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Very well said and without doubt the very heart of the matter.
Poker in the U.K is beginning to take off at a rapid rate and,as previously mentioned,in hand banter is not allowed.
I think endless streams of verbal would affect the 'new' poker players here,who are already intimidated enough just getting through the front door of a casino.
Phil Hellmuth(probably the American in him)was the most talkative player,in a groundbreaking series of poker screened on television in the U.K,to promote the game.Although his constant banter was neither negative nor derogatory,and made for entertaining television,i can not see how it makes this great poker stalwart a greater player.
I believe it would demand more menace making your reads on others,via a non verbal format.My opinion of Hellmuth was definitely dented or maybe i am just reading the situation incorrectly!
Yeah, the Hellmuth T.V. final match I saw repeated last night in UK, he was pretty much being drawn into the verbal fray by opponents, in which case you have to give a little back just to show them you know that game too and that anyone can do it. Hellmuth didn't need to speak (or casually mention, as he did, his WSOP wins) to rub people up the wrong way.
Still, table-talk of a calculated (though not overtly deceptive) kind can, of course, be key to getting a good read on a player. Last night, one player all in, Hellmuth pondering call, he smiled and said something like: "I'm thinking of calling you with (blah)" and then sat like a lizard looking for a tell. Poker is a game about partial information, so its up to you if you want to trade (honest) information in the hope of getting something helpful back. Lying outright goes against table etiquette because its vulgar, easy and in the long run dumb. It can be bad practise to get too involved in verbals, since if other player is also good at it you end up going on tilt, as was ultimately the case with Hellmuth's talky-talk opponent.
T8s is not a great hand to call in this situation. If the person who raised raises everytime in this situation, it may be alright to defend.
If I had called I would have bet the flop and called, called the turn, and called the river if I didn't know the opponent. However, if I really didn't know the opponent I would not have called preflop.
Derrick
I wouldnt even defend if he raised every time if the hand is going to be heads up. Where is the implied odds and you are out of position....Fold it every time heads up.
12 handed a bit agressive game with a lot of horrible players and a few decent opponents. In average 5 players see the flop
I get dealt 88 UTG and after foldin about 45 hands in a row i decide to simply limp (1st mistake?)
The best player of the table (BPOT) raise in middle position and is immediately reraise by 1 of my buddy (BUD)a decent player who is able to reraise here only with AA KK or QQ normally. A callin station defend his big blind and its up to me... DO i put $20 more in the pot fearin a reraise... Since theres already $100 in the pot, i called.(i would have probably folded without the callin station) as did BPOT
4 handed 120 in the pot.
Flop Q 8 5 rainbow
BB check and i check too BPOT bet BUD raise BB call 10 all-in i just call to not reveal the strenght of my hand yet... (but maybe im against pocket queens..)and Bpot also call.
The turn is a blank
I check BPOT also check BUD bet i raise BPOT fold and Bud called the turn and the river with pocket rockets and ive won a good pot.
My question here is that if i knew BUD had AA KK or QQ, should ive waited for the river to pop him since i know he will always bet the river with any of these 3 hands he can hold in a pot like this... Maybe this way i would have kept BPOT and his 99% sure AQ with us...
Just wondering!!
Keep playin aces!
Charlie
I believe that the play of the hand was incorrect given your assumption that your BUD would ONLY reraise with AA, KK, or QQ. If this is true, you need to fold.
Once you see the flop I would certainly have bet out expecting a raise and planning to reraise. You need to play your sets as fast as possible. Middle set often will get a raise by all of those with top pair. Further, none of the top pairs will fold. You have a money maker here and it needs to have all the action put in possible. This has the added benefit of knocking out people who would pick up draws on the turn. People just love to "take the cheap one off"
Finally, if you play your hands slowly like this, I bet you get beat on the river pretty regularly by runner runner....miracle draws. You do so because you let them draw cheap. Better to win a smaller pot, if you even have to sacrifice that, than to lose a big pot to a miracle draw. Lock the draws out whenever possible.
I was Bud in that hand . If I re-raise BPOT I could have AK , not absolutlly a big pair , especially because both blinds of that are loose. But it's not important . There are my tought when yopu check-raise me . The flop wasn't rainbow , there was 2 diamonds on the flop ( you could check the video of the game ) ;) . That is why I suspect you to don't have a set . And if you have a set , you would have raise QQ , and fold 55 . No chance for a set on the turn , you wouldn't have call 20 for a 1:23 . MAybe 88 . Maybe a tricky play to steal the pot with the 2nd best hand (AQ , KQ , QxJx ) and find yourself with the BB .And very small chances that you were dealt AA . You went for a limp-reraise , but realise that it was more valuable to slowplay because because there was only descent player still in hand (with money) . At this point there was 250 in the pot . I have fallen in love with my aces one more time.
Here is the hand, in the same 5-10 game at the Taj that I just described. I'm on the button with J-10, both diamonds. 5 callers to me, I call, both blinds come, 8 players in, $40 pot. The flop comes J-8-4, one diamond. Everyone checks to late position player who bets, I raise to $10. Everyone folds, he calls. Turn is a brick diamond. He checks, I bet $10 with my top pair, good draw. River misses, he checks, I bet again (mistake?). He calls and shows A-J off to take it down. Did I play this too hard? He never raised during the hand so I didn't put him on a better jack. -Other thoughts: There is MUCH more checkraising in this game then 3-6, and I hardly make this play. I know it is a must if you want to play at this or higher limits, but I have trouble knowing when to pull it off. For example, on one hand I limped in EP with pocket 9's, and it was raised late which i called. 4 players, flop comes low rags. Do I checkraise? Or bet out? What if a high card drops on the turn? Say I am in late position with this hand, Do i raise a bet or wait and see the turn? I frequently raise, only to see a Jack or queen fall and be forced to pay off. Any comments appreciated.
I have a very different outlook on this than the others. First, you SHOULD have raised preflop. You have a hand that plays well against a large number of callers and you have the button. Then I would have raised on the flop, though you might not have needed to raise as the AJ may well have just called. I would have bet the turn because of the diamond. If the diamond had not hit I would take the free card. Finally, I would have checked on the river.
You never know how things would have actually played out. Most likely you would still have lost...nonetheless, I would ALWAYS raise with JTs with many callers and the button.
IowaMatt:
A preflop raise is ok, but I don't believe a raise should be standard operating procedure in the game Jeff describes. People will continue with their hands no matter what in this game. They will pay you off no matter what, and you will need a hand to win.
After being fortunate enough to meet so many of the great posters at this forum, I think it is time to de-lurk and post/comment on some hands.
Friday night, 6-12 Mirage, game is loose passive, with all players being reasonable.
4 limpers, including the button, sb folds, I check in the BB with 35o
Flop comes Q-8-3 rainbow. I check, all players check.
Turn comes 4. I check, all check to button who bets. I call, rest fold.
River comes 4. I check, button bets, I call.
Results to follow.
My 35o takes down the pot. Button gets hot that I would call the turn and river bet with a pair of threes. I laugh to myself.
The other fella should not get mad at the way you played the hand. If you want to play a hand really poorly, even if you win, he should be pleased.
since the flop was checked and you have one pair, you can take a shot and bet the turn. However, your check-call is another alternative, although you lose two bets if beaten.
Just thought I'd share this with everyone since there had been a previous discussion on lying to win a pot. To make a long story short, I was in a hand and the pot was a monster (it had been capped before and after the flop with many callers.) On the river it was heads up with me and this other guy who was first to act. He fired, looked right at me and said "muck it". I had two pair (not top two) and immediately knew he was full of sh*t. I raised, he called, and I showed my two pair. He threw his into the muck. I couldnt help but chuckle as I was stacking my chips and thinking of the discussion that was held here earlier on lying to win a pot. Technically he didnt lie, but it was obvious he was trying to angle shoot to win the pot. I have been around long enough to spot rim shot plays like this and know when someone is full of it. I did laugh though and think of this forum and my fellow 2 + 2 posters. just thought I'd share this with you...--Big Al--
There is a very famous Big Al in poker, but he wouldnt be playing low limit games...so I assume you are not him. If you sign with Big Al, you will get people asking if you are him from time to time.
It is I. I read all the forums and since there had been a previous discussion on lying to win a pot in this section, I decided to post it here.--Big Al--
What percentage chance do you estimate that you
a) may be beaten already and
b) the button has outs to beat you on the river?
Those questions are the key to this play. You are basically shooting in the dark with the check-call approach. Your intuition is good and I agree with it. But it is not foolproof and there is a nearly 100% chance that the button has overcards to your measely pair. If your plan is to have him do the betting for you, you are gonna be sorry when he bets his bigger pair on the end and you pay him off. Give him a chance to fold now. You have a very very vulnerable hand.
IMO, save this approach for time when you are very strong and you suspect your opponent has a good, but worse holding. Then checkraise 'em on the river!
KJS
KJS,
I was going to write a long explanation; however, a response by DS to the 20-40 correct checkraise? should be sufficient.
I would have done as you did. If I know the raising standards of UTG I may have 3 bet pre flop. Not much you can do here.
Derrick
How wrong would it be here to bet the turn and fold to a raise? You have top pair, top kicker and flush draws are down to one card. I'm pretty new to hold 'em and have trouble with coordinated boards.
Just reread Theory of poker on blind structure.
If my understanding is correct, you actually want to tighten up with smaller blinds.
How's the action in this game? I was watching it the other day, waiting for the morning tourney to start. I was tempted to sit, but had to run over the the Luxor for their noon tourney? It's too late now as I'm no longer in LV, but just wondering if I missed anything.
I apologize for the misprint. I thought that the first to act in each round is UTG.
UTG is the player to the left of the BB.
I was at the Taj Mahal in AC this past weekend and had the same hand with the same result happen to me. I don't intend to sound whiny, I am trying to determine if I could have gotten out of this without losing as many chips.
Both times I have pocket aces, and both times the flop comes down X-4-4. I raised before the flop (I think I was in middle position or late position) and both times a player (the same player) bet into me on the flop. There were several paired flops during the session, and sometimes players were throwing out bets representing trips when they didn't have them. What I ended up doing was calling the flop bet, turn bet, and river bet each time. Of course, both times the player had a 4 to beat me.
In retrospect, I think both times I should have raised his flop bet to gain information. If he re-raised, I could have folded right there, or perhaps folded on the turn if he bet into me again. If he called my flop raise and bet into me on the turn, again I could fold with a clear conscience. Is my hindsight 20/20? I know how I handled this was not correct. Some of the players said that they never raise with aces because you can never win with them at that limit. That is a bunch of crap, right? My feeling is that I should be raising with aces most of the time, like 90 percent or more.
You are correct, you should have raised on the flop. If you get reraised, then call and hope to catch your ace on the turn. If you dont and he bets into you again (and you dont think he is a tricky player, which he isnt if he is play 2/4) then fold.
Aces are wonderful but we all remember them more clearly when we lose with them. It happens. We dont like it....but dont be discouraged.
"There were several paired flops during the session, and sometimes players were throwing out bets representing trips when they didn't have them." Raise the flop then. Simple. Get called, bet turn. Get 3 bet, smooth and toss unless the turn is a miracle card. You made a table observation, and did nothing about it.
I disagree with the other responses. This is a perfect time to rope-a-dope, if you think that people are bluffing too much when the board pairs, especially when people don't know when they're not going to be able to push someone off a hand.
1. You're either far ahead or far behind. That means that you don't need to force him off his hand if he's bluffing, as he's bluffing with virtually no outs. Giving cheap cards doesn't hurt you.
2. By being aggressive, you stand to lose the most when behind and gain the least when ahead. If he is indeed bluffing, then you may get him to dump his hand. But, if you are behind, then you are going to lose more by raising.
3. You have position on your opponent. If he decides to give up his bluff, you have the opportunity to bet.
The only thing you gain by raising is information. If he plays back at you, and he's not a maniac or a tricky player, and if you're capable of folding, then you can save 1.5 big bets.
While this does have its merits, I don't like it as much because my opponent has to feel confident that I don't have a four, seeing as how I raised preflop. He also knows that I can't be as confident that he doesn't have a four. It's so easy for him to represent a hand here. At lower limits, I see this a lot; people love to make moves for the pot. They don't realize that with a board like this, they are likely to get called. In other words, this is the sort of flop that LL players get tricky on.
There's also a subtle point that middle pairs are overpairs to this flop. Middle pairs are likely to give you the same kind of action as a four would. You may end up throwing away your aces against a middle pair.
If you were heads-up it's not necessary to raise the flop. You ae either way ahead or way behind so check and call is fine (although when I use this tactic I'll usually raise the river). There is no way I lay down this hand unless I know the player very well. This is a great flop for aces.
Ignore the players who say not to raise with aces. It's called selective memory: they remember every time they lose with a good hand and win with a garbage hand. Last night I had to sit beside a player whining for hours how his good hands never won. This after he turned over AQs (hit an ace on the river), pocket jacks, and what I think was AA within the first hour.
Here is a hand I played meekly on the river. I think I am often not aggressive enough is spots like this.
Game is loose passive
UTG limps in (A very good player who plays very good starting cards. I know him well and he knows me)
I limp in at number 3 with 6,6.
Unfortunately, only the BB stays and we take the flop 3 handed.
Flop comes 6,2,8 rainbow. UTG bets, I call, BB folds. Turn is a 4. UTG bets, I raise and UTG calls.
River is a 5 (leaving a 7 for the straight). UTG checks, I bet, and UTG check-raises.
I think for a moment and the only hand I am afraid of is 7,7 ( or 7,8 suited which is unlikely for him but I guess possible).
His play so far doesn't smell of 7,7 but I just call anyway. He turns over 5,5 for a set on the end and I take it down with 6,6,6.
Seeing the 5,5 suprised me given his play. He might have put me on overcards and a semi-bluff given his play (although he should have reraised the turn).
Given his play, he realistically had 10,10 J,J or Q,Q. since he knows me, I think he would call me down with a reraise if he had any of these hands.
Is a reraise correct here?
here it goes....
Your first problem, is check/calling on the flop...you would have probably driven out all the players if you check/raised...allowing the player not to catch such an easy Straight. Second, your hand becomes very weak when the river comes down. Although your hand is still strong in tight games, with loose players, anyone can hold a 7 for the hell of it.
I believe that calling the check/raise was the correct play, for he could've easily held a 7.
still, you definetly should've driven him out on the flop with your set. If you truly believe that hes a guy that would never hold 7's.....then why was he holding 5's? Doesn't make sense to me....Maybe he was just playing the cards for the hell of it?
A re-raise could easily be troublesome for you, but to play it safe...just call the check/raise.\
Shaftman
I would not reraise the river with 4 to a straight on board. I would be happy that I won.
Derrick
Your play was way too passive early on. You need to raise on the flop. You want to push out the gut shot straight draws as quickly as possible. Also, at lower limits players tend to call too often so you want to give the opportunity to make the mistake of call two bets cold.
Betting the turn is correct.
On the river there is no way you can correctly reraise the check raise. With a one card straight you must play cautiously. I am not even certain I would have bet the river...and I play very aggressively. I guess I would have bet it because it was checked to me. Still a somewhat dangerous move.
All too often I see players trying to wait till the turn to put a raise in . By then all the draws have so many outs that they wont get out. You need to play a set very fast to make it stand up...especially when the board is coordinated at all.
I am glad that your hand stood up.
You need to remember that I knew this player extremely well and could usually put him on his cards.
The way he played there is no way I can logically put him on a seven. The fact that he called my turn raise with 5,5 is a complete suprise. The only thing I can think of is that the thinking went several levels deep and he knew me well enough that I could be semi-bluff raising.
If I can't logically put him on a seven then why isn't the raise correct.
Also, against an unknown or loose player I would not bet the river.
I never really slowplay trips. However, in this situation there were only 3 small bets in the pot. In addition, I cannot put UTG on a draw so I am pretty safe.
This was a very situational play
Assuming that the game was the type where limping UTG with 55 was a positive EV play (doesn't sound like it was given that everyone folded after UTG and you limped), I think that both of you played the hand fine postflop. I don't think you can reraise the river nor can he reraise the turn (although he certainly can call given his perceived 6 outer).
Hi guys,
I still have trouble from time to time with judging the appropriate level of aggressiveness on the river. So I'll post a hand and see what the consensus on the proper river play is ...
The game is very loose and, for the most part, passive. The game is very juicy, in that three of the biggest fish have been running well, and so all three have muliple hundreds of chips sitting in front of them. And I have position on them all ... ;)
PREFLOP
I am in the big blind with AKo. 4 limpers, and then the most aggressive of the big three raises. One cold call, and it's to me. Against a smaller (or tighter) field, I'd normally 3-bet here, but in this instance, I smooth call, and hope for a check-raise in the event of a good flop.
14 small bets in the pot, 7 players.
FLOP: K 7 5 rainbow
Remember what I said about a check-raise? Well, it works beautifully... checked to big fish who bets, one caller, I raise, rest of field drops, leaving only me, fish, and caller.
10 big bets, 3 players
TURN: offsuit Q
I bet, fish calls, muttering "one more," and caller now folds.
Now, the big fish's comment is 85% reliable to mean he is drawing. I would have heard from him with two pair, but he occasionally will wait until the river to raise with anything bigger.
12 big bets, 2 players.
RIVER: T, no flush possible.
Now, it is very likely that my opponent will pay me off with all kind of inferior holdings. However, given his proclivity for raising the river with his bigger hands, and the fact that with the size of the pot, I'll likely be enticed to call any such raise, do I pull the trigger one last time, or do I check and call any bet I get from him??
What do you guys think?
Dave
I would bet and pay off the raise. I think with the size of the pot he will pay you off with a T.
Derrick
Checking the river here is just a bad play. Do you think that your opponent chased you all the way with AJ? That check on the end probably makes him think exactly that and exposes you to a bluff. If you're having a really bad session and he knows it, he might take a shot right here.
You have the best hand here. Bet. It's the only way you'll get paid off. Even if he folds, you WIN. Betcha the fish has AQ, that's the only reason he calls the turn. He's drawing to 2 outs and got hooked when he spiked the Q.
If he does have AJ (highly unlikely), naturally he will raise with the nuts on the river and you have a decision. Then you can smile even bigger knowing that he will play a draw with only 4 outs. Then wait him out, it's only a matter of times. Sometimes it might take 4..6..8 hours but he'll leave broke. Bank on it.
You have only top pair. He can have now, QT, KT or slow play KQ.
When 2-3 limpers are in, and then it's raised when it comes to you in middle/late position. What do you do with medium pocket pair like 88-TT (game is generally loose/passive)?
Thanks.
I often call here hoping that I hit my set, or that I have an overpair to the board. This may be a leak in my game though.
Derrick
I dump here every time.
To be honest, I am not sure what is proper. Could be a leak in my game.
I will usually call in a loose passive game. with several limpers, plus one raiser, none of the limpers are likely to fold, and at least one if not both of the blinds may call as well. you are likely getting enough odds to call just on set value alone, especially considering the loose action after the flop in a raised pot. I might sometimes reraise with the tens, but in this situation I will virtually never fold the nines or eights, but will dump virtually every time if I don't hit a set. This is all assuming an average of five or six players, with only two or three, I would often fold the nines or eights, but reraise the tens.
I think consistently folding here in a loose game is more likely to be a leak than consistently calling.
Dave in Cali
With 7.5 to 1 odds of hitting a set, this is a tough call to make. A factor might be how am I doing in this session? If I'm losing, no way. If I'm winning, I probably reraise with the pair. Who knows:
1) He might just call the 3 bet and check to you on the flop. Whether you bet or take the free card of course depends on what hits.
2) If he 4 bets, then I'm a big dog and can get away on the flop easy if I'm not helped.
3) If everyone calls and you hit, you just made a big pot for yourself with a gutsy (correct? very debatable) play. The last time I looked, the objective of this game was to maximize potential wins and minimize losses. This play definitely maxes the win.
Also, be aware of what your competitors are cold calling raises with. 2 faces? Ace something? Suited connectors (bad players... BAD!!!). If you get a good read, you might be able to get a good flop just on that skill.
As you've probably guessed, I'm partial to a little bit of aggressive play. I think it's a much better play to put in another small bet than to have to check-call all the way and be a loser of 2-3 big bets. In low limit, trust me, you'll get a lot of information if you pull the trigger for a 3 bet. Most players with a big wired pair will glare at you, wrinkle their faces, and reraise. You can almost hear them say, "what are you doing... I got AA!!!! Well I'll show him." Try it, you might like the results :)
Fairly tight/ passive 3/6 game (10-handed).
I'm in the cut-off with AdQc. UTG limps, folded to me, I raise, both blinds call.
Flop: 4 7 Q all hearts.
Checked to me, I bet, only small blind calls.
Turn: Kd
Sb bets into me. SB is a decent player. I dont know much about him.
What do you do?
Regards, ME
Easy dump.
The SB is betting into the preflop raiser who has the initiative. Very unlikely he is trying to bluff. You do not even have top pair with a very dangerous board.
I am guessing he is not on the flush - which I think he might checkraise given your initiative last two rounds. His bet says he doesn't want you to get a free card and beat his set or KK.
Since you don't know him it is difficult to pin him. Doesn't matter - you have to be a big dog at this point.
The pot is so small. There is no way he bets into you with less than a pair of kings. Why bother?
sam
Fold!!!
No draw and an overcard... you're looking up a real steep hill with no rope. Fold and give the small pot. Betcha the SB has K of hearts and figures it's good.
I have AQo in EP. Folded to me, I raise, all fold to SB who calls, BB folds.
Flop: K Q 4
He bets, I raise, he calls.
Turn is a blank. He checks, I check.
River is a blank, he bets, I call.
Comments? Thanks
I would have played it identically. The only possible difference is that I might not raise AQo in EP in low limit.
Your probably beat on the river but I think you need to call him down unless you know him really well and he wouldn't bet unless he had a K. Amazing in LL how often you will turn over the best hand here (certainly enough times to justify calling).
I like the play... it is hard to let go of your hand heads up, and you got a free card by the raise. You may very well be behind, but I would be happy to get there for 3 BB.
Derrick
I would have tossed a bet in on the turn. The way I see it, if you check the turn (and show weakness), he will bet the river and you will have to call him, so you lose an additional 1 BB. Why not throw that 1 BB in on the turn yourself. You give him a chance to fold. If he calls you or raises, you can fold. If he bets the river you can fold. No matter how you play it you lose 1 additional BB when you lose, but you have more ways to win if you bet yourself on the turn.
Just my opinion.
sam
nt
Ditto here.
Your raise on the flop tells him his K is no good. To not bet the turn here is criminal and exposes you to a bluff on the end that you'll have to call anyway.
On the river you have two choices since you have position:
1) Show your hand down 2) Bet again for value if you think there is a reasonable chance he will fold. It's hard to call with K-something when you've bet 3 times unless the guy is a total calling station. If so, then all this is academic because he'll make you show.
I am playing devil's advocate here. What if you are check raised on the turn? Do you let go of your hand and not get to a show down?
Derrick
Yes, because against most sane players, the check-raise means two pair or better because they'd be afraid of AK, so you would fold instead of drawing to at most five outs and posibly no outs to a set.
Peace
Goodie
I would drop my hand in a second to a check-raise on the turn. At low limits I very much doubt you'll be faced with a bluff-check-raise on the turn. You can fold with a clear conscience. I would also fold to a bet on the river (as long as I did bet the turn).
Your hand may or may not be well played. You need to explain your reason for raising on the flop. For instance, against a player who will usually check the king, but bet a lessor hand such as a draw your play might be fine. But it could be better (against this player) if you just call the flop and perhaps raise the turn after the blank hits.
Against someone who likes to lead with the king, a fold might have been better. This is what you need to be thinking about and these are the events that should be impacting how you play the hand.
Thanks for all the responses
The SB was IMO a player who usually bet out if he hit something. But in this case he could be betting a king, but he also could be betting a queen. I was just not sure. So it seemed to me if I raised that I would have a very good chance to buy a free card, even if he got the king. If he had a very good king (like AK) he would probably just call my raise on the flop, and try to check-raise me on the turn, so I would still get a free card. When I showed weakness on the turn, I thought I might could induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a better queen), so I still would get the bet if he had a worse hand.
"I thought I might could induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a better queen), so I still would get the bet if he had a worse hand"
That must be " I thought I might induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a WORSE queen), ......"
Ad Kc, early position.
UTG raises, I make it 3, MP cold calls, LP cold calls, (blinds fold), UTG caps, I call, MP calls, LP calls.
Flop: Th 7d Jc
UTG bets, I raise, MP cold calls, LP re-raises, UTG calls, I call, MP calls.
Turn: Th 7d Jc 4h
UTG bets, I call, MP calls, LP raises, UTG calls, I call, MP calls.
River: Th 7d Jc 4h 6s
UTG checks, I check, MP checks, LP bets, UTG calls, I fold, MP folds.
LP showed a set of tens. UTG showed pocket kings.
Questions:
1) Was I correct to stay in the whole way with my gutshot?
2) Would calling on the flop have been better than raising?
(Do everything I can to win the huge pot, or keep people around when I'm drawing so I can get paid off if I hit).
sam
I'm sorry to say that you overplayed your hand. The three bet before the flop was okay, but when two players call three cold and the original raiser caps it. You have to hit an Ace or a King to have any shot at this pot. On the flop, once utg bets you can call one bet with your gutshot and two overcards because of the pot odds. Raising on the flop serves no purpose because the two people behind you are likely to have a real hand plus the fact that utg might re-raise. If you had not raised, the set of 10's may have raised and KK may have re-raised, therefore you muck. Otherwise muck on the turn.
Peace
Goodie
AK is a very slight favorite to the typical range of utg raising hands only if you stay for all 5 cards, so I don't like the preflop 3-bet. You can afford to let players in. 3-betting also lets him get away from his hand if you hit and lets him bet any real hand he's got with impunity but ties you on. 3-betting with AK is good to either knock out or punish limpers.
When they say to do what you can to win a big pot, they mean everything that's reasonable. Launching a raising war with the obviously worst hand doesn't work. Your flop raise didn't make sense. If he's got a big overpair or a set, he'll 3-bet you. If he's got an underpair, it's probably one that gives him a gutshot and he'll call you with a draw until the river and call you down on the river just in case. The only hand you can beat is AQ or a pure bluff, neither of which are likely. You've also got a downstream cold caller of 3, which usually meants TT-QQ or AK, which puts you in a very bad spot with this flop. If I could read my downstream opponent for a medium pair or better I'd fold to one bet on the flop. Otherwise it's a crying call.
On the turn, with a downstream opponent representing a set/overpair and the probable overpair betting into you, you are certainly looking at 2 bets and possibly 3 or 4, and should consider that some of your (few) outs will sometimes be dead. I'd fold.
The call on the river was right, but any profit you could have made here was lost on the earlier streets.
I probably would have raised on the flop as you did, when it came back capped I probably would have folded. I would have considered my overcards to be unreliable outs at this point.
Derrick
What is the purpose of this raise given the pre-flop action?
If someone with T's can cap it preflop, you can not be sure that your hand won't be good if an overcard hits. You want to maximize your chances of winning this pot because it is now very large. If you can raise and drive out the opponents behind you even though you are behind on the flop, this is the correct play IMO. That is why I would raise the flop.
Derrick
I agree now that I should not have raised, but when it came back to me at 3 bets (not capped), I have a clear call just to draw for a lady. I'll agree my overcards are no good, but the pot is offering huge odds to take another card on my (nut) gutshot.
I misread your post... sorry. I would be wary to raise against a cap preflop, but in this case it isn't a bad decision. Your preflop capper has more liberal standards then most. I think a raise here was poor only because no one left the pot. If you knew the 2 people behind you were likely to call a raise then it is a poor raise. Otherwise, it is not.
When you only have to call one more bet on the flop you can take one off. Now there is almost 15BB in the pot. On the turn you run into the pot is too large to give up syndrome. Is it correct? I would doubt your overcards are good? I guess you are on a 4 outer Q draw. You are bet into by UTG and have a loose raiser behind you. You are looking at ~16:1 or ~20:2 or ~24:3.. You are getting 46:4. This is a tough decision IMO. You made the wrong one, but if I Q had come you would be a genius.
I don't think you played it wrong on any street now that I have read the post properly.
Derrick
When would it be appropriate to consider the extra bets I may pick up on the river if I hit?
You could (and should) consider your implied odds on the turn here. You may have to call 3 bets to win 27 (24:1), but actually you could say you will have to call 3 bets to win 29. This is betting that UTG will bet into you on the river if you hit, and the loose raiser will fold for 2 bets. since the pot is so big, you could assume the loose raiser will call...
If you miss you won't pay anymore bets on the river, so you don't have to add to the 3 bets you would pay on the river.
Therefore, you would have to call 3 bets to win 31 (Almost 10:1) on a gutshot that you may have to call 3 bets for...
If you think someone may be there with the same hand as you (you both have AK), then you implied odds are chopped in half.
Derrick
First of all, how was the pre-flop capper more liberal than most? How do you play KK pre-flop? Secondly, I still don't understand the raise on the flop. There is no way that with the pot being capped and three other players that he has the best hand. Also, he is very unlikely to get a free card even if there was no-one behind you. But in this case, there was. Utg will most likely re-raise with what is obviously an overpair and bet the turn. There is no purpose to the raise except to cost him more money.
However, I was mistaken about the odds. If utg bet the flop, he called, LP raised and utg re-raised he is still correct in calling two bets with his gutshot given the odds. Then on the turn, he should decide what to do given his read of whether or not the LP will raise again. If he thinks he will, fold, if he thinks he won't, he is once again getting odds to call one bet.
But, the way he played it, it was very likely that the LP was going to raise the turn given his three bet on the flop so he would have been better off folding to one bet on the turn because he is not getting odds to call two bets.
Anyways, that's way I see it.
Peace
Goodie
First of all, how was the pre-flop capper more liberal than most?
Sorry I thought the T's capped preflop... Man I have butchered this post. I would cap every time with K's... but...
There is no way that with the pot being capped and three other players that he has the best hand...
You don't have to have the best hand here to raise on the flop. what you want to do is narrow the field, so you have the best chance of winning. For instance you want other A's and K's to fold. Therefore, if you hit your overcards they may be good. IMO
Derrick
1. post flop raise huge mistake. with the sb betting out, you had to know you were behind. he probably had a high pair (i wouldn't have guessed 10s). since you were on a draw, you want to get in as cheaply as possible and let as many players in-a raise is doubly wrong here.
2. why did you call the river. did you really think that everyone was on a pure bluff - you didn't even have a pair.
unfortunately, we've all played hands like this. as long as you only do this once in a blue moon, its ok. just don't make a habit of it.
good luck
tootight
nt
I suspected a set on the flop when LP raised, and I knew it was a set on the turn.
AKo is a hard hand for a lot of people to get away from, and a lot of people overplay it. The only way that you are not beaten is if a Queen comes on the turn or river (without the other card pairing the board!). Four people put in a lot of money, I would guess that cuts down on the number of available queens further reducing your odds.
An A or a K only gets you in more trouble.
Finally, this is a scenario I love to be in - flop a set and get chased by a lot of people all of the way to the river. I've made a lot of money on these plays and in low limit - I don't even have to disguise it. Throw money in with both hands - they will come.
Just got back from my second annual (so far) trip to Las Vegas. There were three hands that I hope to get some feedback on.
$4-$8 at the Horseshoe: I was in the cut-off w/ KK. Everyone folds to a very loose player in the 8 seat (I'm in the two seat). I'm getting nervous that my KKs arent going to get paid off when he calls. 9, 10, and 1 all fold. I raise. The button re-raises. 8 seat calls. I reraise. The button calls. 8 seat calls.
[I hadn't spent a lot of time playing w/ the button, but he was your classic "rock" type player. In his 70s, unimaginitive, seemed to be playing relatively few hands. I actually thought about folding my kings, but changed my mind and raised instead. An alarm went off when he just called, but as you'll see, I didn't heed it. He had reraised and played very aggressively preflop earlier w/ KQs. Was that "advertising?"]
The flop comes AKx rainbow. Inexplicably the 8 seat bets. I raise. The button reraises. 8 seat calls. I make it four. The button calls, as does 8 seat.
[Here, I tried to tell myself "maybe he's only got AK or A-face. I was hoping he'd cap it so I could fold w/ a clear conscious, but my brother tells me that it would have been a mistake to fold here even if he showed me his pocket aces. The pot was pretty big.]
The turn and river rag off, 8 seat and I go into check-call mode. The button had pocket aces and takes it down.
$3-$6 at the Mirage: Let me just say that I HATE the $3-$6 game at the Mirage and will never play there again. It is too tight and by far a tougher game than the $4-$8 at the 'Shoe or the Bellagio. There were two assholes at the table being aggressive and unpleasant. One guy kept talking about how he was in Griffin's black book, and how easy counting down a 6 deck shoe was, etc. He bet on the come and showed it off w/ a snide comment when everyone folded. The other guy was a sports bettor who was equally obnoxious and braggadocious. Both seemed to be solid players, but I let my ego get in the way. The "card-counter" was being particularly "dramatic" in his table-talk and demenor, and I guess I let that lull me into thinking he was just a bully and wannabe. Both were talking loudly to each other, slowing down the game and appearing not to be paying attention.
The game was fairly tight and short handed (6 to 7 players. I think it was six handed for both of these hands).
I had 77 UTG and raised. Normally I would call w/ this hand in this spot in a loose-passive game or fold in a tougher game. Everyone folded to the button (the sports bettor) who reraised. The flop came ATx. I don't remember the suits. I bet out. The button asked the dealer "is that the original raiser?" For some reason I took this as license to keep playing fast, hoping he would put me on an ace, since I was early and playing tight. He called. The turn paired Tens. I bet, he called. The river was insignificant; I bet, he called. He had pocket queens and took it down. At the time, I though, "What was he doing calling me down against that board?" But, what was I doing betting...
The last hand was against the card counter. I made a loose (possible tilt-induced) call w/ Qd7d on the button w/ four callers. The card counter was in the big blind and raised. Everyone called.
The flop came Jack high w/ two diamonds. The big blind bet, we got at least one caller (I don't remember the exact number as I don't have my notes infront of me) so I raised for the free card. He reraised. Everyone who was still in folded to me. I called. The turn was an Ace. He bet, I called. The river was a Queen. He bet. Because he was so aggressive on the flop I put him on a Jack, or his putting me on diamonds and trying to screw up my free card. I called, hoping my queen would be good. He had flopped a set of Jacks. Was my play terrible here? I guess I wouldn't be writing this if a diamond had come on the river.
Advice and comments most welcome.
In the first hand you should sit up and take notice when a rock 3 bets you. 4 betting pre-flop was a mistake. When I flop a K I'm committed and will see those aces. However, unlike your brother , if he shows me the aces early I'll fold.
In the second hand it seems like you let your emotions get the better of you. I also had bad experiences playing at the Mirage on my last trip. The good news is you're in Vegas and there's another game just down the street. Learn from your mistake and next time pick up your chips.
Hand 3 there's not much to say. Your call pre-flop was weak but then you were committed. The ace on the turn should have been able to save you a bet on the river as the only hand you can beat is K-J.
Hand #1 - in low limit games, it's often the best hand wins and 77 is not very good hand to raise UTG. Especially when you are 3-bet preflop, you almost have to be in check-fold situation unless you hit the flop.
Hand #2 - if he's the kind of player would 3 bet the flop, it's better to just call with your flush draw. If it's 4 bets to cap, then you should've just capped it for 1 more bet.
Hand 1- The opponent in question would have to be
a complete rock for me to fold KK. Then, a
set of kings is even harder to lay down.
My concern is you had the correct initial
read, but let yourself get trapped by a hope.
Hand 2- When 3 bet with a small pair, you have to
hope for a small flop or a 7. With two
overcards on the flop to your pair, the odds are very big you are beat. Fold on the flop.
Hand 3- You simply played a bad hand here and got
punished. When you were 3 bet on the flop,
the flush was your only out.
All three of these hands indicate I think some
"tilt" in your game. Hand 1 was just a bad break,
but the other two hands are fundamental leaks that
you need to learn from.
Thanx for the interesting hands Jeff. Don't let those guyz put you off your game. Remember too, there are lots of other tables at the Mirage. With jerks like that, I usually ask for a table change right off the bat. To play your best game, you must be at a table where you are comfortable and can monitor your own play. Leave jerks like that for the day care center.
Hand #1: Confucius say beware of tight old men with cobwebs on chips. If he plays, he's playing with KK, AK, or AA only. Tough to fold set of K though, I couldn't do it. Bad luck.
Hand #2: Think your raise with 77 UTG was a "Take that" directed at your buddies. Were you on tilt? It's OK, I've done that too. Not necessarily a bad play, maybe could have saved a bet on the end by checking the river. In that situation, I probably bet the flop and the turn. He's thinking the only hand that beats me is an Ace and I'm gonna make him show me a better hand.
Hand #3: This is a tough one. I definitely think your button call with Q7 was marginal at best. I don't think you had good enough odds preflop to merit a call. Your buddy's raise in the BB is more puzzling to me. JJ does not play well against 4 other opponents. He really needs that hand heads-up or with lots more people. On the flop, he probably pauses and says "Thank Youuuu Dealer" internally. His reraise on a dangerous flop tells me set of something. Bad luck not catching your flush, but give him some credit. He read your play correctly and stopped you cold. I would have mucked my hand without a call on river, knew that the Q was no good. Those are the hands that make Hold Em absolutely maddening but thankfully at 3-6, the tuition is cheap. Just learn from the experience, and move on. Who knows what happens tomorrow?
All you can do is give yourself the best chances to win. Sometimes they work out, other times not. Take care and good fortune go with you.
I'm dealt AsKs at a full online $5-10 table. Sane, but aggressive player raises in cut-off after one limper. Button drops and SB re-raise. I have no read on SB. Fold, call or cap?
Flop: J-x-x, two clubs, one spade. I have runner-runner flush and straight draws and two overcards. However, the only hands SB could have that I have a good situation against are QQ and possibly AK without clubs and AQs, no clubs. SB bets out, fold, call or raise? Raise is obviously out of the question. I called, I think it was a bad one, despite 6 big bets in the pot pre-flop.
I folded to a third, low club on the turn, and SB won it with jacks full against 8c6c on the early limper.
The reason I found this hand interesting is how I can defend cold-calling two pre-flop if I need a four-flush or a pair to continue playing, and even then lose some (to AA, KK or simply by not hitting the flush).
lars
Preflop, it would be insane to fold ace-king suited in the big blind for any number of bets. I would call and not cap. I am assuming that the limper called two more bets which is probably a bad play since he did not have enough hand to raise initially. I will also assume that the cutoff called. At this point, there should be $60 in the pot and four players.
When bet into for $5 once the flop comes, you are getting 13-to-1 pot odds. Your two big overcards as well as your backdoor possibilities make calling correct. Your fold on the turn is right.
You played fine.
i read like crazy on here (and generally agree) that you always have to show a hand and can't ever bluff a pot and can't get people to fold those lucky rags, etc. well, for the most part that is true. in a 2-4 game at the bicycle i had AKs and raised preflop, got reraised, and just called. flop comes AQ2 rainbow. i bet the whole way, and a J on the river pairs the reraiser's J2 offsuit!!! how do you call with J2 after that flop?!!?? well, that's one example of the truth of that statement. but i had been sitting in a 1-2 game before that (i only had like 40 bucks with me). at this table, i was buying pots like mad. people were folding to my check-raise bluffs. it was mad!! i felt like a bully in the sandbox! the problem was that that table broke up and there were no more 1-2 tables open!! did i drive players out? and the same thing happened at the 2-4 table when i moved there. it was the only table. was i being to aggressive in these games? extracting every last bet too much? i tried to keep it as friendly as possible.
you stand little chance of this stealing phenomenon continuing to last very long at low limit. you can steal pots against tight players, especially if they are way too conservative when the pot is shorthanded. but in a loose full ring game, you won't steal many, if any, pots. get over this. check-raise bluffing in low limit poker is basically paying two bets to lose instead of folding and losing no bets. when you do happen to be against tight players, go ahead and steal some pots, but expecting this to continue is foolish and will cost you.
A more productive strategy would be getting used to being reraised by J2o, and then losing to two pair on the river....
being friendly in the way that you bet is fairly irrelevant when playing against totally oblivious opponents, keeping the game itself pleasant is more important....
Dave in Cali
In low-limits it's not unusual(as you have mentioned)to constantly run into hands like J2o and lose to 2-pair. And the hand you spoke of here you weren't even bluffing! I would smile at this situation because you know where the $ is going to end up.
Then you mentioned in the other game when you were "bluffing like mad" and they were dropping like flies. I wouldn't flex your muscles and give yourself so much credit as it might have been just a tougher tighter game and those players were folding based on their holdings and lack of pot odds. I've played in some 2-4 and 3-6 games that were tougher and tighter than 20-40 and 30-60 games in the same cardroom. There are some mighty fine low limit players that play low limits due to bankroll requirements or can't handle the swings or the added pressure that the high limits bring.
As a rule in low limit (and also in medium limits) a pure bluff is almost never profitable in the long run. There are times when a pure bluff can be profitable and that has to do with how well you know your opponents. As they say in HEPFAP leave your self outs with semi-bluffing. In the game like you mentioned where players fold too often you should semi-bluff more often. Beware of pure bluffing because it could wind up being your downfall and your credibility will be affected greatly.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
I like this post. You should rarely bluff, especially pure bluffs where you have no outs, in low limit games. Against weak-tight players, there are some situations where pure bluffs can be very profitable, but these situations are rare. Semi-bluffing will still be more profitable against these players though, you should generally have outs when you bluff with more cards to come in low limit games. Excessive pure bluffs will cost you, and cost you a lot if you keep it up in low limit poker. The situation frodo described is incredibly rare, and if he or anyone else decides this is a good strategy for use in everyday low limit play, they will be hitting the ATM often during their poker carreer.
Dave in Cali
Ability to bluff depends on the tightness/aggressiveness of the game and also on your own table image.
I've been in low limit games loaded with calling stations where you couldn't get away with anything. You had to show down a winner at the end. For the most part, I believe that will remain fundamentally true.
I do believe that it's possible to bluff in a loose passive game under the correct conditions. These conditions at minimum:
1) You better be winning substantially
2) You better have showed down lots of good winning hands recently
3) You better have a shorthanded pot (3 or less)
4) You better be against the right people in the pot who are capable of possibly folding a better hand to your bluff/semi-bluff.
For example, a favorite of mine would be a medium wired pair under the gun (8s through 10s) for a raise. If the flop misses but puts an A or K out there, I will bet and probably bet the turn as well shorthanded. Just be careful because this play can cost you money if the tight old man (TOM) is in the game and will faithfully call you and make you show him a hand. If you flop a set, you've got a deceptive hand. You can also flop the overpair when rags come and bet confidently that your opponents have paint.
Each game has a different texture, find out what it is as soon as possible and assess whether bluffs will be profitable.
3-6 Hold'em in albuquerque, NM: I'm in the BB with Q5o, 2 middle position players limp to the button. He picks up his chips and looks like he's going to raise, then as he moves his hand forward I swear I see his hand shake, but he just calls. I figure he has a big pair (probably AA). The flop comes Q53 rainbow. I consider check raising but decide to go ahead and bet because I think the big pair may raise, then I can reraise. My bet causes the limpers to drop and sure enough the button raises, I reraise, button caps..(?) As I called the cap I must admit that I feared he had QQ...Until Qc fell on the turn. I bet, he raises, I reraise, he calls all-in. River is a blank, and he turns over Q3o!!!??!!! Now I realize that I was WAY off in assessing his hand and I'm not sure why he even called in the first place but it's hands like this that make all of those 7-2 suck outs worth while...
10-handed 3/6 game.
All fold to me in cut-off. I hold KJo. I raise, button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds. I call. I've now been playing with SB for an hour or so, and he hasnt been involved in many pots, and the ones he was in, he played fine. I havent seen him make tricky moves.
Flop: 5 J 7 rainbow.
He bets out, I raise, he calls.
Turn: T
He checks, I bet, he calls.
River: A
He bets out, I fold. I folded because he seemed to me a decent player, who would only 3-bet PF if he had a good hand. In this case I strongly put him on AK or AQ. If he had KQ he would win also. I could not figure a hand that i have beat.
Comments?
Regards, ME
Your fold is probably correct. However, a good player will realize that an ace at the river is a great scare card and creates a good bluffing situation especially if he was on a busted draw. Preflop, his reraise out of the small blind does not denote a premium hand necessarily since he is reacting to your late position open-raise which could be a steal. In other words, a good player will three bet here with any medium pocket pair or any two big cards. I would probably call at the river just to make sure I was not getting robbed.
I completely agree with Jim. Like he said you might have been beat but for one more bb I would call just to make sure. AK and AQ are possible, but why would he call the turn? If he did, I would consider him a poor player in relationship to the size of the pot. Drawing to an inside straight, w/two over cards is a mistake. If you were in fact beat, I think the only hand this player could have had was KQ. TL
I am in a loose passive 3-6-12 game (12 on the river). I am in middle position and pick up QhTh. There is no raise preflop and 8 callers including myself. (8 SB)
Flop is 7h-4s-2h: SB bets out, call, call, raise, fold, fold, I reraise, button caps. SB folds... everyone else calls. (21 more SB for a total of 29 SB). The reason I raise here is because I want my overcards to be good if they come, it didn't really work as I had planned though.
Turn is 7h-4s-2h-8h: BB bets, fold, raise, I call, button calls, BB calls.
River is 7h-4s-2h-8h-6d: BB checks, early position bets 12, I call, button calls, BB folds...
Please comment on my play.
Derrick
Well, It's pretty weak, but I was guilty of almost the exact same situation a while back. I got J-c Q-c, it's been long enough that I don't recall position, but the flop had two clubs and two to a straight. It was $6-$12 and a very passive game. I called a couple of $6 bets and got heads up with a total calling station. The turn was checked, the river was a third club and also made the straight possible. I checked, he bet, I called. He turned over the straight. Looking back on that hand as I often do, I really played it like a pussy. I regret not putting in a check raise after he bet into me on the river, but it was my first venture into a cardroom and I guess I was looking for the monster under the bed. Live and learn. Next time I'll invest some chips into that kind of situation, and if I run into a bigger flush, oh well. I surely wouldn't get into a raising war if he comes back over the top of me, but I really feel that I missed out on some extra money. I think you're in the lead the majority of the time here, so if you lose a few to the bigger flush, you'll still come out on the plus side in the end. I'm guessing that you're opponent had a straight as well?
I don't think this is the same situation. First I hit on the turn... I think this is where I made my mistake. I should have 3 bet... There could have been a dry A or K out there against me. There could have been a set or 2 pair.
You were heads up I had 4 way action at the river. It is a little harder to play a Q high flush hard against 3 other opponents.
I don't think a raise on the river is correct because I don't want to pay off a $12 reraise.
Just My Opinions.
Derrick
I think you played the hand fine. When it's bet and raised to you on the turn when the third heart comes, you have to be worried about a higher flush given the action on the flop. I would have played the hand the same way as you. I'm assuming you won the pot?
Peace
Goodie
I think the flop raise is questionable. I understand your reasoning. However, it sounds like there is only one player left to act before the SB - so how many are you really going to knock out? 1 or 2. You are also subject to a reraise. What are your chances for a free card?
Rest of the play seems fine. I might fold the raise on the turn depending on the player. However, in most LL you need to at least call it down.
Never played this structure before. Turn raise certainly seems viable. For half the cost of the river bet you should know where you are at.
What are your chances for a free card?
I think if the button had folded I would have been in a great position to get a free card. However, he capped it.
Derrick
I like the way you played this hand. I fully approve of your flop reraise having a flush draw plus two overcards which do not complement the board. You have 15 outs with two cards to come making you a mathematical favorite to make a flush or top pair by the river and you will be going to the river with this hand in almost all cases. Your reasoning was excellent.
However, when the turn gets bet and raised to you then you showed prudent judgement in just calling and not reraising. Your flush is no where near the nuts. However, in these little games guys show up with all kinds of stuff so you must stay. The bettor might have a pair or a straight and the raiser could have a lower flush than you or not even have a flush at all. In this situation all you can do is call and hope your hand holds up.
There was nothing weak about your play at any time.
The problem is that you can have no confidence that any of your outs are good.
What percent (cumulative) of the time do you think your outs will be good? I would guess less than a third, given the play so far. You have approx. 1/2 chance of hitting an out. making you an approximate 6/1 dog.
Are you getting 6/1 on your raise (not even recognizing the possibility of a reraise)?
I like playing this hand as cheaply as possible
On the flop, I think your flush outs will be good the majority of the time. At this point there is no reason to assume they wouldn't be. In low limit games, guys call flop bets with any piece of the board like bottom pairs, middle pairs, gutshots, and other horrid stuff. A guy will raise on top pair, good kicker and you have outs to beat this hand. While your overcard outs may not be good all the time, there will be a certain percentage of the time when if you make top pair on the turn or river it will hold up as the best hand. Furthermore, reraising has other advantages. It may get you a free card later. It may drive someone else out who would have hung around to beat you.
I agree that there are some situations where you might consider dumping a baby flush-draw on the flop if it is bet and raised to you with other callers but I think this comes more into play in middle limit games than in low limit games. Furthermore, a queen-high flush draw is a little more than a baby flush-draw but admittedly not much more. Having the nut flush-draw or even a king-high flush draw is vastly superior.
I have been thinking a lot about this thread and I must admit that it gets more confusing the more I think about it. If I take the logical conclusion of my own agrument one should not only not raise on the flop but they should fold. If you take the logical extent of your argument you should most likely bet aggressively if you hit. At this point, I don't like either option.
I think a lot of it comes down to how you rate the field you are against. In no foldem (at Canterbury) I certainly raise. At PP where I normally play the game is a lot better than people give it credit for. There are fish but you can also run into a lot of decent LL players.
I have been trying to boil down these kinds of situations to thier mathematical roots; place percentages on player's possible hands, odds on future cards hitting, odds how they will play when certain cards hit, and how I will react. I use a binomial model but the decision trees get huge very quickly.
I just ordered Hold'em's Odd(s) by Michael Petriv. Hope it helps.
This game sure is complicated.
Early player had JXh. I showed next and took down the pot. I suspect the button had a set though.
Derrick
If I don't hit the flush here, I'm gone from this hand on the turn. Whether I play 3-6 or 6-12 my reasoning will stay the same--I feel like I'm ahead, I'm raising. If he comes back over the top, I might fold if I get a good enough read. Poker is a game of subtle questions and shouted answers. I don't hear anybody yelling in your description. I'm not ctiricizing your play, I just think you stand to win many more times than you'll lose here. Would I have the balls to put up another twelve bucks? I didn't last time. Talk is cheap, that's why I love this forum.
I understand why you would call when you got the flush. But I do not understand why you would raise before your hand was made and then call all the way down. Now, I have been killed (more than once in a single session) with K high Flush to A high Flush. And, when I have had A high Flush in those same low limit sessions, I have been killed with boats. But, if I am raising at my draw, I am surely going to raise once I hit. With 2 of 13 flush cards in your hand and three on the board and only two possibilities greater than you, it seems unlikely that anyone else is suited higher.
...But I do not understand why you would raise before your hand was made and then call all the way down.
I raised on the come on the flop. IMO I had any T or Q or any flush card to come... 14 outs... > 50% on the flop of completing. I 3 bet on the flop to help ensure my overcards were good. If I 3 bet AQ should drop etc. When I get raised again on the flop I was pretty sure the button had a set... however, I didn't know this when I originally 3 bet. I do think I made a mistake by not 3 betting the turn as well even though I could very well be drawing dead... I was pretty sure the button had a set, so he had 10 outs against my hand, and there could very well have been the dry A and/or K out there which had 7 outs against me. This is where I think I made a mistake.
...two possibilities greater than you, it seems unlikely that anyone else is suited higher.
There are many more then 2 possible flush hands better then mine... AKs, AJs, A9s... KJs, K9s... There are many possibilities here, and that is why I got scared.
If I had 3 bet the turn, I would have known where I was though, and I would have been pretty sure I was ahead. I could have been beaten by KXs, but that is about it. Obviously, the AXs would hit me back on the turn.
Thanks for your post.
Derrick
It seems like you write this post like you think you played it like a little girl, then vigorously defend any post that questions your play. Which is it? I think you played it like a complete girl(read:pussy) on the river, most other posters take your side. Do you think you played it right? I guess that's a rhetorical question, but why name the post like you're unhappy with how you played it if you really feel that your play was completely justified? How many times do you really think you're going to be shown a higher flush? I think you lost out on another bet.
I don't think my call preflop was bad, the table was passive, and there were lots of callers.
I don't think I played the flop badly 3 betting a flush draw and overcards I think is the right thing to do.
The turn is where I question myself. Whether I did it wrong or not I'm not sure... I guess that is why I asked. BUT, I still think I should have 3 bet the turn. I have a good (not great) hand, and if I am ahead there are lots of ways for me to lose. I guess at the time I just felt like I may not be ahead.
In my replies I am not necessarily defending myself, but I am pointing out things that I think should be considered. For instance in the above... I don't have the 3rd nut flush I have a flush... If I had a K high flush I am pretty sure I would have 3 bet it... at least I hope I would have 3 bet it...
IMO, I think I did play weakly on 4th street, but I don't think I should have popped it on the river. It would have been a different situation had I 3 bet the turn though...
Derrick
nt
This was very agressive play with this hand. With these cards I'm looking for a Straight Flush, a nut straight, Queens full, if I hit a flush like you did, I call all the way and pray that there is no higher flush out there. I'm happy if I win and I don't care how much. I'll take it as a gift from the table. It would be different if you flop the flush, but you didn't. But then again, I'm probably wrong.
Tough call Derrick, but a GREAT thread question! Not knowing the players, just that its a loose/passive game, I might have raised the raiser on the turn. If he re-raises, then I'd call his $12 dollar bet on the river. If he'd just call the turn re-raise, I'd HAMMER him on the river. Did that make sense? Just a thought. I love this game.
I played this hand last night. Low-limit, pretty loose table. This type of situation comes up often and I am never sure how to handle it.
I am in the BB with Jh Jc.
MP limps, LP limps, SB folds, I limp. 3 players, 3.5 SB in the pot.
Flop is 2c 6c 3d
I bet, both players call. Still 3 players, now there is 6.5 SB in the pot.
Turn is 7h
I bet, MP folds, LP raises.
What do I do? And what do I do on the river (if I'm still around?)
sam
(btw, a 6 fell on the river and I lost to 6s full of 3s)
Preflop, you should raise from your big blind with pocket jacks against only two limping opponents. Your hand is almost certainly best and you need to make the other two players pay to play against you.
Of course you bet the flop with your overpair. When both players call this could mean one guy is drawing and the other has a pair, frequently top pair.
On the turn, the 7h is a blank. You bet and get raised with the other player folding. I would call every time here. Your overpair still beats top pair. The guy could be raising on something like Ac-7c or just some hand with a seven, who knows? If he has two pair like sevens over sixes you still have 8 outs to beat this hand.
I would call the river bet as well. In a heads-up situation an overpair is normally a through-ticket unless the board is incredibly scary.
I was playing in a good 4/8 game last night. Picked up AQ one off the button. A player who I have played with a few times raises in middle position. The player has shown some loose raising standards (ie. KQ under the gun, suited aces early etc.) I reraise (to get the flop heads up and because my AQ is better than many of the hands she raises with) and we see the flop heads up.
Flop A K 2 rainbow.
She Checks and calls my bet
turn is a blank
She check raises me.
I called and called again after river blanked.
Was shown AK
Here are my questions.
1. Should I have mucked this in the first place.
2. Once I decided to play, should have I checked the turn.
as a fairly new player any advice/info would be appreciated
thanks Brad
If a player has the loose raising standards you suggest, I would definitely 3 bet this hand. If the player is a solid early position raiser I would fold. I like your play the entire way. If you know the person well enough to know you are beat when you are check raised, then you can let go of this hand then. If you don't you have to call it down.
Derrick
Derrick has this right.
I also agree. Against aggressive players, sometimes you have to bite the bullet and call them down when they pull a move like this. Given Brad's description of the player, I think he played fine. This particular time she had a better hand than his, but if he has her assessed correctly, he will do better against her in the long run in similar situations.
Remember, the true measure of your play is not what the individual result was on any given play, but whether or not you made the correct play at the time you had to decide. I wouldn't check the turn here in case she had raised with KQ or a weak ace, and once raised on the turn, I would have also called her down.
Dave in Cali
You should fold to the checkraise on the turn from an obvious-playing player as you are likely drawing dead.
Chris
I would have folded after the check raise you should have know that she must have had something to check raise with.
I am just curious as to if anyone knows where the best card rooms are in the Oregon/Washington area. Take into consideration the looseness of play, rake, and other accomodations. My freinds and I are looking to take a little trip. My freinds and I aren't 21 yet so the room would have to have an age limit of 18.... All info appreciated.
Ganked
I believe Chinook Winds only has 3 poker tables...so I wouldn't choose that one...but there is a vast amount of card rooms in Washington, but I dont know too much about them....
Shaftman
Yea I heard the same about Chinook... So I am really just curious as to good rooms in Washington. Thanks for the input.
Ganked
Your best bet in the Portland area is the New Frontier in La Center WA. I think 18 is ok, and the action is great. Spirit Mountain in Grande Rhonde has good action and is non-smoking.
La Center is where I usually play and I was actually looking to take a little trip to like Seattle or Tacoma or something. Wondering if it is worth it to go there or just play at La Center.
Ganked
Ganked,
Here is a quick rundown of the rooms around Seattle. If I had to guess I would say very few allow 18yr. olds though. Give 'em a call. If you find one that does, email me and I'll tell you more about it. I know some fun home games/tourneys in Seattle too. Email me for details.
I only play Hold 'Em so am not well versed on what other games are spread where.
Muckleshoot Casino in Auburn (800) 804-4944
Biggest room in the area (30 tables?). Spreads HE from 4-8 to 20-40. LL players are competent but there are enough fish to make the game profitable for a thinking player. Pretty good food, you get almost anything on the menu just for asking. Nice staff. Can get busy on weekends but they have a lot of tables so waits are not too bad. Excellent players at the higher limits.
Diamond L'ils in Renton (206) 255-9037
Nice smaller room (~10 tables) connected to a restaurant/lounge. Great staff. HE from 3-6 to 12-24. Pretty smokey. 1/2 price on food while playing, but its only so-so. LL games are very beatable, especially on weekends. 6-12 and 8-16 are pretty tight but passive in general, beatable if you have good skills.
The Hideaway in Shoreline (206) 362-9494
Closest room to Seattle and the grimiest. 4 tables, usually two 4-8 and two 10-20. Shitty food, shitty service and the games are generally the wildest in the area. I have been in games with people capping pre-flop without looking. Prepare for big swings at either level, but smart play can win you some dough.
Kenmore Lanes in Bothell (206) 486-8646
I am pretty sure this one might be OK for 18 year olds. Very small room in a bowling alley. Usually only 2 tables going, both 3-6 or 4-8 depending on player's choice. Lots of young players, many of whom are bad. A few older rocks. Notorious for loose but not wild games. No fold'em. See the flop for one bet and chase type action. Wait can be hell on weekends.
New Sonny's in Federal Way (253) 945-0777
Nice, clean room attached to a Chinese restaurant. Might be another good bet for under 21. Spreads HE 4-8 to 12-24. Nice staff and clean room, only moderately smokey. Haven't been there for live action in a while but they have a nice 25 buy-in 25 rebuy NL tourney every morning at 10AM. Local pros haunt the 8-16 and 12-24 games.
These are only a sample of many rooms in WA. Go to www.pokersearch.com for a list and phone numbers but not much else info.
Re:rake. I play recreationally only and so don't pay much attention to the rake. If I did it might discourage me from playing and that would keep me from enjoying myself! Anyway, I think it is pretty reasonable--around 10% up to 3 or 4 bucks, plus jackpot buck. As far as I know there is not one place that advertises as having a lower rake than anywhere else.
Good luck.
KJS
Thanks a lot for all the info. I'll look into the rooms you provided.
Ganked
Mandalay Bay $4-8 game, $1-2 blinds.
MP limps, CO calls, I check in the BB with 5-7 clubs. $7 in the pot. (Only $2 to call the blinds)
Flop: 4,6,8 mixed
Flop the straight. What's the best way to play this? I check planning to raise if bet, but also thinking getting an overcard on the turn might get me some action from one or both of these guys if checked around. It gets checked around.
Turn: 5, crap!
Now I bet and get called all the way, they both show a 7. Cut nothing 3-ways. CO, a regular who had 7-8s, comments "you should have bet the flop, it would have gotten MP out"
CO's statement is probably true. But,IMO he should have bet the flop w/top pair and the straight draw.
Comment on my play. I'm a very new player.
Sometimes betting the hand is the best deception--the other players will often assume that you would check if you floped a straight. This works best when you bet out and are raised. Depending on the player, I would reraise or wait until the turn and check raise.
As a low limit player new to the game due yourself a huge favor and minimize your use of the check-raise in these situations. In low limit games, players are not as aggressive as they are in middle limit games and you cannot rely on your passive opponents to bet your hand for you. Bet your own hand. While it is temporarily the nuts, it can be overtaken downstream. You will get calls from drawing hands, from top pair hands, from overpairs, or from any loose, goose with any piece of the board. These players will call with a lot more hands than they will bet with themselves. The fact that two players both happen to have a seven and a five showed up on the turn is just happenstance and it probably would have occurred whether you bet your hand or not since a guy with a seven figures he has a gutshot straight draw and will call anyway.
I agree with Jim and George. You should bet here. Although you currently have the nuts, you can most definitly be out drawn. tl
I'm BB with A3s, 4 players, no raise, free play for me. Flops come J J 3 r. I check, check, check, button bets. I fold, fold, call. Buttons bets turn and river and is called. He shows AQo, the caller doesn't show. Was my fold correct? Was the buttons play a bluff or a good play? I felt my hand was to weak to get involved. Any comments?
nt
I think you definitely were correct in folding, not only because youre hand is weak but you are out of position as well. You could have very easily run into a check-raise here if you call the button bluff. I think the button made a bad bet on the flop and is lucky he didn't get called by more than one player. I wonder what the other guy had, that he would call on the flop, turn, river, and then not be able to beat A-Q?
I would definitely semi-bluff bet this hand on the flop. You have "the right to first steal" if you can represent a J and get the field to fold. Plus you have a made hand which might be best. You even have very slim redraw outs if you get called by a J. If this is the type of game where someone will fold a hand like 44 or 55 a bet is definitely in order.
If you bet and get raised you can dump it and if you get called down you can either try to push them off on the turn or just dump to a turn bet. Knowing your players will help here.
KJS
In my opinion, if you decide to continue here you have to be very aggressive to find out what you are up against. I believe folding here is correct 99% of the time. The 1 percent that you do play it, it will be costly if you lose. With 5 callers, good chance the J is out there. You and the button are in steal positions. When the button bet you would have to raise or fold. Hopefully, if the J is out, you will be re-raised and then you can dump. But a lot of times the lone J will just smooth call the stealers and raise on the turn. Then what do you do? Ahhh fold. Sometimes it is best to avoid pissing contests with obvious bluffs. Oh yeah one more thing. Maybe the button does actually have the J. TL
I like T. Logan's assessment of the steal posibilities in this hand. In my opinion, you really nailed it.
What kind of player is the button? Beginner? Seasoned? Recreational? Loose cannon?
With a rainbow ragged flop like that (no straight or flush out), someone with a J is not going to bet the flop if he/she is any reasonable player. They'll wait for the turn where the bets double or even the river if the board is ragged enough (say an offsuit 7 hits the turn). If he/she is a predictable beginner and will bet with a J, say nice hand, thank you very much, smile and muck as fast as you can.
When the button bets, I ask myself, Why????? That's a weak play to buy 4 small bets. If you do call in this situation, better make sure nobody else comes with you. But then again, you'll find out where the J is really quick. If it's just you and the button, I recommend a check raise on the turn with a safe card (no paint or ace.) Then bet out on the river. Again, I'd only recommend if it's just you and the button after the flop. If a third player comes, then check and fold.
Guys,
I just gave some advice on another forum and wanted to run it by you knowledgeable people as well.
Assume that I am sitting on the turn with a flush, heads-up against an opponent who flopped a set. Assume that I played correctly up to that point (always my biggest and weakest assumption). If I suspect my opponent has a set don't I need to be hyper-aggressive on the turn betting for the fear of the board pairing on the river?
Jon I.
I would say YES!! If my math is correct (big if), the board wil pair about 21.7% of the time or 4.6-1. So you're going to win the hand over 78% of the time (assuming your opponent has no other outs except pairing the board). I like those odds and would try to get as much money in the middle as possible.
If you have a flush and you knew with 100% certainty that your lone opponent has a set, then he has 10 cards from 46 unseen cards (not counting the two cards in your hand) with which to beat you. He is a 3.6:1 dog. For every dollar you raise, you are getting a dollar in return and you are a 3.6:1 favorite to win. You should love this kind of return and keep raising until one of you is all-in. Of course, this is highly artificial since you never really know this for sure. If your flush is the nut flush then you can raise with impunity but otherwise, at some point you have to back off without the nuts.
Wouldn't 10 cards from 46 unseen be: 10/46 -> 4.6 - 1?
No. 46 is the total number of unknown cards. 10 is the cards that will improve your opponent. The number of cards then, that DON'T improve him is 36. Thus the ratio is 36 to 10 or 3.6 to 1. You win 3.6 times for every 1 time he wins.
Sorry, I was thinking probability and not odds. For the record odds = (probability of the event happening)/(probability of the event not happening). So in this case (10/46)/(1-(10/46)) -> (10/46)/(36/46) -> 10/36 or 3.6 - 1.
Thanks, Jim. That is exactly how I had it figured (although I assumed 44 remaining unknown cards, considering the assumption that you know the opponents hole cards). I advised the player accordingly.
Jon I.
I agree that you do need to as you said it, "be hyper aggressive". Only problem, if your opponent is a good player, he will play his position and try to avoid putting too much money into a pot that he is quite possibly a dog to win. If you are first and you bet into him, he might (and should) simply call. If he is behind you, he might check, or if he does bet and you raise, he won't re-raise. thanks
set against a flush on 4th street(the turn).
normally you figure on 4 board cards + 2 cards in each hand=4 =8 52-8=44 cards are left unseen. 10 hurt and 34 are good. 34 to 10 = 3.4 to 1 favorite for the flush. or the set will win i in 4.4 times. everyone that plays poker needs to understand this simple thing.
Thanks, Ray. That was the exact odds computation I had given him.
Jon I.
I am fairly new to poker. In a 4/8 game (2/4 blinds) what are playable hands out of the small blind? Assuming unraised with 3 or 4 callers. I realize some of the automatic folds. I have problems with hands like Ax, T6s, 86s or other marginal hands from this position.
In unraised pots, being halfway in allows you to limp for half a bet on a vast array of garbage. Any pair is playable. For suited cards you can go all the way down to six-five suited, eight-six suited, and ten-seven suited. Offsuit you can go as low as nine-eight, jack-nine, and even queen-eight. The important thing is to not get trapped with this cheese after the flop. You want to catch a great flop or get out cheaply. Occasionally, if you have three or fewer opponents you can bet any piece of the board (middle pair, bottom pair, a draw) and hope that everyone folds. If you get called, you have some outs.
A time ago you said in a post that you have to play the SB the same as though you were on the button (Ciafonne's rule or something i believe). When I read your post now it seems a bit contradictonary to me. I wouldnt play 98o or J9 on the button for instance with 3-4 limpers, although I would play it from the SB with 3-4 limpers.
Could you plz explain to me when the rule applies and when you base your opinion on pot odds (because you're halfway in)?
Thanks
That rule applies to calling raises from the small blind not limping from the small blind. The rule is that if you would not cold-call a raise from the button then you should not call the raise from the small blind either.
If the BB wasn't going to raise I would play any 2 suited cards and any connectors 54 or greater. I would not play Ax because it is a trap hand. If you can't muck a pair on the flop you should fold a lot more often.
Just My Thoughts.
Derrick
I would play any suited 3 gapper , and Axs and Kxs.
I would not play J2s for a half of bet or any other high low combination except A or Kxs.
I am not questioning your strategy. It appears solid. Would you play T9o for half a bet with 4 callers?
Derrick
What is your EV against stupid fish?
I apologize if this has already been discussed
I am mostly an Internet player averaging about 2-3BB hour (2 handed). I sat down at a casino ring game yesterday waiting for a tournament to start. Maybe my thinking has been skewed by PP as to what constitutes a weak game, because I could not believe the quality of play.
These guys were not just fish they were stupid fish. Example, turn and river brought Q,Q giving me a runner runner set and I raise screaming I have a Q. I got 4-5 callers who had nothing. Simply unbelievable!
After the tourney, I sat in a 6-12 game that was as bad as the first. Guys would sit down, burn through a few hundred and a new fish would take his place to do the same thing.
I suffered through 4 huge bad beats and still ended the night positive.
Question – what kind of hourly rate can one expect from a game like this? Can I top my 2-3BB at PP? I am thinking of adding more live play based on this.
The only thing that sucked was that you could make zero moves which made the game kinda boring. On hand 3 I tried to isolate a fish with a 3 bet only to get 5 callers. That was the last move I made the entire night.
Unfortunately, like you said the problem with playing against many fish is that you will suffer very big bad beats, but you will make a large amount of money over all. I don't think over time you could top 2-3 BB / hour. This is a big number IMO.
IMO I find ring games much easier in the casino then online. If you get a loose passive game like you probably found you can probably approach 2-3 BB/hour. If the game becomes more aggressive or tighter, you have to deal with less hands per hour in the casino.
You are also correct that it is a much more mechanical game in the casino. Why make a move against a group that has no understanding... why isolate the fish when there are 4 fish that will follow...
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
I think 2-3 BB/hr is a reasonable number for the game you're describing. I've been doing that fairly consistantly for the last 4 months. As for making a move, it can be done but you have to wait for the right moments. One of the requirements to making a move is that there must be some chance that you will win the pot right there. This will never happen against more than one or two opponents, you simply WILL get called. The right time are those rare occasions when you get heads up and can put your opponent on a draw (this is pretty easy against very weak players). Usually even fish will fold if they miss completely.
10-handed game, loose passive (3/6)
Next to UTG (NTU) calls, I raise with AQo, button, SB and BB call, as does NTU.
Flop: J Q 5 twotone.
Checked to NTU, who bets, I raise, button and SB call, BB folds, NTU calls.
Turn: 2 (third suit)
Checked to me, I bet, button raises, SB folds, NTU cold calls. There are 14 BB in the pot. I strongly suspect button has QJ, because preflop, he could call a raise with it (loose preflop), and the way he played it I could not figure an other hand, because the 2 could not have helped him, and with a big draw I think he would raise me on the flop. He might have AQ also (JJ and QQ would he probably 3-bet preflop with) . I suspect NTU to be on a draw. Now I think I have a pretty big problem, because I have about the odds to draw a 3 outer (the aces, if he has QJ), but the A of the twotone suit might not be an out, since SB could easily be on a flush draw.
What would you do?
Thanks.
Tough one... would button raise the turn with KQ or AQ? It is a tough decision because of the 3rd player in the pot. Heads up I would call this down, but because the 3rd player in the pot could have me beat as well, or could easily draw out on me... and I may be behind, I would probably fold. If the button plays tricky, I would still call this down with the extra person in the pot.
Derrick
The button has you either with Q-J or 5-5. If NTU has K-10 you're drawing dead. If he has a flush draw you have 2 outs. You don't have the pot odds to draw here and a fold is in order. In LL a raise on the turn is generally fairly reliable.
In general, I would fold when popped on the turn with a raiser and a cold-caller having only one pair even top pair, top kicker. You are frequently playing three outs and sometimes no outs. The only time I would stay with this hand is if I have noticed that my opponents occasionally do goofy things like waiting until the turn to raise with top pair or they like to raise on the turn with just a come hand (a flush-draw in this case).
To reiterate... man this is a tough one.
Ok... everyone who has posted a response thus far will probably disagree with me... but give me a chance. You really have a passable hand at this point. You raised up front which definitely indicates strength. No one at this point I believe can have any doubt about the strength of your hand. You even raised the flop with top pair top kicker. There's no reason to believe that anyone can beat what you're holding at this point with a dangerous flop out. If the button has a set (5-5 or J-J), he has to make it 3 bets to protect his hand. NTU has to have a Q to bet out on flop, nothing else suggests otherwise. Is button a big enough dunderhead to play motown? (J-5)
My one question is this... had you raised a lot with A-big (suited or unsuited) during this game and been caught a few times? If so, I might suspect the button is trying to test you to see if you have AK or something in that vein. If not, what do these players figure you for? You've invested $12 at this point and fired away on the turn ($6 more). In my mind, the least you could possibly have would be AQ. How about QQ or JJ? If I'm playing, I definitely find this a possibility (an unpleasant one for me). It's obvious that someone is drawing (at least SB). The only legit straight draw on the flop is K-10. Would somebody coldcall that in the blind (out of position)? For these reasons, I believe the play would be to reraise.
You'll find out real quick where you are. I find the odds of the button having the case Q to be long at best. Would he smooth call an overpair (AA or KK?) preflop and on the flop with a dangerous board? I don't think so. In addition, you probably get SB and BB to curse, grumble, and either make a crying call or fold leaving dead money in pot. If the button makes it 4 bets, then I'm pretty sure you're against a superior hand and can make a fresh determination. The option of folding would be pretty clear now.
If button just calls, you might be able just to lay down your hand or bet again for value on the end. It just depends on how you feel and how much control you have over the button. If the flush card comes you're definitely beat. How bout an A? If you took it to 3 bets on the turn, person who might have had K-10 might lay that down on the turn, giving you 3 more cards. Do the math, if you make it 3 bets on turn, it costs you the same amount to see the turn and river if the button will check the river.
One more question...How are you doing in this session? Are you up big? Up a little? Down? Table image has a lot to do with this play. If you pull this off and do have the best hand... these people will not mess with you and become predictable in their hands against you in future encounters. Thus, even though you're putting $30+ in and might not win, I think that in the near future (during that session) you will save $$$ when more passive players check their passable hands to you instead of bet, then you call. Even if you lose, these people will not push you around because they will remember this hand and cringe at the thought of putting in $$$ against you. I really would like some feedback on this. I hope it starts lots of discussion.
PS: I myself play in low limit hold em games (3-6, 4-8, and 6-12) and have used the play to my advantage more than once. Can't argue with results. :)
Fold. The button could also have 55 or even JJ, leaving you drawing dead.
Chris
Where I play the max bet is $5. Most games are 2-5 spread, and while I don't get to play a lot, I do OK. On weekends are some $5 games. 5 bet, 5 raise, period. Three raises except head to head, then no limit. Will these $5 games be played differently? Thanks in advance.
the two buck bet lets you limp in cheaper sometimes from late position wereas the 5 game will be faster and more aggressive. you will need better hands to play but will not very often fold for a raise where in the 2-5 you will quite often open for 2 and then fold.
The structure you describe is the same as the casinos here in Colorado.
I've never played the 5-5 games and I don't want to (not that I really want to play 2-5 either). As Ray points out, you can limp in with a lot of speculative hands in 2-5 whereas in 5-5 you have to pay too much for them up front. Furthermore, you can punish your opponents for limping in 2-5 pretty severely when you raise to 7 preflop.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
The 5/5 structure would promote playing more big cards and less suited hands. (Of course if it's suited and big that's an extra bonus). But you want to have a hand that will hit the flop fairly hard or that can win unimproved. I'm not sure as to what hands I would play in a game like this, AA-99, AK-ATs, AK-AJo, KQs-KJs, KQo maybe.
As the other posts stated you can play more speculative hands (suited connectors, small pairs etc.) in the 2-5 game but you still need to be fairly tight, and if many pots are raised preflop most of theese hands will have to hit the muck aswell.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Sincerly, Andreas
If you're in Colorado visit or call The Tattered Cover bookstore in Cherry Creek or Rocky Mountain Gaming on Kipling and Colfax and buy "Claiming Colorado," a good book on $2-5 hold 'em by G. Ed Conley, who posts here occasionally. I think you can also get it through Amazon.
And everyone's right: in $2-5 you can play a few more hands but still stay away from unsuited junk like 65o and be prepared to fold specultive hands to a $5 raise. The ubiquitous tendency to raise the max means that a lot of passive players won't raise preflop unless they're huge, and with some players this means AA/KK.
Thanks all, I am in Colorado and will try to get the book mentioned.As you might expect, a lot of getting run down by junk cards in the 2-5 game. Thought there might be a bit less of this in the5-5. I enjoy this site, it has definately improved my game.
I had a problem the other day at a club were there was collussion between two players, I played for a while used some tactics to my advantage but then a new player arrived at the table. I noticed that over 95% of his deals meant winning with monster hands such as Four of a Kind, Full House and Straight Flushes. He won over $600. My question is how do you stop someone who is cheating using culling and stacking methods? What defenses can you take?
nm