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2/4 Omaha8. People calling raises with middle or QQ pairs plus crap, weak low draws, etc. Usually only one raise, if ANY raise (even A2lowlow didn't, the moron...) in a hand.
Having been slapped around with river cards at the other O/8 table i was at, I sat down and soon received three hands in a row (SB, button, #9) with either very good lows (A2, A3 plus two high cards) or, my "favorite" for the night, AA-low-high double suited.
I raised each hand pre-flop. Two flops, dumped when non-matching 2 high/1 low hit. the AA hand, two low, nut flush draw sucked bets out of me until river (including one raise I had to eat).
The question- At low limits, my raises dont' seem to be doing much in table clearance, and am only building pots for others to suck in. It pains me to think this, but would I be better off NOT raising pre-flop and going for check raise or check-fold on flop instead?
It just seems wrong not to punish weak drawers with raises, even though the cards haven't been coming my way in this game lately....
Comments?
First, know who you are playing with - somw will only come in (with or without any preflop raising) with good nut possible hands (A23X s/ss, etc.) so you need to know who they are. Others will come in with anyting even if it is raised before the flop. Thus, position is important. My advise is to mix up your play, sometimes raising preflop with good cards, sometimes not. I usually let the hand dealt to me - and my position - guide my action. Also helps to be patient and not go on tilt just become rag-holders are running all over the game. By the way, my home game is Omaha/8, Tahoe/8 or 6-card stud/9, dealers choice with no ante and no check and raise. Believe me you can see anything happen - but the better cards generally take home the $$$ - at least it works for me.
Ace - What's "Tahoe/8"?
Buzz
Buzz Tahoe/8 is a three-card flop game. Each player get 3 down cards, there is a flop, turn and river. Player can play 1 or 2 cards from his hand for 8 or better low and for high. Can also play the board as in Holdem but it doesn't come into play very often. Much debate locally as to whether its more like split Holdem or like Omaha/8. Not many player understand it and there are no books out that I know of. Its a real mean bastard game - popular in some cardrooms around Washington State. By the way, the games I discussed in my earlier post are $1 to $4 anytime. Can easily generate pots in the $80 to $100 range when the table is full of loose, crazy players - which is pretty often. Ace
Ace - Thanks for the explanation. Sounds more like hold 'em-8 than Omaha-8.
Also sounds interesting. I'll try it out on our private group this week.
Thanks again.
Buzz
Buzz If your private group are action-up players, I'm sure they will like Tahoe. Seems to bring out the worst or best in players who haven't seen much of it before. Upon some thought, I think it's more like Crazy Pineapple which used to be popular here in the great Pacific Northwest. Good luck Ace
Ace - We tried Tahoe tonight in our private game. It went rather well and caught on. I like it.
Someone tried a variation he named "Heavenly." "Heavenly" is like Tahoe, but the low hold card is wild. The pots were bigger, but IMHO Tahoe is a better game.
In case you don't know the Tahoe region, Heavenly is a ski resort on the south side of the lake, right on the state line. Beautiful views from the top and great ski runs. You can ski the Nevada side and/or the California side. Then you can go back to town and gamble.
Unfortunately there is not much poker left in South Lake Tahoe. Just Harrah's, I think.
Anyhow, thanks for directions to the game "Tahoe."
Buzz
Buzz Glad you and your friends like Tahoe - but I wouldn't touch 'Heavenly' with a 10-foot pole. Way too crazy. Haven't been to South Shore Tahoe in several years - sorry to here the poker action to about gone. It's a great place to visit. Ace
It is called "Omaha Is Dead" and is in my book POKER ESSAYS. It pertains to limit Omaha played for high only.
Hi Mason,
I guess Draw Poker other than LoBal is also essentially dead -- except it is occasionally played in dealer choice home games.
From 1959 until 1982(or so), I played draw in Gardena, CA and the now defunct Bell Club. I did OK. But Jackpots started and I no longer enjoyed playing draw.
I was initally glad that stud and flop games were made legal in CA, but the drop "dead drop in LA County" and collection take most of the money in low limit games -- probably this is true also in most of the mid-limit games.
I sorta feel that Draw Poker"non-jackpot" in Garden, CA was not unlike a "Place Called Camelot" for draw poker players. It will never exist again. The collection were not that expensive relative to the spending habits of people in that era "1940-1982." In a way it is a sad thing -- but we have to live for what now exists.
... in a casino card room. Arizona really now has a large amount of poker being spread; at Casino Arizona on a Friday night or other times with promotions, all 50 tables are full with long waiting lists. And there are 3 other big rooms, not so full right now, in the Phoenix area, and several more around the state.
And I have never seen, not once, any draw game ... Jacks or Better, Lowball, or anything else.
It is the players who are not interested. I have heard floor people in at least 2 casinos (C.A. and Gila River) say that they will spread any game that the customers want to play, if they can get enough to fill a table.
Dead, dead, dead. Anyone have explanations?
Dick
Mike Caro says that draw is the game that gives the least chance for the weaker player. Many others say that players don't like it because it is "slow" or there are only two betting rounds, etc. I think it is a great game but I don't think it will be revived any time soon. People today don't want to HEAR about anything that they don't see in their casinos. Casino poker is seen as the be-all and end-all of the game. That is too bad. It has solidified the eight-qualifier and cards-speak as the "right way" to play high-low in many players minds. When asked "why the qualifier, why make the CARDS more important than the players?" They say "well, you HAVE to." That isn't logic, it is "the casinos do it so it must be right."
I have played quite a bit of draw and a LOT of hilo with a declare and no qualifier and I really would like to play them again but I don't have much hope. Even people who run home games think that the casinos are somehow "correct." Ironically, the casinos are only doing what the players ask for. Except that they won't do "chip-declare" in hilo as they fear lots of would-be stage magicians trying to shoot angles and hours of dispute every day. Maybe they are right about that but there are some very easy solutions that would bring back this great and once wildly popular variation. Anyway, I saw a table of FIVE-card stud once in a casino last year. Old dudes playing for big stakes (by my standards. I think it was $50-100) so maybe you will see a table of draw one day.
-- Will
I saw this book at the used book store in my neighborhood this week. Guess someone didn't agree. FWIW, I was in a mix game this weekend where every game sucked except for when we played Omaha High Only. Every pot was over $1000 whereas none of the other games were generating pots > $400.
JG
I was a winner. I was great. I bought the books. I knew the the probabilities and numbers. I kept detailed records. I was killing 'em for 1000's of hours of play. But then...
I've been busted. They took everything I'd won in my life playing poker and then some. It hurts so bad. I truly belive I play tight and good and that I was unlucky. It hurts so bad, I ache to the core. Why? Why did this happen to me? Why did I go hours without winning a hand? Why did I always lose rolled up in stud or with aces in holdem. Why would I never make my good low flush and straight draws in O/8 or Stud/8. Why do I have to sit there and watch every loser and gambler around me catch lucky when all I ask for is to get average cards. I don't want to be lucky. I don't want to hit gutshots and runner runner flush draws. I just want to win when I have the edge. But I didn't, and now I'm busted. Go on tell me what you really think. Tell me how I'm just like every other gambler loose player and that I'm just crying. Maybe one day this will happen to you and no matter where you go or what you do, no matter how tight you play you will just lose and lose and lose over and over again till its all gone. But don't worry when you tell your poker friends "I got really really unlucky", they'll nod solemly and pat you on the back while they quietly think you're just like all the other losers out there.
You say in your post "no matter how tight you play you will just lose and lose" here is were your trouble may lie. Just playing tight is losing or brake even play at best. In those books you've read I think if you look for the writers definition of winning play they will recommend tight and aggressive play.To often we let past losses affect our future raises don't fall into this trap. Sometimes when I raise it brakes my heart put I force myself to raise because over a long period of time it will turn a profit (the indvidual hand won or lost means nothing). Think of the raise as a tool for a poker player, like the monkey wrench is to the plumber, a plumber who refuses to use a monkey wrench will have a difficult time at best making a living so it is for the poker player who rarely raises! Another very important part of winning poker play is table selection in your post I noticed you play stud, holdem, 0\8 and stud\8 you may want to go to basics and play your best game and stick to that until you biuld a bank roll. Don't be tempted to sit in on those tight games so you'll have a lower variance every player there is a loser the only profit there is in the house rake the same goes for low limit tables if your at a $1-$5 table and there are 8 players who bring $80 each to the table with the house taking an average of $80 in rake an hour after just 8hrs. of play everyone at the table is broke. When I first stared playing casino poker at low stakes people at the talbes would proclaim their pros statis through the years I've found they were either lying or had not played long enough to realize thier error. Low stake games with a rake are stickly recreational games and should be treated as such. $1-$5 game and lower will no rakes are beatable games! Put if you play raked games stick to higher limit with a couple of wild players willing to splash money around and a coulpe of calling station at the table and a couple of rocks and in no time you'll recover!
15-30 game with 7 players
2 questions
1) the bring in brings it in, next player with the King of spades (Ks) up raises, next two players fold.
Im sittin with (5cAc)6s, all my cards are live, two players behind me and the bring-in. Now I know that this is a marginal hand but my question is this: is it better to raise to get head up, or should I call and let the last two players come in?
I raise mainly because of my overcard, and because I thought the raiser was playing a little loose. last two fold.
Next question 2) forth street: opponent has xxKs3h; i have (5cAc)6s6c
My question is this: Its my lead,should I bet the minimum or the maximum?
According to SCSFAP, on p.82 it says "you should bet the minimum, because if your opponent has the high pair that he was representing, he will call for either the min. or max., but if he doesn't have the high pair, he would be correct to fold for the min bet, so why gamble the extra money?
Anyhow, I figured that because I reraise on third street that he would misread me for a large pair in the hole or trips, and I wanted to win the pot right there because I thought I was weak.
I ended up betting the max, results posted later.
thanks in advance,
Bishop
This is a definite fold on third street. You got lucky with the pairing of your door card. I could see, maybe raising with an Ace up as a bluff to steal the King's bet (if you were perceived as tight and he was pretty weak) but I sure don't see this as a good play.
Once you paired your door card I would have bet out, if I thought he would credit you with trips, or maybe even check raise if you thought this might work. But against a strong player I would have bet the lower tier and probably given it up if he bet to my check on fifth street.
Low Limit Omaha 8 game with average mix of players. This is a kill pot, I just sat down in the game and folded 2 hands. I am in late position with AsTsTdJh and call. Player on my left is pretty loose (LP).
Flop: 77T 4 players checked around, I check, LP bets, they drop, I call. Turn: 5 I bet, LP raises. I put him on xx55, or a low draw, (i forget if there was a flush draw). I reraise, LP reraises, Ouch! Now I suspect he has the nuts.
I call. Is this a mistake? The pot is big at this point with double kill bets. River: blank I check, LP bets. I make a crying call. Is this a mistake? Again, I thought it would be a bigger mistake to lose the pot. Well, he had xx77 and decimated my rack. This was the start of a terrible session. Maybe I was tilting after this first hand and was in denial.
Would you play it different?
Keith O
Keith -
"I am in late position with AsTsTdJh and call.
Sounds about right.
"Flop: 77T 4 players checked around, I check,"
Bad move. You should bet here (1) to drive out higher pairs, (2) to make low draws pay, and (3) to find out where you are on the hand. Your hand is not good enough to slow play.
"Turn: 5 I bet, LP raises. I put him on xx55, or a low draw, (i forget if there was a flush draw). I reraise, LP reraises, Ouch! Now I suspect he has the nuts. I call. Is this a mistake?"
No. Not a mistake to call here, IMHO. You already made your mistake by not betting the flop. (It was a whopper!)
"River: blank I check, LP bets. I make a crying call. Is this a mistake?"
No. Not a mistake to call here, IMHO. Once you don't bet the flop, you're pretty much stuck calling with this hand.
"Well, he had xx77 and decimated my rack."
Yep. Quad sevens. Now there's a hand to slow play after the flop. (Not tens full).
"Would you play it different?"
Absolutely essential for you to bet the hand after the flop. Otherwise you don't know where you are, as in this case.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
I agree with Buzz here, but I would have lost a lot more than you did. T7 is twice as likely as 77 (or 7A2 for that matter), and I would have kept pounding to make the low draws pay for wanting half my pot. This said without having been there nor knowing the players. Quads are always out there in Omaha, but don't beat yourself up for losing to them.
Certainly no problem calling pre-flop. Suited Ace, decent pair, coordinated hand. No low possibilities, but can't always have everything.
BET THE FLOP! This is not HE. This is Omaha/8. Anyone holding an overpair presents a danger, and you do not want anyone with a runner-runner low draw to hang around and pick off half the pot. You will note that the guy with quad's didn't slowplay, did he? And IMO, he was quite correct in betting out on the flop with quad's. He doesn't want any low draws hanging around, and you shouldn't, either.
If you bet the flop, the LP will possibly wait until the turn to pop you. When he does, you have to slow down if this guy is at all rational. Most O/8 players are reluctant to raise without the nuts or at the very least huge re-draw possibilities in a big field. This will be heads-up, so when you get raised on the turn, you have to seriously consider he might have quad's. You are looking at the nut full, right? What's he raising on?
Whether I would lay it down or not....??? Probably not. Check/call the river, pay him off, and get on to the next hand. One of those hands.
Pot Limit Omaha. Flopped trip jacks. Flop 8-10-j rainbow. Heads up with $60 in the pot. I bet $60 (both of us have about $400). He raised me $180. What do I do? He is a very tight and aggressive (and talkative player). I was about 70% sure he flopped a straight.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Ashley
Ashley - Is he bluffing or not? If he is not bluffing, is he semi-bluffing (with maybe a set of tens)?
Your bet either said, "I have the straight," or "I have a good hand and don't think you have the straight."
His bet said, "I have a straight, and mine is queen high."
From your description, "very tight and aggressive," he could either have the nut straight, be bluffing, or be semi-bluffing.
What does he think of you? If he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, he must first put you on a bluff, or a semi-bluff. Has he seen you bluff (or semi-bluff)?
If he has the straight, you will make your boat about two times out of five. If you are only "about 70% sure" he has the straight, then you win
30% + (2/5)(70%) = 58% of the time.
On the other hand, if you're 85% sure he has the straight, then you win
15% + 2/5(85%) = 49% of the time.
Thus if you are only 70% sure he has the straight, you should stay in the hand. However, if you were 85% sure he had the straight, you might do better by folding.
What would he do if he held a set of tens? Might he bet in this manner? If he is only 70% likely to have the straight, I think you should re-raise immediately. The appropriate re-raise would seem to be the rest of your stack.
Once you are able to quantify your certainty that he has the straight, you can arrive at a mathematical solution. However, I don't know how you decide whether the percentage is 70% or 85%.
For the one you raise. For the other you fold.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
The previous post lays out your optins pretty well, but you can't still be waiting to raise or fold, how did it turn out?
Turn was a blank, River was a blank. Trips lost to straight.
Ashley
Ashley - I wonder why you were "about 70% sure he flopped a straight."
Against a "very tight and aggressive" player, I would have been at least 95% sure he had the straight - and the nut straight at that. (I used 85% in my original post because 85% was closer to the mathematical break even point).
Sorry you lost. I was hoping you'd post that you had won, even though it seemed the odds were against you.
Buzz
First of all, sometimes they post PLO questions over on the high-stakes forum, even though its under the Holdem heading.
Secondly, playing PL, the question "Do I know what to do if raised?" should be on your mind every time you bet/raise. Since you're posting "what do I do?" I'm guessign you didn't ask yourself that question.
To answer your question I would have to know what hands you've seen him playing, your recent history together (very big factor playing PL -- does he feel he can push you around? Have you recently showed a fold you made on what would have been a winnning hand? etc. etc.) and all that crap.
Anyway, what I would have done here is check/call the flop if this is a guy who would have paid me off if the board pairs and check/folded otherwise. While this strategy might seem pretty weak-tight in a limit game, its essential to staying alive in PL. Basically, for the same amount of money that went in on the flop here, you could have seen the turn and the river with your drawing hand.
Most people are familiar with the idea of not betting a hand with no more cards to come that can only get called by a better hand (e.g. betting an unimproved AK on the river). This idea happens on every bet in PL, because on every street you face a pot sized raise from a guy.
My question to you is: what were you trying to accomplish with your bet? The only people who can call are a set of tens or a set of 8's, both fairly unlikely. Anyone else who can call has you beat. A lower straight might not raise you, but he's going to call, though not if the board pairs.
You might answer: I was trying to win the pot right there. Fine. But once you get raised, get away from it. You've played enough poker not to get dragged into thinking "well i've invested a lot in this pot already."
You can more safely make your bet here (though I'd still check-call) if the board is 2-suited, because if you get raised (on the flop) you can make a big bet on the turn if the board pairs OR if the flush card comes. Or make your bet when the board is JTx, hope for the call, then make a big bet on the turn if a scare card doesn't come.
Basically, IMO, it was just a bad bet on the flop. PL is such a game of patience; waiting for someone to tilt, waiting for well disguised nuts, waiting for the opportunity to make the big bluff against the right guy who just missed his draw. Actually I was really surprised you answered the "what happened?" question. I just figured you folded to his raise, which is really what I would have done.
Can anyone advise me on this please?
High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee. This is a frequently-asked question if ever there was one, and this book is always mentioned. There is a good reason for this. You can order it from this web site or it might be at your local Barnes and Noble.
High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee. This is a frequently-asked question if ever there was one, and this book is always mentioned. There is a good reason for this. You can order it from this web site or it might be at your local Barnes and Noble.
Does this book give a good treatment of odds calculations for draws? I've been seeing pretty good results lately playing online low-limit O-8, but I'm fairly certain I'm:
* playing too passively, especially when I've got a strong draw, but no hand made
-and-
* chasing draws that are mathematically incorrect, since I may not be correctly accounting for odds to split or odds to get quartered, etc.
TIA
not too much as i wrote hoping to make people learn the way to think about what to do rather than give them something to memorize. they can do that themselves by taking the time to learn how to do the math and then doing the work.
"not too much as i wrote hoping to make people learn the way to think about what to do rather than give them something to memorize. they can do that themselves by taking the time to learn how to do the math and then doing the work."
Ray - Yes. That was the effect on me.
When I first read your book, I was looking for some answers to odds questions. Now I'm actually grateful to you for not including those answers, as I was forced to learn how to do the calculations myself. The process was very worth while.
(I own every Omaha book I have ever seen, about a dozen in all, and no other Omaha book I have seen shows odds calculations either).
The information you have included in your book is excellent. Your book is a must read for any serious student of Omaha-8, with or without a "treatment of odds calculations for draws."
The other half of your book is a "must read" for any serious student of seven-stud-8.... very helpful.
Thank you.
Buzz
Well, I wasn't speaking in terms of memorization of strict odds - I can handle that already, but more along the lines of whether, for instance, a card that completes a flush, but would put a third low card on the board constitutes "half an out".
Bob Caffione's Omaha book discusses number of outs and wrap around hands. It is also an excellent book.
It was a five-handed pot-limit Omaha game. The blinds were $0.50-$1, small maybe, but not very small for me.
I was on the small blind with $100. The big blind (a super aggressive player) had far more chips than I did, and a loose player in the fist seat had about $50.
The loose player called, seat four and the button folded and I raised with AQJ7. The big blind and the loose player both called.
The flop came Q83. All three of us checked.
The turn brought an Ace. I bet $7. The big blind folded and the loose player raised $20, he had $24 left. I thought that he either had two pair (like my two pair or worse) or a bluff. He would never ever call-call before the flop with two aces. It didn’t take many 1/10 of a second for me to set him in.
He started to think and complained: “Oh no, he has trip aces, of course. I’ve got only two outs.” After a while he called with trip 8’s and won a nice pot.
I’ve lost a lot of money on Omaha with top two pair. I usually bet out on the flop and then somebody who hasn’t got that much more chips raises, and I set him in. I’m usually either behind or against a draw. But should I really fold to a single raise? I don’t like to get pushed around. After all, he or she may have the same hand as I do and fold it when I go in, right?
/Kuffe
Two pair is a sucker hand in Omaha it seems to me. I hope you get responses to this because I struggle with how to play two pair (or three pair!) myself.
Kuffe-- U just got out played. U might call once in a while with 2 pair. & I would never call a raise. He had to go to river no matter what happened being short stacked
Coyote
Kuffe My regular game is spread limit Ohaha/8 and, like some of the other responders, also feel that flopping 2 pair is more often than not a real disaster. Too easy to get tied on. Will rarely play flopped two pair unless they are the top two pair with little action before the turn. If I don't fill up on the turn (or again there is little or no action) I dump 'em. Will occasionaly play flopped 3 pair if they are big 'uns and low is unlikely to get there. This may not apply to your pot limit high game as I don't play that variety - not available around here. Ace
If you are referring to omaha high, top two pair(or three pair)is a drawing hand, playing it as the best hand is not profitable, I believe. The number of good high hands you are up against at any given time is just too overwhelming.
And what are you doing raising with AQJx? is pot limit so different from limit(which is what I usually play) that those cards are worth a raise?
You are right this raise is a big mistake even more so in pot limit the regular limit. Not only have u increassed the potenial for a huge pot. WIth losse players they will never fold to a small raise. They play A4C. The only thing I ever raise with in my pot limit Omaha game is if I have AAQQ or something of that two pair nature and have at least one of the A's suited with another card. Then I better hit the flop and if I don't its bet big and if raised get ready to fold. and if called then I will proberly check the turn if in later position but if I am near the front I will bet huge is the flop looks poor but if it looks like something good happened for somebopdy just check and get ready to fold. Reading people in a pot limit game is very important. You can tell what people have biased upon there reaction to the intial call on the flop. THough they will sometimes try to fool u ( which usually doesn't work bc they always over act). We play for 6-10 hrs at a time and I find that u only need to take down 4 or 5 big hands to have a winning night so patience is the key esp with loose players.
I frequently play in a pot limit game where we do play Omaha. We also have alot of lose players that kinda know the game. I hope some os those were suited cards that u raised on bc otherwise I see no reason to do that. I rarely raise preflop unless I have a great starting hand bc nobody every folds pre-flop in omaha in my game. So I feel that was mistake number one. Then with flopping the top pair and raissing pre-flop why not bet 3 or 4 dollars to see what happens. The loose player might raise right there and in that case u know you are beat and can fold. Once u get your two pair on the turn and bet u have a major decsion to make. Bc u know he might do this with just a pair of As. I have seen it with lose players and folding now only cost u like 12 or 12 depending on your preflop raise. However u had to know he didn't have a queen bc the lose player would bet that every time esp after u checked. SO he either had a monster with his raise or was bluffing. If u dicied he is bluffing why put him all in? U know he will fold to any raise and will beat you with any hand he can call with. If u really think he is bluffing come back with a small reraise ( if your game allows u to raise less then the rasie/bet before) and see what happens if he reraises you cost yourslef alot of money making the wrong evaulation but save something. Also in omaha you have to be carefull bc 2 pair is not that powerful and is commonly cracked. I proberly would have called this hand though in a couple of spots depending on what I though of the loose player at the time and how he was playing. However if any strong player I knew made that raise I would throw those cards in the muck. My reason being u have top-two which may be good at this time but its a small pot that just got out of control wait till u have a strong hand in omaha esp in pot limit where I find 4 or 5 hands describe your night. Sometimes laying down the best hand is ok and letting the loose player make his bluff is good bc he will continue to do so and u can wait till u have the nuts and then take all his chips. I find that playing tight again these loose raisers in pot limit is very profitable. GL with your game hopefully u can read throught the jumble and make some sense of this.
Thank you Coyote, Nick, Ace, Emmett and Aaron.
About the pre-flop raise: My hand was double suited. The reason I left that information out is because it was that the flop made suits irrelevant. I think it's a raising hand if nobody else shows strength. But I agree that calling most of the time even with strong hands is a good strategy, and it's the way I play as well with a small stack (like the stack I had).
In the future, I will fold my top two for a raise.
But I don't agree with the idea that it's a drawing hand. A lot of times I bet top two pair on the flop and turn, and get called by someone who is drawing and busts the draw. I have won many pots by showing down my unimproved two pair.
I would love to see more posts about plo since I think it's the game of the future, at least here in Europe (in England almost ALL games with a buy-in of £100 or more are plo, pl Stud used to be the main game I think. And I believe the highest side games in the US are plo as well. When I was in Vegas, they had a $100-$200 pot-limit Omaha game as a tournament side game every night).
I'm new to omaha (I know the basics of how to play) but I would like to improve my skills. I have played holdem for many years and I would like add omaha to my arsenal. Can anyone direct me to a good site which can teach me some GOOD strategy and theory (both hi/lo and hi).
I would also like to polish up on my 7-card stud since the TOC seems to be getting closer and closer. Does anyone know of any good site for that?
Thanks for the help guys.
You've just found what your looking for Big Willy!
Scroll down the left side bar to books and you will find what you need. For inividual hand analysis, just post a particular hand, (in detail, in the correct forum) you might want a post mortum on and I'm sure someone will chime in with their thoughts and advice.
Ray Zee's HI-LO book is the current nut's for hi-lo.
Under Directory on the left side bar, click favorite links and you will see a link for Bob "the coach" Ciaffone. He is a fine player and has a good book for hi-only Omaha.
CardPlayer has a simple Omaha/8 strategy essay.
Steve Badger has a site that has some Omaha/8 advice (PlayWinningPoker).
This site has lots of info.
I am a successful Hold'em player at Low Limits and am looking to expand. Mainly, I just want to expand my arsenal of games so I can walk into a card room and be confident that I can find a game I can beat.
The next game I'm going to learn is 7-stud, and I plan to buy 7-stud for advanced players to help. My question is, as an almost pure Hold'em player how do I adjust to 7-stud? I imagine a number of these issues are covered in 7-stud FAP, but I wonder in particular how this game is different from Hold'em. I know some of the basic things, chasing is more often correct as is paying off on the river, er, 7th street, but I wonder about which of the more advanced plays translate. Does the concept of a free card play still exist? Semi-bluffing? Raising for value on a draw? Are implied odds more important because people tend to pay off more? How more/less often should I check raise? How more/less often should I slowplay (I almost never slowplay at LL HE)? What percentage of hands should I play pre-flop, er, uh, on third street? Any other advice from people who have transitioned form HE to 7S would be much appreciated. Thanks.
From what I have seen in Low-limit seven card since this is most likely where u would start the games are usually losser then then the Holdem games. I have never played any high or medium limit so I can't comment about those games or players. I find slow playing in Low Limit 7-card worthless and you will lose bets. Mostly beacuse people tend to play there hand and not pay attention to what u have on board, Unless it is really scary like trips or 4 flush or st8 type thing. Check raissing will work in 7-card very well bc u like to trap people for two bets when they only wanted to pay for one. This is how to turn a profit in the game. Next time I go to a casino ( in 1.5 weeks) I plan to try some 5-10 7-card where ante stealing apllies. But people will be weary of u once you do it and better 7 card players will be more likely to check it down on the river it u check to them and they are not strong. I have had this happen. I find that big pairs almost never win if not improved. You what to drive people out early with these things. If u are playing 1-5 people buy in for $50 but I like a little more. In 1-5 the most important thing is patience and to get a feel for all the players. Know the players at the table is very important to beating the game know who will draw for what amount and who will bet with small pairs. I once had split jacks and I raised to 3 and some guy made in 6. He had a 10 up and I called he got some rag on 4th and I bet $5 he checked to me ( thier was a king up that had checked I knew it was a weak player who was lose and he would have raised if he had the king). I bet $5 and I took down the pot. The guy told me he had raised bc he had 3 suited cards to start. Listening to the players is very key in this game. Raissing for a free card will work if u are viewed as a strong tight players by the others and you have some scared cards up on the board. anyhow GL
I am currently making the opposite transition, going from 7S to HE, so maybe I can offer some insight.
First, Mason has an article on this site something to the effect of "Why Stud players fail at hold'em". This should give you some good starting insights as to the differences in the games, even though it's sort of aimed at players going in the opposite direction as you.
One of the main points he makes is the independence of hands. Whereas in HE if you have a good hand someone else is likely to also have one, this is not the case in stud. But the danger in stud is that someone can have a monster hand that is completely hidden from you. The third hole card makes a pretty big difference.
As far as slowplaying, I almost never slowplay a hand in LL 7S. The exceptions would be rolled-up trips, but if they're small trips, I still will fastplay them usually.
But I think the best advice I ever read is from Mike Caro, who was asked once to sum up Stud and Hold'em in three words. For Hold'em he said, "Play High Cards". For Stud he said "Play Live Cards". I've found this simple advice to be golden.
Tim, you posted relative to Mason's excellent essay: -- >>> First, Mason has an article on this site something to the effect of "Why Stud players fail at hold'em". This should give you some good starting insights as to the differences in the games, even though it's sort of aimed at players going in the opposite direction as you.
One of the main points he makes is the independence of hands. Whereas in HE if you have a good hand someone else is likely to also have one, this is not the case in stud. But the danger in stud is that someone can have a monster hand that is completely hidden from you. The third hole card makes a pretty big difference. <<<
I study Hold 'Em and Omaha theory yet I love to play Stud precisely because I cringe over sharing the community cards with everybody in the pot after the flop. I love to have my own free-standing hand, and I love to be able to look at the hands of my opponents and try to match my observations of their playing styles with the hands on the board in front of them. I watch Hold 'Em from the rail and when I see a flop that starts to show a developing straight or flush, I recoil at the thought that some player may have already the top cards to make the nut straight or flush.
I believe that Mason may have made some comments about the faster speed of Hold 'Em hands vis-a-vis Stud hands. And there have been many comments in 2+2 and rec.gambling.poker about the purported wide swings in fortune of Stud vis-a-vis Hold 'Em. I enjoy the slower speed of Stud because I can make my decisions slowly, observing all the cards showing on the board and recalling the discards I may have seen. It is said that Poker is a game of information. Stud is a game where much more information is available, and the players are more transparent in my opinion. I believe that a well-read Stud player can do better against a table of average opponents. (At the lower limits where I play, anyway.) Roy West's book on LL Stud, and the Sklansky-Malmuth-Zee tome on advanced Stud play, are valuable sources. I find the insights in the advanced book useful for the theory which may be culled to find the gems of thinking applicable to LL Stud. It may be useful to watch a game in progress from the rail. Once I was watching a LL Stud game from the rail at the Taj, and most fortunate for me, the game suddenly became short-handed and the wait list was exhausted, and I was able to sit down at the resulting open table. One cannot do that too often in A.C., because there are usually lists for all of the games, and one must go where there are openings. Theories of table selection are nice in theory, but a tad impractical in the real world. At times, I have put myself on the list for LL Stud at the Trop and then looked for the table and it was full of rocks. ha ha Went back to the desk, took my initials off the list and went home. Am not gonna sit down with a bunch of rocks just to get in some playing time. Once, I would get in _any_ game and call my losses payment for lessons. That was kewl for then, but now, can choose to play or go home. That's an advantage for a local over the plight of the out-of-town visitor who has to play because that's the whole purpose of the trip. There are some bus day-trippers from Maryland at the Trop who are great to play against because they cannot just get up and go home. They stay, married to the table, and get tired and make mistakes.
Anyway, I study a lot of Hold 'Em because there is so much good reading available. Have all of the major books on Hold 'Em. Have much theoretical knowledge toward the day when I am somewhere and I have to play Hold 'Em. However, Stud is my great love due to the information available, plus the readable players.
I have read that the bankroll fluctuations are not so extreme in Hold 'Em as in Stud, and that more money can be earned playing Hold 'Em when one has deep theoretical knowledge. Yet nevertheless, when I watch Hold 'Em from the rail, I just do not want to be there. I watch medium-limit Stud games and they are better organized, better played by knowledgeable players, but I do love those LL Stud games. That's my home, currently.
Jack Enright tahur@aol.com
The next game I'm going to learn is 7-stud, and I plan to buy 7-stud for advanced players to help. My question is, as an almost pure Hold'em player how do I adjust to 7-stud?
I think the games are very different. I played only a little bit of stud for a while before waiting to play holdem but once i moved back east I made an effort to learn how to play more stud. I think the low limit games are accompanied by much frustration as any plays you attempt to make go over most players heads and they just call call c and call. (This includes most 5/10 stud games ive played in).
I think West's book is more appropriate for the limit you want to play in than SMZ's book.
I imagine a number of these issues are covered in 7-stud FAP, but I wonder in particular how this game is different from Hold'em. I know some of the basic things, chasing is more often correct as is paying off on the river, er, 7th street, but I wonder about which of the more advanced plays translate. Does the concept of a free card play still exist? Semi-bluffing? Raising for value on a draw? Are implied odds more important because people tend to pay off more? How more/less often should I check raise? How more/less often should I slowplay (I almost never slowplay at LL HE)? What percentage of hands should I play pre-flop, er, uh, on third street? Any other advice from people who have transitioned form HE to 7S would be much appreciated. Thanks.
There is alot of Semibluffing you can do but alot depends on who you are playing. ALot of this "semibluffing" should really be value betting unless you are playing 15/30 or higher. These people even at the 10/20 level will not fold unless you have something really really scary in my experience.
Be careful with some of the advice you might find in SFAP as in alot of situations what they say really only applys to a higher limit game w/more money in the pot in antes on 3rd....
What level have you played holdem at?
Also in stud the main thing is you have alot more informatino in regards to what hand you opponents can have. If you can remember alot of cards this will help you. This concept is not present at all in holdem, and often after playing stud I feel like im playing in the dark when i move to a holdem table...
Suspicious posted, relative to Seven-Card Stud as seen from the viewpoint of an experienced Hold 'Em player:--
>>> I think the low limit games are accompanied by much frustration as any plays you attempt to make go over most players heads and they just call call c and call. (This includes most 5/10 stud games ive played in). <<<
In 1-3 Stud in Atlantic City, they just check, check, check, as everybody wants to get free cards. There can be small pots in some A.C. LL Stud games if the better players don't make them bet to see the next card. Yes indeed, "plays" go over their heads. They _do_ understand that when you bet three bucks, you have a very good hand, and they will fold to that. That's the best "play" one may make on 1-3 Stud in A.C. ha ha
>>> Are implied odds more important because people tend to pay off more? <<<
Pots may be small in 1-3 Stud because (1) everybody wants to check - check - check for free cards; (2) weak or cheap players may drop out when they have to call more than a buck a round.
>>> How more/less often should I check raise? <<<
I tried to check raise exactly once at 1-3 Stud. My opponent was by habit a bettor and caller, so I checked to start a check-raise, but he checked. duuh. I looked down at him at the other end of the table, but restrained myself from saying anything. If he had bet in response to my check, the pot would have been bigger for either one of us who would win the pot. So he _does_ win the pot, but the pot is about four bets short of what it would have been had he bet in response to my check, and then called my raise. So I lost less, he won less. {shrug}
I saw a good player check - raise exactly once at 1-3 Stud. Nobody noticed. I saw it, and thought it clever because it worked for him.
>>> How more/less often should I slowplay (I almost never slowplay at LL HE)? <<<
I have been reading in the last few days to _never_ slowplay at LL Stud. If you have trips or a hidden pair of Aces or Kings, bet three bucks each round to drive out the marginal and weak hands, and to get the opponents down to one or two or for the run to the river. I believe that Roy West is the one who says that you are favored against two opponents, one drawing to a flush and one drawing to a straight, but any more opponents, the odds favor the drawors collectively. If you slowplay trips or high hidden pairs, you will have a lot of company to the river, and one of them will make the straight or flush or full house.
>>> What percentage of hands should I play pre-flop, er, uh, on third street? <<<
Fold, fold, fold. Wait for the top hands (top pairs, trips, top cards for a straight draw, two top cards in a three-card flush draw). When the table recognizes that you only play the best hands, they will fold in the face of your strong bets with an Ace or King doorcard.
My experience is that I make good money for the first half hour, but after that, they begin to read me because my style is so transparent. So I start to break even from there on, winning tiny pots, because people are folding in the face of my bets. But that's my style.
>>> Be careful with some of the advice you might find in SFAP as in alot of situations what they say really only applys to a higher limit game w/more money in the pot in antes on 3rd.... <<<
That's true. However, we all read Sklansky's The Theory of Poker and apply the principles to whatever game we play. I myself find SMZ's Advanced Stud book valuable for making me think of the basic principles even though not applicable to LL Stud. Roy West's book is best to start.
>>> What level have you played holdem at? <<<
I watch from the rail at the Taj. ha ha I cringe at seeing the community cards.
>>> Also in stud the main thing is you have alot more information in regards to what hand you opponents can have. <<<
Exactly!!
>>> If you can remember alot of cards this will help you. <<<
Used to be a BJ card counter. Studied card counting (about two lessons) under Larry Revere, in Big V.
>>> This concept is not present at all in holdem, and often after playing stud I feel like im playing in the dark when i move to a holdem table... <<<
You got it !!! I don't play HE, just watch from the rail. I want to have my own board cards, not community cards, and I wanna see each individual's board cards and match them to that player's personality, style, habits. However, I study HE in the books. I do get useful ideas. And if I ever go back West, then I should know HE. Wonder what it is like to play Stud in the West. ha ha Are the players all Easterners?? ha ha
Fun talkin' at cha, Susp.
Jack Enright tahur@aol.com
Live cards, live draws. Those are the four key words. If you know which of your cards/draws are live and you note what your opponent has and whether HIS or her cards and draws are live, you are in good shape. If you are a good poker player, that is the main feature to add to your arsenal in switching from HE to 7CS or moving to playing BOTH which I imagine is your plan. I can make more money playing stud right now because I am only learning HE but that seems to be the promary difference. Remembering the cards that have been folded is the new skill you need but it isn't rocket science. Anyone who has ever tried to count at Blackjack or played tournament bridge is going to find it trivial and so will any intelligent person who makes an effort.
Yes, you chase a bit more but that doesn't give you a licence to chase on all occasions. Yes, you are more likely right to be tough on the river when headsup. One big bet to maybe win a pot is not as bad a deal at stud. The raise to get a free card is sometimes workable at stud but you don't see it used as often.
People here have mentioned really slow and tight 1-3 games. I don't care what limits you have played at HE, you should start out playing 1-5 or 5-10 stud. There is more action in 2-4 HE than in 1-5 stud and you won't really see much more money changing hands in 5-10. Stay out of the 1-3. My friends who play in them at Foxwoods are always coming to me complaining that the players "don't want MY money and don't want to give me THEIRS." In other words, no one bets, no one calls if someone bets and no one EVER raises. I have also heard reports of wild-n-woolly nofoldem 1-3 stud games but those seem to be rarer.
One minor detail is that low flushes are a LOT better in stud than in HE, something many players fail to notice. Of course, you still want high-cards when you start out. Part of the value of three suited cards in the door is the pairs and such they might make. However, if you start out JJ9 with J9 suited and you wind up with a Jack-high flush, be glad that you are playing stud. On the other hand, someone can have a boat with no pairs showing (a submarine?) so flushes in general are not as good. Straights have the same problem.
-- Will
This hand will raise now.
There is no I that does this,
The cards themselves act.
Bill Reich posted: --
>>> People here have mentioned really slow and tight 1-3 games. I don't care what limits you have played at HE, you should start out playing 1-5 or 5-10 stud. There is more action in 2-4 HE than in 1-5 stud... <<<
There is often a 2-4 HE game at the Trop close by the registration desk, and it is wild compared to the LL Stud games. One can wait for a table assignment standing nearby and see the wild action.
>>> My friends who play in them at Foxwoods are always coming to me complaining that the players "don't want MY money and don't want to give me THEIRS." <<<
I thought that I had this one dude figured as always calling or betting, never checking. Got heads up with him. About sixth street, I checked, expecting him to bet so I could raise his bet, because that would increase the pot for both of us to win or lose. Doggone if he didn't check. I just stared at him down at the other end of the table. Didn't say anything. I figured that he must not have much of a hand if this constant bettor now checks, so I must be favored to win the pot. Nope. He takes the pot. He should have bet. Meanwhile, I saved four bucks, one to call his bet and a three-buck raise. heh heh But he did not want my money. {shrug}
>>> In other words, no one bets, no one calls if someone bets and no one EVER raises. <<<
There are some 1-3 stud tables where everybody has a tacit agreement that everybody checks every round to the river. The pots can be really dinky. If I am in the pot, I bet three bucks each round. They hate me. You can see the hate in their eyes. Most of these people fold, and I end up with one or two opponents who will match my three-buck bets.
Jack Enright tahur@aol.com
1/2 PP 7S game (.25 ante), 7 players, no reads, comments on all parts of my play appreciated
I get 7s Jc 7d with the 7d showing. 3s brings it in for .50, Kh and 5s fold to me. I see Ks, 6d, and 4d behind me and raise it to $1 assuming I am winning here because a king already folded. The king, four, and bring-in all call. 4 players, $5.75 in pot.
Kh catches Ad, 4d gets Ts, 3s gets 8c, and I spike the Jd for two pair. All three check to me and I bet. AK raises and the other two fold. I reraise and he just calls. Fifth street brings him the 6h and I see the 7h for a house. I bet out and he calls. Sixth street he gets Qc and I get 3c. Bet out and he calls again. Seventh street I get Ac, bet out and he calls and then mucks when I show.
Was the third street raise okay? What about the fourth street three bet? Once I caught my house should I have tried to induce a bluff? Do I need to keep charging him in case HE is drawing to a (presumably better) house? Any other comments? Thanks.
3rd street raise is perfect--narrow the field esp with a dead King and 4 players.
Bet on 4th is correct. AK check raised and others folded. Your raise here is not correct. Why? You already reduced the field. You are the underdog here with both his A and K if he has 2 pair or better. Why did you raise? Get more money in the pot (did you know you would boat and he would not?) or did you think he was bluffing? Now if you were immediately next to the check-raiser, then a raise MIGHT be OK.
Your raise got you 1 bet and risked a lot. You needed the boat, eh?
I like the reraise on 4th street because it makes him think you're on a flush draw (since you have 2 diamonds showing) and he's more likely to pay you off with a hand that can't beat jacks up, hoping you have a busted flush draw. Also, if you catch another diamond he may fold, which you want him to do.
I love raising on 4th street with a 2-flush showing especially if I don't actually have the 4-flush, just because it's easy to take control of the hand and the other player plays much more predictably. You often get the other player playing scared especially if you catch another of your suit on 5th or 6th street.
I think you played the hand OK, and I think the reraise on fourth is a good play. I dont necessarily agree with George, as it may be that your opponent does not consider a reraise as representing a fourflush, although that may be the case in the games that George plays in. I think there was a good chance that you had the best hand the whole way, as your opponent may have only had a pair of A's or K's. His checkraise may have been a play to limit the field also, and would be a good play if he had a pair of A's or K's and thought you had only J's or two pair.
Pat
Again, the implied odds are only so-so. If you had the Ace and a pair, then bet. The overcards are important here.
George, I know you are a good player, but at low limits, that re-raise will cost you in the long run with all those overcards against you. What implied odds are you getting heads-up with a possible flush draw?
"George, I know you are a good player,"
Thank you!
"but at low limits, that re-raise will cost you in the long run with all those overcards against you. What implied odds are you getting heads-up with a possible flush draw?"
What happens when you raise on 4th with 2 to a flush showing (especially 2 to a straight flush) is that they'll check to you when you catch anything remotely scary, and this allows you to take free cards when necessary. Basically, even when you know you're behind on 4th street, what this does is allow you win a bigger pot if you win, while losing a much smaller pot when you lose. Plus they're more likely to fold a big pair (incorrectly) because of all the action you put in on the hand. Basically you control the hand this way, not them. It's easy for you to read your opponents hand, while he has basically no idea what you have.
Hummer,
Not much to add to the excellent responses.
Quite a few people will play AKxs at low limits IMO and when he catches the A he figures he's ahead. I agree with your reraise and the way you played the hand especially with the 2d's put the fear into him that you did have a 4 flush going or 3 of a kind due to your raise on 3rd street. Deception is very important with this type of hand, and you played it excellent IMO. Not that it really matters on OL but next time you get a 2 flush showing no matter what you have and who you are against they won't know what to do and that is important in 7cs they will probably check to you.
Paul
I could buy in for a strategic play since it may not cost you much (deception at a cheap price), but the overcards against you are significant. How many people would re-raise overcards on the come with 3 or even 4 suited cards with the possibility that the flush might not win if the overcards have trips or 2 pair? You are making even money bets. I would like to be getting 2:1 for a flush draw. I realize you do not need 4:1, but even money against a 2:1 pull does not seem like a good bet.
On 4th street, a LIVE flush draw with no overcards is about even money to an overpair. If you have any overcards to the pair you are usually the favorite.
Add to this the fact that your hand is easier to play than your opponent's hand and you'll see why jamming with a flush draw on 4th street definitely isn't the worst play.
I agree, but in this case you do not have overcards.
After more thought and endless simulations of the above hand on Turbo against different styles, I must conclude the hand looses to the overcards for a net loss, but wins enough against the other players to show amodest profit, but not without a wide variance.
Funny to see this. Not that you are wrong. It is just that your reasoning is so different from mine and we do the same, or similar things. I often bet or raise a four-flush to DISGUISE it. If my opponent plays me for a made hand (and not as good as his), he will pay off bigtime if my flush hits. Since I cannot have a four-flush and a pair in four cards, he comes to the obvious conclusion that I DON'T have a flush when the card hits. In fact, he may think I have a high pair when I raise and a pair with a flush draw _after_ I already have the flush. So, his best chance with two pair or a higher pair is to come at me hard, making me pay for the flush draw or getting me out. Plus, if I make an upcard pair instead of making my flush, it looks as if I improved my made hand. Raising with suited up cards to PRETENT to have a flush draw. Hadn't thought of it.
-- Will
Last night I had a really loose, passive Omaha8 game that kept getting short-handed, and I realized that I don't have a good idea of how much to loosen up, both in starting hands and in what to play, as the game gets shorter. Any guidelines?
I'll throw out one example hand to illustrate what I am asking. Say you start on the button, with 10 players, holding §A §3 ©6 ªJ; it is 3 limpers to you, you limp in, and the blinds call. Six players see the flop of
The first players bets, 3 callers, and it is to you. Do you play this hand? The book answer is no - don't draw to less than the nuts; you are only going for half the pot, and the four 2's are not enough of an out for you to draw to.
NOW suppose that only six players started this hand, all 6 saw the flop (don't laugh, this happens a lot in my loose game here), and you get the same flop and have to decide whether to play for the second-nut low. Now do you draw to this hand?
And in general, how much do you loosen up, say, going from 10 players to 5, starting a deal. (Notice that I believe you should probably loosen up only if fewer players are getting hands dealt to them, NOT if fewer stay in. There is a "principle of restricted choice" where, in 9 opposing hands, there is a higher chance of someone being dealt an A2, and whoever did is one of the ones that is still in there! So the number seeing the flop or staying afterward doesn't change things much ... it is always the best ones that started against you!)
Any guidelines out there?
Thanks. Dick
Dick - With the flop and the loose crowd you have described, you are probably facing an assorment of hands after the flop, some low draws, some straight draws, maybe a set, maybe someone with two pair. No one has hit a hand yet. But that will happen soon, and then the game may suddenly get very expensive.
Unless the next two cards are 2-3, 2-Q, or 3-Q, an unlikely scenario (P = 40/990 or about 24 to 1 against), a straight or full house will be possible. If low is also possible, with five original opponents (six handed), and assuming no ace or deuce appears on the turn or river, approximately one time out of every three you will be beaten by A-2 and approximately one time out of four or five you'll be quartered by another A-3.
The trouble is you don't win much when you win, because it's pretty hard to bet the second nuts low for value, and, as you have pointed out, you are only playing for half the pot. On the other hand, you can lose a lot when decide to play tough and hang in there if you are up against the nut low.
I think as the game gets shorter you rely less on the odds and rely more on reading your opponent(s) and your feel for what they have.
However, you can easily get in trouble if you loosen up much when the game still has six players. I'd be very wary of playing A-3 in the situation you have described. Not much profit in it for you, and you're taking a big risk.
When it gets down to four handed (three opponents), approximately one time out of five A-3 will lose to A-2 and approximately one time out of eight A-3 will be quartered by another A-3. Something like that, I think.
With four players, I like the hand.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
... that you think pretty much all strategy doesn't change much going down from 10-handed to 6-handed? Sounds like what you're saying. And in fact, in my game, we normally deal 9-handed, not 10 like in LA or Vegas. And I don't go shorter than 5, not with the jackpot drop and the high rake I face in a 3-6 game. So my question really is bounded by a max of 9 players and a min of 5. Should I just not make any adjustment at all?
BTW, forget reading people and putting them on hands, except for the obvious when a particular card comes and a new player starts betting. These players come in on anything! Really: I can recall the faces / names of 15 or 20 people I play with who play every hand!
Dick
Dick - The Omaha-8 games in L.A. are also nine-handed games. Often someone is away from the table. Sometimes two or three people are away from the table. At some point in the evening when there is no board, but there are still several tables going, the management (at least at Hollywood Park) will try to keep the several games going with as few as seven players per table, not allowing players to change tables unless they trade with someone from the other table. Under these conditions, if someone sits out a hand or a round then you're playing six handed.
Thus you have asked an excellent question. Unfortunately I can't give you an excellent answer.
Alas, I don't know very well how to adjust from nine to eight or from eight to seven or from seven to six. Obviously having the nuts for a winning hand is less likely. I have noticed that more aggressive players seem to have more of an edge when the game is down to six players.
I tend to play more hands with fewer players, but it's hard to specifically tell you what the change is. It just depends. And I'm not sure I'm doing it the best way. There is a whole group of hands that I generally don't play but vaguely wonder about. I tend to play some of these hands if I have position. And I might tend to play more hands after the flop that have 2nd nut potential for low and also 2nd nut potential for high.
For example, change your hand to Ac-3d-6h-Jh (jack suited), and change your flop to Kh-8h-7s. Now you have a shot at both high and low. This kind of hand (3nd nut high draw and 2nd nut low draw) is very dangerous in a full game, because you can get trapped between nut and nut. The danger is still there, but less likely in a six handed game. (I'm trying to come up with a marginal hand to play, both pre-flop and post-flop but it's difficult, so that maybe my example is not very good - jack suited is really pretty trashy pre-flop, and not much better post-flop).
Interestingly, most people are even more averse to playing six handed than I am, so that when the game gets down to six handed it usually quickly goes to no game at all.
It's more difficult for me to play Omaha-8 against five opponents than against nine opponents or one opponent. I think it's partly a matter of simply knowing what a good hand is in that grey area between a full-handed game and a short-handed game.
We read and study what others have written about the game so as to cut down on the cost of learning the game. Alas, there is nothing in the literature of Omaha-8 (at least that I have found - and I have looked) that deals much with playing against five opponents. Maybe the only way to learn is to pay for lessons at the table. Ugh.
At least while I am getting my lessons, I would prefer to pay as little as possible for them. I might not win a lot playing six handed, but by dumping hands like the one in your original example, I would hope not to lose a lot either while I am learning. :o)
I liked and appreciated sucker's response.
Buzz
Dick,
I've never played Omaha 8 in a casino (don't care much for it), but I've played it a lot in home games. These were usually six-handed games, sometimes seven or eight or occasionally five, so I've never played in what would be considered a full game. I can tell you that when everyone takes the flop in a six-handed game, which was frequently the case with us, you're going to see the nuts more often than not. I would say that if you don't loosen up at all when the game is short-handed, you're probably not giving up that much. I can't think of another poker game that I'd say that about.
Hi Dick,
No matter the number of players, if you have Ac 3c 6h Js and the flop comes 7s 8h Kd, you hand is quite poor value-wise. You have almost no chance for high whatsoever (unless you paired your ace, but then your low would be ruined).
That leaves you with just your bare low draw, which isn't good at all since it can be easily counterfeited and it isn't even the nut draw. In some very special scenarios, you could go ahead and take off a card, praying for a deuce. But in most cases I think you have a clear fold in multiway pots because keep in mind that the best you can realistically do is half. Someone might even have an A3 along with you so you are playing for only a quarter even if a deuce hits.
Even in shorthanded pots, you still have pretty much no chance for high. Depending on whom you are up against you may still be able to turn a profit on the hand by outplaying your opponent. But if you strongly suspect that an ace deuce is out there then you are done with it since the A3 is the only real value your hand has and your jack kicker sucks.
If your hand had more possibilities that would give it a chance to scoop or three quarter, then you would be more inclined to play. For example, if one of the cards on that flop was a club, it is probably worth taking a card off, especially in a multiway pot. In a shorthanded pot change that jack in your hand to a nine or king (giving you either a straight draw or a pair of kings w/ace kicker on that flop)and you have an easy play.
The main difference between shorthanded and multiway is that in shorthanded pots you don't need to worry about the nuts as much. More important in shorthanded is that you have a lot of outs for both sides.
Regarding shorthanded tables, an ace in your hand gets much stronger because pairing it later on may actually be good for high. Also you don't have to worry about nut flushes and nut lows nearly as much. You can play any A3, that's for sure, and almost all A4's. Strictly high hands go a little up in value since there won't be as many good low draws up against you and three low cards won't always hit. Hands like KK42 are quite strong if you play them well after the flop. And of course, keep avoiding crap like KT98 and 8873. Two/three good high cards and two good low cards, along with perhaps a flush draw, is usually sufficient. Bottom line, all four cards in your hand need to be useful in some way and your hand has to have a decent chance to scoop, even if it cannot make super strong hands for both ways. Don't be overly aggressive preflop because you are probably not much of a favorite (if at all) against any hand your opponent could have, and the flop will determine everything anyway no matter how strong your starting hand is. Tighten up more against your tough opponents and try to get position on them if possible by changing seats (assuming you don't already have position on them). This is super important in full-tabled Omaha/8, super super important in shorthanded Omaha/8 because when the game gets shorthanded you won't be able to steal their blinds as much.
Most important of all, try to get a feel for the type of hands they like to play preflop (that is, what do they need to call and what do they need to raise/reraise?), and the kinds of hands/draws they call or raise with on the flop when someone bets. This information will be very useful when you play pots with them.
sucker
PS i really like your web page, by the way. Congratulations on your recent success at the holdem tables.
PPS I strongly recommend you try playing some Omaha/8 at an Internet cardroom even if it is just for play money and practice (that is if you don't already). The game goes much faster. And the games are still quite soft, even at the $10-20 (paradise) and $15-30 (planet) limits.
sucker - I copied your response to my Omaha file.
(That's my way of saying I appreciate your response).
:o)
Buzz
I really don't have much to say about the hand except to say I'd probably fold there.
Sorry if I didn't seem to have much to say last night, I'm not very good at talking with people I don't know already. But it was nice to meet you.
Same here, George. I've enjoyed your posts for a long time, and it seemed silly that we played in the same room all the time and had never met. So I asked Jim to show me who you were. We'll work on the "not knowing" part.
I am planning to make it to the Q&A session at the Mirage on April 20 - I expect to meet a lot of these faceless posters for the first time, then!
Dick
what he means is that he doesnt warm up to you until hes got some of your money :)
brad
George Lind III? Is this your way of acknowledging your trust fund status?
For that match play tourney at Casino AZ they put me up on the bracket as George Lind III. I've never really liked using it but for some reason I liked the way it looked up there, so I am no longer George Lind, I'm George Lind III.
George, I know you play mostly in the top section at Casino AZ, but have you had a chance to run into my buddy from Edmonton, Don T? Dick in Phoenix knows him quite well. He plays mostly in the 3-6 and 4-8 O/8 kill games there.
I just met Dick the other night, briefly. No, I haven't met your friend yet. Maybe Dick will introduce me sometime.
Yeah, George, it has a nice ring to it. My son-in-law is Chandler Harlan Gebhart IV, but he and my daughter recently declined to name their new son The Fifth.
I'll introduce you to Don T any time I see you both there.
Dick
Sounds like Rounder is right. Not too many guys from the 'hood have III after their name.
(But it's still better than Jr)
it didn't propagate itself to the point where it was actually large enough to read.
JG
Late one night I played 3-handed omaha/8, it mainly was two of us spliting the blinds and maybe one bet or someone taking it all on one bet. I don't think short handed play in omaha8 is the same as short handed in stud or holdem.
Scott - At a full, loose table, low limit Omaha-8 game is a drawing game. However, when playing short handed you don't get the odds to draw. Completely changes the game.
The high/low aspect changes the strategy from that of high-only games. Short handed it's nice to have some emergency low to go with your high.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
I'm saying that 3 or 4 handed omaha8 isn't as good or even worth playing compared to the same amount of players in a stud or holdem game. In fact with only 3 players at the table I think omaha8 is totally unplayable, unless one is a drunk beginner.
Scott - Hmmm.... What's "worth playing"? Most of the 3 or 4 handed Omaha-8 I have played has been near the end of a tournament when there are only three or four of us left. Since tournaments are very top heavy in terms of pay outs, it's certainly "worth playing."
Of course tournament play is very much different than ring game play. Even so, at one point in my development I thought that having more short handed playing experience might help me at the end of a tournament. I actively sought out short handed casino ring games just to get experience playing short handed.
Alas, people don't want to play short handed in ring games in casinos. I managed to get in some short handed play in casino ring games a few times, but the games didn't last long.
I do not mean to imply that short handed Omaha-8 is a great game, or even that Omaha-8 is a great game compared to Texas hold 'em or seven card stud.
I heard Chris Ferguson speak once. After his speech someone asked him what meant more to him, winning the WSOP title or the million plus bucks he won.
Chris replied that he didn’t play for money. He went on to explain that he played to win rather than for the money (while humorously acknowledging that, of course, winning in poker meant winning money, and the world series money was nice). He said he learned the game of poker by using play money and that he tried very hard to win the play money.
Reminded me of playing monopoly when I was a kid. For me, the game was the thing. That’s how it still is for me. And that’s what Chris was saying.
Not "worth playing" - "unplayable"?
Maybe so.
Buzz
when its shorter handed like six handed that is being referred to id not play very much looser at all. it seems that the game is still six or multiway pots so you need big hands to compete after the flop. and the only way to get big hands is to start with hands with lots of outs. with so much action anyway you will not be penalized by the blinds coming around more often. the way that you play looser is that you may go farther with a less than cinch hand when the pot gets big or just make some weaker calls with marginal one way hands. but not much. if we are talking about true shorthanded where maybe only four or five take a hand and the flop is usually two or most three players then you need to change your game. you still must have good hands but some hands that were trash become decent. lots of 2 way hands that wouldnt be very good in a multiway pot sometimes get to scoop a headup pot. weak lows many times get the low half while aces or much less may win the top part. you find yourself making crying calls for half the pot often with just a chance at one way.
O/8 $3-$6 online. Table too loose but no idiots.
I have Qd Th 4d 2h at BB (seat #2). Seats 4,7,8,9 and SB call. 6 plrs, pot $18.
Flop: Qs 8d 3d. All check to #8 who bets. It's called only by me and #4. 3 plrs, pot $27.
Turn: Qs 8d 3d 7h. I check, #4 also. #8 bets and we both call. 3 plrs, $45 in the pot.
River: Qs 8d 3d 7h 9c. Again checked to #8 who bets. I raise, #4 folds, #8 calls and shows A 2 5 7. We split $66 (rake $3 is taken) pot.
At the table (keybord... ?!) I liked my play. A tricky (but routine for good player, as I believed) raise on the river I made to ensure that #4, seeing scared 9, will throw out two pairs or better queen.
But now I have doubts re my play.
Look:
Flop - Should I call?. Maybe better to fold as I'm not drawing to nuts. What about a raise - it is bad against A Q 2 x albeit I still have outs; otherwise it's hard to call for somebody who has only good Q or two small pairs. And heads up my hand look better.
Turn - Is it better to fold? Maybe better to raise - the same argument as above.
River - Is my raise really good? Maybe I'm way, way wrong. Who is it better to make this move against - expert or unimaginative player? Would expert at #4 call (if still in the pot) with reasonable high cards. Shouldn't he ask himself what the made straight is raising for?
Any comments welcome. Thanks in advance.
Zbych,
Zbych - I like your play, especially your check-raise on the river. (I presume you fold if seat #4 calls and seat #8 re-raises. I also presume you fold if seat #4 bets, rather than checks, on the river and seat #8 raises).
I think you can play your hand several ways, all of which are correct. (I like to vary my play). The way you did it seems fine.
I have not tried gambling on the internet. Simply does not appeal to me. It's not far for me to drive to Hollywood Park (closest) or one of the other L.A. casinos when I want a game. Plus I play weekly in a private game.
Buzz
Zbych,
Preflop you played it perfectly. On the flop, you have a draw to the third nut low with no redraws, a draw to the third nut flush, and a pair of queens with a terrible kicker.
In a shorthanded pot your hand is quite good. But since the pot is multiway I believe you have a clear fold, especially since you are out of position, several players remain to act behind you, the game is loose, and the pot isn't all that big. With five other players having called preflop it's likely that one or two of the aces (that you need to hit to make the nut low) are dead anyway. Your lone pair of queens has very little chance of holding up with so many other players in, and you don't want to take the chance of drawing dead in the event that someone has a better flush draw (ace high or king high) than you.
sucker
[Check]raising with a weak high to get rid of a weak but slightly better high is, as you say, a standard-but-tricky move to get half the pot. As such, I would have thought that it is probably wasted on 3-6 players and you would have got called by a player with two pair (though probably not AQ). You cannot bluff a mug!?
Was the 9 such a scary river card in any event? It only made a backdoor straight.
Oh no!! Not again!
I would have called with two pair on the river, so I think your raise on the river just made #4 fold a non-nut low or one pair. In short, nothing gained on river raise IMHO.
You can come play in my game, anytime, son.
I realize you took this flop from the BB, so I cannot fault your play at this point. Now, the flop comes down, and you are drawing to 3rd nut low, 3rd nut flush, and top pair, no kicker. What part of this flop did you like?
Now the low comes on the turn, and the original bettor continues to bet, at least portraying a low hand. You still call with the same powerhouse. I cannot add much at this point to my first comments.
Now that you have come this far, I suppose that your 'logic' in trying to push out #4 makes some sense given the nature of the board. But it would have served you right if #4 had made a straight and was laying (correctly) in wait for #8 to bet what appeared to be his low hand, and trap you into calling on some sort of cheese hand, and then whacking you for a checkraise. Or better yet, if there really was a Poker God, #8 would show you something like A-2-3-7 and his baby 2-pair would swoop.
Sorry, pal, I think you butchered this hand from the get-go, and I will be surprised if any of the other posters think differently.
I'm still learning O/8 BUT
you have weak draws multiway. This is a recipe for disaster.
Possibly yours plays are good at an expert level. I would have no idea.
You are drawing to the non nuts in a multi-way Omaha 8 hand. This is just too costly.
Derrick Ashworth
.
Okay, I play mostly holdem and omaha 8/b, but play some stud in home games and am trying to improve. This hand was 1-5 stud, 50 cents ante.
I have (K J)K, my cards are live, and am first to act after bring-in. I raise to 6. Next to act, a somewhat loose player (SLP), cold calls with (X Y)6. 6s are live. Rest of the field folds, so we're heads up.
On 4th street I catch a jack, (K J)K J, and SLP catches a 6, (X Y) 6 6. SLP bets 5, I raise to 10. My thinking is I may still be ahead, and if not I'd like to find out now. I can read SLP fairly well. SLP raises to 15. Now I figure there's an 80 to 85 percent chance SLP has trip 6s. However, the pot's now fairly big, so I decide to chase hoping to hit my 4-outer. Was this a mistake?
I call SLP down, don't improve, and SLP wins with trip 6s.
Another question - SLP coldcalled 6 bucks on 3rd street w/ (A 6) 6. Is this a good call? I'm inclined to think yes, since SLP's kicker is bigger than the pair I'm representing. However, I'd like opinions from more experienced stud players.
Thanks,
Caddy
In stud, a paired door card should send out a meesage to you. 1st off, it sure was a poor play on his part to call your bring in raise. When you got re-raised on 4th street, you had to figure 99-100% he had trips. I'm questioning your raise on 4th in the 1st place and when he bumped you back, you found out where he was at, you could have folded here as I don't think the pot odds justified chasing trips with two pair.
If you're going to raise "to find out where you're at" but then ignore the information you get, don't raise for that reason.
You're raise on 4th itself is not a bad raise. It's hard to imagine your opponent cold-called your raise on 3rd with split 6's, so there is a good chance you have the best hand on 4th so basically you're raising for value making him pay for whatever he is drawing to.
I do think he made a mistake on 3rd calling your raise even though he has an Ace as a kicker. If his kicker would have been anything less than an Ace he would have made a real bad mistake. Either way, the small ante structure in 1-5, especially after the immediate rake they take on 3rd, does not warrant a chase with such a mediocre hand. He took much the worse of it in that confrontation and got lucky.
Overall calling with 2 overpairs vs. suspected lower trips is OK if the pot odds are there. On 4th that was hardly the case initially when he bet out. After the several raises on 4th you did create your own pot odds and committed yourself to go to the river. Personally I hate putting in too much money after people called my raise on 3rd, pair their door on 4th and fire right into me, but that's just me. But it's difficult to fold Kings-up on 4th and you have to be very sure for the fold to be correct. Reading your opponent correctly becomes key in making the right decision.
1. It is tough to fold your hand, but that is what being a good player is. I dontthink the pot was big enough to call, because you are in a position that you must check-call the remainder of the hand, and your opponenet has a better chance to make a full house than you do. You should fold.
2. He made the correct play by calling, although reraising is not out of the question with his hand, and in a game like 5-10 or higher it is essential. Folding is undoubtedly the worst play on third street, although in a game where a reraise wont scare anyone off it may be correct occasionally. A pair with and overcard to a higher pair is a small dog and shows a profit in a heads up pot. If he thought he could get one or two free cards by reraising on third street then he clearly should do so.
Pat
When the game is 1-5, and the bet is the max of $5.00, the implied odds on third and fourth street are much worse than in a structured limit game like 5/10 or 10/20 because betting limits don't double on fifth street. Hence, catching your hand isn't worth nearly as much as it would be in the higher limit game.
Heads up on fourth street I would surely fold my pair when against what I perceived as certain trips. It wouldn't pay to chase.
Similarly, for the same reason, I would not have called your $5 raise on third street with a pair of 6s and an Ace kicker.
This would be especially true if the rake was what it is where I play: 10% $4 max, further diminishing the amount you will win if your hand hits.
Ashley
The trip 6's chances of improving to a full house really doesn't need to be considered here, since with (K J) K J when you improve to a boat, you'll almost always win, barring quads or aces full. But I'm a holdem player too, so i could be botching this post...
Bill
Caddy,
"I have (K J)K, my cards are live, and am first to act after bring-in. I raise to 6."
In low limits I very seldom raise with this hand in your pos'n. I would of made it 3 in a semi-loose game to weed out the $1 callers, but if it's a tight game I would just call the bring-in or whatever will probably end up with 2-4 players. Now when the 6 pairs and bets 5 I would just call. It would most likely be heads up and I would call all the way unless I improved then I would raise. You cut your loses and if you catch a K on 5th or 6th street players will not think you have a full house or trips most of the time.
Tight game $1 call=$21.5 you put in to play the hand.
Semi-Tight $3 call=$23.5
Caddy Play $6 call+ 2 raises $10=$36.5
(math suspect)
Caddy to play your way is $15 or $13 more expensive if you lose. That's alot in a LL game 30 ante's. For me it's not what you win in LL but to give yourself the best chance to make the most, without risking $36.5 on a paired door card vs two pair hth. When I put in $36.5 I want to be ahead most of the way and maybe get rivered if I lose. You may sacrifice someone drawing out on you but you will make up that and then some if you catch a J/K to fill-up because that's when you want to throw that $36.5 into a multiway pot and clean house vs flushes and straights.
paul
Caddy,
You played the hand perfectly. Except against only the most readable players, you can't give complete credit to 3 6's. If that's the case, then your K's up could be best and if not, you have 4 outs with three to come.
With 50c ante, raise was fine, call was fine as well.
There is no way to fold this hand at any point unless up against total rock. Even then, only the river is a definite fold, and by then it may be worth calling if rock knows you think he's a rock he may try a move on you.
The only questionable part of this hand is 4th street raise because I may not want to knock him out and may want opponent to catch up a little (if he's ahead that can't be changed) and this combination MAY make calling better but I'm not certain. But folding after his reraise is not proper. He could be reraising you with two pair. After all, isn't it reasonable, that if you don't put him on calling with split 6's, you might raise with one pair or up and down to get him out if his hand was something like 678-6? Then he might want to remove on you with two pair. Or he might move on you just because he thinks you have one pair and he can put a bluff on the whole way as a slight dog and get you to fold one pair on the end. I played a hand once where I had buried 3's, made split 6's on 4. Bet full amount, got raised by aces, three bet the hand. Bet it all the way including the river and got paid off by dry aces.
Moral of the story: Once you make Kings up, especially with both pairs over 6's, you are in to the end and that's the end of story. Unless of course opponent flipped over 3rd six.
He said that he read the guy as having three sixes, if I recall correctly. He also seemed to know the player in question quite well. Another possibility is a that his opponent trap-called with pocket AA (it was ALREADY gonna be headsup) which is just as bad as A6 on this combo or (66)6 which would be worse. Once you are going to be headsup, disguising ones hand by NOT reraising is often right. If he really had a good read that his opponent had made a good hand, I think that he should fold. However, if he were in doubt, calling can't be criticized.
-- Will
His call with (A6)is fine. Headsup, he has a play even if you HAVE your Kings. As you point out, his 'kicker' is the best one profitable. As someone pointed out, as if it were a *ING revelation, "it is sometimes right to chase in stud." I think he was right, or at least not badly off, to chase in this situation. Conversely, I dunno if I would chase with YOUR four-outer. If you KNOW you are chasing trip sixes, your best move is to fold. BTW, if you know your cards are live and that the six is live, you are outplaying many of the HE players who come to our tables to show us stud players what is what.
-- Will
This hand will raise now.
There is no I to do this,
The cards themselves act.
was sb in a home game (10-20 blinds, pot limit to 300 - game is fairly tight/aggressive).
flop comes J-J-4R, i had limped in with 4-4-x-x. check to BP (best player in game) who raises pot $110, and is called by other good player. at this point, i put them both on a jack in the hand, with perhaps one of them already having jacks full.
being out of position, i folded.
next card was a 6 and the players agreed to chop the pot before seeing the river (that happens frequently in our home game). indeed, they both had a trip jacks, but neither on had filled up. they turned the river card which of course, was the case 4, giving me quads, that had i stayed, i didn't even need.
question: i had already seen these low full houses busted repeatedly that night already, and didn't feel like calling only to be, essentially, drawing dead.
what is the best way to play these kinds of hands???
thanks
Fold them before the flop! I think you answered your own question about the perils of playing baby pairs in O/8, when the pair is the only 'feature' of the hand. If you have something like A-2-4-4, you can see the flop hoping for lows, and if you luck into a small full as well, that's a bonus. But playing small pairs is perilous enough in limit O/8, never mind the risks of doing so in pot limit. Short of flopping quad's, you can never get aggressive with them.
as its a home game, putting in the extra 10 for the small blind in an unraised pot is almost mandatory (otherwise, i'll seem too tight).
however, even assuming my hand were better say A-3-4-4, with this flop, what is the best way to proceed??
How much do you want to gamble?
What is the stack size of each guy in the hand... including yours?
If you put both of them on J's, what would you consider the chance of 1 of them having the Case 4?
Say they don't have the case 4, and their other hole cards do not match your hole cards or each others hole cards. They have to spike one of their hole cards, leaving them with 18 outs against you. However, if they are Tight-Aggressive players they will in all likely hood have similar hands (hi wrap like hands), thus counterfitting each other. Give them even 15 combined outs against you rather than 18. 52 - your 4 hole cards - 3 flop cards - 2 J's 43 cards remaining for them to hit 43-15/43 * 42-15/42 = 34%. You have a 34% chance of them NOT hitting if you say there are 15 outs against you. What would there actions be on the turn if they miss? The problem is often players do the same thing in pot limit if they hit or miss. "I check" and when they miss they bet. So you could have to pay $400 by the river to find your 1 outer.
I would have folded preflop like Dunc said, but if I was there after the fact I would have had to consider their chips relative to mine and what their actions would be on 4th street. If I am a huge chip leader over them, I would call every time. If I didn't have them covered, I would fold more often then not.
By the sounds of it your SB is actually a BB and you have no choice as to call or not.
Just my opinions
Derrick
you almost certainly have the best hand and should raise to get all in if possible and you dont have so much as to lose alot if he has quads or the case 4. most likely one will go out and you get to play against just trips with maybe 10 outs against you. most times both will fold and you win the decent sized pot already.
Ray, how much worse is folding here rather than raising?
If they have a J in their hand can you assume they are playing with something like 9TJQ, TJQK or A2JQ? would they both fold to a 300 bet?
If your stack is big and you could potentially lose 600+ over the next 2 rounds do you still raise here?
This is really a pot limit question (i seldom read that forum since I do not play PL)
BTD,
its clearly the best hand and you want to get all in on the flop or 4th street with this hand if you can. if you have an awful lot of chips you may want to raise on the flop and slow down when bigger cards may come. most real good players wont continue on with just a jack facing strong bets and a few may come with three big with it. so what, you have way the best of it and this is a spot you want to play in.
Thank you,
in my original reply I suggest raising or folding but leaned toward folding. It's obvious that you have the best hand NOW and I still lean toward folding. This shows why I would not want to play PL with a big stack in front of me.
(As a matter of fact, the biggest loss I have ever had was playing PL Omaha).
yes its a pot limit game, however, as the original message stated, with a $300 cap.
after mulling it over this weekend, i decided that while folding was an ok decision, i should have raised $300 (putting in $410) reasons:
with two players in, i am fairly certain that they both have one jack. by raising now, i might eliminate one player, if not, i believe that i am getting the best of it odds wise. each player has 2-3 outs (assuming no j-4) - combined the maximum outs are 18, minimum might be 6 (each have one pair, plus share other card in common) oops, forgot a running paired board. with two cards to come, and me getting 2-1 on my money, i believe that the odds are in my favor.
however, i'm not a huge favorite i think, so a fold is not a terrible decision. the problem with a hand like this is that i won't know where i stand plus i have crappy position.
i think a hand like this will make money in the long run, however when the cards go bad, you'll endure a lot of painful beats.
They need J4 to have you beat. You have 2 fours so for sure only one of them is full and you are probably best right now. Between them they have a lot outs on the turn and river.
I would have dumped preflop. You must be able to fold some hands without seeming to tight.
After the flop, you either must raise the max or fold. I opt for folding even though I think I'm the best right now
why limp in with 4-4-x-x if youre just gonna fold a great flop?
That's exactly the problem with baby pairs in Omaha, isnt' it? You can get the "magic" flop like this and either you never know where you are at, or you even have to fold.
As I mentioned above, I think, I would never limp in with something like 4-4-5-7, or 4-4-J-T. If his hand is A-2-4-4, that's a different story, and even then he has to tread very carefully.
Omaha/8
1) A2hK3s 2) ATh98s
I've never seen a complete hand ranking for Omaha/8 such as Sklansky's popular ranking for Holdem. How much higher should a hand like (1) rank above the other?
Thanks - Nick
IMO, the equivalent HE hand for #1 would be about KK. the equivalent HE hand for #2 would be about T7o.
Hand #1 gives you multiple chances for scooping. You have backup for lows, a nut suited Ace, a 2nd nut suited King, Broadway possibilities. I love this type of hand for O/8.
Hand #2 OTOH is a piece of junk. About the only redeeming feature is the suited Heart Ace. You have no low draws,and the only str8 you will like is Broadway. Middle cards from 6-10 in O/8 are death. Dump this puppy as soon as possible.
I agree.
1) is a premium hand, (better than KK in Th'e, IMHO).
2) is trash.
Buzz
Is this the Buzz who is famous for his drunk act? I'm an old friend.
Gambelero - Sorry. Wrong Buzz.
hands get worse more than in holdem as the number of players decreases. but the above 2 answers are right, hand 2 is trash. but headsup hand 2 is only about a 3 to 2 dog if played out and may do okay if last by the much better player.
Nick:
Do yourself a favor and buy Ray Zee's textbook "High-Low Split Poker." A question like this one you have posed will become quite clear and much, much more.
Indeed, if you plan on playing Omaha/8 and making money at it be sure to properly study this for of poker from the best pros/teachers. Otherwise, you'll have hard time at the tables.
Good luck!
Way way higher
you should quit the game if there are 2 ace of hearts
Much....
Seven card stud in the Midwest is commonly played starting with three cards down and one up on the first betting round, then three more cards up, one at a time, with a betting round after each card. I play in a weekly game which is structured $15-30 with a $2 ante and $5 bring-in. Obviously the game requires significant strategy adjustments compared to Vegas style stud. Would be interested in opinions from Sklansky, Ray Zee, Mason, and others regarding minimum starting hand requirements and other basic strategy.
My thoughts are as follows:
It is much easier to start with a monster starting hand which is hidden such as trips, Aces-up, or a four flush. As a result, it seems a hand like a pair of queens or small two pair can be a trap holding. A small pair with an Ace or King kicker may not be worth calling the bring-in in late position unless it also has a three flush and is completely live.
In an eight-handed game, the pot offers odds of 21:15 on an ante steal. In my game, raising with the highest up card when only the bring-in has come in results in an ante steal success rate of only about 25-30%, resulting in an immediate slightly negative expectation.
I usually play trips (obviously), four-flushes, live four straights, live high two pair (Queens up or better), and sometimes a live pair of Aces or Kings (if the pot has not been raised yet) and usually raise with all these hands. I try to limp in with other hands in late position (live pairs with a three flush/three straight, high gut shot straights, and small live two pairs.)
I don't like calling raises without trips, live aces-up, or a live Ace-high four flush.
The higher number of down cards at the start makes reading hands much more difficult than in Vegas style stud. Pairing the door card is still a red flag. Full houses and four of a kind commonly occur with no pair showing. Bluffing and semi-bluffing seem less rewarding because most people are starting with a real hand that can go to the river.
The game I play in has the additional rule of no check-raising, which is too bad. I therefore routinely play my hands straight-forward fashion.
Very interested in all opinions
Hoosierdaddy
Isn't that where you all have to wear red sweaters and throw the chair on the table when you get a bad beat?
I planned post separately but to save your time, I'm putting my 3-part series into one post. Please, think on one part, before reading the next one. ------ 1. *Hand* O/8 $20 - $40. I'm in BB holding 8c 6c 3d 2h. Only middle position (bad player) and late position (very good, aggresive player) called. The flop: As Qd 5c. I checked, the middle man bet, and the third player and I both called. On the turn came the 9c, giving me an inside-straight draw, a low draw, and a weak four-flush. Again, it was check, bet, call, call. The river card was the Qc. I checked, the second player bet, and the third player raised.
Questions: What he had?, Should I call? ------- 2. *My answers*
What he had?
AK - no, if he wanted to make a move here, he would've done it on the flop or the turn.
AQ - no, it is must_raise_on_the_flop_or_the_turn hand.
(A)55(2), 55(32), QQ - no, the same reason as above.
KKJT (or KQJT) king high flush - no, raise loses calls from worse and gets calls from better hands.
KQJT no flush - that's it!, a little risky (bettor may have boat), but makes almost impossible for small flush to call. But he underestimated my reading ability.
So: I CALL and hope first bettor has no full. ----------- 3. *Full story*
This thought provoking hand I took from "Championship Omaha" by TJ and Mc Evoy.
>> Dana tells this story:"(....). I didn't know the player in the middle but I knew the guy in third position to be a high-limit, aggresive cash game player. (...). I thought about calling, but with no low and only a little flush against what was probably full house, I folded. The player in the middle called with an A-10. The third player showed an A-K. Neither had a flush or full house, not even a set!"
The third man simply made a move at the pot, that's all. Your play was right. "Yes, but I lost the pot! I made the right play but got the wrong result." Let me tell you something important here: If you cannot lay down a winner in poker, you cannot win. Otherwise, you're a calling station and you're a goner. Remember that. << ---------
Comments welcome,
Zbych,
I play this from time to time and although I dislike the game I love the competetion.
Has anyone played this enough to have a feel for what playing correctly might be? If I was to write a book on it today my opening hands would be Categories 1-2-3 and maybe some suited connectors and Axs.
Winning hands are almost always the nuts say like in Omaha so there's no playing any two suited cards and crap like that.
I'd really appreciate any help, I know the math changes somewhat but Im sure someone out there could give me a few pointers.......Thank you
I failed to mention that the structure is exactly like hold em, you just have to toss one or two of your cards at the end, it's not like you have to use a certain amount of cards, just can't use all three.
Tahoe as played in the Pacific Northwest is always a hi-low game with an 8 for low qualifier. If you think you have players who don't understand Omaha/8, Tahoe is even more of an unknown. No known books written about it. My opinion is that it is most like Crazy Pineapple if you are familiar with that game (players dealt 3 cards, bet, flop, discard 1 card of the 3, bet, turn, bet, river, bet. As you say, it's often a game of the nuts when you have a full table and 7 or more take the flop. Personally, I like it a lot. Ace