![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
3-6 HE at the mirage. Game is very loose and there are two aggressive players in the game, one tight aggressive to my left, the other a semi-maniac who likes to raise often on less than stellar hands and plays draws aggressively. Not the best position at the table, but no seat change coming soon….
BTF I get AhKs on the button. 4 limp and I raise. BB is the semi-maniac (SM) who calls, all call, 6 players.
Flop is Kd Td 8s. Checked to me, I bet. BB check-raises and two call. I reraise him since I know he very well does not have me beat. He reraises again and again two more callers, I back off and just call.
Turn is Kh. BB checks, check, this time a new bettor bets out, a nice old man two to my right (this player will come up again in a future post). He has been fairly quiet and only bets with pretty good hands but plays a little loose before the flop. A new bettor? This surprises me. I decide that the BB doesn’t have me beat, and I should charge him big bucks to continue with his charade. I raise the old man. BB has a look of anger in his face and reluctantly calls. The old man calls and the rest fold.
River is a total blank. Checked to me, I bet. BB shows AdJd face up and folds. Old man calls and has KcQc. I win a big pot.
The questions raised by this hand:
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn’t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players were playing cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpers….
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very large….
Dave in Cali
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn¹t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players wereplaying cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpersŠ.
The key is you had position being on the button. I'd raise with AK here like you did.
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
I love it, charge the draws as much as possible. Although, if I'm the SB, I would definitely play with you.
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very largeŠ.
One of the best plays I've heard on the LL forum. You were absoutely correct raising the turn. The KQ is trapped and the big draw is still going to pay the price to stay in. With one card to come, the draw has 10 outs, the KQ has 2 outs, and 6 cards tie the KQ. You will win outright 80% of the time, tie 15% and lose 5% of the time. Plus, the KQ will payoff a river bet. With plays like this, you will be a mid-limit player in a short time. Well done.
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn’t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players were playing cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpers….
Go with your gut, and make the weaker hands pay. you probably don't mind losing a few players, as that will increase your odds of winning this hand.
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
I don't agree with your raise after the flop. You mentioned that he plays draws aggressively, and is a semi-maniac. What could he hold? K-10? 10-10? Q-J? I see too many hands that he could have.
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very large….
I like this play. It should either give you absolute control of the hand, or let you know that you're beat, especially since anyone who's ahead at this point would have to act before you on the river.
I limp from middle position in a fairly loose passive game with pocket 9's.
Flop: 8c 7d 3h
The blinds check, UTG checks, the player to my right bets. I just call, which I think was a mistake. Should I have raised? I had just sat down at the table, and didn't have any information about the bettor's play. I figured he was most likely betting a pair of 8's or a straight draw. There was no pre-flop raising, so I didn't figure him for a higher pocket pair.
Turn: Jd
Original bettor checks, I check, it checks around.
River: Th
Now I bet with my straight, get a couple callers, and win the pot.
My main question is, am I correct in thinking I should have raised the flop to try and get anyone holding overcards to fold? And, should I have bet the turn after the Jack showed up?
Comments are appreciated.
NotQuiteDead
I just think that you'd want to bet to try to get the tighter players with overcards to pay to beat you. If you don't bet, aren't you just someone else's calling station?
This post makes a good point. The majority of the time I would play it Earl's way and not the way I played it. I simply knew that I could expect inordinate amounts of action at this particular table, so I slowplayed and went for the spectactular turn check-raise!!! After all, there was an audience on the rail!! Getting to be the one to cap it on the flop was just a freebie!! This was the best game I have been in in about 6 months!
Slowplaying is a form of deception, there is no need to be cute in a jamming game like this one.
My only complaint is save the check raise for the river. I would have led the turn despite my monster hand in both cases.
Raising with JJ in the SB is a variance play that paid off for you because you played fast when the flop came down good for your hand.
Normally I wouldn't reraise with JJ in the SB, but in this game I knew there would likely be 7 way action so I didn't mind the extra bet pre-flop. Even capped, what the hey, it's 7 way.... For the most part I do not make this play often nor do I recommend it.
Dave in Cali
I had the following situation come up the other day on a 2/4 holdem table. I had just joined the game and posted a late position blind 1 off the button. I was dealt a miserable looking 42 offsuit, and it was not raised to me, so I naturally checked. The button raised and the action was called back to me. My question here is with 7 other players in the pot and no possibility of a reraise, how many of you would call the extra 2 dollars and see the flop? If you would make the call, what do you do if you get a piece of the flop (say you flop a pair)?
Fold, Fold, Fold! The odds of you getting a hand anywhere near worth playing are pretty small, plus with seven other players still in there's a good chance one (or more) of them has an AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, and even if they don't they could stil get a good hand on the flop.
Further more, if I was in your situation with J9 I would probably fold, due to the number left in. I'd only stick for the flop with an Ace or a King, a high pair and perhaps go as low as 98 suited.
But hey, I'm a passive guy!
I think Ace-Jack offsuit is a better hand than most good players give it credit for. I tend to agree with Dave in Cali's comments. In an unraised pot, if the flop comes Ace-high your Jack kicker is probably worth a lot since anyone with AA,AK, or maybe AQ would have raised. If the pot is unraised and the flop is Jack-high, your top pair of Jacks with the top kicker is a very strong holding. No one will have AA,KK, or QQ. You can frequently get away from this hand if the flop misses you and any serious betting takes place. In a raised pot, you can easily fold unless you are in the big blind in which case I would normally call but be ready to dump it fast once the flop comes. I will also play it in a raised pot if the raiser may be on a steal or just raising light (e.g.-open raises from middle position).
A-J plays real well in a game where folks play A-x all the time. Catching someone on A-x-x flop where you have the best kicker is where you make lots of money in hold'em.
If first in, raise or fold based on the game.
If there are cllers, raise or call based on what you know about the people ahead of you.
If I have A-Js on the button or late and there have been loose callers in front. I'll be more likely to pop it so as to build a pot and also to catch all the KJ, QJ, JT that I have dominated when or if the flop comes J high.
I have read some books and I've been working on a preflop strategy and have tweaked some things for a typical 3-6 game. I was wondering if any could help me adjust it more if needed. Also if I limp then get raised what should I play in each position.
*Early Play*
Always Play 1)Big and Semi-big pair (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT) 2)Large suited and Ten suited connectors (AK-AT)suited,(KQ-KT)suited,(QJ-QT)suited, JTs 3)The large unsuiteds AK, AQ, AJ, KQ *Raise with AA, KK (AKs AQs QQ JJ only if tighter game)
*Middle Play*
--If lots of callers in front
*Add higher suited connectors (78s, 89s, 9Ts), Lower pairs (88,99*hoping for trips) some gapped 8-10 being lowest
--If nobody or 1 person in play Add lower range high cards (AT, AJ, KQ)
*Late Play*
--If lots of callers (6+) BIG POT Add rest of pocket pairs, you are most likely gonna only see the flop, but if you get your trips you are loving it. Remember you know the lower pocket pairs are no good, but they may score you a trips, and if you are in the conservative mood DO NOT play this. Add suited connectors upto 56s and gapped upto 6-8s, only hoping for flush draw or straight draw. àAdd AX’s and higher KX’s hoping for the flush draw
*remember lots of times with these gambles we are not gonna get them, but 1/5 times we will and thats worth the 3 dollar flop call. Over time we are making lots of money.
--If raise with lots of callers If a raise happens then you will know the outcome, if GOOD pot odds then play the bad ones more then the good ones, play the flush draws, the medium pair, hoping for that miracle money maker. Remember the raiser has no better then a pair at the start. You want to add deception and play the flush, trip, straight draws, hoping for a chance at a large pot.
--If few callers <3 Play original, but play more (KQ, KJ, KT, AJ, AT QJ, QT, JT)*basically any big cards They are not the best but may see the flop with these, and pull something off. Must be sure that you are not gonna get raised, if so fold them. They are not like the above suited connectors and low pairs, they want pot odds. If raised play the good hands only.
-->SO I am basically wondering if my thinking is okay and if this strategy can be improved, any comments or constructive critisisms??
I just starting playing 1 week ago, and we played 2 games at 3-6 and one game at 5-10 and I'm up 400 american.
The overwhelming amount of money is made on and beyond the flop, most notably on the turn.
If you are playing well there, you have lots of good things to look forward to.
P.S. Now that I have that out of the way, your starting requirements are (or at least seem to be) pretty close to right on the button...no pun intended.
You might be playing a little tight - most 3-6 games allow you to play a few more hands than those you described - but if so, I wouldn't worry about it; a LITTLE BIT too tight is almost never a bad thing, especially while you are just starting out. Good Luck,
J-D
*Early Play* (the first 3 seats in a 9 handed game)
1). Big and Semi-big pair (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT)
You should just call with TT, raise with the others.
2) Large suited and Ten suited connectors (AK-AT)suited,(KQ-KT)suited,(QJ-QT)suited, JTs
Far too many hands, you should stay with AK,AQ,AJ suited and maybe KQ suited. The others are trap hands
3) The large unsuiteds AK, AQ, AJ, KQ
*Raise with AA, KK (AKs AQs QQ JJ only
if tighter game)
The only one of these I would touch is AK and you need to raise with it.
*Middle Play* (4th and 5th seats)
--If lots of callers in front
*Add higher suited connectors (78s, 89s, 9Ts), Lower pairs (88,99*hoping for trips) some gapped 8-10 being lowest
Too many hands again. If you have 2 or more callers, you can chance the pairs you mentioned.You can add some of the other connectors like QJ-T9 assuming the pot is not raised. Your cards do not have to be suited.
--If nobody or 1 person in play Add lower range high cards (AT, AJ, KQ)
I would pass on AT, raise with AJ and KQ in an effort to thin the field.
*Late Play*
--You can play the small pairs and Ax suited, in the ideal case for one bet. Your correct when you state a set is a good hand with many players. However, you need to be real careful with small suited cards. The best sceranio is a straight, not a flush.
*remember lots of times with these gambles we are not gonna get them, but 1/5 times we will and thats worth the 3 dollar flop call. Over time we are making lots of money.
You need to rethink the above statement.
--If few callers <3 Play original, but play more (KQ, KJ, KT, AJ, AT QJ, QT, JT)*basically any big cards They are not the best but may see the flop with these, and pull something off. Must be sure that you are not gonna get raised, if so fold them. They are not like the above suited connectors and low pairs, they want pot odds. If raised play the good hands only.
If the pot is raised, I would fold all of these hands until you learn better flop tactics.
You are on the right line of thinking. In the early seats, you want to play big hands because you have to act first and to reduce the odds of the draw hands you mentioned. In the middle seats, a lot depends on the game texture, but in most cases if the pot is raised, you should only play early position hands. In the late positions, you want to play loose if there are no raises.
A more important factor is the flop. Your play on the flop will determine your sucess in the game.
Well thanks a lot, I am trying to understand the theory instead of just memorizing it. I want to get to the point where I can adjust my play style in different situations based on a learned logic, not by a memorized fact. I still am a bit "iffy" on raises after you limp, should I narrow down on playable hands quite a bit?? For instance, I would think that any suited connectors would stay in as long as there are many callers to that raise,"or" sufficient pot odds, but if you had KQo that you would probably fold with a raise and many callers as these hands do not play well against a lot of people. But then again, folding a kq would bug me a bit. What I would like to know is what do I do with a raise after I limp in, should I narrow it down a lot or should I follow through?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated
Fieldy
Pre-flop theory is fasinating, and I study it as part of my maths Degree. Keep up the good work, your theory seems very good, but just a few points I think you've overlooked. I think you have started with too many variables. To develop efficient strategy, start with unrealistic variables (i.e. set your postion w.r.t the dealer, set no. of check's + folds, e.t.c), also:
Don't fold a KQ(unsuited) too easily, the odds are still decent on the pre-flop on a reasonable sized table (4 or less still active players) and could improve with the flop, if not then consider folding.
As for your initial theory, looks ok, but I'm concerned over the "always play a 10-10" and references to K-10, or Q-10 later on. With five or less players the odds are with you, but unless your bluffing is up to scratch and you opponents are good enough to take a bluff, I wouldn't always play a 10-10 if there was more than 6/7 on the table, the odds are against you.
I wish you good luck
AS1
You can call a single raise 100% of the time.
2 off the button with AcQs, 4 calls to me, I call, button raises, SB folds, BB and everyone else call. Player on button has raised here with just about anything, very loose and agressive.
Flop comes JhTd9h, all check to me, I bet, button calls, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn is 8h giving our hero the straight and worrying about a flush or KQ.
BB bets, what should I do?
I call. It's this call that sticks in my mind as maybe a bad play.
The button raises, BB re-raises. BB player has shown to be a decent player. What should I do now?
I'll post later how it finished.
Thanks everyone,
Mike
Raise when the BB bets the turn. You might force out the button, which would be good. You also might get reraised by the button or the BB, in which case fold. If you plan to call to the river, it will cost you two bets anyway, assuming no raise (you hope). Therefore it is a better play to spend the two bets now and raise, and try to increase your chances of winning the pot. If you go into calling station mode it also gives the other two players a chance to get you caught in a raising war. Don't let them control the hand, do it yourself. Raise. If you get reraised you are almost always beat by either KQ or a flush, so you fold and know you were beat. If you don't feel comfortable raising on the turn when the BB bets, then why are you in the pot? Either way, take control of the hand and don't play like a wimp.
Dave in Cali
raising into two players one who has just come to life and bet a big bet into players who are known raisers seems like an incredibly stupid wreckless idea.
even if you did somehow win you would likely split the pot with another queen, this has to be taken into account, so now your raising with a fair chance that youll only get half the pot.. if the button is loose/aggresive as you say he is going to want to see the showdown no matter what. even still, another heart could fall on the river, and you dont have a one. this is low limit we're talking. youre not going to be able to get anyone off a hand with a board like that. when you take all these factors into account you shouldnt raise. the only reason for a raise here is for to build the pot if you have the nuts or near nuts. you have neither.
raising will do no good except make you look like a fish at the showdown. i think your call on the turn is safe cause you may be looking at a bb with a 7 or Q, or a four-flush draw or both, but everything else is trouble that will have you drawing dead and throwing away your money. once it's reraised back to you, you simply have to fold.
I ended up folding for the 2 bets, thinking the whole time if I had raised, getting to the river would probably only cost me 1 call, and I might have knocked out one of the other players. Was obviosly worried about the flush.
The button called the re-raise.
The river brought a blank. Both players checked and the BB showed T7o (not even a heart in there) and the button took down a nice pot with his Q.
I learned something from the button's raise.
I would have folded with three suited cards out there, with 2 raises I have to put one of them on the flush.
im wondering, what did you learn? how would you have played it differently? you were trapped out of position with a three flush on board. i guess if you played it now youd do it differently cause you know the way those two play, but at the time you played it the only reasonable way.
Trace the hand back to the start.
1. I would have raised with AQ in the cutoff despite the fact this will be a multiway pot.
2. On the flop, you have an open-end draw, but there is also a flush draw. Notice you do not have a heart. Your be correct. Also realize both KQ and 87 have you beat.
3. Most players when they hit on the turn will
check-raise. I think you should raise once and if re-raised throw the hand away.
Lets say UTG raises, and 4 more people call. The SB calls and its to you. Lets say you have K9o.
Now do you call? With 13-1 odds, I would call with K9o. I would dump K8o.
Do you call with QTo or Q9o? How about 78o? How about 96s?
they are all borderline but I suppose if it couldn't get raised again I would call with some of those hands. I would just be prepared to dump on the flop if I didn't flop good. And I would be especially careful with the kings and queens if I flopped top pair. either way, you are still pushing your luck calling raises with trash, so if you choose to do so I hope you are much better than your opponents at post flop play. I suspect that you still wouldn't lose much by folding most of those hands, even for 13:1.
A lot depends on your read of him but personally I pop him back when he raises. He could have a wide variety of hands. Likely holdings might include a straight (does he seem the type to call a raise from the blind with 6-8)two pair, jacks, 2nd pair on the board, or trip 5's. A re-raise I think more narowly defines your hands. If he caps it, you better slow down and even consider folding either her or depending on the river. If he calls, you may be ok...
What is the point of reraising? You are beat more than half the time at least.
I disagree. I think the most likely of a range of hands you face here are either trips or jacks with a weak kicker. Lesser likely hands might be a straight but your opponent would have to have called a raise with 6-8 before the flop. Two pair is possible also. The re-raise a) tells you where you are. if you get capped, you know you are likely a facing a better hand and you can either dump what you are holding or call and see what the river brings. b) a call from your opponent puts you back in control of the hand and could get a fold from a slightly stronger hand either here or on the river. Again i think it depends on what kind of read you have on your opponent what is best to do.
JV,
Don't know where you got the half figure. Assuming a solid player, the range of hands worth a pre-flop call of a raise on the button favors ones that lose to AA vs. ones that it beats. The raiser could have a set, but that is all to fear, really. Many players in a 3-6 game would play AJ, KJs, QQ and KK the same way. If you favor calling the raise and check calling the river, I say put your 2 big bets in now and see where you are. You can pretty confidently dump your Aces to a reraise here. More confidently that you can pay off a hand on the river.
KJS
There are two major errors here. First, why the heck are you assuming a solid player? It's 3-6! I wouldn't even necessarily assume a solid player at 20-40, let alone 3-6. Second, the problem with re-raising and folding to a 4-bet is that you may be mistakenly folding when you have a bunch of outs. If your opponent has some screwy 2 pair like 75 or 54, you have quite a few outs, and folding would be a mistake, especially since you've made the pot so large by putting in 3 bets on the turn while your opponent has put in 4.
It's not necessarily wrong to 3-bet, but in general I would only 3-bet here if I was prepared to call the 4-bet and call on the river. You could make a case for 3-betting and folding to a 4-bet *if and only if* your opponent would only 4-bet with a set or straight, but there are plenty of players who'd 4-bet with 2 pair, so you can't necessarily make a reliable laydown.
-Sean
The biggest mistake is the losers not asking for their money back with a deck with a couple of 3c's.
I suppose that might be a misprint.
Cazz
oops - that would be a 4c and 3h...txs. poor proof read. spitball
seems like we all would have either made alot more money or punished the k's for waiting til the river, but what strikes me as strange is how well DS's fundamental theory works here. how much more money would you have made or lost if you held their hands. it never suprises me when someone flops a set and never raises or bets it hard for fear a straight MIGHT be out there. i guess our graduation from low limit is realizing the spots where we can gain and where they can lose more. but im not gonna go anywhere just yet, the CASH is too good at these limits just my 15 cents
What a train wreck!
One of the basic axioms is if you have it, bet or raise as much as possible. Otherwise, pitch your hand in the muck.
Hi there...
2-4 at Paradise yesterday...
I've only been sitting for 20 minutes. As far as I can tell the table is a bit looser than your typical Paradise table. Raises are usually cold called by 4-5 players including the blinds. So I know some of the players are loose but I know nothing about the player involved in the next hand (except I think he played the hand very badly). He's not been to a showdown yet.
So I'm 4 off the BB in middle position. The other player (OP) is sitting on my right. He open-raises. I have K-T of clubs. Usually this goes in the muck. But seing that several players usually cold call a raise and that it's likely to get multiway I call. A very marginal call IMO.
Comments ?
I want comments on the call...and :
For completion sake, we saw the flop 5 handed and it came T-9-3 rainbow. He bets, I raise, everyone folds, he calls.
Turn is a T. He checks, I bet he calls.
River is another T.
He checks, I bet, he RAISES, I reraise he calls. duh I win.
He told me he had QQ.
I think he played it badly. he should have repopped it on the flop and bet the turn. Since I was the only opponent he had left. My assesment is that he flat called the flop to check raise me on the turn but got scared when a second T hit. I still think he sould have bet the turn and if I raise he can then safely fold. His raise on the river is just stupid. If he was afraid of the T on the turn his FH is no good on the river.
Comments ?
Thanks...
ThePrince
Nothing personal but I think your analysis of his play is completely wrong.
I like his play except I would have popped you back on the flop and led on the river (and make the crying call on your raise). He could have afraid of trip 9s or 10,9. The possibility of you having that other 10 on the river is now remote and his hand looks good.
I would never have called the pre-flop raise with K10s, even if I believed your analysis of the table. However, I am very conservative but it works for me.
I don't see any problem with your call pre-flop.
The main thing with that hand is to get rid of it quickly with a flop like that. You didn't and just flat out got lucky.
Am I missing something?
What is wrong with his post-flop play? He has KT and the flop is T9x rainbow.
Ken
I agree, CJC is on crack. Top pair - King kicker is good.
Well the KT was sOOted, so calling a raise is marginal because you may not get enough callers for your flush draw, and you may get 1 other guy who calls with ATo.
Now if there were 3 people in ahead of me, and it was only 2 bets to me, I call also. I figure I'm going to be folding if my flush doesn't hit, and if it does its Miller time. ;)
Preflop, I would probably be inclined to fold because your position is horrible (both relative to the field and relative to the preflop raiser; getting stuck in the middle is awful), dominating hands aren't going anywhere and might even 3-bet, and the rake at $2-4 requires fairly tight play preflop. If I had better position I might be inclined to play, particularly if my opponents played poorly postflop.
As far as your opponent's play is concerned, I would be inclined to 3-bet the flop. Leading the turn versus check-calling when the 2nd T hits are opponent dependent. If you are capable of tricky plays, I would be more inclined to check-call, but if you would only raise with a T, then I would bet and fold to a raise. The river check-raise is goofy. It's ok to bet out and call a raise because the third T makes it a lot less likely you have a T, but check-raising will generally cost more when beaten than it'll make when ahead.
-Sean
Playing 5/10 and it is a kill pot 10/20. The UTG raises to 20, the next player makes it 30, the others fold to me, and I am one off the button with two red Queens. I call (I feel I should have raised),the button fold and the SB and BB call, as does the UTG player. 5 player for 150.00
Flop is Js-7s-3c
It is checked to the 4th player, who bets 10, and I call (I feel that I should have raise to at least drop a few player). Only one player drops.
Turn is 2s
It is check around to me and I check (again I think I should have bet.)
River 5s
We all check. Would like to hear how badly I played this hand I have to learn from my mistakes. Thank and good luck.
Not one of the four of use had a spade and I won the pot with the queens. The UTG showed A-K. I feel that I played this hand so badly that I should have lost it but I sucked out.
f
Bet you were suprised, as I was, that I won. Every thing you said about my play of the hand was true and I know that, I could have made more on the hand. Thanks for the advise and I know that next time it will be Raise, Raise, Raise. Good luck and thanks/
You did miss a raise BTF but your biggest error in the hand was not raising on the flop with the overpair and a broken board. With a spade draw and overcards, make them pay.
You also should have bet the turn, then if you get raised reevaluate. I'm a little surprised no one took a shot on the river.
Sorry but I have to say: you play this hand like a little girl. You need to show a lot more aggression preflop and on the flop with your over pair. Good luck.
James, why be sorry for saying what is true. I realized my many mistakes after the hand and you are right I do have to be more willing to bet when I have a good hand.
IN 2-4 HOLD EM GAME I RAISE UTG W/ QQ--FOUR OF US SEE FLOP OF 9-2-K RAINBOW--I BET MIDDLE TWO FOLD & TOUGH OLD GAL RAISES--I RERAISE PUTTING HER ON KINGS HOPING SHE'LL THINK I HAVE A-K SHE CALLS TURN IS A BLANK-I BET SHE CALLS--RIVER ALSO A BLANK I CHECK SHE CALLS AND SHOWS ME POCKET NINES--DID I MISPLAY?
All I can say is this: RAISE RAISE RAISE!!!!!!
Well hell, it's me, that's not all I can say. So allow me to elaborate....
BTF you had to choose between calling or reraising. Had you reraised, you may have driven out the player who had the winning hand. Like some Magoo who drew out on you because he thought his piece of cheese was worth calling two bets cold but maybe not for three.. (I didn't read the results yet). Or you may have charged someone with yet another piece of cheezzze to see the flop. How many flop help you more than they help him? Probably not a bad time to get your $$ in the pot. Before the flop that is. with your big pocket pair. However, if your opponents are tight or rockish, and wouldn't three bet without at least rolled up kings, then perhaps you shouldn't cap it. Overall, with several opponents, you will usually make $$ by making the pot bigger BTF. Then of course some times you are beaten by KK or AA. Again, whether to reraise is probably more a function of your opponent's raising standards than the quality of your hand. After all, it IS a "type-1" hand, just ask feisty ol' Mason or his cohort, El Supremo. By the way I was thinking of nominating DS for Grand Poobah of the universe. Anyone Else agree?
OK, back to the subject. Next it's the flop and you have an OVERPAIR. There is a two flush on the board, plus a possible straight draw (albeit less likely if you had capped it). But whatever, this is not Sklansky territory here. You were afforded the opportunity to RAISE. Once again, you chose not to.
Then the turn comes and you give everyone a free card. With three spades on the board. Checked to you. What, me worry?
The reason hands like AA, KK QQ, AK, AQ, and those kinds of hands are so hard for people to play correctly is that they are worrysome. People don't like the idea of putting $$ into the pot when they might lose the pot. So they do things like not bother raising with their overpairs with a two flush and straight draw on board. Or not reraising BTF with their very good hands against fairly weak opposition. Or checking the turn.
When the river comes, You checked again. Probably the only good move you made the entire hand. Guess the previous three rounds had given you lots of practice doing that.
Bet you wished you woulda raised. what did you lose to? No let me guess. Ah2c? No wait, BLACK POCKET DUECES!!!!
Dave in Cali
tab the beginner needs some analysis please, please be as brutal as you feel fit. Being playing poker software today and I could do with some pointers with some of the hands I came into. I am trying to play against this software in an educated way, in that I am trying to learn why I do certain things and work out what my nasty "pixcel" opponents may be holding. I am waiting for Turbo so this is just a bit of shareware I got my hands on in the mean time. Pixcel player ratings are (Tight,M AND MOT (MANIAC (ON TILT )),Passive, Loose,A (AGGRESSIVE) or multiples there of i.e. TA.
Heres a three course meal for you to get you teeth into:-
~~~~~ starter ~~~~~ In the last three on the final table, I am ahead on chips 7000,5000,4500, progressive blinds now 100,200)
player 1 BBlind Player 2 Raise tab SBlind (kk) ReRaise 1+2 fold. I think I should have called here but I am forcing myself not to become too passive. I picked up 5 bets for this reraise and with this hand maybe I could have made more of it with only 3 players?. Don't know if it was right or not.
~~~~~ main course ~~~~~~ Won this as well and thought I played it well at first, now I am not so sure... Ten players. seat 5 (TAggressive) BB 7 (L) Raise Tab(seat 9) Call with AQ os 3 (M) call 5 call FLOP 986 rainbow 5 bet 7 fold tab raise 3 call 5 call turn brings another 8 5 check tab raise 3 fold 5 fold
won a big pot here and was bang on with my reading of the BB in seat5 (JT os) seat 3 had 5Q clubs, maniac rating as you can see.
~~~~~ desert ~~~~~
Losing hands, I am getting poor return with 6-7 all the time, maybe a row of unlucky flops (not one hit) but I have lost all faith in all low connectors now, I am not chasing them though and am folding immediately after the flop. However thanks to you all my faith is totally restored in AJ, I feel I am playing this well now.
tab
I appologise for how the posting above is laid out, the carriage returns are being nulled with the looks of it, how do I make a posting readable?
on the left side below Directory and Home is something called posting links. read it.
Carriage return is
Starter - there's nothing wrong with raising here. It's also alright to occasionally just call. One reason that just calling is not terrible is that raising out of the blinds tends to define your hand for you opponents.
Main Course - you were the maniac here. I think you got a little too frisky with just overcards and multiple opponents. In a real (low limit) game someone will show you a pair most of the time.
Desert - are we talking about 67s here?
You can get new lines (double spaced) by hitting enter twice, instead of once. If you want something single spaced and neater, you can use an html break tag "< br>" at the end of the line.
yes the desert , nay dessert was 6-7 5-6 , nightmare
You are going to throw away small suited connectors on the flop most of the time. You are looking for the occasional huge pot with them. Pre-flop wait until you are in late position and there are TONS of limpers in front of you. Then, generally, do not play on unless the flop hits you hard (two pair, straight draw, flush draw) and then carefully.
I just noticed that you are in the UK. I'm talking about limit poker here, just to be clear.
David
i HATE pocket pairs below TT. i usually just throw the little ones away without a second thought, but i nted to want to play 77-99. i need some solid help on these please.
i just played an online hand that will serve as a decent example. this was in a $5 tournament. all players still in. 15 to call. i had 88 6 off the button. one caller before me, i called, four players called behind including the sb and bb. so 6 of us see this flop:
2 T 3 rainbow
guy bets before me, i call (mistake?), am raised. guy before me calls, i call (this im pretty sure was a mistake).
turn come a Q i check and fold to his bet.
with two outs i always seem to lose with these hands. any advice?
Raise on the flop 100% of the time. With a flop that missed everyone's big cards and gave no one a decent draw, the first aggressor often takes the pot on the turn. I would think the first bettor's most likely hand is overcards. If someone plays back on the flop or turn, you can usually safely fold.
You might not love this raise, but if you don't raise you'll probably be raised by a hand you can beat, leaving you with the untenable choice of folding the likely best hand or spending 5 more bets on second-pair-with-no-draw. Failing to raise also dramatically increases the chances that you'll be outdrawn, so think of calling as the equivalent of devaluing your hand, as if you were turning it into sixes or fours.
The problem with raising on that flop is that a ten is such a popular card for a limper to have that I would think it's pretty likely the limper has a T or that someone else has a T.
You couldn't do much wrong by always folding pocket pairs in unraised pots when an overcard hits, because the pot is small enough that it can't be a huge mistake.
-Sean
I've got a slightly different take on the hand. I would fold 100% of the time. With 4 players behind you it is very likely that someone has a 10. The 10 is the most frequently appearing card in what most people consider playable hands.
I think that you'll have less trouble with the medium pairs if you play them as an either/or hand. Either you hit the flop (with a set, having an overpair, or a strong straight draw), or you fold the hand. This is especially true in a tournament. You do not have enough chips to be mucking around with an underpair on the flop.
You might consider entering the pot before the flop with a raise, but a raise on the flop with a rough flop like this with many players behind you would usually be an error.
Can't remember if it's Lou Krieger or Lee Jones (but I'm pretty sure it was one or the other) who said if the flop doesn't hit you and there's any appreciable action, fold and be done with it. This is especially true when you hold small to mid pocket pairs. You simply don't have anywhere to go with it. Get 'em next time.
My prefence is to defer to Ed in this matters so he may be right. But if so raising must be a close second to folding. T9 and JT typically don't like cold-calling here and if you get it head-up and follow up on the turn you're getting 2-1 for your action. I think you'd have to be pretty confident that the field doesn't consist of loose preflop callers and that the opener needs to be strong in order to justify folding.
As for the "fit-or-fold" advice: loose players that go too far with their hands would do better if they followed this advice and advanced to the "weak-tight" stage. But if they keep it up in short-handed pots against aggressive players they're going to get creamed.
I guess I should clarify my post a little. I'm not saying there wouldn't be situations where you would proceed to bet or raise with an underpair to the biggest card on the flop. But, I would usually do so when I felt that there was a strong possibility my opponents would fold, or that I had the best hand.
Here is the situation, I am wondering if I should have been more aggressive.
Im in late position, with a T-T, 5 people call, I call. Flop comes up 4,4,9 rainbow. I still have overhead pair. The BB bets 5, most see it, leaving the BB, another player and me. The turn comes up, another 10, I have full house. Somebody bets 10, and BB raises to 20, I reraise to 30, the first better drops, and the BB reraises to 40, I call. At this point, I am wondering if I should have kept going, seeing how he did bet on the flop, I was worried about the infamous 4 of a kind with 4's, he seemed very confident and couldn't put him on anything else. SO I called again on the river. Should I have been more aggressive, should I have ignored the four of a kind possiblity? He said after he would have kept going.
any comments would be appreciated.
Since there is only one hand that can beat you, raising on the river is a must. In fact, I would be willing to put in about 6 bets here. If a 4 should hit the river, then only raise once.
You also should have raised BTF with TT. When the board pairs, most players wait til the turn to raise. A raise on the flop would have been good, you want to charge the overcards to beat you.
First you should have raised preflop with your TT. You liely have the best hand here and you do not want the blinds to get a cheap shot at a freak two pair. On the flop when you have your overpair you should raise. If it's raised back to you just call. On the turn you should put at least 6 or 7 bets in before getting scared of monsters under the bed. If you're playing on Paradise maybe 5 bets. You should raise any bet on the river unless it's another 4.
Is it right to raise preflop, mid-position with a T-T, I know what the effect of the raise could be but I've heard from other sources that you wouldn't do this. Anyways, as it would have it, the guy only had another four, with trip fours. He told me after that he would have went all the way. That would have been good money, oh well, I still won. I couldn't rule out 4-fours so I was not prepared for it. Also I just started out and am building my bankroll, and I didn't want to be too risky. Well, thanks for the help.
Some of the reasons to raise with TT in midle postion:
1) You can buy the button
2) Eliminate the blinds
3) Get overcards to fold
4) Make everyone pay two bets to try and catch you.
He was in late position which is all the more reason to raise. Anyway, TT in the middle is a raising hand if no one raises in front of you. If there is a raise, a lot depends on who is raising. Against a rock you fold, against a lunatic 3-bet, against a solid or unknown player, tend to call. You are likely a small favorite to two overcards or a big dog versus JJ or better.
An argument could be made for raising before the flop with your Tens, but calling is a viable option as well. What calling does for you is allow you to get extra action on your full house later in the hand.
There are at least three reasons to put in an additional raise on the turn.
1) Four of a kind is just a plain unlikely occurance. 2) How many people would lead bet quads on the flop? 3) Because you didn't put in a raise before the flop, (a play that many people favor), your opponent will give you less credit for holding a full house, and will suspect that you are just "saying" that you don't think that he has a 4 with your first raise. This is because most people will believe that when they lead bet their trips they are doing something deceptive. Presumably, because many players will 'come alive' on the turn when they flop trips.
The player you describe is definitely more live than most opponents if he said that he would keep raising, and I get the feeling that he may have forced you to cease raising action before he backed off.
By the way, raising once on the river when a third 4 fell and your opponent led bet as suggested by another poster would be a mistake.
3/6 hold'em at Mohegan Sun. I recently sat down. I know several players, but not those involved in this hand. I'm in the BB with QTo. Several limpers to me and I check.
The flop is Txx offsuit. I bet my top pair, decent kicker and get two callers.
Turn is a Q. There are now two of a suit on board. I bet my top two pair. I am raised in one spot with everyone else folding, I re-raise and am called. It's heads-up.
River is a rag, but it's the same suit as the turn, so a flush is now possible. My opponent didn't seem to be on a flush draw, so I bet out. He called.
Comments? Results to follow.
David
He held pocket Q's for an overpair on the flop and top set on the turn. A couple of people expressed disbelief that I could have had the audacity to re-raise him with a mere two pair. :-0
It's not a bad beat story, though. I was beat from the beginning. The question is:
If you knew this player was quite passive and never ever raised pre-flop (and very rarely after), would this change how you played this hand?
David
I play this the same way, except for I check the River. I bet to get a better hand to fold or a weaker hand to call. I don't bet if there is a possible flush that is going to re-raise.
I see fish raising their 4 flushes all the time. When he raises the best hand I can put him on is QT ;) So when he doesn't cap it on the turn, I immediately put him on a flush draw.
I check the river.
David,
If I was heads-up with him the whole hand, it *might* change my play, but I am willing to be aggressive against a passive player and get beat sometimes, rather than always fear raising them because they play their great and good hands the same. That is bad strategy on their part, don't let it get in the way of your good, aggressive strategy.
I thought your raises were fine when I read the original post, because you did not state that someone in your game never semi-bluffs. In a lot of games, players raise on draws quite a bit and need to be reraised when they are drawing. Plus, he could just as easily had AA, KK, AQ, or other made hands you beat on the turn. Of course, it happened he didn't.
I even like your bet on the river, knowing he was not the type who would raise with only the draw or a pair/draw hand. When I read the post and did not know the type of player you were up against, I thought maybe you were facing AQ or even an overpair the board and were going to tell us you raked the pot. Even reading that this guy might have played AA the same way reaffirms that you played it right.
KJS
You are giving me too much credit. Everything I learned about this player I learned AFTER this hand. The way I played it was my generic play for this situation. And in that sense Poorboy might have a point about my river bet - I'll have to give that some thought.
It did turn out that I was probably the only player capable of semi-bluffing. But I wasn't going to do it much against these guys. This was definitely a "straightforward play takes the money" kind of a table.
David
I would not have played it any different from you.
Your opponent played his hand very poorly.
Without looking I'd say your opponent held QJ, KQ. I like the way you played it. No muss, nothing fancy.
I don't see how you can play it any differently. He would play AQ, AQs, AA, KK, KQs all the same way. There are 24 of those and only one way he can have QQ. Tough break.
that guy's a moron...u shoulda lost more money b/c he shoulda raised you you up the butt....heck , he shoulda raised preflop as well.
"Turn is a Q. There are now two of a suit on board. I bet my top two pair. I am raised in one spot with everyone else folding, I re-raise and am called. It's heads-up. "
your bet on the flop said u have top pair [unless there's a flush draw/straight draw and there wasn't, or unless ur an idiot, but ur not] so anyways, u say that u have top pair on the flop, so everyone calls. on the turn, you bet again, saying, i'm going to charge those backdoor draws, however, someone raises...they're saying that they have a queen, a pair better than ten.
so, okay then...u reraise [which any normal person would do, esp since he didn't raise pre flop] ur saying i can beat ur top pair...i have two pair...
unfortunately, that guy's a moron and doesn't reraise...maybe he's trying to be tricky so u lead on the river, who knows, but i'd cap if i were him...[so, that's one bet u save]
indeed, u bet out on the river, yet, he fails to raise u.
these are the times when u don't ask him 'why didn't u reraise me'
or something along the lines of reminding him he made a boo boo or tell him he had the nut hand b/c some ppl don't know if they have the nut hand or not...
as for those ppl giving u shit about playing agressively, well, they're morons too so ignore 'em...cuz any reasonable player would play the hand as u did when the monkie doesn't show any strentgh like that..
okay, i gotta get back to studying for finals, bye!
-jon.
as for those ppl giving u shit about playing agressively, well, they're morons too so ignore 'em.
Not to worry. I have no trouble whatsoever ignoring advice that I hear at the table. It's hard to remember, but I don't think I've ever heard one truly correct piece of advice given out that way. :-)
David
6/12. Lately I've decided to move up to 6/12 HE from 4/8 HE. I've only been playing poker a little over 1 year. And my stats are as follows (stats include collections and tokes):
4/8 single BB with $3 collection on button:
160.25 hours of play Mean = +1.70 SD = 106.17
But if I only look at my last month of play, it looks like this:
39 hours of play Mean = 22.18 SD = 74.62
6/12 single BB with $3.50 collection on button:
90.6 hours of play Mean = -20.20 SD = 115.48
And my last two session were both 8 hours. The first was -644 and the second was -385.
I think I'm an objective observer of my play and honestly I don't see where my play is "bad". In fact, on occasion I can see where I've made excellent decisions. One case where I hold pocket 9's in middle position. 6 players in for a single bet. Flop comes QT8 rainbow. It's one bet to me - I decide to peel one off which now I believe might have been a mistake because I didn't consider that if a nine comes, my hand is likely beat. The nine came and it was bet and raised to me. I folded. Someone else had caught the straight. Another situation was where I hold black 6's in early position. Again 6 players see the flop for one bet. The flop comes QT3 and it's checked around. The turn comes a 3. I check and the guy on my left bets. Everyone folds to me. I decided to call thinking this guy has nothing. The river comes a 5. I check intending to call a bet. He bets and I take down a tidy little pot when I call and show my 6's.
I think those were good decisions as I considered both the situations and the players I was up against. But then in regular play, it seems none of my draws are coming in. I get AKs twice in 3 hands - raise and get spanked! I flop flush draws and open-ended straight draws and they don't come in! Then I'm dealt K2s in early position and muck - I would have made the flush and pulled down a $300 pot. Then I'm dealt T5s on the button and muck it. The same thing happens.
To be honest, in an 8 hour session, I made some bad decisions, but I don't think in total I cost myself more than $50 in decisions that were clearly bad - you know - an overcall here or a call without correct pot odds to justify there.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Michael
Lately I've decided to move up to 6/12 HE from 4/8 HE. I've only been playing poker a little over 1 year. And my stats are as follows (stats include collections and tokes):
4/8 single BB with $3 collection on button:
160.25 hours of play Mean = +1.70 SD = 106.17
But if I only look at my last month of play, it looks like this:
39 hours of play Mean = 22.18 SD = 74.62
6/12 single BB with $3.50 collection on button:
90.6 hours of play Mean = -20.20 SD = 115.48
And my last two session were both 8 hours. The first was -644 and the second was -385.
I think I'm an objective observer of my play and honestly I don't see where my play is "bad". In fact, on occasion I can see where I've made excellent decisions. One case where I hold pocket 9's in middle position. 6 players in for a single bet. Flop comes QT8 rainbow. It's one bet to me - I decide to peel one off which now I believe might have been a mistake because I didn't consider that if a nine comes, my hand is likely beat. The nine came and it was bet and raised to me. I folded. Someone else had caught the straight. Another situation was where I hold black 6's in early position. Again 6 players see the flop for one bet. The flop comes QT3 and it's checked around. The turn comes a 3. I check and the guy on my left bets. Everyone folds to me. I decided to call thinking this guy has nothing. The river comes a 5. I check intending to call a bet. He bets and I take down a tidy little pot when I call and show my 6's.
I think those were good decisions as I considered both the situations and the players I was up against. But then in regular play, it seems none of my draws are coming in. I get AKs twice in 3 hands - raise and get spanked! I flop flush draws and open-ended straight draws and they don't come in! Then I'm dealt K2s in early position and muck - I would have made the flush and pulled down a $300 pot. Then I'm dealt T5s on the button and muck it. The same thing happens.
To be honest, in an 8 hour session, I made some bad decisions, but I don't think in total I cost myself more than $50 in decisions that were clearly bad - you know - an overcall here or a call without correct pot odds to justify there.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Michael
I'm a little fuzzy as to how to interpret your results, but I will comment on the two hands you played.
In the first case, with the 9's, your call on the flop is probably not a good idea. None of the cards that help your hand are very good for you. Then, when you hit your set, you are getting at least 4.5:1 from the pot, where you will probably win if you fill. I would call here.
In the second case, with your 6's, you make a shrewd read that your opponent is bluffing here. The problem with just calling his bet is that there are a lot of cards that will beat you. I would try to take the pot right there with a raise by giving him a chance to fold. It will be very difficult for him to bet the river behind you even if he does catch an overcard (to your 6's) because you have represented trips. Notice that if one of the cards that could complete a straight falls on the river, you can still safely check because you are representing that you are afraid of a straight. If he bets, you don't have to call.
Two bad sessions isn't really an indicator of much. You may be feeling a little additional pressure because you are playing for more money that you are accustomed. I would only be slightly concerned because of the size of the losses. These are large losses (although not unduely so) for a 6-12 game. You may want to tighten up a little until you become comfortable with the size of the game. In other words, in early position, you may not want to play hands as weak as pocket 6's unless the game is passive before the flop.
As alluded to in the other post, two sessions is not an accurate indicator of results. Consider a world-class player who sits down in the same game and receives the same cards (assuming he is able to play seriously at this level). He would probably save a bet here and there, perhaps saving $200-300 each session through perfect play. Perfect play, of course, is unattainable, and this world-class player probably could not save that much even with perfect play, but just for illustration, assume this is so.
Now, between the last two sessions, this expert is down "only" $500 compared to your $1000. And this is assuming perfect play! With so few hours logged, it is impossible to compute an accurate win rate. One reason for this is that you will only participate in a handful of hands that really have a significant impact on your bankroll. For an eight hour session, you may only see five or six hands that have this sort of impact (often fewer!). Now, imagine that you will win 50% of these five hands (gross exaggeration!). Your probability for losing ALL FIVE HANDS is 3.25%. So one of 33 times, you will may be a BIG LOSER. And that's using an unreasonable win rate!
Hi all...
Comments on the following hand:
5-10 HE. Full table. I'm in the SB with black qweens.
The table is fairly loose. 2 solid players.
4 limpers to the button who raises. I don't know this player, he has sat down not too long ago.
I opted to flat call since it was unlikely that all the limpers would fold to a reraise and I was out of position. (mistake?)
Flop came J 8 4 all hearts.
I went for a check raise hoping the bet would come from the button so I could get everyone to cold call two bets. I felt that if I bet out and got raised by the button, I could not know if he raised cause he beat me (AA-KK)or if he had a singleton heart or worse 2 hearts.
Everyone checked to the button, I raised, very loose LOL calls. all fold and button calls.
Turn is the 3 of clubs. I bet, LOL calls, button folds. I would have folded if he had raised. (right?)
River is the qween of hearts. Damn...
I check, LOL checks and flips 8-9 off with the 9 being of hearts. She takes the pot.
Any mistake ??
Thanks...
ThePrince
You can't fold to a raise by the button on the turn, as he may be making a play. Otherwise, there was nothing else you could do...
If I miss the flop, but no card bigger than Q, I'll play for 2 bets. If the flop is suited and 4 players remain, I'll toss it.
I think you should have re-raised pre-flop. Even in Low Limit, some of them will dump facing another 2 bets, and the prospects of facing a cap. You would have looked like a star had granny bailed out on her 98o. When you limp in with QQ, I think you played OK from then on, but IMO your big mistake was not trying to punish the limpers when you had the best hand.
Since the raiser is on the button and you are in the small blind with your queens, I would think the best thing to do would be to wait until the flop to show any strength. This disguises your hand and you can wait to see if a K or A falls before committing fully to the pot.
In this game, I made the assumption that no one will fold for a reraise after already donating their five dollars. If a K or A falls on the flop, probably give up against this large field; if you have an overpair, a checkraise on the flop would possibly eliminate a good portion of the field. Or you could try to wait until the turn and checkraise with a bigger bet, getting more players out. This last strategy, while more risky, would possibly result in a long-term gain (but with larger fluctuations), as a lot of players would stay in with little chance of winning.
This is almost the exact same thing that happened to me, look at the 12/11/00 response "super draw" fortunate for me the queens ended up making a full house
I hold ATo in the BB...5 limpers, and I check.
Flop: A J 3 rainbow
I bet out with top pair, one caller, then I'm raised by a player in middle position (MP). Everyone else folds, I call the raise, the other player calls the raise as well. Three players.
At this point, I had a feeling I was outkicked, but I couldn't bring myself to fold to that raise, despite the fact that MP was a relatively tight player.
Turn: J
I check, MP bets. Should I fold here? I called, and called again on the river after a rag hit.
Results to follow.
NotQuiteDead
MP turned over AK to take the pot. I had feared I was outkicked when he raised on the flop, and it turned out I was right. Then, when the Jack paired on the turn, I lost 3 outs, and it seems I was drawing completely dead.
I'm pretty sure I should have folded on the turn, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
NotQuiteDead
Holdem experience teaches you, among other things, which hands are trouble. A-10 is one of those. If you were confident of your tight read on the player, i think i would have laid it down.
middle player with ak was dumb not to raise preflop.
you shouldve have folded after he raised you on the flop since you had a read on him as tight.
oh well, no biggie really.
I'm UTG in a typical game and catch QQ. I've been playing a decent and tight game, am way ahead with raises being respected. I raise and get one caller. This player is one of the better players and has to have a pair to call my raise but its not AA-QQ or he would reraise. I discount AK-AJ. I figure he's got 88-JJ. He's aggressive enough but I'm afraid I will to loose him to overcards.
Flop comes Q73 rainbow. I check, he bets. I call. I've represented AK here. Should I have check raised ? I know to play a set fast, but I want to get paid and this guy is seems to respect my play. $22 pot.
Turn is 10, I check again, to my surprise he checks as well. Getting more respect than I want here ! Check raise plan foiled ! Should I have bet even if I loose him ?
Now the river is a J, rainbow. I know he's worried about AK but I can't let him check it down. He calls.
Results next post.
Would you have played this any different, hoping for some action or is a slow play alright in this situation knowing your 1 opponent won't be drawing ?
He had JJ !
Greetings to everyone.
Played my first session of Holdem last Friday, after reading, studying and practicing for about two months. Game was 1-2-4-8? (least, I think that was how they described it). Anyway, it was 1-2 blinds and spread bets of 1-4 and 4-8. I'm sure you all know what I'm trying to describe in a very awkward way.
Played for 6 1/2 hours without even a bathroom break. Bought in for $100 then $50, made it back at the end and ended up winning $28. Next night, played 4-8 game for 4 hours straight and lost $70 from a $100 buy-in. Last night (Sun) played a different 4-8 game for another 4 hours straight and lost $80 from a $100 buy-in.
I made some big time mistakes the first night, and played better the next two nights. But these were at local casinos and there were some real tight and good players. And I could not catch a hand. For instance, Sat. night I had 3 hands of pocket kings, bet agressively pre flop and after the flop, and lost every one of them. Last night, I had pocket aces, and lost that hand also.
Questions:
1. I am a blackjack player at $10 unit level, and am used to some big fluctuations at this level. A $500 loss in a one hour session is not unusual. My question is, were my losses typical? I know it depends greatly on the ability of the player, but what would be the higher loss amounts for a moderately good player in a 4-8 game?
2. I saw some really loose playing. One lady won two big pots holding 2,3 and 2,4 both unsuited. Last night, my end of the table had the tight players and we were all losing. The far end had the loose players and they were piling up the chips. I saw numerous hands such as 10,5 or J,2 win. Is there any situation when you would see the flop with these kind of hands? Is this kind of play typical? Or am I playing too conservative by playing by the book? The book in this case is Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em".
Thanks for your answers.
Papio
Is there any situation when you would see the flop with these kind of hands? Is this kind of play typical? Or am I playing too conservative by playing by the book?
No (except for a free play in the big blind). Yes. No.
Your losses would not be atypical for either a winning or a losing player.
Remember that it's very important in spread-limit to try to see the flop cheaply with mediocre drawing hands and to charge the maximum when you have very strong cards that don't want a multi-way pot. As I recall, Lee Jones has a decent discussion of this.
Other than that, straight-forward tight aggressive play should be a winner in this game.
David
Welcome to the game--
I think the game you're trying to describe is 1-4-8-8.
My first advise to you would be to scrap the pre-flop advice in the Jones book. You might be able to become a small winner in a fixed limit game using his pre-flop strategies, but you'll be sunk in no time in a spread limit game. I don't care if you're Johnny Chan, you'll never show a profit in HE if you only raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT AK and AQs, and take off flops for two bets cold with QTo. That type of play will send you right to the poorhouse.
If you really want to read the seminal HE text pick up Sklansky's "Hold 'Em Poker"; it is, IMO, the best book ever written on the game. If you want to tweak the starting hand requirements contained within I'd slightly de-value suited connectors, as IMExperience you need to be in later position and have more calllers in front of you to play these hands than what Sklansky recommends.
You're fluctuations are totally normal-- I wouldn't even think about that. I once lost 880$ in a spread limit 3-5 game, so I can assure you you haven't bottomed out.. :)
It sounds like you're playing fine, and the odds just didn't hang with you. If you keep playing tight agressive, I think you'll do great!
In a fairly loose-passive 4-8 game (averaging 5-6 players per flop), I raise UTG with two red jacks. After four players call behind me, the BB reraises. The BB is one of the better and more tricky players. Though I think there still is a good chance that I have the best hand, I just call and see the flop with 5 opponents and 18 small bets in the pot. Should I have reraised (capping the betting)?
The flop comes Ks-9c-7s and the BB checks. I also check, hoping for a free card but planning to call one small bet. Would you have bet? If so, how many raises would you have called?
Surprise, surprise, I got my free card: a red four. Now, the BB bets into me. I don't like calling here and ponder whether to raise or fold. What would you do?
I'll post the outcome later.
With that many callers after the flop I would check call on the turn about 30% of the time and fold about 70% of the time. The reason I would fold is there are 4 people to act behind you who may have a weak king. Also BB may have been going for a check raise.
Derrick
I think you misread the post. Check-calling the turn was not an option because the BB bet into me.
So on the turn I would fold 70% of the time and call 30% of the time. I still feel there are too many people left to act who may be waiting for a raise on expensive street to call this too often. You may have BB beat, but you still have half the table to deal with.
Derrick
Well presented hand, posing three interesting decisions. I'm short on time so I'll just comment on the first. I would favor capping the betting preflop for several reasons: 1) Maximizing the value of your hand. I agree that there is a good chance you have the best hand (and the loose cold-callers will surely call two more bets). 2) Deception. When you capp it, opponents will suspect AA, KK, QQ or AK(s) if you have a reasonably tight image. 3) Position/Initiative. By capping the pot, you seize the initiative and place yourself in a better position to control the post-flop action. The BB will be more likely to check to you, increasing your chance of a free card with a bad flop, or maximizing the pot with a favorable flop (by betting, being raised, and then reraising or smooth-calling to raise on the turn).
MJS
I have a bit more time now, so here's my thoughts on your flop and turn decisions. I agree with your plan to check and call one bet on the flop, though I would also consider check-raising if the first bet came from late position (forcing the intervening players to fold or cold-call two bets).
On the turn, I would fold due to the likelihood that you have 2, 1, or 0 outs. It sucks to be drawing dead!
MJS
Thanks for the feedback. I wish I had folded on the turn as both of you advised. Instead, I raised. One player cold-called behind me, and the BB reraised. I now folded, convinced that I had either one or zero outs. I felt sick when the jack of clubs fell on the river...until the BB bet out and got raised by his lone opponent who won the pot with 8T. The BB had 99.
3-6 game. The game is very loose and not terribly aggressive, but a couple players do raise now and then. I am probably the most aggressive player at the table.
I am dealt AhKs in the BB. UTG posts a live straddle. Four call the straddle. SB calls. It is unlikely that any amount of raising will make anyone fold, plus the straddler might reraise again anyway, so I just call. UTG calls as does everyone else.
Flop comes Kc 6c 7h. SB bets and I raise, thereby scaring several players INTO the pot. We see the turn 5 handed.
Turn comes the 3c. Not the card I really wanted to see. SB checks.
This situation arises often. You have a good hand like top pair, and you are in early position, and a flush or straight card comes on the turn. I believe the move here is to bet, which is what I did. Many would be afraid of the flush or straight, and so they would check. But here's the thing: are you just going to check-call? Check-fold? I don't think so. And check-calling is WIMPY. If you are going to call you might as well bet. If you get raised, you can probably safely fold. But why let anyone have a free card? SUICIDAL.
No, betting is not suicidal, NOT betting is suicidal. After all, you did raise the flop. It is quite likely that no one has a hand that is better than yours, and since you raised on the flop, it is unlikely that anyone is going to bet into you either. And they all have outs against you. Anyone with a four or five just picked up a gutshot straight draw. Anyone with a single club just picked up a flush draw. Anyone with a pair has outs against you. Even some magoo who played red pocket dueces this far STILL has two outs against you. The flush is not necessarily made every time a third of a suit hits the board, nor is the straight made either.
So I bet and two players called.
River was the 2s. I bet and they both called. One showed down pocket nines and the other has K5o (SB).
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
I agree with your turn bet. Can't always be looking for snipers behind every tree. If you get raised by a predictable player who wouldn't raise you without a good made flush, you can safely dump it. If you get raised by a trickier player who might have something like Kcx, then you will have to make a decision. Some of those will be wrong, but that's poker. What IS weak, IMO, is automatically checking any time a possible straight or flush hits the board.
I see it day in and day out with the LL crowd. Everyone gets their share of good hands, but it is truly astounding some times how much extra cash some of these players leave on the table because they do not bet/raise/checkraise appropriatley because they do not have the absolute nuts.
3 players coldcalled your flop raise. Even in low-limit this should mean something. In this situation, I would estimate that over 85% of the time one of the coldcallers caught the dreaded flush, particularly with such a lacklustre flop. You got the result you wanted on this hand, but I think the decision to bet here is anything but automatic.
Mark
I believe your response will be mostly in the minority here, but thanks for the reply.
You do make a good point regarding the fact that several people cold called my raise. However, this is 3-6, a game where that doesn't generally mean the same thing as it would in 30-60. If a very good player had called my raise, I might give him more credit for having a possible flush. However, I will still bet into him on the turn. If he calls again and no 4th flush card comes, perhaps I will check-call the river. In fact, check-calling the river might be a good play also if I have not improved by the river, depending on the opponents.
But in the end I will still bet the turn 95% of the time. It will be interesting to see some more opinions on this.
Dave in Cali
I think betting the river was a little risky but otherwise you played it perfectly, including pre-flop. The turn bet is absolutely a must, especially in this type of game.
natedogg
Betting the turn is the thing to do, fer sher. The river bet, not as sure, sounds right to me, too, simply because it's a clearer decision when you see what the action is like. It's LL, no-tricks poker. Bet it out.
I, too, would lean toward betting. However, how often do you see three people cold call 2 bets and have another bettor as well, without a single one of them having the flush draw? Very rare in my experience.
I am an aggressive player and would bet unless I knew someone had it, but it seems close enough to a 0 ev play that I'm not going to get up on a soapbox.
Eric
Sitting in behind my 'student' on Friday evening, waiting for a seat to open. This guy is a real rock, but IMO, he has become away too tight for the 3-6 calling station type of game he sits it literally every day. He will fold AKo to one raise. I keep telling him he should be looking for value oppotunities to mix it up with these opponents, and rely on his play technique and hand reading skills to stay out of serious trouble post-flop. His game has regressed to the point that when he does enter the action, he has become so predictable that even the most casually observant opponents run for cover. Result - wins small pots when he does get cards, and loses the same as the rest of us when the deck doesn't hit him.
Anyway, on this particular hand, my buddy is in BB with Tc-8c. Four early limpers, raise in middle position from a loose player who generally enters far too many hands, but who will raise with a mixture of true quality hands like premium pairs, and medium crap like KJ, too. One cold caller, SB folds, and my student mucks. The flop and subsequent play is irrelevant.
I told him later when he stepped away from the table for a break that IMO a call with T8s in a big multi-way pot for another half bet was MANDATORY. The chance for a limp re-raise from the early callers was very minimal. He could count on getting 13:1 on his extra $3, and this is a call I would make every time with this holding. Am I the one off-base here? If I get flamed, I will have a big apology to make, but feel free to state your opinions.
If I am *very* sure that no one will raise, I would put the extra bet in to see the flop with T8s.
I'm not sure I would do it 'every time', but the situation you mention seems to call for it.
However, doing this can lead to pretty big swings. You get a great pot if your hand hits, but it can be expensive if you flop your flush draw or open ender and the prefop raiser or another player decides he is going to make you pay to draw. It's even more spendy if everyone is calling every hand to river, the flush draw hits and some goofball turns over Q2s.
Good points, Dan, but you can't make an omelette without breaking the odd egg.
No question this would be a higher variance play. You will occasionally burn up some chips chasing or someone will show you the bigger flush, but my point to my buddy, is that he plays SUCH a low variance game, that he has to get into this type of situation once in a while to keep 'em guessing at least a little bit. You're right, you don't want to do much of anything in HE ALL the time, but he is just so risk averse for 3-6, it's sickening some times.
He just WILL not get involved unless it's leading the pack with Group 1 & 2 hands. Not necessarily a terrible point of view, but the point I've been trying to make to him is that there ARE +EV opportunities that crop up during a sit, and he should be more alert to them.
If there's one thing I would do every time at a HE table it's call with T8s when I'm getting 13:1. It's a much a no brainer as the game offers, when you consider you've got roughly a 14% chance of flopping either at least two pair or at least an eight outer. That, pure and simple, is easy money.
In many yrs around low limit poker I don't recall seeing many players this tight very successful. In the small towns that I play tight players are not very welcome and can cause a game to break. I get accused of being tight in my local game but I know I play way to many. A 10% rake is typical in 3-6, and I don't know what you can expect to win if you keep the pots very small. My advice to your friend would be if he wants to be selective with what he enters the pot with at least be aggressive, that means 3 betting with AK. Aggression does mask tightness.
I agree.
As I said, I would make the call in the situation you describe.
How could anybody dig themselves into a deep hole by calling with this had preflop? If you're not willing to call in the situation described, you shouldn't be willing to ever play any speculative hand, including Axs or suited connectors or small pairs. Then try finding someone to pay you off. As soon as you do, the rest of the table will happily set them straight. At which point I suppose you could angrily berate them about your low variance.
the 3-6 games i play usually involve super loose idiots and one dumbass maniac, hence, i play tight as a rock.
i'll go through hand after hand after every fricking hand waiting for a group one hand to call/raise/reraise with.
if flop hits me, i stay in [if ace or king hits my ak] if i got that high pocket pair, i'll pump that pot full of raises cuz i know those monkies don't have squat. they just don't.
okay, ocassionally some monkie will hit that river, but that's besides the point, and hey, that's poker.
at any rate, i've gotten so accustomed to playing group one hands that when the game does die down, or i enter a regular not to tight/loose game before i find my super loose game, i instictively only call with group one hands even when i have the pot odds to make a correct call from late position or the blind.
i dunno, it's just me cuz i'm so used to it, and maybe that's why he's so used to playing tight.
[though i wouldn't fold ak off to a raise, i'd reraise]
anyways, i've gotten so tight that a couple regulars [only the ppl that i talk to b/c hey, i'm a kid, it's kinda lonely in there not talking to anyone, more specifically the other filipino ppl cuz i make fun of them how they always try to bluff cuz it's a filipino thing to lie/bluff/etc] keep on criticizing me about my tightness. they tell me it's not the way to win. but heck, i know that i take their in the end cuz i do.
so, to ur friend, keep playing tight in those super loose games, but loosen up in tight games and play suited/one gappers/connected in five or more ppl pots.
a good site is www.fekali.com on playing w/ dumbshits, err, fish.
okay, later.
-jon
I think your "student" needs to take up a new hobby. Of course you are correct in calling for the extra $3. You were kidding about his/her folding AKo for one raise, right?
Your student needs to open up. Folding AK for a single raise is not going to cut it at any level.
The hand you described is worth a call in limit get caught if the flop is a tweener like second pair and a backdoor straight draw. But, he has to overcome this in order to win.
Somehow, the post on this topic got messed up. Let's try again.
1. You might want to remind your student that 72 is a 6-1 dog to AA. If he is getting 6-1 to play a hand, he needs to take it.
2. Needs to 3 bet AK if his opponents see him as tight. Folding is out of the question.
3. Play more hands in the last 2 seats. He does not have to raise with marginal hands, but he does need to play pairs and connectors in the back.
4. It looks like your student is a slave to starting hand charts. This could take some time to break away from. He has to see that hand charts are only a guide.
That's the strangest thing I've heard of-- a hold 'em player who has to be persuaded to play MORE hands. Hell, I still play too many, and I'm one of the tightest players I've ever seen. In the hand you describe calling would be, IMO, an absolute no brainer. I don't think I'd even hesitate. Even with four callers (and maybe three, it's hard to tell) I have to think I'd be in there.
Not only should he call from the BB with T8s, I would be tempted to LIMP with that in late postion. (as long as I was getting odds.)
Actually a higher EV and much higher variance play would be to re-raise. (People will think he's a maniac!)
Per HPFAP, UTG if you fear no raises from the fish, and expect zillion way action, limp with Axs, J9s and anything better.
Folding AKo in large multiway pots is probably not too bad, EXCEPT you say people respect his raises, so he should be reraising if he can get heads-up or 3-handed.
I actually win more with KQo and QJo in MULTIWAY pots because it is possible to flop an open-ender. AK just can't win without improving, and even then it is marginal. The same goes with poket pairs, even AA, KK, QQ, unless you make a set, they won't make you nearly the money they should if the pot is 47 handed.
The way you make your money is with the suited cards he's been folding.
With weak players in the game, it is an easy call. I didn't read the post to carefully but you said you had 13-1 pot odds? That's plenty. you are 22-1 to flop trips or two pair, not counting flush and straight draws. Also, the implied odds are huge.
I would like to change the question here. It is obvious to call. But what is the best flop here in your opinions-a flop with 8-8-x, 10-10-x, or 10-8-x? I am curious as I finished second in a satellite losing with 10-8 to one of these flops. I wont say which, although I will say it was a no-limit tournament. Curious to see what you all think.
Result - wins small pots when he does get cards, and loses the same as the rest of us when the deck doesn't hit him.
If he plays like you say, when the deck doesn't hit him, he is no doubt losing much more than the rest of us because it sounds as if he doesn't semi-bluff and make otherwise less than obvious calls and raises properly.
Your advice is correct. Stick with him.
= Raider
2-4 HOLD EM--I'M A TIGHT AGGRESSIVE PLAYER RAISE PREFLOP W/ QQ--4 SEE FLOP OF K-9-2 RAINBOW I BET (MIDDLE POS) NEXT 2 CALL AND A TOUGH OLD LADY RAISES--I RERAISE REPRESENTING AA OR KK (I THINK SHE'S GOT A PAIR OF K'S ) MIDDLE 2 FOLD-SHE CALLS-TURN IS A BLANK -I BET SHE CALLS--I CHECK RIVER--SO DOES SHE & SHOWS ME POCKET 9'S FOR THE SET--SHOULD I HAVE FOLDED RAISE ON FLOP?? I DIDN'T FIGURE HER FOR KK AS SHE WOULD HAVE RAISED PREFLOP (SHE WOULD) THANKS FOR THE GREAT IDEAS
You should not use all caps.
I'm not sure how much I've lost trying to run little old ladies off a hand. If you raise and they call, YOU better have the goods. If she raises after, aim for the muck unless youv'e got the mortal nuts. She's not going anywhere. The older the person the less likely they are bluffing. Save some money next time.
It is harder to read text that is all in caps. Most people won't even take the time to read it.
You are playing in the wrong game. There is no way you are going to "represent" AA or KK and win the pot without it. You represented KK to the little old lady who had a SET, and she believed you enough to back down and then you lost.
You say you didn't figure her for KK before the flop but what about K5o or KJ or any other king that still beats your hand? This is low limit hold'em man. she had you beat and you knew it and you tried to win the pot anyway. That is the worst play you can make in low limit.
Don't represent the nuts to a hand that you know is at least top pair in LL hold'em. Usually, you can't even represent top pair successfully to any other pair. You KNEW she had a K at least if not two pair. Bad move. Wait til you are a against a pro before you make a move like that.
natedogg
It might be "INCONCEIVABLE" that you are beat, but when you raised preflop, then bet the flop, then got raised, I would give the old lady credit for at least having a king and FOLD your two outer.
Dave in Cali
You probably should fold on the flop. If you make a loose call here, then definitely muck on the turn when you don't improve.
When you get raised on the flop by an LOL (Little Old Lady) after you raised pre-flop and then lead into 3 other players on the flop, you should fold. You are playing two outs at best since the LOL will almost always have at least a King and she will not release. With just a King, she will usually just check and call to the river and make you show her a better hand.
If you didn't flop a set with your queens. I would have gotten out of there right away. If you claim to be tight you would have mucked it. I would have guessed the Tough Old Bird to be holding a King with any sort of combo and if she's calling your bets, than you must know that she's got something better than your pocket queens.
If you had been watching closely and paying attention at the table before this hand came up, you would have known exactly what to do.
I don't want to stereotype or generalize here, but nearly all old ladies at low limit tables aren't all that aggressive. Sure some are calling stations and will call a lot, but many won't bet less than top pair on the flop. For an old lady to RAISE you, she must have AT LEAST a king with a big kicker.
You can tell if she is this type by watching her in other hands. Of course, if this is the first hand she's played in an hour, run - she has AA AK or KK for sure.
I once had both black aces in mid position. Old lady in BB calls my preflop raise as well as 2 others.
Flop comes K 8 2 rainbow. There is no draw on this board PERIOD.
She bets. I raise. late position calls both cold (AK). She 3 bets it! I MUCKED. Yep, thats right - mucked AA on the flop for one more small bet. Why? Because I *KNEW* she had a set and I was not about to draw for my 2 outter.
Sure enough she had a set of 8's.
I was 100% sure she had a set because I had been watching her play for 3 hours. She would not 3 bet top 2 pair because she would be afraid of a set being out there.
In the hand you describe, there is no hand that she could possibly have that you can beat.
Hercules
You know she is tough, you said that in your post. I think you did the right thing betting out after the flop but as soon as you got raised you know you're beat. The only reason I agree with the bet is if she just calls you probably bought yourself a free card on the turn, of course with her set that could get you in a lot more trouble but we don't know what she's holding. You went too far.
What is the proper name of the book everybody refers to as HEFAP new version or HPFAP.
I need the full name and trust the pros in the forum will recommend the best thank you.
Hold 'em Poker/For Advanced Players/21st century edition.
8-handed 3-6 game on Paradise, moderately loose. Utg limps, next guy limps, one fold, I call next to cutoff with KsQd, cutoff checks his late position blind, button calls, blinds call, 7 players see a flop of Th Tc Kd.
Checked to me, I bet, cutoff folds, button calls, sb calls, bb folds and the two early limpers call. (I don't know any of these guys, and in about half an hour this is the first big multiway pot I've seen). 12 small bets in the pot, 5-way now.
The turn is the 5s. It's checked to me again. For those of you that don't play these games, it is not uncommon for someone to wait with an open set until the river. Wondering what else they could have and sensing a trap, I check.
The button bets, sb calls, utg limper folds, second limper calls, I call. Down to 4 of us with $57 in the pot.
The river is the Qc, giving me top two with a board of TTK5Q, no flush possible. Small blind checks, early limper bets out. These 5th street "bet-outs" with a scary board are often if not typically nothing in these games, but AJ or J9 looks like a real possibility. I'm looking at 10.5-1 with the turn bettor and the small blind on my left. Would anybody fold here?
At this point you have to call but I think things might have gone easier for you if you just bet the turn when checked to. If you get raised you can probably fold and you might get some players to fold rather than pay a double bet to go for a gutshot.
Not a chance in hell do I fold the river for one bet. I hope you were kidding.
I think the choice here is between calling and raising. utg show you a QJo? I have to agree with Jim, I would bet the turn. Do you always call pre-flop in that situation, or do you often raise?
Thanks for all comments.
Spitball: I usually raise early limpers with KQ.
I have no idea why I screwed up this hand other than brain lock. Of course you should bet the turn here: several callers in a low limit game is thin evidence of trips.
On the river, I must have been trying to rationalize not betting the turn because I mucked, coinvinced I was looking at a straight. The bettor had 4c4s, and the button took the pot with Kh3h.
when I run bad in a low-limit game, often I can trace my troubles back to playing too passive, especially pre-flop. we play tight because we know this gives us a long-term advantage. when we don't press our advantage, by charging the fish to call our better hands, we give away one our most important edges. good luck, spitball
Chris,
This is a great problem, and I think you should post it to the Internet Poker forum too. Here is why:
In low limit games online, especially where many people are seeing the flop, you can be easily crushed by calling or raising the turn and river -- i.e. whether aggresive or not -- when you are in bad shape and should have folded, especially on the turn where the players 'tell you' what they have.
Throwing away your cards against *most* players, especially with scare cards -- when 5-6 people took the flop is essential. There are so many people drawing dead it isn't funny: You want to be one of the people who cause them to draw dead, not one of the deadies.
I am playing an online strategy which is pretty simple, but which has helped me a lot: It has a lot to do with simply not paying off the turn when so many have taken the flop and are still there; when I have 2nd pair or really weak kicker, or some other problem hand or when it feels wrong. These cases, where you might be 2nd best, but something that helps you also helps 1-2 others more, are common there. And bluffing is done only by truly horrible players against 3 others (I think your example shows this?) so why stay around to find that the bluffer didn't beat you but the other guy who stayed does and would never fold. I can think of 5-6 hands from one 2 hour session where I folded correctly (or didn't follow my own advice and lost). And 5-6 where people chased me with NO outs.
Against one other player, well, it is harder: Much harder. But if 5-6 took the flop, certain flops are death unless you are way ahead.
There is a GREAT post in the Medium Stakes by Jim Brier 20-40 Problem of Dec 5th -- it is a case of QJx on the flop where the hero has a KQ. It is not exactly like a small stakes online (only 2 players take the flop), but it does pose the same question: What to do on the turn? Many experts say you have to play on. Dave from Cali guessed exactly what hand the raiser on the turn had (QJ) and suggested bailing I believe. In the online low stakes equivalent: More people would have stayed, and with KQo and people hopping out of their seats to re-pop it, I would probably fold this baby since 3 other players probably have me hogtied: any A is a killer, any K probably is too(str8) and someone might already have a set; but someone DOES have 2 pair or AQ, so you are paying a lot to catch up....and big odds are you will get 2nd.
Mark
I have to disagree, Mark. In Chris's example, he has a strong hand on the turn. In low-limit games I find that when I have a hand (like top pair, good-kicker) on the turn, it is very important to bet/raise vs. all the junk they are playing against you. yes they all have draws, but you are still the FAVORITE most times. Otherwise, IMO, there doesn't seem to be any point to playing tight and hitting a hand if you are not going to bet it aggressively.
when you only have a mediocre hand and no good draw, sure, muck the turn vs. a crowd of rabble. spitball
Six see the flop for one bet. BB checks Kx Th for seven.
Flop: 3h 5h Qx.
If I am sure that at least 5 will stay for one and no more than one bet, do I call and see the turn?
Thanks,
At most you could say you have 5 outs. 1 out for the back door flush draw (that will be 10 high), 1 out for the back door straight draw, and 3 outs if you spike a king (and then you have a 10 kicker). With 5 complete outs you would need about 8 players in to see the turn card. Once the turn card comes you will have to recalculate your outs, since you will either have missed your backdoor outs or not. Most of your outs are suspect I wouldn't "take one off" here.
Derrick
Hi all, I'm a strong 5-10 hold'em player and I recently moved to Colorado. While I'm glad they have a few casinos, I am disappointed by the max. $5 bet. I've been up the hill and played Hold'em about ten times and have had moderate success and I was wondering if anyone knows the best times and places to play. I know I'm not going to get rich or make a living playing up there, but I am looking to get the most return for my time and effort. If anyone can offer any input I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance for your help.
I think Harvey's is the best place. There are a lot of "any two cards can win" players, especially on weekends. You quickly find out who the few decent players are (and they are not that great).
Also, they will pay you $1 an hour to play (get a Harvey's Wildcard). Not much, but an extra 20% of a big bet per hour never hurt anyone.
I've played their Wednesday night tournament once and the players seemed pretty weak. It started with 38 players and everyone at the final table made at least $100 ($30 buy in, 1 pre-break rebuy, 1 add-on at break allowed).
Paul Talbot
The games at the lodge can get pretty wild, as can the games at the station. Just as you might expect, the best games are on the weekends.
Last time I played in central city the games at Bullwhackers were generally bad, although don't tell G. Ed that--- he's a dealer there.. :) (and, might I add, a hell of a guy and a first rate poker theorist. Imagine that from a dealer. If you ever make it up to Bullwhackers during a weekday be sure to check him out).
The holiday action has always been excellent up there -- New Year's eve, x-mas weekend, etc. I've always preferred the Lodge because there seem to be more walk-in types due, I presume, to the fact that it's a hotel. I suppose the same goes for Harveys.
I just wanted to get your thoughts on what I saw happen last night at the Bicycle Club last night. I’m sitting at a fairly loose 3-6 hold em table. I’m 5 off the button (no small blind at BC). Third player to act raises and everyone sees the flop except me. Flop comes Qs, 8h, 2s. Check til the raiser bets. 5 people call. Turn comes Kd. Check til the raiser bets again. Then the problem occurs. The dealer burns and turns up a 10d. Immediately the raiser bets again. Only seat 1 calls. Then someone who is not in the hand says seat 3, the button did not call the turn. The dealer looks over and says he never saw the player’s hand. The floorman comes over and says to put the 10d back in the deck, reshuffle and river. The river card is a As. The raiser who was already upset at this point yells I bet anyway. At that point seat one who had shown that she was going to muck her hand when the 10d had shown up raises. Seat 3 who failed to call the turn throws away his hand. After about 5 minutes of arguing and yelling the raiser finally calls and turns up trip Aces. Seat one turns over Js6s and wins the pot. I was just thinking to myself that if I was the man with the set, I’d a been really pissed. But I wanted to know what insight anyone might have had.
That's the way it goes. Every so often, dealers make mistakes and that is the way they are handled.
Hell, it could have helped the guy with AA also, what if the ace had come up, then reshuffled and T hit the river?
This situation is relatively common in loose games. This is why it is important to pay attention and follow the action at all times.
As soon as the dealer rapped and started to burn, the raiser (who should have been watching the action closely), should have said "Wait! Action is not complete" or something.
It's a double edged sword, you want to be at a table of people playing loose and wild and not paying attention, but when you do, things like this are bound to happen.
The Dealer should be shot for not running the game correctly! Did seat 3 call the turn before the Td was put back into the deck and re-shuffled? If he mucked, I think the Td should stand. Otherwise - what the floorman requested be done is correct.
Any which-way the dealers actions are inexcusable!
granted, the dealer made a mistake, but they are human. you have to accept these situations as (hopefully) a small part of the game. kind o