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I think you'd much rather be playing this hand against other high hands rather than two low hands. Chances are pretty good that one of the lows will get there and lock up half the pot. So you're pretty much fighting for 1/2 of a pot in which you are putting 1/3 of the money into. Often one of the two lows will make two pair/trips/boat/straight/flush to beat your hand which is a DRAWING HAND. Of course sometimes both lows will bust out and you'll scoop, but I think that's a rarity.
Personally I woulda dumped this hand on 4th street, especially with that round being capped. Once they both hit more low cards on 5th street things don't look too good. The only thing any more low cards would do is IMPROVE THEIR HAND(trips/two pair/straight).
Read Rays book if you haven't already.
DONT PLAY THIS TRASH HAND IN STUD/8. (EXCEPT WHEN YOU ARE LAST POSITION TO STEAL ANTES). playing the babies, starting with three low cards 6 and lower is a MUST in this game. YOU need to play low-hands that develope into two-way hands............
Wilsons Turbo Omaha Hi is pretty good, Omaha Hold'em Poker (Bob Ciaffone)
paul
Paul, Is this a reference to the software, or is there a book I don't know about?
Easy E,
To the software sorry for the confusion it's pretty good to run simulations and to play, although if you play make sure you use a tight field and run all your simulations with a tight field.
Paul
I'm looking to add some different poker games in my weekly home game. I was wondering about the different types of home games that people already play. Currently we have been playing Hold'em, Stud, Hi or Low Chicago, Follow the queen, Omaha, Lowball, 5 card draw - Jacks or Better - trips to win.
Any other games that make for good pots???
I think that seven card stud high-low is the best home poker game, and it certainly does make for some big pots if that's what you're going for. Some home games have a betting round after the declaration, but I recommend against it. It just punishes the weaker players, and they tend to get punished plenty as it is. If you do use a declare, make sure that you clarify what happens in cases where a high-low declarant blows it one way. What the ruling is isn't as important as having the rules in place before there's an unpleasant confrontation. Omaha Eight or better is a good home game too.
Since you guys go for silly games like Follow the Queen and Chicago, I was introduced to a game called Count Your Diamonds at a home game not too long ago. Ace of Diamonds counts 14 points, king of diamonds counts 13 points, queen of diamonds counts 12 points, jack counts 11, and spot cards count their spot value (e.g., 7 of diamonds is 7 points). Highest point count in diamonds splits with the high hand. It's probably not going to be introduced at the World Series of Poker any time soon, but it isn't a bad game.
FWIW, I think that Chicago is about the worst game there is. In poker, there are very few situations where you can achieve a mortal lock. In high-low stud with a declare, you can make a wheel, which gives you the lock low, but it's also a good but vulnerable high hand. Do you risk a sure half of the pot to win it all? In Omaha Eight, lock lows are common, but you always run the risk of being quartered. In high-only games, locks are rare. You'll get into a raising war when you've got a full house, and you may be confident that you have the best hand, but you usually can't be 100% sure, especially if you're as lousy as I am when it comes to keeping track of what people folded. It is this uncertainty that gives poker its excitement, in my humble opinion. In Chicago, on the other hand, the guy with the ace of spades is locked, period. The only thing left for him to do is to decide how long to wait before he starts jamming. There's no suspense. This game is as un-poker as a poker game can be.
I call this the idiot's special (after playing it a couple of times, i refuse to play it ever again):
Rules as in Chicago, EXCEPT a) Unless a person can scoop (no declare), the hand is dumped and the next person around table deals the same game, adding to pot b) Dump and deal keeps rotating until it gets back to the original dealer, at which point the "scoop or dump" rule is abandoned and it goes back to high spade/ hi hand splitting what is now a bigger pot.
So, you'd be betting trips, straights, even full houses (or not betting, actually) with no chance to scoop, so no point... VERY dumb version.
Try this: Pitch two after the flop (catchy name, eh?). Hi/lo split, with qualifiers (trips/87). Deal 5 cards to everyone. Bet. Flop 3 cards. Now you MUST throw away two of the cards in your hand. Bet. Turn card. Bet. River card. Bet. Cards speak. Pots can get big, and after the turn/river someone is usually bitching about throwing away the wrong two. Raucous ribbing generally ensues. No real dealer advantage, but usually lots of action. Try it; you'll like it.
There is a game we play sometimes at my home game called blastoff. Every player starts off with seven cards, it is played high/low. You get seven cards, then there is a betting round. Then you immediately pass four cards to the person to your left. Then you bet again, then you pass three more to your left, then you bet, then two cards, bet, then one card, and finally bet.
After all the passing, you arrange the cards in any order then lay them face down on the table. Then everyone still in the hand flips over a card, then there is a round of betting, then you flip another one, then bet, and so on till you determine a winner.
This game is buck wild, and makes for HUGE pots. I saw one of the coolest plays ever playing this game. Someone was going high (don't have to declare, but he had flipped trips already so ya had a good idea where he was going) And two people were going low.. both fliping ace, deuce, and trey first three cards. Fourth card, one of them turned over a five, and the other flipped a four. The one with the four bet and the other one was mad and folded, and showed a six high (pot was well over 100 dollars, playing 2 dollar limit during the passing, three dollar limit during the flipping) Then, when the one with the four pulled his last card, it was a Ten! Boy, was the person with the six high hot! He got the red ass like I have never seen before. Hope you try this game sometime, lots of fun!
7cs with a floater turned same time as 4th street card.
Elevator deal 4 or 5 cards to each player and three rows of 2 with the deck in the middle. Turn over the three rows cellar, 2nd flr, and finally the penthouse. Finally turn over the top card on the deck and u can use it with any row of two. Lots of action full house usually wins.
Zig-Zag deal 4 or 5 cards to each player and place 4 cards in the middle making a Z with them two on top and two on bottom. Turn over 1 at a time betting on each one top left first, bottom right next, top right next, and bottom left. Anything can win from a pair of K's to full house.
paul
Paul - What's a "floater"?
Buzz
Buzz,
Paul - What's a "floater"? It is a common card that can be used in making of your hand or anybody else that is in the hand. It makes if the best 5 out of 8. The dealer places it in front of him and turns it on 4th street, this usually makes a pair and therefore raises the cost of playing. Most people will stay to see the floater. In home games that's what you want because your usually playing for less than what you usually play for in a casino.
Paul
Here's a home game that we play a lot. Qualifier - 5 cards down to each player, 4 community cards dealt down. 1st community card turned up followed by round of betting in increments of one betting unit - let's say 1$. All raises must be in 1$ increments. 2nd card overtuned - 2$ incerments for betting (same for 3rd and 4th cards). Players can exchange one card with the one on top of the deck for the price of 5$ at the end. One last betting round of 5$. No declare - high and low split but high must qualify with a straight or better, low must qualify with an 8 or better. If nobody qualifies, the hand is redealt between those still in at the end. By the way, the start of betting rotates on each round of betting. Winning hands are usually a boat for high, and a 7 or better for low.
Mississippi is 7cs with the fourth and fifth cards dealt together and the last card face up. Great game even if I do say so myself (its my own invention) which is far better for PL play than 7cs and is also excellent for NL. Also much faster and more active than conventional 7cs when played with limit betting.
If you like the 3-2-1-1 structure of missisippi you might also be interested on some elaborations on it (which I also invented).
Murrumbidgee is mississippi with three hole cards dealt at the start (plus one upcard), proceeding the same way from there, ie with two upcards dealt at the second round, followed by the 6th and 7th one at a time, face up. Two, one or none of the hole-cards may be used at the end. Only six players can be dealt in at a time. Murrumbidgee is also an excellent hi-lo game.
Another good hi-lo game (which is not so good for high IMO) is a variation on courcheval, the French PL game: in courcheval each player gets four hole-cards and one communal is turned to start, followed by a two card flop, then a turn and river. In my variation two communal upcards are dealt in the first round, but only one can be used in each final hand. ie, you can use one for your high hand and the other (if you wish) for your low. Three upcards must be used in the final hand. Dynamite hil-lo game.
If you want to raise your blood pressure try pinatubo, which is a stripped deck game. From a 32 or 36 card deck deal everyone two downcards and turn one communal card: bet, then flop two cards, bet, turn a fourth, bet, then turn a fifth communal card. Also plays very well with three hole-cards: in both versions two hole-cards must be used in the final hand. Can also be dealt with a floating (extra) communal card on the first round. You won't know what's happening in this game when you first play it, but it is in fact a version of manila (same game with a 3-1-1-1-1 layout), which is popular in parts of Europe and which is the most popular limit game in Australia and New Zealand.
DAvid Z
KQT in fact has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ. With the first hand, you must catch AJ or J9. With the second, you must catch AT or T9. Both have exactly one rank you can catch to leave you open-ended. And as for high-card power, jacks don't cover much ground that tens don't already, especially in high-low. The difference in value between the two hands is negligible.
I don't think that his hand is all that mediocre a draw on fourth street. He has a (presumably) live open-ended straight draw with a decent flush possibility. There is also some chance that neither of the lows will get there, so he has some scoop potential. There is also the chance that he might back into something like a high pair or two pair that can win high anyway. True, it didn't work out in this case, but how many hands have you seen where a pair of sixes or Ace-high takes half? Happens all the time.
Yes, this hand can be trouble, but only if he gets married to it. He doesn't have to stay 'til the river if the other guys start jamming on fifth and sixth streets and he doesn't improve.
Ok ok In retrospect I don't think I should have jammed on 4th into the 2 low boards. However whoever said that they would lay the hand down when they could call and close the action on forth is fishing it up pretty hard. Also I am aware that Ray Zee considers 3 to a big straight flush a very playable hand.... and I mean come on fold that for a limp you are out of your mind. I must confess that when I was making this play I did remember the exact quote from the book that High unsuited straight draws are weak but when they develope they turn into "strong jamming type hands" and I figured well I'm 3 stuided with the draw lets jam. I'm still not sure did Ray mean when they develop into a 4 straight or a 5 straight. :)
You never said you could close the action, but even if you could, you are playing a weak draw for half the pot. Closing the action on 4th st is ok, but when both lows chach good, you should fold on 5th street. You are now playing for half the pot, with hand which will win less than 1/3 of the time.
It kind of reminds me of a line in Super/System.
When the pot was over, he asked David [Sklansky] how he would've played the hand. David said "I really don't know, I've never played a hand like THAT!"
While this is a hand I might play, I certainly wouldn't play it from early position without a raise. You don't say from what position you played it from. In high low, you just should not be playing these kinds of hands unless you have a good chance of stealing. It really is THAT simple.
Playing or folding on 4th street isn't that big a deal, but I honestly think that you misplayed *every* street, except the river.
- Andrew
But you like the raise on the river with big two pair? And you don't agree with Ray Zee that 3 big cards to a straight flush is a playable holding?
KQT in fact has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ.
Sorry about that, you're right. They both have LOUSY chances of making a straight.
- Andrew
Recently I was playing in a game of 2-10 stud Hi/Lo. After the river card I bet with no pair attempting to get half the pot. I was called by two players and the first showed a 6 low and the other play turned his cards over and threw them toward the dealer. I showed Ace high and the dealer is splitting up the pot. The player who threw his cards in says turn my cards over if he doesnt have a pair. The dealer had not mucked the cards so the floor had the dealer turn the hand over.
Fortunately I still won the hand. The next hand I commented that had I lost the hand the dealer would never have gotten another tip as long as I live. The dealer turned to me and said, "A mistake was made...Now shut up."
How would any or all of you have felt about a) the mistake or b) the dealer's subsequent treatment of the player?
"How would any or all of you have felt about a) the mistake or b) the dealer's subsequent treatment of the player?"
a. No big deal. Dealers make mistakes. I like people. I like dealers. I don't make disparaging remarks to them, even when they screw up. I tip them when I win a pot and when I leave the table as a big winner. I smile at them when appropriate. I think dealers like me. Usually if you like someone, they like you back. Usually if you respect someone, they respect you back.
b. I don't encounter disrespect from others. I don't think I would like to be treated disrespectfully.
Matt - From what you have written, the dealer has not treated you with respect. It's pretty difficult to establish or re-establish rapport when someone does not respect you.
Of the several things you can do at this point, I think your best choice is to behave as though the incident did not take place. Try to somehow behave in the future in a manner so as to gain the respect of others, if their respect matters to you. (From what you have written, I think it does.)
Just my opinion.
Buzz
The list of dealers I don't tip @ The Mirage is getting longer - just exactly for the incidence you describe - Dealers have a job - when they do it properly, they get tipped. When they talk back or don't pay attention, or can't read the board they DON'T get tipped. Isn't a tip for 'service'? Talking back to one who provides one's livlihood is not smart.
I was playing in a stud game at the mirage recently when a dealer "mouthed off" to a player (not me) who was a regular. I guess the problem is getting worse.
Pat
The six low only called? :^)
I had a look at my local card rooms rules, and I didn't see anything covering that period of time between when a player releases his hand and when it hits the muck. The one time I can remember someone saying, "hey, can I see what I threw away," after throwing his hand in, the dealer touched his hand to the muck before turning it over. It's my opinion that the player's hand should have been dead. Card rooms will sometimes make rulings in favor of people who might not have been aware of a rule so that they won't feel that they are being taken advantage of. I think that this was that kind of ruling.
The dealer turned the other player's hand over at the direction of the floor. The dealer had a situation he didn't know how to handle, so he called the floor over. This is what he's supposed to do. He should be encouraged to do this. The floor, not the dealer, almost cost you half the pot. I don't think you have any reason to begrudge the dealer. And I don't think your decision whether or not to tip the dealer in the future should be based on the outcome of the hand. If the dealer had made an error which gave a pot you shouldn't have won, would you now be tipping him then?
So don't tip that floorperson any more. :^)
Your behavior after the hand was no better than the dealer's, and, well, you started it. Telling someone you won't tip him again is distinctly confrontational. Now, he shouldn't have retorted, and he certainly shouldn't have told you to shut up, but we've all had those days. If I were you, I just might apologize.
The entire circumstance doesnt come up if the deal had properly mucked the players hand when it was thrown into the middle of the table. The dealer didnt and that was what I was upset with the dealer about.
As far as my comment after the hand was over, I was simply making it clear that dealer had made a huge mistake. Had the dealer simply said after turning over the player's hand, "hey, I blew it. Sorry about that and I am glad it didnt cost you the pot," I wouldnt have said a word.
I play in a home game where quite a bit of Omaha 8 or better is played and I'm wondering what the basic requirements are for coming in with a hand are. I play 5-10 hold'em fairly competently and I think that my knowledge of hold'em (and lack of understanding of Omaha) is really hurting me in this game. I basically play the hands that contain two cards that I would consider good in hold'em (like having a pair or A K as two of your 4 cards). Or cards that can make a good low like A2 or A3 as two of my cards.
Now in the game I play, pretty much everyone limps in before the flop, even if there is a raise, and most people go way to far with there hands. (these are not casino poker players).
I've started to notice that it often takes the nuts to win so I'm starting to be more selective of the hands that I play. I'm playing Axs so that I can make the nut flush and I'm not too worried about the low because it takes the nut low to win and that is split a lot of the time between two players.
So what kinds of hands do I need to limp in with before the flop and what do I want to raise with? I don't want to throw anymore money away in this game chasing the second best hand. Any suggestions?
Also, what are the best opening hands in O8? AA23 two suits?
Rob
Rob:
As Jack has said before me, you really need to get Ray Zee's book, "High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players." It is simply the Omaha/8 book to master if you play and will continue to play this game for money. The game knowledge packed in this excellent book will equip you to play with the best in the game.
You can conveniently order this book in many ways including from the Two Plus Two publishing commpany.
Good luck!
I am an experienced Hold Em and Omaha High player going through the process of learning Omaha 8 or better. After reading Ray Zee's excellent book and getting some playing experience I have a few questions I would greatly appreciate help from forum members with. I was unsure as to whether premium Omaha hands should be raised in early postion in loose games where raising tends to inhibit callers who would usually limp with substandard values and make subsequent mistakes throughout the hand? Is the preflop loss on EV by not raising overcome by errors made by the limpers throughout the hand? In late postion when there are many callers in front of you what sort of hands are worth a raise? Would four high cards suited up be worth a raise for value or a big pair with connectors. What about a dry ace deuce with a suited ace? Another area where i was unsure of correct play concerned little blind play ? what sort of hands are worth coming in for a partial bet with several callers in front? would any 23 be playable? or 3 card high hands? Any help posters to the forum could give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Richard
Richard - "Would four high cards suited up be worth a raise for value or a big pair with connectors."
In my opinion, no, "four high cards suited up" is not worth a pre-flop raise (unless you are randomly raising pre-flop with any playable hand).
Try this: Choose any "four high cards suited up" you like. Take them out of a regular poker deck. Then just deal out flop after flop of the rest of the cards. I'll bet you won't see very many playable flops, probably about one in four.
Now ask yourself if you want to raise when three times out of four you'll be folding the hand after the flop, and the other one time out of four when you do hit a flop you like, the rest of the table will be already wary of you.
What it boils down to is this: If you miss on the flop your raise has cost you an extra bet. If you hit on the flop, your raise will make it more difficult to collect from your opponents on the turn and the river.
Although you can bluff it out some times, you'll go broke if you try bluffing it out very much in Omaha high/low. Why? Because it's hard to bluff an opponent who has the nuts or a good draw to the nuts.
Omaha is a drawing game. You're always on a draw pre-flop, and you're usually still on a draw post-flop. That all having been noted, I think you should sometimes raise pre-flop. Others undoubtably will disagree with me here, but I think the reasons for raising pre-flop depend somewhat on your opponents and are mainly tactical and intimidational, not because you have a good hand.
For example, suppose you have a dream hand like AA23 double suited. Raise before the flop and (1) your opponents will think you have all or some of that hand, (2) you'll chase away the very hands you want to continue playing against you, and (3) your opponents will be wary of you the rest of the hand. Is that what you want?
"What about a dry ace deuce with a suited ace?"
Probably the best two-card combination in Omaha high/low. However, remember that a four card hand has six such combinations. Even if you count the suited ace-deuce as two good combinations instead of just one, the strength of the hand also depends on the other two cards. For example, a hand like As2s9h9c seems mediocre, even though it has As2s and a pair of nines. Play it with a favorable flop like 6-7-8 and you'll be praying for there not to be an ace or a deuce on the turn or the river. When there isn't, you'll be quartered about one third of the time (in a full game).
"Another area where i was unsure of correct play concerned little blind play ? what sort of hands are worth coming in for a partial bet with several callers in front? would any 23 be playable? or 3 card high hands?"
You're out of position for all future bets when you play the little blind. Forget the amount you already posted; that's not yours anymore. You should have a hand good enough to compensate for your poor position.
Just my opinion. You asked. Hope it helps.
Buzz
there is always alot of trouble deciding whether to raise or not. in om/8 hands run closer so you can get away with less raising. but remember this. when you forgo a raise early in any game that as you say chases out most limpers, you give up alot more than you may realize. what you give up is alot of the equity you would have from the blind money in the pot. and most of all you lose the good chance that everyone folds but the blinds and then you get to play the hand against bad hands and have good position instead of playing a hand against a bigger field out of position with little knowledge of their likely hands.
Sorry Ray, but I have one little problem with your post. In low limit O/8 games is a preflop raise from early position going to limit the field to just you and two random blind hands? I don't think so, at least not in my opinion. In my experience a preflop raise from early position limits the field from 6-8 players to maybe 4-6 (in a ten handed game).
Having said that, I raise four big cards suited up because I like these hands (even though I agree with what Buzz says in his post about missing the flop) and it gives the added benefit of disguising your raises on great low/multi-way hands (AA23 type raises). In my opinion I think a hand such as KQJT double suited or KQQJ is worth a raise, but this is not a play I make consistently. By not raising these hands you get a lot of dead money in the pot by people who are playing cheesy low hands like 2467 (and people at low limits do play these hands), so when that high flop comes and hits you with a sledgehammer you've got yourself some nice free money.
- Mark Dodd
i was answering his post which said in the game he plays a prefolp raise limits the limpers. he didnt imply it limits them to 4 to 6. and for profitable events to happen they dont need to occur every time as sometimes just once in a while may be enough.
Sorry Ray, I was pretty tired when I wrote that so I must have missed that specific point. For some reason I thought LL O/8 and instantly thought of the yahoos I play with regularly. A raise means almost nothing to most of the players at the table. They come to play and that means they try to find a reason to play every hand. 6789 is a monster hand for a couple of these guys (in their opinions), I've seen them raise it preflop.
and in those games a preflop raise is only really to get more money in with a high value hand. but remember that position is important as it may not help drive people out but it saves you money or makes you some by seeing the action before it gets to you. still you will do much better by not building pots as often the high cards and pushing the good low type hands with 2 ways working.
Yah, in this game I usually only raise for value. Like you say I have found that position can save you and make you money. Another thing in your book that I've noticed is that it is better to be first or last rather than in the middle. Last preferably, then first and then in the middle. Getting trapped is the worst.
Would you mind giving a few examples of hands you would raise for value preflop in a loose game like this. Assume you are on the button, the game is 10 handed and 6 people have limped. If you raise you are sure the big blind will call. I think some examples would be:
AA23
AAK2
A234
AK23
AKQ2
But I would also raise hands like:
AAKK
KKQQ
AKQJ
KQJT
Are these raises wrong?
I'd appreciate some comments, and examples of any less obvious raising hands. I think that your advice on this subject could help my game.
you could raise with all the above and then some under the conditions you say. still the high hands do better on cheap flops as its hard to proceed often enough. with many players in, the extra low card in a hand is much more important. also high hands that only really make straights tend to tie often and get outdrawn alot as people playing against you are always drawing to beat you with a hand that has many outs.
Mark - Great posts with great responses from Ray Zee!
"But I would also raise hands like: AAKK KKQQ AKQJ KQJT Are these raises wrong? "
I think so.
KKQQ seems the best of the lot. The hand has fine scoop potential.
Yet, out of the 17296 possible flops, you really only like 1158 of them.
You’re probably stuck drawing to another 2824 flops.
You’re probably folding another 13308 flops.
Converting to 100:
You really like 7 flops out of every 100 (flopped quads, a boat, or a straight).
You’re still drawing to 16 flops out of every 100 (with trip kings, trip queens, or a JTX straight draw.
You’re folding (if you’re wise) the other 77 flops out of every 100 to any bet.
Assuming my figures are correct (no guarantee there, but they check) how do you show a profit by raising pre-flop with KKQQ?
Buzz
I'll e-mail you my 80 line, 4 column table.
Pat I think your opponent should have folded on 3. street and raised maybe on 6. street. Your play looks fine to me, I would have played the same way you did.
Regards Anders
I think your opponent had a choice here. I think she should have folded the 4's with a 10 showing if there were any other higher cards on board on 3rd street. It is tough to fold if you (opponent) has a pair in the hole and top up-card. In this case, she was correct in calling a bring-in of $2. Her 4's were live and if she paired her 10 she would appear to have high pair and definitely a scare card. You know the dangers of pairing the door card, I am sure. When she got trips, she should have raised. She had the best hand at that time and missed getting more money in the pot. If you reraised, she would have had a tough decision to make. Her not raising (1) let you in to possibly beat her--trip 4's are a fast playing hand even against 1 or 2 people (2) lost money by not raising--you would have called at least once. I suspect you would have figured her for trips when she raised your ace, but it would have gotten her 1 bet and if you folded, she would take the pot immediately. It might even have been a decent bluff in a 10/20 game. Check raising usually does not work against a novice (right Swenson?)
Your calling to the end, I believe, was correct unless she showed a card higher than your Queens and you figured her for better than queens up.
Get back to AC.
I'll be in AC this weekend. I had the same thoughts you had regarding her misplay. Having some restraint, I didnt tell her how she misplayed.
Also, she had to call a raise by me on third, so she called with a pair of fours in a raised pot. I frankly had no idea where she stood other than a vague feeling that I might have been in trouble. She was a new player to the table so I had no read on her.
BTW in this same game I played with another woman who not only got drunk during the game, even when she was sober she capped every raise on third with a three flush! It was quite a game.
Pat
I'll look for that game this weekend. I'll be there too. I'll find you. Hope you have a good $$$ weekend.
My question in this post is do you consider it acceptiable to lay down a big pair on forth st. when a player pairs his low doorcard and bets and you feel you may be getting jammed by a 4 low. I was playing 8-16 stud 8 a player limped with an 8, another raised with a 7 I made it 16 to go with Q's with a dead Jack the bring in called it cold with a duce, the 8 folded the 7 called. The guy makes open 7's and bets and I'm looking at 26 behind me. Who I know from experience jams hard on 4th I've seen this guy play pairs before so I just laid the hand down. My reasoning is if he has pair with the Ace I'm only a small fav If he has trips i'm dead plus since the brining called the re-reaise cold he must have 4 to a low so I'm probaby only drawing to half. Of course the other side to the argument is that many players feel compelled to bet out their paired doorcard esp if they stared with 3 to a good low. Its hard to say. I like the fold except for the fact that the pot was 3 bet on third so its getting pretty juicy. What do the experts think expert laydown or weak fish play??? Coments apreciated.
I'd have to know the likely hands of the 7 when he raised on 3rd street. Would have have raised with something like 742? Or would it only be something like 7Ax suited, or 765 suited, or AA7? If the latter, then your fold is probably the better play, given the likely 4-low behind you. If he would have raised on 3rd with any 3 low cards, then you probably should consider raising. By raising, you will charge more to a likely worse hand, and maybe force out the low behind you (in those cases when his 4th card actually paired him rather than giving him a 4-card low).
However, 7 stud hi-lo is not the game where I am most experienced. So, it's possible I'm making a mistake here. If Zee says I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Go ahead an lay it down. While the pot *may* look big, you have to figure that you are playing for about %60 of the pot (the 4 low will get there about 80% of the time). I'd continue with aces, or with two pair.
- Andrew
fish never lay down hands, that's why they're fish.
i wouldnt know what to do in this situation as i wouldnt raise a limper and raiser with two queens and a dead jack. id fold. i wouldnt call on 4th as too often you will be looking at trips or two higher pair and be almost drawing dead for half the pot. your hand is terrible here. you are in between and open low pair and someone who most certainly has four great low cards or three low cards and a pair.
Thats why I folded the hand on 4th street. I didn't raise a limper I re raised a 7 that raised. I tried to make it 3 bets to the field and 2.5 bets to the bring in. Is that a bad play with Queens with a dead jack?
HIGH POCKET PAIRS DONT have TWO-WAY POTENTIAL SO SHUN THEM IN STUD/8. (EXCEPTION is when you are playing short handed.) playing the babies, low hands that can go two-ways is a must in this game, sixes and lower preferably. GOOD fold on fourth street, as you like to know where you are at in this game at all times, you are talking about getting jammed from both sides, costing maybe six to ten big bets to the river with a dead high hand.........
So, you've gotten yourself jammed in with the cinch low on the flop and you know you're going to be quartered. Fold right? Should there be any other considerations before you fold. Is it a losing play to stay until the end?
You know you're quartered? Well, how many players are in right now? If it's 4 or more, you're OK to stay.
Do you have redraws to another low? If your low is A2 with 348 on the board, do you have a 5, 6, or 7? If so, and an A or 2 hits, you might get all the low now. If you don't have reasonably good backup cards, then be more inclined to fold now, as you may be drawing for 1/4 and being freerolled at the same time.
Do you have any high potential? Like a backdoor nut flush? Or a 2-outer to a higher full? These can add a good bit of equity, more than you might expect.
How much money went in preflop? If it was capped 7-ways preflop, that's 28 bets. 1/4 of that is 7 small bets. If it's capped to the river with you and 2 others who are quartering you, you'll lose 1/4 of 20 small bets (4 small bets on the flop plus 8 big bets on the turn and river), or 5 small bets. This still leaves you with a 2 small bet profit as compared to folding now. Count the bets and do the math.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am mostly a hold 'em player, but have occassionally played some 1-5 stud in the casino. I've read Seven Stud for Advanced Players and have found it has helped me a great deal in my nightly college game (low stakes pot limit) due to its high ante structure. How do I adjust to the casino bring-in structure? I find that I am constantly drawn out at this game; for example, at college, i would raise with an Ace up and a buried pair of 8's if none are out...in the casino, this eliminated no one and seems to be a wasted bet. I hope to someday have the bankroll to play 15-30 or higher stud, but since I can't yet afford it, what are your recommendations for adjusting strategy in this game? Will my $250 bankroll force me to play like a rock while I wait to get a real job??? God, I hope not...advice, examples, and experiences appreciated in advance
Jeff
Easy, general rule is to play good starting cards. No risk (i.e ante) so do not play mediocore hands. To really do well, you will have to evaluate the game and the players. In the no ante game it is important to not make a mistake on 3rd street by playing crappy cards. I usually like to play strong cards fast and if I have a good 2-way hand in good position (i.e I know how many players I will have) I may sit back and trap. Unfortunately you will throw away some winning hands, don't worry about it. Since you will not be too many hands, make apoint to study how the others play their hands. Count the amount of money in the pot as an exercise to not get bored. Patience brings success in the no ante low limit games.
Raising with a pair of 8's with an ace is not always right in 1-5. Recognize that this hand must be played heads up, and your raise is a semi bluff. The players are so unaware that a semibluff is not the correct play as there is little chance of a fold.
You must have the patience to play only good starting hands. Your best bet is to move up to 5-10. The game is only slightly more difficult,but if you read the Green Book you should do well.
Good Luck! Pat
I am a college student like you, and started at 1-5 stud. If there is no ante, you should not make any moves. You should wait for a high pair, bet three to five dollars on third street, and five the rest of the way and watch the money roll in. You minimize your variance by not playing too many hands and the players can't stop paying you off. I built a 4000 dollar roll in less than a year playing very very straightforward against the low limit chumps. Good luck
Very good advice. I play some $1-5 stud and alot of $1-5/10 stud hi/lo with no ante, only low card bring in for $1.
Sleep till you get a monster starting hand then make em pay till the river.
in all poker you need to play like a rock. most people dont know how tight a rock really plays. if you cant play tight give up now. part of your problem is that you dont play enough to judge what really is happening. but i suspect that you play too loose, and when in a casino even though the people are far more stupid than those you normally play against they are actually alot more experienced. with a 250 bankroll without ever adding to it you are a big favorite to lose it all even if you are a good player.
Do you mean play tight-passive? Why not play tight-aggressive? I thought the key to poker was to make them pay for every card they get?
Jeff,
I am principally a stud player. I remember reading in one of Mason Malmuth's "Poker Essays" books regarding the difference between low-limit stud and medium limit stud, which I happen to agree with based upon my experience. Real 7-card stud doesn't exist until you are at the $15-$30 level or higher.
At $15-$30 you can play stud more in line with the way it should be played, i.e., you can raise or check-raise to get players out, and it will work. When the bet is $15 and you make it $30, those marginal drawing hands are going to drop.
Below $15-$30 (and believe me, I've seen this even at $10-$20), you are playing a game that looks like 7-stud but plays very differently. It becomes a trapping game. You only play strong hands, and usually wait til 5th street to put your raise in (I say usually - of course it depends upon the immediate situation - cards out and players in the pot).
Patience, live cards, knowledge of your opponents, knowing pot odds and to a lesser extent, high cards are the solution in low limit 7CS.
If it's action you want, play 2/4 no foldem holdem. You will get pleanty of action and you will thrill as you see everyone's money go down the hole in the table into the house bucket. The rake is just that. If you are patient and play like a rock with a bluff or semi-bluff here and there,7CS will show you a nice profit. In a 5/10 7CS game you should be able to make $5-15/hr. Now 15/hr is excellent. People who are looking to earn 50/hr in a 5/10 game can expect to loose at least that much about as often as they win. Of course you will have the "big" night when Bob the manaic plays, but that is the exception.
When Zee says "like a rock" he means it.
I want to thank everyone for their responses. I am taking a casino trip over my Thanksgiving break and will definitely keep all of your advice in mind. If all goes well, maybe I will be able to try 5-10 next time out. Talk to you all soon
I have to agree with the rest. Don't confuse playing tight with playing like a rock. A rock is tight-passive. It's not incorrect to raise with 88A. You need to get head-up with that hand to have any chance at all. Since there is no ante to steal, you almost always steal in late position. A raise in early position on third street can do a lot to thin the field. If you get called, know who you are playing against. You are likely a dog. The more players in the pot, the more likely you will get drawn out on. Be aware of the number and types of players in the pot. Don't push a weak hand against many callers. See you at the tables.
Sure 88 A is great heads up But I always thought that this kind of hand would do quite well 5-6 handed assuming your cards are all live and you are agasint pair hainds smaller than aces. Can't you raise 3rd st for value if you know eveyone is going to call. I claim that as long is you know your hnad will win more than one time in 6 and you are playing six handed on 3rd that you should want to put as many chips in the pot with this positive expectation hand.
Seven-card stud is a great game with one major problem: it cannot (in it's traditional form) be played at no-limit. If it could, then it would now be the world championship game instead of holdem because back in 1971 (when the choice was made) holdem had less than 1% of the market, whereas 7cs had about 70%. Since Benny Binion's aim in running the WSOP was to attract spectators, the most popular game (7cs) would have been the logical choice, way ahead of a game which very few played or understood and which is a lot less interesting to watch and commentate than stud.
If the no-limit version of stud (which I discovered a couple of years ago and called mississippi) had been invented first, then conventional seven-card stud would probably never have been invented, since it is in effect simply a slower, less exciting way of playing mississippi. Even if mississippi had been invented say fifty or sixty years ago it's status as the no-limit version of the most popular game (7cs)would probably have ensured that it rather than holdem would have been chosen as the world championship game: but then, I would have missed out on inventing it and also on the pleasure of discussing the question here......
7cs is unsuitable for NL play for two reasons: it's a round too long and it has too many live hole-cards: neither of these factors make a big difference at limit betting (apart from slowing down the game) but at PL it costs twice as much to call five bets as it does to call four, and as a result you can play PL 7cs for years without seeing a called bet in every round because players run out of money: in effect at PL stud the fifth round is superfluous anyway, since "play" in poker consists of betting, and there is almost never enough money available to bet five times.
The third hole-card in 7cs distorts hand values because straights flushes and trips can never normally be the nuts at the end, since the lowest possible nut hand with an unpaired board is usually at least quads. Again, that doesn't matter much with limit betting but it is another reason that 7cs is not suitable for NL and for most players, less than ideal for PL.
Mississippi has neither of these problems: the fourth and fifth cards are dealt together instead of one at a time, shortening the game to four rounds and inserting a multi-card draw, the central invention of poker. The seventh card is dealt face up instead of down, so hand values remain consistent for the duration of the hand.
These changes make 7cs a faster more exciting game with any betting form, but particularly at PL and NL. There is a lot more action and better pot-odds, since the added value of getting two cards instead of one for your opening call ensures that there are more active players in every round of play.
As test of these arguments try playing PL 7cs and PL mississpi in rotation for a few hours and see which you prefer. It's a great head-to-head game so you don't need to gather the clans to do it. Pot limit Mississippi is now on the BARGE playlist, and is probably being played at MARGE too (if Lou Kreiger has his way). Pokerspot.com is looking at introducing NL mississippi tournaments online at some stage and a number of tournaments are considering adding it to their playlists.
David,
Have you developed any odds tables for Mississippi yet?
Hullo Bruce, I missed your post before for some reason or I would have replied earlier. There are some stats at http://www.geocities.com/mississippi_seven, mainly comparing it with other games. You can also work up some interesting stuff if you have a programmable simulator like Wilsons turbo 7cs, by turning off all fourth street play. It's the last-card down limit-betting version of the game, but the charts are interesting.
Thanks for your interest
David Zanetti.
Hello,
I am looking for a book on razz...do you have any?
Thank you..
Tim
I do. But there aint many of them. It's called "Sklansky on Razz" I paid 2.95 for it. It's in mint condition (which is also where I bought it). I've heard they also incorporated this material into one of his later books, so check with Conjelco or GBC.
Sklansky on Razz is not published on its own any more, but it is included in Sklansky on Poker, which is available through 2+2.
I am planning a 4 or 5 day trip to Las Vegas in December and would like to play $10-20 up to $20-$40 stud. I play in Chicago, and my regular game is either $10-$20 or $15-$30 stud. Occasionally I have played $20-$40, but never higher than that. I believe that I am one of the better stud players in my regular cardroom (at the level I mentioned), but I am wondering how I would fare against the regulars in Vegas.
I have done a little research on the web and it looks like the Bellagio and the Mirage are the only two rooms who spread the limits I am interested in.
My questions are: 1) Which is the better cardroom to play in and why? 2) When would I find the best games (day of week)? 3) Is there a week during the month of December that would be better than others (more tourists)?
Any further advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
I am having a problem reaching my ceiling of wins when it comes to stud and high low. I cuurently play 4-8 up to 8-16 stud and hl on planet poker.com. I started out with a hundred dollars and worked my way up to a thousand in about two weeks in 4-8 stud and hl . I then tried to take my 1,00 and go up to 8-16. Every time I do this this I just seem to get bad beats over and over. Example I'll start with trips ang get run down on the river, or have a K flush beat by an Ace flush.My losses don't take place because I change my play or am not good enough to handle the players, I just seem to get run down over and over. What happens is I will lose all of my winnings down to around a 100, then I'll lick my wounds go back to 4-8 ang again get back up to a thousand and try again. This pattern has occured at least 5 times over the past couple of months. ( start at 100, get up to a 1,000, lose down to a hundred, back up to a 1,00). What usually happens is I loose 600-700 in one session of 8-16. What I am wondering is the laws of averages catching up to me. Because I win 5 or 6 days in a row on 4-8 to get me back to a thousand am I just ready to be beaten when I go play 8-16. Should I set a limit of loss when I move up, even if the game is good and I am one of the better players. I know I need to move up in stakes if I want to make the max amount of money. Please help!!!!
When you reach $1000, cash out. Have them send you the money. Continue 4 more times until you have amassed $5,000 in cash, then you can think about moving up to the 8/16 game. You need a bigger bankroll. Now once the 1st 5 grand is in your pocket, then continue playing Planet Poker 4/8 until you reach 5,000 in funny money. Then and only then should you move up to 8/16. You will have earned some decent money. You willhave gained experience and confidence and finally you will have a decent bankroll to begin at the 8/16 level.
Play two-way low hands for awhile, starting with 3-babies, forsake all one way high-hands(except pocket aces with an [8 or lower] or rolled up trips. You find some sanity for awhile playing strictly low in these low limit stud/8 games. HIGH HANDS JUST DOESNT HAVE ANY EQUITY IN THESE LOW-LIMIT STUD/8 GAMES WHERE 5 OR MORE ARE CALLING ALL THE TIME.
I don't play on the internet, and I don't play H/L; but I've had similar experiences and have come to the conclusion that you must expect to be drawn out on as much as half the time. When you move up, do you overplay your hands? Always enter the pot with the lead. Be sure your cards are live so that you may do a little drawing out, too. Don't overplay pairs in multi-way pots. Your chances of getting drawn out on are too big. I can't really tell you what you're doing wrong. I can only tell you what I do wrong. I go on tilt and overplay my Pairs. Good luck.
Seems to me like you're beating the crap outta the 4-8 game yet you still want to move up? If I were beating the 4-8 for a thou a week, I don't know if I could leave. But assuming you must move up, I'd follow ratso's advice.
home game, dealer antes $3 5 till 5th st. 10 thereafter,7CS/8. Most pots are jammed and players will stay to the river with most anything. I play almost strictly for low and am not doing as well as I think I should against these extremely loose players. All advice would be appreciated.
I find no true general rule. You still have to play good starting cards. A little looser when you are the dealer of course. You will have to evaluate the players and your position. I would play more hands early for the minimum bet and tighten up if I did not improve. I would play agressively when I was pretty sure I had the best hand.
In the real world, I don't think I've ever met anyone who really played too tight.
Is there a bring-in in this game, or just an ante? If there's no bring-in, the pots are smaller to start with, which usually suggests tighter play on 3rd street. Also, lots of people coming in loosely also suggests tighter play, as you'll need to make a bigger hand to win on average.
Play the top 15% or so of your starting hands, keeping in mind that since the game is loose and multiway, your top 15% will be adjusted more towards good drawing hands and less towards good made hands than if the game were being played by mostly tight players.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
my guess is you play too loose. is playing for low only mean you play 2,5,7 in jammed pots with some of the cards you need out on board. or do you fold this hand. do you really folds two kings in jammed pots with an ace on board, or do you stick around for a while. many believe playing only for low is the secret to this game. the real secret is----wait i have to run now.
Is this a game full of total fish and losers who are there playing bingo, or are there actually decent players who know whats going on?
If you are regularly getting 4-way action to the river, then you should generally play loose on 3rd street, and tight on 4th street. This lets you do two things.
1) It makes it look like you are giving a lot of action because you'll be entering 30-50% of the pots. You'll also be doing a lot of raising with the best of it when you choose to go on to 4th and 5th street.
2) It allows you to take maximum advantage of your opponents poor play. If you're not in the pot when they call when they brick out on 4th AND 5th street, then it won't be you making their money.
If you are looking for more hands to play try:
low connected pairs (443, 556, 665)
hidden pairs with a low door card
AKx, where x is 2-5, and your low/pair cards are live
Remember, with these marginal hands you have to improve greatly on 4th street to continue, hitting trips, 3 straight lows, having your opponents hit bad on 4th, etc...
Remember, in wild games your profit comes more from the mistakes your opponents make after 3rd street, not before.
- Andrew
Andrew the post said the pots were jammed. does your advice still hold true?
It's much more important to know when the jamming is happening. When I think of a jammed stud hi/lo game, I think that the jamming doesn't get heavy till 4th or 5th street usually. At least that's what happens when the pots I play in get jammed.
I've never seen a game where it is regularly re-raised before 4th. That's just my experience. Since this is stud, a raise 3rd street hand costs only one small bet to play, not too expensive, especially when you consider the implied odds that 4-way big bet action will get you.
Like I said in my post, it really depends on whether your opponents are playing bingo, or whether they are sophistocated players.
Playing as loose as I suggest against bingo players is very appropriate.
- Andrew
"the real secret is----" Read Ray's book.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
with pictures and stuff?
Dino Where's Pebbles,
Buy a book Zee's if you can read small letters.
Paul
Thanks a lot guys!
I play a 7-stud home game. Spread limit $2-$10 anytime, you can bet $20 on the river. Five of the players will increase the maximum river bet to $50 if they are the only ones left in the hand.
I am thinking of joining them. How should I alter my play? I'm thinking such a large spread between low and high bets ($2 to $50) will take a pot-limit strategy rather than limit. Comments?
Draw to every hand you can if you know it's the best draw. I would guess that made hands (1 or 2 pairs) are almost worthless in this game unless you can often catch someone bluffing on the river. But if you can confidently call a $50 bet on the river in a 2-10 spread game with a lone pair of aces you have alot bigger balls than I.
Two questions-How big is your bankroll, and how well can you read the other players? If you have a big enough bankroll you should value bet as much as possible, esp. in heads up pots. Value betting is easier if you can tell if anyone hit on the river. Also if there are people who like to call to "keep you honest" this is the time to punish them. You should rarely raise on sixth st. save your raises for the end. Also such a large bet is a license to steal, esp. by raising on the river, I would try to develop a rep as a bluffer so folks will have to call me on the end. Slowplaying also becomes more correct, maybe even checking a great hanD on 6th st. to let folks catch enough to have to call you on the river.
Well, it's been a long time since I've posted a hand, but here it goes.
8 handed 60-120 stud game.
3rd street:
Me: (Ah5h) 2h. I bring it in for $20.
Solid player on my left (SP): Makes it $60 with the 3s showing.
Loose aggressive goose (LAG): Makes it $120 with the 6s.
It's folded around to me and I call the $120. There was one other heart out and all my pair cards are live.
SP calls the $120.
4th street:
Me: (Ah5h) 2h2c
SP: (xx) 3s6d
LAG: (xx) 6s9s
I check and it gets checked around.
5th street:
Me: (Ah5h) 2h2c5c
SP: (xx) 3s6d6h
LAG: (xx) 6s9sJd
SP bets $120, LAG calls, I raise to $240, SP thinks for a bit and folds (which is what I expected/hoped he'd do), LAG calls my raise.
6th street:
Me: (Ah5h) 2h2c5cTd
LAG: (xx)6s9sJd4c
I bet $120, he calls.
7th street:
I catch the Ad and check. He hesitates for what seemed like 15 seconds or so, then bets $120. I raise it to $240. He calls and my aces up are good.
Questions:
What did each of the other players have?
What would you have done differently? Based on the way it turned out it seems I played it as good as I could have, but I feel I make a couple mistakes in the hand. I hate to let the results of a hand make me think I played it well. I don't know.
I would have checked and folded on the turn, but that's what makes you better at this girl's game than me.
Seriously, I think an argument could be made for folding. Sure, you knew you could blow SP off the hand, but what made you think LAG didn't have you beat? He probably did until you sucked out on the river.
Of course, what do I know? I usually start out with nothing...(inside joke).
Nobody bet the turn, I assume you meant 5th street. You damn Hold'em players don't understand anything about stud. ;)
Seriously. I agree that maybe I should have done that. I also wondered if I should have played the hand at all.
ALSO stupid damn holdem players who call high stake stud a "girls game" cant get there terminolgy correct from turn to street... HEY grab a rack of $20 chips and park your arrogant ass at a 60/120 or higher talk think that way we'll put your high horse in the soup line... I guess I got a little carried away.
Actually we use $10 chips but either way. ;)
Makes the pots look much bigger than they should.
Get in line. There's a lot of people in front of you who want to put me in the soup line. But it would be better for you if I stay in action.
You stud players are so high-strung.
Actually, due to the higher long run variance in stud as opposed to holdem it takes more balls to play stud. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!!
Pat
I like your re-raise to get SP out of the game. He probably had you beat at that point. It was also a gutsy move to re-raise LAG on the river. Way to induce a bluff! Your two pair probably had LAG beat, but the Ace on the end sealed your hand. Of course, had SP called, as he probably should have, you would have been a dog. There is certainly a case for folding this hand on fourth street.
George,
Me: (Ah5h) 2h2c by checking it looks like your slow-playing trips especially when you raise on 5th street. That's what got the 6's out IMO and then your heads up against a high pair or low pair with straight possibilities who is hoping to catch trips to beat you or back into a gut shot straight. Ends up catching two pair and loses to you with A's up. I think you played it well.
Paul
what are you doing going in with ace five, to a solid player?
Aaron, you wouldnt play a live three flush with an ace here?
My only thought on the hand is that LAG was not bluffing. Why would he think he could bluff a guy who paired his door card? He probably had two pair higher than tens but lower that Aces.
Pat
George your too young to have CRS syndrome so deliver!!
ukw
I put in the post that my hand was good. I made aces up and I have no idea what he had because he never showed (2 pair I'd guess though).
"What did each of the other players have?"
I thought you knew when you asked this Question!!!
Paul
Heh. If I show down my hand after betting and my opponent goes to muck their cards, that's fine by me. I'll be the last one to ask to see a hand. ;)
But the reason I asked that question is to see what others thought the hands could be, I had no idea what they were.
This is a hand that happened in the 60-120 stud game last night that I won't soon forget.
8 handed...
3rd street:
Extremely loose player (ELP) in seat 2 brings in for $20 with (xx)2d. It's folded around to me in the 5 seat and I make it $60 with (JhJc)7h. Loose but sensible player (LBSP) in seat 6 calls with the 6d showing, aggressive player (AP) in seat 7 raises it to $120 with the 9d showing (the 9 was the high card on board), ELP calls, I reraise to $180, LBSP calls, AP calls, ELP calls.
4th street:
ELP: (xx) 2dKd
Me: (JhJc) 7h4d
LBSP: (xx) 6d9h
AP: (xx) 9d2c
ELP bets $60, everyone calls.
5th street:
ELP: (xx) 2dKdJd
Me: (JhJc) 7h4dAc
LBSP: (xx) 6d9h9s
AP: (xx) 9d2c4d
LBSP checks, AP checks, ELP bets $120, I call, LBSP calls, AP folds.
6th street:
ELP: (xx) 2dKdJdTs
Me: (JhJc) 7h4dAcTc
LBSP: (xx) 6d9h9s8h
LBSP checks, ELP bets $120, I call, LBSP calls.
River:
LBSP checks, ELP checks, I catch a blank and bet $120. I did this expecting LBSP to fold since he's gotta put me on a decent hand that can beat the 9's up which is what I thought he had, and the fact that if he calls, he's facing an overcall by ELP. I also thought ELP couldn't call my bet because I figured she didn't have much.
So anyway, LBSP thinks for about 10-15 and folds what turned out to be 2 pair (9's and 6's), then ELP sits and thinks for an even longer time and calls. I show down the pocket jacks and they are good.
Any comments are welcome...
I think you played this well, and LBSP played very poorly. He should have known that R.. er.. ELP would have bet if she could beat his two pair. The pot was large enough to justify a call. His only concern should have been you.
I made a similar mistake a little while ago, when I threw away Kings up on the river when Randy bet into me. I knew he had AA to start, and I though he made two pair. Another player called him and he showed his one pair to take the pot. I did't give him credit for being smart enough to bluff.
What did I learn? If I'm playing stud, just call.
I agree that he should have probably should have called but it's definitely not an easy call to make. I just thought it was funny when ELP called I hardly wanted to show my hand. She most likely called with a hand that couldn't even beat the open nines (unless she had tens).
On a side note, the irony in this hand is that the player that folded on the river was talking just a few minutes before this hand about his theory that "if you call on 6th street you gotta call on 7th street".
How come you're playing so much stud all of a sudden?
ELP might have made two pair. I don't know what she could have called all those raises with on 3rd except a pair. She obviously didn't start with a flush draw.
I told you before about spreading my money around the casino. It wouldn't be fair to leave it all in the same game. Also, Mason says Caro is all wet about stud being a game of luck, so I'm trying to learn. Besides, I really get off on the insults and whining.
On the river, in a three person pot, you can sometimes successfully bluff if you put a hand that probably beats you between you and a likely drawing hand. It can be difficult for the player in the middle to call because he will think that you probably have him beat, and if not the player behind him can easily beat him. So I like your play ion the river.
However, I disagree with much of the rest of the hand. I would have not made it $180 on third street. This would have allowed me more opportunity to raise later in the hand, especially on fifth street, in an attempt to knock other players out; or perhaps just fold and not lose as much in case the cards have broken badly. Your kicker is a very poor straight flush card and I don't think it is in your best interest to build a big pot.
In this case, the extra raise probably helped George win the pot. He let them know he could beat 9's, and therefore AP folded when he got no help, and LBSP was afraid to call the river.
Of course George is so lucky, it probably wouldn't have mattered what he did. See the post below. :o)
While the third street re-raise my be questionable, I'm most disappointed with his failure to re-raise on fourth street. He had a golden opportunity there to clear the field and put himself heads up against ELP who likely held an inferior hand. Instead, he put himself in the position where he had to bluff on the river. Jacks may have been the best hand on third street and fourth street. He should have been betting to thin the field then.
I agree that that is the problem with the hand. Instead of betting/raising to eliminate opponents, he bets/raises in an attempt to build the pot. This is not the right hand for that.
I guarantee you the field was not going anywhere on 4th street. Not the way this game was being played. I was gonna raise her on 5th street to try to do that but the other player in the hand made an open pair and I decided against it after this.
The main reason I made it $180 on 3rd street was to try to get the guy on my left to fold and get 3 way action instead of 4 way action. Unfortunately it didn't work.
George,
I'm a little late with this one because I forgot about the other poker forum. Mason is correct about the third street play. At least he is with regards to 15-30. I have fruitlessly tried to thin the competetion in the same manner you did on this hand. I have found, at least at mid limits, that the better strategy and less frustrating I might also asdd, is to call a reraise on third and try for a thinning rais on a bigger street. It works. I love your bet on the river. It is one done by an aware player.
vince
I think that you played the hand OK. I dont mind the reraise on third street, although you probably would be better off not reraising, and then going to knock people out on fifth, or just seeing how the hand played out. In a multiway pot I dont think you have a great hand. Maybe you are better off calling with the intent of raising on fifth, as your reraise on third merely builds a bigger pot, and gives better odds to your opposition.
LBSP must be a somewhat weak player, as his hand is not terrible, although somewhat weak, as he was getitng a fairly decent pot. What would you have done if he bet on the river and you had to call? You probably would have folded. Since you only called on fifth and sixth, he should have known that you did not have two pair, so he should have raised on sixth street because he was the favorite and he sets up a play on seventh by leading right out. I think he played the hand weakly. He had to figure you for a high pair in the hole, as you would not have played on fifth with a busted draw,and you would have raised if the ace made you two pair.
Of course, I am only a 5-10 player so what do I know!?
Pat
I have to agree with much of your analysis. The LBSP played the hand weakly (because he had a weak hand that is hard to play). He never really knows where his hand stands as compared to the other hands and that alone made his river decision a tough one.
As for the raise on 3rd street I agree that it was questionable but my goal was to try to drive out the player on my left to make it 3 handed instead of 4. Obviously this did not work.
Paradise, Omaha/8 4-8, 6 people. My hand: (54)3 rainbow. I bring in $2, 7 on the left raise to $4. K, Q, 8, 3 folds. Pot is $9.
1. Is my reraise mandatory?
2. I called. Next card: he (..)7A off suit, me (54)3J. He bet $4. Pot is $15. Should I call?
Zbych,
One heck of a strange Omaha hand.
Obviously this isn't Omaha8, but stud/8.
I would fold. You need 2 more cards now to make a hand, so it will cost you 4 plus 8, most likely. Plus, he just caught an A, so he either has a four-card low, or a pair of As. You're coming from way behind now to scoop this one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I recently played a low limit hand at the Trop in AC and am wondering if I made the statistically correct move on third street. I had AKA. A player in seat seven bet with xxK. I put him on kings. I thought that since I had his other King, his chances of improving to trips was diminished; but my chances of improving to Aces Up were also diminished as my kicker king was dead. I bet my Aces to the river where I improved to trip aces to beat his Kings up. Was I the statistical favorite in this hand?
Without knowing anything else I would have to say--Absolutely!!!
No question at all here. The Ace is so unique. I would play the Aces. His chance of trip Kings is exactly the same as your getting trip Aces. Unfortunately your having the King is actually to his benefit since the king is almost useless to you. Sounds incorrect, but it is true. I love having aces against kings. Think about it. Would you fold if you had a pair of 4's and you knew you were against a pair of aces? Of course you would. Aces beat 4's and Kings-see, no difference. In fact the 4's might be better since there might be a better chance of a straight
Question: You said that the King bet on third street in seat seven. Were you after him? What did you do?
You definitely were the favorite--infact you were in probably the best situation you could have aside from being rolled!
Pat
yes you were a favorite. if the pot is heads up you are a considerable favorite, although probably not as good as if your kicker was completely live. this is because you are taking away 1 of his outs but you are lodin two of yours.
this question becomes interesting in a multiway pot. there you usually have to improve to at least two pair to win. you decreased chances of improving may sometimes make the hand unprofitable, although i doubt it as long as your A is live.
scott
if he has kings and you have one of them that helps you with the aces. see, he has to catch up and you dont so having one of his outs helps you more than it hurts you. you are about a 7 to 3 favorite to beat him if he has the kings here. the downside of having his king is that if he has a big pair he is more likely to have some other pair than before so that it is tougher to read him and you lose more when he hits trips, as you cant see them. also he is more likely to have almost nothing so you get little action from him, or folds on fouth street as his hand is dead.
Isn't that contrary to what the Green Book says about you having the King. If he has 2 Kings and you get one of his kings, then that card is pretty useless to you. Of course it makes you feel better that his trip chances are diminished. I see your latter point, but I am not happy to get "his" card since it "takes up space" for the one I am looking for and diminishes my chance at 2 pair which I might need if I have a couple callers. I think a lot has to do with how the other person beta his hand and the knowledge of the opponent.
Lat weekend in a loose game 5/10 7CS, I have pocket Aces with a Queen showing. I am under the gun and just limp. Only 1 caller, then a King raises. I reraise and we get head up. Neither of gets visible help, but he bets, and I call. This continues till the river. I check the river unimproved aces. He bets. I make a crying call with bare aces expect to loose but win. Figure that one out. How often does that happen. Guess he figured me for Queens.
I got 1 of his kings on the river
Ratso, Was the river king the reason you decided to call, or not?
I think you definately missed a couple of bets here ratso. You've got your A's completely hidden and he's most likely got a pair of K's ? assuming the boards were blank enough to warrant it, I'd have popped him when the big bet. but that's just me and I'm a holdem guy.
You didn't check the river, as he was first to act. But anyway I would have probably raised him on 5th or 6th street (more likely on 6th), and then bet the river unless you had reason to believe you were behind. But I'm more one that likes to be in control of the hand, not the one calling (except in cases where you're catching a bluffer).
1) Eazy....I would have called because the pot had enough money in it. I probably said something like, "Well, I'll have to pay you off."
2) You are probably correct
3) You are also probably correct here too. I was too conservative. next time, I'll push the bet and he'll have 2 pr.
By a large margin.
- Andrew
I didn't see anyone mentioning a raise on 3rd street- was that just assumed by everyone, or would I have been too aggressive (i would DEFINATELY have raised the K's bet, partially BECAUSE i have his kicker which doesn't help me much, other than blocking him)...
My raise drove out the 3 player
I have played 1-5 at Trop AC. Generally, I have found that betting hard (in the absence of a threatening board or any raise backs) is a profitable strategy. You destroy the implied odds of flush draws and tend to be heads up quickly. If it is bet to you on the river, you will be surpised how often, a raise will induce a fold. This assumes you a playing against fish or passive players.
I agree as I think back. I really do not like the 1-5 games at the Trop even though I do very well. They are too slow and boring
Thebest 1-5 game I ever played in was at the Sands in AC. Many callers, few folders, people calling on the river with nothing. Any moderately tight play will make you a winner. Unfortuneately this was approximately 8-9 months ago when I first started playing poker,adn I dont know if it is still this good.
Pat
I agree. The Sands is a lot of action. I sat in on a 1-5 game that had 5 way action to the river about half the time. I wons a lot for a 1-5 game. I was waiting for the 5/10/15/20 game which I did not get into. (is it a requirement that you have to chain smoke to get into that game?).
I find a lot of the Trop dealers play at Sands. One problem at the Sands is that I find the dealers too friendly with some of the players, and the dealers are sometimes very slow. Oh yea, the neighborhood is a bit sketchy.
5-10 stud at the Trop in AC. Typical weak lineup. I get rolled 9's and call on third in late position with a 4 way pot.
On fourth I get a blank- 99/94. My opposition has xx/6s10s, xx/4cKd, xx/JdQd. The King leads and the JdQd raises. I am in last position with my nines and what appear to be two draws, both of whom limped in on third. There was no raise on third. I read the two draws as players who would have both stayed in for the raise but might fold for a second raise. The K was a player who would likely pay off all the way even if he knew I had rolled nines. So, I decided to raise, and the two draws folded.
Was this the right move?? Was the risk of getting drawn out on worth it to slowplay and try to build a bigger pot? The pot was not big at the time I raised, as there were no raises on third, so I figured that I was better off if they both folded.
It seemed like, as always, there are two competing interests here; building a big pot versus increasing my chances to win. With only one draw against me I probably, but not definitely, would only have called.
If they were tough players, how should I have played it? All comments are appreciated. P.S. the K called the whole way and showed his hand as only two kings!! I guess he though I was bluffing.
Two questions-How big is your bankroll, and how live where the draws? If you have a big bankroll or have been winning you can just call (you're going to win or lose a big pot), but if your roll is small or you've been losing, then going for the surer money I think is best, also did you put the QJ hand on diamonds or a straight or two pair, if he's drawing to a straight he's basically got a gutshot, and you want him in, but if you put him on diamonds then the question is how live were they, if very live the raise is probably better, esp. if that makes it three bets to the spades, one draw against you is OK, but two is more troublesome, the fact that they folded means they didn't have hands as good as you thought or are better players than you thought, because most weak players would call a tie-in raise with a four flush, esp. since your hand looks like a med. two pair, but what was your table image? Also was it two bets or three bets to the spades hand?
i would have usually raised on third. the main reason to slowplay rolled up on 3rd is to make sure you don't just steal the antes. but you already have someone playing with you. and if the bring in is as loose as you say you have two people playing with you. you have to try to win big pots with monsters.
also, if you would only raise there with a wired pair higher than Js (which is just my hunch about how you would play in that situation), then you become too predictable to beat good players. after one limper i am raising most hands i play if the table is not very loose passive. in this spot that includes split 9's, wired pairs 8's or bigger, rolled up, live flush draws live straight draws, 2 live overcards with a live two flush, etc. if the game is very loose passive than i will sometimes limp with the draws and the weaker pair hands. i would usually still raise the good hands especially rolled up because i expect to be paid off.
on 4th, you 3 bet and the raiser folded? that is very strange. i can't imagine cards that make his play even close to correct. in any case, once you have two people betting and raising for you, it's ok to slow play. also, the fact that the pot is small means slowplaying is more likely the right play because you are risking less by giving cheaper cards to draws.
scott
5-10 stud at the Trop in AC. Typical weak lineup. I get rolled 9's
.
Curious here, smoking or not smoking?
======
I decided to raise, and the two draws folded.
I figure the other sread you for trips (reasonable assumption, eh?). I woul;d have played the same way. If they are going to draw out on you, make them pay. You are getting good implied odds. If they fold, great if not then you'll still probably win. Most players have what they represent in 5/10 and I suspect the other players realized the draw to their flush/straight was anot in their best interest.
Hope I do not bump into you at the Trop at the same table.
======= If they were tough players, how should I have played it?
If you wanted to move them out you did the correct thing. I know some good players who would have slow played till 6th street, but a good opponent would put you on trips with that junk showing and staying for 2 raises. I would have done what you did even against better players.
It was in the smoking room.It was a weak lineup, even for the Trop. I actually moved there from a much tougher game in the non-smoking room with a bunch of regulars.
Pat
Trip nines is not a small set. You probably did the right thing by playing it fast, but I don't think that taking a risk to win a big pot would have been incorrect either.
Joel's post brings up a question I've had for a long time: assuming that you have a bankroll that can withstand large swings and emotions that can withstand being drawn out on over and over, why is it preferable to drive people out when you're a favorite against each person individually (and are, of course, getting even money from each on your bets)?
I know the probability calculation method of adding together each of the opponent's probability of beating you - and, yes, you will win much more often if you drive people out - but aren't you getting more than adequately compensated by the even money return from each person?
Also, I think that Joel's post is the first I've read where anyone has said that under different personal circumstances (bankroll and recent winning/losing) one should consider taking different action concerning whether to drive people out or not.
Thanks for any comments.
Regards, Connie
4-8 O/8 game last night with a half-kill. I pick up Ac-Qc-Qh-Td in middle position. Half-kill not in effect on this hand, I limp in for the $4. Six of us take the flop of Jc-Tc-2h. Checked to me, I bet with my nut club draw & gutshot for Broadway. Three callers.
Turn card is Kd. Check, check, I of course bet. Guy to my immediate left raises. First limper goes all-in for $10 of the $16, other limpers folds. I reraise, and LHO caps it. I figured that if a blank comes, I split with LHO. He obviously has Broadway as well, and possibly 2-pair or a set to go with it. I did not get the read on the all-in player that he also had the str8, but he quite possibly also had a set, or why is he calling, all-in or not? I've got 8 clean outs for the scoop, including the possibility of the miracle Kc hitting the river for who knows what kind of action? The Bad Beat jackpot was over $13K.
Well, the ten pairs on the river. I check to the guy on my left, he bets, and I make the crying call. Guy shows me A-Q-J-T. As it turns out, he had 4 outs to make a full house, but only wins the side pot, as all-in had KK for the over-full. The Kc was live which would have resulted in the jackpot, but that's only a sidebar.
I believe I was completely correct in maxing out this action on the turn, as I had the best chance to scoop the pot. With 3 of us contesting the pot, I had to think that there were more small clubs lurking about than there were cards to pair the board. For sure if all 3 of us were putting $$ into the river: but what about the fact that the 3rd player was all-in. In retrospect, I wasn't really free-rolling either player. I had the current best hand, but they did have outs to knock me off.
Anyone handle this situation any differently?
Dunc - After the turn there are only ten cards that might hurt you and one of them, the two of clubs makes your flush so that you won't be splitting the pot, although if it makes a boat for an opponent you won't be winning it either. Eight other cards make you the nuts flush (although three of them might also make a straight flush for an opponent). The twenty six other cards probably get you a split.
IMHO you played the hand just right. You just got out drawn. It happens.
Buzz
you had the best of it, but you weren't freerollig. one way you can tell you weren't freerolling is you lost the pot.
scott
So there is a No Limit (delt 5 card one w/discard to 4 card preflop) Omaha 8 game in my Town. The minimum buy-in is 100 but the usual is 500.
The action around town is so loose that I'm thinking about checking this game out.
Anybody had experience with this type of game? Seems like the No Limit form of Omaha is a shut out game.
CV
I see that I mistyped the discard rule: Everyone gets 5 cards preflop and then all players discard one card before the flop so all players that stay in to see the flop only keep their 4 best cards.
CV
Sounds like a fun game to me.I would tighten up on my starting requirements because with the discard before the flop everyone will be starting with a better hand than usual.
For some reason I feel that I would be much happier playing No Limit Texas Hold'em with these guys. With the action around this town though I think I should like this game better. Must be my lack of O8 experience.
CV
crazy omaha.
scott
This is a great game if the opponents are loose. With 5 cards pick 4, you will make the nuts or a draw to the nuts even more often than regular Omaha. If they will bet/call with hands that are neither the nuts nor draws to the nuts, you have a goldmine. Just be sure that you're freerolling before you put in a lot of money with less than top full before the river. It is easy to be tied when you have the nut straight and/or nut low, so you need redraws before your hand is worth a lot of action.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I decided to post here rather than the Internet forum because this is really about the game, not the internet accident.
3 handed low limit Omaha (High only), a game I wish I could play.
I have 8993 in the big blind, call to me, I check.
Flop is 5 8 A rainbow. All check.
Turn is a 2 (rainbow). LB bets, and, trying to fold, I click the Call button by mistake. (Mistake #1?)
River is a J, so the board is 5 8 A 2 J.
LB checks, I check. He shows 664T, and I win with a pair of nines.
LB has been a agressive player. Looking back on the play, I think I should bet the river, even though the call on the turn was an accident (Mistake #2?).
My more general question is: what constitutes a hand with some value in short handed Omaha? I generally think of it like a full holdem game, i.e., top pair is a playable hand, so perhaps the pair of nines actually is not that bad. Still, I would have mucked it on the turn without the click mistake.
I'm actually not sure what questions I have here, any thoughts on short handed Omaha or this hand would be appreciated.
I don't care to get into details about this hand (even though I found it to be an interesting hand), but 75-150 stud game saturday night, 4 different people had flushes in the same hand, 1 in each suit. Luckily, I had the only ace high flush. Something I'll probably never see again in my life.
I wont get into details about this on. BUT in a certain 20/40 stud/8 I saw " 3 bicycles in one hand talk about jamming. Unfortunately the the poor chap with only the bicycle got reamed twice with the two six-high straights the other opponents had to go with the their bicycles. I suppose the colluding phobics at PARADISE and POKER SPOT will some think someone sold their software program to this casino.
.
I forgot to proof my thread before I posted it, so cut. some slack 3 Bet. Besides me and Jack/Daniels like to enjoy these threads after our session at the stud/8 tables...good education and entertainment.
This is somewhat of a theoretical question I guess, but it's an actual hand that happened to me in the 75-150 stud game on Saturday.
8 handed:
I'm the bringin with (As4s)4c. I bring in for $25. Everyone folds except the person on my right (a fair to good tight aggressive player) who raises it to $75 with (xx)Qh. Except there's one catch. Many times when he's dealt his first 2 cards he lifts them up and I can easily see them. And this is one of those time I saw his cards. So I knew he had (6h7s) Qh.
The question now is how do I play using this information...I decide to reraise to $150 and he calls.
4th street:
Him: (6h7s)QhJs
Me: (As4s)4c5h
He bets $75, I raise to $150, he calls.
5th street:
Him: (6h7s)QhJsTs
Me: (As4s)4c5hKh
He bets $150, I call. (I'm just letting him bluff for now, even though I'm not really that far ahead anyway. I thought about raising again but I decided to wait to see how 6th street turned out.)
6th street:
Him: (6h7s)QhJsTs9s
Me: (As4s)4c5hKhJc
He bets $150, I call. He caught about the worst card imaginable, but I'm still ahead (but he's got to be a significant favorite to win the hand, I would guess).
River:
He bets in the dark. I know he has nothing going in to the river. I look at my river card and it's a blank, so all I have is the pair of 4's I started with. I believe I have to at least call obviously but I believe raising is also a viable option. After thinking a while I call and my pair of 4's are good. (It brought about quite a bit of discussion at the table. Heheh.)
But anyway, knowing his hole cards, would you play the hand any differently?
I think you have to raise (you got very lucky here), if he catches any pair you lose, the question to ask yourself is this-if I raise will he throw away a hand better than mine-since you hold only 4's there are a lot of cards he can catch that will beat you if you call, but that he would throw away for a raise, plus you raised earlier in the hand, so he's got to put you on something much better than what you hold.
I have recently gone about trying to add Omaha 8 to my repoitoire of games. One particular area of play that i am having trouble coming to grips with is play out of the blinds. In an unraised pot with several callers what hands are playable in the little blind? Would a dry deuce trey be worthwhile? what about three card high hands or dry big pairs like queens or jacks? How should your starting standards be modified in the big blind in a raised pot with many callers ahead? What about a shorthanded steal situation? I would be extremely interested in the views of forum members on these issues and any help they could provide.
Richard
There is some traffic in the archives about Omaha/8 blind play. The structure matters a lot for the little blind. If you are only posting 1/3 of the the big blind, you have to tighten up considerably.
One hand to stay from: middle straight cards.
I'm posting this under Fred The Shark to add to his comments, not to disagree with him.
"Would a dry deuce trey be worthwhile?"
No. A dry 2-3 is no good.
"what about three card high hands or dry big pairs like queens or jacks?"
Depends on your opponents and the mood of the game. In the game you have described, I think not. Three card high hands only have two worthwhile two-card combos. In general you want your cards working together to give more than just two two-card combos. A pair of jacks is not very good because you don't hit the flop very much, and you may be stuck when you hit a jack on the flop. (You tend to end up splitting with low if the other cards are all smaller than a jack. If there is a card bigger than a jack, you're often against a higher set. The pay-off isn't usually commensurate with the risk of playing a dry pair of jacks.) Queens are a little better, but still not worth it.
"How should your starting standards be modified in the big blind in a raised pot with many callers ahead?"
Play as tight as you can while still projecting a tough image. Easier said than done. Perhaps you should look for another game if your blind is getting raised too frequently. Tend to waste two bets (by re-raising) to protect your tough image.
"What about a shorthanded steal situation?"
Depends, at least partly, on the tenacity of your opponent who has posted the blind. Worth a try or two.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Oops. Three two card combos.
Still not enough.
Home game-Omaha-8 no fold`em--10 handed--no rake-- 6 or more always see flop no matter what the bets are. Bets are $1.00 to $4.00 any time. I am a winner most of the time on other games. I can`t beat this game. HOW DO U BEAT THIS GAME?
Please advise. PS I read and studyed Zee`s book, No help there.
Coyote
I suggest you re-read Ray's book. An other good investment I've found is Wilson's Turbo Omaha-8 program. I can blast through Thousands of hands and quickly get a feel if I'm playing too loose and going too far.
Which brings me to a question. Do you often get jammed in on the end, and show down second best? This happened to me a lot when I was learning how to play the game. Also, think about the draws that didn't come but would not have been good even if they did.
CV
If Zee's book didn't help, I think you failed to really study and comprehend it.
In the game you're describing, just playing for the nuts should be sufficient to win. I suspect that you're calling with less than the nuts, and drawing to less than the nuts, and doing so much too often.
Also, what percentage of your hands do you see the flop with? If it's more than 20%, including the blinds, it's too many.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thankz for the info fellows. I have found when U have the nuts U will get Quartered a great % of the time. If all players are about equal ability it turns out to be just show down most of the time. don`t know who invented this game, but I think it is piss poor game at low limits.
Coyote.
When the opponents are playing no foldem, this game is a great money-making machine. It is boring also, but very profitable in terms of bets/hour. I used to play this in Chicago, 3-6 limit, with a rake of $5/pot + $1/pot jackpot + $1/pot (almost mandatory) tip. I averaged something like 2-3 big bets/hour despite this rake.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You have to play two-way hands more often which can be boring waiting for them in this type of no foldem. "A,2 needs back up with suited babies or even A suited, HIGH pocket pairs with A,2 OR even A,2,3,K double suited, or hands that protect you from getting conterfeited. NOTICE I didnt mention median cards which are sure losers in this type of game. PLAY FOR THE BRASS NUTS.
This is not a game, this is a dream.
All that should be required to beat this game is to be solid before the flop, and play the nuts.
Short term results always swing in wild games ... you may be just in a bad streak.
Offensively, you play to get either one of two kinds of big winners. (1) scoopers, and (2) whipsaws.
Defensively, you play to avoid being second best, especially so as to avoid being caught in a whipsaw.
The hands in between, the hands where you split small or medium pots, the hands where no one bets and you end up a winner (or a loser) are just time killers waiting for the big one.
Kind of like fishing for marlin. Put your bait out and wait for a strike.
I agree that it can be boring, unless you are a fisherman at heart.
Buzz
Buzz-- I agree with U--U said it all about that game.
G'day Lads!
I was varying my venues of games this weekend I played in AC Caesar's Palaces 1-5 7cs.
I'm seated in seat #6 and buy-in for $150.
I'm playing like a rock as per Ray Zee's characterization which means I've been dealt 20 hands and have been caught as the blind once.
A couple of players are practically playing every hand while player#7 lights up a smoke every 5th deal.
So player#7 winds down and is all in and wins...
OK I'm still passive and watching...
A few rounds later player#7 is all in again... This time his luck runs out.
hmm
Player #7 buys in for 20 big George Ws. and next hand he some how wins the pot... Takes the red chips and puts them in his pocket...
I fold my next hand and goto the Floor manager and ask to be seated in another game complaining about player#7s action.
Surely I was in my right avoid playing against ALL IN characters...
Comments?