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I wouldn't play this hand.
You have a dead Ace and no back-door flush draw. Your low will be poor at best and a few of your low cards are out. This hand is probably only going to win ½ the pot even if it catches real well in one direction. Aside from the play of Beer (probably bad), your hand doesn't develop at all until you're smacked in the face with two perfect cards on 6th and 7th street. You were also fortunate that your opponents all caught horrible cards. I recommend reading Ray Zee's book (more than once).
. WHERE DO YOU PIGEONS PLAY AT ... THE FOX WOULD . LIKE TO VISIT YOUR COOP ... HE..HE.. HEE
thanks Buzz,
also looking down the page i say in so many words that 2 aces without a low card or two other big ones cannot stand much action before the flop. easy fold.
I hate a bare AA. Give me AAQ7 and I am not even going to see the flop unless it is very cheap, I have good position, and there are many callers in most pots. If one ace is suited, I will play it, but I sometimes I think even that is too loose. Maybe someday I will learn to fold AAQ7 with one flush draw. I already fold it to a raise. Splitting with low and being forced to call bets that are either low or a better high than AAA sucks.
I'd much rather have AQQ7. I will play that hand if I have a suited Ace and not feel like I am taking the worst of it.
i agree but dont with the qq hand. why would you rather have qq than aa. the times you run into oversets will destroy you.
There aren’t many times when you’ll flop a full house with 2-3-4-5, and when you do, (1) it frequently turns out to be an expensive loser for high, and (2) there usually is someone with a better low sharing the pot with you.
Most of the value of 2-3-4-5 comes from it’s nut low and wheel potential, and in that case you really need an ace on the flop. I figure 2-3-4-5 hits a favorable flop (a full house, quads, three wheel cards including an ace or an ace plus another wheel card) about one hand out of six.
I tried to line up chips here (on my computer table) to figure out how 2-3-4-5 would do with a raise. It’s not exactly clear, but I think 2-3-4-5 does all right, even though there is a raise, (mainly because of the nut low or wheel aspect) - if you aren’t able to put your opponents on aces.
In this particular case, Feen had a remarkable read on his opponents and correctly put at least two of them on their actual hands. Without this read, it seems worthwhile to see the flop with 2-3-4-5. However with this read, aces available for the flop are not much in abundance, greatly diminishing his chances on the flop.
As it turned out, Feen would have (1) flopped a full house which (2) would have held up to (3) scoop the pot. Naturally he has misgivings about his tight play on this hand. However, once Feen puts two or three aces in the hands of his opponents, his chances, at least on paper, don’t look very good. Therefore, I think he made the correct odds-on play by folding.
I think the best you can do for yourself in Omaha/8 is (1) use your ability to read your opponents and put them on hands, (2) then play the odds and (3) bet (or fold) accordingly. Of course it doesn’t always work out. (If the odds are nineteen to one that something won’t happen, then one time out of twenty, it will).
If Feen didn't know anything about his opponents, and wasn't able to put them on their hands (correctly as it turns out), then seeing the flop as cheaply as possible makes total sense. However, it requires a higher skill level to play based on what you think your opponents have. Once you move up to that higher skill level, it seems foolish to regress to a lower level and play as though you have no idea of what your opponents are holding.
Just my opinion. :-)
Buzz
I really like 2345. I like it a lot. Even so, I don't call here. It looks like a short handed pot and 2 or 3 aces are pretty much known to be out of action. I could easily get quartered if I do get my Ace. If the initial raiser were a known maniac who will raise without an Ace, I might have to call. However, "good players who play too many hands" tend to actually have good cards for their raises. They tend to call too often, but raise on quality.
I sit down at a 5/10 game (Taj/AC), I don't know any of the players at the table. Most of my experience is at the 1-3 and 1-5 limits. I have played this limit (5/10) a few times. I am at the table a couple of minutes when the following happens. (suits did not really come into play in this hand}
xx/2 brings it in, I have q,9/q and raise. xx/k calls, xx/7 calls, bring in calls.
4th street: xx/k,6; xx/7,j; xx/2,4 I catch a blank. All check to me; I bet.
5th street: xx/k,6,6; xx/7,j,2; xx/2,4,4. I catch another blank. q,9,/q,5,7.
xx/k,6,6 checks and the other two follow with checks.
My cards are live with the exception of the 7. Even though I had been at the table for only some hands, I did get some info on the players in the hand. The xx/7,j,2 was somewhat drunk and something of a maniac it seemed. xx/2,4,4 called every time on 3rd for the few hands I was able to watch. Neither seemed to enthused about their cards when they checked. It was the xx/k,6,6 i was concerned about. But since he checked, I don't want to give the others a free card, but don't want to be check-raised either. I thought he might have started with a pocket pair and the King.
What do I do here?
Richard
Dear Richard There is an old rule in 7 card stud that when you get to fifth street with an unimproved big pair and you're against two players you've got a problem. But you aren't against two players, you are against three players and your opponents' board shows two open pairs, an over-card, a possible straight draw, and a probable flush draw. We do not know what Jack has got probably a buried pair. Not only should you not bet, you should check, take the free card and start thinking about mucking your hand. Depending on the card distribution on sixth street. The key to winning is not making money with your strong hands (what you don't have, you have an unimproved medium strength hand/remember the delta change or the amount of loss in winability between aces and queens is the same as between queens and fives) the long term winners are the ones who avoid situations where they are not significant favorites, which you are not and you have three big bets ahead of you. "Luck favors the prepared mind..PASCAL" Sincerely, DocAZ
BB A2cA3h. Nice start!? Raise before the flop w. seven callers. Flop comes 6c7cQh.Bet-raise-re-raise. Turn comes Jh.Two nut flush draws and uncounterfitable low draw. Five players still in. Bet and called by all. Last card 7s, making four sevens for one lucky player. What are the odds of neither sweeping nor halveing this pot?
Moot point:
You "Big Tuna" have a great hand for the river and in situations similar to this you don't "should not" be concerned with the odds. I would always call or bet the turn -- maybe even raise if I had enough players trapped in. Your hand in this situation is a long term money maker. If there are lots of tight or sound players in the pot, then there may be a shortage of low cards left, but the odds are still way in your favor. Even if I missed this hand five times in a row, I would go for broke the next time.
All fold to me. I'm in the small blind holding AKJ9 (J9 is suited). I would routinely raise with this hand in this spot. The problem is the guy in the big blind has been 3 betting me all night. I'm about 90% sure he will make it 3 bets. I call, he raises, I make 3 bets making it look like I have a big hand, he 4 bets me. The flop comes T 2 2 offsuit. I checked and folded.
Comments?
Berya - I don't think AKJ9 (suited jack or not) is a great hand, especially heads-up. You have no low draw and you still have to hit the flop to play for high.
"All fold to me. I'm in the small blind holding AKJ9 (J9 is suited). I would routinely raise with this hand in this spot."
I don't get it, unless you are trying to steal the big blind. Everyone else has folded. There really isn't a large percentage of flops that will hit this hand. I think you prefer a full table to play this hand. I don't think you should be betting this hand for value in this situation, because the value simply isn't there!
In this case it doesn't seem like you will be able to steal the big blind.
Against a different person sitting on your left in the big blind, you might say something like, "Just you and me?," and call the half bet. Against a maniac who is likely to raise, you might consider quietly folding before the flop. The reason is that with AKJ9, you won't like 75% to 80% of the possible flops and, looking ahead, what will you do then?
"...I make 3 bets making it look like I have a big hand, he 4 bets me.
(1) In my opinion you're sitting on the wrong side of this guy. (2) In my opinion the guy isn't bluffable. (3) Distasteful as it may seem, he may have your number. If so, you might somehow adjust your game strategy and tactics (or leave the table).
"The flop comes T 2 2 offsuit. I checked and folded."
Normally I think you would have a good bet in this situation because it's unlikely that your opponent will like this flop either, (although he could have trip deuces), and whoever bets first in these situations frequently wins. Against this macho lunatic, however, I think you made a good move.
I remember one time I was playing against a guy who seemed to be drinking heavily and also seemed to be playing poor hands very loosely and betting wildly. When I finally got into the action against him (with a mediocre hand - I just couldn't wait any longer), he didn't seem to show any adverse effects of the alcohol as he displayed the nuts both ways and scooped a huge pot.
Buzz
Oooops, I did not see the fact that all folded in my last post.
This changes everything. Now the raise is reasonable, though mainly to make it less clear that you usually have Axyz with at least one wheel card in xyz for such heads up raises.
Against a known mainiac, I guess it probably doesn't matter if you raise or not. You have good stuff, but no low. I'd like to see a cheap flop, but that's just me.
You don't want to raise with that junk. Even a suited Ace is not enough, (though I have no serious argument). You do not want to build a large pot here. In particular, you do not want to make the pot so big that back door lows have the correct odds to call. Save that raise for Omaha high.
As for the BB re-raise all night. That is fine by me. If my hand is good enough to raise, I want some moron helping me charge double admission, and if people fold after donationg a blind sized bet, thats cool too.
In a aggressive Omaha game (lots of jamming of pots) does it ever make sense to abandon a one way nut low draw hand on the turn?That is there are virtually no outs for high but the low draw is to the nuts (with a decent chance of getting quartered or worse).
It depends... If the game is agressive almost all the time, just figure your low draw is worth about 3/8ths of the pot and go from there to decide if you should call. Assuming no protection, you have 16 outs for 3/8ths of the pot. This is identical to having 6 outs for the whole thing. So, if the pot is offerring 6:1, you can call and expect to make a little money on the river. (since 6:1 == 36:6 and there are 42 cards remaining)
If there are additional factors that make you believe you are the only nut low draw, then figure you are drawing at 5 outs (rarely is it correct to totally belive your reads here and assume 4 outs). Now you need pot odds of about 7.5:1 If you are truly sure you are not alone in the low draw, you need 9.5:1.
Obviously, this all assumes you account for possible raises that have not yet been made, but might.
Hi everyone--
After airing my 1/5 stud blues several times, I've heard quite often "move up to 5/10, you'll do better." My general string of results at 1/5 is to break close to even most times, perhaps winning a stack or so, or to lose a couple of stacks some of the time, after doing something stupid like pushing a 2-pair hand too hard...I win in drops and lose in buckets.
That said, I usually seem to be the most sensible player at my 1/5 table. I don't play weak starting cards, hardly ever go chasing (but it does cost when I do), and it is frustrating to lose in these games to e.g. one guy who played literally every street of every hand for 4 straight hours and left up $400.
1. how much more skilled/harder are the medium limit games than the low limit games? 2. since I can't beat 1-5 consistently, why would I expect to beat 5/10?
Thanks...
5-10 at the major East Coast casinos is not very different than 1-5. In a typical 5-10 game, a lot of people limp in for the bring-in, and then fold easily to bets on fourth or fifth street. Hand selection alone is enough to beat this game. The rake is brutal in no-ante 1-5, less significant in 5-10, and almost not a factor in 10-20. 10-20 is a substantially different game, and I would caution you that aggressive play, steals, and steal defenses are important aspects of that game. But in 5-10 you should be fine. Just make sure you're adjusting when the game is loose or when you can't narrow the field.
Gorp,
You should use 1-5 as your training ground. Understand why you lose each session or win. Analyze your game and learn to read players, not so much that there is much to read, but being correct in a 4 way hand as to what each player has is great practice whether your in the hand or not. It is much more difficult to read 4 or 5 players on 5th street than it is 1 or 2 in higher limits. If you can get close to doing this at lower limits, move up because it will be invaluable at higher limits. But your probably already doing this so I probably am just shooting the breeze for you.
Paul
While we are on the subject of 5-10,I am going to vegas this week. Any word on any non-tight 5-10 games? From what I hear the games are VERY tight, especially compared to the East Coast. Any input is appreciated.
Pat
Pat,
Just play as you have learned and adjust when you get out there. The only games I played in were no ante's and they were tighter than here, but beatable with quality hands.
Good Luck Paul
Gorp,
I've had the same experience, but when I play in touraments, I regularly make it to final table or close thereto. This must mean that I am a fairly good player. I think, for me, the biggest problem with 1-5 is that you just can't make enough money. You can spend hours just to make five dollars an hour. You might even play better at 5-10 as you should be able to make ten dollars an hour and, thereby, not get frustrated or impatient. Still, ten dollars is not alot. Make sure you have the bankroll. You can still lose in buckets.
Ah 3h 5x 8x middle position. All fold to me, I call.
Button calls, sb raises, I call, button calls, so 3 players see the flop: 5h 7h 8x. I don't know the players.
sb bets, I call, button folds. I have 2nd nut low, 2 pair, nut flush draw, and I already fell hopeless.
Turn is a face card offsuit, sb bets, I call.
River is a nine offsuit. sb bets, I call.
sb turns over A246. He flopped the nut low and bottom straight, and I'm toast.
I don't know where to get away from the hand. I'm think I'm getting good enough odds to play all the way through, but it turns out I needed the full house or the flush, plus a 2 to scoop. There was always the chance, too, that he was betting a one way hand.
Fred - After the flop you want to see a two, a heart, a seven, or an eight to feel more secure. I make it 14 cards that will help you and 31 cards that will not. 31*14 + 14*13/2 = 525. There are thus 525 two card combinations (out of 990) that will improve your hand. Thus you are a favorite to improve. However, even without improvement you have a decent chance of scooping or at least splitting the pot.
There are eleven small bets in the pot when you are faced with calling the equivalent of two more small bets after the turn. Your chances of improving have dropped to 13 in 44, 0.295 to 1, but you're only paying 0.182 to 1 for your call (2/11 = 0.182). And you still might scoop or at least split the pot - even with no improvement.
On the river you have failed to improve your hand. Now, in the face of the continuous betting by the small blind it looks really bad for scooping, but you still might at least split the pot, plus if you don't call here you'll have people pushing you around for the rest of the session - so you call.
It was like that old song "Just one of those things." Even though you played the hand perfectly, you still needed some luck. You didn't have any on this hand.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Oops. "After the flop you want to see a two, a heart, a seven, or an eight"
I obviously meant "After the flop you want to see a two, a heart, a five, or an eight"
I did all my figuring for a five but then typed "seven" instead of "five." Sorry for the error, but it doesn't change anything in the reasoning.
Buzz
Nice analysis, Buzz, thanks.
I found a few more runner runners that help.
33 or AA fills me up.
A 6 followed by a 9 gives me high, and 6 with a 4 gives me a quarter.
sb bets, I call, button folds. I have 2nd nut low, 2 pair, nut flush draw, and I already fell hopeless.
I think I might just raise here. I think I have the best high and maybe the best low. If the button calls 2 bets cold, I slow WAY down.
... sb turns over A246. He flopped the nut low and bottom straight, and I'm toast. You know how unlucky that was? Now maybe this player always has A2 for his raise. If so, you were still unlucky. I'm glad I wasn't playing, I'd have lost another big bet. (or more if my opponent smooth called and check raised the turn.)
You had a good hand and a terrific flop, but sometimes that is just not enough.
This happened to me yesterdy at Grand Casino in Kinder, Louisiana. Any advice on how I could've played this better would be appreciated.
7 CS 1-5 low card brings it in for a dollar.
xx/2d is 2 seats from me and brings it in for a buck. Next 2 players call and I raise 3 with Ac 10d/Ad. Everyone folds, except the xx/2d who calls. I figure him for a high pair in the hole, 3 to the flush, or trip 2's. 4th street I get an As, he receives 2c. I bet 5, he calls. Now I figure him for 2 pair, 3 2's, or possibly 4 2's. On 5th street I get his deuce, he gets garbage. I bet 5, he calls. 6th street is garbage for both, I again bet 5, and he calls. We go to the river, and I get garbage. I still bet 5 and he calls. His river card turns out to be an 8h, which pairs up is 8 in the hole. Along with his deuce in the hole, he's 2's full of 8's vs. my 3 aces. What could I have possibly done to knock this guy out of the hand!?!? Or was I just the victim of another bad beat.
Thanks! p.s. Hellooooo ratso!
Apparently, there was nothing you could do to get him to fold. Well, if you had raised $5 on third street, that probably would have done the trick, but you also didn't want him to fold on third street. I'm a bit surprised that you got it to heads-up on third street in a game that small.
Put yourself in his shoes: if you had trips on fourth street, would you fold to a bet by a higher open pair? Most of the time, I'd raise. I don't fold trips without a very good reason, and most low-limit players won't fold trips even if they're beat on the board.
I don't think I'd even call it a bad beat. He played reasonably. Well, he should have raised on the end. He filled up, you didn't. Happens all the time. Get used to it. :^)
down here most of your passive types, either loose or tight tend to play 1-5 stud. since there is no ante you would be amazed how often I get my bring in back since nobody will play for even a dollar. mostly these are your "retires" who just want to get out of the house and eat a cheep meal. they are not there to win, rather not loose. So heads up for one raise is very easy to achieve.
Consider checking the river. Other than that, I think you played fine.
Why check the river? Even assuming the guy has 3 dueces, he only has 9 outs on the river. He will probably call with any 2 pair. Heck, in some games I've seen he might call with a pair of dueces.
Scott,
Without reading the other post the only way you could have gotten this guy out was with a gun. Pac
Oh, I feel your pain. I do not think you could have done anything differently to make him fold. If he knew you had trip Aces, and he should have by the way you bet, he should have folded. He did not which tells me he is a novice or a dope. In retrospect, you could have checked the river.
New players or the less experienced will not toss trips, ever. In a 15/30 game on labor Day weekend in AC, I raised from the beginning showing Qs,Qh:As. I had 4 callers. I got 10s and bet. Three callers. Next I get a Ks (3 high spaded). I check. All check except a newbie with lots of holiday money. He bets 30. I raise to 60. All fold but him. He pairs his 4th street card, a 5. I bet 30. He ponders a call. He either has 2 pair (high pr with 2 5's--most likely) or trip 5's. I have queens and have represented an ace high flush. He calls. The river brings me 2 pair, and he apparently gets nothing. He checks, and I bet. HE CALLS?? I loose. He says, "I was sure you had a flush". Yea, why did he call? He gave the dealer $5 tip. That is usually a good move, but the newbie just didn't get it. I have done that in games before and that is the 1st time I was called on th eriver with a hand less than a flush.
One of the most frustrating things about playing 1-5 is that one can only expect to win one big bet an hour on average. That means five dollars an hours. You might has well flip burgers. At least you may get some benefits as well.
What you should think about after losing with this hand is whether you are so upset that you should just quit before you go on tilt. Otherwise, bet agressively with trips until you are sure you are beat. Over the long hall you will win, especially heads up. But you can also expect to lose sometimes, too.
I believe Rockhard is correct, but if the table is right and you can control the players, the 1-5 can be very profitable. For example, a few nice tight passive players (calling stations) who are easy to read can yield well over $25/hr, but they must be willing to cash those Franklins. Additionally, you will have to make them feel comfortable at the table. I find I NEVER chide them when they make a bad call. I always congratulate them when they call me down and beat me when it was obvious to me that they should have folded and caught something on the river. I love when they change seats for no reason but "luck". Be patient if you have a passive tight crowd. help them to loosen up and let them have fun. I actually had a lady call me when it was obvious that I had the nuts just because she thought I was a nice guy. Thank you, dear. that helped me regain some of my losses from the 15/30. Oh yes, I almost always find myself trapping instead of raising to move people. When I raise in a 1-5 it is almost always to get money in the pot to tie people in. The full house draw is an easy one when you are getting 5 and 6 way action and the pot is giving 15:1 and above. I'll let them get their straights and flushes then raise almost apologitically on the end if I am in the right position. There is always a prick in the game whom everyone hates. When you trap that person and crush him, you become a hero, and now you are like Robin Hood.
Your opponent played correctly, as I see it. On fourth street, if my math is correct. there was 19 in the pot, and after your bet on fifth there was 24 in the pot. So he is getting almost 5-1 on his call on fifth and almost 7-1 on sixth. I am not sure of the odds but I believe that he is less than a 5-1 underdog.
The only things you could have done differently is to raise to 5 on third. I suspect that if you were in the same position you would have played it just as he did. It is a very TOUGH loss. I feel your pain!!
Pat
4-8 with 1/2 kill, very very loose game. 6-10 handed every pot. I see the flop maybe 20-25%.
ok I have A9s, 65c one before button and only 1 player has mucked. I usually wouldnt call but I'm getting way too good odds not too. Small blind raises. Damn, We see flop nine handed.
Flop; 8s,7s,Kh
I've got complete wrap around, nut flush draw. It's one bet to me, BB was bettor, no-one folded, I raise to see what happens and maybe buy the button. Button folds, SB 3 bets, I cap it.
Turn; Qc
50 small bets, I still have nothing but I have 19 outs albeit not all str8t cards are the nuts. I 'm thinking I need a few players out. It's checked to me, I bet, SB check raises, 2 players drop. I call praying for 9, 10, or Jack of spades.
River is 4s
Well I got nut high 3rd nut low. mid position guy bets 2 callers, 1 Raiser, I make it 3 bets, SB folds, bettor thinks I'm on low and caps it, all call.
The raiser on the river had a J high flush, bettor had K high flush, with A7low, 2 players had straights. I scoop as my low holds up too.
Is this a hand to play as agressive as I did? Most often I'll play it a little softer till I make something but with all the players in I thought it was the right time to gamble a little.
opinions welcomed.
Congratulations on taking down a monster. I am certainly no world class expert in O/8, but here is my take on the hand.
Nine players or not, I'm not sure I would call pre-flop. Yes, you have a nut spade draw, but your middle cards are crap, and your low draws are just as bad. Having said that, once you take the flop, it hits your hand just about as hard as you could hope for, barring some miracle like KsQs8s.
I would also raise for value when the SB comes out betting. I have to assume given the betting sequence that the SB flopped a set of Kings. If so, what the hell was he doing checking the turn? He must have had a very good read on you to go for the check-raise to protect his set, but I would have disappointed him and checked the turn. All you have at this point is still a big draw. As it turns out, giving the SB the chance to check-raise may have won you the scoop, as it is possible that one of the two folders laid down a hand that might have beaten your rough low. At the river, of course you raise as much as possible with the 2nd nut high. If someone took all the heat with 6s5s, give them the money. What are these guys with Jack-high and King-high flush draws doing? I thought the Edmonton players were bad chasing down weak flush draws. I guess there are others out there just as foolish. Thank your lucky stars. Cha-ching.
I think Badger once recommended playing any suited ace in a loose game like this, but I don't remember the post. In any case, this can't be that bad a hand to play late, you even have 2 pieces to a wheel.
It seems to me your reasoning in betting is ok ... it certainly worked out well. Agressive play is usually good!
You're asking if it's ok to raise with the nuts on the river? Are you kidding?
Although technically the straight flush could be out there....
I would try to see the river card more cheaply.
Incidentally, you had the FOURTH nut low.
This game sounds pretty soft to me! All that action on the end and no one had nut low?
The omaha game I play in is completely different. I wish I could play in yours!
I only count 12 outs to the nuts (not counting straight flushes). A flush card that pairs the board is likely no good. And someone will probably have the higher straight if you don't river the nut straight.
In my book this is worth a call but no where close to being worth a bet or a raise.
I really don't see any merit to gassing it on the turn. For all you know your low is no good and you are drawing for 1/2 the pot with one card to come. I would see the river card as cheaply as possible.
-SmoothB-
In this very loose game, your last raise smells like gambling to me. In such games, you non-nut straight draws are nearly worthless. Just what are you going to do if a T,9 or 6 falls? Your flushes are also more likely to die if the board pairs.
A similar draw, but with only 1 low card is so much better, but when you are drawing to straights and/or flushes, it is VERY hard to make the nuts AND not have to split with the low hand.
I would not even make the first raise, since I am not going to move anyone away from something like J9xx. If I could make sure lots of people would be facing 2 bets, I would raise, but in a loose game, that might be an error too.
The turn bet is not terrible. Nobody is going out. Be grateful for the free one. I'd estimate that you have 7 flush outs and 6 straight outs. Only 3 give you a scooper. This is, in my way of thinking, like having 8 outs. If you get 4 callers, you essentially break even BUT! what if someone else ties your straight... That now reduces that out to a "quarter-out" (down from a "half-out". To balance, you will win with a 6 or 9 once in awhile. All in all, it is a gamble that probably has little impact on your overall EV, but it is definitely not the kind of thing I would normally do.
RIVER:
I would cap it off here. If they have a SF, then so be it. I will say this, you are right about the weak game. The entire sequence at the river is terrible. To be honest, I did not think you had low outs, but then a card like a suuited 2 or 3 could make it happen. Certainly when you add in the chance at a low, your turn bet looks mighty good.
If you normally wait for the nuts before betting, your bets and raises were sound. Its an image thing. You appear wild and loose, yet you are really just cranking up the variance.
When the BB bets out and everyone calls, I think you should raise in the hopes that the BB reraises, putting pressure on the field. Hopefully the A-3 ,A-4 or 2-3 holders will fold, and you will only be up against an A-2 so that when you do hit your flush or your nut straights your low has a better chance (maybe a 4 comes on the turn giving you the nut straight, and duece on the river gives you a decent low, that wins since the a-3 folded on the flop).
This type of play is something I'm just now learning, so I may be off... but I think that anytime you have a marginal hand that is going to be close to even money on future bets (like a flush draw in holdem with 3-4 callers on the turn), you should bet/raise if the pressure you create could get someone to fold who is "stealing" your outs. Like getting an A-K out in hold'em so that your king high flush draw also has the king for an out.
Matt
when its heads up and i bet on the end, when my opponent picks his cards up and starts looking at them, what should i do? when i first started playing i bet on the end, my opponent picked up his cards, looked at them, threw them face down in the middle, then realized i wasnt doiing anything, reached out, picked up his cards, called, and won the hand.
so now when my opponent picks his cards up, i scoop my cards and hold them all face down in the 'waiting to muck' position and wait for the pot to be pushed to me.
just curious if anyone has anything to say about this ,tells, etc.
brad
If I am involved at showdown....I verbally declare by hand, flip it over and keep my fingers on it until the money is pushed my way or I clearly see it is beaten.
Tom
uh, i mean if i bet and my opponent is thinking about calling and starts screwing around trying to elicit tells.
brad
Look at the Mike Caro video. I am not saying but it (although it is good), but find someone with it and borrow it. If you like it (and I did) then buy it (as I did) or split the costs ($60) with a friend. It has some helpful hints that surprisingly work.
.
Brad, 1) As soon as he threw them face down, the dealer should have mucked them.
2) In some rooms, scooping them all up will be taken by the dealer as a fold.
But, as to your question of what to do, I have found that sitting quietly influences people to some extent to fold, while talking (to anyone, about anything) encourages people to call. They are curious about what you are doing and want to find out.
When he threw them face down, I might have said to the dealer "Has he folded?"
DJ
for what its worth, ive found against good players if you dont scoop yours up when they scoop theirs up they take it as a sign of weakness.
brad
If that's the case Brad, then I would scoop when you're weak and leave them out there when you're strong and try to induce a call.
yes, ive done that.
brad
If a player picks up his face-up cards in stud, it is supposed to be a fold. Is this a game in a casino?
ja, gila river in arizona. its the worst run cardroom ever probably. im playing at the new casino arizona only when it opens in a few days.
brad
4-8 game at the Bellagio. Very good game,with multiple callers but few raisers. One opponent was a good player, and I was up against him with a pair of Queens on fifth street against a flush draw that was still live. My hand was Q-8/Q-7-10 and he had x-x/10s-2s-Ks. He was the type of player to bet a draw, and if he had a pair of K's he might check raise.
Thinking back to the green book, it seemed to me to be the same situation as in the Throwing Fast Balls chapter. So when he checked on fifth, I checked behind him. I got two pair on sixth, so I bet and he called. On the river he caught a flush, he bet and I called because he frequently bluffed when he missed his draws, and even once bet a lone ace on the river.
Did I make a mistake? After the hand, I thought that I should have bet, as if he only had a draw he might fold for two units as long as he didnt have the pair of K's. I checked because If he made a pair of K's I would be a dog, but would have to call. Should I have tried for a check raise on sixth after I paired up on board? He was a good player and might have bet a pair of k's with a draw if I checked, allowing me to raise. I cant help thinking that I misplayed this hand somehow, even though I got the pot heads up against a draw with a pair of Q's.
As an aside, I just bought Mason's Gambling Theory book,and I recommend it to everyone. There are some GREAT bad beat stories there, especially the guy who lost after getting five aces in draw!!
Pat
Pat,
You got it heads up on 5th I assume you bet all the way up until then. Once you knew he didn't have the flush on 5th checking is fine (assumming he's the type that would bet a flush). Sixth street bet is good because now you definitely know that he doesn't have the flush because he would of come back at you. By him betting on the river you know he caught but you have to call him IMO. The problem is once he has the 4-flush your not going to get him out, unless you have trips on the board and even then I've seen players stay. If you can attack that type of opponent early on by raising or check raising on third or 4th street he won't be there to draw out on you. It's also good that he's around because the next time your Q's may be enuf to take down the pot.
paul
It is hard to analyze this hand without a little more concise description.
Did you raise on 3rd street? Did you lose position on 6th street (by pairing an up card)?
If you put him on a pair of 10's you should bet 5th street, because he can't have the flush. If you had position on 6th street his 7th street bet is less likely to be a bluff, but against this opponent it is probably correct to pay the bet off.
I have never played Omaha Hi Pot Limit and would appreciate some advice on beginning hands and on stratey in general.
Thanks for any help.
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
hi tom havnt heard too much from you lately on the forum. glad to see your back. in om pot. position is king. stay away from opening any pots early. have all 4 cards working well if you are not in perfect position or arent stealing. stay out of pot with lots of tight players without a big pair and 2 good ones with it or real good middle cards that make the nuts. and getting in for one bet. much of your win should come from stealing pots from people afraid of seeing the nuts and having giant wrap around draws that arent likely shared. you will have only so many nut hands that you will win little from them as many do get beat on the drawout.
much of your win should come from stealing pots from people afraid of seeing the nuts
When do you steal in PLO? If you are targeting people afraid of being shown the nuts, does that mean you wait 'til the river? or for a blank on 4th street and move it in then?
position is king. Is there anything wrong with playing a steal from in front?
Hi, how easy is it to learn Omaha and Omaha 8? I keep hearing people tell me those games are a lot easier to make money from than playing holdem!!!! If this is true I want to give those games a try. What are good books to read to learn these games? Thanks!
Ray Zee's High-Low-Split Poker is the classic. You definitely should read it before you start risking your money playing either seven stud high/low or Omaha high/low. The first half of the book is about seven stud high/low. The second half of the book is about Omaha high/low, with a chapter about basic strategy. Very insightful for both seven stud high/low and Omaha high/low.
Bob Ciaffone's Omaha Holden Poker is also good. Mostly it's about high, with only a small section on the high low game.
T.J. Cloutier's Championship Omaha is also worthwhile reading. Like Bob Ciaffone's book there is more on Omaha-straight-high than Omaha high/low.
Without a lot of Omaha high/low experience you might best start with Shane Smith's book, Omaha Hi-Lo Poker, which seems written for low limit Omaha high/low games.
Hope this helps. I have a few other Omaha books but these, especially Ray Zee's top my list. (I have no connection with 2+2, except I own a bunch of their books.)
Buzz
what about somebody like myself who needs basic beginner low limit type advice, such as starting hand selection and basic ideas of when to bet out and when to check call and such? basically an omaha/8 equillivent to holdem poker, the thin yellow classic.
Mississippi Gambler - I havent seen an Omaha book that lists starting hands in groups like David Sklansky did for Texas hold 'em.
There are systems for playing starting hands. Cappelletti and Hutchinson both have point count systems for starting hands that might be worthwhile, especially for beginners, and there are probably other point count systems. You can download Hutchison's system for free from the web. I can probably provide you with a link if you're interested. But, honestly, you're being "penny wise and pound foolish" if you don't get a copy of Ray Zee's book. It's that good!
Zee provides a fine discussion of playable hands in his basic strategy section. Ciaffone also has a section on starting hands. Cloutier also has a section on starting hands. I loaned my Shane Smith book to a friend who then dropped out of sight, but I think she has a section on starting hands also. They all recommend playing tight.
Very simply, not much without an ace is playable, and most hands with an ace are not playable.
Just my opinion. Good luck to you.
Buzz
The link to Doc Hutchison's Omaha Point Count System is at http://www.homestead.com/ehutchison/OmahaSystem~ns4.html
If you play Mississippi casinos in Philadelphia, Vicksburg and sometimes Tunica you may have noticed him. He will be taking notes on a little pad and usually has lots of chips in front of him.
mredge:
I just have visited the stated website and coul not find a hint how to access Mr. Hutchinson's Omaha'8 strategy points.
Please advise.
Thanks!
It took me 3 trys to get there. I had to put in every thing precisly as writen, incloding the html at the end.
Actually, I got there the first time but could not find a hint how to download the desired ranking points.
Were you abble to access it? If yes, please share your blue print.
Thanks!
I am a computer illiterate, all i did is hit the print function on my computer and it printed it. I did not save it and have no idea on how to send it.
sorry or i would send it to you.
Ps. it is my roomates computer and i do not play with it much other than read things off the net.
Ray Zee's book has an excellent section on beginning tactics. I haven't yet read a point count system that is worth learning more than the concepts that Ray discusses.
5/10 O/8, weak game.
I am just before the cutoff, 2 limpers to me. I call with As2s5K (not having read the current Poker Digest) . Cutoff and Button limp behind me, and SB raises. All call.
14 small bets in pot.
Flop is 225, SB bets, BB raises, 2 limpers give up the ghost, I don't believe suspect in BB and 3 bet. Cutoff caps, all call.
34 small bets in pot.
Turn is an 8, check to me. I bet, cutoff raises, button 3 bets, and we lose the blinds. I call, cutoff calls.
26 big bets in pot.
River is a 4, check to the button, bet, call, call.
Button turns over the expected 5589, and cutoff has A3. I just lose.
Questions.
1. Is A25K suited really not playable except maybe on the button?
2. Should I 3 bet prior to the flop? Would anything have chased the 5589? Heck, I don't remember, he might have even been suited.
3. I put LB on AA, and BB on a mystery, perhaps a straight draw. What should I do on the flop with bottom full?
4. When the button raised the turn (had to be 5's), should I have folded to 2 bets despite the pot size? I have maybe 1 out for high, and 3 outs for (possibly) half the low even with their actual hands. When the cutoff doesn't cap the turn, he has to be A3 with a fear of quartering.
5. How the heck do you play bottom full anyway? I'm obviously clueless.
Clueless -
Questions.
1. Is A25K suited really not playable except maybe on the button?
2. Should I 3 bet prior to the flop? Would anything have chased the 5589? Heck, I don't remember, he might have even been suited.
3. I put LB on AA, and BB on a mystery, perhaps a straight draw. What should I do on the flop with bottom full?
4. When the button raised the turn (had to be 5's), should I have folded to 2 bets despite the pot size? I have maybe 1 out for high, and 3 outs for (possibly) half the low even with their actual hands. When the cutoff doesn't cap the turn, he has to be A3 with a fear of quartering.
5. How the heck do you play bottom full anyway? I'm obviously clueless.
Answers?
1. A25K suited is playable in any position by a good player
2. I wouldn't generally three bet before the flop. Two reasons: (1) you give your hand away, (2) it's surprising how often you get screwed with A-2. But I like to randomly mix up my play, so sometimes I might raise. Who knows what someone who plays 5589 will do.
3. If you're going to play a bottom full, you raise with it after the flop. Your object is to limit the field.
4. I don't know if you call or not. It depends.
5. Very carefully! Try this:
Take a deck of cards and deal out 22458. Then deal out nine four card hands. Try it again, and again. I think you'll find that more often than two times out of three when you try this more than hand will have a full house.
Bottom full house in a loose game is not a very good hand!
Buzz
As2s5K not playable...? Where did you get that kind of info. Sounds like someone is confused.
Anyone who would call a more than 1/2 of a small bet with 5589 in O/8 is a moron. You might have lost him with an initial raise, but I see no reason to believe he would fold to a 3-bet raise. Furthermore, I see no reason to believe that this hand is enough information to base a decision to raise on. (either initially or as a re-raise) If eliminating the weak callers was such an important concern, we would never call with good but not great hands3.
"I put LB on AA, and BB on a mystery, perhaps a straight draw. What should I do on the flop with bottom full?"
I would not read AA unless the SB is not very bright. I would believe AA3. A34 is also a serious possibility.
You should raise. This is very different than playing bottom 2 pair and filiing on the river. You have the 2nd nut, and anyone who actually has outs is drawing thin. You are supposed to lose lots of money when you run up against this hand. The good news is that it is fairly rare.
The real problem is on the turn. If a low comes, and the bets start flying, you could easily be in a tough spot. Are you beat, or are the A3 hands (possibly one with a deuce) betting. Such hands are just simply hard to play. When that low comes on the turn it is almost impossible to tell if the agression is from A3 or 55 or even a deuce that just filled.
Current Poker Digest, "Teacher" column. A2K with 5 thru 9, marginal hand, playable only in late position, only if 5 is suited with the A or K (muck if A2 is suited instead of the A5?)
Sounds strange to me.
btw, excellent characterization of sb.
Bottom full house is a pretty weak hand. Reminds me of this hand...
I was in the blind with 3 3 x x. (I don't remember the other 2 and it doesn't matter.)
Flop comes 3 x x giving me bottom set. Looks like a straight might be out there so I check to see what the action is like. UTG bets, a few callers, I call knowing it cant be raised.
Turn card pairs the board. I bet, couple of callers, player whom I respect raises, I muck. There was no low out there.
Routine laydown of the tiniest possible full house.
-SmoothB-
My comments:
I have been playing OM8 since its intorduction in the Los Angeles CA area(maybe about 14 years ago).
Regarding OM8, when the board pairs -- there is a good chance of more than one full house. Therefore the bottom full is often not a winner. Most cognizant OM8 players realize this possibility and play accordingly.
Good poker sense or gut feelings are very important: From experience it seems to me that most good OM8 players can sense when they probably have the best Hi hand and usually avoid missing a winning bet. Important variables or parameters that these good OM8 players employ are: position; betting action"history" for this particular hand; knowing the other players style....
This situation sounds like one I've been in a few times myself. This is what I think about when it happens, let me know what I'm off on, and what I'm leaving out...
On the flop I first believe that I have the best hand, since only the other 2 5's can beat me. I also notice that I have 3 to a wheel, so I fear a 6,7,8 more than I fear a 3 or 4 (an ace give me the best 2's full so I don't "fear" it as much as the 3 or 4). On the turn if a low does come, I will just call all future bets if someone else was aggresive on the flop (fearing they have drawn out on me, have the same hand, or had me beat with the 5's). If a 9 through Q comes on the turn, I will bet out in an early postion since I still have outs even if another 2 drew out on me. If I do get raised on the turn when I bet out in this situation (and I don't catch the K or A on the river) I will fold to a bet on the river from about 90% of the player I play with, since most would play scared unless they had me beat.
Another big factor (as someone said before) is knowing who will bet/raise with an A-3 in this situation. If a player capable of doing this is the only other player showing aggresion on the flop, I will be much more likely to bet when the 3 or 4 comes on the turn, or the 9-Q.
There are a few players I play with, that I would be able to lay down to on the flop, if they bet out, I raise behind them, and they re-raise. There is no possibility for them other than 5's full.
That is about all I think about, thanks in advance for your advice.
Matt
I was on business in LA recently. While there, I played my first sessions of Mexican poker. It certainly seems like the 2-4 and 4-8 games are well stocked with fish. I was amazed to see people play hands as bad as 47 offsuit.
Anyhow, despite being brand new, I picked up a nice chunk of chump change from these games and I don't even know anything about the game except things that were obvious after a minute of thought.
Does anyone around here know where to find some information on the strategy for this game.
I play in mostly 5-10 games in AC, where there are a lot of callers on third and fourth. My question has to do with my basic strategy in these games.
If I have a good hand on third street, i.e high pair or high three flush with an A or K showing, I raise, and usually knock out a few but not all players. If there are a few draws, and perhaps a smaller pair, I usually will wait until fifth street to raise again, and will go for a checkraise on fourth in early position,(and will raise or bet in late position). I do this to knock people out. I will usually risk a check in order to checkraise on fourth if the pot is small on fourth, and if it is checked around then I have given a free card. This seems like it could be a mistake. If someone bets I will almost always checkraise,and this ususally is successful. Depending on the game, I will sometimes bet on fourth instead of checkraise, and then checkraise on fifth, if I am sure that someone willbet after me.
However, after I check on fourth and have given a free card, occasionally everyone will fold on fifth after a bet, or everyone will check to me on fifth and then when I bet, they all fold. This implies to me that they may have folded for $5 on fourth, in which case it appears that I have given them a chance to catch a card. I have occasionally lost pots to draws that caught a card on fourth to warrant calling to the end.
So, basically I have two competing interests here. I want to keep the pot small,so that a raise destroys the odds I am giving on fourth or fifth. However, this forces me to give a free card occasionally on fourth, as I will usually go for the checkraise in early position. Is this a good general strategy, or is the occasional free card bad enough to make this strategy incorrect? If so, how should I play these hands? I find that with a high pair I will usually get a lot of callers on fourth even if I bet, as long as I have not improved, and then I get checked to on fifth. This is why I decided to use the checkraise strategy.
Any comments are appreciated.
It's a puzzlement!
Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky have correctly deemed Seven Card Stud a very complicated game. You are finding out first hand. High pairs play better against a small field. The best field is one opponent for a big pair. Big flushes play well against both a small field and a big field. Since betting does not have the effect of limiting the field when you have a big flush draw encourage a lot of players to call by just calling third street. Hope they all call.
If you have a live high pair with a two straight or 2 flush then raise on third street. If you limit the field then fine. If not you get more money in the pot with a hand that has good potential. If you have a big pair with a no hel kicker and not other possibilities or if your hand is not very hand play the hand like a drawing hand and tend to call rather than raise. Raise these type of hands when someone has raised before you and you feel there is a good chance you can get it heads up. Third street is very critical in all limits of seven stud (I play up through 20-40) but it is most important at the low limits like 5-10 because of al the callers you see at those limits. Even though a lot of your opponents are making 3rd street calling errors thier combined weight makes winning against them a frustrating endeavor. The third street strategy I reccommend for games that are very loose is a bit tighter than most and not as aggressive as most will tell you.
On fourth street if the pot is small you should be betting your big pairs trying to knock people out. Check raising with a big pair in a small pot against a lot of opponents is not a good idea. When the pot is big and you have a likely bettor on your right is the time to try for a check raise. Free cards are almost always a mistake. Tend to bet hands that you feel are best on fourth. Leave the check raise to fifth to knock people out. If your big pair hasn't improved by 5th and you have 2 or more callers it may be time to start checking and even folding if your hand doesn't have much of a chance pof improving.
Vince.
I agree with Vince here for the most part in theory. I find that check raising does not move the weekend crowd in AC either at Taj or Trop, so I really raise early with high pairs to dump the straight/flush draws if I can (got to look at the board carefully) and later to get money in the pot. Everyone with a freaking picture card calls 2 bets on 3rd street. It is almost a waste of time except UTG or last when it is just you and the bring-in. And pot odds??? The weekend crowd can only figure odds out at 3rd street, and implied odds are a foreign language to them.
ratso--
is this really true (about little/no respect for 3rd and 4th st raises in ac 5/10)? If so, the 1-3 and 1-5 games I'm playing at the trop are much tighter than that and i'm playing in the wrong game.
btw, i get around this dilemma by betting/raising on 3rd and betting out on 4th and reraising if possible. It's a drag to get more of your chips in when you feel the horserace paradox creeping up on you (like sometimes you just _know_ someone's going to hit a draw and you bum out while putting your chips in), and it's particularly frustrating at 1/3 and 1/5 when you win a tiny pot with a hand you know is best, but roy's advice "it's better to win a small pot then lose a big one" seems apropos, and i might be playing at the wrong limit anyway since there's something to steal at least at 5/10.
Hi Pat, I play mostly spread limit, but some structured stud up to 15-30. Protecting big pairs is difficult, but I think you've got the best strategy.
The free card on 4th isn't great, but if you bet and the first guy calls, each successive player has more in the pot to call for. Depending on the rake and whether it is a $1 or $2 bring in, there may be about $30 in the pot at the end of 3rd street bets. A $10 bet on 5th (or a $10 check-raise on 4th) may knock players out. If you bet on 4th there will be around $65 after you bet 5th and you'll get more callers.
The total win rate may not change much, but the frustration level is better if you play it your way instead of betting out on 4th.
DJ
Dear Pat You make some interesting points but Im afraid you missed a key point which should revolutionizeyour game it is best described in Sklanskies and Malmuths book "Advanced stud 2000" (Dave and Masson have a classic book which is only 4 months old) In their section "playing in loose games" They point out that the key to playing big pairs is improving your odds of winning by adjuting the number of oponents yo the ratio that will give you the mathmatical provability of making the most money. For example you raie with your split pair of aces thats perfect you now have the ideal number of oponents to make money , if you get two caller thats still very good . three is ok now your fourth stree bet has a ggod chance of reducing your oponents to one or two but when you have four callers now you have a problem now you want to go for your "right sided check raise". (see Sklanskies book ( theory of poker on right vs left sided check raising.) or you might want yo make the same move on 5th street . Now if you happen to be up against paired door cards and suited conectors you might want to get ready to muck the hand. With your drawing hand it is a whole different story. For example if you are on fourth with a four flush and no flush cards out you have a 55% chance of making your flush and you are hoping for lots of callers But with a four flush and 5 flush cards out and 12 cards out you only have an aproximatly 35% chance of making your hand and you will want to cross your fingers and hope you can make your flush as cheaply as possible.You need to rember with 12 cards out your provability coeficent has droped from 2.8 to 2.5 or 2.4 ( I cant rember exactly ) And also the key to playing drawing hands is the pot odd to winning hand ratio .If you follow the ratio and make calls with positive mathmatical expectations you will allways win "in the long run". The best description of this principle and its resultine stratagy ( in the lay literature ) Is described in Constantine Ottmers excelent book "Seven seven card poker" I hope these thoughts will ne a help . " Luck favors the prepared mind " Pascal Your friend and coleague Doc B from AZ. f
Dear Pat I made a mistak of posting my response with out rereading it. Paragraph 1 line 8 should read "if you get one caller thats perfect. which is almost verbatum to what Vince said. Incidently all of Vinces advice was excellent But his coment in paragph 2 line 2 on the value of live cards and conected or suited kickers with your big pair in loose games "is pure gold" your colleague Doc B from AZ.
Doc (and Pat for that matter) S and M wrote sound advice. I love their books as guides, but YOU will have to adjust to the game YOU are in. What works for S & M in LV should work everywhere most of the time, but what if it works all week against the rocks and solid players and you find yourself playing on weekends at AC or Foxwoods against peopele who "come to gamble". It is these instances when you must adjust or your game according to who you are playing. Coming in 2nd best in cards sucks. Follow S & M's guidelines bud adopt them to your game.
What new book!! I havent heard/seen it. Are you just talking about the new edition of the green book?
Pat, I understand your frustration. However, I believe the answer to your problem has a simple side to it, too: you have to reduce the field, so do whatever works to do that. If that means check-raising, just be as sure as possible that someone close to your right will bet. If you are not sure, bet. You don't want to give a free card this early. Give the free card up late when you are sure they won't fold. Don't worry too much about the money in the pot. If they don't have playable hands, you want those loose players to call you to the river. If you play it right, you should win in the long run.
If you get too many callers, consider who you are up against. Would they call with anything. Is it obivous that you have a high pair, or is your pair hidden. Remember, you have already telegraphed your hand by betting. You may want to consider backing off after fifth street if you think you are beat or that your opponents are committed to the river. If they bet into you, you have to recognize that they have probably put you on a high pair. They may already have you beat. But don't give them free cards early. Make them pay to draw on you and then determine whether they have been successful. These loose players should pay you off more often then not.
Remember, Playing against loose players can be profitable, but it still requires that you think and read hands. Play aggressively. Make them pay. If your reads are good, you should come out ahead.
Suppose I play this game , the drop : Everybody have 3 cards in his hand . Only card high , pair or triple is good . no flush , nostraight . The dealer says 1-2-3 GO and If you keep your cards in your hand and your the only one , you take the pot , if not ,every players show is hand , the best hand takes the pot and the other(s) who keep their hand have to pay the pot . When should I be in , and when not ? The answer is , I think : If we are 2 in this game My hand must beat 50% of any 3 cards possible , if we are 5 my hands must beat 80% of any 3 cards ...etc ... My question is : which minimum hand beat 50% , which beat 66% , which one beat 90% ?
Just some advice on the mechanism you use. By going on an oral signal, you're opening the game up to cheaters. Someone with the right skills can make their decision a fraction of a second after seeing what everyone else has done. If they're good enough, you won't catch them. More often, someone will kindof change their mind, and accidentally hold on a bit too long, or the like. This will look like cheating. Do it this way instead.
Have everyone grab a chip, and put both hands, including the chip, under the table. They then bring up their right hand. Once everyone has a hand up, they show what's in their hand. No chip means they fold, but if they've brought the chip up, they are staying. This way no one can use or try to use, their physical ability to move quick, see quick, etc., to cheat. Also, fewer accidents will happen, and people won't be falsely accused of cheating (when they're really just clumsy or weren't paying attention).
Alternatively, you can probably think of many other mechanisms for players to designate what they're doing without it being so prone to problems.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Test
Hi there in 2+2 land,
I was leafing through one of Feeney's new additions to the 2+2 library and came across and interesting statement. . It was the part where Dave Sklansky was contacted for lessons and the author was suprised that it would take only a few hours for Dave to take him from loser to winner. . So the question becomes... What goes on in those 3-6 hours that's not in the books? What is being withheld that is so concise and so short that it only takes a few hours to go from losses to wins. I gaurantee the books took me longer than that to go through and success was marginal at best. . So what is it that these private lessons cover? Is that material in the books or not? Have we been misled? Have the books ommitted something? . Sincerely, FLMason
I answered this same duplicated post on the General Theory Forum.
me too!
Hi, I am wondering about the effects of a kill in a 20-40 eight or better game. The rule is that if you scoop a pot that is over $200 you have to put a $20 kill on the next hand.
How does this affect overall profit potential?
What are the appropriate adjustments to the strategy recommended in your book?
(Both for playing a hand initially and when there is a kill on it).
Thanks very much for any help!
unless players are bad kill pots ruin poker games. it helps a tight player as he wins few pots and gets to see cards in a bigger pot for the smaller ante. thus kill pots tighten up a poker game plus many people tighten up as the higher stakes when killed is too big for them, and their new tight play continues on in the regular pots. there are many variations of kills, but consider what it does to the stakes in relation to whats in the pot at the start.
Thanks for the quick, informative response, Ray.
The other question I had was should it change my play in terms of starting hands considering the fact that I will have to kill it if I scoop?
And I guess it pays to play a little looser when the pot is killed because there is more reward in terms of the extra money in the kill pot.
Thanks again!
Saturday at Foxwoods 10-20 7CS. The table is typical of a weekend, 2 players who are lousy, a couple of weak tight, a couple of tight, and 2 solid.
LP1 x x \2h SP x x \Kc #3 x x \5h #4 x x \8d #5 x x \4d ME JcJh\Qc LP2 x x \As WK x x \Ah
Lousy Player #1 (LP1)is the bring in with the 2h. He brings it in for $10. This is a standard manuever for LP1. He can still be playing anything. Seat #2, a solid player (SP), raises to $20 with the Kc. #3,#4, and #5 fold. I am in seat 6, I have JcJh\Qc. I see the raise by #2 as a clear attempt to get heads up with the LP1. He may have a pair of Kings but I think a flush draw is possible. It is unlikely that he has only big cards due to my Q and 2 aces yet to act. I cold call the $20. The 2 aces are Lousy Player #2 (LP2), and weak/unimaginative (WK). With more aggressive players behind me, or if my cards were partially dead, I may throw my hand away. I thought with this lineup, I wasn't going to be reraised. The LP2, WK, and LP1 all call the raise. 5 way action, $107 in the pot.
Fourth street brings the following: LP1 x x \2hKs SP x x \Kc8s ME JcJh\Qc8c LP2 x x \AsKd WK x x \Ah3d
The LP2 checks, WK checks, LP1 bets, SP raises, I cold call as do LP2 and LP1, WK folded. Still can't put LP1 on a hand. It is likely that he does have a pair, probably deuces (yes he would bet into the 3rd st raiser with only deuces). I now figure SP for Kings. This raise seems desparate to limit the field. The kings are now dead, If he had aces, they are dead, It is still possible he has queens or another smaller pair, or a 3 flush, but I think his most likely hand is kings. LP2 could have anything and he doesn't scare me yet. Four players, $187 pot
Fifth Street LP1 x x \2hKs4h SP x x \Kc8s5c ME JcJh\Qc8c9d LP2 x x \AsKd6s
LP2 and LP1 check, SP bets, I call, LP2 folds?, LP1 calls. I thought my decision to call is questionable. I think the better play may have been to raise. LP2 folded anyway but LP1 has remained and SP has complete control of the hand. Even if I'm beat now, I think I have a minimum 6 outs and the possibility to pick up additional outs on later streets. The possibility of a reraise from SP shouldn't be that great of a consideration because the pot is now so large. The SP also can't represent a hand that I can't beat with my draws. One argument against the raise now is I know that SP is going to keep firing chips and if I do make my draw I'm going to get in an extra bet with the best of it. Three players, $247 pot
Sixth Street LP1 x x \2hKs4h6c SP x x \Kc8s5c7s ME JcJh\Qc8c9d3c
SP bets, I call, LP1 folds. I don't know what LP1 was playing but I can't imagine folding at this point with anything other than no pair no straight draw. I thought this was straight forward. I'm not folding now. The pot is too large and I have picked up some additional outs with a flush draw. two players $287 pot.
On the river SP x x \Kc8s5c7s\x ME JcJh\Qc8c9d3c\Jd
He bets, I raise, he gives me a whining call (higher pitched crying call). My 3 jacks beats his K's and 5's. I raise here because I'm sure he will call with kings up. He can't have 3 kings, straight is highly unlikely, plus he should fear flush, and flush, same as straight, unless he has the Ace.
He berates my play from the beginning because I cold called $20 on third street, and didn't fold to his raise on 4th street. I bite my tongue and decide to post the story.
All comments welcome and appreciated.
John Gaspar
I am happy you won, but to cold call 2 raises with 3 higher cards on board and 2 Aces still to speak is ballsy and borders on careless. If I am in the last Ace position and I have even a small pair, I'll put you in a sandwich and might make it 3 bets. Then what do you do? If you call, you are crazy. I wouls have raised if the Aces were in front of me and folded. I respect Aces; maybe you should too.
I think the call on the flop is ok, I would be more worried about the K than the 2 A's behind me. I don't think an AA is that much of a favorite over the 2J's with another A showing.
You might be trapping the J's with a raise, but you are raising into K's minus one of your A's.
Ratso, I agree in principle with you respect toward Aces. Although this hand doesn't reflect it, I do have a healthy respect for the Aces and the possibility of a reraise. In this case I didn't think that it was likely. The weak/unimaginative player would play like a calling station, and the lousy player wouldn't reraise even if he had Aces.
With tougher players or more sophisticated players, I probably don't play for the original $20. I felt that this was a positive opportunity.
John
I have done what you did, only I had my ass handed to me as I did not hit my hand and was beaten by a weak player who improved to 2 pair while I did not. Your move is a good example of what you CAN do when you are sure of the competition; and in this case you certainly were.
Ratso,
Remember, an ass in hand is better than a penis in the bush. Hmm.. well.. maybe not.
Vince.
An ass in 1 hand and a penis in her bush.
Also, it is "lack of money is the root of all evil"
No. It's: "Peter piper packed his pickled pecker..." and "A bird in the bush is better than a pickled pecker in the pants"
vince.
I think your call on third was correct. You had a good hand that plays well with many players due to the straight and flush possibilities. I believe that LP1 had ace-duece in the hole. Why else would he bring it in for $10? Go figure.
On fourth street your hand still looks good, so the call is correct. You usually cannot get rid of weak players until the bets double anyway. They all cold called on third, why wouldn't they on fourth?
I think you should have raised on fifth. First, you want to get rid of LP2 so he does not draw out on you. Note that, you may get reraised since SP had two pair, but I believe that's the risk you have to take. Furthermore, in this case you would have won more money.
The player that berated you, was just pissed off that he lost. The SP played poorly. He should have realized from the calls on third street that he was not going to get rid of everyone on fourth.
My experience with players like LP1 bringing in for $10 with a duce is usually a pair of deuces that he is trying to protect and is somewhat on tilt especially if he has had to bring in the time before. I doubt he had an ace at least in East coast 7CS
I haven't read the rest of the responses. I believe that given the description of the game that you gave you played the hand as well as it could be played. You could fold on third street against the SP double raise but I liked your reasoning and it sure looked like it was going to be a big pot. If you are going to gamble it may as well be for a lot of money. A raise on 6th buys you little but I guess an arguement for can be made for one. BTW I can't imagine not calling the river even if you caught a blank. Also and maybe most important. Your hand was pretty live (not entirely) on third street. There's a lot to be said for playing live cards.
Vince.
I think on 3rd street if Gaspar has Jacks and there are Kings and possibly aces out there, our guy is an underdog. Folding in early position before any calls and before the aces is not a bad thing. Costs almost nothing. I think a fold would be in order. Too conservative????
maybe, but my variance is pretty low and I like it that way.
I don't think folding is a mistake. I also think calling is a reasonable play given the description of the situation. Don't forget there were duplicate Aces behind him and he put the K on trying to get the LP heads up. If I'm the K I raise with a lot less hands than Kings to get a weak player heads up. Our poster evaluated the situation and made a not to loose call. A call with potential I must say. Ratso if I had your money I probably reraise. Now that may be a mistake.
Vince.
I am trying to think like a holdem player in a stud game. In that case, I think you are right in evaluating and calling, but a stud player would probably fold in that situation. Different mind set here.
Oh, yes my money---guess I'll have to get another Benz. How did you like my Armani suit I was wearing? I had those short pants made special, and with the material left over, I had them make me a hat.
Atl City is nice in the fall!
Based on your description of the hand, reraising on third street is far superior to calling. The key is your kicker is a suited connector. You said that the "K" was possible trying to isolate the chump. If this is true your raise will drive out the hands behind you assuming they don't have aces, and if he has kings you aren't much of an underdog. Plus you can handle some of the multiway action with you suited connector. I am suprised more people haven't suggested this. When you call with the queen showing, it screens that you have a high pair that can't beat kings. He knows right where you are.
Once five players get to the river, jacks up are not going to be that often.
"Based on your description of the hand, reraising on third street is far superior to calling. "
Maybe one of us read the description of the situation incorrectly. I don't doubt that it may be me. But if I read it correctly there is slim to no chance of getting this hand heads up. I've done quite a bit of playing with loose lousy players. Trying to get a hand heads up when there are two raises before you is, I can't think of the word, but impossible comes close. Now if you can't get a hand heads up which would be the best scenario you go for second best and that is to try for a lot of callers. What helps your live hand for multi-way action is the suited connector. Just an opinion.
Vince
DearJohn, I have a feeling you had some doubts about calling the double raise on third with the two aces behind you. You can make a case either way. You did have the increased odds of having your live pair in the hole and therefor The increased implied odds ,but still wih paint all over board the best case senerio would be to probably drop the hand.You had a straight kicker but your primary and secondary cards are in trouble. And if the ace does raise you "you become the cheese".(aces will beat jacks from 62 to 59% of the time ,,when one ace is out, depending on the livelyness of the kickers) I agree with your fourth, sixth, and sevent street play. But would question calling a bet on fifth street. There you have a three card flush and a three card straight but its a gut shot straight. And your chances of hitting that jack are now only 5%. It would be a marginal call at best. But God knows I have made plenty of marginal calls and I have a rule never to criticize a man when "he is stacking MY CHIPS". Its fun replaying our hands, thanks for sharing this one with us Sincerley Doc B
Hi,
I'm hoping that someone can help me find some information on the rules of Chinese Poker. Hopefully an internet page that has the rules on it. Also, if anyone knows where I can find a page with some strategy on it for this game, I would appreciate that as well.
Rules aren't that hard.
Deal 13 cards apiece (and facedown) to 2, 3, or 4 players.
Each player divides his cards into 3 hands, a top hand of 5 cards, a middle hand of 5 cards, and a bottom hand of 3 cards. The hands are ranked according to the normal poker hand-rankings. Straight flush, 4 of a kind, etc., down to no pair. Your top hand must be a higher ranki