on the river when you make your draw. This effectively means you'll get 1.5*0.4535 = 0.68 bets for each caller. So, two callers is probably enough to make a bet more than correct.
So, as long as you're pretty sure it won't be heads up, bet the draws for value, but know you're going to get nothing 40% of the time.
~DjTj
Thanks, I guess I should have specified post-flop odds including the back door flush. I've got a number, but I not sure it's right.