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Wow! I am the first to post.
What percentage of the pots I enter in a low limit game, ie: 3-6, should I expect to win if I am playing good, by the book, starting hands and play well to the river.
My records for 4-8 limit indicate that I play about 6 hands an hour and win about 2 hands per hour.
The casino where I play rakes 10% up to $3 with a $1 jackpot drop. I believe you must play very tight to reduce your exposure to the rake as much as possible.
With few raises you should be in lots of pots; perhaps 1 in 4. In an aggressive game perhaps 1 on 8. In a loose game you should win about one hand in 15 since you are much more selective than they (i.e. 2/3 of your "fair share"). In a tight game you should be winning MORE than your fair share since you will be stealing a lot; perhaps 1 in 8.
At least these are my SWAG's.
- Louie
...I kept track of these things one time I went to the casino - lets see what I remember
...in a loose passive game, expect to win around 1 in 4 hands you go in on - don't count big blinds. In a weak tight game, expect to win more. In a loose aggressive game, expect to win less.
no guarantee on these numbers - hope some other people agree...I don't think this is a real significant statistic anyhow - the numbers are small and the deviation can be huge.
~DjTj
Interesting to note that if you win 1/4 of the hands you play in a lose game, as per DjTj, and you play 1/4 of your hands in a loose game, following Louie Landale, you'll be winning 1/16 hands, which is very close to Louie's estimate of 1/15. As usual, Louie is on the ball.
We keep score by the amount of money won,not by the number of pots won in a specific amount of time.If you are playing well the amount of pots won becomes rather unimportant. Get the edge and keep the edge!
I'm lower than you guys. I think in a loose 3-6 game I play about 1 in 6 (remember Mason's "Playing 15%" ? - I think that is about right, although the mix of hands played is different). And I also think I only win maybe one in five - if your mix is oriented to playing high implied odds hands like suited connectors, you will fold after the flop a high percentage of the time.
My bottom line is - when playing well and having a successful session - win about one pot per hour.
That being said, I agree with Edgeweys - This is a statistic, not a goal. If you get a lot of short-handed high-card hands and win a bunch of small pots in one hour, keep them with my blessing.
Dick
Hi, about the strategy on this page: http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html
he suggests this:
You are facing five loose limpers and you are on the button. How do you play your hand?
QQ Raise. You will win the pot more than your fair share, though < 50%.
55 Call. About 8-way to flop, but it will win less than 1 in 8 times.
ATs Raise. Big suited's win more than their fair share in multiway pots.
76s Raise. Even suited zero gappers win more than their fair share here.
AQ Raise. Your hand is likely best, by far.
JT Fold. If you want to play offsuit cards, you must have the best.
With five limpers why would you fold JToffsuit? If you fold here, when would you ever call with it? Isn't this just a little too tight?
Also, note later that he suggests this:
Example: You are on the button facing a raise from one off the button from a good player with competent opponents in the blinds.
QQ Reraise. You do not fear AA or KK here.
55 Reraise. Your hand plays much better heads up than 3-way.
ATs Borderline call/reraise. For fear of AJ, AJs is the first safe reraise.
76s Borderline reraise/fold. Your hand plays better heads up than 3-way.
AQ Reraise. Keep it heads-up for best chance of winning unimproved.
JT Borderline fold. Could call versus an even looser raise.
In this case a call would be ok with JToffsuit... this seems to contridict the earlier strategy! Anyone know why it would be a call here but not earlier? Thanks!
Against 5 decent limpers, your JTo has no pair value. Someone is bound to have you outkicked on at least one if not both of your cards (ie someone has AJ, someone has QTs). So you are only playing for a straight draw to make any real profit, which is not that good. In the second example, you are facing a steal raise from a "good player" who would raise with a lot of hands here. You have good chances to win with one pair, which is what a hand like JT needs.
The major reason is the source of the raise. Being in a late position, it is more likely to be a positional raise to steal blinds.
In this circumstance, you have the cutoff raising with what may be a rather sub-par hand. Your JT may very well be better than his hand, but if not you still have position on him. I think a critical assumption Abdul makes is "competent players in the blinds". Many competent players won't call with marginal hands out of the blinds once the button has called two cold, although they might call with that same hand if the button passed. It's really quite a pot odds paradox and hopefully someone can elaborate further on this concept.
"You are facing five loose limpers and you are on the button. How do you play your hand?"
QQ Raise. You will win the pot more than your fair share, though < 50%. Moron: Raise
55 Call. About 8-way to flop, but it will win less than 1 in 8 times. Moron: Call
ATs Raise. Big suited's win more than their fair share in multiway pots. Moron: Call - ATs is not what I consider big suited.
76s Raise. Even suited zero gappers win more than their fair share here. Moron: Call. Raising with this hand is for high limits.
AQ Raise. Your hand is likely best, by far. Moron: Raise or call - a little of each.
JT Fold. If you want to play offsuit cards, you must have the best. Moron: Call. Your position makes up for this weak hand but tread carefully with top pair.
"With five limpers why would you fold JToffsuit? If you fold here, when would you ever call with it? Isn't this just a little too tight?"
Over your next 5 or 6 sessions, keep a mental note of how many pots you take down with JT versus how many times you see the flop with it. Or jot it down during bathroom breaks.
You'll find that the way to win with this hands is by making at least two pair with it, or having it fill out a straight. I HATE holding JT and flopping one pair. It's like having a giant vacuum cleaner hovering over your chips. Someone's got you outkicked more often than not. Are you willing to put in one big bet in the hopes of seeing one of only two flops: TJx or AKQ? No way. Dump that cheese.
As for JT off, I usually play it in an unraised pot after several players have limped in. The exception is if any of the limpers, particularly the first player, plays well, or if the first limper is someone who likes to limp in with big hands and is prone to reraise if someone else raises.
On the other hand, even though I feel the call is correct, it is clearly not a big money maker, and may be a loser for you if your play on the flop and beyond is not that good. For those interested, in my own play I usually draw the line at 98 offsuit. That is this is the weakest hand that I will call with in this spot. As you can see, I'm not that far off from what Abdul recommends.
I agree with you on JT, I play it with 5 limpers. But I also agree with Abdul on the other cases listed.
I think you really have to know how the blinds will probably play this and decide from there. If there's a good chance that one of them might raise then you got to dump the hand, you can't take a raise and possible reraise with JTo, button or not.
I agree the value drops of JT drops in a raised pot. However, with 3 or more limpers, I don't have a problem calling JT for one bet. Of course, if it is two or more bets back to me, it's a clear fold.
Shooter sez: "You'll find that the way to win with this hands is by making at least two pair with it, or having it fill out a straight. I HATE holding JT and flopping one pair. It's like having a giant vacuum cleaner hovering over your chips. Someone's got you outkicked more often than not. Are you willing to put in one big bet in the hopes of seeing one of only two flops: TJx or AKQ? No way. Dump that cheese. "
You're forgetting the following flops: 9QK; 89Q; 789 and any variation gives an odds on open-ended or gut-shot draw.
TJ always makes the nut straight but, of course, loses many more ways.
3-6 on Paradise...
Its a pretty soft table, although there is one player who is definitely on tilt and is playing like a maniac. (Obvious signs of tilt were rants about how the site is rigged cf. Internet Poker Forum) Most of the other players are rather predictable.
I'm in the small blind with KdTh. The maniac is in middle position and decides to just call. Everyone else seems happy about that and only one player folds. I decide to call as well.
The flop comes 4cKc2d.
I am pretty sure the maniac will raise me if I bet regardless of his hand and I want to see if there are any better kickers out there in other hands, so I decide to check. The player right before the maniac bets and the maniac raises. Everyone else folds. I know the bet could easily be a flush draw - or even a weaker kicker, so I decide to call, planning to fold if it gets reraise-capped back to me. The bettor just calls and everyone else folds.
The turn is 8d.
I've pretty much decided to call the maniac down now and just cross my fingers and hope the flush doesn't come. The maniac bets, I call, and so does the other player.
The river is 2c.
This makes the flush, but the other player checks. The maniac bets, so I call and so does the flop bettor. The maniac turns over Kh7d, and I take the pot on my kicker. The other player had Ks5s.
Throughout the hand, I was pretty sure that I was leading, but with two other players in, I didn't feel like I was sure enough to be paying 2 extra bets each street. Any comments are welcome.
~DjTj
there is one player who is definitely on tilt and is playing like a maniac. Most of the other players are rather predictable
let's say mark and a table populated with a bunch of craigs.
The player right before the maniac bets and the maniac raises. Everyone else folds. I know the bet could easily be a flush draw - or even a weaker kicker, so I decide to call, planning to fold if it gets reraise-capped back to me. The bettor just calls and everyone else folds.
so now, with a Kxx flop and a flush draw, we have you out of position with top pair decent kicker, craig, and mark. since craig doesn't reraise you on the flop, he's either being tricky (betting before the maniac to thin the field with good headsup hand, prepairing to pound him) or not (top pair, gotta bet it). then he catches another caller, and either becomes tricker (smooth calling, looking for amazin raisin on the turn) or not().
when you don't check raise him on the turn, and he doesn't check raise you back, you must 1)fear the flush, and 2)discount crazy trickyness. reasons you would check raise craig on the turn: to make that flush draw of his pay, to make that weak kicker of his pay, or to get him to fold so you can pound on the maniac.
when craig doesn't bet the river (he's so not that tricky) you might want to throw in those extra bets again, or you could be cautious of mark.
so my answer is i don't believe mark, so yeah, throw in those extra bets.
although, if you do recall, you may want to disregard my advice, as i seem to check raise too much now, and also, last time i got involved with a maniac, my AK got cracked when the flop was KJ5 and it got to be heads up.
are you ever going to be in town, or no?
if i don't see you, have fun in the fall.
Joe
Actually, I think I'd give some of these players more credit than I'd give Craig - who definitely has not put in the hours at a poker table yet...but maniacs are maniacs are Maniac Mark...
Anyhow, I think the other response to this post - advocating re-raising the flop to find out something about the caller's hand is a good play. I could then bet out on the turn and perhaps slow the maniac down or get the caller to fold.
I'm not gonna be in town until the 26th, when everyone will have left again...maybe I'll drop by UM sometime - is there a poker game waiting for me?
...So a great thing happenned today - I crossed 0!! I now have made big bets in my casino poker playing career...13 big bets now - and counting! ;) Now, its just a short hop, skip, and jump to being positive money-wise...
See you around Joe,
~DjTj
On the flop you should have checked-raised.Your kicker was good.With the flush draw on the table you cannot give away cheap cards.IT was time to get aggresive.You generly want to be heads up with the maniac, punish the draws and weak kickers.The maniac well help you. Most low limit loose players will raise pre-flop with royal cards (K-j,K-Q,A-K). A maniac diffently would. If your check-raise is capped by the bettor then consider folding.If called start turning up the heat.(Beware OF players who might Slow Play ).
GET YOURSELF A COPY OF 'THE PSYCHOLOGY OF POKER'.It has good info on maniacs.
A good way to deal with an idiot is to wait on winning cards before you confront him(her). Then, you will have the edge and the extra bets will be in your pocket. That's the view from under the table.
MA
a room that I play in sometimes has a $3 live drop on the button. this drop applies for 3-6, 6-12 and 9-18. I'm trying to get a handle on the starting hands that this drop makes playable, given that 1) you're partially in, and 2) you have last position. Obviously you loosen up a lot more in the 3-6 than in the 9-18, but how loose would you play in the 9-18? the 6-12? would you call anything in the 6-12 given that you are half way in and have the button?
Somewhat loose-aggressive 6-12 game. I posted a blind behind the button and received 6s7h. Two limpers to me, I knuckle, the button raises, and is called the BB, the limpers, and myself. Button and BB are loose-aggressive; limpers are unknown.
The flop comes Kh-5c-8c. All check to button who bets; he is called by the BB, one limper, and myself. The turn brings the 3d, and everyone checks. Did I miss a good semi-bluff opportunity here? The loose-aggressive players would not have folded on the flop, but might fold on the turn if they had no pair and no draw.
The river brought the Qd, and the BB won with Qc9h.
AT the point this semibluff is being considered the hand aggressor is left to act. This is a bad position to be in. If you semi-bluff and he raises you wreck some of your odds on your draw. On the turn there is approximately 7 Bigbets available in the pot. Suppose that you semibluff and he raises and chops everyone off. This means you have put in 2bigbets for a return of 9 bigbets which is 4.5 to 1. These are insufficient odds for you draw and this of course assumes there is no other callers. Theoretically, all the other players could call, or one of them might be cooking up a checkraise. Bear in mind that you have only six nut outs and two outs that are potential flushes but will probably be good. The presence of those two flush cards also suggests that if one of your opponents is on it, a bluff is hopeless.
I believe the time to bet was the flop, where you still had two cards to come and more implied odds. I don't think in general it is the end of the world to simply call when you have a draw. After all the free card on the turn gave you six outs to the nuts.
On the turn, your odds aren't really that good and you can't afford the possibility that the buton will raise you.
You could've considered betting the flop - but that is probably even more likely to cause the button to raise.
It is difficult to make the best plays when the aggressor is sitting on your left - all you can do is try to get your cards as cheaply as possible, which is what you did.
Save your semibluffs for the more weak-tight players where they will work - the chances of a fold from most loose-aggressives is not enough to make a semibluff profitable.
~DjTj
When you're drawing to a straight, especially when there's also a flush draw, take the free card and be grateful for it.
Lin, you hit the nail on the head! With that kind of flop, there is a greater probability (35%) for the flash to come by the river than straight (31%). Yet straight loses to flash. As it stands, there is still action after the player who ponders his right move.
You also could have played it like a flush draw. Bet the flop. check the turn if a blank comes, and bet the river if you make your staright and also bet it some of the time a flush card comes.
Thanks for the suggestion. I think another scenario which could arise from a flop semi-bluff would be that the button raises and the other players fold. Then if the button checks the turn, I could bet the river no matter what card comes.
I'm confused. What about folding?
>I posted a blind behind the button and received 6s7h. Two limpers to me, I knuckle, the button raises, and is called the BB, the limpers, and myself.
Is this call correct due to the odds with 5 others in the pot? That I can understand.
>The flop comes Kh-5c-8c. All check to button who bets; he is called by the BB, one limper, and myself.
Is this correct? I'm guessing the only reason the button bet is because no one else bet. Why didn't you? If you're worried about that flush draw, than why are you calling bets on the flop? If you knew you would stay in, why not bet. Remember how important it is to make people pay for they're draws. (Especially when they're drawing to anything other than the nuts- wink-wink.) Check-limping in these situations is allowing these loose-aggressives to outplay you. To me your play seems loose-weak.
>The turn brings the 3d, and everyone checks. Did I miss a good semi-bluff opportunity here?
Why are you in this pot. The free card helps you, but did you know the button would check? You're just sitting there hoping no one bets and you get your card. What then? What if it's the 9c?
What happened on the river?
I'm very curious what you all think of my response, as it's intuitive and I'm not overly experienced.
Dax.
I was getting 9:1 pot odds for my preflop call, which I think is adequate for my weak hand. My check on the flop was not due to worry about a flush draw. Rather, I was concerned with maximizing my implied odds; I did not want the button to raise my bet and drive out my customers. However, I now see potential benefits of a semi-bluff here.
Having checked, I was now getting 13:1 odds to call on the flop with no risk of a reraise. This is clearly enough to call with my straight draw even if I am against a flush draw.
If the 4c or 9c came, I would bet if checked to, and call if bet at; I might not call a raise, however.
After 25 hrs of 5/10 HE, I am convinced that it is truly a game of high cards. Yes, those small pairs win about 7% of the time, but I saw a lot of pots with 2 sets. So, guess what set won? Average hand was (a guess here) high pair-high kicker or high pair-2nd pair
Also, I really believe that position contributes to somewhere around 30-40% of the success or failure of the hand.
I am NOT a Sklansky ass kisser, but the stuff he writes about the inportance of high cards and position is worth pondering. If you all keep playing those runner, runner and small pairs in early position I'll have to thank you for the contributions.
Seeing lots of two sets is very unusual. It does happen occasionally, but I suspect that you have just had a non-typical 25 hours.
Could very well be. It was a busy weekend and surprising high number of people seeingthe flop and lots of 5 way hands.
If you had to generalize, would you classify HE as a game of high cards? Three-five years ago would you classify it that way?
Hold 'em is too complex a game to make a simple statement like that. However, in general, high cards have more value than low cards, but there are many exceptions.
In general high cards are more valuable however low cards can be played profitably in certain situations where you are getting good odds both current and implied. If you never played a "money odds" game with a drawing hand consisting of low cards (especially suited) you would be severely handicapped in hold-em. Your problem is that you would not get high cards often enough to overcome the cost of putting up blinds, having to call pre-flop bets and raises only to have the flop miss you, catching a piece of the flop and then having to fold on the turn or the river, taking some bad beats, etc. It would be nice to just play AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ, and maybe AQ and TT but you would go broke if you just limited yourself to these hands in a typical hold-em game. There is one game where it would be right to just wait and play AA,KK,QQ, and AK suited while folding everything else. This would be a game where every pot was capped with many opponents. But these games are hard to find and when you do find them they usually burn out quickly as players go broke.
I suppose I am mainly concerned with early position hands, and I should have noted that. I find that I am able to play small pairs (not too small though) and suited connectors and to some extent higher runner cards in late position quite nicely. I am mystified how people seem to play low cards in early position when they do not know if (1) there will be raisers and (2) how many people will be in the pot. So maybe I should have limited my statement to early position. As I play the game more, I see how incredibly complex it can be and moreover how position is as important as the cards. I played hig limit draw poker for years and found position there quite important. He is even more so due to the # of players. But, give me those high cards.
Playing Position is what seperates the winners from the losers. In the last 2 positions you can play a lot of cards in an unraised pot you wouldn't consider playing up front and in Mid position you can play cards you might not play early.
It's one of the criteria I use to "rate" other players at my table - the quality of the cards played in what positions & I also find it informative to determine what kind of hands they are willing to call riases with.
Soundes like you are on the right track with your logic here.
I am a beginner playing the 2/4 at Paradise Poker, winning fairly consistently. I am having problems in the following situation.
I am in middle or late position and somebody from early or mid has raised pre flop. To specify the situation, let's assume there is at least one caller before the raise (thus representing the raise is probably not an attempt to steal) but that the raiser is known to raise all Group 1 and 2 and even sometimes a Group 3.
QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77. I figure that with these pairs, I am either a slight favorite over AK or AQ, or I am a big dog to a higher pair. I know there are some occasions where a raise might come from early/mid position with JJ or TT, but should I be re-raising QQ or JJ just due to this possibility? Where do I stop raising with pairs? Where do I fold? Do I even consider a call as a third option? It seems like a call is just asking for trouble. Should I be releasing the pair basically any time overcards hit and I didn't make trips on the flop?
The more analysis the better. Thanks in advance.
The only time a fold would be conceivable with QQ or JJ is if you were sure the raiser only raised with QQ, KK, and AA. A reraise may flush out AA or KK and isolate the raiser. I would normally reraise with QQ and just call with JJ.
If an ace or king flops, and the raiser bets, you're usually done for.
>>The only time a fold would be conceivable with QQ or JJ is if you were sure the raiser only raised with QQ, KK, and AA. A reraise may flush out AA or KK and isolate the raiser. I would normally reraise with QQ and just call with JJ.
I'm not so sure a reraise will make an AA or KK behind you fold... Unless I read that wrong!
don't forget that jj is a tricky case here. you either want a large number of opponents so you have the odds to flop a set, or a small number of opponents so that you have a reasonable chance of winning with top pair.
so, reraise with jacks if you're sure it will limit the field; just call if you anticipate a bunch of callers; and throw it away if, say, three people are already in for a raise.
I would usually raise with QQ and depending on the player call with JJ-99. If the player is loose and aggressive I may re-raise with JJ and TT. If the player is tight and I respect him I may fold 77, 88 before the flop.
With QQ and JJ it is very tough to fold these hands. If there are no overcards on the flop I will never fold unless the betting is very crazy. If there are no overcards on the flop I will usually raise the pre-flop raiser, if I am re-raised I will just call to the river, esecially when no overcards appear. You cannot always fear AA, KK in these situations because so many players will raise with other hands.
If an overcard appears it depends on the number of players in the hand. If there is only one or two players I will still call to the river unless there is a raise in which case I may fold. If there are two overcards and you have a hand like 77,99 I think you have to throw it away. You are likely beat and your chances of getting your card on the river or turn are too remote.
If you are specifically against an opponent who would raise in early position with a wide variety of hands (i.e. Group 1-3), I would always re-raise with any pair higher than 9's. With such an aggressive opponent, I would always try to eliminate as many people pre-flop as I could with a re-raise, and get heads up with him. With large pocket pairs, you are going to have him beat most of the time pre-flop, and would like to have as few callers as possible. Being positioned to his left will have have a even more advantageous effect.
Determining when to stop raising, when to fold, and when to just calls, really depends on what kind of opponent you are facing and how the board looks. For example,whether you should laydown QQ, when there is an Ace on board is not a simple question of yes or no. You need to know how what type of player your opponent is, what kinds of hands he would raise with, who else is in the pot, and what kind of player is he. A lot of this will come with experience.
I hope this helps.
first of all, preflop play is kind of a boring topic and most wrong choices decent players make aren't that wrong. so once you are decent there is little more to be made preflop. you should be concentrating on postflop play.
that said let's look at your situation. we are assuming someone has raised an early limper.
one thing that i think you are missing why you are a slight favorite with JJ against AK. that is assuming that one party is all in preflop. a good player in position with either will win a significant amount of money from a poor player out of position with the other.
if you plan on calling with a pair just to hit a set you need more opponents to call a raise. i would set the bar at 4. but that may be a little too low.
if you are not on the button you should be inclined to three bet hands you wish to play to make sure you get the button. three betting will also get the blinds out and maybe make the limper fold a weak top pair (with something like JT) on the flop.
if you want these things to happen tend to three bet. if you want the blinds to play and you want action from weaker hands postflop and you want hands to come in behind you be inclined to just call.
scott
4-8, Foxwoods. Table's full of loose/passive players. 6- or 7-way action 75% of the time with preflop raising on maybe 15% of the pots.
I picked up KQo 2 off the button. Four limpers around to me, I limp, button goes in, and both blinds go in for 8-way action.
Flop comes Q43r. All checked around to me. I bet, and button raises (he's been playing a lot of hands with not too much, but has consistently raised with draws or top pairs). 3 people call the 2-bet back to me, I 3-bet, and he caps. Only one other person calls the cap.
Turn is a blank, fourth suit. Checked around to the button, who bets. All call.
River is a king. Check to me, I bet out, all call.
My comments: The play up until the turn was routine. I feel that when the button capped, he probably had a solid hand (two pair, set); this was the first street that had any cap in nearly two hours of play. However, the pot is huge by the time the turn comes around. So, checking and calling for the rest of the pot may be correct. I am unsure of whether or not betting out on the river is right in this instance.
Comments?
Kings up held. The button told me afterwards he held AQo. The other caller mucked his hand.
vig i played in a 4-8 game at the woods saturday night and saw some incredible suckouts. i dont know if its the use of the $2 chips that has everyone betting either way im all for it. in the past few months i have watched many players staying until the end with little or no hope, and i was one of them. until they moved to these limits i was always stuck in the 3-6 w/kill. have you noticed a big difference in the play at the 4-8 between 3-6 or just that the players are getting nice and loose?
Can't say too well. I've only had 10 hours experience at the 4-8 limits.
Play's about the same, really. You lose some of the li'l ol' lady fish, but things stay loose/passive a good amount of the time.
No one seems to notice the no kill. When I played 3-6 w/half kill before, you'd always get 3 people every pot saying "Is this a kill?", while now, 3 people say "Oh yeah, there's no kill" anytime the pot goes up. It doesn't really have any adverse affect on the play.
And there will be some big suckouts. There are at least 2-3 people at every table who will stay the river with absolute trash all the time. Get used to it.
BUT YOU MUST AGREE THERES NOTHING BETTER THAN BETTING THE NUTS AND GETTING RAISED WHEN ONE OF THESE DONKEYS THINKS THEIR PAIR IS GONNA WIN LIKE IT DID THE LAST TWO HANDS THEY PLAYED.
Hi Guys,
I used to play 5-10 until it disappeared, and now I'm trying to decide between 4-8 and 8-16, of which I've played both. So far, I've hated the 4-8: too many loose, maniac types from the 3-6 games (one guy raised 72o for the hell of it). Unfortunately, the 8-16 so far has two or three regular maniacs and a few too many slumming 10-20 players. You'll find, I think, some tighter 5-10 players in the 4-8 game, but eventually the rake's gonna kill them, and they'll loosen up too or move to 8-16. The yellow chips will, for a while I think, create the impression that pots are bigger than they are, and you'll get many players chasing to the river. Keep track of the pot size.
BTW, introduce yourselves; ask Mary, whom I'm sure you've played against in 3-6, who I am.
John
Are you saying that there is no more 5-10 at Foxwood and that it is now 4-8 and 8-16?
Yes!
And...I was told they won't spread 6-12 because they were already spreading games too close to that limit.
JOHN, ill be down there this saturday night i must say though you are exactly correct on alot of the players. It is amazing how loose they are at 4-8 and how fast their stacks fall down when they continue to chase their hands down to the river. although i must say the 5-10 players who all play solid once they start to catch cards begin to push over these players. but i can see any slow down to the games at 4-8. i was alittle suprised last saturday night around midnight when the whole room started to clear out. guess i need to get there earlier to go fishing see ya there
I realize that the sub-thread is valid, but does anyone have any suggestions about my play here? I'm still wondering about this hand, and I'm not sure what's right.
Oh yes, the hand. I think you missed a value bet on the river; AQ would be raising away at this flop. Nothing wrong with your call of the raise; the pot's too big, and you have a good kicker. If he made a set, particularly on the flop and on the button, he wouldn't be raising. Would you have raised a set of 3's here? No, you'd wait to the turn and raise when it gets expensive.
Note: especially for these LL games, don't wait to raise the set on the flop with this kind of action. Few will spot it, and the rest won't believe it. You'll get a lot of calls. Avoid the slowplaying that others are so prone to.
John
VIG id have to say yes it is right to come out betting, he might think you are trying to buy the pot and try to raise you to get you off the hand. i think possibly he held AQ, OR two pair like you said. ok sorry just read your results, but i like your hand and many times players will play QJ the same way hoping to push you off your hand. i think possibly you could have made another bet by checking into him on the river only if you knew in this situation he would come out betting. its a judgement call, but one im sure helped you play the rest of hands alot stronger in the future with him.
One question - where can I find a passive game with so many loose calling stations??? I'd be a millionaire!
-SmoothB-
It's alluded to in the original message. Sit down in the 4-8 tables on the weekends in Foxwoods.
After the small blind checked on the turn, I would have bet putting him on the spade draw. As it turned out, he of course would have called that bet and snagged the king anyway.
I hold 65s, and make a flush on the turn. I know if another card of the suit falls on the river, I am probably dead. What are the odds that someone also made the flush on the turn (i.e. probably has be beat)?
smd,
When I hold a baby flush, the odds of it getting crammed up my keister seem to be running at about 100%, give or take 10%!
I know this doesn't answer your question, just sharing my experiences with little flushes.
On the other hand, in a wild, loose aggressive low limit game with lots of capped betting, I've seen little flushes take down some huge pots.
They never will for me as I stick to S&M's advice on maniacal games. Their advice has saved me many times over the cost of HPFAP.
Thanks,
Dan
The odds depend on how many of the flush cards on the board are lower than a 5 (if they're 432 of your suit, you have nothing to worry about!) and how many opponents are still in the hand
But let's say the board has 2 flush cards higher than yours and one lower - something like J82. There are eight unseen cards in the suit remaining, and these can form 8*7/2 = 28 possible hands. One of these, 43s, cannot beat you, so there are 27 hands that can.
There are 46*45/2 = 1035 hands that your opponents could hold. The probability of a specific opponent having you beat is therefore 27/1035 = .026 = 2.6%. Multiply this by the number of opponents still in the hand. So if there are 4 opponents left, 4 x 2.6 = 10.4% or about 9:1 against someone having higher flush cards than you.
Note that the worst possible case (you hold 43s) is only slightly less favorable: 28/1035 = 2.7%.
Of course the odds are much much greater than this since all of the possible 1035 hands are not equally likely to be held on the turn. Most of them have zero probability so you can't count them. Depending on the texture of the flop and other betting, a made flush may be more likely than not for any given opponent, even nearly 100%
It should also be noted that your technique of multiplying the odds that one opponent has a certain hand by the number of opponents is an approximation that only works well when the probabilities are small like 2.7% When they are larger (as they will be) you cannot simply add. You have to take the probability of someone NOT having the hand raised to the power of the number of players and subtract from 1.
I did some work on this problem. The way I looked at it was what is the probability that someone has a better flush draw that me before the flop. The reason I did this is because this will help determine if I play a certain hand. For example, if I have 86 suited in late position, the probability that the flush is good will help determine if I play the hand.
I worked out all of the combinations for suited cards. I will post it as soon as I organize it and format it properly for this forum
Unless the early limper would always limp in with AA or KK and then re-raise, I wouldn't automatically put him on that big of a hand. He may had a big suited Ace or (because this is low limit) even a suited connector.
Capping the pot, after being re-raised with the blinds already having called a double bet, would not get anyone out and would only serve the purpose of building a bigger pot. I think just calling the re-raise was a good idea. You probably want to see what the flop brings, as your hand is susceptible to overcards.
I also like your re-raise of the early limper on the flop. With a rag flop, more than likely you have the best hand. The raise also puts additional pressure on the blinds to cold call two bets with a sub-par hand. You would want to eliminate as many people as possible and go heads-up with the early limper. Also, just as you did, I would back off when the SB re-raises and the BB calls the raises.
When checked to you on the turn, a case could be made for betting the turn (you probably have the best hand), however I think your check behind them also makes a lot of sense. If the blinds are on any kind of a draw, they are not going to fold for a bet. The check on the river is also good, as anyone with a King will call you down. Well played.
BTW in your narrative, you are checking before blinds do.
The two other limpers were not in the blinds, they were in late position. The blinds folded before the flop.
If the there were two cold callers behind you then you were in a more precarious spot. When you raise the original raiser on the flop you are showing a lot of strength and to be re-raised implies greater strength. I don't think you can cap the betting here unless your opponent was a total maniac or a total fish. You are out of position with the 2 players behind and could be betting into a made hand. So, I like your check on the turn even more because now there is a greater chance of being raised again on the turn with the 2nd best hand. However, as Rounder pointed out, you need to have a good idea of how your opponent plays before doing this. You certainly don't want go give free cards when you do have the best hand.
One rule I live by is make the drawers pay through the nose. I bet the turn and I think you should also you lost this time but you win 2 out of 3 or so here so a bet on the turn is profitable. I maybe back off on the river with the over card hitting.
The problem was that I didn't know he was drawing. He would've played two pair or a set the same way. My real questions were should I cap pre-flop and should I bet the river when only one overcard showed up?
Yep - a pre flop cap is ok with QQ but I slow down on the river when the K hits.
I think if you really observe the players you can determine with most players and some certainty if they are on a draw or have a made hand on the flop.
A good rule to live by is Raise or fold. Whether they caught the king or not is irrelevant when speaking of long term mathematical expectation. As it turns out, bet/raise rather than check if you believe the others are on draws is the best play. For two reasons-1)make them pay to draw(whether it be for a percieved flush, or a higher pair, and 2) you may win the pot there. With the cards on the board it is likely you are the fave. Since they all checked, after raises and calls, is it likely someone has you beat? Who would call in that spot w/ a pair of k/a in that spot. Consider the amount of bets in the pot, and that they showed weakness in spots where they would have bet had they showed strength. Let me know what you all think!
I'm in the cutoff with Q 10 off. There are three limpers to me and I call. The sb calls and the BB checks. The flop comes K 10 5 rainbow. The sb bets out. He's the type that doesn't need to have a king or even a pair to bet out. BB calls and one other caller to me. I call. The turn is a Queen. Sb checks, BB checks, the limper bets. The worst hand he could have is Ace king for him to bet. He's very passive. I just call, sb calls and now the BB comes in with a check-raise. The limper calls. I'm fairly certain that I'm beat by a better two pair or a straight, but I figure the pot is big, so I call. Is this fuzzy thinking? The sb folds.
On the river, which was an Ace making any jack a straight, the BB bets out, the limper folds. I'm about 95% sure that I'm beat. Is the pot big enough for me to call anyways?
Thanks for any responses.
Mike,
I think you have to get out early on this one. With this flop and 3 people calling ahead of you, you are on a super-dangerous, costly, why did I stay, type of situation. I know that when I am winning, I get off this quickly. With KTx out there, QT in your hand, and 3 callers already -- yuck -- you are not in first place. And so many cards which come out, including the A and Q (either), are terrible for you.
At the end, with this size pot, and the small chance of a bluff, you must call. Not much he can have that you can win with though, but I've seen it...
Mark
I think calling on the flop here was a mistake. Now you're trapped. When you call with 2nd pair, and you believe that you have the odds to call (you might hit trips or 2 pair) think about what hitting 2 pair will do. In this case, getting 2 pair gives anyone with a jack an open ender.
Likewise, let's say you have
JT spades.
Flop comes QJ9.
Ok, you have 2nd pair and an open ender. That's good. But you don't want to make 2 pair here, right? That means any K or 8 makes a straight. This 2 pair will trap you. So be careful what you wish for with these hands.
Personally, I would fold on the flop. If you DO want to continue with the hand, you must raise to try to get a free card on the turn.
If you don't improve fold on the river if there is a bet.
PS I don't think I'd play QT offsuit against this many people in the first place, unless the game were really good.
-SmoothB-
A fold on the flop would have allowed you to avoid this problem. Second pair, average kicker is not a great hand with the action in front of you. Maybe if you were heads up, a call or raise would work.
If you KNOW your beat, you have no choice but to fold.
I agree with all here.
With 3 players betting/calling on the flop, you are surely beaten. You're only hope here is to get another 10 since a Q may give an opponent a straight.
So you really have 2 outs here and so you are 22.5 to 1 dog. The pot offers 9 to 1 and I don't think your implied odds can account to make up for 13 small bets (not even close).
Fold here and wait for a better flop.
theprince00
You can only play this hand btf if you can let it go if you don't flop str8 or trips. 2pair and open ended straight are hands you can play strong, but get ready for a tough beat if the board coordinates. most good players in a tough game won't even play the flop of a Q.
To answer your last question: No. If you are 95% sure you are beat you need at least 19 bets in the pot to call. I count 12 bets in the pot.
--- Carl
nt
Thanks for all the responses. I'll definetly play the hand differently (if at all) in the future. In case anyone's interested, the other player had Q5 which is the only hand he could have that I could beat.
3/6 holdem, 10 players
Preflop: UTG fold, I raise with JsJc, fold, re-raise (RR), all fold to BB who calls.
Flop: As Qs 7s BB bets all in, I call, RR call.
Turn: 3c I check, RR bets, I call.
River: Ac I check. RR bets. What would you do in this spot?
Comments welcome. Results in a bit...
Gosh, this is a tough one. I think the button likely had KK and no king of spades.
If he had a set I think he'd gladly raise that flop even with the 3 flush out there. He can't put you on a flush right now. You raised preflop in early position, so the best possible flush you could have would be KJ of spades. I would't put you on a flush. If I were the button and had AA I'd raise, if I had AK and the K of spades I'd definitely raise.
With this kind of flop, no matter what you have (unless it's the nut flush) any good player should play it fast. No sense in letting someone beat you for cheap. And anyone who is going to call one bet will call 2.
Your best bet on the flop may have been to raise the all in bet. You have the second nut flush draw and a pair. I think you pair is beaten.
By just calling, and checking and calling on the turn you are in muddy waters.
If you had raised on the flop, it is possible that you could have gotten KK with no K of spades to lay the hand down. I'm pretty sure 2 red kings will often fold if you bet again on the turn. No sense in paying 2 more BB to find out there's an ace or a flush out there against him.
I'm pretty sure you're beaten. Whether you call or not depends on your read of RR. Hmmmmm. Obviously you should call some of the time and fold some of the time, but the % is the real question. Call 20% and fold 80% of the time? That sounds pretty good to me.
Hope this helps.
-SmoothB-
Fold. It seems to me like your opponent has an Ace.
Unless RR is an idiot you fold.
3/6 holdem, 10 players
Preflop: UTG fold, I raise with JsJc, fold, re-raise (RR), all fold to BB who calls.
Flop: As Qs 7s BB bets all in, I call, RR call.
Turn: 3c I check, RR bets, I call.
River: Ac I check. RR bets. What would you do in this spot?
I fold. My thinking is as follow: there are just too many hands that RR can have to beat me when he 3 bets me preflop. He could have AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ,KQs,JJ. The only hand I could possible beat is TT, so I fold.
The result:
BB: Qc7h - two pairs
RR: TsTd - pair ten only
BB took down most of the pot while RR took down $12.
Perhaps I should have replied before reading the result, but its too late for that now.
The player betting allin could have anything... People just want to get that last bet in the pot, win, buy in again, or go home. Still, I would fold here, because their are 2 overcards on the board, and RR behind you. If RR is a loose raiser, you might want to raise the allin bet, because at this point he KNOWS that you're not bluffing, so he can't play unless he has a real hand. Still, for this to be correct, you must expect to beat BB, and that may not be the case here.
When RR bets the turn, you KNOW he's not on a bluff, because he needs to beat the allin to win the pot anyway. You can also figure on paying another bet on the river, and even if you have him beat, BB may beat you both. Just fold. You'll even get to see his hand, and either kick yourself or pat yourself on the back.
As it turns out, RR was overplaying his hand all along. Maybe you could have knocked him out with a raise on the flop, but it wouldn't have won you the pot, just saved you one big bet on the turn.
Did the 2nd ace on the river make you fold? If one of your opponents had an ace, you were beat all along. I don't think it swings a fold to a call, but at least a 2nd ace falling reduces the chances that one of your opponents has one.
Just because you have a big pair in a raised pot doesn't mean you have a ticket to the river.
B$
Hi all, I want to know if I made a good laydown here. This is very low limit on Paradise .50-1. I get QQ in middle position with 2 limpers (limper to my right called Stupid). I raise and get reraised by player Crazy behind me. Total of 5 players see the flop of KJx.
Flop action: Checked to Crazy who bets. Everyone calls including me.
Turn action: KJxx. Checked to Crazy who bets. Everyone folds except Stupid to my right and I call.
River action: KJxx2 Checked to Crazy who bets. Stupid on my right raises. I fold my QQ. Is this the right move????? There was a straight possibility on board though I can't imagine anyone having 2 cards where they would stay for that on the flop... I put Stupid on 2 pair, Crazy on AK or KQ or Kx. HUGE pot at this point (14BB+).
It's hard to put "Stupid" and "Crazy" players on a hand. ;)
Actually, in this hand, I would probably bet the flop to see where I'm at instead of calling all the way then you have no idea what your opponents have. However, if Stpuid check raise on the river, then it's probably a good time to fold. Most likely he's got at least two pairs unless he's a completely fish.
Well it wasn't a good laydown cause Stupid had T7s which gave him K high, and Crazy had pocket 77! He took down the pot with 77, and my QQ's were good!!!
This happens to me a lot. Another time today I raised with TT and the betting preflop was capped. The on the flop I bet and was raised, re-raised, and capped with three cards lower than a T. Then on the turn almost the same thing happened, so I threw my T's away. Turns out I had the best hand the the winner won with A9 (there was a 9 on the flop!!!). Three poeple at the river. :( This is .50-1 game on Paradise....
I've watched those types of games where players stay in with anything. It's tough to play when a player will consistantly re-raise with only second or third pair - you can't seem to peg him with anything. I think there are two schools of thought on this:
1) Hunker down and play tighter. 2) Loosen up but play tighter than the field.
What happens when you play tighter is that you won't play as many hands. Sure you'll miss some hands and take a few bad beats but your variance should not be extreme.
On the other hand if you loosen up you'll see your bankroll take some rather large roller coaster rides. You'll also have to be careful if the table starts tightening up and you are still playing very loose.
You may want to either play tighter and keep a consistent edge at such low limits or move up to a little higher table. Even at 1-2, 2-4, 3-6 tables you'll see the same thing. Maybe not as much as a .5-1, but its there.
J.
Typical low limit play... My advise...Play by the book. You either check and call all the way, or fold when the flop is strong against you. Many times you will toss the winning hand. That is just part of poker. Playing at these kinds of tables gives you one gurantee. When you get good cards the idiots will be there to pay you off. You will need the ability to lay down big pairs if you are ever going to ever move up. Good Luck
The hand where you had pocket T's was a good laydown, and you should continue to fold in situations like this. My advice would be to quit playing in a 50 cent game-- I'm guessing you would eventually like playing for a bit more money (even, say, 3-6), and a game this wild, with absolutely no regard for the money wagered, will not serve as a good training ground for games where the bets at least matter a little.
Tony, the .50/1.00 tables are a horrible place to play good poker. What is a good laydown even at a 6/12 table, is a hand to raise with at a .50/1.00 table, and, vice versa. In other words, get off the .50/1.00 table before it drives you nuts! If you are playing this table to get used to playing for money? then...no, even then i don't understand it. Start playing at least 3/6. You sound as if you are trying to play right, and, .50/1.00 will only teach you to lose confidence in premium hands Buck
First of all, the names of your opponents are just great. =)
second, look what you said: "I put Stupid on 2 pair, Crazy on AK or KQ or Kx"
when did you put them on this? If you put them on it at the beginning of the hand, get out ASAP. 22-1 odds on spiking your Q, and the odds are not there.
I agree with George when he says to bet out right away. Find out exactly where you stand. If you get raised, they are trying to tell you something. If you get called, you may have the best hand and can bet out on the turn.
I am not sure if you should have called the river or not...
Personally, i would bet the flop. If raised, i get out and do not lose more money with this hand.
JB-G
Time to fold is on the flop. Once at the river you must call the STUPID and CRAZY players. You win enough times to cover the more often times you lose.
Your laydown was good. I can't believe QQ could have won that pot.
I don't like your play on the flop. When you have a big pair and an overcard comes and there is a bet and at least 2 callers, throw it away. Especially in a loose low limit game. Maybe not in a game with tricky opponents, or if it looks like there might be at least 1 draw on the board. Ok maybe you are mucking a winner one time in 7 or 8. But you'll pay at least 2 more BB to see your pony lose. Just throw it away and wait for next time when you get a flop of Q 7 2 rainbow with those queens.
If you DID want to play the hand from the flop I think you have to raise. I am not sure which position you were in. If the bet was directly before you raise - that might knock the rest out and let you have the hand heads up. Then he might check the turn - you could check behind him and pay off on the river if he bets and you think you have a winner.
This way you can see the river for 1 1/2 BB more, not 2. Also, if he leads at you on the turn, muck.
That is one little tip I can share with you - if you are heads up with a player who is reasonable and not terribly tricky, do this:
If you have QQ and the flop is Kxx, if he bets, raise. If he leads at you on the turn, more often that not you are beaten.
This is true for obvious playing opponents. It may not be true for tougher opponents who may semibluff bet a draw on the turn. Or totally goofy players who are just screwing around or have no clue, are drunk, etc.
To recap - if he is right behind you, raise. If led into on the turn, probably fold. If there are other callers when you raise and someone leads at the pot on the turn, fold.
I might take some heat for this but I can assure you that the money you let slip away those few times when you have a winner will not make up for the money (2BB or more) that you lose when you stick around.
-SmoothB-
Ok I read the rest of these postings including the outcome of the hand.
The last thing you want to do is think too hard about this hand. I'll tell you why. You may get the impression that you should NEVER fold your QQ when a K shows up, because you will remember this one time.
People let bad laydowns haunt them. The truth is that mathematically you should have made the laydown, it just turns out that in this case it was a mistake. More often than not it will be correct to fold and you will make more money in the long run if you do.
The last thing you ever want to do is let this experience in a $0.50 - $1 game cause you to make a mistake in a 40-80 game later!
-SmoothB-
I started to play holdem approx. 1 year ago. I was hooked from the begining. I have read anything that I could have gotten my hands on including:
Low limit holdem by lee jones
holdem poker for adv. players by slansky and malmuth
holdem execelence by lou kreiger
to name a few.
I have worn the cover off of these, as well as the wilson software holdem program.
After paying the price of tuition for the first six months I have started to have some success. Now I am regularly beating the 2/4 games at the Taj and Foxwoods at a rate of $12.00 per hour over the last 6 months.
The last time I played I gave 5/10 a try. I broke even over 5 hours. Clearly the game is played a little differently at this level. I saw some more agressive players, and a great deal more winning with over cards. I also saw people playing hands that would not have been playable in all sorts of odd positions.
Because I am planing to stay at this level, I am looking for any advise that any readers of this have on adjustments I should be making to my game.
Also any reading recomendations that have good info for this game (the higher end of the small stakes spectrum)
thank you for any assistance
Brad Gansberg
I imagine that you will see some difference in the way people play between 2-4 and 5-10. Casual players who just play for fun are more likely to play in the cheapest game they can.
I played in a 3-6 game there at Foxwoods once and I found the game very easy to beat. One older woman who flopped a nut straight and never put a single bet into the pot with it. Why? There was a 2 flush on the board and she didn't want to build a pot for someone who was going to make a flush anyway.
I still don't know why she didn't bet the river. Oh yeah I remember the board paired.
Just playing for 5 hours at ANY limit won't give you the tiniest bit of reference for how you'll do over 1000 hours.
You say that you have been beating the 2-4 game for 12 dollars per hour over the last 6 months. How many hours are we talking about here? 1000 hours or 50 hours? 50 hours is far far too small a sample to gauge your potential for success.
I imagine that if you have played over 1000 hours, read all the books, and really are a consistent winner at 2-4 you should have no problem beating 5-10 and maybe even 10-20. Although I wouldn't move up that fast because you might be playing scared - you can't win that way.
Anyway, good luck and have fun!
-SmoothB-
id think that with the smaller % rake as you play higher you would do better if you can make the minor adjustments to the better players. read all the books from the authors here and bob ciaffone in that order(i am prejudiced) good luck. let us know how youare doing after a represenative sample of hours.
If you have about $2500 and have studied as hard as you claim, you should be able to beat 5-10 games. You are up against better players than in 2-4, but really 5-10 is better because the drop is less severe and you may play better against "tougher" opponents.You will still see people making a LOT of dumb errors on starting hands and chasing the flop with no overcards. Do your best every time out and $20/hr profit is within your reach.
I read somewhere the following about JT, I was wondering what others thought of this:
"The K-Q is a hand that you never want to play in a full ring game, in particular. The Q-J is the same type of hand. In fact, I give a little more value to the J-10 because you can make more straights with the hand than you can make with the K-Q or Q-J. I wouldn't stand a raise with J-10, but I might play it in late position."
When playing high unsuited cards, you've got to understand that these hands don't like a crowd. The suited connectors and small pairs are then getting implied odds from you. Of course I like to play KQo-QJo-JTo better than K-Jo, Q-To for example because there's no gap. I play them in late position or if I'm sure that in this game, I won't get a 5-6 handed family pot.
These are definitly drawings hands. You want a nut straight draw here. Top pair will often get outkicked if there's too much action or an overcard can kill you.
The JTo has a little more value in a multiway pot. There are better str8 possibilities. Same for me I'd stand a raise (one raise) from late position cause my position can make up for it. You can better raise for a free card on the flop for example. I'll call or fold depending on the raiser too. KQo is better short-handed. In a big family pot (5+ players on the flop), Top pair does not hold up often enough for me to call 2 raise cold. Now we are talking about offsuit hands here... Suited would make the hand playable and even worth reraising with if I can get a multiway pot.
Low-limit Hold'em is a game of big draws. High suited connectors. This is how you get the money here.
theprince00
KQ offsuit is no better than KJ offsuit in straight making possibilities. They can both make exactly one straight.
-SmoothB-
They both make 2 str8's. Both to the nut straight. That the nice thing about JT. It makes 4 nut straights. This makes it playable in late position multiway for a single bet.
.
"Of course I like to play KQo-QJo-JTo better than K-Jo, Q-To for example because there's no gap. "
KQ value is in it's high card value. It makes only 2 straights where KJ makes the same straights + can make a 1 card straight to the Jack. KJ is weaker only because of its weaker kicker.
If you're playing JTo in late position for 2 bets then you are playing too loose in my opinion.
Here's my view on playing these hands. First of all, KQo is clearly better than QJo or JTo. A lot of hands in hold'em are won with top pair top kicker and KQo is clearly the best of for making that sort of hand. I'll almost never play JTo unless in the blinds. I think that when you are first to act in a normal game you should either raise or fold so when under the gun with these hands I will always muck them. If you raise you allow dominating hands (hands that you have 3 or fewer outs against) to call you cold and you lose a lot of your money in hold'em by coming up with second best hand. When I am first in from middle or late position I will raise with KQo but muck JTo or QJo (but will raise on the button if first in with QJo). When there are several limpers in front of you and you are in late position, you need to raise with a hand like KQo. You probably have the best hand (most better hands would have raised) and you want to charge drawing hands double to see the flop. This hand has reverse implied odds and you want to wreck the implied odds of drawing hands by charging them extra to see the flop. if a K or Q is the high card on the flop you almost certainly have top pair with best kicker. I'm not sure if this is the best way to play this situation but it has been working well for me. Rob
none of these hands are worth playing for a raise as they are likely dominated unless you are playing the blinds against a steel raise from the cutoff or button.
Some of this thread is discussing dominated hands like KQo, KJo and KTo. While I will almost always throw these away if I am put in a position to call 2 bets cold, I am often more tempted to call a single raise if I already have a bet in the pot, either from limping in late or being in the blind, and there are not a lot of people left to act behind me. Is this reasonable play? Often it depends on who is doing the raising, but would I be losing money if I was inclined to drop these hands for just one more bet?
Thanks,
Marc
Just want to add that I read this in Champion No Limit and Pot Limit Holdem by McEvoy and Cloutier....
You're talking about a different game than is being discussed here. This is low limit which is as far as you can get from no/pot limit.
Heck, 67s may be sometimes worth a raise in any position just to deceive the opponent(s). In lowlimit that deception is almost worthless!
JT offsuit is a hand that I will simply never play except:
1) When posting 1/2 of a bet in the SB, or
2) When I'm first to act in late position - and then I raise with it
JT offsuit is a trash hand. If you play it only to rely on it's straight making capabilities, you will lose money in the long run.
I don't have exact numbers in front of me, but these are pretty close:
You will flop a straight about 1% of the time. That's pretty good but your straight is more vulnerable than others - other Broadway straight cards may have gutshots and counterfeit you or beat you.
You will flop an open ender about 10% of the time. You'll bring it home about 30% of the time. Some of that time it will lose to a flush, full house or bigger straight.
IE you have JT
flop comes 987
turn comes T
QJ flopped a gutshot and just beat you
If you do the math then you will see that it simply isn't worth it. And if it IS worth it, your earnings potential is so tiny that you will lose more with it when you play it badly than you'll ever make with it. IE flop top pair and lose to a bigger kicker. If you are less than an expert player and reader I guarantee that the money you lose getting trapped with it will outstrip the money you win with those straights.
Now, JT SUITED is another matter altogether! The extra equity you get in flush making ability makes a HUGE difference. The odds of flopping a flush or 4 flush are similar to those for flopping a str8 or open ender. Now you have *2%* chance of flopping a made hand and a whopping *20%* chance of flopping an excellent draw.
I'll play JT suited, but extremely rarely will I play JT offsuit.
-SmoothB-
I totaly agree and have started to implement the same with K10,Q10. If there suited raise or call, if unsuited pitch them in the muck, unless your in the blinds.
My friend and I both feel that the above statement is absurd. The KQo is a MONEY-MAKER! I've attempted to steer away from playing it in early position, but otherwise I feel that it is a quite playable hand as long as there is no raise. QJ, and by the way KJ are more suspect. I think they should only be played from mid-late position.
I will occasionally play KQ and QJ offsuit in late position. I'll raise with them if first in on the cutoff or button. But I won't play them in early position unless the game is really passive.
KQ offsuit is a classic trap hand. You will make so many second best hands with it that you won't make much money in the long run.
What happens if UTG limps in and then you limp with it, and then someone behind you raises. What now? You are in big trouble. You have to give him credit for a legitimate raise beacuse there were 2 early position limpers.
Now what happens when you flop top pair with no ace on board, bet it, and get raised by a solid player? Uh oh. Looks like you just threw at least 4 BB down the drain.
Anyway, go ahead and play KQ - it does win it's fair share. But be very cautious of it in early position. And for gosh sakes don't raise with it unless you are 1st in in last 2 positions!
-SmoothB-
Splitting the Hold'em Forum into so many categories is a poor approach. It makes navigation and participation more awkward and finding specific threads difficult. How subtle the difference between 'General Theory' and Hold'em 'General [Theory]'. Must be particularly hard on Schizophrenics.
it was a clever scheme by our advertisers to subject you to extra ads so you will spend all your money on other things and have nothing left to gamble. wait to see what we have in store for you in the future. just foolinghahahahahahahaha.
In my humble opinion, splitting the Forum was an excellent idea whose time has long come. What is more, I am strong proponent that the Forum be further split into 7CS/8 and Omana/8, because in the Midwest there is growing interest in these two games. This way, the Forum will serve as an very useful tool for poker education and the multitude of poker games aggrandizement.
Kudos to the 2+2 management. And proceede on ......
By splitting up the forum this much the smaller limit player will not get responses from many of the well or even lessor known "pros". While you could post before and get a wide range of responses now they will be limited as we can see already.
Hi There,
I'm looking for comments on this 6-12 hand. Pretty loose-passive game, I get A6o in the BB, 4 limpers, SB folds.
Flop comes 643r. I'm not too sure what to do here, the two people in latish position seem like they would bet their no-pair overcards, so I decide to checkraise. Good move or bad move?
UTG bets out, everyone calls, I raise anyway, everyone calls.
Turn is a J of the fourth suit.
I bet out, UTG folds, two callers.
River is Q, I check, it checks around through people drawing to straights (one gutshot). I take it down.
How many mistakes did I make? It ended up ok, but I felt strange about it afterwards.
The checkraise was supposed to get people to call two bets and thin things, but the early bet messed that up. Should I just call here? I was sure that I was curently ahead on the flop, but was going to be unsure on the turn. Better to just call here, or just bet out on the flop? Betting out seemed kinda weak, as everyone is going to call one bet.
Betting the turn seemed correct.
Should I bet the river? There are two overcards out there, so I just decided to check and call...
Any comments appreciated,
Marc
These can be hard hands to play since you have such awful position. I think the check raise is good because it suggest more strength than a pair of sixes. Because you are in the blind you actually have more deception going for you than you otherwise would have had you limped in. They know you are playing on your blind and could have any two cards. If I was at the table I'd probably put you on two pair.
I think the turn bet is good.
I'd bet the river and fold to a raise. Checking here screams that you are scared of the queen. You are lucky no one made a play at you. Would you have called a bet on the river? You are less likely to get raised by a pair of queens since your check raise on the flop suggested you had two pair. So the worst is you'll probably get a caller.
If you were in last position obviously checking behind your oponents would be correct.
I just don't like check raising a flop. I think beting it out here is OK same on the turn lead betting is my prefered move with this hand.
RIver - if you bet and are called you are most likley beat and you and you can't call a raise - the check was OK.
I think you played the hand well - If I make mistakes I'd rather make them on the aggressive side - you were aggressive and that can't be bad.
In LL I can't ever remember a check raise ever thinning the field - it will get you free cards on the turn and set up a check call on the river but to think you are gonna thin the field on the flop is wrong headed thinking.
Hey Rounder,
Thanks for reading my post. When you say "I just don't like check-raising a flop..." Do you mean in this specific case or in general?
Thanks,
Marc
I don't think much can be gained from a check raise on the flop - a free card on the turn for sure - If I have a hand strong eneough to check raise on the flop it is strong eneough to check raise on expensive street. Don't get me wrong I do check raise on the flop but never to thin the field it is for a free card on the turn and/or river or to set up a bluff.
So for value save it for the turn.
Hi Rounder,
In general, if you want to check raise the turn, how often do you (1) check the flop to set up a check raise and how often do you (2) bet the flop and then check the turn?
Marc that really has a lot to do with the personality of the table. There are times I flop the nuts and check it then again I may bet it out.
Little story about this - I was in a tournament and twice flopped monsters and checked only to raise on the turn and bet the river - both times I had to show the hands. On a certain hand I raised and had nothing on the flop containing a J I checked then bet the turn only cuz I thought no one hit anything - the woman next to me said I saw you do the same thing with monsters earlier and showed me a J and mucked. I won unopposed just because of previous plays.
So it depends - guess the trick is not to get cute with the wrong crowd it will be lost on them and with the "right" crowd you have to mix it up so you are not predictable.
Usually if I bet the flop I am committed to the river so I will also bet the turn and river. If I check the flop it is to let them catch up but I only do it with a genuine monster - never with a vulnerable hand.
Usually I understand when I am out of a hand and plan to check fold on the flop when I don't hit and pot is to small to draw to.
Here is a hand I played last week Soaring Eagle 6/12 I'm late with 22 and see the flop - flop is J55 and a early limper bets now this kid is over playing his hands and I am dying to isolate him. He likes to bet and raise with a scarry board. Turn is a 2 giving me a full house. I call his bet. River is a blank he bets I raise he reraises and I reraise him well he throws over an Axs in disgust.
It's all about the other guy.
"It's all about the other guy..."
Couldn't agree more. Thanks for all the responses...
Marc
rounder one problem with your advice, given his position what turn card other than an ace could he bet confidently? anything less than a 6 is bad and anything greater makes his pair much shakier on the turn. At this point he has a slightly made hand, and overcards are drawing hands, I think he must make them pay to draw on the flop here. unfortunately his checkraise did not work because of the position of the lead better. I think the play here is to bet out, and raise/reraise as the opportunity presents itsself. no you may not drive out AK or even KJ but you just might knock out T8 or T9 of a suit that didnt fall or other mediocre overcards, and in this situation every card in the muck counts. now if you had the wonderful fortuine of having a maniac on the button or somebody you knew would bet or raise for you then a checkraise would be right, but in low limit all people know is that it is one more bet to go, not how it got to be that way. thats just my opinon I could be wrong.
With that flop and seeing it is LL - I'd just be lead betting until someone told me I didn't have the best hand. Sure the over cards are scarry but I would keep leading assuming draws. Maybe I lose but I'm going down swinging.
I just don't see a check raise being relevent in this hand.
Yesterday I was playing 3-6 HE at Commerce. The table was typical low limit with lots of players in each hand with junk. I had two similar hands that were disappointing to me. I will ask you posters about one of them.
I had As Ks under the gun and raised. The betting was raised twice and I capped it. The flop came 10h 10c 9c. I led out with a bet. It was raised and re-raised before it came back to me. There were only one or two that had dropped out at this point.
I saw three problems with the board. It was coordinated for a straight draw, it was coordinated for a flush draw and there was a good probability that someone had trip 10’s. With the raises, I felt that even if I hit either the ace or the king on the turn, my hand had a very high probability of losing and I could put a lot more money in on the later streets. I decided not to chase with this hand. I folded.
The pot became huge. The turn was an Ace and the river was a King. In the final showdown, an Ace-rag won the pot. The post flop raisers had been betting their straight and flush draws and trying to build the pot. Their pre-flop raises were on crap. This was the second time in less than an hour that I gave up a big pot in this manner. Please comment on my play and my decision to fold.
Your pre-flop play was fine. However, given how loose your game was, I might have opted to limp in and see the flop cheaply. It didn't sound like your going to thin the field no matter how many times you raised.
Other than that I think the rest of your play was fine, although, I wouldn't have bet the flop for the exact reasons you folded your hand. Save the bet and get on to the next hand.
You may have over played the hand (probably) pre flop and with that flop - you check fold.
Sorry - your big slick turned into - walkin' back to Houston.
I think AK is the most misplayed hand around and we should talk about it a lot more.
typical Sat night 3-6 holdem. UTG posts a straddle and I am right after him. I get dealt aces. I raise it to $9. All fold to the button , who calls, the blinds fold and the straddler caps it. The button and I both call.
Flop comes 7-8-2 rainbow
Straddler checks, I bet, button raises, straddler and I call.
Turn is a 7
The straddler comes out betting, I raise (correctly?), the button reraises, the straddler caps it and I muck the aces.
River is a K (no flush possibility on board)
Straddler checks, button bets and straddler calls.
Did I make a "big laydown" i.e. incorrect?
(Results to follow......)
That depends on the players and the feel of the game. Was it a wild game? In that case, three handed, I wouldn't lay those aces down.
Consider your opponents. If the button is a real maniac, the type who will ram and jam with open enders even on the turn, then the straddler may have known this, realized that his pair of eights beat the maniac, and raised when he saw you check calling.
On the flop I'd do the capping. If you think you have the best hand on the flop then get your money in there. Then, if you start to get nervous, try to see the river as cheaply as possible.
One thing about wild games is that you MUST send the message that if you are going to be in there with your AA KK and QQ, it is going to cost anyone who wants to take trash up against you the MAX. That means capped pre flop AND post flop if you have anything to do about it. Let them compete against each other for second pair draws all they want - but send the message that they will pay for them.
Here is another thing - in early position you should probably check raise quite a bit when you are sure that someone will definitely bet. Don't let those bullys scare you into playing passively when you have a hand. Make them pay for their insolence in wanting to beat your AA with offsuit trash.
Sometimes if the really passive fish see you and the bully duking it out they might stay out of your way.
Here is a cool way to take the wind out of a bully's sails. If you flop a really big hand, let him to the betting and then nail him on the river.
There are some bully's out there who HATE to have people try to push them around like that. I actually had one bully raise and reraise me numerous times when I had flopped quad tens! I slowplayed it, let him do the betting to keep people in, and then pounded him on the river. I had pissed him off so much that he couldn't take it.
Anyway, hope this helps.
-SmoothB-
3/6 no fold em - I like the 2nd 7 giving 2 pair - I'd have reraised the flop and call the turn cap. If the button is on ton 78 I'd be suprised. BUT I'd have to see theis one to the river.
I hate to say this but it depends. A lot has to do with the players your against and the type of game your in. But in general in a no foldem hold-em game I am going to be hardpressed to lay my hand down on fourth street. They can have just about anything and they simply will have to show me a better hand.
Bruce
I would have to agree with my peers on this. It really depends on the players. My experience shows that most LL games, players play a lot of trash and you'll have to keep those premium hands and make the guys with the trash pay. Sure you'll see a few fluke hands beat your AA to the board you mentioned, but I'd have to press this hand.
J.
I really think you should have capped the betting out on the flop also. What could the button, and straddler have for you to not reraise the flop? Preflop the button just calls, no raising, the straddler capped it, which makes me put him on my hand, a'ks, or, a big pair. Turn, I put the button on a straight draw, most likely the 10,9, a favorite hand to play from button it seems...and he is trying to represent a set, plus he has the perfect hand to ram and jam with. River can only help straddle as I read the hand, if it helped anyone..possibly giving him k's with ace kicker...so, yes, with the way the preflop action went, and following betting, I'd say it was a bad laydown. Having said all this, it still wouldnt suprize me greatly if either button or straddle had pocket deuces and stood to capped out bets, this is low limit remember. Buck
The straddler only showed one card, a seven. Then the button showed pocket kings.
I agree I should have reraised on the flop. I had no reason to think I was still not in the lead (I don't think either of these guys would have been reraising preflop with 88 or 77 or 22).
However, once they started reraising and capping on the turn, I felt that I was beat in at least one place if not both. I thought maybe one of them had 78s. If it had been heads up, then yes, I would go to the showdown.
The real surpise is that the straddler capped it preflop with 7x.
This was a must move game and I had only seen about 15 hands at this point. This was the first hand I played. The few hands I saw them play had been reasonable up to that point (no trash). Was the straddler steaming? Did the KK outplay me?
"The real surpise is that the straddler capped it preflop with 7x."
ARE YOU KIDDING?
A straddler is almost ALWAYS a maniac. Why would you be suprised to see a maniac cap with rags huh?
Straddle is the worst bet in all of gambling except in one situation I found in Europe which was still marginal.
You don't need more than 15 hands to know this guy is a maniac and treat him as such.
think about all the many times you as a good player have been in the big blind, somebody raises and you take a peak at your cards only to find 94o or some other such trash. now think about all the times in any position you get delt a trash hand. now why in the hell would anybody in his right mind voluntarely pay for a hand he or she could see for free??????? obviously this player knows very little to nothing about the game. maby at larger limits this could have some sort of odd value but, at limits where you have to show multiple people the winning hand to take it down this is obviously the most rediculious play anybody could make. not that I mind too much when somebody else does it because it makes my chances at a nice profit for the night skyrocket.
4-8 Hold’em in a Northern California game. I can’t recall exactly but this is very close to the play. I’m sitting late-middle with A5c. There are some limpers (3 I think), I call,the button calls and BB and SB are in the hand. No raise pre-flop. The flop comes J5A rainbow. There is one bet to me and I make it 2. All players call. Turn is an 8. All check to me and I bet. I think 2 players fold and the rest call. The river brings another J. First position players comes out betting. One player folds and the next player has some chips in his hand and his hand crosses the “betting line” before he says raise. The house did not allow the raise because he did not have enough chips to make a full raise. He made a fuss but the house stays with its decision. It’s now $8 to me and I figure one of these guys has to have a J because they were calling prior to the river. As I mucked my hand I had lifted my cards kind of high and the button saw my A5c and he then shows me his pocket kings and mucked his hand also.
As it turned out the better had pocket nines and the potential raiser has 89 suited. Two pair 99JJ wins the pot. The button and I were both shaking our heads since we got hosed. I guess that’s life in low limit. This hand has really bothered me because I keep thinking of the pot I should or could have won. I was way up in winnings but I try not to let that influence my decisions when playing a hand. Did I laydown to easy?
All comments welcome.
I think so, I count 15.5 big bets in the pot, with those odds I think that you have to make this crying call, think about it, you have to now make 16 correct laydowns to account for what you lost here. with a reasonable hand, and no show of strength here, and the fact that a lot of low limit players Think when the board pairs and that gives them two pair, thier hand has somehow improved, by my count the only hands that beat you are two jacks, any jack, 88, 55, AJ and any ace kicker better than 5 and aa. all of these I think you would have heard more from earlier in the hand, except things like A7 and other ace/bad kicker hands. maby the quality of the players you were up against could change this, but I have seen too many players play Q5o in this situation to fold for one bet on the river if I had anything. thats just my opinion I could be wrong.
this sounds like the same situation I have been in a number of times. I would have done the same thing. I would figuer the odds are someone has the Jack with the ace. However, the more I read about implied odds has changed my mind. I would now take that chance due to the fact that I had a strong hand and the reward would warrant the risk. I don't know if that is the correct thinking or not, but none the less that is what I would do!
Nathan, I agree. I would play this same scenario differently now. I would call at least and perhaps even raise depending on the players. It took me a couple of days to get over this one play because I feel that I did not think deep enough during the hand.
As it turned out I think the initial bettor made an attempt to steal the pot and got away with it (Rik). And as M.G pointedd there was at least 15.5 big bets and well worth the one bet to me. Watching the winner stack those chips made me sick.
There is always something to learn bad play.
Nathan, I agree. I would play this same scenario differently now. I would call at least and perhaps even raise depending on the players. It took me a couple of days to get over this one play because I feel that I did not think deep enough during the hand.
As it turned out I think the initial bettor made an attempt to steal the pot and got away with it (Rik). And as M.G pointedd there was at least 15.5 big bets and well worth the one bet to me. Watching the winner stack those chips made me sick.
There is always something to learn from bad play.
This is a spot where many players attempt to bluff. The board either pairs or a third flush card hits and some guy will often take a shot. Either on the 4th card or the 5th card. I never fold in this spot because they try it so often (someone tried it yesterday when the 3rd suited card hit 4th and I took his 2 big bets).
If someone else raised then I would have folded, except if the raiser was short stacked (I`m not sure if the attempted raiser was in your case) when they will often put their last few chips in when they have very little chance to win.
Hi all...
Here's a hand I played on Friday night. (5-10)
The table is typical. 2-3 good players, most average, some very weak.
I'm on the button and get KQ off. 3 players limp to me I call, blinds call. 6 handed on the flop.
Flop : K 8 5 rainbow. Check, check, check then a guy, who's has been betting and bluffing way way way too much bets. I was going to raise but the lady to my right raises.
Now she's one of the good players here so I'm sure she's got a king. The major flaw in her play is that she never raises pre-flop. (I saw her play KK without a raise for example). So she could have AK here. But she could also have KQ-KJ-KT or maybe less considering who bet.
I flat called. Was this an error here?????? SB folds. BB calls, Fold, bluffer calls.
Turn is a blank, BB check, bluffer checks, lady bets, we all call.
River is a 6. We all check.
Bluffer had nothing, lady had KT and now the BB (who is a very weak lady) shows a 5 and a 6 for 2 pair. "//$%?$&%?**
Ok I got rivered, I'm ok with that. Ijust want to know if you would have reraised on the flop or maybe you would have raised on the turn. The weak lady probably wold have not called neither of the raises.
What do you think??????
theprince00
In hindsight, it would be very easy to say you missed a re-raise on the flop or on the turn. Either of which may have gotten the BB out. In reality, I think most of us have been guilty of playing a hand too passively and getting beat on the river by someone we should have raised out. "If only I had known...."
I think your hand illustrates how difficult limit poker is sometimes. A lot of times you simply do not know with any clear certainty if you hold the best hand. And you try not to put too many bets in with what could be the 2nd best hand.
I think whether you played this particular hand "correctly" is not as important as using this hand as a guide, the next time you are in a similar situation. Thinking about certain situations, like this one, when away from the poker table can be immensely educational (at least for me).
I hope this helps.
I would have re-raised on the flop. If I have this hand in early position I am inclined to check-raise. By the lady raising in front of you, you force everyone to call 2 bets cold, which probably gets you heads up with her. I'd take my chances in that case.
I think I reraise the flop to see if I am up against AK and to make the drawers pay for the draws and get the under pairs to fold (maybe).
Here's my take on the hand. With KQo on the button and 3 limpers you should raise pre-flop. Anyone with a better hand would have raised so you probably have the best hand right now and you want to punish the people who limped in with week hands. Also, you shouldn't allow the blinds to see a free flop. You also have great position and should be getting more money in the pot while you have the best of it. How often have you limped only to cringe when it gets raised behind you. You need to do this to your opponents when you have the best hand.
On the flop When the lady raises it can mean 1 of a few things. A raise usually means top pair best kicker, 2 pair, sometimes a set, trying for a free card (from late position), isolate the bettor, or buy the button. If she has top pair she could think best kicker is a Q,J, or T since there was no pre-flop raise which AK usually does. 2 pair is a possibility. I doubt there is a set since it would wait for the turn to raise since there is no flush draw and the only open ender is for someone holding 67. I doubt she is trying for a free card since there doesn't seem to be draws out there. She may perceive the bettor as weak (as you did) and be trying to isolate him. Or she may be trying to knock you out so that she can act last on all future rounds. From the possible scenarios I think raising is your best move. If she really has you beat you'll hear from her on the turn. You also will knock out people with lower pairs that are drawing (but 2 bets should have been enough to do this). I think that if you had raised the flop, it may have been checked to you on the turn where you could fire again.
just my 2 cents, Rob
KQo does not play well in a crowd. if you're going to play it, raise preflop. you'll probably chase out the blinds, and perhaps even a limper.
the flop call is also a mistake. you either have to reraise or fold here. given that lr (lady on right) may be raising to get heads-up with an obvious bluffer, a reraise may be the better choice.
I couldn't agree more with viking. Hitting a pair on the flop is not strong with the cards that flopped, with 6 players. Consider her position-if she reads you for 2 paints, she has 9 outs for a hand that played in a large pot(ie good call) and maybe more outs, depending on the blank. I read a lot of postings on here, and most of them play well, but do not think past the "what does my opponent have" stage. This was the problem. Basically, this is why players get gutted in multiway flops with pairs. If even one person calls, you figure they must be some draw. Her 5-6 with that flop is a draw. Always beware of multiway callers when you only have a pair. Think, is my opponent is on a draw, how can I get them to fold-usually a two-bet call will work. On the other hand, if you had folded pre-flop, you can't be faulted. K-Q is just the kind of hand that gets whacked in multiway when you hit a pair.
Marc, I would bet it out to make the draws pay and to find out if I am up against an A if I am reraised. You have already represented a strong hand. I imagine he showed you a AX unsuited??
Your check raise on the river is an unusual play that very few players would make even though it is often right. Almost no one would bet the turn and then check raise the river.
Hi Mal,
I bet the river, was raised, then I re-raised...
Mason -
Regarding the check-raise on the river after one has bet the turn, can you give an example of an optimal situation for this play? And when is it not correct?
Thank you.
A simple example would be when you have floped a set and you believe that an opponent is calling you down with ace high and an ace hits on the river.
Marc: Like Mal Staples I too would think that the person to your left has Ax..If he had A with K or J he almost assuredly would have raised on the flop. I would have bet as you did..
He had QTo.
Not too sure what he was thinking.
I was going to suggest that he might have Q 10o, because in his opinion he flopped a monster and was slow-playing it [as many people like to do in such situations]. Then they like to bet out when the board "improves". Here he ran into a real hand though.
funny-I made a similar play, when I flopped the straight. I slowplayed with a lot of preflop raisers, hoping someone would make trips on the turn. I got my wish. Only problem was they made 4 of a kind on the river. UGH! I know......But you learn from mistakes.
I think you played the hand fine. Nothing wrong with your re-raise on the river. The only thing I would have done differently would be to bet the flop and be ready to re-raise anyone who gave me action.
Checking the flop (with the intention of check-raising) is not a bad play because there are only a few cards that could hurt your hand if it is checked around. But betting the flop might have gained an extra bet or two or three to anyone drawing and who might have one bet called in the "cheap" rounds.
BTW you mentioned in your previous posts you play at Bay 101. I usually play 6-12 there regularly. I was just wondering if we might have bumped heads.
It's possible... I just started playing 6-12 there the last month or so. I started playing HE about 4-5 months ago: 2-4 and 3-6 at Bay 101 to get my feet wet, and then I moved up to 6-12. The 2-4/3-6 games were just stupid, everyone playing live 4/6 and pots capped 8 ways preflop. Eventually I'd like to play at higher limits, so I figured I needed to get outta those games.
I just play 6-12 now on weekends. Half Japanese-half Caucasian looking guy with glasses, sometimes I play listening to music.
What do you think of the 6-12 games at Bay 101, what about the 15-30 ones?
Marc
I actually like both the 3-6 and 6-12 games at Bay 101. The games are lively enough, even on weekdays, that if you put the time and have a sufficient bankroll, you can make some decent money. There are usually enough bad players in both games to have a good edge, if you play a solid game. The "suck-outs" don't bother me as much as it does some of the other players.
Earlier this year, I played the 15-30, almost daily for about 4-5 mos., before I went broke. It is a huge jump from the 6-12 to the 15-30, both in terms of bankroll and the players you face. The games are much more aggressive and tougher than the lower limits. However, on Fridays and weekends, the games tend to be a lot better. A good rule of thumb is to see how many "must move" games they have going. If there are more than 2, the games are usually very good. If I were going to take a shot, I would choose the weekend. The daily games can sometimes be good, but are usually a grind with too many "regulars." Be warned, the "suck-out" rate in 15-30 can also be very high. Some of the players are no better than the low limit players. So make sure the you have an adequate bankroll, the variance can be high, lest you go broke. Which is what happened to me.
I will try to keep an eye out for you next time I'm there. Good Luck.
Marc, I posted a reply to your A6 and I am posting this with out reading the results.
I am guessing a AK or AJ probably QT or JJ since no reraise on river - with that flop I can't believe he is slow playing 2 pair but you never know for sure.
What ever the guy had he mis played the hand really badly.
On 2nd thought AJ seemes the best possibility.
When you play in this type of lineup do not slow play anything, forget most fancy tricks you may have. Don't bluff. If 5 people can call 2 cold and not bet this flop something is cra