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AC Trop 10/20 7CS. I am in seat 8 with 2d,3d/Ad
5 way action to me. I complete to $10 and get 4 callers. $51 at 3rd st.
4th st: I get a 5d. I bet with Ad5d. 4 callers.
5th st: I get a 4c for the straight. No threatening hands yet so I bet (I consider a check/raise, but do not-probably should have).
6th st: I get a Jd for the flush with possibility of a st flush with a 5d. I bet. Only 1 caller, seat 7, and he says, "be careful". That suggests he has a live draw to a full house and has no pair showing, no st or flush possible. I suspectI am in trouble. the pot is big and he knows what I have. I have to check, as does he. I am sure he calls for $20 with the pot this size heads up.
7th st: I check and he says, I cannot believe I got the 4th six. He bets (to make it legal) and before I can call (as in pay him off since I feel I have to call in this situation), he lays down the quads saving me a bet. Obviously he played the rolled up 6's slowly. ==================
Hope that only happens once in a few thousand hands.
On 6th, you have to bet. If your assessment of his hand is that he has a live draw to a full house, but you don't think he has made it, then you are absolutely obligated to bet. you are heads up and he is a dog to beat you. bet. don't hestitate at all. if you have to pay off on the river, so be it.
dave in cali
formerly dave in NJ
I miss the trop games, that is still my favorite cardroom I have ever been in. Stud or HE.
In my area, Tahoe is often played. This is a game in which each player is dealt 3 cards, then a flop, turn and river like all flop games. It is played hi/lo with an 8 low qualifier. I have searched for some authoritative book on the subject with no luck. I have previously played some Pineapple and Crazy Pineapple and have attempted to apply some those game concepts to Tahoe. I also play a lot of Omaha8. Is there a book on Tahoe, and how far off am I in using Pineapple/Crazy Pineapple as a guide??
In an Omaha starting hand, there are 6 combinations of cards you may use. In a tahoe starting hand, there are 6 combinations of cards you may use (in addition to being able to use 0 cards from your hand). Thus, I suspect that Omaha standards for judging hand values may be closer to correct than Crazy Pinapple standards. I have not studied or played Tahoe, however.
Ohio is the Death Valley of public poker.
Ditto. Even the riverboat (Grand Victoria) near Cincinnati that had poker closed its room.
I am just learning O/8 and I need some clarification on some of the points within the "Basic Strategy: More Specific Ideas" section of HLSPFAP. I figure that if I don't fully understand this section than I am losing money so I need some help.
I'm afraid I may be giving away too much of the book by making this post, but I thought this would be the best way to find the answers that I am seeking. I was originally going to post the concept and then the questions so that everyone could answer even if they had not read the book, but I figured this was giving away way too much so I decided against it. I am not sure what 2+2's policy is for this sort of posting.
I guess if 2+2 thinks I am giving away too much information they can take my post off of their site (I'm not sure if I need to give my permission for them to do this, but if I have to give my permission they have it).
Anyways, here goes, I hope you guys (and gals) can help me out.
Concept #4: What is meant by an extremely live player? In what (if any) situation/game would it be correct to play a 23xx hand (where xx are useless)? A3xx?
Concept #5: What could be used to help decide whether to continue with the hand or not (besides the two flush not being there)? And what exactly are you hoping for if you continue? An A? A tight (boat for you Americans)? Or would the two pair suffice (I find this highly unlikely)?
Concept #6: How far shoud one carry an A3 low draw postflop? What is meant by a very soft game?
Concept #8: What is the general motif that Zee is trying to show us with these hands? I don't think I understand this concept very well. Are these types of hands truely playable/profitable in an extremely loose game (loose post flop as well)? Is it worth it to give up so much preflop in type of game just because of position (in my opinion, position can't be used that much in this type of game, am I wrong?)? What about if you are not even close to being as good a poker player as Ray Zee, should you still play these types of hands? :-)
Concept #13: What about a set of A's with a possible low on board? What is the point of this concept? Am I not supposed to play a high hand (or a draw to a high hand) if a low is possible? What if the game is loose? (I don't think I understand the point of this concept).
Concept #15: When is it correct to raise (or even just bet) the low? I never know what I should do with the nut low. Check and call it down or bet and raise it? I think I have an idea but would love some clarification. I don't think this was addressed in the book. If it was I missed it and for that I am sorry.
Concept #16: Someone please clarify, I am definitely missing something here.
Concept #17: This is very tough to do (for me) and I am not sure when it is correct to do this, can someone help me out?
Concept #20: What if you are fairly certain that the original bettor will not reraise, should you raise then? What if their are 4 or 5 callers (instead of three), how should you deal with the situation then? What if you can not be counterfeited on the river is a raise now correct? If there are 4 or 5 callers and you can not be counterfeited, then what?
Concept #21: I need clarification on when a fold is correct in this situation (I was kind of in one this weekend).
That's it, I know it's a lot, but I've read this section many times and I know I do not fully understand every thing in it, so I hope you guys (and gals too) can help!
Ever learning,
Mark Dodd
Concept #4: What is meant by an extremely live player? In what (if any) situation/game would it be correct to play a 23xx hand (where xx are useless)? A3xx? A live player is a “sucker” that will play with little or no chance of winning and very weak hands. Generally these hands should only be played in late position against weak opponents. Concept #5: What could be used to help decide whether to continue with the hand or not (besides the two flush not being there)? And what exactly are you hoping for if you continue? An A? A tight (boat for you Americans)? Or would the two pair suffice (I ind this highly unlikely)? If the betting action is light, and there are bad players in the pot. Concept #6: How far shoud one carry an A3 low draw postflop? What is meant by a very soft game? A very soft game has many weak-passive players, usually you want to be drawing for the nut low especially if that is your only draw. Concept #8: What is the general motif that Zee is trying to show us with these hands? I don't think I understand this concept very well. Are these types of hands truely playable/profitable in an extremely loose game (loose post flop as well)? Is it wort it to give up so much preflop in type of game just because of position (in my opinion, position can't be used that much in this type of game, am I wrong?)? What about if you are not even close to being as good a poker player as Ray Zee, should you still lay these types of hands? :-) He is showing hands that are still coordinated, but are too weak to play in early positions. Re-read what he says is the “secret” to the game when analyzing post flop play. Concept #13: What about a set of A's with a possible low on board? What is the point of this concept? Am I not supposed to play a high hand (or a draw to a high hand) if a low is possible? What if the game is loose? (I don't think I understand the point f this concept). Remember, your pot odds are divided in half for all high draws once a low is possible. There are times when pursuing a high hand is not profitable. When analyzing your pot odds, keep in mind that they are usually worse than they appear. Concept #15: When is it correct to raise (or even just bet) the low? I never know what I should do with the nut low. Check and call it down or bet and raise it? I think I have an idea but would love some clarification. I don't think this was addressed i the book. If it was I missed it and for that I am sorry. This is a complex question. Assuming you can get 1/2 the pot, you need to manipulate the betting so that you get the most value out of your hand. Unfortuneately, often you are only getting 1/4 of the pot, so you must consider this also. Read on into the ore advanced concepts. Concept #16: Someone please clarify, I am definitely missing something here. He’s saying that you can put lots of money in the pot because you have a reasonable chance to scoop and without a big (straight) wrap, you have your opponent at a disadvantage. The implication is that at other times, sets are not worth going to war. Concept #17: This is very tough to do (for me) and I am not sure when it is correct to do this, can someone help me out? This is a mathematical question. You need to look at the size of the pot and anticipate the number of bets you will have to put into the pot. If you are not making money on the hand, you must throw it away. Notice, this only applies if you don’t have an other draws to go with your low. Concept #20: What if you are fairly certain that the original bettor will not reraise, should you raise then? What if their are 4 or 5 callers (instead of three), how should you deal with the situation then? What if you can not be counterfeited on the r er is a raise now correct? If there are 4 or 5 callers and you can not be counterfeited, then what? I think you need to re-read this section. He’s talking about a very specific instance where you only have a nut low, and no counterfeit protection. Keep in mind that 4 people can share nut low. If you are putting more money in with a vulnerable nut-low, ou better read your opponents well. Concept #21: I need clarification on when a fold is correct in this situation (I was kind of in one this weekend). My section 21 says that I have the nuts. He is simply saying that it may not be correct to raise.
This is my own interpretation of what Ray Zee’s book says. My thoughts are not endorsed by the author.
The Arizona casinos all play with a "kill" - In Omaha8 at Casino Arizona, it is a "half-kill" - if you scoop a pot of $30 or more, you must post a kill, which functions for you like posting a big blind, of 1.5 times the usual small bet, and the hand plays at 1.5 times the stakes. In my 4-8 game, the kill post is $6 and the hand is played at 6-12.
I think this half-kill is seriously reducing my win rate. I haven't kept statistics, but I estimate that I scoop a pot every one to two hours. I don't know how bad my expectation is on this kill hand, playing a random hand, but it has to be right down there at -4 or -5 dollars, having paid 6 to play. If my win rate were one big bet per hour, this would take away about half of that.
This is especially bad because best play, straight out of HLSPFAP, is to try to scoop, so the penalty comes when I play most correctly. In the hold'em and stud games, even though they play a full kill (twice the stakes), you only have to post if you win two hands in a row - and I play so tight that I only post a kill every 10 hours or so.
Has anyone else thought about this? Can I beat this game? I think so - it is incredibly loose and pretty passive - there have been nights when 6-7 opponents (out of 8 at a 9-handed table) see each flop, with very little pre-flop raising.
PS - The rake is high too. $1 jackpot drop, $3 drop at pot size 30, and tip the dealer $1, for a total of $5 plus the $6 kill if I scoop a 30-plus pot.
Dick
In kill games such as this there are several important points to keep in mind.
First, Badger is right when he says that the kill benefits tighter players (extra blinds on average for the taking; tight players post these blinds less).
Second, Buzz is right when he says that the kill benefits looser players (if they know when to play loose-agressive).
To really do well in kill games you must be able to adjust situationally on a continual basis. You must be able to play good ring game poker and also be able to play good short-handed poker.
Play less hands early position. You don't want to be posting the kill next hand in early position.
Be less likely to steal-raise in a non-kill pot. If you win a small pot and you post the larger kill next hand you have paid a substantial penalty for winning little. Be more likely to steal raise in kill pots if you think you have a decent chance to get away with it. Winning a kill pot also is better than winning a normal pot, and the "kill penalty" next hand is also less proportionately.
Value bet less on the river if that would bring the pot to a kill level.
Be very aware of player dynamics: you will constantly be adjusting by playing from very tight to very loose and aggressive in the right spots. You must be good at this to do really well in kill games, and you must have a good sense of short-handed hand values, and of when to try to make the pot short-handed, as well as a good sense of your opponents in each specific situation.
Kill games benefit rocks a little bit. Kill games benefit loose-agressive players if they have truly good judgment. Kill games are death to loose-passive players. Kill games most benefit players who can play well in virtually any situation.
The rake you describe is high but definitely beatable in a game as loose as you describe. Toking is a personal decision but if you always toke a dollar on small pots you are really hurting your long-term expectation at these limits.
Well I reply w/reading the others.
Seems to me if there is little raising before the flop this shoiuldn't be a big deal as most hands aren't that big of a fav over any others. Shouldl the flop hit you great otherwise fold. Maybe you are losing some money theoretically by posting but it can't be more than 3 dollars or so.
$30 scoop makes a kill? Sounds as if the casino is trying to make a "kill"ing...
In Foxwoods, 3-6 HE only two-thirds kills at $50, moves to 5-10. Maybe you can talk to management about raising the limit? A $30 level in 4-8 seems VERY low- you're going to put at least $24 in yourself... and non-scoop $30 pots are $15 to each side...
Needs to get bumped up
A home game we played pot limit stud, $1 ante with 5 players. I'm dealt 4J4 against two up aces and some other garbage.
One A bets $5, one caller, I call "one time" figuring the $5 is worth it if I make a set and the hand is easy to get away from if I don't.
I was wrong. The turn brings a J so I have JJ44 on fourth street (tho my board is J4). The A bettor gets an 8 which gives him two open diamonds. He checks and I bet the pot. The other A drops and the A bettor calls. There's $45 in the pot.
Fifth street brings another A for my opponent and a blank for me. I know this player well. He is on a draw and would bet if he had anything better.
He checks to me and I (in retrospect - correctly) figure he has only the pair of aces and a flush draw so I bet the $45 pot again. He calls.
I am now slightly worried that he may have me beat but I am MORE worried that he will call me all the way no matter what. In actuality, I figure the odds aren't THAT great for my 2 pair to hold up (my two pair were both live the whole way but still...) once his A came because all he needs is any other pair, not to mention the flush. If this were a limit stud game I'd check and call down the river and I am fairly sure that he's playing this hand like he plays limit stud.
What this analysis means to me is that the benefit of betting the pot on 6th street is not that great now. The two main advantages of pot limit are that you can get more money in when you have the best of it and you can put more pressure on to win the pot outright at any time. With the second benefit taken from me, I figured a pot bet wasn't worth that much on 6th street since my hand was so vulnerable.
I check on 6th street behind his check.
He bets the river and I fold, knowing he made his hand. He showed me AA77.
I am fairly certain I should have bet the pot on 6th street. That was a mistake. However, I'm wondering if my first mistake was to play the hand at all. I KNEW I was ahead and put my money in the pot accordingly but it's the kind of hand that's just too easy to get killed on. A weak 2 pair on 4th street. So I have a couple questions:
1. How strong is a weak 2 pair on 4th street against 1 or 2 players? Should I have bet with this hand?
2. Was it a good call on 3rd street to go for the set? This is pot limit and I figure if I make the set and I can get a big return on my "implied odds" for the $5 bet. Was this a classic misapplication of the "implied odds" concept?
3. Should I have bet the pot on 6th street if I was over 80% certain he would call?
4. can you identify any other possible mistakes I am completely overlooking? (this would be the most valuable answer if you can find one).
Thanks.
natedogg
Whenever you play a pair with a kicker lower than the top card out in your opponents' hands it may become difficult to play.
It seems like your implied odds are less than they appear because, "how much action is your opponent going to give you with a paired door card?"
I have a question about the structure of the game. There are only antes and no bring in? High card opens on 3rd street? I'm unclear from what you wrote. Also, how much money is in front of your opponents?
I think I usually would pass this hand, but I guess if I were going to play this hand, I would have a contigency plan in case I caught a Jack rather than trips. I think I would have been inclined to raise on 3rd street because it will make your hand difficult to read.
You don't mention any dead cards besides the Ace. On fifth street, you are at best a tiny favorite and possibly an underdog depending on the cards that are out. What are you representing with your bet into open aces? It sounds like your opponent isn't very skilled, and against players like him/her I would wait for more advantageous starts with just a $1 ante.
Without further information, I would have been more likely to check behind my opponent on 5th street and bet the pot on 6th street if he checked, and fold if he bet.
The aces and four flush are a substantial favorite over your two pair on fifth street. Its a hard hand for you to profit on unless against a good player. Your only chance for value is to fill up and have him make the flush which is not going to happen often. You should check it as long as he is willing to check open aces.
I am in a 5/10 Dealer's Choice game. The game is very loose and is usually passive preflop (a preflop raise every 6 hands maybe). It has recently become a six person game with one big blind and no small blind.
I am in the blind and see Ac2cKT.
Everyone calls the blind and the button raises. Everyone calls the raise, including myself. The button is a gambler. He plays almost every hand in every game (Ohama High, O/8 and Texas Holdem). He also raises on junk sometimes, especially in O/8. Some of his preflop raises are made on hands that I wouldn't even play.
6 people take the flop and there is $60 in the pot.
Flop: As Qs Td.
I flop top and bottom pair with a gutshot to broadway. I check to find out how the action is going to progress. Everyone checks to the button who bets. I now eliminate the possibility that anyone has broadway (except the button) and I think that my two pair may be better than the button's hand. I check raise to limit the field, I get one cold caller and the button calls. Three people see the turn with $90 in the pot.
Turn: Ah
I have the second nut tight and lead out. Call, call. Three people for the river, $120 in the pot.
River: 7c
I lead out, thinking my tight is best. The next player raises and the button reraises. It comes back to me for 2 more big bets. I look at the middle position player and I am confident he will not cap it. I deliberate folding for over a minute, replaying the action in my head. I meekly call.
The middle position player shows broadway (what was he doing???) and the button shows AQTx (I don't remember his last card), for the nut tight.
I would appreciate any and all comments on how I played this hand.
How poorly was this hand played? Was it a mistake to call the reraise on the river? What other mistakes did I make/not make?
Mark - I think you played correctly. There's only one hand that can beat you and the probability of another player holding it is low enough that overall you'll profit by betting so as to get an additional bet from any player who has a calling hand, but not a betting hand. (In the situation described a player with a pair of queens in his/her hand has such a hand).
I'd be suspicious of collusion between the player who raised with the broadway and the player who held the nut full house. Otherwise, over the course of the evening you should carve up and feast on the fish who raised with a broadway.
But I don't know why I'm giving you advice. From another of your recent posts you sound like you're more successful than I am.
Buzz
Yes, lately I have been very successful but that does not mean that I don't appreciate all the advice I can get.
I don't think that I am that good of a player, I just think that my competition is VERY bad.
I only have 36 hrs in the Dealer's Choice game that I currently play in at my local casino. Because of this lack of experience I found the aforementioned situation was very difficult for me to deduce what the correct play was.
BTW, I don't suspect the broadway fish of collusion. He just really sucks. He played tonight and burned up $150 worth of red in 10 minutes!!!! The shitty thing is that he left right after.
"I don't think that I am that good of a player, I just think that my competition is VERY bad."
LOL
Mine is too.
:-)
Buzz
It sounds to me like you got caught in the classic omaha trap: dubious hand with combination maniac/dummy as opponents. In retrospect the hand may have played easier with a bet on the flop, but how could you know that at the time?
One thing that helps me in situations like this is to give other players credit for deducing some of the same things I do. Namely, most other players at the table believe the button will bet the flop frequently. When you check-raise, the guy who has broadway (clueless) doesn't know how to play his hand.
Without the King of spades in my hand, I might just call on the flop and see what happens; top and bottom pair with a gut-shot at broadway with a two-suited board isn't the type of hand I want to go to war with. I find that Hold'em moves designed to isolate opponents don't work very well in loose omaha games.
“So a tighter player who kills less benefits from the kill.”
I don’t think so.
I agree that “every time somebody else posts the kill, they have a blind bet, and that’s an advantage to you.”
However, even though tight players win hands less frequently and thus are required to post fewer kill blinds, tight players also win fewer kill blinds others have posted. The effect of the one cancels the effect of the other.
In general you can’t like posting any blind. Wouldn’t you rather play if everyone else had to post the blind and you entered the action only when you held good cards? Thus you can’t like posting the kill blind.
You also can’t like it when an opponent raises your ordinary blind. When you have posted the ordinary blind, the effect of an additional kill blind is the same as someone raising your blind. i.e. It costs you twice as much to see the flop in either case.
Whether you are posting a blind or not, the more money there is in the pot, the lower the requirements are to call a bet. It follows that more money in the pot rewards looser play, not tighter play. It follows that looser players benefit more from the kill than tighter players.
Buzz
Badger - I tend to believe you are right about the extra money in the pot. I did not consider the advantage to me from everyone else's kills. And yes, as a tight player, I post fewer than anyone else. So I agree with you that it is to my benefit in all those hands when I choose to enter the hand on someone else's kill, with additional money in the pot - the amount of the kill minus [the kill times the probability that the killer would have played his hand anyway]. (I will leave it to DS to check this advanced math.)
But my advanced math brings up a slight flaw in this reasoning. What if the killer is a player who already plays every starting hand? Don't scoff, I often have two or three of these at my table (4-8, remember?). So if I am at a table full of loose geese, your stated advantage of more money in every kill pot is really not much, because the killer probably would have stayed in anyway.
What about Buzz's point about having your blinds raised? I have actually noticed the annoyance, in a kill game, of having to "call a raise" in either blind because someone posted a kill. In my 4-8 Omaha game with a $6 kill, the big blind is not much of a problem, as I darn near play any 2 cards for the additional 1/3 of a small bet. Comments on that? It is the small blind that is the annoyance. With no kill, entering a hand is half price, and even though position on the remaining rounds is the worst, on the pre-flop round you can be pretty sure you aren't getting raised, since you are next to last. So I loosen up my starting requirements considerably in that spot. But WITH a kill, it is now 2/3 of a small bet (having already put in 1/3), and there are 2 left to act instead of 1, and with the future bad position, I don't feel like loosening up much at all. So my discount start in the small blind gets wasted whenever there is a kill.
I do agree with you that others' kills benefit me. I just think, in a very loose, passive game like mine, it's not much.
Dick
You appear to be overlooking the fact that the betting limits increase during kill pots, not just the blind bets. Superior players will benefit from playing some hands for higher stakes.
The fact that your loose passive opponents play every hand means that the kill hurtsw them worse when they have to post it. Now they are forced to raise or call a raise every time there is a kill, rather than just call, while you will only enter hands that are slightly better when there is a kill (because despite the implied odds, the kill is still a raise as the antes remain essentially the same.) Another thing to consider is that when you win a pot which started with someone posting a kill blind, you will generally win a larger pot, which ought to add to the upper range of your possible win rate as a good player.
The problem that I see with the kill is that it puts poorer players at a greater disadvantage, and thus means that eventually they will go broke, get better, or leave the game and stop losing their money.
The rake stinks in all low limit poker, and in my opinion is your toughest opponent. Casinos need to lower the rake or they will soon kill all of the games.
I've been out of town for a week taking in the beautiful beaches...er...casinos of Mississippi. I just had to respond to Ratso's post last week. I sat down at a 7CS table at the President's just the other day, and low and behold were 2 maniacs sitting at the table. After about 4 or 5 hands, I was outta there and on to another table. I LOVE to play with ONE maniac at the table, they're easy prey in the long run. But two? Forget it, the variables are just too many Ratso.
Scott Daniels
Actually Ray Z gave me some advice that worked quite well this past weekend. I did very well 3 out of 4 nights. I get in a 5-10 7CS with some IDIOTS instead of manaics on the 4th night and get ripped. God, I'd rather play with manaics. Two bad dealers cost me 2 hands. Players with bare aces calling 2 raises when I raise with a Jack on 3rd st and get a Jack on 4th street and bet. Two callers to the river. I come in 3rd. Showdown both had Aces: one had a queen high to win. Both said to me, "I thought you had 2 pair or trips" (yea, why did you call me?)
ratso,
zee helped me last weekend too. Since he is not around it feels good to give him compliments.
paul
Hey Paul,
AC is calling you this summer. I'll send you a tournament listing (actually, the Trop might publish them in the web). That might entice you. Anymore business trips in the area?
8 players in an extremly loose pl Omaha game. Blindstructure: 1/1. Most of the players extremly bad (Drawing to second and third nuts or to flushes when a pair shows, ...). Most of the time I´m the only player who folds before the Flop. One player raises every hand to 5 preflop (if possible).
I´m in middle position (Total: 390) and dealt KhQcTcTd and call the 5. We see the flop 7handed for 5(35 in the pot). Flop comes Th 8c 7c. SB checks, BB (T: 250) bets pot, folded to me. Question 1: fold/bet/raise?
I decidet to raise pot (140) hoping to get a possible better flush draw to fold. One play behind me (more chips than me) calls, rest folds, BB reraises all in (250). Queston 2: fold/call/raise.
I called, so did the player behind me.
Turn: 2d. Bet/Check? I bet my rest (135) being pretty sure that the player behind me had the nut flush draw and will call with it. He called.
River was the 3d. BB won the main pot with the nut straight, the other player showed me A966 (including the nut flush draw) and won the side pot with the small straight.
Any comments appreciated.
Regards
M.A.
When seven players see the flop I would think my third nut flush is trash, heads-up different story. The only way you could possibly outdraw is by the board pairing or making four tens. So, you have 7 outs at this point to make your hand on the turn giving you 5.57-to-1 odds (I didn't include the odds of your backdoor straight). You could only make a call if you anticipate two calls behind you (this could probably be debated depending on how much action you get if you make your hand on the turn), but it's not likely in the position you are in. I would be tempted to just call the 35 hoping it does not get raised behind me. But, if someone raised behind me and the big blind reraised I would definately fold.
You are right, 3rd nuts is trash in PL O with 7way action. But that was exactly the reason for raising. I hoped that my outs would increase this way from 7 to 16. Shouldn´t this be just a standart play? (Bad luck if someone with a made straight has the nutflush draw too, though. But still, I got outs)
M.A.
From my experience, you should usually play a multiway pot staightforwardly. Save the moves for short-handed play. What I'm saying is that your outs for the flush draw were no good once the player behind you called. I was not at your game, but how can you think that your flush draw was good? What hand does your opponent behind you have? If he had a straight, the same as the initial bettor he would have raised, or if he had same straight with the nut flush draw he may call and trap you for all your money while he gets a freeroll on the initial bettor. But, with just a call it is very likely he has the nut flush draw.
I'll do a little simple math just to illistrate the possibilities. Let's say that 50% of the time the player behind you calls when he has the nut flush, and 50% of the time he has just a straight. Futhermore, lets say the initial bettor has a redraw for the nut flush 25$ of the time. Are you getting good odds from calling the initial bettors reraise?
Maybe, someone else will comment on this play.
I think TT has over a 35% chance to boat up, it is unlikely the nut flush will fold, so if you are sure this is what you are up against I figure reraise all in, as you can't be losing money (int he long run) on this play.
You also have runner runner straight straight also. I could do the math and let you know your odds of improving (We'll assume we KNOW one player has J 9 and the ohter has Ac X c and the X doesn't make a pair w/the board).
I think by your own analysis that you will be losing money in the long run. If m.a. makes his full house 35% of the time, he will lose 65% of the time. The problem with this situation is that when a lot of players see the flop, someone already has the current nuts, and quite often a good redraw. I believe the key to making money in PO Omaha is to have the current nuts with redraws to better hands, or to have multiple draws that are favorites on the flop.
At best a call on the flop, probably a fold. All this action is insane. Even bad players can hit good flops! And your house odds are (probably) reduced by the likelyhood of your opponents having some of the cards of the flop in their hands. Multi-way hands should be played simply.
good luck
Dave d
In HLSP by Ray Zee he lists the various hand types.
Catagory 4 is "Three small cards to a straight"
Do the three cards have to be connected? i.e 345 or 456
Or do hands like 245 or 356 fall in to this category?
how about 246 or 357 ?
Or are all these types of hand "razz" hands, Category 10 ?
Ray has said he would play hands like 357 or A5Tsuited in a Loose game. Ray can get more out of line on 3rd street than a normal player though.
CV
Jon,
yea they are straight hands as well but of course not as good( but still pretty strong). the missing gap needs to be live or they revert to razz hands, which are like 2,5,7. 3,5,7 gets weak as its too easy to make a rough eight. and needs two perfect inside to get anywhere high. not too many times would i fold a hand like 2,4,6 in three unless its was dead in relation to what my opponents have. but not many times would i raise to get more money in. whats happened to you are you going to be a limit split player? or are they playing it pot. in pot the disguised hands do the best.
I sometimes play 3-6 7CS with a $.50 ante; the games tend to be loose-passive--especially on 3rd street. After the collection is taken, $.50 usually remains in the pot before the low card makes the mandatory bring-in bet of $1.00. After several players call the $1.00, is it profitable to also limp from late position with weak hands such as (2d2c)6s, (7c8d)5s or (Jc9c)Ad if your key cards are live? [You plan to dump these hands on 4th street unless you catch perfect.]
How would your hand selection standards differ in this situation (late position with several limpers) if the betting limits were 2-4 (with the same ante and bring-in)?
Student,
" (2d2c)6s, (7c8d)5s or (Jc9c)Ad " These hands are borderline at best in late pos'n. The word "LIVE" is very important on these type of hands. The 785 hand is probably your best best to play for a gut shot or fold, The other two are playable only if you catch the 2/6 or A/Tc. It's a long road playing these types of hands because your doing alot of praying for the perfect card. Occasionally that happens but most of the time it usually cost me more money I find. What I do is play one of these occasionally thruout the session and if I catch fine and if not I dump it. The thing that you have to ignore is the hands other people play in this game observe them and then capitalize on them when you hit a hand. Follow the flush, straight, and high card philosophy for these games and you'll do well.
Paul
Paul is right they are folding hands when you cant steal the money with them. fold in both structures. read stfap and use what you learn to vary the strategies there to meet your game. remember there is no ante in your game as its gone down the box, so there is less to shoot for by calling with trash. you probably need to play 5 times as tight as you presently do since asking this question means you must play way too many pairs like eights in the wrong spots, and hands like 8,9,j.
Is it ever worthwhile to call a raise from a live A on third street with hands like 64/4 or 86/3.
I usually chuck these unless the Ace is not live and there are no other low hands out.
Also in the Paradise Poker format where the bring in is $4 in the 8/16 game, if I have already limped in for $4 I will usually pay the other $4 after the Ace raise hoping to catch a killer card.
Well, there is NO killer card to catch with the 86/3 but if i catch low and no other low improves that this is a good hand now
Never.
I wouldn't even call the bring-in with either of those hands except in very rare circumstances. (86)3 has no high potential at all. And even if you qualify, your hand is very rough. Either heads-up (where you are drawing just to get your half of the money back), or multiway (where you have no high and when you make a low you'll lose to any other low) this hand is nearly worthless. The only situation I could ever see playing (86)3 would be when you are last to act against multiple high hands (and no low hands at all). (64)4 is the type of hand that will often lose both sides when it improves. I almost never play small pairs, and I defer to Ray's advice on the few times they should be played. Even when aces are dead, neither of the hands you mention would want to face something like (77)A, and if he does have aces you're in terrible shape.
Thanks for your reply Dan..i suspect Ray will say the same.
I'm getting loads of experience playing two game at a time on Paradise...works out at over 70 hands per hour at 8/16 limit....but i still play too many hands i suspect.
I have now reread Ray's book a couple of times and am making far fewer mistakes.
10/20 7CS
5 way action to 4th street
(xx) 10h,9s bets 10; I raise with a (10,J)Q,9; get 2 callers
5th street: Check to me. I bet 20. Only 1 caller and he shows A and junk.
6th st: Heads up against an Ace/nothing. I show Q,9,Q. The ace checks to me. I bet $20 representing two pair (minimum) poss trips with an open end straight draw. Remember I raised with a Queen and just got a queen.
Ace calls (should I have check raised? Probably not since I think the Ace would have checked for a free card hoping for Aces up)
7th street: dealer deals an up card instead of down card to the #1 seat, realizes his mistake and proceeds to deal me an up card. Neither card seems to help either one of us. I still have bare Queens; he appears to have bare aces. I bet out seing as it is the only way I can win if he has Aces. I figure he will not call. He must figure me for 2 pair minimum.
The dealer declares no betting and sends my $20 back. I loose in a showdown.
My question is, Isn't it an option whether or not to bet? If a card is dealt up, and I bet, doesn't the other player have to bet or fold? Is it an automatic showdown?
Dealer should have given you a down card and asked the other player if he wants to be all-in. If he wants to be all-in then it's a showdown. If he doesn't then normal betting proceeds.
That is probably what happened, but the dealer gave me an up card. The dealer cost me a big one. I am pretty sure he would have folded if he did not make 2 pair, he did not make 2 pair.
First of all, dealers aren't supposed to make this decision. A floorperson should have been called. Second, the dealer made the wrong decision. When the first player receives his last card face up, you too receive your last card face up, but then betting proceeds as normal. The dealer confused the case when a player other than the first player receives his card face up on the last card.
TY. that is what I thought and I believe it would have made a difference
Ratso, never, ever play with that dealer again. Take a looooooong break when he/she sits down to deal.
never allow a dealer to amke a decision; insist that they call the floor.
Ratso,
you missed a good bluffing spot by just a little bit. in the future think ahead about these kind of situations that happen and plan your actions. what one might have done is this.
scream for the floorman to make the ruling.(never let a dealer make any kind of ruling that goes against you.)
after he comes over complain that you have a the best hand and the dealer wont let you bet.be forceful about it.
one of two good things may happen. the other player may get annoyed with taking so long and be convinced you do have him beat and just throw away his hand so you wont get the satisfaction of betting. or the floorman may do the right thing and let the betting proceed and no one in their right mind would call you after your tiraid.
ive done and it works sometimes and when it doesnt you look like a fool or get some good laughs.
Not exact but close. 8 players 50c ante, 1 bringin.
Player #1 passive conservative, #2 (me), #3 call machine, #4 call machine, #5 call & raise sometimes, #6 MANIAC, #7 Fair player, #8 Call machine.
#1 xx/Jc, me 6c7s/8d, #3 xx/2c BI, #4 xx/Jd, #5 xx/4s, #6 xx/Ad, #7 xx/7h, #8 xx/Kc.
3 brings it in 6 completes everybody calls. At this point everyone is pretty much ignoring the maniac's raises and the pots are Huge.
4th street no pairs hit I get a 9d no 5's on the board and #8 hits a Tc giving him xx/KcTc. Maniac has Ad4c and bets out. Everybody calls.
5th street
Maniac catches an xx/Ad4c8h and bets out, 7 catching a 9h folds, 8 folds catching a Td, #1 catches Qh and raises. Shit he must have the straight thought he was going for the flush. 67/893d I think for a while and figure the maniac will just call and maybe a couple of the call merchants will call so I throw it in against my better judgement. #3 calls with a 9s hitting his board xx/2c3s9s. #4/5 drop with an Ah hitting #5 board. Maniac calls.
6th street 4 players left.
xx/KcTcQhJc Bet out maniac checks xx/Ad4c8h4s, 67/893Kh call, #3 folds a 4h, Maniac calls. At this point I'm in donation mood but the pot is huge there are 3 9's, out 2 T's out, 2 A's out and probably the maniac has one in the hole. 4 or 5 clubs out. I figure it will be an easy fold if I miss and I'm still looking for a 5 none out.
7th street
Maniac checks, #1 checks, and I look in the hole it's a 5c. I think for a minute and then I bet. Maniac looks at my cards garbage and he raises. #1 Folds he shows me Q's and a 4 Flush during the hand. It took me by surprise and I decided just to call. It wasn't that bad a play since it put Maniac on tilt when I showed him my straight. Normally I would of raised him here but maybe by not raising he stayed around for another hour to donate another $200.
On the aside I hate when people show me there cards during the playing of a hand. The info I gain from them doing this is miniscule compared to what I already know about there game. It caused me to not raise where I felt 90% sure I had the best hand. Even though it had no influence on this hand what if he had A's or 4's in his hand then it would of helped me.
The best I can remember.
Paul
Maniac had A's & 4's.
paul
Well, since I still pretty much suck, I'm in no position to critique. However, at 5th street I'm probably out against what I would now figure for a higher straight from a conservative player. I hate drawing dead.
Related question...I've been playing a bit at the pony palace myself....Are you finding ANY difference in the 2/4, 3/6, and 4/8 games?
Linc,
".Are you finding ANY difference in the 2/4, 3/6, and 4/8 games?" The only difference that I find is the number of players that stay in on third street. Almost all in 2/4, ~5 in 3/6, ~3 or 4 in 4/8. You have to raise on 3rd street in the 4/8 game more than the other two. Flushes, straights, and high cards paired or not do well in 2/4, 3/6. Everygame is different of course, but you have to stick to certain hands that you want to play and why they will work in this kind of game. Don't start playing junk because you see alot of laydowns that start with junk. Be patient.
The reason I stayed is because I figured by the conservative raising the maniac would become normal for the rest of the hand. As it turned out the conservative was raising with a pair of Q's and 2 outers for flushes and straights. He was using the board to get me out, which I didn't know that he was capable of such a play, plus his board looked scary so he probably figured a raise would get me out. What I find with a maniac in the game people alter their normal style of play, because they see the maniac do it so why not me. He made a great raise except I was too dumb to pay attention to it and respect it for what it should of represented. Had there been one 5 out I would of dropped. He still would of lost the hand to the maniac, but he would of increased his chances had he got heads up with him.
paul
Since I am the greatest, I am in a position to critique and say you should have folded on fifth street.
I have logged over 100 hours at Canterbury playing mostly small stud, and there isn't too much to distinguish among $2/4, $3/6, and $4/8. All games are loose/passive. You can quite frequently see fifth street for the bring-in if you so choose. The $2/4 games are definitely the loosest, and the $4/8 is occasionally tight enough that there's little hope of making any money (10% rake to a limit of $4.50). If you raise first round, you are immediately escorted to a hold'em table. :^)
It amazes me how many $2/4 games they keep going at that place. Last night the only $3/6 game busted up fairly early. The only $4/8 game was a somewhat unpleasant affair as I was sitting next to a rather abusive loser (winning at the time, but a loser) who didn't smell real good at that. But they had four $2/4 stud games going past midnight on a weeknight (32 poker tables total, I think). I can't imagine that too many players win in those games given (1) the high rake and (2) the fact that most of them are unbelievably bad. I usually do well enough at $2/4 that I sometimes wonder why I bother with anything else. :^)
One thing that I have observed at Canterbury is that if someone is showing a straight and raises, it usually means a straight. In the home games I've played in, players are more inclined to bluff/semi-bluff when they're showing a straight. Canterbury player will generally check/call unless they've got the goods. Given your characterization of your opponent, I would probably abandon a straight draw. I wouldn't abandon a straight, but I think a draw can safely be stacked. The raise shortens your odds, and you don't know what's going to happen behind you. Yeah, it's most likely that the maniac will call (I thought maniacs were confined to playing hold'em at Canterbury :^) and you'll get a couple of other callers, but if the maniac reraises (he is a maniac after all) and/or everyone else drops, where are you then? Even if your passive/conservative opponent doesn't have the straight yet, he can still get there about as easy as you can. In any event, if you do make your hand, you can't really be too proud of it. I say wait for the next hand.
I think your characterizations of the 7cs vs. HE at Canterbury is well put. I've given up on HE at the pony palace, since it just seems too random and the variance too high while I learn the game. The 7cs game, for the most part, is exactly the opposite...passive and fairly conservative.
For the first time yesterday, I saw more HE games going than 7cs...of course, the HE jackpot was up over $35,000, which I think had something to do with it. Sigh.
I have been playing in small dealers choice cash games recently, and wondered if anyone could offer suggestions on how to play PLO/8, 5-card Omaha, and 6-card Omaha (both hi only and hilo split). Links and book titles would obviously be of use as well.
Thx.
New Kid
You are lucky: there is a wild half-pot omaha game locally where it is customary to strip the deck to 32 cards when there are less than eight players, which means that one player has to sit out each hand when there are seven players! It's a craaazy game which I don't like at all: last time I played stripped deck omaha I lost a total of 2k in three consecutive pots, two with quads, one with aces full. I've been trying to get them to deal five cards instead of four when the number of players drop, but these guys are crazy and prefer the stripped deck game.
Can't help you much with tactics on the five and six card games though: for high it is probably best to rank the hands similarly to the four-card game, addding extra points for the fifth and sixth cards, if they are good. Hi-lo might be more complex than that because you will get a lot more valid five and six-card hands.
New Kid.
PLO/8 --play very tight. 5 & 6CO -- don't play. Find a decent cash game. This is a real gamb00ling game which is too volatile for most bankrolls. Play 4-card Omaha or hold'em -- this sounds like a UK dealers choice game, is this right? --rather than games like these.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Richard
"Pot-limit Omaha-8 is the lamest game ever. This is a contest in who plays tightest."
-Iceman
The key is to play extremely tight, both before and on the flop. You make money in this game from having the nuts and charging opponents for bad calls. High hands and two-way hands go way up in value, while dry A2 or A3 are much worse than they are in limit O-8.
"5 & 6CO -- don't play. Find a decent cash game. This is a real gamb00ling game which is too volatile for most bankrolls."
If the players are bad, you can make money off games like this. Just adjust hand strength expectations way up throughout the hand. On most boards, just assume the nuts is out there and play accordingly.
"Play 4-card Omaha or hold'em -- this sounds like a UK dealers choice game, is this right? --rather than games like these."
I would choose 4-card Omaha, since it has more of a dealer's advantage than holdem or Omaha-8.
Play like Dan says. The more cards you are dealt, the more you need the nuts.
These can be good games with lots of action. Five-card is played in Texas, OK and the Pacific Northwest. I think the six-card version may be from Europe.
If memory serves, the first edition of one of Ciaffone's books (Omaha or PL) had a section on these games, but I believe it was deleted in later editions.
5 and 6CO were given a brief chapter in PLANLP, but this was, as you say, deleted later on. 6CO is indeed from Europe, but I didn't know 5-card was played elsewhere. The fact is, IMHO these are just dumb dealers choice games.
Regards,
Richard
Ok, I need some advice. I play low limit (1-5) home games (7cs & he). I am loose-aggressive; other players: 2 tight, 2 maniacs, 2 idiots. 1 maniac walked away with all of it. He took pot after pot. Tight players folded mostly, I stayed mostly when I had anything decent. Maniac raises max bet on a 3 up vs. my K. I say okay and call. Goes on and on. I fold on 6th street and he wins with a pair of 10s, one on his last card w/ no flush/straight draw. That was the scene all night. He max bets on anything he has in any game at any time. Comes down to me and him. We trade back and forth for a while. Then he wins a bunch in a row. Next hand I get trip A after three cards, he has a 5 up. He had been betting pretty big on nothing all night. I bet table min and he folds. What the hell do I do? I can't keep him in when I have anything (pretty rare) and he bets crazily and catches a winner on the last card when I don't have the strongest hand (hold 'em too). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Btw, I don't think he's skilled enough to read hands or people.
Playing with maniacs, you're not going to have as much control of the table as you will other times. You won't get them to fold a draw by making it too expensive and you won't win with scare cards. You're going to need to show down winners. So, tighten up a bit. Play aggressively, but make sure you have the best of it. When there are a lot of players staying till 5th street, play draws but only when they're live. Bail out quickly if your cards come out in other hands and you miss. When there are 1 or 2 callers, you want to have top pair with live kickers. You may have a few bad nights, but these are the most profitable games you're likely to find. If tough when they seem to have all the luck, but if you make the right plays, you will win over time.
DJ
New to midlevel 7 stud: $2 ante, $5 bring-in, 15-30, full table. Have played one orbit only. Have JQ with J showing, bringin a 3 3 to my left. All fold to me and I complete, and A just to my left raises. My JQ are live as is his A. What to do with this hand 1) if I knew he had AA, I should probably fold, but I do not. I take card off, XX for both of us and he bets and I call. Fifth street is again XX and I raise his bet to i) plan on folding if next card does not help me and he bets into me ii) could win if I get scare card and he checks and I bet iii) fold if he pairs and I draw blank. We both get xx and he checks and I bet, he calls. Last card gives me JJ44 and I do not bet, but turn over thinking I did not want to have to decide what to do if he raised, and figured he would not call with only a pair. Any comments on my thinking/mistakes made would be appreciated. What i really am looking for is feedback on 3rd street, how to handle that first raise from an overcard. Thanks,Gary
I probably would not have raised with an ace still to speak. You announce Jacks with your raise, and he now has the upper hand. He can fold for no cost other than ante. His raise puts you in a tough position. He almost has to raise even if he does not have aces, but a decent hand. It definitely puts the pressure on you. I would fold. If he just called, I would take a card. If he raises, I would probably take 1 card and see.
Hi all. Two questions to settle a dispute.
1) Which is the better hand 5677 d.s, or 5678 d.s.
2) Which is the better hand AsKsQcJc or AsKcQsJc
I'll bite. This is High only right?
1) 5,6,7,8 is better since medium and low trips rarely make a Nut hand.
2) As,Kc,Qs,Jc since its easier to make the Nut club Flush.
Later, CV
1. 5677 d.s, and 5678 d.s. are both terrible Omaha hi/low starting hands. In general, neither is playable, pre-flop, unless you're trying to steal the blinds. That being said, I have a slight preference for 5677 d.s.
2. AsKcQsJc and AsKsQcJc are both nice hands, pre-flop, IMO. I think AsKcQsJc is better than AsKsQcJc because, although king suited is not a very good combination pre-flop, it's hugely better than queen suited. It's true that AsKsQcJc has slightly better draws at a straight flush than AsKcQsJc, but a straight flush is really a long shot for AsKsQcJc (something like 240 to 1 against), and not worth seriously considering.
PacPalBuzz
1) 5678 double suited. 77 isn't that good a set to flop.
2) AsKcQsJc for two reasons--no one will ever have a king high flush in the same suit as your club flush, which is what they lose the most with. It gives any club flush you might make a better chance of being the nuts.
Regards, Richard
"1) Which is the better hand 5677 d.s, or 5678 d.s."
5678 d.s. A 4-straight has much better straight potential than a 3-straight, and the pair of sevens is worth virtually nothing.
"2) Which is the better hand AsKsQcJc or AsKcQsJc"
AsKcQsJc. The second hand has a king-high flush draw and its ace-high flush draw can potentially win more since it could face a king-high flush.
1) 5678 plays slightly better than 5677 in high only and high/low most of the time. a) Exception #1 - 5678 is significantly better in high only when playing head to head against random hands. The hand is only a slight dog against a hand like AAKQ. b) Exception #2 - 5677 is significantly better when playing high/low head to head against a quality low like A23K.
2) See Buzz's answer.
thecat - Thanks. Actually, I like Dan Rubenstein's answer to #2 more than my own answer. I earlier had some of Dan's thoughts and then became preoccupied with figuring out the odds of the hands hitting straight flushes, just in case that was why anyone would even consider why a hand with a queen high flush draw might be better than a hand with a king high flush draw, other considerations seeming about the same. Regarding Dan's answer, I especially like his consideration of getting more value from hitting the ace high flush if someone else hits the king high flush.
Regarding question #1: I was thinking only of a ring game of Omaha high/low. That I did not even consider the possibility of heads-up play, as in a tournament or extremely tight game, is disturbing to me. Heads up in a tournament I would at least consider playing either of the hands. My guess would have been 7-7-6-5 would have more value than 8-7-6-5. Thanks to you (and the other posters) for steering me straight. I have a lot to learn.
PacPalBuzz
I posted something on the internet forum about the 8 or better stud game at Paradise and another poster responded that he watches me "break the Paint Rule"?
What's that all about,,, I'm still new to the game.
I know in Razz there is something like that but in 8 or better ...can someone clue me in.
"Paint" stands for a Face Card in Sklansky's chapter of 7CS Hi/Lo, No Qual in the Super System. In Hi/Lo split w/out a qualifier if you catch "Paint" you should usually fold. Of course high hands are much more valuable when the 8 qualifier is added since not every hand is Split.
Later, CV
isnt there something about those that blindly follow rules.
On ConJelCo's web site, issue #7 of The Intelligent Gambler includes an interview with Mason Malmuth on the subject of whether new players should learn hold'em or stud. I wouldn't say that I'm exactly a new player, but public poker just came to Minnesota this past April, and I'm able to play weekly for the first time since college. For right now, I am confined to the lower limits. Mason says that someone confined to the lower limits should learn hold'em. I prefer stud, and I think that it's a much easier game to beat, at least at Canterbury. The stud games are generally loose and passive, and the hold'em games are usually loose and aggressive. Thus, while Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players says that Stud has higher variance (I think), low limit hold'em, as it as played at Canterbury Park, has higher variance than low limit stud. At least one recent poster will back me up on this. :^)
The thrust of Mason's argument is that low-limit stud is different from mid- and high-limit stud because of the higher ante in the mid- and high-limit games. This is the betting structure of the stud games at Canterbury:
$2/4, 50 cent ante, $1 bring-in
$3/6, 50 cent ante, $1 bring-in
$4/8, 50 cent ante, $2 bring-in
$6/12, $1 ante, $2 bring-in
$10/20, $1 ante, $5 bring-in
$15/30, $2 ante, $5 bring-in
Apart from the $10/20, with its small ante and high bring-in, I think that these structures are very similar. I think, in particular, that the structure of my preferred $3/6 game is as similar as it possibly could be to the biggest game in town, the $15/30, unless they introduce sixty-seven cent chips or something. I gather that low-limit stud is played without an ante in Vegas. Does this mean we're playing "real stud" here after all?
"Does this mean we're playing "real stud" here after all?"
If you are in a lower limit game with an ante that is high proportional to the bets, "real stud" concepts do apply. One major difference is that the low-limit high-ante game will usually have more callers throughout the hand, as you mention. As a result, it can be difficult to narrow the field in many situations where you want to, and you often have to use a different approach.
The 2-4 and 3-6 games you mention have a very high proportional ante. That high ante will lead to a much higher luck factor, and combine that with a high rake and you probably have an unprofitable game. But the 4-8, 6-12, and 10-20 games you mention could be very lucrative.
"Mason says that someone confined to the lower limits should learn hold'em. I prefer stud, and I think that it's a much easier game to beat, at least at Canterbury. The stud games are generally loose and passive, and the hold'em games are usually loose and aggressive. Thus, while Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players says that Stud has higher variance (I think), low limit hold'em, as it as played at Canterbury Park, has higher variance than low limit stud. At least one recent poster will back me up on this."
One reason why novices are told to learn holdem first is that low-limit stud in most places is either no-ante or very low ante, and as such the skills you use in those games are not applicable to higher level games. In your situation, learning stud first is fine.
On the subject of variance, if low-limit holdem is loose and aggressive, it will be a high variance game. Low-ante stud is usually lower variance than holdem games at the same limit, while high-ante stud is usually higher variance unless the holdem game is very aggressive. I would suspect that you would find the variance lower in stud at 4-8, 6-12, 10-20, and 15-30. In the games I play, (10-20 is spread with a $3 bring-in, a much better structure), the variance is way lower in stud than in holdem, and the stud games are also more profitable.
Thanks for the response, Dan. One might think that a 10% rake to a limit of $4.50 would be unbeatable at $2/4 or $3/6, but the fact of the matter is that the players are so bad that the rake is, I think, beatable. I'm a few hundred dollars ahead after 100 or so hours of low-limit stud. This has, alas, been neutralized by disastrous forays into hold'em and stud/8. Perhaps the players will get better and/or give up, but for right now, they have several $2/4 tables at any given time, all populated by people who don't seem to mind giving their money away.
The variance for bad hold 'em players will tend to be bigger than the variance for the bad stud players. However, the variance for the best hold 'em players will probably be smaller than the variance (or standard deviation) for the best stud players.
Hi, just a thought, low limit stud is more fun than holdem, i think. I was in Las Vegas for two day adn LA for two day last week and found call station in all low limit games. I play mostly on Planet and find the games MUCH! better than LA or Vegas in low limits. have a nice day, beard
The low-limit stud games at Canterbury Park in beautiful Shakopee Minnesota are, as I've mentioned previously, rather loose and passive. Paul Feeney recently posted a hand where he characterized three of his opponents as "call machines". I almost responded to the effect of, "only three calling machines? That's unusual!" I can usually find a game with at least five. Anyway, with this in mind, here are some early raise situations that have come up in the last month or so:
$2/4 stud: bring-in is two to my right. Next player has a queen up and completes to $2. This a tight (for $2/4 anyway), predictable player, and I'm reasonably sure that his raise indicates two queens. I have (KdTc)Kc. One king and one club are showing and my tens are completely live. I've only been playing for two hours or so, and I have not yet seen a hand where anyone made it two bets on the first round. Have I mentioned that these games are loose and passive? I decide to re-raise, hoping to go heads up against the queens, against whom I figure I'm a favorite.
Question 1: Assuming that this has a reasonable chance of working, is this a good raise? Is my reasoning sound?
Five people call, of course, including my friend with the pair of queens.
Question 2: If I have reason to believe that I'll get a lot of callers, is my raise a good one? I'm not crazy about the fact that one of my kings is gone, but my hand is otherwise pretty live.
$3/6 stud: bring-in is on my right. I call with (98)8 of mixed suits. Four others called. On sixth street, I caught another nine for a split two pair. Unfortunately, two other players caught nines as well. The bring-in guy makes an open pair of fours and bets $3. I'm next to act and immediately raise $6, hoping to shut out the other players. The players seem to be slightly more inclined to fold to $6 bets from open pairs. I really don't think the bring-in has very much.
Question 3: Assuming that I can get it heads-up, or at least drive a few of these guys out, is my raise a good idea? I'm not going to win against a large field without improvement, and my chances of improving are slim.
Everyone calls the $9, of course.
Question 4: If I figure that everyone's going to call, even for a raise, what is my best course of action? Should I just call, hoping for a miracle eight on fifth street, safe in the assurance that if it comes, these good folks will be kind enough to pay me off? It's something like 17:1 against my catching another eight, and I think my implied odds are probably higher than that. Or should I fold and wait for a better hand? I have little fear of a raise downstream.
$4/8 stud: this game is a bit tighter than usual. I'm actively looking for another game. The bring-in is two to my right. The next player has a jack showing and raises. I'm reasonably sure he has two jacks. I'm next with (8d8c)Kc. Eights and Kings are live, but a couple of clubs are gone. I re-raise, representing two kings and hoping to get it heads up with the jack.
Question 5: Assuming that I can get it heads-up, is this a good raise? I believe that I can outplay my opponent and get him off of his hand if he doesn't improve.
I get three callers, including the jack.
Question 6: If I anticipate getting company, is my raise still a good idea? Should I fold? Call?
Since I'm playing in the same games you are :)....
Q1: I've almost never seen more than one Canterbury 2/4 player fold to a $2 raise after they have already committed the first $2. Sometimes they'll fold to a 2-bet cold call, but almost never after they've committed that first $2. In your game, given late position, I don't think you'll drive anyone off. I'd like your play better in early position.
Q2: I don't mind the raise because you have a high 2 flush as well. At the same time, I don't feel strongly about the need to raise here, either. If your K is high, you'll have a chance to bet or check-raise later if its called for.
Q3: I like the raise IF people will drop. Sadly, this is not likely to be the case.
Q4: If the cards are dead, this one feels like a hand that will suck some money out of you. I hate playing 2 small/medium pairs...I never know what to do with them either, but I'm finding that they win me (relatively) small pots or lose me larger pots. I doesn't seem to be a winner to me.
Q5: If you can get heads up, its a great raise.
Q6: I still think you raise, but against multiple opponents you need to see some improvement fast. I think you raise to try to limit the field first, and maybe buy a free card second.
Just some opinions from someone, like you, who might be the only person to raise at the table in any given hour. BTW, the action is a bit better on a Friday/Saturday night, but your variance will go up as well.
Linc,
On the first hand, I am in early position. The queen raised immediately after the bring-in, and I raised immediately after the queen. Four people called the double-bet cold.
That hand turned out well. I caught a ten on fourth street for Kings-up, bet it, and everyone still called. I led all the way, got plenty of callers, and caught another ten on the end. I dragged a pretty good-sized pot. One thing I've noticed is that the pot size doesn't change much among $2/4, $3/6, and $4/8. In fact, last night's $4/8 game had much smaller pots than the typical $2/4. Naturally, I moved to $3/6, which wasn't a whole lot better after a couple of players left. The $3/6 and $4/8 games had empty seats most of the evening, but they had five $2/4 games going. Go figure.
The weekend games are much looser. I've been playing during the week because I'm between jobs and, well, I can't help myself. :^)
Andy B,
In my limited time at playing out there 2/4 are almost all call machines. I had my best luck when I waited until 5th street with a very strong hand to raise. I think your best bet is to find a game with a maniac and let him do the raising and just play strong hands. By waiting until 5th street nobody cared if you were in and if you want to limit the field by making it 8/12 all of sudden everyone turned their heads and most would drop except for maybe two players. I did raise it once with pocket K's and everybody stayed. If your rolled up bet and raise all the way otherwise I would wait until 5th to raise unless you hit trips on 4th. Strong hands are the KEY because someone is going to go to the end with you 90% of the time. Live hands are very important too, but when you win it's nice because you get a piece of everyone because they all stay until 5th street. Patience helps!!! Take walks between hands the games are slow with everyone calling.
Good Luck Paul
1. Raising to try and get heads up with a smaller pair is good poker. Unfortunately you forgot that you would get called by three or more players regardless. Still, you have to try and drive people out with those big pairs.
2. make the fish pay to play that trash. Your king being dead doesn't really help but if your hand was otherwise live, raise away.
3. I would consider folding split eights with a nine kicker rather than calling the bring in on your right. If it gets raised you are not in a good situation and your position stinks. Also, with two of your four outs dead and only two medium pair, you are probably going to lose $$ more often than not with this hand. TROUBLE.
4. like I just said, it looks like you have a trouble hand...
5. If you can realistically outplay him, and realistically get the competition to fold, then your raise is OK. Otherwise I would just call since you have a hidden pair and an overcard which pretty much allows you to at least see 4th, if not go to the river.
6. in a really loose game I would probably not reraise. You are putting $$ in with the worst hand and you are unlikely to thin the field. Making the pot really big will encourage players to chase you to the end and someone will probably outdraw you (implicit collusion).
I haven't been playing that much stud recently so I am anxious to see if my answers get blasted! Hope this helped.
Dave in Cali
I'm being forced to play Lots of Crazy Pineapple at my Home games these days so I want to confirm some starting hand strategy.
I'm thinking Double suited Connectors or Double Suited Pairs plus Connector is the way to play this game.
My game is very loose so is 8s,8d,7d a good starting hand UTG? I believe it is.
From the flop on the game seems to play like a handycapped Omaha. I mean that its draw to the nuts but good hands like Top Two or Meduim Trips seem to hold up more often and should be played.
Comments?
Thanks, CV
I don't know who posted it, possibly Marc Gilutin? but Jerrod Ankenman (sp?) wrote a piece on the game called "Crazy Pineapple for Advanced Players" and posted it to RGP a while back.
Regards, Richard
It's Jerrod's stuff. I re-posted it once to r.g.p. because I put a bounty on Jerrod on some recent C.P. tourneys. I don't feel comfortable posting someone else's stuff anywhere but where I read it. If, for some reason, you don't have access to the Usenet, I would suggest going to http://www.deja.com/usenet/ and do a search for "Crazy Pineapple for Advanced Players".
That should do it.
As for me...I play Pineapple Hi-Lo once in awhile before my Omaha game starts and will take it seriously as soon as they include it in the WSOP
I assume you are considering High-Only Crazy Pineapple and not the HI-Lo version (8 or better)?
My scribbles suggest that with a flop like Q83, medium trips will be secondbest around 15% of the time against a loose table. Add to this the many instances when a flopped 8 would wind up low on the totem pole (consider the flops AK8, AQ8, AJ8, AT8, A98, KQ8, KJ8, KT8, K98, QJ8, QT8, Q98, JT8, J98, T98). Now subtract about 22% (from the total # of times the trip eights will win unimproved) when the flop comes 2-suited because you are forced to assume someone will be drawing for a flush 100% of the time with many loose pre-flop callers.
With so many people drawing for flushes, the value of straight draws goes way down. Also, I would not draw for a flush unless it was to the nuts or second-to-the nuts and the board was not paired.
For all the above reasons, I don't like 8d8c7c UTG. If you can see the flop cheaply with 5 or more other callers, then it's barely O.K. You're hoping for a flop like A 9 6 rainbow or for trips. [If you were referring to Hi-Lo Crazy Pineapple, then 8d8c7c is even weaker.] If you flop the flush, fold if you hear a pin drop. 8d8cAc is appreciably better but handle with caution.
BTW, against a large field, I would routinely fold 66 down to 22 every time, frequently fold 77, 88, and 99 especially from early position, call with TTJ, JJQ, QQJ UTG, raise with QQK, QQA, KKx, AAx, AKQ rainbow, AKJ rainbow, AQJ rainbow and sometimes AcKcQd, AcQcJd, AcKcJd from early position.
I was referring to High only.
I thought I might be playing it too loose, thanks. I'm surprized that you think KKx is worth raising in early position. I guess its borderline and if its playable you might as well try to get the pot short handed.
CV
You're right, I think, about KKx. I would tend to raise in early position only if confident that that would SEVERELY thin the field and call only if confident 5 or more other contestants will limp in. You can raise with less trepidation if there's extra oomph (KKQ 2-suited or KKJ 2-suited) to fall back on in case more players than you bargained for call your early-position raise. By the way, the addition of paint significantly lessons the odds of someone flopping top set or top two-pair when you hold a higher pair. For example, consider the flop Q T 5 when you hold KKQ. Now instead of three ways for someone else to hold QQ, there is only one; and instead of 9 ways for someone else to hold QT, there are now 6.
A couple of simple situations in 7 stud hilo. 8/16 Paradise Poker game
First, I limp in with 24/6 and on fourth street catch a J. I check and a player showing 57 bets. It will be headsup if I call. All low cards are live, only high cards folded. Is it ever correct to make this call?
2nd hand. I have 35/4 and the rest of the board is Q 2 4 4 7 T 3 (I have not specified suits since there are no possible flush draws in this example) Action on third street. 2 brings in for $4, 4 calls, 4 calls, 7 folds, T folds, 3 raises, I call the $8, Q folds, 2 calls, 4 calls, 4 calls
Fourth street board looks like this, 35/4J, 2J, 4T, 48, 3T It looks like everyone caught bad and most of my low straight cards are still alive..I am high on the board and check, 2J checks, 4T checks, 48 bets $8, 3T raises to $16.
What should I be thinking here. The players who raised to $16 ( after catching a very dead T) probably has a high pair in the hole and the 48 probably has a four card low,
I have never player this except at home for $1, but it sounds like a definite fold in the first case - you are almost certainly behind both ways (or trivially ahead for high)in a tiny, heads up pot. You are also out of position until he becomes definitely ahead for high.
In the 2nd case, fold here 2. A lot of the cards you need are probably out in the other low hands, even if you haven't seen them. Yuo caught another piece of junk, and could get jammed immediately, or on the next card. The pot will also likely be three- handed from here out, and jammed all the way down. I doubt it's worth seeing 5th.
Please let me know the terrible flaws in this reasoning. Thanks.
Best of luck.
First case: Fold
Second case: Call/Raise
- Andrew
there will never be enough in the pot headup for you to call in the 1st case Jim. 2nd case count up all the live cards you have left and you can see how this junky hand looks alot better.
since you always seem to catch a jack on fourth street, why dont you just play cards with a jack in the hole
in your 'theory of poker' it says the theories may not pertain to hilo split games. when figuring your pot odds against your odds of making your hand to decide if a call is warranted, do you cut your pot odds in half or use whole pot odds. if im drawing at the 'wheel' but just as easily could make a 7-5 for possibly only half the pot and im getting 10 to 1 on my money, does it drop to 5 to 1 because of the possible split? please email me the answer at HILOPRO@WEBTV.NET.
THANKS
Basically you are right. The pot odds do just cut in half. The wheel draw makes it a bit trickier. Consider the following.
Assume we're on 6th street, heads up. Assume you've seen 12 cards. Three 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s are live. You have A234 and two big cards. The opponent has 2 pair and none of his cards are live for the boat.
The pot has $60. It's 10 to call. Forget implied odds for now. We'll play it out 40 times : 9 times you hit a non-wheel low for 30. +270 3 times you hit a wheel for 60. +180 28 times you miss. -280
That's all there is to it. If you know you can't win high (you have 2367XX), then you simply reduce the pot odds by half since you are drawing for just half the pot. If you can win both ways, you must take that into account as above. If you can maybe win high (say by making two pair with aces) you need to read your opponent, figure what he has, figure your chance of going hi-lo, hi only, lo only and take it all into account.
mth
Loosish game, where it's not unusual to be getting 10 or more to 1 out of the BB in full kill game. Assuming you don't fear a raise, what are some of the bottom limit hands some of you good 08 players will call with? -- tnks.
The game is five handed. Blinds are 10/20.
I am in big blind with 1000. UTG, who is steaming a bit from a big loss on the prior pot, raises 50, and all others fold, I call in BB with
QdJsTs8d.
Flop comes 9s7s2c.
I check. Other guy bets 100 in a $110 pot. I call.
Turn comes Qc.
I check, and call a $150 bet into a $310 pot.
River comes 2h
I check, the bet to me is $400 in a $610 pot.
The player is capable of making near pot sized bets with busted draws.
Critique on my play to this point, and whether I should call with my top pair or not.
Thanks for any and all ideas.
M.
on the end you are getting about 2.5 to 1 for your call. if you think he would bluff in this spot often enough call if you think your queens can bet a bluff.
another way to play the hand is to raise on the flop and bet out on 4th street no matter what comes.
Yeah, I felt that my Queens would beat a bluff, since every concievable draw missed and the board paired low, meaning that if he had 2-pair plus a wrap (T987), then I would have caught him on the end.
M.
No-one's talked about a re-raise before the flop. Considering table image and the fact you think he's steaming, if he's got 1k+ also then a raise to 100-150 total is good here, and very deceptive. You must be check raising on the flop and basically trying to get all in whilst your outs are live - check calling is very weak and puts you to the hard decision you're wrestling with now. You shouldn't be making a decision on the river, you should be out of money.
good luck
dave d
a reraise before the flop against a steamer and being out of position in pot limit omaha is the fastest way to get alot of chips or get broke. and his hand is one that can be real good with the right flop but can also be dominated just as easily.
It is a high variance play, and I did say it depends on whther you really think he is steaming and on your own table image, which must be tight/agressive. Also you don't re-raise the whole pot, which with a lot of players slows them right down as they think they are "being played with". It really does depend on all the usual intangibles. For example is he the kind of player who thinks a re-raise from you is sure sign of aces, and will therefore make a move on an ugly flop for aces - which may just hit your hand perfectly. But if I was on the button I would definately reraise.
Dave D
which casinos, if any, have daily 7stud hilo games and at what limits?
The Bike has at least one $20/40 every day. Right now, the only smaller game is $1/2.
Foxwoods has a 2-10 spread-limit no-ante stud-8 game. This is about the worst structure I've ever seen for a game, and it's usually tight and shorthanded when they can even keep it going. Once I saw a 10-20 game there, but that is very rare.
The Trop in Atlantic City spreads 1-5 and 5-10 stud-8. The 5-10 is actually a decent game, and attracts pretty bad players. Having an ante and a fixed-limit makes a huge difference here. They occasionally have 10-20 or 15-30 games. They also have a $60(?) buy-in stud-8 tourney once a week that I've heard is quite profitable.
"The Trop in Atlantic City spreads 1-5 and 5-10 stud-8. The 5-10 is actually a decent game, and attracts pretty bad players. "
I played this game in AC and I find this statement to be true. 5-10 7s8 was actually a better game to play in than 1-5 at the same casino. 1-5 tended to have many, many raises with the pots being excessively huge a large % of the time. 5-10 tended to have the same type of players, but they played more passively, therefore leading to smaller swings for you and a better overall situation for a skilled player. I watched the 15-30 7s8 games often and they tended to be hyper-aggressive, more like you would expect. Overall, the 5-10 trop 7s8 game was a great game and I would play it whenever it was spread.
dave in cali
About what I've been playing, although it's good to get some world-class omaha comfirmation. Still, it's a drag to hit the flop and get beat for many bets with a hand you wouldn't have played otherwise. By the way, I like your Card Player stuff, badger, (good "voice" as we say in composition class) and (and I hope I'm not being too maudlin here) I genuinely appreciate your taking time away from winning poker to share some knowledge and experience.
piere
I agree. You should have gone all in on the turn. Why the call? Were you slow playing? Were you waiting to see if you still had the nuts on the end? There is really no slow playing a 4th street straight in PLO. It's not good enough. A straight flush maybe, but not a straight. And there's no action on 5th street if the straight holds up.
a Q-9-7-2-2 board does not allow for a straight in Omaha.
M.
This makes it a little different.... It's your decision whether or not to go all in on 4th street. It may be a good semi-bluff, depending on how the guy is tilting from the last hand. At any rate there is no way I would call or raise on 5th street.
Even if the person is very capable of betting a busted draw for a big bet on the end?
Incidentally, if I could do it all again, I'd check-raise the turn for the pot then check the river if I miss. That seems to be the general concensus from all the sources I've talked to.
Thanks for your help!
M.
.. presumably due to the large number of outs I had plus the fact that I might make a better hand (AA?? for instance) fold?
Given that I made that mistake, what about the call on the river?
M.
4-8 Omaha/8 game yesterday. I was not involved in this particular hand, but I think it is a classic example of a player who holds the current nut hand having to fold faced with a bet.
I'm sitting in the middle of the table in seat #6. Player to my immediate right is seeing virtually every flop (no bad hands, just bad flops syndrome). He is not guarding his hand very well, and I've cautioned him to take a little more care in protecting his hand from my line of vision. Anyway, on this hand, after everyone has called to see the flop, I can't help but see his hand. He has called UTG with a truly horrid mess: T-8-6-5 rainbow. I don't even want to get into the merits?? of that decision, but there ends up 7 players taking the flop.
Flop comes down 8s-7h-4h. Our hero has the current nut high. Bet comes out of the BB, and I quickly think to myself: "This guy has to fold. He at best will get half the pot, has virtually no redraws, and any 4,5,6,7,8,9,T or a heart is potentially a disaster. There are five limpers behind him waiting to pounce."
But of course, he doesn't fold. He raises. Bunch of callers, but no re-raise. Turn card is of course a 9, river is a heart, but our guy is in there right until the end. He bemoans his 'bad luck' about getting his powerhouse flop run over, and I just sit there silently wondering why this guy doesn't understand why he's stuck about $300 inside of 2 hours in this game.
"I'm sitting in the middle of the table in seat #6. Player to my immediate right is seeing virtually every flop (no bad hands, just bad flops syndrome)."
Many low-limit players do this in Omaha-8. It's much less of an error than it would be in holdem or stud. Also they can't be isolated like in holdem or stud, and if they could it would actually help their trash hands.
"He is not guarding his hand very well, and I've cautioned him to take a little more care in protecting his hand from my line of vision."
I would never alert someone of this.
"Anyway, on this hand, after everyone has called to see the flop, I can't help but see his hand. He has called UTG with a truly horrid mess: T-8-6-5 rainbow. I don't even want to get into the merits?? of that decision, but there ends up 7 players taking the flop."
Hey, Omaha hands run close in value, right? :) Do you think that hand even has 1% equity?
"Flop comes down 8s-7h-4h. Our hero has the current nut high. Bet comes out of the BB, and I quickly think to myself: "This guy has to fold. He at best will get half the pot, has virtually no redraws, and any 4,5,6,7,8,9,T or a heart is potentially a disaster. There are five limpers behind him waiting to pounce."
He needs two total blanks to hit, it may cost him several bets to get to the end, the pot will grow on the later streets, but one if not more other people could easily have the same straight, and even if everything works out he gets half the pot. How many bets would have to be in the pot to make a call correct here? If there were 22 or 29 bets, then it becomes more of a decision.
"But of course, he doesn't fold. He raises."
It's Canadian money.
"Bunch of callers, but no re-raise. Turn card is of course a 9, river is a heart, but our guy is in there right until the end. He bemoans his 'bad luck' about getting his powerhouse flop run over, and I just sit there silently wondering why this guy doesn't understand why he's stuck about $300 inside of 2 hours in this game."
They never understand. I think fish like Omaha since (1) they can play a lot of hands without getting burned, (2) hands like straights, flushes, and full houses are regular occurences, and (3) they so often win part of the pot. The variance *among bad players* is high even if this game is low variance for a rock.
I warned him about flashing his cards mainly because I do not normally sit in seats 4-7. He does. I got the last available seat when the game fired up. If he keeps flashing his hand, the next time it will be an opponent who gets the benefit of seeing his hand, not me.
I know (think?) you are being facetious about the Canadian money thing. Mock us if you will, but it still pays for goods and services, and without a state sales tax here in Alberta, may I remind you. (don't bother bringing up GST).
Anyway, it's play like this that helped me make $225 in 3 hours in that game.
Dunc,
You said: "I warned him about flashing his cards mainly because I do not normally sit in seats 4-7."
1. Why do you not sit in seats 4-7?
2. And why would this affect whether or not you warn him?
Thanks.
Jon I.
In the standard 10-handed game, I prefer to seat in seats 2,3,8 or 9 if I have a choice, especially seats 2 and 9 because seats 1 and 10 are non-smoking. I don't smoke and this way at least I am assured of having at least one of my next door neighbors not smoking. Also, I like to be able to see the whole table without having my head on a swivel all the time watching for tells, player reactions to flops, etc.
Anyway, I have observed that this particular player likes to sit in the middle of the table. Sure, it is an advantage if he is inadvertently flashing his cards to me, but in the long run, I am not usually going to be his neighbor, and I don't want him being in the habit of exposing cards to other players, because I'm not generally going to be the one getting the benefit.
about the Canadian money thing. Mock us if you will, but it still pays for goods and services, and without a state sales tax here in Alberta, may I remind you. (don't bother bringing up GST).
ah, it's worth citing just for kicks. canadia. i refer you all to previous similar bemusings about canadia and the monetary value thereof in the archives for hilarious consequences.
and be sure to bother bringing up GST
all in good fun.
Joe
I can't beleive this hand that I saw played out last night.
I was playing 7 stud 8 or better. I have been reading Super/System so I folded my kings in the hole with a 5 showing. (I would fold this anyway, but as it happened one king and one 5 were dead.)
I'm glad I did, because if I hadn't this miracle hand never could have happened.
The player to the seat on the left of me showed me his hand - A35 of diamonds with the 5 of diamonds showing. This is a powerful hand in this game and no doubt he showed me because he recognized it's power too.
He was in last position so he put a raise on it. 6 people in!
I watched as the next cards were being dealt out - I just knew he was going to get another diamond - which one? He caught the 4 of diamonds! Gutshot straight flush wheel draw in 4 cards!
High card was an ace. Ace checked, a Q 9 bet, called around, my friend, raised, capped, all still in!
Next card came out - the Q 9 caught another 9, my friend caught the 2 of diamonds on the fifth card! Straight flush wheel in 5 cards! The odds of this are the same as getting a pat royal flush in draw poker in the first 5 cards. I'm sure I'll never see it again.
Anyway, to make a long story short, the Q9 started with trip queens, and filled on the fifth card! Of course he thought that the other guy was either going low, or had a flush, so he was jamming the pot just as hard as the steel wheel.
My friend, needless to say, dragged a HUGE pot. Unbelievable.
-SmoothB-
I haven't read Super/System (it's on my list of things to do this summer), but the high-low stud section was written for a game with no qualifier for low. With the qualifier, a pair of kings is not an automatic fold. It does well in a small field, as you have a reasonable chance of scooping if the lows don't get there. Obviously, this was a good hand to get out on.
the chance of getting a,2,3,4,5, of diamonds is the same as getting all four kings with the 5 of clubs.
where were you playing and what limits??? and do they play this game there daily? email me.
In poker, as everywhere in life, you will make mistakes. Given that, playing as well as you can after you have made your mistake is critical. Thus, my motivation for asking about the call on the river (I've already accepted that not check-raising the turn all-in with this monstrous draw is wrong) is fueled by wanting to know if I made 1 mistake or 2.
M.
I have been thinking a lot about Omaha 8 or better recently. I cannot for the life of me beat this game.
Let's look at a few scenarios and you tell me what the correct plays are.
1) You have AK spades and AQ of clubs. UTG calls, you raise, 2 callers, blinds call, original caller calls. 6 people in the pot, 6BB in.
Flop comes 6s 7s Th. SB bets, 2 drop, folded to you. 2 remain to act. What do you do here? There are 6 1.2 BB in the pot and at most 4 people in. You have no chance for low, and 9 outs for a draw to the nut high (assuming no straight flush). Let's say you call and the other 2 call. Your call here is acceptable but a raise is out of the question because you are only getting 1:1 odds.
Turn comes 4 h. SB bets. Now what do you do? There are 10 1/2 BB in the pot. This makes the call marginal at best but makes a raise totally out of the question. You can only count on 7 outs to be good because the other 2 pair the board.
Comments appreciated. More problems will follow in this thread.
-SmoothB-
Here is another problem.
You have AKs AQc on the button. 3 callers, you raise, everyone calls. 6 people in pot, 6 BB in.
Flop comes Ah 4h 5d. SB bets, 2 fold, raise, call, now its up to you. Assume everyone will call all bets. There are 4 in the pot and 8.5 BB in the pot. You MAY have the best hand right now but it is unlikely to stay that way unless the board pairs or you get quads, so consider that you have 7 outs now and then 10 outs if the board doesnt pair/you dont make quads on the turn. So consider that you have the same odds as a flush draw roughly. You are getting 1:1 on a bet, so you cannot raise. The pot is giving you 8.5 to 1 odds on call, so that is feasible.
Now the turn comes 7 h. Bet, call, raise. What do you do? You have 10 outs. The pot is giving you 14:2 odds. Assuming there is no reraise a call is reasonable, but knock a bit off just in case you are forced to call on the river when you miss.
This example is somewhat clear - you have to call to the river regardless. But I think raising is out of the question at any stage.
Comments?
-SmoothB-
The point of this thread is to show that, even when you get a big hand and the flop hits it hard, your bets or calls never have much value because of all the collective outs out there.
Now, the scenarios I posed were pretty rosy. A situation like those does not pop up very often. More often you end up flopping nothing, 2 pair, bottom trips, 4th nut low draw, open ender with 2 flush on board, etc.
If you only wait for choice cards, and then only play when the deck hits you in such a way that your bets and calls have positive expectation, I just can't see how you can possibly survive leakeage suffered through paying the blinds.
Personally I think that for 99% of all players, including me, the game is nothing but a crapshoot.
Think about this. Take 100-200 omaha game and force the button to pay a 1000 dollar dead button fee. Now the game is a true crapshoot, right?
Now take a 100-200 omaha game and have a 1 dollar ante. Beatable.
So somewhere along the continuum of blind structures there is a point where the game turns from beatable with skill, to a crapshoot. Where is that fine line? I believe that it has already been exceeded by the present blind structure.
I also believe that is why this game is a favorite with weak players. Why? It's like playing slots. They will still lose money, but their lack of skill is not that much of a liability so they won't lose it as fast as they will at a REAL skill game like no limit holdem.
SmoothB
Hmmm. I don't have time to answer right now. On my way to play Omaha high/low. Got to be at Hollywood Park by 7:00 p.m. for the start of the tournament. Hope you're wrong about the game being unbeatable or a crapshoot.
Buzz
You stated the reason Omaha HiLo is a profitable game.
You wrote: I also believe that is why this game is a favorite with weak players. Why? It's like playing slots. They will still lose money, but their lack of skill is not that much of a liability so they won't lose it as fast as they will at a REAL skill game like no limit holdem.
A game with several weak players is not that unusual in Omaha HiLo. Look for these games. They are your bread and butter.
You have AKs AQc on the button. 3 callers, you raise, everyone calls. 6 people in pot, 6 BB in.
O.K.
Flop comes Ah 4h 5d. SB bets, 2 fold, raise, call, now its up to you.
You would have to call a double bet. Between the SB and the raiser one of them probably has 23XX. I think you reluctantly fold here, unless you're playing with idiots. And tend to fold even if you are playing with idiots. You are only playing for only half the money and you are an underdog to get half. Fold.
This example is somewhat clear - you have to call to the river regardless. But I think raising is out of the question at any stage.
I wouldn't call the double bet on the flop. I agree it's a tough hand to fold, but folding is in order. (Don't ever let any of your opponents know you folded the trip aces).
Buzz
SmoothB -
1) You have AK spades and AQ of clubs. UTG calls, you raise, 2 callers, blinds call, original caller calls. 6 people in the pot, 6BB in.
Raise is O.K. Call is O.K. I mix it up with a hand like this pre-flop. You definitely have a playable hand even though you have no low. You're hoping for a flop with with either an ace, JTX, two or three clubs, or two or three spades - and either with 1 low card (so the suckers will continue to play) or with 0 low cards.
You're not in very good position if there are two callers behind you. This won't matter until the later rounds. But if you don't make your hand by the turn, then you might have trouble calling.
Flop comes 6s 7s Th. SB bets, 2 drop, folded to you. 2 remain to act. What do you do here?
You caught two spades, which is part of what you wanted, but the chance of a low is even better than the chance of a spade flush. You have mixed feelings. Again, I think you mix up your bet here raising sometimes and calling sometimes, but raising more than calling. My ratio of raising to calling in this situation is about 3:1.
If you raise, you might drive out the callers behind you and gain position, which very well might matter in a later round.
There are 6 1.2 BB in the pot and at most 4 people in. You have no chance for low, and 9 outs for a draw to the nut high (assuming no straight flush). Let's say you call and the other 2 call. Your call here is acceptable but a raise is out of the question because you are only getting 1:1 odds.
This is still a small bet round. If you raise here, you may get a free card on the next round, which is a big bet round. If you hit a third spade on the turn you should bet it, assuming that it isn't the ten of spades. Whether you raise (or call) on this round or not, if a spade appears on the turn the other players will likely be very cautious.
Turn comes 4 h. SB bets. Now what do you do? There are 10 1/2 BB in the pot. This makes the call marginal at best but makes a raise totally out of the question. You can only count on 7 outs to be good because the other 2 pair the board.
What you do here depends on your read of the other players. SB probably has the nut low, perhaps with a couple of hearts. If you had raised after the flop you might have inhibited SB from betting into you on this round. Probably not, but maybe. Oh well, that's water under the bridge now. If you sense a raise coming here, fold for sure. Even if you don't sense a raise coming tend towards folding because of your poor position. If you were last to bet you might be tend to call here.
Buzz
SmoothB:
I read your entries and here's some advice. I agree that Omaha-8 is a very tricky game that only after allot of play does one really begin feeling comfortable with. Whether your coming from 7-stud, or it sounds like in your case Hold'em (and I like these players), you may not understand entirely what are good starting hands and in turn what are good flops to continue you with. The starting hand you quoted with Ace-King suited Ace-Queen suited is not as good as you think it is. You have to understand that once that flop hits with two or three lows, your expected pot earnings is already for the most part halved. Moreover, with any flop hands get made much easier so anytime a board pairs, you very well could be looking at a boat. This game is truly a game of knowing your starting hands, position, and catching a flop to continue on with. It really takes a while to learn this game. Just watch the many dealers who need assistance from the players once the cards are shown.
Finally, it should also be included that Omaha-8 seems to be a game where the skill levels of the players seem to be worlds apart. Players seem to either know the game inside-out, or seem to just love playing a game where they get four cards and a flop, a.k.a, poker-bingo. If you want to make money in this game, play in the Midwest where it seems allot of farmers like this game and play damn near anything. If you play at the Mirage in the 4-8 half kill game with no knowledge of starters and good flops, you'll leave empty handed to those daily retirees.
Good luck,
JPN in Madison
SmoothB - Well, I lost in the Omaha high/low tournament tonight. Usually there's a hand I wish I'd played differently and figure that I payed for a lesson. This time no. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. (My apologies to David Sklansky for ending a sentence with a preposition).
Driving over was a horrid mess. The Santa Monica freeway was backed up to the coast. Took a short cut through Santa Monica. Ugh. They're putting in street dividers to make the streets narrower and slow down the traffic - and they're successful. Ugh. Made it to Hollywood Park just in time to finish out the first round,