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Good play Dunc; I also think a key factor of the hand was that you had 2 of the 6's necessary for the straight in your hand. On that basis, I probably would have been betting much faster to charge the low draws.
But then again, I don't think any of the posters here quite grasp the depths of suckitude in the O/8 game at Baccarat. Why, even I can practically break even in that game...
I'm new to this site, but have been playing o/8 for a few years & loving it.
The key in general is to vary your play, sometimes bet, sometimes checkraise.
I had a similar hand dealt - hitting my set of k's on the flop - Kx4x3x in a 4/8 game. One of the better players bet in front of me & I raised. After 4 callers, he re-raised and I called.
When high & pair came out, he bet, I raised and he called. He later said he didn't think I had K's because I didn't re-raise.
Most important is your read on the table. Well done!
Stack o' Chips, what if you were the defending champ in the tournament, the other player was a notorious bluffer and splitting with him might start a six year tournament winning streak for him?
If I ever found a gutless wimp like that in MY game, I would run him and his limp-wristed, weak-passive ass out of town on a rail. A few years back when I was in that situation, I acted like a man and . . .. Does this shirt make me look fat?
I have heard so many players complain about how foolish this is that I'm starting to question what I beleive is correct, thus the post.
I agree that you may not lose many players by doing this but that is seldom why I raise in this situation. I want to raise for that very reason, if I have a premium hand and everyone is calling me, don't I have the best of it?
For example not to push this to the 3 or 4 best hands possible, Ah-2h-5x-Qx, in other words in this example I think I'm still correct in raising pre-flop but it's not As-Ah-2s-3h, which if you can tell me why you wouldn't raise with that well, don't bother :)
So in the first example the one for this discussion I beleive that you would have the best of it by raising and that you should therefore raise, please tell me how so many see this as "throwing money away", "a waste of time", "not profitable" ETC.....
I think everyone just wants to get in this game for one bet because admittingly there are more "miracle flops" but so what, you have to lay down hands in this game that are marginal just as any other and I just think people have a harder time doing in this game so it makes them angry to put in another bet.
I know I got a little more long winded than I intended but I would really appreciate all your comments.
Most recreational O/8 are looking for action and if I've got a premium hand in position, I'm gonna see that they get some. I play in a dealers choice home game, which is about 60% O/8. If they are already in for 1 bet, they WILL call a raise. If I don't hit my hand, I'm not going any further. If I'm in early position I'll just call and if raised I'll just call again. In my game a raise doesn't usually thin the field, which is fine with me! If you are going to play this game, Ray Zee's book is a MUST! Dino.
been playin holdem 15 mos. joining local mid limit 1/2 holdem 1/2 omaha never played omaha what adjustments do i need to make and what are the premium starting hands and what traps do i need to look for
limits 15-30
Trap??? Drawing to J or Q high flushes.
Start with 4 cards that give you 4 good Holdem hands. Big cards, 4 consecutive cards or maybe just one gap in the 4. Axs is nice if at least one of the other two cards is also working with your hand.
Draw to the nuts. If you dont like 2 out of the 3 cards on the flop, then drop.
This assumes your talking about Omaha Hi.
Try thinking of Omaha as six-way high-low hold 'em with restrictions on which cards you can use. Nothing to it!
Hi; The game rules are not that available. I am an advanced holdem player and I find I don't get paid when I have the same two lowest hold cards as an opponent but he does. Also I have seen players win two hands using all 4 of their hold cards. Two for high and two for low. It seems the dealers can decide whether you are betting high or low even if you have 2nd best high they don't pay you if you have the lowest low. Watch out!
"I find I don't get paid when I have the same two lowest hold cards as an opponent but he does."
Huh? No, no, no.
"Also I have seen players win two hands using all 4 of their hold cards. Two for high and two for low."
Yes. That is how Omaha high/low is played.
"It seems the dealers can decide whether you are betting high or low even if you have 2nd best high they don't pay you if you have the lowest low."
Huh? No, no, no.
Buzz
This question cannot be answered in a vacuum. It depends on your image, the quality of the opponent, the chances that he will fold with bare aces, etc.
If you are planning to bluff you should almost always bet on sixth after he checks, and then bet out on the river. The answer to your question is to bluff if it will show a long term profit, and that depends upon the exact situation. It is usually worth a shot if the opponent is weak, but not a dolt, and you need to bet on sixth to set up the play. To do this as a matter of routine could prove costly, so you should make this play only in select, profitable situations.
Pat
I must agree with Patrick here. Additionally, you must consider that some players will always call with trips or Aces up (if he made his trip Aces or 2nd pair), especially in a good mid-level game. A check-raise works well when you have a tough game and 3 of a suit showing, and you have shown some strength with few of that suit on board. In a tough game, most people would expect your check-raise is not a bluff, but more of a play to get more money in the pot. It does not work wel with inexperienced players or those who are not attentative. Your call on 5th street was OK but a raise might set up a bluff later or be a been a decent on-the-come bet. On 6th street it would be OK for you to check, call, but since he checked first, your check is weak unless you suspected him of filling already and expected a check raise from him. And, the check call probably tells the opponent you do not have the flush, yet. On the river, if he checks you have to bet if you think he will fold, but the 6th street check will almost always elicit a call on a river bet. If he has trips-he will call. If Aces up, probably a call. If bare Aces-probably a fold. If he filled-a raise.
What would you do if he checked raised the river?
I would bet him if he checked to me, given your choices 25% of the time. A)who knows maybe he'll fold B)advertisement purposes.
ty all
75-150 stud hand (8 handed) from Sunday night...
3rd street:
Seat 5 (tight, not very aggressive player) brings it in with the 4c, seats 6 and 7 fold, seat 8 calls (forgot the doorcard, but it's unimportant), seat 1 (good player, but likes to gamble it up sometimes, right now he's playing good) calls with the Ad, seats 2 and 3 fold, I raise with (Jc9c)Jd, seat 5 calls, seat 8 calls, seat 1 calls.
4th street:
Seat 1: (xx)Ad3h
Me: (Jc9c)JdQd
Seat 5: (xx)4c9c
Seat 8: I forget what he had.
Seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 8 folds, seat 1 raises, I reraise, seat 5 calls, seat 1 calls. I think reraising is better than calling (or folding) here for a variety of reasons, even though I'm pretty sure seat 1 has aces. What do you think?
5th street:
Seat 1: (xx)Ad3h4h
Me: (Js9s)JdQdTd
Seat 5: (xx)4c9c2s
Seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 1 folds (he later said he had aces, which I'm sure is true).
6th street:
Me: (Js9s)JdQdTd4d
Seat 5: (xx)4c9c2sJh
I bet, he calls.
What's your move on the river, depending on what card you catch? What does seat 5 have?
Obviously you are going to call the river (unless the bettor is JJ), so the question is should you bet out. I think not, since you will only be called if you are beat. If seat 5 is actually a tight player, he wouldn't be calling you with a hand that couldn't beat a Q high flush if he hits it, and if he misses his hand, he won't call the river anyway. I have a hard time putting him on a flush draw, a roll up seems more likely.
I know I would have probably checked and called and thought it was the right play. Now that I think about it I don't know. One thing I'm pretty sure of though if you got this guy wrong and he is an expert you will loose this pot.
Here is what i think he's got
Tight, not very aggressive
1. An Ace high flush draw
2. K's or Q's or A's
3. trip's
4. 9's and 4's
Expert
1. An Ace high flush draw
2. trips
Well, I hit an offsuit ace on the river, which didn't improve my hand (or so I thought). So I checked the river. As a couple of you said, I should not bet the river no matter what I get here, and I agree with that assessment.
So anyway, he checks too. I flip over a pair of jacks. It turns out he had AcJc in the hole and caught a blank on the river, but had made the other pair of jacks on 6th street. So anyway, my jacks with an ace-queen kicker beat his jacks with an ace-nine kicker or whatever his next card was, I forget.
The closeness of the showdown (in actuality I drew out on him on the river) is what got me thinking more about the hand, and whether I maybe should have bet here in case he would fold 2 small pair.
George,
What's your move on the river, depending on what card you catch? What does seat 5 have?
Seat 5 (tight, not very aggressive player)
Me: (Js9s)JdQdTd4d
Seat 5: (xx)4c9c2sJh
He called all the way thru the hand with raises and your straight/flushing board he was the bring in. I would of put him on a flush.
My question to you is what do you do if he bets the river?
This is why I would bet out and if raised I would call. If he drops you don't have to show your hand.
paul
I haven't read the other posts, but here are my comments.
"3rd street: Seat 5 (tight, not very aggressive player) brings it in with the 4c, seats 6 and 7 fold, seat 8 calls (forgot the doorcard, but it's unimportant), seat 1 (good player, but likes to gamble it up sometimes, right now he's playing good) calls with the Ad, seats 2 and 3 fold, I raise with (Jc9c)Jd, seat 5 calls, seat 8 calls, seat 1 calls."
This looks fine to me. Your straight flush kicker makes your hand stronger in a multiway pot.
"4th street: Seat 1: (xx)Ad3h Me: (Jc9c)JdQd Seat 5: (xx)4c9c Seat 8: I forget what he had.
Seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 8 folds, seat 1 raises, I reraise, seat 5 calls, seat 1 calls. I think reraising is better than calling (or folding) here for a variety of reasons, even though I'm pretty sure seat 1 has aces. What do you think?"
It's better if you think that there is some chance that seat 5 will fold. You would prefer to play heads up against a likely pair of aces than be in a three way pot. This is an example of raising with the second best hand to get the third best hand out, and in stud is frequently the best play.
"5th street: Seat 1: (xx)Ad3h4h Me: (Js9s)JdQdTd Seat 5: (xx)4c9c2s
Seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 1 folds (he later said he had aces, which I'm sure is true)."
This is even better since it now looks like you are agains a flush draw. Though if that was the case he should consider folding given your board unless his draw contained an ace. (He should know that you don't have the Ad.)
"6th street: Me: (Js9s)JdQdTd4d Seat 5: (xx)4c9c2sJh I bet, he calls."
I agree given that you caught another diamond.
"What's your move on the river, depending on what card you catch? What does seat 5 have?"
This is a tough spot since it looks like he either has a flush draw or can easily beat a pair of jacks. You need to think about how capable of throwing away a set or two pair your opponent is. If he can lay a hand like that down I would sterongly consider betting if I catch a blank, and a blank in this case might be any card that does not make you at least three-of-a-kind, and check if you catch a diamond or make a straight.
What's your move on the river depending on what you catch? What's the minimum hand you would value bet here, if any? What if I bet into you, are there any hands you raise with, knowing the ace of diamonds is out (assuming you have a flush draw)? What would you call with?
Basically, I think looking at it from this angle would help to find out how I should play the river in all circumstances.
Amazing how even the hand turned out, I had him on a flush draw all the way, I cannot imagine him not re-rasing on fourth street at the latest if he was rolled up.(I know, easy to say after the fact)
I don't think there's any hand that he can bet here except the flush, he has to know you're gonna call regardless, I think you would, so obviously the best thing that can happen to him is that you hit your flush or straight and re-raise.
I almost forgot, you don't know me or anything. I just played heads up stud 8 hi/lo against you for a few hours a while back on the internet (steely dan) What a grind!
Were you talking to me or BetTheDraw?
I'm assuming it was him because I don't play on the internet.
Either way, I'm glad you enjoyed my hold'em hand. Heh. I was just trying to show how bad of a read people we can get on a hand sometimes. Besides, it was a neat story.
I think he's talking to you, since I am not a legend except in my own mind.
that's odd. I played against a George Lind on the internet. Maybe someone out there is trying to get a solid image without having to work for it.
I'm just gonna leave this one alone.
Somehow I knew you'd have something to chime in regarding that post.
Opinions on my flop play in this full table loose low limit 3-6 omaha hi game required:
1 early limper and I raise with As Ac 6c 2s, 3 callers then the sb raise and the bb caps it!! I along with every one else calls the cap and we see the flop 7 handed!
Flop: Qh 5c 3s
yuk,
sb bets out and bb calls, now it's up to me there already $90 in the pot so I'm getting a whopping 30:1 to call here, I have 2x runner runner nut flush draws and a non nut inside straight draw so I call (it also helps that the two other preflop agressors have both already acted). I figure my 2x runner runners are with about 4 outs alone? Unfortunately there is a raise and a call then another raise from the remaining late position players, sb calls 2 bets, bb folds, I call 2 bets and it gets capped.
The rest of it's a no brainer. Turn is the 8c and river is the Jc and I scoop a lovely $163 pot!
d.
N/T
Darren - I have no comments on your play of the hand because I don't play Omaha hi.
You wrote, "I figure my 2x runner runners are with about 4 outs alone?"
90/990 combinations make either flush for you.
If, after the flop, you were drawing to a four outer, as to make an inside straight,
170/990 combinations would make the straight for you.
I figure each runner-runner is worth about one out.
Buzz
Buzz:
[At the risk of cluing in some of the jerkstores from my own game who tend to lurk here, I have some observations and questions about Chowaha.]
I dealt myself about 50 simulated hands of 2-card Chowaha to get a feel for the types of hands to expect. Somewhat to my surprise, it was hard to make a big hand either direction. By definition, unless you have 2 cards under an 8 in your hand you cannot make a low -- this happened frequently. It also seemed that the best high hands, more often than not, were straights and flushes and even trips. Also, more than in Omaha-type games, it seemed that kickers were important, because you must play both hole cards. Thus if both of us hold the third card of a rank that pairs the board, the kicker must play.
Seems like the best types of hands would be low suited connectors.
Is this close?
Stack - Full houses (and even quads) should be more common than in Omaha-8, and that is also our experience in our weekly private game. Lows do not seem affected quite as much, but it should be somewhat more common to find someone with the nuts for low, and that is also our experience.
Buzz
I know 7CSFAP discusses this situation where you have top pair say Ks8cKd and you see another K and 8 out after the first three cards. Your hand is probably the best but it's kind of dead. If there a lot of callers I would think you would not want to raise. How dead would your hand have to be to consider folding with a lot of callers? I suppose if you are one of the first players in you can raise and hopefully get the pot shorthanded or heads up. I just wonder what others thought about this situation.
Tom,
This is a hand I'm looking to get rid of. In late position with a lot of callers, I don't think it's worth playing. Coming in with a raise up front is very risky if the game is loose or aggressive. The only value this hand has (IMHO) is when you can come in first, for a raise, in late position, where your Kings might stand up unimproved.
Tom D
Fold it 95%.
This is pretty thoroughly discussed in 7 stud FAP. But here's my thoughts -
once you know there will be many players...
1) Dump it if an ace is playing. 2) raise in if your opponents wil limp in liberally, but fold on 3rd to a raise (as they might in a 10-20 game, or a $1-5 or $2-10 game....) 3) fold in a high - ante game with people who will be tenacious callers or very aggressive later 4) fold in a game where your opponents are likely to hold strong hands when they limp in, esp. strong draws (if they are tight on 3rd) 5) just call if your opponents are likely to be holding smaller pairs with unrelated kickers or weaker draws (if they are loose on 3rd) 6) call if the likely 4th street bet will come right in front of you (say a J or Q held by an aggressive player), so you can raise it and get heads up. 7) fold if the opposite of #6 is true 8) fold if your opponents play well, call if they stink 9) be more inclined to call if an ace was folded, or if your opponents seem to be playing dead hands themselves. 10) call in a game where your opponents play aggressively on 3rd - i. e., their calls tell you they don't have much. Esp if they tend to raise with small pair, ace kicker hands, or ace high 3 flushes. Tend to fold (or give up easily on 4th) if the opposite is true.
See, what a simple game this is....
Good luck.
Dan Z.
I would call, not fold. You could pick your spots to eliminate the field. If you fold this on third you are giving up way too much.
Sugar, I don't EVER throw away two kings until I KNOW I am beaten. I know that ain't real fancy play but those cowboys ain't goin' NOWHERE unless I am REAL sure someone's got aces or better.
Tom,
Lets say your hand is completely dead so you must have seen two other Kings and three other 8's. This means there are only two other players in the hand (assuming an eight handed game) that can have a non-King or non-8 showing. So even if your pair of Kings is completely dead it still might be right to play because all the opposing hands are sort of dead also.
CV
I would probably toss the hand, but it would depend on my position, the players (loose-passive vs tight), the ante, if I have 2 suits. If I play the hand, I would like to play it heads up. I think I toss it 90-95% of the time too
Tom,
with 2 out your hand still retains plus value but it may lose alot depending on how your opponents play. id tend to just call when i couldnt narrow the field much and look to make a hand or get out if the other hands stay live or look like they could have improved. headup its a hand you push but with a bunch of callers id keep it small until i got something to bet.
WARNING: This post has absolutely no poker value. Though perhaps if you could always laugh when someone hits a runner runner it's better than steaming.
As 2x 4x 10s early position. I call, 7 players (it's that kind of game).
Flop to die for: Ks 6s 5h, I bet, 4 callers
Magic Turn: Js, so I now have nut flush, royal redraw, nut low draw (with second nut low if I get bricked). I bet, 2 callers.
Evil river: 6x. I check, full house bets, fold to me, and I call.
What was his hand? Funny you should ask. JJ33 off. I had to laugh.
Fred, you think this is unusual? Please.
Just show up any night at Yellowhead or Baccarat Casinos in Edmonton, get in the 4/8 Dealer's Choice game (it's 80% O/8 anyway) and wait about 20 minutes. I guarantee you will see some sort of similar ridiculous hand dragging a pot, or the first beer's on me. LOL.
Even funnier, trips didn't raise on the turn, it would have happen at the Omaha here.
I was playing in my home game 10-20, dealer's choice. I came in on the button w/ AQsQTs. Flopped Q77 - rainbow. Bet, call, to me, I raise. Turn - offsuit 9. Check to me I bet, call, call. River K. check, bet(this guy would bet his K7 he just filled up), I raise, call, re-raise, I call, early position calls.
Guess the hands : Early position Q7A4. Nothing special.
river re-raiser - AKKK - That's right, he played trips all the way down and spiked a ONE outer. His logic "AKKK is too pretty a hand to give up, even if it is trips".
Beat that one.
OK...you're on! Posted By: hillbilly Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 9:52 p.m.
In Response To: That's Nutin! (Patrick)
Last night 8-handed 1 dollar-5 dollar hi-lo home game. Six card hi-lo stud w/two twists (I hate it but it's all I've got around here) Me-(A3)258, Player 1-(xx)44K Player 2-(xx)A24, Player 3-Showing 3 to a flush, Player 4-showing a seven hand. The other 3 players are showing a mismatch and I don't know what they are doing. So here I am, I need the case 4, to just win half the pot,(or share it) and every player just described has bet or raised 5 and I'm looking at 20 dollars spike my four.
So I drop, I mean I have to right? Player 1 is representing the last four anyways, Player 2 might already have a wheel,(he has been raising the entire hand to begin with) I know player 3 (99%)has the flush already so scoop potential is all but gone, and player 4 has a seven hand and maybe a higher straight.
Well, as soon as I drop the case 4 comes off the deck and goes over my mucked hand into my neighbor hand to my immediate left (yes, my one outer was there, but I wasn't)Try as I might, I could not control myself, my head snapped back and I was completely shell shocked. (I'm going to have to work on that :o)
So I get up and go outside to compose myself for a few moments and when I come back in the case 4 is now in Player 1's hand! and his board reads (xx)444K!
WTF is going on! and then it dawns on me. My neighbor had mucked his hand after I stepped outside and since there were so many players the discards had to be re-shuffled and the case 4 returned into the game when player 1 twisted for a new card.
I guess you could say he hit a NO OUTER! (which actually bummed him out because he had pocket K's and was already full before the trip fours which caused the flush to not pay off)
Once a week o/8 home game ---bet is $1.00 to $4.00 any time. This is the problem. 1 player never looses. This game has been going on for 2 yrs. This guy gets unbelivable cards hand after hand. He once won half or hoged the pot 11 hands in a row. No one can belive it. He is a very nice guy & we all have ruled out cheating. All he ever says is " I have sure been getting good cards lately" He will win between $300 & $400 almost ever session. He might loose once in 10 sessions and then will be under $100.
Some times he is the only winner for the session. I try to not give him much action, but the other guys will give him some. All the other players are not dummys, They are all good players, in fact the game is tougher than any o/8 I have played in a casino. Question--- How long can this guy get these kind of cards? The average player gets the nuts once in a while, but this guy gets them to often. We can`t figger it out. Any coments fron U experts.
Coyote.
I've encountered a similar problem in the past. The player in question was not cheating, but definitely had extra information about the cards to come.
1) Never predeal the board. Deal the board just like a casino does with burn cards. Some individuals have great eyesight and can spot small imperfections that occur in the cards during normal play.
2) Make sure the cards are being properly shuffled. This player was able to remember a series of cards and know what was cards were coming against certain dealers.
Rodney, If player was to see floped card he should not have the nuts any more than an average player. This guy shows nuts all the time of which u have to have most of the time to win in this game. This guy is an expert gin rummy player also. I know of 2 state titles he has won. He is one of my best friends, we read the same poker books and talk stragey all the time. Do U think he is married to one of the poker gods angles? Ha Ha.
I have seen him win at casino`s also, but the rake holds him back a little there. U Till me.
Coyote
Take a hand like A479 rainbow. This is unplayable garbage, but starts to look pretty good when a 238 hit the flop. This gives the illusion of always being lucky and hitting the nuts. You lose your shirt playing A479, but he hits the nuts and rarely gets burned playing this garbage.
I also play in a home game with a person like the one you described. He can't do anything wrong. I honestly cannot begin to estimate the odds he has overcome. The number of 2 and 3 outers this person can hit in a given session would blow your mind.
This has gone on for about a year. In addition, we had a player who ran this way for about a year previous to that. He eventually turned cold and now he usually loses.
There's nothing you can do to beat someone who is lucky. You just have to wait until they stop getting lucky. Sometimes, you can wait a long long time. Sometimes, they remain always lucky.
natedogg
We're thinking of having some of the boys rough him up a little. That or switch to golf or fantasy baseball or something.
Stack 'o Chips, I don't suppose you are from Eagle, Idaho? We have a guy named Bo in our regular game who one a tournament recently by hitting a one-card-out on the river. Luckiest guy I know. It's as if it is BoDisneyland everyday for this guy.
he sounds like a classic jerkstore.
three handed jammed on third street.
xxA xxA xx3 (wild player called all aces' raises)
at this point a long time pro (ltp) remarked that "the threes are a 3 to 1 favorite over both the pair of aces".
now this guy was a loose goose and it was (i think) understood that he wasnt rolled up, he just got sucked into the hand.
so my question is, what is the equity distribution here? (i only have a computer program for holdem, not stud)
i would guess maybe 42/42/15 or something.
brad
If I remember right, the low pair is a money favorite over 2 of the same high pair. I know it's not a 3 to 1 favorite, however. Some 3-flushes and 3-straights are also money favorites over 2 of the same pair of aces.
Remember: Stud is all about having live cards.
I remember the statement in your post being in the game when this was said but I forgot who said it. Who was it?
Ask KB, he either knows or can figure it out on the spot.
the pair of threes are still a healthy dog.
.
George,
I wonder about this: If we assume that both Axx's have another Ace, and the 3xx has another 3, or a flush draw, then I would think that the 3xx is not a favorite or even break even. Given the money in the pot, and the number of cards to come, Mr. 33x almost has to get another 3 to win....and a flush draw can have problems if one of these guys has Axx suited....
Asked another way: Would you call two raises from your bring-in with (3x)3 against Axx and Axx? I wouldn't.
Mark
I agree. I wouldn't call in this spot either. Perhaps I'm too conservative, but I don't want to rely on what is possibly a 2-outer against 2 other players with overpairs.
Scottro
well really he probably had a high pocket pair. (still an underpair, but here he can hit trips and get paid off well, or he could put one of us on straight flush draw and other on pocket pair)
i think he brought in in for full bet, first Axx called, i raised, 3xx called, first Axx 3 bet, i capped it, and 3xx called two cold. something like that i think.
brad
"Asked another way: Would you call two raises from your bring-in with (3x)3 against Axx and Axx? I wouldn't."
Me neither, but I'd often raise before I'd fold.
Assuming 3 hands consisting of xxA xxA and xx3...
If both players with an ace showing have aces and you have 3's, this is the likely scenario:
The pairs of aces will never make trip aces...obviously. Assuming that neither pair of aces has a 3 as their kicker, you have 44 cards left in the deck after 3rd street, two of which are the other 3's. You will hit trips by the river almost 20% of the time, and win with this hand probably about 97-98% of the time you get it.
Next, each hand has about a 60% chance of making 2 pair by the river depending on how live the cards are. So the chances that you make 2 pair and both your opponents do not improve is about 10%.
So, close to 30% of the time you will win the hand on a showdown. This alone is very close to the 33% you would intuitively need in a 3-way pot. But, this analysis has yet to consider 4 important factors that make this an easy situation to be jamming the pot on 3rd street with the MONEY FAVORITE.
1) Your hand is the easiest to play. If either of them makes an open pair, you throw your hand away and save some money.
2) You will never call a bet on the river with a lone pair of 3's, while they are forced to call on the river if you bet. So, they'll be putting in an extra bet with the worst of it more often than you will.
3) The antes (and any other dead money that may be in the pot from 3rd street) give you a small overlay, probably enough that having 30% odds of winning the hand are sufficient.
4) This does not include straight/flush possibilities. If you have a straight-flush kicker with your 3's, this adds a few more percentage points to your odds of winning the hand.
Although it may seem counterintuitive, THE PAIR OF 3'S IS LIKELY THE MONEY FAVORITE ON 3RD STREET. It is also easier to play the pair of 3's than either of the aces, because you know when to lay your hand down. As I said before, some 3-straights and 3-flushes are also money favorites over 2 pairs of aces on 3rd street.
I think the lesson learned here is, PLAY HANDS THAT CONTAIN LIVE CARDS.
By the way, if someone wants to run 3 hands like AsAc9h, AdAh8c, and 3d3s4d through a simulator, I would venture to guess that the pair of 3's has close to 40% equity on 3rd street, with the pairs of aces each around 30%. I wish I had a simulator to do this myself but I don't.
On a sidenote, if anyone has a simulator that they would like for me to have I would be grateful, as I lost the one I had on my computer a while back.
x
A well thought out response, as always. But, doesn't it matter what limit you are playing? At the limits you play, there is a much higher ante structure which certainly provides enough dead money to make the hand profitable. But, at 10-20 or lower, there is not as much money (in relation to the bet) in the pot when you have to call a jammed pot on third street.
Secondly, is the 60% figure correct? According to the table in Poker Essays, on pg. 133, the chances of making two pair with a pair and a worthless card is 42% and with one of your rank exposed it is 45%. Presumably, the increase is due to the fact that you make two pair more often at the expense of trips. So, assuming that both of your rank are gone, we would expect the two pair percentage to increase, but will it increase to 60%? I dont know, and I haven't done the calculations, and I dont have a simulator, but this figure seems high. If is correct, then so be it.
If this figure is incorrect, and the real percentage is around 50%, then you are about a 4-1 dog. In low limit, the equitable factors you mention may not counteract this. But, if the 60% figure is correct, then I reserve the right to change my opinion (!) In low limit I would fold if I knew that both of my opponents had a pair of aces unless they were weak opponents, or my kicker was related to the threes,i.e. straightflush cards. If I could get free cards etc. this would make it even more playable.
Of course, this may be why I am still a low limit player, as I might be throwing away a profitable hand.
Pat
You are never a 4-1 dog in this hand. Just the odds of making trips should let you win one time in five.
By the way, if the odds of making 2 pair are 50% instead of 60%, then your odds of winning the hand with 2 pair actually go up about 2.5% (to about 12.5%), because you will make 2 pair less often, but it will be good much more often when you do make it.
I got the 60% based somewhat on an estimation of assuming there were 43 cards left that all could make you 2 pair. I agree that something closer to 50% is probably more likely now that I think about it though, if we take into account that there will be some dead cards along the way. (I also didn't account for times when you make 2 pair and trips in the same hand...a full house...so this is a little off).
A few nights ago, I was waiting to play hold em and a seat came open on 4-8 dealers choice so I decided to do that rather than read the paper for the 50th time.
Anyways, every time I got the button, I chose hold em. After about the 5th time, one of the other players made a comment along the lines of "hold em is a game where the button has the advantage, why are you being unfair by choosing hold em" or something like that. He may have just been mad because I kept choosing hold em and then folding preflop..
Is having the button not an advantage in O/8 as well? Or Omaha hi? Should I feel any guilt about continually choosing hold em when it is clear that the vast majority of the players (probably 8 of the other 9; one chose Omaha hi) want to play O/8?
David
You have to understand a couple of things about this particular game, Dave.
One: almost none of these players have the slightest clue about O/8. How many times have you heard them describe the game as "Bingo"? That should tell you all you need to know about their skills in hand selection, betting, and knowledge of position. They are lifetime residents of A4CT, for the most part.
Two: they are in the O/8 game for the action. Like moths to the light, they crave the big pots. Raising Rudy and his ilk are in there to jam it up. When you choose HE, they get PO'd that for one hand, there probably won't be a big pot.
I think that the majority of people underestimate the importance of position in Omaha, period. The button is still tremendously important, almost as much so as in HE, IMO. Others may disagree. Personally, I think you are making a huge mistake picking HE in this game at any time. The mistakes these guys make is O/8 are much bigger and more frequent than in HE.
Of course, I've seen the hands you play, too. So maybe you are better off picking HE. LOL.
Heh, you got me. I'm trying to learn it a bit more because I can easily believe you that they are playing terribly, and as you say, the pots are rather large compared to the hold em pots. I tend to choose HE (admittedly) in part because they hate to play it and a little show of strength can often take the pot just so all the O8 players can be done with the evil HE hand.
Of course, they could always play the showhand game! (:
In England, in dealer's choice games, Hold Em is rarely chosen. I think the main reason is that the people who play want (a) action, and (b) to be able to find an excuse to play lots of hands. This does not suit Hold Em (I am talking about pot limit, now). Some even regard choosing Hold Em as being poor form, not because it gives the dealer the advantage, but because it reduces the action!
Also, given the same blind structure, Hold Em is a much smaller game than Omaha or Omaha Hi-Lo. In both forms of Omaha, position is very important, if not as important as Hold Em. If your opponents do not realise this, they must be bad players almost by definition.
I think that against bad players, you will get three or four times as much action in Omaha (either kind) as in Hold Em. Your net expectation will be greater than with Hold Em, even if your edge in skill is a bit lower. Just guard against the tendency most people have in such games to play the hand on which they are dealer, because it was "their choice".
Oh no!! Not again!
The positional advantage at holdem is much greater than in Omahaha.
Don't feel guilty but be aware that the other players may feel ill for your choice and not give you action when you need it. Choose holdem as much as you can but still be one of the boys.
- Louie
What is smart to limp in with 1-5 stud. Also what do u raise with in early/middle/lete postions and lst but not least is this game beatable with dealer tips and rake taken into account. I feel this game his weaker players the holdem at the casino esp Fri or Sat night when I am there. I have lots of experince and 7 card stud from my home game but we play with $1 ante and a pot limit structure from there so I am not sure what the sateregy on 3rd street is I naturally I am tight beacuse I see how bad 3rd street play can lead to lossing lots later on. I am wondereing if I am to tight for casino any help with my play would be very helpful. thank you.
You should be playing tight if there is a raise made before you. If not, you should limp in for the bring in with many hands, so long as the hand plays well in a multiway pot. Most of the time you will be playing multiway,so you must play hands that can improve to a big hand, and that need implied odds. Even low three flushes and gut shot draws are good hands if they are live and you are willing to throw them away if they do not improve.
This game is definitely beatable, and I am sure many of the posters here have beat it. You will have fairly large swings.
Just remember that hands such as a pair of jacks is not a good hand in this game if your cards or kickers are partially dead. As an example, I would limp with a pair of jacks in late position if there are multiple callers. If there was a raise before me by a K or A I would fold. Also, you dont want to raise in late position every time with a big pair if the bet to you is still just the bring-in. Try to wait to see what happens, so that you have a chance to thin the field. You want to trap bets, and not force out some of the terrible hands that people play. This is not the case in other stud games, even at 5-10. Also, keep an eye out for tells, as they will be plentiful and will be helpful. Do not try tricky plays and almost never bluff. Give tight players some respect if they raise, and dont try to steal the bring-in.
It is a tough game to beat but it can be done. If you are new to stud, you shold play in this game until you get comfortable with the correct thought processes and the right plays. Once you do this you should move up to 5-10 ASAP.
Most of the players will be very easy to read when they have a hand,and virtually impossible to read if they dont. A caller can have anything, but a raiser will almost always have a big pair or better, and wil almost always have a pair of some kind on third street. Once there is a bet in front of you then you can frequently raise to make it a $10 bet.
By no means is this a complete strategy, but it is a start. Just remember to play tight if there is a raise and limp with good mutiway hands, and you should quickly advance.
Good Luck,
Pat
Excellent advice. I have been playing 1-5 for a little over a year now, and have been pretty successful (so far) by following pretty much the same guidelines. The game plays about as subtle as a chainsaw. If you pay attention, you can USUALLY know what is going on. Not much to bluff for in the beginning, so no sense trying, and if somebody bets, it is usually because they have something. The key is to get out before you get hurt meaning, don't try to make a hand. You will find on 3rd street, alot of players will come in for a buck. If you start with a low 3-to-a-something and don't catch on 4th, be prepared to bail for a bet. Bet to limit the field if you think you are top hand (If you leave people around and get raised on the end- you have probably been beat by some buttmunch chasing a double gutshot straight, or who tripped his pair of 3s). You will see idiots chase with nothing and catch 5 cards perfect to the river to make miracle hands. Do not let this bother you, and do not follow their lead and think "it can happen to me". Just remember, even the fish have to eat sometimes. It is a game that will try your patience, but can pay off. Also, if you start playing enough, remember the faces. Alot of these people are regulars. I play in New Orleans at Harrah's. I know if I sit a table with the regular sour faced rocks, not much is gonna happen. I look for the tourists who are there for a good time. they are there to have a few drinks and enjoy themselves (Mardi gras beads and high-ball drinks are the dead giveaway). Tends to be a little looser and a little more profitable, as well as generally more of a fun experience. Sorry if I got too much off the subject, and I hope this helps a little. Good luck! Derek
I take back everything I said. Don't play this game. It is full of suck outs and idiots that will call your full bets to the river with a pair of 2's only to trip on the end against your aces up. I know that in the long term these players pay you off, but in the short term (like my past weekend) they can really kick you in the nuts! Actually this is just me whining about this weekend, but know that this game is full of this kind of cheese. Good luck. Derek
I find that the variance is great in this game. I try to make people pay for drawing. If you have the best hand make them pay to look at cards Free cards Kill you. Suckouts happen but if you have a decent hand then raise to limit the field BUT be aware of the game you are in because alot of times at this level you cant run them off the pot. BUT MAKE THEM PAY TO LOOK AT CARDS.
jmho BILLY
You need to raise right away with your big pairs. You can obviously call with quality draws like live 3-flushes and big live 3-straights.
Which weak hands can you call? Philosophically its those that need to catch only one good card before they are bettable or raiseable hands. A hand like 568 is pretty weak since even when you snag your 7 you still only have a SMALL draw. Also 337 is pretty bad because while trips is good is quite a long shot and two-pair 7sUp isn't going to win anything. You would need a BIG kicker to play the small pairs since two-big pair is worth a LOT more than two small pair.
(Excepting some $1 weak calls:) Philosophically in this game you need to have the best hand or clearly the best draw when the betting starts. This means that certainly MOST of the hands you show down are the ones YOU have initiated the betting or raising.
- Louie
At the risk of making David Zanetti jump for joy, I thought I'd write a little report about the introduction of Mississippi 7 stud to our home game.
For those who don't know, Mississippi is a game invented by a guy David Zanetti who is convinced it's the best no limit game ever and posts here about it all the time claiming as much.
It's just like 7 stud except for two tweaks. You get 2 cards on 4th street, and the last card is dealt face up, so you end up with two cards down and five cards up.
This is unequivocally a great game. We play it pot-limit and no-limit style. Both styles are great but I slightly favor the pot-limit style.
The one less round of betting and seeing five cards in two rounds completely changes the texture of the game. It is a fast-paced game. Players make aggressive moves early and there's all kinds of depth to it, just like any good no limit game.
Mississippi has become the most common game we play other than no-limit hold'em.
As much as the 5 cards in two turns helps make the game exciting, the absolute humdinger is the last card up. This change in 7cs may indeed be the single greatest poker innovation of the last 25 years. I'm not exaggerating.
The last card up makes 7cs much more of a true poker game. Sorry to all you 7cs fans but the sad fact is that in 7cs, 6th and 7th street play pretty much the same. It's kind of a let down. It's pretty straight forward and there's not a lot to it. In 7CSFAP, the authors pretty much admit that 7th street play is not all that complex.
With the last card up (and playing big bet style), it's just as much a true guts and glory poker game as NLHE. It's very easy to determine the nuts, which allows for a big move on the later streets and thus big ballsy bluff-catching calls too.
I cannot stress enough how much the last upcard changes the game. It is so much more exciting and complex when the last card is up.
If you play in a homegame, give it a try. We loved it.
natedogg
The last card up makes 7cs much more of a true poker game. Sorry to all you 7cs fans but the sad fact is that in 7cs, 6th and 7th street play pretty much the same. It's kind of a let down. It's pretty straight forward and there's not a lot to it. In 7CSFAP, the authors pretty much admit that 7th street play is not all that complex.
I don't have my copy of 7CSFAP on hand, but I recall the authors saying that river play is anything but automatic and if you plan on winning you better get good at it. I'll check the reference later.
I've found that there is a lot of money to be made on the river. Of course it requires good hand reading skills. Too many players check a winning two pair when they will be called by a lesser two pair. There are also many average players that can be pushed off a pot with a small winning hand.
I agree that 6th street is not complex. It is important to know when it is time to give it up, but very easy to tell.
That being said, I would like to see Mississippi spread in a card room. It does seem like a great game.
Do you then have 2 big bets instead of three.
Might be fun to play hi/low also, have you tried it?
Sounds like the first new game I have heard of that I would really like to try.
Agree 7 st play not always automatic.
How much betting remains for the last card? Aren't the players pot stuck or all in by then?
One big plus, the game would be a lot faster. One less round of betting, and players wouldn't be able to spend five minutes squeezing out their river cards.
Tom D
Natedogg,
How does having the last card up increase action?
I play in a regular pot-limit 7-stud, 7-stud hi-lo (either declare or 8 or better), and play on the river is very complicated. I would think that dealing the last card up would make it easier for the weaker players to get away from losing hands and also make it easier for mediocre players to value bet. There's a lot of money to be made from other players' mistakes with the last card down.
The big bet nature of the game is probably a bigger reason for the extra complexity on 7th street that I perceived. What you say makes sense.
Also, playing pot-limit 7cs hi/lo 8 or better, the river would be incredibly complex. This is probably 1000 times more complex than playing limit 7cs on the river.
However, I do think that the last card up makes it a better game. Since we never played much pot limit 7cs normally, the Mississippi version may only seem more exciting to me because of the big bet nature. The faster rounds are great tho.
natedogg
I play in a game that is 2-10 7 card stud with a dollar ante and two dollar bring in. With a high ante such as this, how should I adjust my play concerning which hands I begin with? What should my minimum requirements be in general terms.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
the ante is not that much greater than normal but enough to adjust. id say to play more aggressively when you come in and not lower your standards much from mine or not at all. id steal alot more early if the the game lets you. good luck.
Playing 4-8 O8 with the usual crowd that is apparently not very good (like myself) at it. In the BB I have A222 with the ace suited to one of the deuces. I know enough to know that trips in your hand is not good, but on the other hand, I probably have the only nut low draw (although grave danger of being counterfeited of course!).
The hand played out (I flopped the low and got two of my suit on the flop but didn't hit; I stayed in for a quarter of the pot as unbelievably someone else had A2 as well). At showdown, I turned my cards over with an apologetic "big blind hand". Several other players declared that I had a monster and should have been raising preflop because "probably no one else has the nut low". Please tell me they are wrong? My strategy in these games is attempting to follow Dunc's advice of playing for scoop hands; preflop, this didn't seem to be one.
Gosh this is a good question. If you are in a loose game, as most Omaha 8 or better games tend to be, then it probably IS worth it to throw a raise in here.
You have to remember that the reasons for raising preflop in Omaha 8 or better are very different from holdem. In Omaha, IF A RAISE WILL NOT THIN THE FIELD, you want to raise preflop to tie people to the pot if you get a flop to your liking. That is why I like to raise with A2 with suited ace type hands in LATE position but never in early position. In early position preflop raises will usually knock out A3 type hands that would normally play for one bet (in the game I play in.) I definitely don't want them to do that.
I suppose I might consider throwing that extra money in if the game were loose. I can't imagine that, if it's a mistake, it's a big one.
-SmoothB-
I would not raise pre flop. With this hand U are probably the only hand with nut low draw. I would not want to run off customers if the low comes. If the high draw comes U may have nutz draw there also. I would waite till after the flop then punish them. If flop don`t hit U then U get out cheap. If U want to be a big bully then raise pre flop. If U think most of cutomers will stay for a raise I would say ok to raise, because u have a draw at both ends. the only other 3 of a kind I would stay on is AAA2 suited.
Coyote
This one is close IMO, Dave. Yes, you probably are the only one drawing to A2, but not a certainty as you found out. Note to Smooth and others: the crowd in this game is NOT, and I repeat, NOT, going to fold to a raise out of the BB. In fact, there are a couple of regulars (was Rene in the game?) who would be more likely to limp re-raise just to build a pot.
There are still 3 Ace's and 1 deuce that immediately kill your hand for low. And flopping a deuce is no bargain either: if the miracle board of 2-x-x comes where x is a pair, you are still on the low end of any full house. So basically, you are looking at best at getting half the pot if a low flop comes, with some possible scoop chances for a flush.
As others have said, probably not a big mistake one way or the other whether you raise pre-flop out of the BB, IMO. Your hand is certainly not a "monster" as the opposition claimed. See what I told you about their hand selection abilities?
Unless the game was such that a raise from the big blind would get a call from everyone, AND would not prevent people drawing to a second best low after the flop, I would not raise from the BB.
AAA2 is a whole load better than A222 (assuming both include a suited ace) because a set of aces is so much better than a set of deuces, and (more importantly because it will matter more frequently) a pair of aces has a sporting chance of taking the high end on its own.
That said, A222 suited is obviously way better than some random trash, and very nice to pick up in the BB.
Oh no!! Not again!
Strong hands in early position may well throw a re-raise in here. They then have an Ace + other good low cards (maybe the case 2) and you will now be playing from card and position weakness.
IMO, you're getting the best odds possible, with no money down and no committment. The potential re-raise is enough reason to not raise in the first place.
I do not raise very often with just A-2. It is bad enough that you give away your hand, but it also adds to your deviation.
Dave,
id play and raise behind the field but call from up front. position is the factor with this hand as you need to see the betting on each round to make expert decisions.
Thanks for the advice (although I think expert knowledge is more what I need to make expert decisions, and I don't have that in ANY position!)
David
Possibly from a late postion post I might raise with A222s. Probably not. I just like the infinite odds rather than any small +EV to raising.
Ray, given BB position and the betting comes double raised to you. Would you call, raise or fold this hand? We can assume it will probably get capped at say 4 bets.
Definitely not a raising in the BB hand. However, I would accept A2 suited in any BB hand over many alternatives.
What are the biggest differences between 1-5 and 5-10 7cs? I'm wondering about this in terms of quality of players, action and variance. I realize that time and place have an impact on the nature of any game but generally what skills are neccessary at 5-10 that you don't see at the 1-5 level. Does a tight aggresive player with good starting hand discipline and structure have better results in a tighter 5-10 game? Are the advantages of this good starting hand discipline and structure diminished in a loose 1-5 game? Any insight on this is appreciated.
Dan
Well, most places that I've played the $5/$10 game will have an ante, while the $1-5 game does not. This in itself changes the game a lot, as it is actually beneficial for you if people fold often, as opposed to 1-5 where your main concern is getting called with your good hands, and to that end you do a lot of trapping. With antes you can actually play a bit more straightforwardly, but be aggressive.
At 5-10 you will usually have at least 2 or 3 reasonable players, and the game is usually tighter, but not tight overall. Semi-bluffing has value at 5-10 as does bluffing. You can make some plays, such as betting on sixth street with a pair into a draw and then betting out on seventh as a bluff if you dont improve.
Overall, the 5-10 games I have played in in the east, namely AC and Connecticut, have been fairly loose, and a good win rate is fairly easy to come by. the games in Las Vegas are much tighter, and you will play against some real rocks. With any relatively advanced ability at poker you should be able to beat virtually any 5-10 game. Just knowing how to semibluff and understanding how and when to knock players out will give you an edge, as the biggest mistake that I see, and I see it in every 5-10 game I have ever played, is not raising or reraising to limit the field.
The fact that you can post on this forum means that you probably can play 5-10. You should give it a try.
Pat
Very good post patrick!
Your writing "They don't raise or reraise enough to limit the field" is one of my winning keys at lower limits.
Marco
This is a 7cs game with a couple variations. you get two cards on 4th street instead of one, and the 7th card is dealt face up.
Pot limit, dealer ante $5, low card brings it in for $5. The bring-in has the option to raise when it gets back to him.
I have (Ks6s)9h. My K is live and one spade is out.
A deuce opens to my left. A 9 calls, a J calls, an A calls, I call.
Stud is not really my game. However, I assume that calling $5 for a pot of $25 to get 2 more cards is totally worth it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
Anyway, I catch almost perfect, getting JsTs. The 9 pairs, the J catches two more of his suit, and the A catches two blanks.
The open pair of nines bets the pot ($30). The three clubs call, the ace folds, I call.
I'm calling 30 to win a pot of 90 with a K high flush draw and a gutshot straight. I have 3 live queens and 6 live spades out of 34 unseen cards. Given implied odds is this a good call?
I catch a Q on sixth street and the 99 catches the A of clubs. This makes me fear the club draw less which did not catch yet.
I bet $75 and they both call.
The river pairs my T. The 99 catches a blank and the flush draw shows QcJc7c8xJx. His cards are so totally dead I don't fear that he's full. The 99 may have filled with the A but I really put him on aces up.
The 99 has only 180 in front of him. I bet the pot of 315.
Good read on the river? I'm going to call the 180 if the 99 bets or not. So I probably should check and let him hang himself if we're heads up. But the flush draw was a very bad player who might conceivably overcall with two pair or something.
natedogg
Nate,
in the future dont even consider calling with these kind of holdings on the first three, only trouble ahead and wasted money.
biggest pairs that improve and nut flush cards win the money in this game.
Thank you for responding.
When you say "in this game" you mean pot-limit 7cs?
So I shouldn't call one small bet getting 5:1 with TWO cards to come? This is a pot limit structure so my implied odds are huge too. I actually hit close to perfect giving me a flush draw and a gutshot straight against another flushdraw whose A was dead and a pair of nines.
Anyway, I know for sure I'd fold this hand in a limit setting any day, even for the two cards, but in pot limit I figured it was borderline.
Thanks for your advice. I'm really trying to work out what is worth playing on 3rd street.
natedogg
no in pot your implied odds go way up but so does the cost to hit a hand on future betting rounds and you almost never get odds for your calls hence only hands that are best and can bet usually can go past 4th st. so you make your money with big hands and bluffing out those that cant stand the heat. see, in your hand you hit perfect and might have to go against a bigger flush draw that could easily hit with yours and you would lose all your chips. plus it was alot more than 5 to 1 to hit even what you did and that was not much to play with. too bad i didnt get to see you in colma, i looked forward to you saying hello.
Notice that even when you hit the LONGSHOT perfect-perfect your good hand was still not worth raising. How would you like it if you snagged perfect-good such as if your T was a club? Now how do you like playing your gut-draw against a pair and a likely flush draw?
This is a different hand than if your K was an Ace and your 9 was a Ten, where you are drawing to the likely best flush and straight, and can snag an Ace for top pair.
I think your conceptual error was this: not only do you GET two-cards for $5, your NEED 2 good cards to catch up. Look at it from the other perspective, every-body else is getting 2 cards for $5 also. This cannot be a good situation for everybody; so its those with weak hands like yours that suffer.
I doubt the big bet on the river was wise unless the loose player will over-call with Jacks-up.
- Louie
No problem or question here, just a story that came back to me after running into a guy I hadn't seen for some time.
The scene: Hollywood Park Casino, c. 1995
The game: 75-150 stud
Player A - a deadly low-profile expert who, along with a few other pros, ran over this game and the 80-160 hi-low which were spread nearly every day at this time before all the producers went broke.
Player B - one of the producers. An attorney with way too much money, who paid dearly for his poker-as-craps style of jamming up pots with any hand that "might make something". Within 30 minutes after showing up at the club his table would be full with a list a mile long.
The hand:
Player A is sitting two spots to the right of B. He's first to act after the opener with (Ac As) Ah. He limps. B raises with (X X) Kd. Smelling a playback from A, the rest of the table including the opener drop out. A reraises, B calls.
Fourth street:
A: (Ac As) Ah Qc
B: (X X) Kd 9d
A bets, B raises. A reraises, B reraises. Both a king and nine were dead from other player's doors and B was known to pound flush draws heavily, especially against high cards when he had them duplicated in his own hand. When his opponents paired or caught scary it didn't stop him. A gave B credit for the Ad. A reraises, B reraises. When B finally quit and called each had put in nine half bets.
Fifth street:
A: (Ac As) Ah Qc Qs
B: (X X) Kd 9d rag
A bets, B raises, A reraises, B calls.
Sixth street:
A: (Ac As) Ah Qc Qs rag
B: (X X) Kd 9d rag Jd
A bets, B raises, A reraises, B reraises, A reraises, B reraises and says "You want to go all in?", nodding toward A's remaining stack (about $3200, which B had covered). A knows B is a maniac, but doesn't see him making this move with an ace high flush. Suspecting that B just grabbed a miracle gutshot straight flush. He declines the offer and merely calls B's final raise.
River: A squeezes out the 10d!! Elated with this catch, he bets. B raises. A reraises, B reraises and makes his offer again. Now A is suspecting a miracle setup: B with rolled up kings, now full. A accepts and pushes the rest of his chips in. B covers. There is over $11,000 in the pot.
Showdown:
A: (Ac As) Ah Qc Qs rag (10d)
B: (Jc Jh) Kd 9d rag Jd (Js)
Every sucker has his day..
nt
I live in Key West and I felt the pain all the way down here. I actually responded verbally.
If I was "A" , as a revenge , I would have put the B'daughter pregnant . That was the best thing to do after that ...
I'm in the small blind with 889Q rainbow. 7 players call! I put in the half bet.
Flop is 348, two diamonds. I bet out, BB raises, 4 callers, button reraises, I cap it, all call. Not sure I played correctly here. I have the temporary nut high. I know I'm playing for only half the pot, and I probably need to pair the board to win. On the other hand, there's so many callers it may justify my draw.
Turn is the case 8! I bet out, BB calls, 2 more callers, button calls. Here I was hoping the button had the nut low and would raise.
River K diamonds. I bet out, BB calls, 1 other call, button calls. BB shows 33xx for bottom full, button had nut low. I suppose I could have gotten a check-raise on the turn.
Comments welcome on my play thoughout the hand.
That hand should of been mucked, but in little blind maybe OK. Then floping trips U have to see the river if it don`t get jammed to much. I been looking for quads for a month & ain`t seen`em yet. Good show.
Coyote.
It is better to call the flop and take a card off. Note that no other card than the single 8 will still give you the nuts! if you only call, you will have a chance to C-R the turn or river and win more money when someone's low is locked. SOON
I think you overplayed your hand w/ top set on this board. You in fact don't have odds to jam your boat draw since you've already lost half the pot(KEY POINT). The key here is that you have 7 players in the pot, but you're only getting 3.5 - 1 on your draw since half the money is going to the low. However, that being said, you'll probably see the turn. I'd most likely bet out and call the raises when it gets back to me or just check and call.
Any low card puts a possible straight up, any diamond puts a flush up and any higher card could hit someone playing low w/ a high pair. Your 3's were dead so you were playing for a blank(some random high non-diamond) or a pair other than 3's. You were actually in a lot of trouble w/ this hand. Low top sets are a lot of trouble. Especially w/ a 34 out there. 34 makes a lot of straights when the 3rd or 4th low card hits the board.
Anyway - I think you probably see the turn and the river since it got capped on the flop. If the turn came a blank - no diamond, no low card, I'd still not go crazy w/ the hand but I'd probably bet one time and call when the nut low raised.
Your excessive action on the flop made the nut low think he was getting quartered which is why he backed off once you bet out again. You bet and call teh flop then he might put you on trips and raise on the turn trapping the 3's (no business at all in the pot) for more bets since he's there for the duration if he called all the heat on the flop w/ his bottom set.
coming from a holdem player whats better to learn omaha or stud?thanks
jc
Clearly stud as omaha is virtually a dead game.
Pat
To me, stud is infintely more fun to play, but omaha is a much easier game to win at.
Take your choice.
As a holdem player you will likely do better initially in omaha than in stud. Like holdem, omaha has fixed position and community cards. Stud however is more widely spread and should be learned if you want to improve your game selection opportunities. If you put the time and effort into it, e.g. remembering exposed cards, adjusting to dynamic position, etc., you will do much better in the long run learning stud.
Around here, in St. Louis, the Omaha 5-10 Game is MUCH better than the stud 1-5 games... I think there is much more money to be made in Omaha, but that is Just here. I think Hi/Lo Split games are great to learn, because the opposition may not be as knowledgable about the games as you are, therefore an expert can profit more on the games...
I don't have a brother named Chuck.
I think St. Louis is the only place where you might be better off concentrating on O/8.
If you are on the east coast there are easily more stud games than holdem games and you won't find many O/8 games bigger than 5/10. WHile the stud games are oftent the biggest in the casino at almost any level...
I think if you live on the east coast and only play holem you are handicapping yourself.
Omaha is though MUCH MUCH easier.
On the west coast, O/8 is gaining in popularity. Normally you can find smaller games in most clubs, but some spread higher limit 75-150 or pot limit.
I suggest learning the game that is spread in your area. If you are on the west coast, I recommend learning O/8 - great revenue source in most casinos. There tend to be several calling stations in any game you play.
2-3 weeks ago, a few players on here posted some advice on omaha 8 or better and i read it as i was losing about $400 in 5-10 on pp. i thought about it all week and decided my luck this weekend and have spent too many hrs on pp but i am up 350 and that was half on 2 3/6 tables and the 2nd half on 1 5/10. i basically made myself prove i can play while limiting mistakes before going to 5-10 and i did. i even wrote mistakes down if i made them. i was not a terrible player before but i would call raises with 2-3-8-10 trying to flop that miracle A-4 or call a raise with A-3-7-J trying for another perfect flop. i still play these in a loose passive game in late position but is it. anyway, thanks for a few more tips that have helped a lot!!! also, i was up 500 but suffered a few low full houses on the river and countless flopping to both nut draws and somehow getting quartered or shut out. i kept my head and made a comeback to up 350. i was down to only up 175.
I play 10-20 with this guy who is straight up a honest guy and good solid holdem player. he plays 20-40 on pp. he is usually a winner on pp. he said he played his first hand that he did not trust was legit. he was playing at a table of a well known good player. basically, he had pocket kings and this player was in the big blind and capped it with 77 after it had been raised twice to him. the other guy had q-q. flop: j-3-4. it was capped on the flop w/66 calling. turn was 2. capped again. river was a 6. capped again because he could not see him holding 6's or 5-6. he said he should have just called the raise on the river. he was up $500 before this hand and lost it and just quit so he would not go on tilt. this guy with the 6's is considered a good player and was not on tilt because he was a slight winner. i asked these questions because it sounded unbelievable to me. he is an honest guy and would not be lying. i only play 5-10 so i dont worry about this stuff either way. he knows he will not play with that player again and does not know if he will play 20-40 again on there. just letting you guys know another internet cheating hand if that is what it was.
Which poker room?
While this story is very interesting, it is only half complete. Did your friend contact management at pp? get a hand history, etc.? and what was their response? Only did will get the complete story and only this is fair to the site.
i do agree that the action is odd, but given the action, why on earth would your friend think his pair of kings was best?
Given the action most people would assume that the worst hand that is best among his opponents is AA.
What seems fishy is this play from a "winning" player!
You should ask your friend for the hand number and post it for the rest of us to take a look at.
Paul Talbot
he agreed he overplayed the hand but the guy was just calling all the raises. i will see if he got a hand number. it did not sound like he wanted to pursue it. also, the story was not exactly like i told it but close. the guy had 2 outs and those could have been dead. i was trying to remember exactly what happened but that was the jist of it.
This home game hand has been bothering me for some time now, and I am wondering if I played it right. The game is "Grand Island," which may be a made up game, I'm not sure. Each player gets five cards face down and on no information each must discard one. The game then becomes Ohama Hi-Lo (8 or better, of course) wiht the four remaining cards.
The game was pot-limit, and everyone started with about $40 on the table with the dealer anting $1 each hand. I hand JJQ6 with the Q6 of the same suit (not hearts). I don't remember the pre-flop action (or why I was even in this hand), but the flop came little card (not a heart), and the ten and jack of hearts. So I have top set (the nuts for now) but no draw at a low, straight, or flush. By the time the betting has gotten to me it's been raised twice (three is max) with a lot of players putting money in. I raised the pot for about $40, which if called would put most people close enough to all-in that it was all going in on the turn no matter what fell. My question is, given that I have no draws except to a house and I could easily get halved by a runner runner low or beaten by a straight or flush... should I really have bet the pot or should I have just called and waited for a house to come in?
Hi Hummer,
I never played pot limit, but this looks straightforward. First, your hand plays best against fewer opponents. Second, if you call the flop you're not likely to fold on the turn even if a scare card hits. Third, the raise puts you virtually all in eliminating the complications of future betting. This would seem to reduce your choices to folding or raising. I'm going to raise.
In a hi-lo game, you have a dreadful hand. Fold now and wait for a hand that has some potential. If you're going to play a high-only hand, wait till you get one w/ 4 cards above T and a pair or double suited.
Disclaimer : I've never played O8 pot limit, but I'm sure you don't want to be in there w/ no low shot and a shakey high hand.
I've been playing O8 online far about two weeks now (1-2 and .5-1) and I have two questions on two specific situations that I seem to be having trouble with:
1) A-2-4-Xos as a starting hand. Is this hand playable at all times from all positions, even though it has little chance of scooping? Or should I only play it only in late position against a mid-to large size field?
2) Three pair against a made flush. Do you normally draw to a full house when someone else has obviously made their flush?
Any advice would be appreciated.
"1) A-2-4-Xos as a starting hand. Is this hand playable at all times from all positions, even though it has little chance of scooping?"
Yes. (I'd play it unless I knew with almost certainty that someone else had about the same thing). Get right off it if you miss the flop.
By the way, 6-7-9-Xos doesn't have much scoop potential if it hits the flop and makes a straight or a boat, because a better low is extremely likely. However, A-2-4-Xos does have scoop potential if it hits the flop and makes a straight or a boat, because it may also win for low. The secret is to see the flop cheaply with the hand and get off it right away if you miss the flop.
"2) Three pair against a made flush. Do you normally draw to a full house when someone else has obviously made their flush?"
Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Difficult to answer without more information. Depends somewhat on your position and the position of the flush holder. Also depends if low is possible, if someone else has the nuts low, and where the holder of the low is seated. Also depends if we're talking about after the flop or after the turn.
After the turn the odds are 6.33 to 1 against making the boat. If no low is possible and you figure the holder of the flush will pay you off if the board pairs, then you'll be able to collect another big bet on the river. In this case, to call there should be 5 big bets already in the pot.
If low is possible, you don't want to get whipsawed on the turn. If you're in a position where you can get whipsawed between the flush holder and the nut low, there hardly can be enough in the pot to make your boat draw worth while to call.
If you're on the button, and the low is seated right before you, and if the board pairs, then the flush might check and call a single big bet, but might balk at calling two big bets while facing two more big bets (future raises). On the other hand, a naive flush holder might call the double bet on the river and then call another double bet on the river. Thus it depends on how the flush holder will play.
Assuming the flush holder refuses to be put in a position to get "whipsawed" on the river and will only call one big bet on the river if the board pairs, and assuming low is there, and assuming that nobody will raise after you call, then you probably need 12 big bets in the pot to call after the turn.
A lot of "ifs" and they were all for after the turn. There is a different set of conditions for after the flop. In that case, there would be three cards all of the same suit on the flop and you would be paired to all three. Kind of an unusual occurance. Might have happened to me, but I can't recall it. I might call one small bet after the flop if I had position.
I just re-read Ray Zee's book again. It's really, really helpful. Before you have played much, you miss some of the nuances. Then, as you play, and as you keep re-reading, you pick up more and more. Most of what you want is right there.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Is there any other books or websites about omaha/8 other than Zee`s? Zee`s book is very good, but there must be some other info some where.
Coyote
I have the Shane Smith book and the Ciaffone book.
Most of the Ciaffone book is related to Omaha High. Maybe 25% of it is related to H/L. Honestly, there wasn't a whole lot in that book that helped me.
Smith's book is all about H/L and has probably helped me a lot more. Its a good overview, but doesn't give you a whole lot of specific advice on specific situations. Also, his advice on starting hands could be a little more detailed. It is a lot of fun to read, however.
I'm ordering the Zee book once I get a little more experience under my belt, but from what I've heard, its probably the best of the bunch.
n/t
1) Playing A24X rainbow. If the game loose? If so it is definitely playable in any position. And this hand DOES scoop sometimes.
2) 3 pair vs made flush. If you don't have top 2 pair then never.
Is a low alrady there? If it is and you have no reasonable low, then fold.
Do you have nut low draw to go with the 2 pair? Then definitely yes.
Do you have nut low MADE with 2 pair? Raise! You are free rolling against the flush.
-SmoothB-
How do you calculate the odds for a possible low coming on the board with 2 low cards already on the board?
I read somewhere on this board that it was something like 80%, and I can't figure out how the math was done.
See David Sklansky's essay "A Few Omaha Odds" in the Essays section, which contains information you should certainly have at your fingertips playing omaha/8.
It has odds for making a low, and making a low if you start with counterfeit protection, and it gives the numbers both if there are two low cards on the flop, or if you need runner-runner.
Oh no!! Not again!
I think it is easy to figure out the probability a low doesn't come in this case. (Note are assuming we only see the flop and NO other cards, the odds change depending on what we know).
THe probability of no low given 2 low cards on the flop is
= 25/49 (24/48) = P( miss miss)
Suspicious - Yeah, but that has no meaning, because you can see the four cards in your hand, in addition to the flop. Thus the odds are different depending on whether you yourself have 1 low card, 2 low cards, 3 low cards, 4 low cards, or no low cards. There are five cases to figure:
Case I: one low card in hand
probability of low = 870/990
Case II: two low cards in hand
probability of low = 854/990
Case III: three low cards in hand
probability of low = 837/990
Case IV: four low cards in hand
probability of low = 819/990
Case V: no low cards in hand
probability of low = 885/990.
I think the answers range from about 82.7% to about 89.4%.
Never a guarantee my numbers are correct, (but they probably are here).
Buzz
Dear Buzz,
You cannot make a low of any kind with only one low card in your hand! This is Omaha!
And you have to allow for getting counterfeited!
And your numbers are miles off!
Read David Sklansky's essay:
Chance of getting a low if you have two low cards and the board has two low cards = 49.3%
Chance if you have three low cards and the board has two low cards = 69.4%
You have two low cards and one on the board = 16.2%
You have three low cards and one on the board = 24.2%
Oh no!! Not again!
Oh no!! Not again! - Sorry if I offended you.
I merely answered truthfully (and I think correctly) Reservoir Dog's question. The question was:
"How do you calculate the odds for a possible low coming on the board with 2 low cards already on the board?"
I stand by my response.
If the question had been phrased differently, if it had been phrased in terms of Reservoir Dog making the low, the answer would have been quite different. For example, if Reservoir Dog held A-2-9-9, and the flop was 3-4-K, then the probability of Reservoir Dog making low, without being counterfeited, would be 584/990 = about 59%. But that wasn't the question.
And thank you, David Sklansky is one of my favorite poker writers. I did read his essay - carefully. You might do the same - and with an open mind.
Buzz
If Reservoir Dog held A-2-9-9, and the flop was 3-4-K, then the probability of Reservoir Dog making low, without being counterfeited, would be 488/990 = about 49%.
59% is the probability of making low but possibly also being counterfeited.
Like I originally stated, never a guarantee my numbers are correct. (But when they're wrong and I discover the error, I post a correction).
Buzz
I appreciate the help from both you guys, but the original question was geared toward the possibility of any low appearing on the board, not my hand making a low.
All of the info helps, though, and, as I said before, I really appreciate it.
RD
I'd venture to guess to guess that a large % of the Omaha questions here are about this topic, and the answers are always: it depends. You might check some of the earlier posts on topic.
My principles here:
1. Raise for a specific reason. 2. Position is important. 3. The type of game matters.
1. Super hands ( like AA23ss ) raise for value. Be happy to build a pot if everyone calls. Hands that are helped by smaller fields (A2KK), raise if it will help to limit the field. Raise to buy the button.
2. Don't raise out bad low draws UTG.
3. If it's going to be capped anyway, you might as well do your own share of raising. If your raise will fold everyone, this is good. If you raise has no effect, you are pretty much limited to raising for value.
And there are very few hands preflop that are worth raising for value. Preflop raises have a much bigger effect on your deviation than they do on your expected value.
You hear this (pointlessness) from a lot from inexperienced low limit players. They tend to have a short run focus and remember a few anecdotes.
Loose low limit games are all about sin and punishment. Players sin excessively by playing completely hopeless hands, but the loose nature of the game makes for high variance and they don't recognize the weakness in their play.
In loose ring games, any hand with an A2 is a huge favorite on the field and few other hands are worth playing. So a simple strategy of raising for value with good hands (A2s) especially in position (where you won't drive out many hands) is a no brainer. The bigger pre-flop investment makes people play on in hopeless or near hopeless situations later on as sinning begets more sinning.
I wonder what some of the leading theorists will say about this, but I wonder how much the excessive rake in low limit games affects the psychology of the players. In the old days, people playing in pre-jackpot round table games or people who grew up in a low rake home game environment could play low limits with a reasonable chance of success. They could develop a love for the game and progress to more serious levels of play.
The tendency of casinos to rake excessively seems to rob low limit players of their spirit, and they tend to develop a minimize the loss approach to poker, rarely raising or jamming and depising players who do. I've even seen them get mad about someone playing loose and crazy (which they ought to love).
I fear that my play with the nut low on the river has become overly passive.
In general, I think that the principle to raise with 4 players, and call with 3 is correct. For example, in a recent hand with 4 players left, my A2 rivered a 3rd low card on the board. I checked to the high, he bet, 2 callers, so I raised. I only got a quarter, but it didn't cost me to make the play.
However, there are times when I haven't pushed the pot with 3 players, when I think it is indicated. A recent example: I have AA25 offsuit and the flop is 44J with 2 hearts. When the 6 of hearts hits the turn, I call a bet and a raise and we see the river 3 handed: fortunately for me it makes me the nut low, and I just call instead of raising. The other hands are a pair of J's, and a Q high flush that thought enough of his hand to raise the turn. Looking back at the hand, I think this was an easy read for 1 low, 2 highs, and the A2 is worth a raise on the river, even 3-handed.
Does anyone have any indicators for when to push, and when to fear being quartered 3-handed?
So you want to invest one more bet 3-handed. If you are wrong you get back 1/4 of the 3 bets invested or 3/4 of a bet for a loss of 1/4bets. If you are right you get back 1/2 of the 3 bets invested or 1.5 bets for a win of 1/2 bets. So you only need to be correct 1/3 of the time to break even. Bet or raise if you are more than 1/3 sure.
But to answer your question, one or both opponents need to be the kind that usually have A2 in order to play in the first place. If they play lots of hands there are just too many they can have that are other than the nut low.
A big exception about raising comes to mind when you are in the "going for the overcall" situation with the better on your right and loose players likely to call one bet but not two.
- Louie
I think I understand you point, but isn't the ratio 3:2, not 3:1?
"Does anyone have any indicators for when to push, and when to fear being quartered 3-handed?"
I think knowing your players is the most important part of this question. In this particular hand J's full(I assume that's what you mean by pair of J's) just bet and called the whole way letting the flush raise, without reraising, baffles me. He has the chance to scoop. To answer your question it's not clear to me that the person with the full house doesn't have a low also say A24x. You could of raised the river had he reraised the turn IMO, but the way he played it, you don't know. Why did he not reraise the turn does that mean he probably has the lock high and wants to keep you around. I don't know your answer, I think it lies in knowledge of the players and how they play. If you play with the same group of players I would make notes, especially this hand.
paul
Why the J's full didn't reraise the turn is one of the mysteries of life ... he didn't bet the flop either. His hand was something like JJ97, so he had no low.
Did I forget to mention this was a relatively weak game?
I think you are right that knowledge of the players is probably one of the best indicators, but both of these guys were unknowns to me. But the bet/raise on the turn really looks like 2 highs duking it out.
It's not a pre-flop raising game. Profit comes after the flop, especially after the turn when players are chasing 1 way hands and calling (or raising) 2'nd best.
I think raising in late position for value is fine.
You want to punish weak hands but in so doing they will be reluctant to enter pots and you will end up playing your good hands against other good O8 hands.
Regards
I have been playing a lot of 7 card hi-lo lately and I've been getting more than my share of big pairs. I have having trouble figuring out the best way to play them. This is sort of a loose game where 5 players will be seeing 4th and most likely 5th street. I know Ray Zee says to jam w/ a low if you have the best high hand to punish the 2nd best high, but the lows won't jam until they are made and then they are usually freerolling w/ a straight draw of some kind.
Do I jam early and back off w/ no improvement? Or do I wait ot make Kings up before I pound?
Thanks.
Patrick
Big pairs are not that great multi-way. The big problem is that there is a big chance that you'll have to split a pot. There is also a chance that one of your opponents will pair one of the aces out there. And even if no one pairs their ace, you might find that your big pair loses to a smaller two pair.
Big pairs are good two or three-way. When you find yourself with a big pair (in the hole or otherwise) you need to determine quite a few things before you play. Is it higher than the highest up card? If not, usually fold.
Are there lows to act behind you? If so, be less inclined to play.
Have any lows entered the pot yet? If so, be less inclined to be aggressive. It is often good to take a wait and see attitude with big pairs. By the time you get to 4th street you'll know how many opponents you have, and their hands will be better defined.
The other dimension to big pairs is the steal dimension. If there is any chance you can steel (even if there is a higher upcard behind you) then start to consider your chances of a steal. Getting heads up with a draw or a lower pair is a great place for a big pair to be.
- Andrew
Andrew,
Re: recent dissagreement on RGP about Super/System and 7CS8. I went back and reread it and it is indeed much better than I remembered it.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
Talbot,
Thanks for the nod. I really do think that chapter is one of the best monographs in poker literature.
- Andrew
Omaha is not holdem. You don't raise for the same reasons.
If raising won't thin the field then only raise with hands that play well multiway.
When raising doesn't thin the field then you want to raise in order to TIE PEOPLE TO THE POT if you get a flop you like.
It has nothing to do with raising with the 'best hand' or whatever that is. Raising with AA blank blank is very foolish. You only have one way to win with this hand - to flop a set and have it hold up - barring some fluke with the 2 blank cards.
Raising with A2 with a suited ace is a good idea in late position. If you flop a big draw to a flush or low you will have more people tied to the pot to pay you off.
You might be losing at Omaha because you are playing too loosely. A3 plus 2 hi cards is NOT a raising hand. In a very loose game it might not even be playable unless the ace is suited and there is no raise.
Never draw for anything but nut low in a loose game unless you *KNOW* 2nd nut low is good.
-SmoothB-
The other day I am playing 5-10 Omaha/8 and I'm holding A-2-4-8 in the small blind. The flop is 5-7-8 rainbow (the nut low), the turn is 4 (two pair plus nut low) and the river is 6 (third nut high plus nut low, no flush possible).
I bet the flop, was raised by BB and four others call. I bet the turn, BB raises, two callers, I reraise, BB caps it. Same betting pattern on the river since I figure I'm getting at least a quarter and there are four of us in the pot.
It turns out BB flopped nut straight (6-9). I wind up with a quarter for a net win of $5 on the hand. The other A-2 says I'm the worst player he's ever seen. BTW, he had nothing other than an A-2 and this was the second time we had been quartered together. We won money both times despite being quartered and me raising with redraws.
What do you think of the way I played this hand?
Ian, U played perfect. That is the way it turns out sometimes. In fact a lot of times in Omaha/8. As long as there was 4 players still in U were OK. Some times low will be split 3 ways, then U will loose.
Give me to money.
Coyote
I'm with you ... see the thread "Raising on the river" right below.
Thank him for the lesson. Don't EVER teach him the difference between 3 and 4 players.
Dear Ian Haar:
THe guy that said,"The other A-2 says I'm the worst player he's ever seen." is typical chatter from some OM/8 players. I have been told the same thing in various ways over the years. As long as there are four players you will be pretty safe eighty-five to ninety percent of the time. Get PC Wilson's Turbo Omaha HiLo 8 Split program -- there is an option where you are delt only good hands "i.e., essentially calling hands." This option of being delt reasonably good start hands takes the boredom out of the game; it teaches you how things turn out when playing with good starter hands. In Omaha8, only about 15% or so of hands are playable -- depending upon the circumstances -- things such as pot size, position, is there a maniac who jams every pot -- etc. Therefore Wilson's option of just dealing fairly good to excellent four down cards make the program very enjoyable. You also don't have to play every hand -- because some of the "poorer" good hands are not worth playing most of the time if the pot odds and position are not in your favor. THis program will teach you to be a better player.
IMO you played it fine.
Also, what do you care what the other guy says.
I am interested in purchasing about one hour of instruction from Ray Zee, David Sklansky, or a teacher at this level of play. I am specifically interested in hi lo, under the following circumstances. I am a reasonably good high low player of many years, and in the past mostly played so called 'wild games', generally a winner. With the fading of these games in NYC area, have been playing hi lo rotation, just a few games standard stuff, doing a bit better than breaking even in those cases where you can find a game.
As a result, have been playing a bit of low limit and tournament holdem, where I have been doing more than reasonably well. However, my first love remains 'wild' hi lo -- ladders, southern cross, hi window option, you name it.
Anyhow, just got invited to play in a very good, active 5 l0 game, really closer to l5 30 or 20 40 even, given bet after declare and active texture of game. They are playing a few games I don't remember playing, and I need about an hour of brush up with an expert in this area. Questions relate to hand selection primarily, but other issues as well. WIll pay whatever is considered reasonable going rate, and would prefer not to use credit card. THanks for your help. HR Greenberg MD ENDIT
Harvey,
at present i do not give instruction but thanks. David does and you may want to make arrangements with him if you qualify. i believe one hour is next to useless but could help certainly. David is spendy but more than worth it as the money won from the advice will compound to very high figures over the years.
About a year ago or so, I read an article by Mason, the subject of which was 'why Omaha will not last as a casino game' or something to that effect. I believe he was speaking about hi/lo.
Anyone know where I can find this online? Maybe one of his essays here?
Thx
The ante is pretty high. Someone posted the percentage of a bet that turns the game into a crap shoot a while back, but I don't remember what it is.
thx.
its the same ante as 100 &200 stud which ive played an awful lot of. its certainly beatable and you dont have to play too much looser than normal just faster. however at those small limits the rake could easily render the game unbeatable as small stakes games need small rakes or small ante's to be beatable.
my problem with this game is thatproplr stay with anything and you will see alot of suckouts. playing correct poker will not win you as much money at these levels, and you can Not drive people off the pot.
correct me if i am wrong.
billy b
I have As,Ad,Jc,3c. Flop is Ah Th 6s. 4 players. Medium size pot.
First person bet, all call to me and I raise. Next card off is a 9h making the board Ah Th 6s 9h. Everyone checks to me and I check. I check because I'm thinking that a 4th heart won't hurt me and a with 3 other players in there is a decent chance that one of them called with a flush draw and probably would check a weak flush on the turn. I figured the drawback was that if someone is drawing to a low which they probably were they get a free card but I was thinking there is a pretty good chance that I needed a free card as well. Not that i