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Here is the right equation (I think). The cost of calling is 2:
A (3 b + 3 c) - 36 * 2 = 0
David,
I don't think you can calculate it as simply as this. You must factor in the possibility that someone has or makes concealed trips or (more likely) two pair, or four to a flush. It depends a lot on your opponents as well. It's definitely a play to consider though. You should be more inclined to call with a two flush and/or another high card or two. And if you have the highest or second-highest upcard, a raise is worth thinking about and might be better.
If I hit the Ace in this spot I quite like to check-raise on 4th, I have had some good things happen lately when I do this.
Andy.
Thank you for your response.
First, you will not have the highest up-card since the high card brings it in. But i do agree that a raise is correct sometimes.
I meant to say that your average winnings will be higher than the pot. So, yes, my calculation includes those times you lose the pot (to hidden trips and other hands).
/D
Here's a hand I played tonight in a $30-$60 stud game at The Bellagio. (The ante is $5 and the bring-in is $10.)
The game was four handed. A deuce of spades was the bring-in. A Qd raised. I was next with a 6h and had 5h5c in the hole. I reraised. The last player on my left with the 5s up called the two bets cold. The bring-in folded. The player with the Qd up raised again. Both of us called.
On fourth street, the player on my left caught the remaining 5 to pair his door card. He bet $60. The player with the Qd caught a blank and called. I caught the Ah (which gave me a three flush to go along with my pair of fives) and raised. The player with the paired door card raised again. The original raiser with the Qd folded, and I called.
On fifth street my opponent caught a king and I caught a worthless card. He bet and I called.
On sixth street my opponent caught another king (giving him two pair, kings and fives on board) and bet. I caught another worthless card and raised.
On the river my opponent checked, I bet, and he folded.
All comments are welcome.
He calls the raise on 6th; doesn't this almost force him to call on 7th irregardless of his river card?
Pot laying me 19-1 against a tough opponent I'd've called without even looking at my final card, but I've got no experience at higher level Stud.
I guess this question is for the experts, but if Bill is right is there any reason someone should correctly fold with such good odds, assuming that the odds are correct? The mere fact that I am up against a good player who might be making a move on the hand alone makes this worth a call. Personally, and keep in mind that I have no experience at high limit stud, I would have bet/raised on the end if I were Mason's opponent.
Aside from having marked cards, there is really no way for the 2P to KNOW he is beaten so that it is correct to fold,or at least that is how I look at it, from the perspective of a 5-10 player.
thats a tough one for the floorman as its not a clear decision. next time say ill take the seat and give him 15 minutes to return then its my seat. but you did right by crying loud enough and the sqweaky wheel got the grease.
The house made a couple of errors. First, the board should not affect whether a player gets an absent button, only whether and when the player gets picked up. Second, the seat should be given to a player ready to play immediately, although drawing cards for the absentees seems reasonable to determine the reat of the order.
Aggressive play is definitely the best way to play, and check-raising should be done not infrequently. Although every once ina while it can get you into trouble (see my post regarding high pairs that do not improve) the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Just in my last session I noticed that the pots I won were frequently 50% higher than other pots, due to aggressive betting.
As a 5-10 player, most of the players are terrible. I played with one guy who checked 3 k's on three streets b/c he was afraid of being beaten!! I would love to have this guy at every game I played.
Pat
"Many players will slow down with high pairs when they don't improve. This is generally a mistake, but is a common one. His range of possible hands for you includes an unimproved 3-flush, a small pair-high kicker, or a high pocket pair.
In a recent trip to AC, I observed that the tight players often won. When they go in, your best option is to fold. I found myself sqeaking out wins with high two pairs against the overly agressive players, but also losing to them sometimes just because they would call all the way to the river or would sometimes would actually have a hand.
Check raising is not as effective as re-raising, which can stop the loose players in their tracks; but if they bet into you, you're probably in trouble.
In reality, there is usually a mix of players at the table. What I found most frustrating was watching the money go back and forth between the two or three loose players while I keep getting weak starting hands. I couldn't go in with moderate hands, because the betting was two much and multi-way pots were common. I found myself hoping the bad players would win the tight player's money and give me a chance to get their money, but I would also sometimes lose to the loose players when they made their hands.
One may be able to bet the tight players out of the hand, but if they stay in, fold. Against the loose players, you could play a high pair, but a little less then half the time, you are going to be beaten on or near the river or when they actually do have something. So you have be sensitive to reading those loose players who will bet into you if they have something (or if they don't). If there is more then one of them, you are going to be in a multi-way pot. You can only hope that when you get a good hand they will pay you off, that you will get a little lucky with your draw hands even when you are playing the odds, and that you will be able to tell when you are up against a real hand.
Patience is a real asset. If you find yourself at a table with passive players, consider yourself lucky. Take advantage. If you find yourself against tight players, do bet; but be careful when they call, bet, or re-raise. If you find yourself against loose players, try to get into the pots with them, but not if another tight player is in it, too, and only with hands that can bet them.
When you do isolate those loose players, you have to have a high pair, or sometimes a low pair with a high kicker. It's going to cost you too much money to go in against them with marginal hands. They will go to the river often no matter how you bet.
You may find yourself sitting there playing tight, because the loose players are forcing the action and the tight players are coming in with strong hands. Bluffing or semi-bluffing is tough, because when the tight players call, you're in trouble; and the loose players often refuse to fold. Your stuck playing tight, trying to isolate the loose players, and when you can't, folding early.
Please feel free to comment.
in tight games raise enough so you are showing a profit on steals. if the games are loose always fold. under the gun is tough to steal from unless the game is very tight or the players are so stupid to say to themselves " why would anyone raise under the gun without kings". when im last i always raise the bringin unless he always calls then i play accordingly.
All of you say raise with that hand when you act last on third street. Why?
The way I see it, your hand is weak and needs improvement. Even if it does improve, you may not want players committed to the pot. Your goal may be to get in cheaply, and that is exactly what you can do acting last. If you don't improve by fourth street, which is likely, you will have to fold. So why throw in the extra bet?
because many or most times you win the antes when last and no one is in yet, and you raise. if you give the low card a free one you are asking for trouble.
Raising when only you and the bring-in are left puts the pressure on the bring-in. He has a choice to make. If he feels he has to "protect" his initial investiment, then great--I hope he calls all the time. If he raises me back, I have the opportunity to fold if I think he is holding good cards. Him being first with the lowest card showing is a distinct disadvantage, and one should exploit it as long as it shows a profit.
3rd street steals usually give you pot odds of 4-3, so if you win 50%, you will show a profit. Remember you have the same chance of improvement as he does, and now he has to make the decisions. Suppose he calls. If you raise and match your door card (6%) you win right there.
"Q2: Suppose you are in seat 8 and are heads-up with bring in; should you raise 100% of the time?"
I understand raising when you are in seat 2. That's where I got confused. In seat 8, if others come in ahead of you, would you still raise? That is the situation I was thinking of when I wrote the post. Sorry for the confusion.
6 handed 30-60 stud game...
3rd street:
Seat 1 brings it in with the 2h, seat 3 (fairly good player) raises with the 6h, I reraise with (5dAd)5c 6c, 6s, 9s fold, seat 3 reraises, I call. Heads up.
Q1: What kind of hand do you give him here?
4th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8d, I have (5dAd)5cQd. I check, he bets, I call.
5th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8dJc, I have (5dAd)5cQd7s. I check and he checks behind me.
Q2: What kind of hand do you give him here, and what does he think I have at this point?
6th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8dJc8h, I have (5dAd)5cQd7sTd. He bets.
Q3: Do you raise, call, or fold here?
I chose to call.
7th street:
He bets.
Q4:
If you catch a blank, what is your move? If you catch 2 pair smaller than 8's up, what is your move? If you catch 2 pair larger than 8's up, what is your move? If you catch trips, what is your move? If you catch a flush, what is your move? Why?
Q1: With only the two of you left in the hand, he almost certainly has a high pocket pair. Your raise looks like an isolation raise, but you could easily have a pocket pair and a good player would be unlikely to reraise you with a 3-flush here.
Q2: Many players will slow down with high pairs when they don't improve. This is generally a mistake, but is a common one. His range of possible hands for you includes an unimproved 3-flush, a small pair-high kicker, or a high pocket pair.
Q3: You definitely don't fold with a live flush draw in this size pot. A five or ace will almost certainly win the pot for you, and a queen might. There's no reason to raise here, since he isn't folding now or on the river when you have that board and he likely has a high two pair. Your equity, while smaller than 50%, is clearly enough to call.
Q4: I wouldn't bluff raise here unless I had a very good read on him. Also, consider that given the action in the hand anything less than kings up is unlikely, and that a full house is very possible. Queens up and lower can safely go in the muck. With aces up, three fives, or a flush, you make the decision based on his river play. If he filled, would he check and go for two bets? He might try and induce a bluff with two pair or a full.
"Many players will slow down with high pairs when they don't improve. This is generally a mistake, but is a common one. His range of possible hands for you includes an unimproved 3-flush, a small pair-high kicker, or a high pocket pair."
Betting a high pair can be costly, even heads up, particularly when you know the other player is going to call you to the river no matter what. A good approach may be to bet until your opponent's board improves or if you read a real hand behind his board.
"Q2: Many players will slow down with high pairs when they don't improve. This is generally a mistake, but is a common one. His range of possible hands for you includes an unimproved 3-flush, a small pair-high kicker, or a high pocket pair."
It's only a mistake when you're not yet heads up. The only reason I see to keep raising is to get head up. Once you get heads up, there is little reason to raise, particularly if you know the guy if going to call you to the river. Yes, you have the odds in this situation, and that may be a reason to continue betting; but if you read that he's already hit his hand , even even head up, you should fold. One way to tell if he's hit his hand or not is to check and see if he bets.
6 handed 30-60 stud game...
3rd street:
Seat 1 brings it in with the 2h, seat 3 (fairly good player) raises with the 6h, I reraise with (5dAd)5c 6c, 6s, 9s fold, seat 3 reraises, I call. Heads up.
Q1: What kind of hand do you give him here?
**Unless you two are at war in the game, I give him a buried pair. With dead six, he probably wont reraise with 6's or 3 flush (20% for this vs 80% for high pair, in my estimation.
4th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8d, I have (5dAd)5cQd. I check, he bets, I call.
5th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8dJc, I have (5dAd)5cQd7s. I check and he checks behind me.
Q2: What kind of hand do you give him here, and what does he think I have at this point? **If he is a slightly weak player, I give him 8's or 9's in the hole 6th street:
Seat 3 has (xx)6h8dJc8h, I have (5dAd)5cQd7sTd. He bets.
Q3: Do you raise, call, or fold here?
Call. You are beat. He will call on end.
I chose to call.
7th street:
He bets.
Q4:
If you catch a blank, what is your move? If you catch 2 pair smaller than 8's up, what is your move? If you catch 2 pair larger than 8's up, what is your move? If you catch trips, what is your move? If you catch a flush, what is your move? Why?
**This is just a gut reaction, but I would call with any hand that beats 8's but not raise with any hand less than trips or aces/queens up. This really depends on the opponent and how he reads you. He will bet any two pair on the end figuring you might call because he checked on 5th. I would not raise without improvement as he will not fold two pair and might even call with just the 8's. It really depends on the player. I know a lot of players that if they bet in this spot I don't even have to look at my river unless I flush and then have to pray opponent flushed and will just call. But most are not like that. Sight unseen, raise with queens or aces up or better, call if beat 8's, fold otherwise.
wgaf
Without looking below
Q1:3rd st:I give him a pocket pair here >9, and it does not necessarily A or K since the board is small. I do not think he has a 3 flush, but might have a pair with 2 suited and a possibly a pair with a gap.
Q2:Again, a pair or possibly a gap straight It’s a tough call here. I definitely would not raise here. he has too many possibilities and should reraise if he is a good player. Your board shows “nothing scary”. If you play here I think you have to go the end. Lets say I call.
Q3:Pretty obvious here:
Q4:blank = check/fold
small pair = check/fold
large pair or better=check/call
no raise here because of the possibility of a full house. I’ll take the 1 bet win rather than risk 3 bets.
On 6th street I had already thought about what I would do depending on what card I caught on the river. At this point, it seemed to me that he either had just the pair of 8's (bluffing with the best hand, since I cannot even beat the hand he thinks he's bluffing with), or a monster hand, such as jacks full. Since my board wasn't scary, the check on 5th street just wasn't consistent with him having just a pair at that point, in my opinion.
My decision was to bluff raise him if I didn't catch another pair, and call with any other hand, up to and including a flush. I notice that this didn't coincide with anyone else's train of thought on this problem, which was the main reason I posted this in the first place.
Anyway, I caught a blank on the river, and raised, and he thought a few seconds and mucked. I'm guessing he had just the 8's, which was what I had thought.
I meant to say that I'd just call with a hand up to and including trips, but raise with a flush, as him having a flush draw at this point was fairly likely, and if we both hit, I likely have him beat...
" but raise with a flush, as him having a flush draw at this point was fairly likely, and if we both hit, I likely have him beat... "
So he was on a flush draw more than likely no hidden pair and reraising with a three flush does not seem unlikely to me as some have stated. He was trying to win it on 4th and was probably going to fold on 6th but hit a pair plus a heart and tried to win it again. Reraising was perfect in this situation especially when he doesn't improve. Just for curiosity what was your 7th card??
Paul
My guess was he had 2 high flush cards in the hole as well, therefore explaining his excitement over his 6th street card.
My river was a 2.
Sounds like you had a better read on him then your post implyed. Likely he had an unimproved pair and read you for two pair or better. If he had paired on the river, he would have called.
I agree he would have called if he had paired. He seemed to want to call even without improving, as it took him a bit of time to fold his hand.
I purposely made it sound like I didn't read my opponent well so that it wouldn't influence other's opinions about what he had. I was more interested in what others thought of the situation.
Your opponent is obviously a poor player since with the dead 6 up, he has to know that you must go to the river with him with any pair unless he pairs the board. With a really dead door, it's foolish to triple bet with a three flush because you can't hit open 6's to win and because your opponent with a pair is encouraged that you won't make two pair so he will go to the end with you.
I agree, he must be a very weak player. Why can't I get to play against this guy? Who knows, maybe I have...
I'm sure you played with a lot worse.
I think you played dangerous ...baaa
I think you played dangerous ...baaa
55% of the time you have 2pair after the the river so you played against the odds but....you won
hehe if you catch blank you should fold knowing that he has a pair in 8s and you in 5s
You should read a book of 7card stud
1) Not only is reraising Ok it is probably the best play, and calling is clearly incorrect. You want to play against 1 other player besides the K or heads up.
2)with limpers it is a definite raise if you believe that theraise will knock some of them out. If you can only play multiway,you are better off folding or limping for one card at most. You do not want to play this hand mutiway, especially because someone may be limping in with just an A or AKx.
3) With the A up I would definitely reraise. Not only will you likely knock out everyone but the K, and possibly the K also if you read the "castration hand" posts, you also set up a good semibluff. If you catch a scary card on 4th st. or if you pair your board you will likely get the K to fold.
Depending on the up cards, my position, how many callers and the nature of the game/players, I most likely raise if I had an Ace showing and a pocket pair. I have about a 12% chance of winning on 4th street if I catch a scary card (Ace) or my pair card (4). If I get suited, that helps.
I certainly would NOT raise if there were players in before me, and would consider folding the A,4,4 depending on what the board looked like. I figure I am beat on 3rd street and have only 5 outs. I would stay if I can get in cheaply (like 1 complete bet from 3-10), but not a raise from 10 to 20.
It seems to me that Pineapple would be alluring to the novice or recreational poker player because so many more hands can seem playable. For instance, compared to Hold'em, one starts with a pair about twice as often. I've never played pineapple except in home games, but I'm tempted to don gladiator garb and join the fray at the nearby card club. I'm harboring a suspicion that at the entry levels (3-6, 6-12) pineapple could prove to be more profitable than Hold'em for the disciplined tight-truculent player. Anyone care to dispute or corroborate?
That pineapple is one crazy game.
I think Pineapple should be played in the home, on holidays, with the kids, the cousins etc and certainly not in a casino. It is fun, but not a casino game. i canpicture the confusion now. Holdem and Stud cause novices problems. Ever sit at an Omaha table with 2 novices? get the picture?
When I used the term "novices," I meant those people new to casino poker. Plenty of people (millions?) play home poker who have never visited a poker parlor or casino poker room. They head to the blackjack or craps tables or to the slots instead. The reason? They are looking for ACTION; it's like preferring football and basketball to baseball. I admit that casino Omaha is too intimidating to the majority of poker players no matter what, but most home games already incorporate Pineapple into the mix and the rules are almost identical to Hold'em, simple enough to play if difficult to master. Aren't more people likely to see the flop in Pineapple than in Hold'em? Consequently, doesn't the ACTION quotient get juiced up? In turn enticing more gamblers to the tables? In Hold'em, junk hands are commonest. As for the blinds, there one is afforded lousy position with inferior cards most of the time. Hardly the most appetizing of situations. Comparatively, in Pineapple, isn't there more of an opportunity for otherwise marginal hands to become playable in the blinds?
Mark Harris said:
"I think Pineapple should be played in the home."
Close, Marc. It should be played in *a* home.
No, what I said is that Pineapple is already being played in home poker games. I believe one of the other posters opined that that's where it belongs. Since I've never tried casino Pineapple, I'm not biased one way or the other. I'm just wondering what game at the low levels of 3-6, 4-8, 5-10 affords the very good player with a limited bankroll the best advantage over the long haul assuming s/he can adapt optimally to the specific nuances incumbent to each game. Maybe it's Omaha, maybe it's Hold'em, maybe it's Simon Says.
I am in a very good 4-8 Omaha-8 game - in a full 9-handed game 6+ players see most flops. The game last night went short, and for more than an hour we were 5-6 handed. I have been having nice success just following the directions in HLSPFAP, starting with A2 and A3 hands and 4-card highs and a few additional hands, only drawing to the nuts, etc.
For 5-6 handed, I did not know how to adjust! I have not seen this discussed in books, articles, or this forum. It has certainly been heavily discussed for Hold'em, up to the point where heads-up you want to play 50% or more of your hands.
There must be a gradual loosening-up of both starting hand standards and post-flop standards to proceed, as the game gets shorter. Does anyone have a system? As I said, this would be for a very loose game - even at 6-handed, 4 players saw many flops.
Thanks ... Dick
Reminder! Everyone should send in their picture to my gallery of 2+2 posters, which is at Dick's Poker Page. E-mail to me or send a regular photo to my snail mail address found at my contacts page. ...Dick
I'm just an O8 novice, but I suspect that in a 6-handed game with 4 people seeing most flops, you don't really need to alter your standards too much, since the pots are still multiway. If a pot ends up being heads up though, the usual advice about heads up play from HLSPFAP applies.
The main reason you can loosen up in a shorthanded hold'em game is because shorthanded hold'em tends to be a semi-bluffing and bluffing game, and your main objective when opening the pot is to steal the blinds or get heads up with a blind. But in the shorthanded O8 game you describe, people are playing many hands and probably chasing a lot, so you won't be able to steal any pots. And, there are enough people contesting each pot that you can't play non-nut draws safely.
-Sean
I'm no O-8 expert, but I cut my poker teeth on Omaha high. I'd play my high hands aggressively and abandon my low draws early if there aren't enough callers to justify a low draw. Some people argue that raising pre-flop in O-8 merely increases your variance and gives others the odds to draw out on you. I think that in short-handed O-8, you have to raise pre-flop with big high hands to exploit your pre-flop advantage. For instance, I'd raise preflop with KKxx in a short-handed O-8 game, whereas I might muck it in a full game if the xx didn't coordinate with solid lows, straights, or 2-flushes.
The fewer players pre-flop, the less likely that someone will make a low even if the board ultimately comes with a possible low. I'd advocate punishing the low draws with your solid high cards pre-flop and on the flop. I'd also recommend more value betting of the river with non-nut hands if you have reason to suspect you are leading. For instance, be more inclined to bet non-nut flushes with an un-paired board, especially when it's checked to you in late position. Likewise, consider betting your trips on the end when the board is paired and you think you're in the lead. The more short-handed the game, the less likely the nuts are out. If your opponents have properly adjusted to the short handed aspect of the game, you may need to make more marginal calls on the river as well.
till you get better play tight. but as the games get shorter loosen up a little on your opening hands. one thing you will want to do is play more ace three and ace four hands with another high low card as you will make weak lows and aces up for high and scoop some headup pots that you would never be in when the game is full. when shorthanded many hands will be won with very poor lows. the big thing is to see what your oppoments are opening with, and if they have good hands dont play behind them without good stuff.
In the Omaha-8 game I play in, nobody knows proper starting hand selection. Nobody. But last night, a young guy sat down next to me, and he was bragging to his friend across the table about how he only played quality hands. I just kept my mouth shut. Sure enough, he was folding often enough that I thought maybe he really was following the same principles that I was. He folded and folded, and then finally he was in a hand. While playing the hand, he continued to tell his friend what a great starting hand he had, blah blah blah. Well, at the end, the board had an A 3 plus at least one other low card, and he very proudly said, "Now that's a quality hand!" as he turned over his
Dick
So what hands do you think he was folding?
Please, if you see him again, tell him I'm sending a limo from Los Angeles...if he'll just bring money.
Well ... Remember I said he was the tightest. You would like the rest of the players in this game even better. Just send a van that seats 8.
On second thought, I want them to stay here.
Dick
Well maybe he's laughing too. You don't give details like what position he was in, or what it cost him to enter the pot with this bunch of loose fish, or exactly what cards flopped. But he did show down the nut hand.
He was probably folding stuff like AsKsAcQc. After all, you can't make a low. :)
-SmoothB-
I've not read any O-8 literature yet. I just had my first significant exposure to O-8 this week. What is the consensus as to the best possible starting hand in O-8 and why? Thanks.
This is my opinion based on nothing more than intuition and experience, but I'd have to go with AhAc2c3h, with other suits, of course, being equivalent. In Omaha/8 it is very important that you have the nuts or be drawing to the nuts. This hand gives you the nut low draw with a redraw in case an ace or deuce comes. You have two ace-high flush possibilites. And the pair of aces can give you the top set or the top full house. We got into this discussion at a stud/8 table a couple of weeks ago, and a knowledgeable player said that he'd rather have AhAcKc2h, but I think having the low redraw is more important than the slightly improved high possibilities.
Having counterfeit protection for your low draw is way more important than having a slightly improved high draw. It's not like AK can make all that many straights in the first place, (only with exactly QJT) and you have no need to make top two since you'll have top set at the same time. But, if you hold an uncounterfeitable low on the turn, you can "go to war" since you know there's no way you can lose whatever portion of the pot you've already won, and if you're currently quartered and uncounterfeitable, the card that counterfeits the other low player might give you the entire low half.
The Shane Smith Omaha book implied that AK23 double suited was the best starting hand, but I think that's completely erroneous. Why would I want to exchange an nut flush draw and a chance at top set for a second nut flush draw and a chance at top two or a 1-way broadway?
-Sean
In pot-limit or a tight or shorthanded limit game, I'd take AA23 double suited.
Someone suggested that in loose, full limit games, A2KK double suited might be the best hand of all. In showdowns against a large field it doesn't win as often as AA23 double suited, but it has a better chance to scoop a large multiway pot, and the pots it wins with a set should be larger since an ace on board tends to kill the action. Also, there are three aces out instead of two, so there's more of a chance for someone to make a second-best low hand, or to be quartered and give you action with many others trapped in the middle.
I'm looking for answers to a few questions pertaining to a recent O-8 hand. This was a mid-week 6-12 game with a half kill. The stakes go to 10-20 when the kill is on. 3rd raise is a cap in this casino.
I'm in the Small blind and I've posted the $10 kill.
BB is an aggressive player who raises pre-flop fairly often. He'll raise pre-flop with any AAxx, any A2xx, and any high 4-straight. His worst hand shown with a pre-flop raise was 9JQK.
UTG is young Hold-em player who has played fairly little Omaha. He has recently scooped a couple nice pots and has $400 in profit in front of him.
5th seat is passive, moderately selective, only raises with the current nuts.
7th seat is an expert whom I've seen play O-8, HE, and stud. He knows all the games well, bets with strong hands, raises with strong draws and proper odds, and at times will bluff the end if heads-up and a chance to steal or push off a weak high hand.
At any rate, I have A337 with A3 hearts in SB.
Pre-flop, 6 people total have limped, I check, and BB raises. Everyone calls. 7 way action. Pot=$140.
The flop comes 227 rainbow.
I check. BB bets. UTG calls, 5-seat calls, 7-seat raises. I call, BB calls, UTG and 5-seat calls. The pot is now $240.
The turn card is a Q. The board is now 227Q.
Both blinds check the turn. UTG bets $20. 5-seat calls. 7 seat raises. I reluctantly cold call $40 with my nut low draw. I rationalize that my holding of A33 reduces the chance of another A3 being out. BB folds. UTG re-raises. 5-seat calls. 7-seat caps. I call. UTG and 5 seat call. The pot is now $560.
The river comes 4. Final board is 227Q4.
I bet. UTG raises. 5-seat calls. 7-seat re-raises. I cap. Total of 4 callers after river. Total pot $880.
I show nut low. UTG shows queens full. 5-seat folds. As expected, 7-seat shows quad 2's.
I took down $440, of which $240 was profit.
My questions are:
1). Should I have folded to two bets on the flop?
2). Should I have folded to two bets on the turn? Once I called the two bets on the turn, I knew that I'd have to call any further bets to see the river, and I had a very good idea that UTG had Queens full and 7-seat had quads, so the pot could easily be capped on the turn.
3). Part of my rationale for withstanding the aggression on the turn was that I had two 3's. I knew that if I filled on the river, I would still lose. But, I felt that if I hit the low draw, I would be less likely to be quartered. Is there a way to mathematically reduce the likelihood from average that one of my opponents holds another A3? In other words, (disregarding the betting sequence on this hand), what percentage of the time in a 10 handed game will at least one other pre-flop player have A3 when I hold A33? How does this compare to the likelihood of someone else holding an A3 when I only have one A and one 3?
Thanks in advance for responses.
I don't know the answers to numbers one and two. I think you played fine. I would have played it just as you did.
3. What percentage of the time in a 10 handed game will at least one other pre-flop player have A3 when I hold A33X?
Approximately 24 per cent of the time.
What percentage of the time in a 10 handed game will at least one other pre-flop player have A3 when I hold A3XX?
Approximately 34 per cent of the time.
There is a more precise way to do the problem you posed than the way I did it. The results above are only approximate. But that may do well enough to give you an idea.
Buzz
(1) You have 16 outs for your low. Your half of the pot is more than big enough to justify a call.
(2) See (1).
(3) Not often enough to worry about it.
I have recently been playing more 5-10-20 stud, with a one dollar ante and two dollar bring in. I was wondering if anyone had any general principles on how the river should be played in this game. For instance, I have been checking two pair on the river to drawing hands and even occasionally what I perceive to be a lower two pair. In the fifty hours, I have spent at the table, I have yet to see a bluff raise on the river, but everyone and there brother is willing to bluff the original twenty. Based on this logic, it would seem that the most profitable way to play the river (in principle) would be to bet all two pairs that I felt were superior to my opponents going in and fold to any raises if I do not improve on the river. Also, this prevents people from putting me in the predicament of calling twenty on the river with two pair. I still feel that I should check to all flush and straight draws unless I fill up with two pair since if they miss they will not call the twenty anyway. Is this logic correct? Also, what if someone is capable of bluff-raising the river, then I am offering two-one on unimproved rivers.
I think your logic is sound. The triple increase in betting does make it more difficult to call on the river, and does make bluffing more effective. Certainly calling with two pair is the right thing to do most of the time even if the pot odds are less advantages. The cost of being reraised, however, is doubled.
A semi-bluff against an opponent capable of folding a strong hand is possible if you have been representing trips all along, but for someone to call such a hand to the river probably indicates that they have at last a good drawing hand or better. On the other hand, a bet on the end if you think you have the best hand, depending on the pot odds, can be profitable. This game certainly encourages betting on the end either as a bluff or for value.
How you read the hand is probably the most important consideration. Automatically calling is more difficult; but, as with all other stud games, calling with a high two pair on the end is usually correct. Betting it,however, can be costly as it is unlikely someone would call if they can't beat your two pair but are likely to raise if they can.
Simple basics, but it's a start.
I sat in a 5 and 10 7 stud game last night and was informed that the rest of the players had agreed to make it a 5-10-15, with 15 on 6th and 7th streets.
I played for a few hours, broke even, saw some terrible play by some, and good play by a couple of others
My question is, what changes do you make when the betting changes like this?
My thinking was to go in with a few slightly worse starting hands than usual due to the higher back end profit if they came through, and to be a bit more inclined to just call early on to get to 6th street.
Any advice is welcome.
Mason,
First I'd like to compliment you on the work you've done with the 7CSFAP 21 century edition it has helped me a great deal in a 15-30 stud game that I play in reguarly. My question is about about overcalling. I was playing in a hand recently that was 3 handed after 3rd street. The first player raised coming in with the Qh and was called by a 9 I called out of the bring in with Ad Qd 3d. On fourt street I made open 3's and bet 30. QhJh called the 30 and 97 offsuit raised it to 60. I called because I felt the player behind me would call also. Then on fifth the QhJh caught the 3 of clubs and the 97 caught an 8. I caught a Queen and checked. The first player checked and the second player checked. This was very confusing to me. On sixth street the QhJh3c caught a heart and bet after I checked. 9786 called. I called. The river brought no inprovement and I was prepared to check and see what happens. The three hearts bet and were instantly called by 9768. I pondered and folded. Thinking well the Q's are dead and the 3's are dead so QhJh3c6h must have a flush or be bluffing but since what I belive to be a middle straight called looking at my paird board how can I then over call with Q's up. The initial better had a pair of 7's and the caller had 8's my heart sank. I normally don't play this weak but the second player was new to me and I wasn't sure what he was capable of. I was wondering if you had any advice on this had or overcalling in general.
On a differnt note I was playing in the game with Ray Michael B. but everybody calls him 'Doc' he said he was a fried of yours. If this is true what a small world the poker comunity is.
Good Luck and Nice play in the 30-60 game 5's
Paul:
You certainly have a confusing hand. But one thing stands out, there was no bet on fifth street. In stud this can mean many things, but it increases the possiblity of weakness and it can encourage someone to go ahead and bluff on either sixt street, the river, or both. (You can be fairly sure that the player with the 987 up doesn not have a staight on fifth street).
Because of that, I suspect that you should have called on the river even though it does seem given their boards that you are most likely beat. Of course, this is easy to say after the fact. I don't know if I would have made that call in the heat of battle.
Ray Michael B. is a friend of mine. He's also a doctor and will play poker at virtually any limit (including some very big games with the toughest players in the world.) He is also the author of our book PokerFarce and PokerTruth.
I would have bet once I paired Queens and threes. If I then got re-raised, I would have thought about folding -- always a tough thing to do. If I got called, I would have worried that the someone had already drawn a straight or had at least of good straight draw. On sixth street, we know the 9786 had a good straight draw, but if I didn't get raised on fifth street, I would bet again. If I got re-raised, I would have to do some calculating knowing that I'm probably going to have to call a bet on the river against a possible straight. Now, having increased the pot, I'm obligated to call on the river, but I wouldn't bet into a four straight on the river
What betting does for you is that it may force at least one of the drawing hands to fold, which gets you heads up thereby increasing your odds. The draw back is that someone is slow playing something, like trips or a pair of aces -- or a straight. If they already had it, however, I would expect a re-raise. Another draw back is the river, which is a killer.
I'm a little surprised that Mason Malmuth didn't mention all of the above. Having read 7CSAP, I would think that the above is the suggested play, even if queens up is significantly weaker than Aces up or Kings up. I would like to ask why he did mention the above, because I want to know if my approach is wrong.
Rockhard
A few points.
You definitely should have bet on 5th street. The river call is tricky since you have to have a good read on the players. Given the way the hand was played, you are getting around 11-1 on your money. Again, it depends. Most players won't try to bluff an open pair and a 4 straight on the board so folding is not such a bad play. You are in a tough spot. The key is really the lead better coupled with 4 straight making hand on the river. Probably a call but difficult, I don't think it's major either way. Just that you are so amazed that you were not beat indicates you thought you were more than 11-1 dog so it indicates you are thinking properly given your analysis of the hand. Betting 5th and 6th doesn't always stop bluffers. I had a hand in a very high game where I raised with hidden aces on 6th vs. an open pair so I would not have to call a possible river bluff and the opponent tried to bluff me anyway. Being he was a maniac and I am stubborn, I called anyway. The point is that even agressive betting doesn't always deter bluffs (but often does).
Sorry, it's late and I am rambling.
The way I understand the hand is that on fourth street after you paired your door card you were called and raised and the raiser only hand 97 showing. You have to think about what he would raise with. A set is now a distinct possibility since you are represnting a set of treys, and this should slow you down on fifth street.
The problem with stud is that if you bet and are raised again on fifth street you may still want to continue. These folds are generally more correct at hold 'em. In addition, by betting on fifth street, what will you accomplish? It doesn't look like anyone will fold even if your hand is best.
Good analysis. Another interesting thought about this hand that has not been mentioned is folding on 4th street after being raised and called. The possibility of a set in the 9-7 hand makes our hand in question even less valuable. That may have been the time to fold.
.
I don't like a reraise on 4th because that just commits the 9-7 to the river (the more you raise, the larger the pot, the more people will call). You might knock out the QJ but that is far from certain. If QJ stays in, you are really in trouble and if not, you are making the pot more expensive for yourself. Either way, you are committing more money to a pot with an inferior hand. I guess I might be willing to accept a raise if I KNEW 100% that QJ would fold. Still, I hate the hand because it's not even a rational raise for 9-7 with nines up so I am really afraid of trips and I hate playing hands where the other player has a chance of trips, and trips higher than my pair.
Mason's comments are echoed here by me. The interesting play is the call with the pair of eights. I would probably bluff raise with his hand rather than call. Your laydown on the river reflects what I believe may be a basic flaw in your game. I may be wrong but it appears that you are more concerned with good laydows and saving a bet than winning. I haven't read 7SFAP 21 (MAson is to cheap to send me a copy) but I can tell you that edition one tells you to call the river if the pot is beat and your opponents board does not beat you. So much for new editions.
Vince
Thanks for everyones responce. I don't think its fair to say that I am more willing to save bets than win. I am totally willing to spend extra bets during a given hand and even without the best had in an atempt to knock other players out thus increasing my chances greatly. And I would make this call heads up every time. Just at the time it looked like a really tough call given that the 9786 hand called. Its hard to find knowledgable stud players and I enjoy these discussions I'll have more hands to talk about after this weekend.
The best of luck,
Paul
Two questions:
1) What is meant by a "wrap"?
2) Is there anyplace online I can find an outs sheet for Omaha (high only)?
Thanks!!
New Kid
A "wrap" is short for "wraparound straight draw," which is a straight draw in which where there are multiple cards that can make your hand. For example, on a board of Q96, if you hold JT87, any K, J, T, 8, 7, or 5 will give you a straight.
I don't know where to find an outs sheet for Omaha High.
-Sean
after making a living for a couple of years playing 7card hilo 8 or better $1 to $10 anytime here in n.c. they changed the format of the games in this area to all cards down and a forced bet of $2-4-6-8-10. and since the change i am not making any money. just cant seem to beat the game played this way. im even for the past 7 months and my br has gone away!!! anyone ever played the game this way? any help would be greatly appreciated.
I was recently playing in a 5-10 game with a whole table of passive players. On one hand I called the bring in of $2 with 88/9 on third street. A player with a Q up merely called. It later turned out that he had a pair of queens. He also was the high card on board.
I got an 8 on fourth street,and the queen got a 6. This is exactly why it is worthwhile to limp with weak players-sometimes you will catch the perfect card on fourth street and they will keep coming. Play proceedeed,and on sixth street I got the Fourth 8! The queen paired the queen on board, and obviously had three queens, with two on board.
After the river it turned out that not only did the queen have q's full of 6's, another limper had an Ace high flush. Needless to say I won a big pot,as there were still five callers on fifth street, even after I raised throughout.
Afterwards, I learned a valuable lesson, one that my opponents learned the hard way--Do NOT let people limp in with worse hands. If the Q had raised I would have folded, and the Ace high straight also should have raised on third. By letting me in they lost a huge pot to a big longshot.
The advice in 7CSFAP to frequently limp in just for the bring in worked out well here.
Pat D.
How often do you get into those types of games.
I was siting at a table at the Tropicana in AC a few weeks ago and found myself at a passive table. It was great. There were people waiting to get in on the board, but the dealer suddenly called out to one of his freinds who he saw standing around watching another game. He said: "Hey [name], you've got to get into this game." I became angry, because hey, the dealers job is not to turn his friend, who may be standing around, onto a good game. I complained. It turned out that I bested the new player on my right, but the table soon broke up, unfortunately but I guess inevitably. Still, I should have had it to myself and the random player waiting in line, not the dealers friend.
Rockhard
Pat,
Sit on your hands till 4th street type game.
paul
I go on tilt when I'm winning, when I'm losing, and when I'm bored. Help!
Try Masturbating.
CV
xxx
theres medication out there to mellow you out
jg
Read Zen and the Art of Poker
Thanks for the advice, and the laughs. I have read Zen and the Art of Poker. It was helpful. I think my big problem may be that I really didn't have as good a handle on starting hand requirements as I thought. I'll just keep playing and learning, disgarding the less useful advice and keeping the good advice.
Rockhard
hey rockie just one last thought if you dont have a library of poker ,then you definitely will tilt forever.
jg
"For instance, it would be crazy to play a pair of 5s in seven-card stud with the two other 5s exposed." Theory of Poker, pg 37, ¶ 1 (Exposed Cards)...........LOL
I recently purchased a software program and ran a simulation. I came to the tenative conclusion that there are only three, maybe four, profitable starting hands in 7CS:
(1) A high pair, queens are better preferably,
(2) A straight flush draw,
(3) A high flush draw, and possibly
(4) An ante-steal with with a high upcard.
The remaining hands should be thrown away regularly. Aces and Kings are big favorites. This throws some question on playing fast on third street as they prove so profitable. Not only could you be giving away your edge, causing players to fold might actually minimize your profits rather than maximize them. The interesting news is that most of the time people don't start with such high pairs. Of course, if they bet them they more likely have them but could just as well be bluffing as should you when you have the highest upcard. On the other hand, when you read someone to have a high pair in the hold, you are in trouble. Hidden high pairs can be slow played often for large profits.
So despite what 7CSAP says about strategy and good players being able to play marginal hands, if you just play those three types of hands, bluffed at the right times, and got out when you're in trouble, you should turn a profit; but if you insist on playing marginal hands, you're giving away your edge.
Comments?
Rockhard
I must say, there is a lot of truth in what you say especially in lower limit games. Given that Aces will win about 33% of the time, one can see how the lower cards decrease in value. I think one must add a straight draw if there are some overcards.
I am amazed at the people who play low pairs early when ther are overcards and those who play high cards unsuited and cold call a raise with players still to speak.
You wouldn't play 789 or 678 with all cards live if you could see the fourth card cheaply? Or what about a hand like 9A9 (split pair) against two players with upcards of 6 and Q with two other queens exposed?
Probably yes depending on the players. I would see a card with small/mid pair and top kicker for a complete bet against 2 players. I would most likely see a card with a straight draw if I had a high card. Against 2 players, the small straight is not giving me the correct odds. Even implied odds may not be enough if I think the 1 of the other players may fold early and if one has a drawing hand with a high pair.
Small straight draws are in the category of small pairs without a big kicker. To paraphrase what Bob Ciaffone once wrote in regards to a hold-em hand: "Look at what you are building." Someone else once wrote that when you play a 3-card straight at the beginning, one of your biggest outs is to make pairs if the straight doesn't build. Well, I'm not looking to make small pairs, and over the long run, unless you are a great player, you'll lose more money on small straights than you'll win with it.
But the thesis stated by rockhard is too simplistic. I would first question which software program used to come to this conclusion. Hands are played for a variety of reasons, the least of which is determined by considering the outcome against computer players. For example, if I think you'll lay down any sort of hand at a particular point in the play, I'll run a stone-cold bluff where I slowplay with nothing and check-raise you out on 5th or 6th street. All of the good stud players I know use the hands they are dealt to accomplish strategic objectives, the least of which is a straightforward call-bet-raise scenario where the "best" or "good" hand prevails. Toward that end, were you only to play the hands suggested, you would be easily defeated. For further proof of this, consider Sklansky's simplistic example (In Winning Poker, I believe), where a Razz player will only play A-2-3. A player so pigeonholed on starting hand requirements will be called by better players with weaker hands simply because they know what you have, when you improve, and when you don't. Their decisions are easy. I agree that there is no win in the above strategy except possibly in a very low-limit game with no ante.
Rockhard could not possibly play only those hands in real life and turn a profit. I do not know what simulator you used, but I can say that I think your analysis is wrong.
You do not consider whether there is an unraised pot, whether you can get in cheaply, whether you pick up a draw on later streets, whether you are in a steal position and numerous other profitable situations. You must remember that the value of ANY hand depends upon many factors.
For example, the quality of the players is probably the biggest flaw in your reasoning. Would you fold 4h4s/Ah ina weak game with an unraised pot? I would hope not since you might be able to raise and knock out many players,making your hand playable.Have you considered semibluffing,or the fact that your opponent may be limping in on third street with nothing? What about playing AhKh/9s for a raise when you can get it heads up or even steal?
You would deplete your bankroll quickly in any game above $3-$6, but more importantly, in any game you would not maximize your profit against bad players by playing your guidelines.
I think he has a point. I believe that you can turn a very small profit playing almost that tight. It really depends if the game has a calling station or 2 who do not quite realize that when the tight player plays past 4th st, he has the goods.
There are a limited number of situations where you can play marginal hands, but if you make a practice of it, you will lose. I wouldn't play the AhKh/9s except if I'm last in with only the bring in left. Of course, the board and the players matter. With a weak board, you can play medium pairs and perhaps the dreaded small pair with a two flush or straight. Generally, however, if you stick with the four (including the bluff/ante-steal) hands I suggest, plus the one I left out which is trips, you maximize your odds. You can mix things up with a bluff/ante-steal on third street, but be wary of callers.
My main point is that without strong starting hand requirements, you will probabaly lose money. Sometimes a small pair with a high kicker is worth a call, even a raise if the Kicker is up; but fundementally, against random hands played by a mix of competent players, only the four or five hands I mentioned make money. The program I used was Wilson's Turbo Seven-Card Stud for Windows.
I think there is a lot to what you say. The biggest decision one makes is on 3rd street. I usually only play low pairs and sometimes mid pairs when I am on a steal and I have a high up card especially if I see duplicates on board. I pick up a lot of antes. I am succesful about 70%. I can be bluffed and will toss the cards if I am reraised by a good player and have nothing
Because of the open board aspect of stud, hands cannot be so neatly quantified as proposed. The better players will make a lot of moves from any position on 3rd street, making you lay down a lot of otherwise playable hands. You give up a lot by not contending with hands that are the favorite (or small dog) heads-up, or even as dog in multi-player pots, that a robot says aren't long-term playable. The advice in 7CSFAP is a lot more on target, but much more difficult to put into practice, simply because it deals with the variables of a live game. The beauty of poker -- particularly 7-stud -- is that the game is about situations, not cards. I like Wilson's products (I even own one). However, the conclusion proposed here would only be valid if there weren't poker players who play the game as a duel where the goal is to outwit the other guy.
It's true that 7cs is a game of situations, but those situations where you play marginal hands are few. If you play too many of them, you will lose. Also, outwitting players is not as important as having good hands, knowing your odds, and playing accordingly. The exact wrong thing to do is to make a move on a good hand. Like Ratso says, know when you're beat and don't throw good money after bad.
Rich
Ratso,
if you are winning 70% on those bluffs i suspect its because most times even though you raise as a bluff its the best hand. id try and experiment on doing it alot more often in increments. and considering playing on when raised certainly with a medium pair and high upcard if its higher than the person who raised you. maybe even if its not sometimes.
"I usually only play low pairs and sometimes mid pairs when I am on a steal and I have a high up card especially if I see duplicates on board. I pick up a lot of antes"
Mistake.
Vince
What about ten dollar ante 40-80? What about when you have two jacks and no one remaining in the pot shows a card higher than a ten?
I have to play Jacks if no one raises especially if my Jacks are conceiled and live. Would also play for a complete bet even if my Jack was open. David, is this a trick question? I think Queens are more critical in Holdem. I think live cards are more important in stud
I think David's point, though far be it from me to assume I can speak for such an expert, is that what is considered a "payable" hand depends upon the game structure, what you believe your opponents have, how well your opponents play, and other variables which can change not only from game to game, but from hand to hand. Restricting one's self to a specific list of hands as starting requirements which applies to all situations is to give up an advantage in certain situations.
I agree, certainly, that the "game mix" often dictates play. But, there are some guidelines one must follow. Rockhard's guidelines are really (I think) guidelines.
When "guidelines" are too simplistic and and have too many exceptions, they become almost worthless.
Hi, I am a new player who has read most of the recommended books. I have been play on the web. for 50 hours and am have double by stake. so very new.. what seem as important as good cards and playing skills (hopefuly I play aggressive solid) is the "OUT'S" live card's and high kicker, the more out's a hand has the more often i win. flush draw flush large pr pr straight ect's. enjoy the day ron
David,
You actually answered a post with a title that emphatically states: "There are only three playable hands in Stud"? From an anonymous named Rockhard no less! What am I missing?
Vince
I agree that there are certain situations where you can play certain hands. The simulations simply says that some hand are unprofitable if played consistantly. Don't play jacks against queens, kings, or aces, for example. Also, if you can't get heads up with jacks, you should probably check and fold. Here are some questions that come to mind:
1. Should one probably only bet kings or aces all the way to the river? One could be up agianst pocket aces or better.
2. If you are up against a four flush on fourth street, and to a lesser degree a four straight, would you only want to bet if your heads up? In other words, do two drawing hands change your odds?
3. Even with Aces or Kings, when should you stop betting when you find you are not getting heads up?
Rockhard
Hi Rockhard, I don'tknow how you are running your sims but when I run 2K2 against xQQ the queens win more pots, but the money contest is about even, so how can what you say be correct? The answer is, that it cannot be, because you assert that the queens are profitable and a small pair and kicker is not.
(The stats show that the more opponents you have the better your small pair and kicker will do, so it's wrong to raise with them, as advised by several writers, but certainly right to call, as long as your kicker is not dominated.)
I don't know about the small straights: they are pretty marginal, but should be played sometimes to give your other hands credibility. In PL Stud I think your position re small straights is very valid, and many players quite rightly won't touch them, nor small flushes either, and won't play even large straights in a raised pot.
"(The stats show that the more opponents you have the better your small pair and kicker will do, so it's wrong to raise with them"
Of course if the computer freezes during the running of the sims, then you should fold. But if you play against them real human being types I would listen to those human being type writers that say raise and try to get the hand heads up. It's the best play.
Vince
Hi Vince, how goes it. Well, we've been here before, so you know the score: the suggestion that reraising to thin the field with 7K7 when a Q bets is pretty well disproved (IMO) by the fact that the hand does better in a three way hand against another overpair when the raiser actually has queens, and also because you generally have to improve to win even when your heads-up opponent hasn't got queens, because unimproved sevens just don't hold up very often. The hand is therefore essentially a drawing hand, and normal drawing rules apply: get in cheap and bet when you improve, because you are a favourite when you do, but a dog until then. But I guess that won't influence your opinion, and I must admit you are in some authoritative company: still there's no evidence to support your side, though there is considerable unanimity of opinion. Hey it's your money, so what the heck. I never play limit seven anyway so it costs me nothing either way. I certainly wouldn't normally reraise with 7K7 in HP or PL stud, and I hope you wouldn't either.
David Z.
Often one is confronted withthis type of decision:
Game is 10-20 7CS, 8 handed
You bring in with a (J,9)4. rainbow
4 callers, no raisers, no Aces/Kings.
Q1: 4th st, you pair your 4 - What do you do next? You are hig on board
Q2: What if you do not pair, but get an Ace? You are high on board.
Q3: How far can you push the hand without improvemnt if 1 or 2 people continue to limp along?
Q4: Suppose you bet $20 with the 4's or $10 with the Ace on 4th st. and you are now left heads-up against someone who just limped in and does not show a big pair. You figure him for a mid pair.
On 5th st. you have a choice to bet or check. Checking will show a weakness, but then again-you are.
When is a check the correct move?
Suppose you push the hand possibly representing Aces or trip 4's or 2 pair when in faty you have garbage. There is almost just enough money in the pot for him to call a $20 bet even if he is on a draw. You bet and he calls. You both catch nothing apparent and you are still high? I would tend to check on 6th street? In general, is this correct?
This happens a lot.
"Q1: 4th st, you pair your 4 - What do you do next? You are hig on board"
Check and fold 80-85% of the time
"Q2: What if you do not pair, but get an Ace? You are high on board."
Check and fold 95% of the time
"Q3: How far can you push the hand without improvemnt if 1 or 2 people continue to limp along?"
I'll use my judgement
"Q4: Suppose you bet $20 with the 4's or $10 with the Ace on 4th st. and you are now left heads-up against someone who just limped in and does not show a big pair. You figure him for a mid pair.
On 5th st. you have a choice to bet or check. Checking will show a weakness, but then again-you are."
Bet 80%-85%
"Suppose you push the hand possibly representing Aces or trip 4's or 2 pair when in faty you have garbage. There is almost just enough money in the pot for him to call a $20 bet even if he is on a draw. You bet and he calls. You both catch nothing apparent and you are still high? I would tend to check on 6th street? In general, is this correct?"
I think so. If he called you thus far he must have something. If you read him for a draw and you think he thinks you really do have something it's a crime not to bet(I think).
I think Berya's pretty much right. Pairing your door card as the bring in does not make for a very convincing bluff. I would check and fold most of the time, even with the ace on fifth street. It's just not a good bluffing hand. I would save it for when I really do have something even as the bring in. Then you can add some deception to your game. If you raise on fifth and he calls, I would most often check for as long as he allows me to play until I get that second pair. That way on the end the pot isn't big enough to require a call into that dangerous drawing hand.
Rockhard
with 4 callers theres alot of dead money in there. you need to know about how often the players that are in with you tend to fold in these situations. do they fold big pairs or do they go on if they can beat the board. bet often enough to show a profit from them folding too much. if they call too much then check and fold or call depending on what you think they may have. in bigger games the fear of trips is enough to make most hands end right there or on 5th steet. if you bet more than once you will probably see the river with the 2 fours as you may be getting odds.
I have given some thought to this issue - I have decided that it is NEVER correct to raise b4 the flop in omaha against a full table when you can expect at least 5 or 6 players in the hand.
The reason is that 90+% of the time you are drawing. If you have Axs and you flop a 4 flush, and you also have an open ender to a nut straight, you have a great draw, but you are still drawing. Also, if you flop a set of aces, you are STILL drawing to a full house, technically. (It is uncommon for trips to be a nut hand.)
Since all hands are draw hands, you want to get in cheaply early and then make money later.
Furthermore, if your hand is really superior, why would you want to take a chance and thin the field? Since you often need to have the nuts to win the hand it makes no difference how many others are in the pot. You most definitely wouldnt want any K high flushes or non nut straights to fold.
Is my reasoning sound? I will categorically refuse to play ANY omaha hand if i know it will be capped before the flop.
-SmoothB-
nmsg
Assuming that u are talking about Omaha High (although this applies to High Low 2) i feel that your thinking is seriously flawed. I play a great deal of High Omaha and raising before the flop especially in late postion against many limpers is a essential part of play. In my expierence in Omaha many players often limp in with inadequate values and raising in these situations seriously hurts their implied odds. In late postion i usually raise with any above average hand. eg QJ108, A988, 101098 ect. Your view that u will not play any Omaha hand if u know it is going to be capped b4 the flop is equally ridiculous. I can't imagine myself folding any first rate starting hand even with this prior knowledge as the concept of domination does not apply to Omaha (perhaps in High low like folding A2 junk against tight reraiser ect)If it was pot limit Omaha then your view would be more logical as i think early postion aggresion can be a mistake if money is deep (although i am not expert at the game). However even in pot limit Omaha it seems to me that late postion pre flop aggresion is a important part of correct play.
You're not getting it. Premium Omaha hands can flop LOTS of different draws, or huge multiple draws. As a result, they win a high percentage of pots. Since premium hands commonly make draws to the nuts, you want lots of callers. And you want to pot-stick them so that your Ace-high flush gets called down by the King, Queen, and even weaker flushes, and players with split pairs and bottom two pairs and small sets cannot release their hands when you flop top set.
In Omaha, most of my raising comes in late position after there have been many callers. In Holdem, most raising comes when you are first in.
Dan wrote: In Omaha, most of my raising comes in late position after there have been many callers. In Holdem, most raising comes when you are first in.
Excellent point. In the kind of game that SmoothB was talking about, raising early for the purpose of knocking players out is useless. Raising early to increase the mistakes made by players calling too loosely is not such a huge advantage because of position. Raising late with premium hands is the only time I raise in O/8 in these kinds of games. Loose, fairly passive b4 the flop 0/8 games are usually pretty easy to beat. See the flop cheap, draw to the nuts only. Scoop scoop scoop.
I'll try that strategy when I play O/8 next. I assume that you would reraise with a premium hand in early position, though.
Eric
With the premium hands and many callers you should raise in late position to get more money in.
With AA23 double suited and the like, you WANT to be in big hands with many players. Of course you are drawing. That's why they deal more cards 8-) .
You don't like variance in your game (nor do I) but it should not be allowed to affect your sound reasoning
Good Luck
i suspect with that strategy you would be a losing player for sure. its too hard to make enough money on later rounds giving up so much positive expectation early on. try reading david's getting the best of it for a better understanding of expectation.
I got Mason's Book on Draw, but want a book with a little more basics. Caro's book is out of Print. I got the Supersystem, but want more info.
Does anyone have suggestions? I just introduced Lowball Draw to my Home game and everyone is enjoying it more than Razz.
Thanks, CV
Chris,
I posted a similar question a couple of weeks ago. I find Lowball to be an interesting game, both A-5 and Kansas City. I couldn't find a book, but I am looking. Mason told me that Caro's book is out of print -- I even e-mailed Caro at Planet Poker but he hasn't gotten back to me. Mason said Super/System had a good section on lowball, but I haven't found that either.
I haven't found Mason's "Winning Concepts" to be very helpful in teaching fundamentals.
I'll keep you informed if I find something, if you could do the same.
Jon I.
I know that Caro's book is out of print and that he doesn't even have prints himself.
The Super system seems to have some good info in it. Anyway, the guys I play with call a raised pot and Draw three!
I just hate thinking that I'm going to reinvent the wheel trying to learn this game.
Later, CV
Caro's MCU Library at PlanetPoker.com has some basic statistical tables relating to both kinds of lowball. I found them pretty helpful.
If you have Mason's book and you have Super/System then I don't see what the problem is.As far as Mike Caro's out of print material goes, you must be referring to his Draw and Lowball Report which is very good but is not a book (consists of only a few pages ).
If you want Something more basic then Mason's book,you might want to get the book CARO ON GAMBLING.It has a crash course in lowball.It also cost only $6.95. If you have trouble finding it ,GBC has it in their catalog.This website has a link to their site.
If you want a little more then what is in Super/System ,then you may want to get Mike Caro's GUIDE TO SUPER/SYSTEM . It came out in 1997 and sells for $19.95.Anyone who has S/S would be wise to get it.
Hope that helps
Howard
It's been years since I played, but I liked Norman Zadeh's Winning Poker Systems. It has about fifty pages on lowball. It used to be available on BN.COM for a couple of dollars...
30-60 stud last night, full game.
I forget the cards that were folded on 3rd street, so I'll go with what I remember.
3rd street:
8 seat brings it in for $10 seat 1 (fairly loose player) raises to $30 with (xx) Ac
seats 2 and 3 fold
I reraise with (AhKh)Ad
seat 5 (very loose, very aggressive player) calls with (xx)3d
seat 6 folds
seat 7 (decent player, but chases too much at times) calls with (xx)5s
seat 8 folds
4th street:
I bet with (AhKh)AdQh
seat 5 raises with (xx)3dQd
seat 7 calls with (xx)5s3c
seat 1 calls with (xx)AcJs
I reraise, seat 5 caps it, all call.
5th street:
seat 7 checks with (xx)5s3c3s
seat 1 checks with (xx)AcJs7h
I bet with (AhKh)AdQhJc
seat 5 calls with (xx)3dQd2s
seat 7 and seat 1 call
6th street:
seat 1 bets with (xx)AcJs7hAs
I raise with (AhKh)AdQhJc5h
seat 5 calls with (xx)3dQd2s7d
seat 7 calls with (xx)5s3c3s2c
seat 1 calls
Q1: Raise or just call here? I thought the reasons for raising outweighed the reasons for calling here, but I'd like to hear other's opinions.
Q2: Assume seat 1 checks on the river. Depending on what card you catch, what do you do?
I would say that flat calling would be correct here. Your probably against at least two players with two pair, seat 5 and seat 1, one with open aces. There can be only two reasons to raise here. To drive out opponents or for value because you feel that you have the best hand. I think it highly unlikely that you have the best hand, and open aces aren't going to drop out.
If you catch a heart on the river, obviously you bet or raise. If you catch a ten for broadway, treat it the same way. If you catch a King or a Queen, I would bet if checked to or raise if bet into. If you catch a Jack, it's debatable, but I would probably raise. It's unlikely that the Aces second pair is higher than a Jack because there are Queens and Kings out in your hand and others. I put him on a small to medium pair in the hole. If you catch a five, just call or check. The problem seat is five. He may already have a flush and is slow playing or he may have queens up. Either hand you can beat, but you have to catch.
Any way you slice it, your drawing to the best hand, but don't have it yet.
You've got gangs of outs, and the pot is enormous. Depending on what your opponents have and how they play, raising may allow you to knock out a better aces up with a bet on the river (if you pair j or 5) and it also gets more money into the pot in a situation where you have the best of it (with all the hearts, tens, and two pair cards that you can catch, even though you are drawing, you have the best of it for $120 to go into the pot.)
I like the raise. Usually when I do something like this, I get screwed, but I still like the raise. Hell, I like getting screwed...
First thing to recognize is that you're not getting heads-up. You're only driving the pot up making it even less likely to get heads-up. You really need to get heads up. If you can't you should fold.
Second, everyone knows you're representing Aces. Some may question whether you actually have them, but they all know what you are representing. What are they representing? They are either chasing or they have you beat. You're up against three others. Odds are one already has you beat or may have a very good draw. You should have just called or folded once you saw that everyone was willing to call your aces.
Unless you have a really good read on all three players, you have to ask yourself why they are calling your aces.
Once you have the flush draw on sixth street, you are now obligated to call. The pot odds are just too big.
I would like to know what happen. In may opinion, this was one of those situations where you have to fold the aces, especially once the last ace appeared on the board. Somebody's got a flush or trips, even a full house. Eventhough you've driven the pot up so high, your odds of winning are low since everyone is telling you you don't have the best hand, and you will need to the best hand 90% of time to win this hand.
Still, I hope you won though I don't think you should have been in unless you had a real good read.
Rockhard
Have you misread the original post? At what point would you even consider folding aces in this pot? And then with a straight draw on 5th? And a flush draw on 6th?
I am very confused by your post.
Me too!
Plus, George is not representing Aces, he is representing a made straight.
He has aces, and is trying to misrepresent.
representing a made straight? but he raised on 3rd. I think everyone knew he had pair of aces.
I've been known to raise on 3rd street with AKT, or Ah4h7h, and even sometimes reraise with these cards on 3rd. Raising on 6th means he can beat Aces up--with something, the most likely something being the straight that he represented with the bet on 5th.
Unless a raise will knock someone out, and it seems fairly clear that it will not, this situation seems like a call is correct. The raise may allow the other players to put you on a draw and not aces, but they may put you on this hand anyway. Take the odds and call.
Clearly you would bet a flush or straight and pay off if you are beat on the river. If you catch two pair check and call if you are not raised and you pair your high cards. It appears that seat 5 may have a flush, so if you catch the flush and you think he will bet whether or not he made the flush, you can go for a checkraise. If he made the flush you are in good shape. If I made two pair with the five I would check and perhaps fold.
But why wouldn't the 5 seat 3-bet on 6th street with a made flush? She had to know that I couldn't have her beat at that point...
I don't care what you are known for, and the hand wasn't played by you anyway. Anytime to raise on third street with an Ace, you are representing Aces. You can't be saying you are representing anything else but Aces, I don't care if you played trash regularly on third street. That just means people will be less likely to believe you have what you are representing.
Of course, once you end up with a four flush or straight, you are almost obligated to call because of the pot odds. Remember, however, that you are calling, because you sucked yourself into the draw, not because you wanted to be there in the first place.
Remember the title of the post: raising with the 4th best hand. I take this to mean that he lost. Now the burden in on you to show that he did the right thing and lost in spite of it.
I only know this situation so well because I've screwed my self with it often. It's much easier to tell someone what they should have done than to do the correct thing when you're in the hand.
The biggest clue is the calls, followed by the raises. If you have aces and there are three or more player's in the game after fifth street, consider checking and folding. They are unlikely to fold a four card draw and will probably bet if they already have it, no matter how loose the players. The worst that can happen is that you loose to a bluff.
People like to chase. Actually, people love to chase. So why fold the best hand? What hand are you hoping for in this situation? Aces are hard enough to come by, there is no way I'm check-folding on 5th street with them unless I have a damn good read on a player.
There are plenty of times when an Ace upcard raises and I have an ace upcard that I'll reraise without having aces. Stud players in general horribly overplay an ace upcard on 3rd street. Often times I feel more comfortable when an ace raises than any other card.
I caught a jack on the river and bet it when checked to, seats 5 and 7 folded, seat 1 called, and my aces and jacks won the pot.
Did seat one have two pair?
I assume so, although he didn't show.
Congratulations. I think you played well although riskily.
Nice pot!
does anybody know what casinos offer stud 7/8 hilo split and play a lot of it? im on the east coast but thinking about doing some traveling.
They get a 20-40 half omaha, half hi/low stud at Casino arizona going most days of the week now. I know there are plenty of 8 or better games in LA as well.
Could someone tell me the best places to play O8 in Tunica? I'm planning on going down there soon and would liek to know what places spread it and how good/full the games are. I play any O8 up to 20-40.
Thanks, Patrick
i havent been to tunica in several months but the best games including omaha/8 were at the horseshoe. thats your best action in tunica and has been the last couple of years. im probably going to have to play more omaha/8 myself. it seems all the 7-stud/8 games are on the west coast and im in n.c.
Gold Strike usually has a 4-8 with a half kill I believe. Can be tough to get into.
Horseshoe spreads a 10-20 with a half kill fairly regularly. Have seen several but have also seen it during the week with no omaha at all.
In studying 7CSFAP (21st Century Ed.), I have come across an apparent inconsistency.
First, in the chapter "Playing Big Pairs," on p. 31 the authors state:
If you have a big pair, but two or more unduplicated upcards higher than your pair are behind you, you probably should fold if your kicker is poor and you don't have a two-flush.
OK, pretty straightforward. However, in the chapter entitled "Playing Small and Medium Pairs," on p. 43 the authors give an example in which the reader is dealt (9c Jd) 9d. The authors explain:
Your cards are live, no one is yet in the pot, but behind you is an ace and a king. (Notice that the Jd is a straigth flush card.) You should usually raise.
You can't fold the pair of nines with a suited jack if your cards are live even if you thought that there was a good chance that the player with the ace up does have two aces. So it is better to raise yourself. And in this case if you are reraised you have to call. If your jack was not a straight flush card then the right play is to raise, and if you get reraised, usually fold. (emphasis mine)
So, in the case where there are at least two unduplicated upcards behind you left to act on Third Street, the authors recommend folding a big pair with a crappy kicker in one example, but recommend raising with a medium pair and crappy kicker in another. Their explanation follows:
When you have the two nines (no matter what your kicker), one reason to consder raising with two overcards behind you is if they both fold you might get to charge a bad player with a smaller pair.
But if this is correct in the case where you are dealt a pair of nines, how could it not be correct in the case where you are dealt a pair higher than nines?
Q
am I missing something here? I thought the emphasis was on the suited kicker. It is better to raise with a suited kicker with a probable lower pair, than to raise with a larger pair with a kicker of a different suit. the flush draw gives another out which is a significant difference. F
You missed this part:
When you have the two nines (no matter what your kicker), one reason to consder raising with two overcards behind you is if they both fold you might get to charge a bad player with a smaller pair. (emphasis mine)
So the emphasis is not on the kicker, but rather on the fact that you have a medium pair and are hoping to get heads-up with a smaller pair.
Q
It is close between raising and folding without a nice straight flush kicker. The fact that your two nines have an offsuit jack rather than an offsuit deuce as the kicker is often enough to swing it.
I called but I think I should have raised. Full Online 4/8 ring game with .50 ante and $2 bring-in, raise to 4$.
6 Seat: 3h Bring in
7 Seat: 7s Calls
8 Seat: 7c Calls
1 Seat: 8h Folds
2 Seat: Ts Folds
3 Seat: (Qd5d)Qs Calls
4 Seat: 8d Folds
5 Seat: Kc Calls
My thoughts at the time were that I should try to thin out the Field on a later street, but does my 4% chance of making a Backdoor Flush change things?
Everyone caught blanks on 4th and all checked to me. I knew if I bet almost everyone would call. I lost a lot of money in some previous hands because I kept betting in this same situation and felt I was in the Horse Race parodox. I checked
On 5th most caught blanks again, but the 8 seat caught a Tc which went well (Straight Flush) with his 3rd street card. This made me second to act. I still just had a pair of Queens though all my Queens and Kicker Cards were live. The pot odds are close to 3 to 1 on a call. Seeing an opportunity to thin the field I raise. Even if the bettor has a 4 Flush (which is live) I'm still a favorite heads up.
I did thin the field with my raise leaving the pot three handed and ended up winning with a Full house vs. a Flush.
Comments?
Thanks, CV
chris,
i cant believe you play like that. how can you not raise on 3rd with the obvious best hand and again not bet on 4th st? the rest of the hand was probably ok if you read things right.
Believe me Ray in a regular game I would raise. It's these "very good" games that I start having problems with playing Big pairs.
These players are quite happy to call a raise cold on 3rd and call all the way down to the river because they have either a small pair or a live Ace in the hole. It seems to make Big pair play tricky sometimes and thats why I played this hand so strange.
CV
you are just shell shocked. stick your money in and wait for the long run. if you run out in the meantime forget about what i said. the problem you may start running into is that the free cards may begin to hit them and then you will see what happens. at best you will win smaller pots and at worst maybe lose much bigger pots all playing the worst hand. better to play all big pots with the best hand early on and take the lumps playing against the lumps.
Ray,
I have been consistantly frustrated with this strategy taking more lumps than pots.
First, with Queens, to bet them in late position in a loose game may commit players to the pot making it only harder to get them to fold on fourth street. It seems reasonable to wait till fourth street and hope that most of the players will draw blanks rather that raise on third with more players committed to the pot; but maybe I'm wrong and that extra bet will cause some to fold, leaving less to draw blanks?
It seems to me that he got heads up, which is the best he could hope for, besides drawing a full house.
What about after fourth street even if you are heads up and it's is clear that your opponent will call you, whether he has it or not, to sixth street (where he will raise if he has it and call if he doesn't) and then all the way to the river? Furthermore, you could be facing a higher pair in the hole. It seems to me that you are not getting very good implied odds in this situation.
Please help.
you got the best hand and its a live one. you are not looking for implied odds you are looking to get money in the pot. you want someone to call you all the way down most of the time as they are not going to fold in a spot that is a major mistake for them.
My post was trying to get at the Two Flush issue. After re-reading the text I should have raised because of my live 2 Flush and the extra outs that I had.
The problem comes up when the pair of Queens has an un-related kicker and I believe all my raise will acomplish is making the pot bigger. This depends on the players in the game and how I think the hand will be played. I guess I'll just have to find the point where this play of not raising 3rd str. works the best.
CV
C.V.,
I don't agree. You should raise with queens everytime unless someone has raised the pot before you with a higher upcard. In that case, re-raising, calling, or folding can be correct depending on your position and the other upcards.
Ray,
Am I right or wrong?
Rockhard
In the paradise stud games the structure sucks. 1 unit ante, 4 unit bring-in and first raise to 8 with 8-16 limit. There is no significant jump between bring-in and first raise to fold out the mook callers. They really need to lower the bring-in to 2 or 3 units.
-Fred-
Chris, even a conservative like myself would raise here. You have to thin the field or get money in the pot if you have best hand. I would also bet on 4th street and 5th street. Checking 5th street with the best or 2nd best hand can be fatal.
But would you then fold if re-raised or check on fold on sixth street if you remain unimproved?
From memory (I am on a slow computer at home). I would probably call if I think my queens were live and if I thought Queens up stood a good chance of winning. An almost identical thing happened to be Sat night at the Trop in a 5-10 game. 3 callers to the river and I thought I had the worst hand with Aces and jacks on the river. A 9 paired his door card early and raised and a lady raised on 3rd st and called all the way with 4 high spades showing. I folded the winning hand. Lady had bare Aces, the guy had 2 pair: 9's and 10's. you can be sure that will not happen again. I will count the pot and not overestimate the competition's hand. I would only have to win once in 4 or 5 times to show a profit.
Aces up might be worth a call, unless you can reraise and get people out; but calling multiple raises is probably unwise most of the time.
cv,
You must have been on a bad run because you definitely should of raised here as Z said. The worst scenario that could happen is the K reraises and you end up heads up which isn't that bad. Even if everyone calls you have the 2 flush, which isn't worth much but in a multiway it's another edge that will help you win the pot. You may have blown the flush out if you had raised on third and bet on 4th. You allowed him into the hand even though you won in my eyes you played it wrong. Seeing straight flushes that are (85-1) on three cards is possible but I want you to think back to the last str flush you had on three cards was. I personally can't remember but I have CRS!!
paul
I am sitting in a full 5-10-20 stud game with a $1 ante and $2 bring in.
(xx)3c brings in. A steamer raises (xx)Jc 2 horrible players call with small low cards. I put them on random hands. A new player raises (xx)5d A ridiculously tight passive player calls (xx)As I put him on Aces immediately or a high three flush. (xx)Kh cold calls.
Now its to me with (Qs6d)Qc and I fold thinking I am against kings and aces and my queens would not play that well against the full field.
I think this was a huge mistake. The better play was to call. With the weak hands in the pot plus the bring in and the antes, I must see the hand at least to fifth street. A raise on third was unlikely to move anybody. I should have called to fifth street and raised there to limit the field. I was wondering how the high premium pair should play against a likely higher possible premium pair in a high ante structured game like this one. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
I want to make it clear that in the hand above, I was 95% certain that I was up against kings and/or aces. Otherwise, I would have raised in a second.
If you would actually play your hand with half a brain you might actually get feedback on how stupid you are.
First, Gary: what are you trying to say? I do not understand what you mean. And suppose Small Timer players with 3/4 of a brain; then what?
Small timer: In my humble opinion, the key here is are you sure you are up against K's or A's? If you are, then you did the correct thing by folding. You are a dog in this hand. You would cold call 2 raises and possibly a 3rd with a 1 way hand?
These games often get a lot of people in on 3rd st because the price is cheap, but with 2 or 3 raises, it is now effectively a 10-20 or 15/30 game. Assume the limpers who do not get suited or straights drop out at 4th street, you are left heads up with overcards against you. Pass and wait till the next hand unless you like giving your money away. The most important decision you make is 3rd street. Look for a reason to fold. If you cannot find one, then bet. If you just look for reasons to just call, you'll find them and then you'll be looking for the Mac machine.
Hi, I am always thinking that a call is (4 new dealt hands) so if in doubt fold. but of course I don't always follow my advice and It does cost to chase. lol ron
This comment is inappropriate and you should be banned from the forum.
I agree. I am sure that Mr. Sweet always plays his hands so well because he has a perfect read on others' hands. I wish I could play that perfectly.
With all of the callers, you should consider the implied odds if you hit your hand with trips or better. I wouldn't chase the whole way, but it may be worth it to take off a card, especially if the A is so tight that you might be able to get him out. I wouldn't read him for more than two A's, so you are probably only against 2 higher pairs.
If my math is correct you are getting 4.7-1 on your two bet call, so I'd call, and keep a close eye on what happens on fourth and fifth.
I agree with Ratso. It appears to me that you had to call a double bet where no one folded. If it were just a call for a single bet, and you are late in position, I might say go ahead and call with our marginal hand; but it's two bets to you and everyone is calling the Ace and King. Play it safe and get out.
Last week, for four days and 4 nights, there was a $40-80 split game at the Bike...Stud Hi-Lo 8, Omaha Hi-Lo 8, and Stud Hi-Lo with no qualifier. Just wondering what adjustments you'd make to play in this unusual no qualifier stud game? I'd imagine it requires drastically different strategy. Thanks in Advance,
I think the place to look is in Supersystem. Sklansky says how to play, and says if you playing against bad players it is impossible to lose (as opposed to other games).
The main adjustments is alot of high hands become absolute garbage, i think you should muck almost any big pair (except aces). The hands which are good which are ones which can scoop and now w/no qualifier a hand like KKQ is almost never going to scoop. Good hands are things like 345.
Some freinds of mine used to really dislike this game. Some used to joke (half seriosly though) when someone elsed called this game ," why don't you j