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I have noticed lately that I am having trouble in these fairly common situations, and I need some thoughts/comments/opinions, please. I have only been able to play about once each month now, BTW.
Yesterday I am in a loose, passive 3-6 game. People play any pair to the river, regardless of the board. I am on the button. 5 callers to me and I look down and see 7-9 Spades. I do not think SB or BB will raise. SB calls, BB raps. 7 people in.
Flop 6 – 8 – 2. There is one Spade. I have a well-disguised open ended straight draw, and a gutshot flush.
SB checks, BB bets. Called to me. I raise, thinking that I may get a free card on the turn (the game is so passive, that in the 1.5 hours I have been at the table, no one has EVER bet into a raiser, except for me), and get some extra money into the pot if I hit. SB calls 2 cold, BB folds (?), all call. 6 people in, and there are 20 SB’s in the pot.
Turn is a non spade Queen. All check to me, as expected. I check. Should I have bet here? I did not think betting into 5 other opponents would be wise here, as it was highly unlikely that all would fold. If it were a Spade, should I bet?
River is a 3. Checked to Middle position player who bets, gets one caller. I fold. SB calls. MP has 8-4 or some such nonsense.
Could I have done anything differently here? These types of hands are sometimes very vexing to me.
Thank you in advance for your comments, Tim
You pose an interesting question, but I'll stick to the sceranio you described.
1. Your raise on the flop was good with the
intent of getting a free card.
2. You did get a free card, which is what you
intended. With 5 players, the chances are very
good 97 is not the best hand.
3. You fold on the river because you missed. Your
only other option would have been to bluff raise at the river. But since there was a bet, you would have been called.
I don't think there are any other options.
That being said, lets say you call instead of raise on the flop. Now you bet on the turn if checked to. What if you are raised? If you call, you now have to pay 2 bets on the turn to draw. The other variable is how many in the hand? With 1 or 2 opponents, a bet has a chance to work. With 3 or more, your better off taking the free card. In limit games, you will have to show the best hand to win, so in a passive game, bluffing is usually not a option.
4-8 game w/ half kill to 6-12. kill pot.
K2 of clubs in late position. 3 callers to me. I call, button and sb call and big blind raises (bbr). All call.
Flop is 962 with one club. bbr bets out, 3 folders. I put in a raise. Everyone folds, but the bbr calls.
Turn 8 no club. checked around.
River Q. checked around, and I took it down with 2s.
My thinking. Passive table, figured I had enough people in preflop to play. On the flop, figured the raiser to be a bit of an action guy who could have any 2 high cards. If I get reraised or bet into later, I fold to the possibility of overpair. So I raise as 1)bluffing the bluffer 2) free card play to my K, 2, and backdoor clubs 3)knock out the rest of the field to prevent any accidental catches by the rest of the field.
Turn I take my free card, and river he wont call unless I am beat.
This caused a lot of joking and talk at the table, since I was among the tightest players there, and this was out of character. After this hand I cut way down on my bluffing, and got paid off handsomely on my solid hands.
I have to admit, when bbr bet the flop I was ready to fold. But then when it got folded to me, and I saw an opportunity to get heads up with a preflop raiser on a rags flop, I jumped in without really thinking. My question is, was this impulsiveness, or should i make it a standard play?
What may have made your pre-flop play less wrong (more right?) is the comment about your image. You comment that you are one of the 'tightest players there' and seem to indicate that your opponents know this. If this is the case, an OCCASIONAL move like the one you made isn't bad. It will not win often but you can consider it an investment in keeping your opponets off balance.
How is the play different for these games. Sklansky covers this only briefly in his book.
Papio
I'm fairly new to the game so I don't know if this is correct but I've noticed that you should loosen your requirements for starting hands since the chance for a good hand out there is much reduced with the limited number of players. Also, bluff like crazy. You can't bluff out a full table but it's not as difficult to bluff a few players.
Well, Papio, I will have to disagree with the poster that says not to play in short-handed games. A 'rack' in a $4-$8 game isn't very much to lose. Bluffing more isn't exactly the right answer but the poster is correct if he's implying that, generally you play more aggressively.
The size of the blinds (and the speed that they come around) has very little to do with the desireability of a short handed game unless they are either very (large or small) when compared to the size of your bets. The expense to watch is the rake. Always ask for a reduction. I believe that Mason Malmuth wrote a couple of essays about short-handed play in Poker Essays.
I would say that short-handed poker is very much a game of feel in that many of the hands you would routinely play in a full game cease to be profitable when considering pot odds. For example, if you have king-high (no pair) and your opponent has Ace high (no-pair) you are still drawing, and you will rarely be getting correct pot-odds to continue just based on the chance that you will make a pair.
In a short handed game, I often focus on what I think my opponent doesn't hold, and what I can make him think that I do hold. It's also a great opportunity to be creative in your play.
I could have been best to check and fold on the end, but I hate doing that heads-up unless I have a total bust.
CV
Probably check and folding was the most -EV play of the three.
whatever.. it's your huge expected variance.. enjoy the ride..
get out of the kitchen.
if you play in a maniac game, you will have a large variance. if you play to WIN in a maniac game, you will have a still larger variance.
I will not play like a little girl despite a high variance. if you cannot take the swings, you are either playing too high for your bankroll or you do not have the stomach to play against maniacs.
if you do not follow the correct strategies against maniacs, you will:
1. not win in those games in the long run. 2. keep your variance low and feel good about your cleverness despite the fact that you are not playing a winning game. 3. simply remain in the 99.5+% of the population who are in the category "lifetime loser" in all forms of gambling that they engage in.
It seems I offended you with my post, thus your harsh response. however, you provided no supporting arguement for your statement. you simply stated that the variance would be high and sarcastically wished me to "enjoy the ride". I made no claims about winning strategies in maniac games being low variance. However, I did supply arguements to support my point. you can feel free to disagree all you want, that is what the forum is all about. but if you do not provide supporting arguements for your statements, they will not get any respect from me or many of the best posters on this forum. perhaps you would like to try again and refute my statements, but if you provide no supporting arguement then it is just trash talk and should be treated as such.
dave in cali
here's my argument against poor boy betting into the maniac on the turn with top pair, the specific hand that started this thread, a play both you and brier like:
you know the maniac is going to bet if you check on the turn and raise if you bet on the turn. he will not take a free card. maniacs are on a constant bluff when they dont have a hand. so his play will not vary, no matter what. (the maniac's style of play is not so bad against weak-tight players by the way, and will work for about 15 minutes at a time till people get wise to him) brier mentions that betting on the turn will keep him from gettting a free card. let me repear: he will NOT check behind you. ever. he's not shopping for a free card.
with just top pair, poor boy's hand is not strong enough for a check raise on the turn. and that will not get the maniac off his hand anyways. just because someone is a maniac does not mean they can not have a legitimately better hand sometimes. with two pair poor boy has the odds to bet into the maniac and reraise. with just top pair a check-call mode is wiser. it protects him from losing too much when the maniac does have a winning hand (or draws to one) but it allows him to stay in the hand with no fear of being raised. it is a case where being first to act is an advantage.
the catch to all of this: it has been my observation that low limit players at paradise are nowhere as bad as low limit players in live games. their starting hands are sometimes very bad but they play much smarter and much more aggresively after the flop. this makes it hard to put them on a hand. even when you think you have them pegged as maniacs who will raise with anything, you will be consistently surprised when they show you a better hand. 2-4 at paradise is a very stop and go game; you will find yourself check-calling or limp-reraising depending on the board, the outs, the players, table mood, players on tilt, pot odds, etc, etc. it varies greatly from hand to hand. but people at paradise, even maniacs, rarely raise on the turn with nothing. they are, at the very least, on a semibluff with a lot of outs. the reason even the low limit players at paradise are decent is because if they werent they would tear through their bankroll so so quickly that they would not be able to play anymore. so many people learn (or already know) the basics that many at live low limits lack making it a much tougher game than one would initially think. so reading something like lee jones and then trying to apply it to 2-4 paradise just doesnt work so well.
i see what youre saying about making maniacs pay dave, and i do know how to do that (a recent stint at the 5-10 paradise showed me the virtues of reraising maniacs), but in the case of poor boys post it was only after the hand in question that he got a clear read on the player as a true lunatic maniac. as for controlling variance, im assuming most players playing low limits at paradise have a truly limited bankroll like me so blowing extra big bets on top pair is scary stuff. if you have a stronger bankroll and are as aggressive as you seem than something like 10-20 would be much more worth your while.
good job dsf. Although I do not necessarily agree with everything you have said here, you have provided arguements supporting your position, therefore this post has my respect.
You made the point that there is a difference between a complete lunatic maniac and a player who is just overly aggressive but has some idea of how to play. Good of you to point this out. They should be played differently. Against the total maniac, make them pay and don't be too concerned about variance. If you are in a maniac game, you are going to have a high variance and there's nothing you can do about it. Against the better player who is just overly aggressive, often times you have to simply call them down when you have a decent hand like top pair, good kicker.
By the way, good thread to all...
dave in cali
Everyone else has made good points on your play of the hand. I disagree with your pre-flop call. In a live game I'll make this call most the time. Or in a game where I know the players. But when I'm new to a game I want to sit back and see how people play. I know this is more difficult online with players jumping in and out, but try to avoid marginal plays until you have a read on your opposition. It will make those tough plays done the line easier.
Anything strange when I sit down I go conservative until I get a read on players.
I've just finished a 26 hour session at my local casino, and truthfully I'm more irritated than tired. For most of this time I was grinding it out at the 3-6 table. Now I don't have a lot of experience yet, but I think I'm doing well gaining knowledge through books, fellow poker players, and actual game play at the casino. My problem is (and I hope I'm not the only one) that I think a lot of these people at the poker table have no respect for someone's raise (or the cards). Let me clarify...... I'm a tight/aggressive player and usually play premium hands. I see way to many people at the table playing every single hand. I know what you may be thinking....that's a greeat oppurtunity for me to make some money....and your're probably right. But on 3 different occassions I had AA,KK,AA, raised pre-flop, turn, and the river only to be beat by someone holding 2-6 UNSUITED (they picked up a 2 on the flop and six at the river!!!!) I know in the long run they will lose, but this is so irritating!!! I don't show it at the table, because I refuse to show anyone my true feelings, so they can use it against me later.... I'm thinking of moving to 5-10 tables to try to get away from this, but am I dumb to think anything is going to change?? Sorry for bitchin so much, but I'm hoping I can get some kind of positive feedback. Hold'em is a true passion for me and I will continue to work on bettering my play, so any guidance will be greatly appreciated.
The difference between 3-6 and 5-10 is that it will cost you $10 when your Aces get beat by 6-2 on the river.
Seriously, just because you lose a pot doesn't mean that you've made a losing wager. Even a roulette wheel pays the players here and there.
Here's a hand where I lost money. Full table at Paradise Poker. Could I have played it better or lost less? Should I not have been there?
1) I'm in the BB (Seat 7) with pocket TsTd. (8) fold, (9) call, (10)(1)(2) fold, (3) call, (4) Raise, (5) fold, (6) fold, (Me) call, (9) call, (3) call.
Flop is [ 3s 4c 7c ]. It's checked around (I should have bet?).
The turn comes [ 3s 4c 7c ] [ 6d ] (7) Bet (9) Call (3) Fold (4) Fold
The river comes [ 3s 4c 7c 6d ] [ 3c ] (7) check (9) bet (7) call
I lose 3 big bets to (9). He has Ac 6c
All comments welcome.
You should definitely lead at this flop having a decent over pair. It would be horrible for this flop to get checked around and then have an Ace, a King, a Queen, or a Jack turn up. On the turn you now find a bet when a Five gives one of your 3 opponents a straight plus you could be up against two pair. So you bet the turn, which is okay, and get called. At the river a Club arrives, and you check and call with your over pair. He made the flush and there is nothing to be done. You should have lost 3.5 big bets on this hand instead of only 3 (we are both counting your big blind).
I agree with Jim you should have bet the flop, the turn , and check called the river.
Ac6c would have called you anyway and you "saved" one small bet on the flop, but I can see little reason for not betting the flop with an overpair.
BTW: You could have saved one small bet: bet flop, bet turn, check and fold on river (= 3 small bets) as opposed to: bet turn, check and call river (= 4 small bets)
I'll do a "Rick N" and respond before reading the others. Flames from JB? We'll see.
You didn't tell us anything about the level or any tendencies you had seen from the other players. That being said, it seems to me that (4)'s preflop raise froze you up terribly. I think you should reraise preflop and then, with no overcards, bet the flop. It's hard to tell if the reraise would save the hand for you by forcing out (9) holding Ac6c - he might even be one of those low-limit players who think that this is a great hand! - but I think the forum would agree that his odds and implied odds are just not there to call 2 more bets with this hand.
A preflop reraise would also make your Turn play easier, if it made it that much more difficult for anyone holding a hand including a 5 to stay in. You didn't say what your intentions were if raised, but if you planned to fold if raised, I think your plan was OK.
The pot is big enough, I agree with your call on the river.
Dick
I invite all of the players who post, or simply read here to join me in a New Year's Resolution:
"I will not whine anymore!" If someone plays bad and wins against me, that's o.k. That's what I want them to do! If they played correctly, then I made a mistake and I will learn from it!
"I will not blame dealers or others for my losses." The dealer has nothing to do with it...ever! They insure that the game I'm in is being run fair and honest. The bad players are what feed my bankroll. I want them in my game. I can not lose if I play well. Today maybe, but never in the long run.
"I will not ask for deck changes or new setups". This only slows down the games and cuts into my profit. All decks have the same 52 cards in them... nothing changes!
"I will tip all competent dealers for every hand I win". For most, this is their sole source of income. I win consistantly thanks in part to their hard work. They deserve my praise as well. If they are incompetant, I will tell the management, not berate them in front of others!
"I will not allow abusive players to ruin my game". If a player abuses a dealer, I will speak up. If a player abuses another player, I will try to pull that player aside and make him realize that a bad player is good for the game, don't send them off by abusing them. I will make it a point to make this game better for all.
"I will tell no more bad beat stories". I will greet all my fellow players with questions about their lives. After all, life is more important than poker. (But poker is a close 2nd) We've all seen it ALL before... no need to beat a dead horse!
"I will not talk about the play of a hand with anyone at the table". Why should I help educate my opponents?
"I will become that ONE player we all enjoy playing with". We all know that person. He/she is always pleasant. Fun to be around. Never has a bad thing to say about anybody.
Please join me in making this a part of your game. For that matter... make it a part of your everyday life! Happy New Year to all and Keep Playing Hard!
BRAVO!!
Does anybody have a list of POSITIVE things to do at the table which help everybody have fun and get their mind off the game?
I was thinking about learning oragami.
Go to the table with a dozen sheets of paper and make everybody a different oragami animal they can set in front of them.
You can even try to fit the persons character. Make a little oragami turtle for the really slow player in seat 6. A boat (and paddle) for the guy getting rivered all day in seat 1. A dinosaur for the rock in seat 3.
I'm not sure how many variety of fish you can make with oragami but you'll have to learn a lot of them.
Now that's funny!
Jim said "In low limit games, especially $3-$6, you will find that you will have more players in the pot on virtually every street from what it would be in a higher limit game so it will be harder to win a pot. However, when you do win, your wins will be large, sometimes 100 small bets or more."
What fantasy game is this and where is it? Surely 100 small bets in a pot is much rarer than "sometimes". This must be a typo.
Eric
(n/t)
So I am, predictably enough, back at the table. And while the 'Comeback Session' wasn't the stuff dreams are made of, I made a small profit in a cash game and then got to heads-up in a 6-man tourney with $200 to the winner, where things went back and forward till I finally went out with pocket 4s as the winner catched a pair of kings on the river.
Anyway, there was an interesting situation in the cash game I thought I'd share with you:
I'm holding pocket kings in late position. UTG (tight-aggressive) and next to UTG (tight-passive, having problems folding a decent hands vs a raise) have both limped. I raise, BB (loose-aggressive) call, UTG re-raise and next to UTG call. Limp-reraise??? I dare not do anything but call, which BB does as well.
Flop JJx rainbow. BB check, UTG bet, other limper fold, NOW I raise. BB cold call, UTG too. Turn card is 3 of Spades, now two spades on the board. BB check, UTG check, I bet. BB raise, UTG fold, I call.
The river is another Spade. BB bets out, I call. He shows me J-7 in spades.
There are three things which is causing me head-ache here:
1. Even though the loose BB would probably even call a cap by me, there's no doubt that unless UTG held pocket aces, I should've capped it even though BB would still call and got lucky with the flop this time. Making it more expensive for him to play these hands will pay ME of in the long run. The question here is how likely the limp-reraiser is to be playing the aces. Should I raise here with the probability of limp-reraiser not holding the pre-flop 'nut' added with the knowledge that yet, there are still two players DEFINITELY playing worse hands than me, thus giving both me and limp-reraiser good odds.
2. Should I have checked and thus making the river card free for everybody after getting one cold caller and a call from the first bettor with two jacks on the board and now a second spade? If no-one held the jack, I'd give someone a free shot at catching the flush.
3. Is folding pocket kings in a quite big pot even a mere possibility with the board J-J-x-x with no flush possibilities yet? I think this player could be semi-bluffing on a flush draw...
and last, is folding at the river when that last spade indeed falls a good move or a stupid move?
Comments?
Quitter
Pre-flop I would have capped the betting with pocket Kings despite the limp re-raiser. While AA is a distinct possibility so is AK or even KK. There is just too much uncertainity here and with these other players involved I think you should make sure the betting gets capped.
On the flop, it would be interesting if the limp re-raiser would have led at you if you had capped pre-flop. I think your flop raise is okay here but the cold-call by the big blind frequently means trips in this situation given that board. On the turn, I would have checked it down here since a check-raise on the expensive street is quite likely and you only have two outs. The big blind almost certainly has trip Jacks or better from this sequence since he would not call two bets cold on the flop with just a backdoor flush draw. I would plan on calling a river bet.
I'm UTG (Seat3) with pocket J's in this 7-handed game at paradise poker. I open raise. The betting is as follows.
(3) OpenRaise, (4) Call, (5) Call, (6) Fold, (7) Call, (1)Fold, (2) Call
*** FLOP *** : [ 5h Qh Qs ]
(2) Check, (3) Bet, (4) Call, (5) Raise, (6) Fold, (7) Fold, (2) Fold, (3) Re-Raise, (4) Call, (5) Call
I bet and re-raised. My thinking is that I need to follow through with my raise BTF. There's 4 BigBets in the pot. Since 2 Q's flopped it is unlikely that any of my opponents have a queen and if one does, they might be scared I have AQ or KQ. Also, there's a 2-flush on board and the last thing I want is to give out a free card. Once (5) raises, it's pump or dump. Both seat 4 and 5 are tricky - they know what they're doing by my best account (probably aint worth much). So I either believe that he has a Q and fold or represent KQ or better in my hand and also show that I won't be run over.
*** TURN *** : [ 5h Qh Qs ] [ 8d ]
(3) Bet, (4) Call, (5) Call (all-in for 1/2 BigBet)
Now I think someone has a Q and I'm dead to a J. Is this reasonable thinking or am I surcumbing to some kind of emotion of dispair?
*** RIVER *** : [ 5h Qh Qs 8d ] [ 7c ]
(3) Check, (4) Check, (5) already all-in.
I show my J's (4) shows T's (5) shows 7's and takes 10.75 BigBets down on the river.
I lose 2.5 BigBets as I take 1 BigBet down for beating T's.
Is this routine? Did I overplay it? All comments welcome.
Thanks,
-Michael
if your reasoning for re-raising 5 had included that he was short-stacked and you wanted to put pressure on the others, then good. but you didn't explain that and I still wonder if that was part of your thinking - I suspect it was a big part of why 4 called. your fears on the turn are un-founded. if you were facing a Q, 4 would have let you know with a turn raise. I would bet the river heads-up with 4. spitball
...for paying attention at the table!
First session of the New Year. The noon TOM 3-6 game. I even get to go heads-up with my student, one of the regulars in this game. Four hands into the new year, I get AA cracked by somebody playing 4-2 UTG. But that's not the story.
My buddy is off and running in this game, up over $100 an hour into the sit. Now his normal 'strategy' when this happens is to start nursing his stack and protecting a win, but he continues to play aggressively, a little to my surprise. I had to berate him again last week for twice making terrible folds out of the BB to a raise (he would've won both pots), and maybe it's new leaf time.
Anyway, on this hand, I've got Q-To in middle position, and there are two limpers in front of me. I'm getting ready to call, but I glance to my immediate left at my student, who has grabbed several chips off his stack and is leaning forward into his seat. If he's not going to pop this, I need to work much harder on reading tells. I quietly muck, and sure enough, he raises, which invariably indicates a quality hand. I decided that I did not want to face a raise with a marginal hand like Q-T.
Sure as God made little green apples, the flop comes down K-J-x, 9 on the turn, and my str8 would have won a very nice pot. (Hero had a set of Jack's) Doh!!
He cashes out after 4 hours up $250, his biggest win in months. Later I told him about my "read" on his tell, and the results, and we had a good laugh. I'm not really whining; I believe I made the right play given the circumstances. I did OK as well, up $175 to start the year off.
And no flames about me informing my friend about his tell. We play in the same game about once every two months, so I don't view this as a big drain on my earnings. Just one of those "operation was a success..." type of situations.
Happy New Year to everyone.
I'm the SB with AA in this 3-handed game at Paradise Poker. There's plenty of raising BTF so my open-raise shouldn't raise an eyebrow. Here goes:
(button) Fold, (SB) Raise, (BB) Call.
*** FLOP *** : [ Qh 7c Td ]
(SB) Bet, (BB) Raise, (SB) Call
*** TURN *** : [ Qh 7c Td ] [ 7d ]
(SB) Bet, (BB) Call
*** RIVER *** : [ Qh 7c Td 7d ] [ Kd ]
(SB) Bet (all-in), (BB) Call
I lose to AJ.
All comments welcome.
-Michael
I don't see how you could have played it much differently. I probably would have re-raised the flop, but who knows whether the guy would have folded? Probably not since he called on the turn.
You just got unlucky.
David
Perhaps if you had made it 3 bets on flop your opponent would have released, but I strongly doubt it.
Actually, if you KNEW what cards your opponent held, you would be rooting for him to call. There are eight big bets in the pot and only four out of the remaining 44 cards would win the pot for him. Therefore, it is 10:1 against him winning the pot, and since you are all in, the most he could hope for including implied odds is 9:1. Additionally, if he happens to catch an Ace or Jack he will most likely call on the end, losing even more money.
Why didn't you 3-bet the flop? If it was because you were shortstacked, don't play when you're that severely underbankrolled. If it's a matter of not being able to deposit money, wait until you have more money and either don't play, play Omaha/8, or play a $10 tournament. All are preferable to playing shortstacked in Hold'em.
-Sean
Playing 3-6 on Paradise the other night. I am in late position, middle position open raises. I have Ah7s.
Is a call ridiculously stupid? After the events of the hand played out, the raiser ridiculed me for calling (he had AA).
Ax offsuit - Group 9 hand. An easy fold. I can see why you got ridiculed. I would not have even called the forced bet, much less a raise.
You should check out Sklansky/Malmuth's book on hold'em.
The only time I would see the flop with Ax off, would be if I were in the BB, and there was no raise.
If I held the hand on the button and everyone else folded, then I would consider raising to steal the blinds.
Otherwise, pitch it and wait for a better hand.
This was indeed a very bad call.
I highly recommend you read Sklansky's "Hold Em Poker" or Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" or Krieger's "Hold Em Excellence" before you play again.
If the raiser ridiculed you, you must have beat him. I suspect you flopped an ace and hooked a 7 on the river, which will drive people pretty nuts.
He made a huge mistake by pointing out your error - even bigger than the mistake you made by calling.
Hi, when a middle player raises, what does he have??? A better hand than your's, so fold. In middle he had to ahve at least AK AQ or big pr to raise. becasue he did not know how many more player would come in and if he might be rerasied. Have a nice year Ron
Well I did beat him (flop came 6-8-9, turn 10), you are right. I suppose its only natural for him to go a little nuts after that. It didn't really help when I told him "Hey I may have made one mistake calling your raise, but you made a bunch of other mistakes after that calling by bets and raises".
I was not sure how terrible a call this was. Apparently quite terrible! Thanks all.
David
I play live casino games (mainly 3-6) and there is a "bad beat" jackpot offered. Many players routinely play Ax, even for a raise, and I love it! Yes, occaisionally they hit a super flop with the hand, but more likely they are tied to a hand that will be dominated by an Ace with a higher kicker.
Consider, for instance, your A7. At a ten-player table, there are 18 other cards out, and at least one of those is bound to be an Ace. If an Ace flops, you will probably get significant action only from another player with an Ace, someone who has made two pair or better, or a player going for a straight or flush draw. Obviously, the two pair will beat your hand (assuming you didn't also make two pair, which doesn't happen very often. If the draws hit their hands (2:1 against), you will lose. What's more, against a player holding Ace-Anything, you will lose half the time, as his kicker will be larger than yours half the time.
Looking at each individual opponents hand, it may seem that you would be a favorite to win money on this hand. However, most of the time, especially in small stakes poker, you will be playing against four or five opponents. And when you add an opponent, your winning chances with this type of hand are EXPONENTIALLY decreased.
Of course, you may note that you called on A7 and the flop came, for example, 772. You may then assume that it is a good hand to call with. Does that make 72 an even better hand?
(n/t)
I believe I made the right decision on the hand below but please comment with any additional thoughts.
I’m in early position with ThTd. UTG limps, I limp ( Should I raise here?) a middle position player (MPP) makes it two bets. Six players see the flop including the button and the BB.
Flop is As Ks9s
It gets checked to the MMP who bets and the button makes it two bets. I fold. Three or four players see the turn, I can’t recall for sure.
Turn is a 9c
River 10c
I think I probably would have called one bet after the flop but I could not justify two bets with three spades and AK up. Would it be good poker to call even one bet here after the flop?
MMP showed QQ and the button had the flush.
I think you made the right move. You're out of position and staring a double sized bet with two over cards and 3 spades + there was a raise BTF and a call. Someone is likely to have AA, KK, AK or an overpair to your TT. MMP could have made it 3 bets after you called the bet from the button. Then on the River you have to call even more bets when you could be completely dominated a better full house (AA or KK). In this game with raising BTF, I don't think it would be good poker to even call 1 bet after the flop. These guys could be playing stop and go with this hand. Your chances of winning even when you make a hand are too small. Good lay-down IMO
-Michael
Pre-flop I think you should raise the UTG limper with pocket Tens. You want to drive out the remaining players and not give the blinds free plays.
On the flop, a fold here is automatic. It would be horrible poker for you to try and take a card off here. You are faced with two big over cards plus the flop is all of one suit and you don't have a card in that suit. At best you have two outs which is a 23:1 shot and the Ts may give someone a Spade flush so you really have only one clean out.
Pre-flop I think you should raise the UTG limper with pocket Tens. You want to drive out the remaining players and not give the blinds free plays.
If UTG would only limp with big cards and you are in a passive game where "calling begets calling" I think an argument could be made for limping with TT.
If you raise and get it heads up, it's tricky to play if you get an overcard on the flop. And it's more likely that you'll end up with 3 or 4 way action, which , it seems to me, is not what you want with TT.
If you call and manage to get 5 or 6 way action, you have odds to flop a set and it gets very easy to play post-flop.
Or is this just a bad idea? It's sort of derived from the idea in HFAP that you should limp UTG with JJ, rather than raise, under certain game conditions.
David
In HPFAP-New Edition I believe they are discussing situations where you have several players already limping in so your raise will still leave you with 3 or 4 opponents. However, in this situation a raise under the gun gives you your best chance of limiting the field. You would be happy if just the blinds call since you have position as well as a good hand.
The passage I was thinking of (P. 25) is:
If no one has opened and you are in an early position, it is usually best to raise with JJ in a tight game and to just call with it in a loose game. With two jacks you would prefer either to have no more than one or two opponents in the hope that your hand holds up without improvement, or to have as many opponents as possible when the majority of your profits come from flopping three-of-a-kind. The worst scenario is when exactly three or four opponents see the flop with you. This most likely would occur if you called in a tight game or raised in a loose game.
My reasoning was that this concept can be stretched to TT in the case of an UTG caller in front of you because he probably has exactly two overcards to your pair, making your edge small, and the fact that two callers in front can often make for big multi-way action.
If I thought that everyone but the BB would be likely to fold to a raise, or if I thought that UTG would limp with total garbage, then I'd raise for sure. But is my reasoning way off?
David
You appear to be correct based on what is stated in HPFAP. I find from a practical standpoint that it is hard in most games I play in to anticipate how many players will take a flop. I know that when I raise in early position this tends to thin the field quite a bit but this may be an artificat of the Las Vegas games which tend to be on the tight side compared to other parts of the country.
i rasie utg w/tens.i want ace little out and all like hands.you got a flop yo cant go with.unless you lead bet,for a free turn card.which makes your draw, only to get beat.you can play right all night and still loose.you'll have those days. the nuts to you,mav
Forget the river card. Do you like your fold?
-Sean
Are these interesting to anyone? Thanks to those who are responding. Your responses are helping me a lot.
I'm the BB with 6d5d in this 8-handed game at Paradise Poker. The betting and cards are as follows:
(UTG) Fold, (3) Call, (5) Fold, (6) Fold, (Button) Fold, (SB) Call, (BB) Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Jh 7d 5s ]
(SB) Check, (BB) Check, (3) Check
*** TURN *** : [ Jh 7d 5s ] [ 2d ]
(SB) Check, (BB) Bet, (3) Call, (SB) Fold
I bet thinking that since the flop was checked around, my 5's are a good candidate for being best and I've now got a flush draw. There's only two opponents and the 2d shouldn't have helped anyone. Is this reasonable? Should I surmize that at least one of my two opponents is holding a 7 or a 5 with a better kicker?
*** RIVER *** : [ Jh 7d 5s 2d ] [ 3d ]
(BB) Bet, (3) Raise, (BB) Call
Now my flush comes in but I'm raised. Should I chuck it and wait for better opportunities? I think chucking it now might be asking to get run over later. So I call and lose to a better flush.
He had Ad9d.
All comments appreciated.
-Michael
first off what level is it? 2-4 plays differently than 5-10..
i cant really fault your play on this hand. i think i wouldve bet the turn as you did although i think it is probably a marginally advantageous play at best.
on the river you could go for a checkraise but there's no reason to think he'll bet so betting seems wise. but what is he going to call you with?? he checked the flop but (only) called on the turn. you cant put him on a straight draw really, nor two pair. you could put him on a pair of 7s, but will he call a bet with a flush board with just that? SO it's a very tricky situation where he will only call (he'll always raise actually) with a better hand. so the best move is to check-call the river. although i think i wouldve, in the heat of the moment, have done exactly what you did.
Against two players, one of whom has already checked, I would have bet the flop! Certainly, the turn and river both warrant bets, and when he raises you on the river you make a 'crying' call unless you know your opponent very well and you know he's got your flush beat.
I haven't read the other posts so I hope this is the general opinion.
I think you should have bet the flop. With only 2 opponents, and until shown otherwise, second or third pair is often the best hand. With the SB checking to you I would bet and hope to win it right here. If you get raised or called re-evaluate.
Not betting on the turn would be a sin.
You have to call a river raise. Some punk could be messing with you. Just call. Usually you'll have the best hand.
I think had you bet the flop, the Ad8d would have folded.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (The Prince)
Well, I sometimes like to bet this hand out on the flop; when stuck checking a big blind with small cards, I generally bet out and force the people who chose to stay in this hand voluntarily to consider that yes, I might have low cards in the big blind. In this case, I especially like it because I look at the hand here and think there is a good chance that I have the only pair! Can you win the pot here? Its unlikely that anyone has better than a 3 flush or 3 straight, and unlikely anyone has a pair. Id suggest its a difficult call here (and with afterknowledge, I think the Ad 9d hand would be making a very dubious call here with one overcard, no straight chances, and runner runner diamonds as his only draws). Of course, you have to worry that he might have a jack, but even if thats the case, you still have a few outs (runner diamonds, runner straight, or a 5 or a 6).
This leads to the problem with your turn bet; that you are unlikely to convince anyone to drop because the 2d is pretty unlikely to have helped you much either! So, if I am playing against you here, a 2d drops, and suddenly you fire out a bet? I just consider it an attempt to buy the pot and call anyways with whatever I have. Your check on the flop convinced them you didn't hit anything there, but you still may be able to buy the pot if the one guy doesn't pick up his diamond draw on the turn. Now he has (in his mind) probably 3 ace outs, 3 9 outs, 9 diamond outs, so 15 outs for 3-1, if he thinks he needs to improve his ace high (which I would probably in his place only think a 50-50 chance).
On the river, in your place I would probably have checked and then checkraised if given a chance, thus losing more money (duh).
Anyways, I think the time to try to buy this pot is on the flop, not on the turn after what is practically the blankest blank in the deck hits.
Any comments on my thoughts appreciated...
You should bet the flop in this shorthanded, unraised pot having a pair. Against only two opponents, one of whom has checked to you, you could win the pot outright. Furthermore, you have outs if you are called by a better hand. At least you found a bet on the turn. At the river, it is unthinkable to fold having made your flush when you get raised. Simply call and pay off. Had you bet the flop he might have folded but who knows?
I think betting the flop is OK here despite what I said in my post. I do not think that checking was a terrible mistake, but betting can probably not be too wrong either. Against opponents who will often fold, betting is probably better than checking.
dave in cali
NEVER muck in this situation. pay off and once in a blue moon you will actually lose to a better flush. no shame in the way you played it. I can't really see that you made any mistakes here.
dave in cali
Here's 4 (2/4) hands I played on Paradise Poker. Am I unlucky or am I really that bad? I'm in seat 5 all these hands.
I'm UTG with JJ. I normally don't raise in this situation. I don't like my JJ if there's a re-raise. And if it is raised, my REALLY good pocket pair is well hidden. Here's the hand:
(5) : Call ($2), (6): Call ($2), (7) : Call ($2), (8): Fold, (9) : Fold, (10): Call ($2), (1) :call ($2), (Button) : Fold, (SB) : Fold, (BB) : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Th Js Qd ]
(BB) : Bet ($2), (5) : Raise ($4), (6): Call ($4), (7) : Raise ($6), (10): Fold, (1) : Call ($6), (BB) : Call ($4), (5) : Call ($2), (6): Call ($2)
This is routine, right?
*** TURN *** : [ Th Js Qd ] [ 7s ]
Now it's checked to seat 7 who bets and everyone calls.
*** RIVER *** : [ Th Js Qd 7s ] [ 4h ]
Checked to seat 7 again who bets. Seat 1 & 5 call.
I lost $16 on that one to 9s8h.
Should I have raised BTF? Is that a dumb question?
---------------------------------
Here I have AdKc
UTG folds. I bet and get one caller.
*** FLOP *** : [ Kd Qh Th ]
I've got top pair, ultimate kicker. I bet out and get raised. I call. Now I'm in check call mode unless I improve dramatically.
*** TURN *** : [ Kd Qh Th ] [ Tc ]
I check and call a bet.
*** RIVER *** : [ Kd Qh Th Tc ] [ 9c ]
I check and call a bet.
I lose $16 when my opponent flopped the nuts with AsJc. Should I have played it differently?
------------------------------------------
I'm on the button with Kc2c. There are 2 callers to me. I call with my group7 on the button. The SB calls and BB checks.
*** FLOP *** : [ 2d Js 8c ]
It's checked around!
*** TURN *** : [ 2d Js 8c ] [ Jc ]
Now seat 10 bets, I call with my flush draw. I'm thinking a Club or 2 or K and I'm likely the winner. SB raises. Seat 10 folds and I call.
*** RIVER *** : [ 2d Js 8c Jc ] [ 2s ]
SB bets and I call all-in.
I lose to Jd8h.
I never should have been in the hand, right?
----------------------------------------
I'm dealt AcAs. UTG folds. Next player calls. I raise. Next player calls. Button calls. SB Folds. BB Calls. Original caller calls. We see the flop 5 handed.
*** FLOP *** : [ 9s 7h Jh ]
Checked to me. I bet and get 3 callers. 2 after me and one before.
*** TURN *** : [ 9s 7h Jh ] [ 9h ]
The player on my right now bets. My stomach sinks and I'm in call to the river mode.
*** RIVER *** : [ 9s 7h Jh 9h ] [ 4s ]
Now it's checked around.
Seat 4 has Kd9d and takes it down. This is routine, right?
Now UTG is on my right. I have AcJs. I'm beginning to staem a little. UTG folds. I raise. Cutoff calls. Button folds. SB re-raises. BB calls 2 bets. Myself and the cutoff call.
*** FLOP *** : [ 9h 3h 8c ]
SB bets and we all call.
*** TURN *** : [ 9h 3h 8c ] [ 6d ]
It's checked to cutoff who bets. SB check-raises. BB and I Fold. Cutoff calls.
*** RIVER *** : [ 9h 3h 8c 6d ] [ 8h ]
Cutoff folds to a bet on the river
Did I play that right?
Thanks,
-Michael
If you are, I am; how about this hand in 5-10 no less:
Dealt to Quilksilver [ Qc 7c ]
1)fold 2)Call 3)Call 4)5) fold 6)me:Call 7)Raise 8)SB:Call 9)BB:Fold 2)Fold 3)call 6)me:Call
*** FLOP *** : [ Ac 4c 8c ] I flop second nut flush
8)Check 3)Check 6)Check 7)Bet 8)Call 3)Fold 6)Raise 7)Call 3)Call
*** TURN *** : [ Ac 4c 8c ] [ 4s ]
8) Check 6) Bet 3) Call 8) Raise 6) Raise 3) Fold 8) Call
*** RIVER *** : [ Ac 4c 8c 4s ] [ Ad ]
8)Check 6)Check
*** SUMMARY *** Pot: $147 | Rake: $3 Board: [ Ac 4c 8c 4s Ad ]
8) shows [ 4h 6h ]
He called a checkraise on the flop with a pair of 4's. Sigh.
Seat 3 notes that he folded an ace. Oh well.
you should be happy that the players with a pair of fours on a one suited board and no flush draw called a check-raise on the flop. you must have been in a GOOD game.
we are not all destined to lose. otherwise I would give up the game. however, winning is not easy and there is no magic bullet.
dave in cali
Well, there isn't much to say about most of these hands.
You are right that the Kc2c was a dubious call. I also would be thinking on the turn that clubs are your only out. Its a bit surprising it got checked around on the flop but top two pair on a rainbow board with minimal straight chances may be big enough to slowlplay it; maybe he was going for a checkraise.
The only other hand I would comment on is the last one; I have found on paradise that when you have overcards, it is best to either lead the betting or fold. Check-calling with overcards gives a weak image to the other players.
Other than that, maybe I would fold the AA after the board was at 9977 with a few callers.
Most of these hands are just you hitting your cards but the board being scary and someone else hitting. This is how it goes, sorry.
Learn to read hands after the flop, believe in the flop, know when to fold after the flop, know the odds of continuing after the flop, anything is possible after the flop in low limit, stay away from self-weighting interests after the flop, know when you are beat after the flop, know that the opponent flopped the nuts against your top pair with top kicker, life is a mother f***** , then we go on to the next hand, so is life in any poker casino USA.
On the first hand I think you should open with a raise under the gun having pocket Jacks. You probably have the best hand and you want to limit the field by forcing everyone to call two bets cold otherwise you are just inviting a table full opponents to take cheap shots at you by gettng a cheap flop. At least you want to avoid giving the blinds a free flop. When the flop comes I think you should cap the betting at $8 having a set of Jacks. No one may have a straight and with two cards to come you have a lot of outs to a full house if someone happens to have a straight. No one raised pre-flop so no one has AK. The rest of your plays are fine.
On the second hand when you say "I bet and get one caller" I am assuming that you raised with big slick and did not just limp in. You played this hand correctly. I would not fold having Kings up with the best kicker.
On the third hand I would not limp even from the button with King-shit suited with only two limpers but your limp is not a bad play in a little game like this where players go too far with their hands. With four opponents, two of whom have checked to you, you may want to bet the flop with your bottom pair, backdoor Club flush draw, and King overcard. You might win the pot outright and you have a lot of outs if you are called. The rest of your play is fine and it would be playing results to say you should have never been in. If your pre-flop call is wrong, it is not wrong by much in a game like this.
On the fourth hand, nothing to be done when your pocket rockets go down in flames.
On the fifth hand, I don't like your plays here at all. Pre-flop, Ace-Jack offsuit is not a raising hand in early position. You should limp and not raise. When re-raised by the small blind you figure to be playing against AA,KK,QQ,JJ, or AK all of which badly cripple your hand. On the flop, you have a clear fold when bet into by a pre-flop re-raiser having no pair, no draw, and no hand.
First off before even reading the rest, your ideas about not raising early with jacks are misguided. You have a hand that would rather not have three or four opponents, so raising will usually lessen the field and make your hand more likely to win the pot. Also, if the BB gets a free play and you lose to deuces and eights you are going to be sorry you didn't raise. Also, a reraise often will help you by limiting the field to just you and one other whom you have a pre-flop advantage over. Only once in a while would it be good for you to limp preflop, the rest of the times you will more likely be hurt. Don't screw around, raise with your jacks.
Second, you will do better to describe the action in a more simplistic manner. for example, on the first hand, on the flop:
Flop comes Th Js Qd. The BB bets out 2$, I am next and raise to 4$. One cold caller and the next player raises to 6$, next player calls and the next cold calls 3 bets. BB calls two more, and I call. Original raiser calls the extra 2$. 5 players.
For the record, you should have CAPPED THE FLOP. Don't screw around!! You flopped a set on a coordinated board where several players are likely to have a straight draw or two pair. Even if someone has AK you will still do well to charge the stragglers the max and get good value on your excellent full house draw.
On the turn you CHECKED!!!!!!!! BET. And if raised, definitely CALL or even reraise!!!!! SCREWING AROUND!
Duhh. Raise BTF. I'm going to have to "send over some guys" to break your legs if I see another post where you were first in with jacks, played like a wimp, then lost to offsuited connectors.
I'm not commenting on the remaining hands, but for the most part you pretty much played like a wimp.
Keep studying and you'll get there. At least you are spending time thinking about the game and your play away from the table.
dave in cali
In a wild 3-6 Hold 'Em game at the Trop. I am on the button with Jack-Ten Off, early position raise, I call b/c everyone one in front of me called (mistake?). Unfortunately, the bet is raised by the big blind and subsequently capped, everyone but one calls. This is a huge pot preflop. Flop comes 7-8-rag rainbow. Bet to me and I call (I think I have to go for the gutshot with the huge pot odds). Turn comes a 3, two hearts on board. It is bet to me and I call, but then it is raised behind me and I call (should I have called in the first place?). River comes a 10, and I am forced to make a crying call with my top pair (which loses to someone who rivered trip tens with his pocket pair). Should I have played this hand differently? All comments appreciated.
JTo is a tough hand in that situation. (8-handed capped preflop) If you flop a pair, you are very likely outkicked. If you flop two pair, at least one of your opponents almost certainly has a Broadway straight draw that they are not going to give up to your raise on the flop or turn.
If you flop a straight, you could get run down by flushes and boats with everyone calling to the river.
When you flop a straight draw, which is pretty often, you have odds to call to the river.
It's a hand you can make a lot on, but you can also lose a lot.
In most wild games, I won't call a raise with JTo when I suspect the betting is going to be capped. I will call with JT suited if I think my opponents are raising with crap, but not if they are turning over AA, KK and AKs with regularity.
If I think it's going to be capped, I only call with a hand I feel comfortable paying 5 small bets (AA - JJ, AK, AKs)
If JTo is that type of hand for you, good call. If JTo is too speculative a hand for you to put a lot of money in on, then fold.
If I was 90% sure that the blinds would just call, I have an easy call. If I think the betting is going to be capped, I fold and wait for those premium hands in that situation.
I play this way to cut down my swings, even though I know I may be giving up long term EV.
Pre-flop you should not call two bets cold with Jack-Ten offsuit regardless of how many players limp in ahead of you. Make it suited and you have a call. Given the huge pot, I think the rest of your play is fine. But this is why you should have folded in the first place. You end up with a marginal holding where your outs are few, the opponents are many, and the pot is large.
fold BTF.
once you are in this pot you played OK but you do not have enough to enter the pot in the first place. this is why we don't play JTo if the pot is raised.
Trouble hand.
dave in cali
no offence,but if you think the game is wild,then it must be out of this world wild. you seemed to be the wildest player there.
I am laughing... thank you.
AA in sb,in a 4-8 loose game.five callers pre-flop.is calling,not raising correct?and post flop,w/7,8,9 rainbow,i lead bet get raise and reraised.i folded,correct?
1. Yes, AA is a raising hand despite the fact there are five callers BTF.
2. yes again, on the flop you should fold to a
3 bet with a 789 flop.
Pre-flop you should always raise with AA regardless of how many players limp in. You have the best possible starting hand in poker and should raise with it. Once the flop comes, when you bet and get raised and re-raised with a coordinated board like that, I think folding is clear.
2-4 Holdem at PP.
I'm dealt KsTs UTG. I raise (don't comment. It was a good play for the table and my image, IMO). Player to left (PTL) calls 2 cold. All fold to BB who calls.
Flop: AsQsXs.
BB: check ME: Bet
Both fold.
My thinking: That's a scary board after UTG (me) raised. Even these two guys probably have me on at least AK. There's no cards that can come on the turn that will help either one of them catch up that AREN'T ALREADY THERE (that's an important distinction in this non slow play). If they're drawing to broadway or have a single spade, they're going to call the cheap bet which will hopefully tie them into calling another bet on the turn if they catch up a little. Anyone with trips is going to call anyway, so I have to bet against them.
If I had one of them pegged as a habitual bluffer, I might have checked and let them "take over" on the turn. They both were players who called with more hands than they bet with, though, and I really thought I'd get at least one call. Sometimes they just don't match up though.
Comments on the play?
Ark
I don't like your pre-flop raise. In fact I would only limp in with this hand pre-flop if the game were extremely passive with hardly any raising. Once the flop comes, if your opponent won't call a bet on the cheap street he probably has nothing and will fold regardless. Here is a case where raising pre-flop on a weak, speculative drawing hand like this may have cost you money. Wouldn't it have been nice to have several players limp in behind you rather than driving them out with a raise pre-flop?
in a typical 2-4 game I would bet the nut flush the whole way and not slowplay at all, so I think you played fine.
however, if one of them has two pair, you DO have cards that could hurt you on the turn. Given that they called a raise, two pair is certainly not out of the question here, nor is a set.
I still don't like your pre-flop raise. Limp maybe.
dave in cali
One thing to consider is that even though most turn cards won't help hands that aren't already there, someone with a hand like JTo might fold to the flop bet, but if they spike a K on the turn, can't resist calling or even raising, and might even call if they caught a J. Heck, even when your hand is as obvious as night and day, they'll often still call you down. I've checked quads twice on an AAx flop and x turn after some sort of heavy preflop action, and gotten called down by some turd pair that hit on the river, like a 6 that 76s spiked, or whatever. They still can't resist calling to keep you honest.
I'm still inclined to just bet it out here, but you should consider the above.
-Sean
I was playing 2-4 at Garden City in SJ for the first time (I play a lot more online) and for the first hour or so I was playing tight and was ahead $50 or so, then for the next two hours I got trash hands, or the flop missed me completely. That combined with the $3 on the button ate up my whole stack.
blah
I think i'll stay online until i move higher so the rake doesn't hurt as much.
One thing I noticed immediately when I started playing 6/12 was that the rake and tokes did not bite into my winning so much.
I don't play online. Low limit games are to learn how to play. To play intelligent poker, I find that I must play at least 5-10 HE or Stud. IMHO.
Next time you play in that live game, line up an extra $100 buy-in to be used only for drops and tokes. In about eight hours or so, you will have busted a rack to the house. Bad business.
On the other hand, online play offers the lowest rake available outside private games. If you play tight, you will not even pay half of what you pay in the live game, possibly as little as a third.
--- Chris Callahan
Don´t play in $2/4 with a dead button drop of $3, you´ll have a hard time beating that game.
Feeney, and everyone.
Could you read my two posts, one entitled "Am I destined to lose" and the other "another hand for comment". I'm really getting frustrated and want to know if I played these hands in a reasonable fasion. These are all on Paradise 2/4.
Thanks in advance - any comments are appreciated.
-Michael
cv
Studying/playing since 9/99. 99% of my live play is in CA. The other 1% is in Vegas. And I play on Paradise of course.
Thanks, I hope to hear your thoughts.
@
It seems to me you are still pretty young when it comes to Poker. I think you need more experience at the table, and you also may want to consider a couple lessons from David to get your thinking on the right track.
I looked over the hands you played, and your comments seem as though you are still unsure of how to Analyze your hands. That's fine because we are all here to learn. I don't think you are "destined to lose", but I do think you need to keep working at your game.
CV
Thanks ... that's a bit re-assuring. You mean lessons from "Dave from Cali" or DS? Aren't lessons hyper-expensive (the irony)?
Thanks,
-Michael
Michael if you are going to take lessons and just play low or medium limit poker than I would recommend Bob Ciaffone for $25 per hour. When you are ready to play $40-$80 or higher than give David Sklansky a call.
I find myself agreeing with Jim more and more these days, so I don't know if that means I'm mellowing out or if Jim's hitting some goofballs before he logs Anyway, I don't know what use a $2-4 player would have for private lessons from Sklansky, considering that a couple hours with Sklansky would probably cost somewhere in the ballpark of a $2-4 bankroll. (Additionally, I can't imagine that a $80-160 or higher pro like Sklansky would have an edge of more than $4 per hour over a $20-40 caliber pro in a $2-4 game, so you wouldn't be able to use David's personal advice profitably for a while.) Use your money to buy every good book you can get your hands on, read the covers off them, and if you've reached the $20-40 level or higher and need additional help, then consider private lessons with Sklansky.
Besides, David would rather you spend your $25 on Gary Carson's book instead of 6 minutes of lessons with him.
-Sean
Well, you get what you pay for. I believe that anybody who studies the game should be able to move to at least a 5/10 game in the first year of play. In some places they could possibly get into good 10/20 games. A couple lessons from David speeds up the process by helping the player to think correctly about the game.
CV
I agree with your thoughts about moving up, but I also think that studying Theory of Poker, HPFAP, etc, in conjunction with reading this board, RGP, and thinking about the game away from the tables, should be enough to help a thinking player beat most 10-20 games for at least a small amount. If a person needs private lessons from a top-notch pro to beat a 10-20 after having digested all the material contained in the books, that person is probably missing something. (If nothing else, game selection skills.)
-Sean
If that was true then couldn't you also say that only people who are "missing something" go to college to be taught?
CV
No, I'd think a more apropos analogy would be that the only reason to consult with a tutor outside of class would be if you missed something from the lecture or the textbook.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that many players could greatly benefit from David's lessons, and I might even take some myself when I'm ready to make the jump to 40-80 or 50-100. But I can't see how a $2-4 player could benefit from $250/hr lessons.
-Sean
The biggest problem that poker students face is that most players can't teach. So Sklansky would be more of a teacher than a remedial tutor when it came to poker lessons. I believe David offers group rates also.
I agree that throwing a Sklansky Lesson at a average 2/4 player would be a like using a Bazooka for a job a BB-gun could do, but I don't think Michael is an average 2/4 player.
CV
@
"another hand for comment" is the one I'm more interested in. I'm actually intersted in them all if anyone has the time.
Thanks,
-Michael
Mike,
Reading your hands I think you need some time at a real table to help to understand how the game really goes down. I think you made way to many calls in these situations, especially when two nines and hearts hit the board and you beat out with aces. You might want to spend more time looking at the board for those scare cards, which in most situations, WILL beat you. Don't get into "check-call" mode just because someone raises. You've got to learn to let some hands go.
My Worthless Opinion
"Rook"
(n/t)
Sometimes you will get frustrated with this game. if you cannot handle it, you will not be a long term winner, which by the way, is the only way to be a real winner at poker or any other form of gambling.
sometimes you post on the forum and don't get the answers you seek. shit happens, once in a while I have posted and gotten no responses. lucky for you some of us were in a talkative mood and we can type really fast.
Also, I am a scientist and hereby declare: there is no such thing as destiny when it comes to poker. Destiny is for mystics, religion, superstitios people, and various other persuasions (which I cannot necessarily explain away with science, but that is a different story which I'm not touching). but poker is not one of them. if you play well, you will win as long as you play enough and "really are" playing well. however, read mason's work on the long run in "gambling theory and other topics" before you get too excited.
Besides "don't slowplay", my favorite forum line is "there's no magic bullet".
dave in cali
I just want to thank everyone for their responses. They've helped in my current state of self-uncertainty. It's hard to know if you're playing "good poker" when you understand variance, SD, and long run. It's also hard when someone bets you off of a hand in one situation, but in another they actually have the hand they are representing with their bets.
Thanks again everyone!
ok what's the name of that computer program where you can play simulated games? is it turbo texas? and honestly... will it REALLY improve my online game? dont talk to me about playing live games, i live nowhere near a poker room.. im determined to learn to beat the 5-10 and 8-16 games at paradise. i do just fine now in the 2-4, thank you.
any details about the program(s) and whether it's worth the money and more importantly the time would be really useful. where can i get them if i should and how much?
yours truly, determined!
the Turbo series of poker software, Wilson Software (check the Favorite Links, or in Conjelco's catalog).
I believe it will help, but haven't played online.
I was playing some 3-6 at a casino when the following hand occurred.
I was in the SB with QQ and a fellow in middle position raised preflop and there are 3 callers when it gets back to me. I call.
The flop is A-Q-x rainbow. I check the raiser bets, 2 callers i raise, he 3 bets I 4 bet (by now the rest of the callers have folded) and he 5 bets. At this point I'm totally sold that he has AA and I just call. I check call the turn and river (which didn't add any flush or straight possibilities, and no king/ace/queen) and he flips over... AQ? I was left wondering if i should have raised him on either the turn or the river, but I felt the 5 bet was a clear indication of trip aces considering his preflop raise. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks Mark
First of all, before the flop you should have re-raised. Your hand is plenty good enough for that. Make the BB fold his garbage. Make everyone else pay through the nose to play against your premium hand.
After the flop, you simply can't be afraid of set over set. It's very rare and when it happens you should lose LOTS of money. When it doesn't you will usually make LOTS of money. You should have raised on every street, IMO.
David
I had this exact same thing happen to me in a 3-6 game, and i lost 40$ when he showed me AA.
For what it is worth!
I know, that's a risk you take. You still will make more money in the long run playing middle (and bottom) set pretty darn aggressively.
Sometimes you've just got to get in there and fire chips with both hands.
Don't ever let the the outcome of a single event dictate how you respond to future events at the poker table. That is the road to mediocrity at best.
David
I agree with David.
You should have reraised pre-flop.
On the flop, I would have bet, hoped he raised, this would likely thin the field and give me the chance to reraise and make runner runner and gutshot draws really pay. If he has JJ or KK he might check, might as well bet and hope he raises.
But in your case, when he 3 bets I would have flat called here and check-raised the turn. The other players will get trapped between you 2. If you get reraised then check-call the river.
Like David said, you have to lose $ when you flop a set and lose. Set over set is a rare occurence and it should not affect your play. He could have AK, AQ, AJ or A-x and flopped 2 pair or an underset xxx. You did not mention if the player was solid or not, eliminate xxx and A-x if he was.
Anyway the only hand you don't beat is AA.
IMO the other fellow overplayed his hand when you 4 betted it. When a player 4 bets, it usually means a set. He should have called your rereraise on the flop. Called your bet on the turn or bet himself had you not bet.
Hope this helped,
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I would generally play AQ the same way he did.
With your hand, I would generally 3-bet before the flop, as it gets more money in the pot and further defines your opponent's. If you had done so and your opponent just flat called instead of 4-betting, you could knock down the AA possibility a few rungs, at least until facing heavy action on a later street. Barring that, given this sequence I would have either led on the turn or have gone for a check-raise. I tend to prefer leading, 3-betting the turn, calling a 4-bet, and check-calling the river. I don't like check-raising the turn as much because if I don't know if I can reliably 4-bet the turn there, although perhaps I could against opponents who are overaggressive on later streets. (In my experience, most 3-6 opponents are either weak or overaggressive on later streets. It's rare to find someone who plays roughly correctly on later streets, and that's probably true in general as well.)
-Sean
1) What exactly constitutes a "Short Handed" game. 7 players? 6? Ive read S&M on short handed games, but I didnt see a good definition.
2) If there were no rake, how much looser would one play? Rake aside, poker is a zero sum game and (it would seem to me) in loose games, should allow for playing more hands pre-flop than is suggested by S&M and most other authorities - and then outplaying the weak loose players at the flop and beyond. But the rake does seem to justify a much more conservative strategy. (I just hate sitting and folding and folding and folding...and then often still losing.)
3) What method do dealers use to keep track of the total amount in the pot? They seem very adept at keeping track of the rake while dealing. Are they trained to count small bets or keep an exact total? I count small bets, but wonder if there is an easier way - and figure that whatever method the dealers use has got to be pretty good.
Thanks in advance,
Canuck
I don't know how dealers do it, but I learned a good way to track the pot from Ken Warren's book. (It is probably the only good lesson I took away from that book!)
It sounds confusing, but it works pretty good in practice.
After the preflop, multiply the players by the preflop bets. (Note if the blinds are in or not).
On the flop, start with the number of bets you have preflop and add the flop bets as they go in as action goes around the table.
When the betting on the flop is finished, divide the small bets by 2. This gives you the number of big bets in the pot.
On the turn and river, count the bets as they go in. Take the final number, add any blinds that folded preflop, take out the rack and there is your number.
The reason I like to add the bets as they go in on the flop, turn and river is because that makes it easy to keep track when someone bets or calls on bet on a round, but folds to a raise. This happens far more often in later rounds than it does preflop.
It also allows you to know your exact pot odds whenever the action is on you.
1) I tend to consider 6 or less "shorthanded," but it really doesn't matter. As you become experienced you should consider each possible combination of players under its own merit, just like you should consider each position relative to the button under its own merit (as opposed to "middle position," "early position," etc.)
2) You should play tighter in a raked game as opposed to a game with a time charge/button charge/game where the house takes no charge. Loose players are badly punished in a raked game. With a time charge poker isn't zero-sum, but you can loosen up just as much as you would if there was no house charge at all.
3) I just count as it goes around the table, as each player puts in a call I go 1, 2, 3, etc. and if a raise, 2, 4, 6, etc. On the turn I divide by half and start the count from there. It becomes second nature pretty quickly.
The problem with counting flop callers and multiplying is that you lose track when people put in 1 bet but drop for 2, 3, or 4.
-Sean
Dealers don't have to count very high to take a full rake. In addition, they usually don't need to do any other calculations simultaneously, so it really is easier than correctly solving the problem as a player.
canuck said: "(I just hate sitting and folding and folding and folding...and then often still losing.)"
..then hold em is not the game for you.
I was playing a passive 5-10, i have a king 10 of diamonds, flop is qs js 6c the flop is called buy the sb i call 3 more callers after me and the button raises everyone calls. the turn is a Qc its checked to me i call there is a raise one caller and i reraise(all in for 35) two callers. At this point im hopping that no one gets a flush on the river but i never expected this a qh. As it turns out no one was on a flush draw the other two had a 2 pair on the turn and a tight on the river one had jqoff and a q9of. Now im wondering if i made the right move raising on the turn with two differnt flush possiblities. I think i did please comment
First off, in the future, space out your post, use the enter key, it will be easier for us to read you and you'll get more comments.
You did not give much of the specifics like your position and the exact amount of players seing the flop. I will guess you were in early to early-middle position since there were 3 callers + the button acting after you on the flop.
And then you say the flop is called, I assume you meant bet. Then you say on the turn it's checked to you, you call... hunh? What are you calling if it's checked to you?
Come to think of it can you clarify? It'll be easier if we get a clearer picture.
In any case, if I got it right, your call on the flop is marginal. You probably only have 6 outs because of the possible flush draw.
I don't think you can bet or call on the turn. Other than the flush possibilities, you could be drawing dead, i.e someone could already have QJ, or AQ which kills you (Q9 is remote but always a possibility). And in either case he has redraws against you.
And you should always have enough chips in front of you to not get all-in, you'll lose $ should you flop great.
Hope this helped,
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I've been playing 3-6 up till now. I move up to a 4-8 game. There are a number of dealers and a house prop in the game.
I have KJo in the small blind and limp, no raises. Flop comes KJK. I bet and everyone (3) folds. Should I have waited for the turn or river? I try and follow the suggestions of betting when you have the best of it. Thanks in advance Bob
This depends, sometimes I bet, other times I don't.
Was the flop 2 suited?
Are your opponents solid or bad?
What is your image?
Against only 3 players(plus 1 of them is in the big blind) I'd tend to check-call and check-raise or bet the turn. If noone shows aggression.
It's hard pinpoint how to maximize your profit here, it depends a lot on the players.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Hi, Bob, nice to see you posting. I met you a while back at Gamblers World. Please send me an e-mail so I can get your address.
If this was at Gila River or Casino Arizona, it sounds like a fluke if the game was that tight. Usually you would have anyone with a Jack or an Ace, or 3 to a straight, or ... anything, calling a single flop bet.
Like the Prince said, you can hopefully do better with this decision next time if you can judge the character of the table at this moment, and check if your opponents still in are somewhat timid, and bet most other times. If in doubt, I think you should bet against this usually loose crowd. You did nothing wrong.
Dick
I am normally not a big fan of slowplaying but in this situation you have a hand that is virtually unbeatable. I would not bet here and if someone else bet I would probably just call. I will frequently even check the turn. Now all that being said, if no one wanted to call your flop bet you were probably not going to make any money on this hand anyway.
You have a HUGE hand i would check call to the river, then bet the river.
This clearly is an instance where you could have slow-played because there are next to no turn or river cards you can lose against. (If you´ve got a tight image, that´s another reason for slow-playing)
Eight limpers to me on the SB and I raised with KJs in a 3-6 HE game. Was this raise correct? All comments appreciated.
I'd say no.
Although this would be a great play from a late position, from the small blind, I usually don't do it. Maybe others do so but not me. You have the worse position on the flop and you'll have 8 players acting AFTER you. A lot of action could take place after you have bet if you hit.
I like to flat call here. I don't raise with many hands from the blinds, usually only premiums pairs.
This depends on you. The fact that I don't do it does not mean you shouldn't.
Of course this play adds to your variance. I like to add to my variance when I have position.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Good raise. After 8 limpers, you should be raising with a wide variety of hands, and KJs is an excellent hand in that situation. Those who raise with only premium pairs out of the blinds are 1) too readable and 2) too willing to leave money on the table. I would only just call there if I were ridiculously short-stacked without the ability to rebuy or underbankrolled.
Failing to raise with KJs in the small blind after 8 limpers in a 3-6 game is a substantially bigger mistake than calling with 72s on the button after 8 limpers in a 3-6 game.
-Sean
Sean:
Nice to see we disagree, I hope it will lead to exchanging ideas.
First off, we are talking low-limit here so the fact that YOU (an educated player) are able to read me, I don't mind much since I usually won't be profiting from you anyway. The clowns don't notice these things. It's like when a solid player raises UTG. You know he has a good hand. So do I. It does not matter. Maybe you and I will fold but the weaker ones won't, and these are the important folks.
Second, say you limped and then I raised you from my blind. So what ? so you know I have a big hand, are you going to fold it for 1 more bet ? no... The only thing it gives you is a better read on me after but I don't care, you'll usually fold on the flop anyway.
BTW I do raise with many hands from the blinds depending on the players and how many are out there.
Hold'em is a game of position. EVERY single player has that advantage on you on the flop...and on the turn.. and on the river.
Like I said, I'll raise it from a better position every time, I just don't like that play from the blinds. It does not make it wrong, it's just not my style. And BTW, I'm very aggressive.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
First, I hope you didn't take my comments personally. When I drop by the small stakes board I usually try to reply to as many posts as possible.
You're right that being predictable isn't terribly important at 3-6, but many winning 3-6 players who make the jump to bigger limits by playing terribly weak-tight and predictably, and it's better to nip bad habits in the bud.
Hopefully the predictability reference wasn't a red herring--the biggest reason the failure to raise is a huge mistake is because it leaves so much money on the table. When 8 people see the flop, most of them are playing trash. They're playing hands like Q7o, 93s, and the like. You can, and must, punish the shit out of them by raising before the flop.
Hold'em is highly positional in general, but it's not terribly relevant here. First, the positional advantage of some clown holding Q7o is pretty irrelevant in the first place. Take your KJs in the blind and give the Q7o to a 20-40 caliber pro, and I guarantee you that as long as you play competently after the flop that you'll win more than the Q7o player in that scenario. It follows that in these loose games where you must show down the best hand, that having a big hand is much more important than having good position, therefore, you must put the money in the pot when you have a big hand.
As an aside, relative position is more important in these sorts of games than absolute position, but I think I'll leave that up to others to elaborate.
You can't beg off a substantial mistake (I estimate that failure to raise with KJs after 8 limpers in a 3-6 game is at least a 2/3 small bet mistake, possibly more) with stylistic concerns. You could make that argument for a hand like T8s, perhaps, but not a huge hand like KJs. You really think that only AA-JJ/AKs-AJs/KQs are the only profitable hands with which to raise there? I'm just not sure what the many hands with which you raise out of the blinds could be if you're passing a raise with KJs and 8 limpers.
-Sean
nt
Two points:
(1) In a 3/6 game raising out of the blinds with KJs is purely a value bet. Deception is pointless in 3/6.
(2) The more people contesting every pot, the less important position is. In a 8 way jammed pot, the best hand is going to win. Position matters little. In a tight 10/20 game, the entire game is about position. In a loose game, forget position (unless the game is very aggressive, then you must be very very tight from early and middle position) and just get the most money in the pot when you have the best of it and fold when you dont.
I would be more prone to make this play with one or two limpers than with a whole table full. With this many players it will take the best hand to win and your poor position coupled with the speculative nature of your hand means that you are handicapped. Players limp in with KQ,AJ, and other cards containing Kings and Jacks which seriously cripple your chances for improvement. You are hoping for a flush or straight as your best shot at winning this pot against a large field like this. But you hurt your implied odds when you raise here plus you open up the possibility of further raising. Now all that being said it cannot be a bad play but it is not a play I would make. If you are doing this to "vary your play" I would respectfully submit that your efforts are wasted in a little game like this since your opponents are basically unaware anyway. It might make more sense in a bigger game where your opponents are more astute.
I'm actually a bit surprised that you disagree with a raise here, Jim. I advocate thin value raises before the flop fairly often, but I don't think this one is all that thin or all that close. With 8 limpers ahead of you, there have to be some real garbage hands out there. I would raise with KJs purely for value to punish the clowns playing Q7o, 64o, A5o, etc. Even if a dominating hand like KQ/AJ is out, there are enough fish in the pot to soften the blow. Perhaps a novice is better off just calling in order to keep the pot small (as a novice might be more likely to tie himself to the pot if he raises), but I would think most players with at least a bit of experience would profit nicely from a raise here.
As an aside, I feel a lot more comfortable raising with a hand like KJs than a hand like 99 here. A lot of people seem more inclined to raise with the medium pairs than the non-ace suited hands, but in loose games with big pots I usually feel like I know where I'm at more often with the KJs type hand.
Someone asked what do to when the flop completely misses you. I don't think there's anything wrong with raising before the flop and check-folding when you miss. That extra bet doesn't obligate you to pound away at a whiff--it's only $3! You'll have to do that from time to time when raising out of the blinds into a large field. (I.e. raising with AQs, K on the flop and no other face card or card of your suit, and you're in check-fold city.)
-Sean
Clearly raising here with King-Jack suited will camouflage those times when you want to raise on your premium hands like AA or KK. There is nothing wrong with raising pre-flop and then check-folding once the flop comes if it misses you. I do this with AK all the time against a large field where I raise and then miss the flop totally.
I don't mind punishing clowns who come on trash holdings like Queen-Seven offsuit, Ace-Five offsuit, and Six-Four offsuit when I figure to have the best hand. But it is not clear to me that I benefit by raising with King-Jack here if one of the many limpers has Ace-Jack or King-Queen. I think the guy with King-Queen or Ace-Jack benefits from my raise at my expense. I would much rather raise here with AK or even AQ against a lot of limpers out of position like this than with KJ suited.
I totally agree with you. Its a pure value bet. With 8 limpers you don't need the best hand. You dont even need the second best hand. The 3rd best hand will make money by raising in this spot.
I know people dont believe TTH simulations, but they show that KJs can be the 3rd best hand and still make money against 8 limpers by raising.
I would raise in this situation 100% of the time. I would raise in this situation with any two suited royalty, any suited connectors down to 78s, any suited ace, and pairs down to 88. The only offsuit hand I would raise with would be AK or AQ.
The reason that suitedness makes such a huge difference is because with 8 players you need about 15% equity in the pot, and suited cards have about 4% more equity than unsuited. When your talking about 15%, 4% extra is huge.
KJs has 19% equity in the pot. Actually its probably around 18% considering the 8 limpers aren't QUITE completely random. If I had TTH handy, I could give you a better percentage, but I think 18% is pretty accurate. Not raising with it is a huge mistake against 8 limpers.
Actually, KJo even has 15% equity in the pot. It would be marginal whether raising with KJo in this position would be profitable. I wouldnt do it, though. For the simple reason that (1) raising is marginally profitable so your really making money for the best hands not yours and (2) your making the pot huge so that anybody will have odds to take cards off against you. Number 2 is still an issue with KJs, but the extra equity you make by raising more than compensates for the money your losing by giving people drawing odds.
The above logic also applies to AJo and KQo, although with these two hands TTH says raising is more profitable. I would limp in this situation with both, though.
No, you´re out of position, I prefer not to raise. Imagine you don´t make your hand, what are you gonna do: Bet with nothing? Let it go although you´ve got overcards?
If you´d been in late position you could have raised preflop and taken a free card if the flop misses.
Please help.
I play small stakes (6&12 stud poker)on a regular basis. For about a month now, I can not get a card if my life depended on it. And when I do, I get a bad beat. I consider myself a good player, but the cards are not comming. I keep waiting for my cards to change but it's not happening. My question is, should I keep waiting it out, or take some time off. I took about 2 weeks off but that did'nt seem to change anything. Thank you.
but this Q applies to hold em too.
dan,
I am not sure how to interpret what you are saying, but of course you cannot change your luck by taking time off. The cards will still be random when you come back.
Anyway, it is not that unusual to have a losing month even if you play well. I big concern for many players, though, is that they tend to play worse when they get on a losing streak, thereby making things worse. If you discover this, it is probably time to take time off.
During your break from the tables, take a really good look at your game. Reread some poker litterature (if you have any) and follow some interesting 2+2 threads. Even if you are a good player there is always plenty of room for improvement. Try to see especially if you have reacted negatively to losing. Are you playing to many hands and too passively, as many players would in this situation? Post some hands to the forum to see what the gurus think about your plays.
Good luck.
--- Chris Callahan
In addition to Chris Callahan's good advice I would add that you should consider stepping down to a lower limit game until you can regain your edge.
I have found that when the card are running bad a review of my books is a great remedy. I almost always am reminded of mistakes that I have been guilty of recently (usually unaware I’m even doing them). My play always seems to tighten up after a little soul searching and funny how the cards seem to improve.
The following happended to me three times last night and I am sure I played it incorrectly. I am a newbie, and am attempting to learn through simulation, the Lee Jones book, the Slansky and Malmuth text, and live play.
Please advise:
I hold KQo in late position, one from the button (The other two times it was a slightly worse hand, both KJo. No callers in front, I call, button calls. LB folds, BB checks. Flop is rainbow: 2,7,10.
BB checks to me. What is my play here with KQo or KJo? All three times i let the button bet after my check and folded after the BB folded in turn. Do I call? Should have bet when the BB checked to me pre-flop? How far do I take 2 overcards to an unpaired, no str8 or flush board?
This question probably has no simple answer, but any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
Given no callers before the flop and holding KQo off the button in anything resembling a normally structured game (the possible exception being a game with a horrific rake), you should open-raise before the flop 100% of the time with KQo. Open-limping with any hand is insane there, with the possible exception of AA or KK against oblivious opponents.
-Sean
thanks for the info....
As you can tell i've got a lot to learn!
Mike
Being "one from the button" means you are in the cutoff seat. You should open with a raise from the cutoff seat with KQ or KJ since you have a good playing hand under the circumstances. Your raise may drive the button out and give you position over the blinds if they choose to play. When you just open limp like this from late position you create a whole host of problems once the flop comes. If you had correctly raised pre-flop you should plan on betting the flop normally when checked to. You will frequently win the pot without a fight.
If you´re the opener you should have raised:
1) You could buy the button 2) You don´t allow the blinds a free (and semi-free) flop 3) You want as few opponents as possible on the flop with KQo 4) You´ve got position on BB and SB 5) You likely have got the best hand
So, with everyone having explained that you should have raised preflop, your original question remains unanswered.
I would say here that you probably also have to check. You did not raise preflop, so you haven't showed enough strength for the blinds or button to believe you have an overpair, so they will (correctly) deduce that you are trying to buy the pot and call. So, given that you showed weakness preflop, you probably have to continue to play this hand weakly, and drop to any bet unless you manage to hit something on the turn.
David
5- 10 online.
On the button w/ JTd. UTG limps, one call, I call (raise for value? Or do I want to entice the blinds to stay in?), LB folds, BB calls.
Flop: 8, 9, Q rainbow.
Check, bet, raise, I call (planning to raise the turn), call, call.
Turn: Qc second club on the board.
Check, bet, call, I raise, fold, call, call.
River: Kc.
Everyone checks to me. I consider runner- runner flush, but I’m much more worried about KQ. Any other club aside from K or A, I would have bet (would that be correct?). Specifically K, though, because there is no pre- flop raise.
I check.
If there is any interest, I’ll post the results later.
Before the flop, raising or calling can both be correct depending on a variety of factors. In general it's better to knock out the blinds to put dead money in the pot, so if both limpers were weak, check-folders (or check-callers), and the blinds were tight, I would be inclined to raise.
On the flop, I like a 3-bet, as flopped straights are vulnerable. There are 15 turn cards that will mean you no longer have the nuts (board pairs, a J or T), and you can't reliably go to war if one of those cards hits. Also, your opponents would have to be brain dead to not fear you calling 2 cold on the button in a small pot, provided you are a decent player. But then again, this is the small stakes board, so the latter point is probably moot.
Fearing KQ on the river is a "monster under the bed" type situation. There are only 6 ways an opponent can hold KQ, suited or offsuit, and you should be able to envision a ton of hands you can beat there. If bet into, you can make the case for just calling instead of raising (given that you showed strength on the turn, they're still betting into you, and that you're obligated to pay off a 3-bet if your opponent re-raises), but when checked to, just go ahead and bet your hand, and pay off a check-raise.
-Sean
Pre-flop, you have a speculative drawing hand and you want players in not out so raising is not recommended. Furthermore, you just hurt your implied odds on this hand plus you run the risk of a re-raise thereby having to pay 3 bets to take a flop instead of 1.
You should raise on the flop with nuts. There are a ton of cards that could come off on the turn which seriously compromise your hand. Slowplaying is a serious mistake.
Your turn raise is fine but notice that your hand is much more vulnerable now with the top card pairing.
You should raise on the river since your hand is probably best and you will get calls from worse hands than yours. Your scared thinking here underscores the futility of your slow play on the flop.
I think you played fine. I think I would have played it the exact same. The river card is scary of course so you don't want to step into a check raise against either a flush or fullhouse.
I agree with Jim's comments on the hand. - Call preflop and definitely jam it on the flop - and turn if they let you.
I think the river decision is tougher. I would not put anyone on KQ or another full house because they are almost definitely going to re-raise on the turn if they had held KQ, Q8 or Q9.
It's also hard to put your remaining opponents on a flush draw with the way they were betting previously.
I would think that I probably have the best hand, and I would think that anyone with a queen is going to call me.
If someone has me beat, well, they got me.
thanks for the comments. if i had a bit more experience, i would have had the wits about me to remember that S&M specifically address jamming the pot when you flop the nut. live and learn.... i certainly will not make that mistake again. in terms of not betting the river, i think that this is something that i do a bit too often. for whatever reason, whenever i have a good hand that isn't the nut, i want to check through (although i don't always). perhaps because i misinterpreted what S&M write about not betting on the river if you suspect that any caller will have you beaten. jim b. is right, there is fear in my game. especially on the river. i've been working hard to iron it out.
results:
he turns over the AQ. i win with the str8 to the K. next time i'll make up for those bets that i lost this time. thanks again for all the help.
-captain marlow
not so fast. not reraising on the flop didn't turn out all that badly as you were able to raise on the expensive street and get two callers (a total of 4 big bets). had you reraised on the flop, they definitely would have figured you for a powerhouse (top twopair, trips, or, most likely, the straight) and weren't likely to bet into you unless they caught a monster. which means you would have sacrificed at least 2 big bets on the turn and gained 2 or less small bets on the flop. had the flop not been rainbowed, then the reraise WOULD have been perfunctory.
on the river, if one of the two remaining opponents had bet out, I would've just called because two players had called your raise on the turn. once it was checked to you, was it correct to bet? remember that the flop was raised and that your turn raise was not reraised. that rules out Q8 and Q9. what else would someone have raised the flop with? certainly 89, possibly QT, QJ, certainly QK or QA. many but certainly not most players will raise pre-flop with QA. and many players, even in low-limit, will not call pre-flop holding QT from early position. it's impossible to be precise, but there was a high likelihood of QK being out there (roughly 30-35%) ONCE the king appeared on the river. however, it's hard to imagine someone improving to QQQKK not betting in that situation and hoping to get raised by either the flush or a smaller full house. so I would downgrade that 30-35% to maybe 5-10%. which still leaves the flush possibility. since both of these players were actively betting before the flush draw appeared, I would tend to disco