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Didn't get my hand history in time (waited over 100 hands) so I won't get this exactly right. 9 or 10 person game at PP, either 2/4 or 3/6... standard weak passive game. Guy I've played with (and was in this game) has 5's in middle position and limps. Maybe 4 people see the flop. Comes 4,5, highcard, two clubs. Blinds check, guy in front of pocket 5's bets, 5's call, one of the blinds calls. Turn is a ten and the third club. Blind bets, flop bettor calls, the set of fives raises now and both call. River is another ten, perfect. Blind bets, guy folds, 5's full raises, blind reraises!!! 5's full caps it, probably putting the blind on a flush. Guy shows 5's full of tens expecting to take down a very large pot but doesn't! Guy had T4s!!! On the flop he needed either runner runner 4,4 or T,T... how could he play like that??? Anyway, the question is, is this guy "the worst LL HE player ever???"
At the river, the board is Broadway, but a 3rd club came on the river, making a flush at least possible.
River action........
Idiot - check.
2nd Player - Check.
3rd Player - Check.
3rd Player turns over his cards, and says, "Play the board."
2nd Player - "Me too."
Idiot - mucks.
$3/$6 Hold'em at Paradise 2 off the button - QcQh
There is one Limper (4 of the button) to me I raise the Cutt/Off (CO) call - BB re-raise (somewhat a good,solid player I guess) Limper call I call CO call 4 players - $37 in pot.
FLOP : [ 4h 9d 2d ]
BB bets out Limper call I like the flop so I raise everybody calls - $61.
TURN : [ 4h 9d 2d ] [ 6h ]
ITs checked to me I bet CO raise BB call- Limper fold I call 3 players - $97.
RIVER : [ 4h 9d 2d 6h ] [ 6d ]
BB and I check to CO who bets we both call - Pot: $112 ($33 is mine) - Rake: $3
How do you like that ?
How do you read BB and CO ?
Wanna piece of the action ? How much is my hand worth ? Give me a fair price !
Analysis, results and more questions to follow !
I guess the guy who checkraised the turn has A's K's or J's (or maybe even Q's), and the other has a flush.
The problem with your logic is that PRE-flop your drawing. So your taking -EV pre-flop to try to make it up post-flop. Then when you flop a draw, and now you can bet and raise with +EV you decide to slow down for variance sake. So which way do you want it? It seems dumb to me to spend a SB on a -EV play, then slow down with that same hand once it hits something when its now +EV. You sound like the typical calling station. This is a really bad way to play poker. If you dont like your draw post flop, then why play a worse draw pre-flop?
In the original post, I was playing K9s, DEFINITELY a drawing hand. I had to take the flop with a hand that does not get that many good flops, and even when I hit a pair it is somewhat less than a stellar hand. Top pair is not exactly a powerhouse with a nine kicker. But one of the BEST flops I could hope for with this hand would be a draw to the nut flush! When an unpaired, uncoordinated board comes Ace high and you have K9s and there are two of your suit on board, you now have POSITIVE EQUITY in the pot.
You should be playing poker in a fashion which identifies when you have a positive expectation,then maximize your investment in these situations only, otherwise fold. I have limp-reraised with flush draws MANY TIMES and will continue to do so in the future. I am always looking for these opportunities in multiway pots, whether in early or late position. When I am getting an overlay on my draw, I have no problem raising to get more $$ into the pot. The variance is relatively small compared to the reward. I don't play short on $$, so the small added variance is welcome when I have such a good overlay on a good draw. I would even make this same play with a less than to the nuts flush draw, depending on the circumstances. Variance, Schmariance. Maximize your EV or quit playing good poker and become a calling station.
Dave in Cali
The easiest thing to observe is to see what types of hands people are playing. You will at least see winning hands on the river, and some fish sometimes muck their hands face up. For example, I just sat down at the table the other day and noticed that someone was drawing for a gutshot straight with 25o all the way to the river in a very small pot. Now that's a fish! You can see what people are playing either from the rail or when you first sit down. Another thing to look for that requires more thinking is to see how people are betting their hands. You need to figure out if the table is full of aggressive players or weak calling stations. Also figure out if there are often lots of players who see the flop or only 3 or 4.
Just some of my thoughts. Good luck and play hard!
This is something I noticed that Im not that good at , and pbly mistakely believe I can beat most mid limit tables.
I think you should look for weak players and mistakes. It helps if you can play several games (eg stud and holdem, at different limits).
If you play at casinos often you should know some of the weak players and thus you know some players who you want to play w/. Similarly you should know the good players though I haven't seen too many good players lately!
Good luck!
What do I need to support? That you played the hand well. That's obvious. The twenty post below mine will tell you why. I am just asking why you only post hand you think you played well? Oh I forgot, you're after that golden apple award.
JV, you are a schmuck and completely miss the point. If you actually READ my posts you would see that I also post hands that I played badly or incorrectly. However, I am sick of dealing with you, your posts are certainly not good enough to waste my time on any more. keep up your trash talk, it will only serve to remind me to skip your posts from now on. good riddance. reply all you like I am done with you.
All call to me, I call, SB raises, all call, I reraise, SB caps, all call.
Flop: 10-7-2 rainbow
SB bets, all call, I raise, all call. I put SB on AK or similar (AQ, KQ, etc)
Turn: 3
All check to me, I bet. 6 callers. I am confused.
River: 8 no flush possible
All check to me. I bet, 4 callers.
I show J-10 for top pair. SB shows QQ for overpair. All muck.
I sit there and wonder to myself what everyone was calling with, especially on the river.
David
I think 10Js is just under being worth the reraise, but KQs is good. 10Js makes a lot of straights and you've got the flush possibility too, but the cards are just a bit too small for my taste. I don't think it's a terrible play, but I wouldn't expect to win with it too much. Also, the raise from ths SB should have slowed you down a bit. As far as what everybody else had--third best or worse. At least you'll have them to pay you off when you hit it next time. Some days I spend a good portion of the night building pots for someone else.
when numerous players see the flop and then the flop includes a pair, beware! I don't think reraising on the flop was your best move. would someone on a flush draw raise in that situation with 4 players yet to act? not if he were thinking straight. aces are always hard to lay down, but when UTG bet into two likely overpairs after a quicktrigger raise and reraise on the flop, I'd have figured he wasn't foolin'. had you not reraised on the flop, you could have laid down your aces after seeing the turn card. all in all, you could have saved 3 big bets.
I was hoping that the opposite views expressed by Jim Brier and myself would engender further discussion, but I guess everyone is busy cleaning up after the earthquake.
first of all, I stick by my estimate that when a pair appears in the flop in LLHE and there are 5 or more opponents, someone else will have caught trips or a fullhouse 80-90% of the time (whether there is a pre-flop raise or not). in the above example, it was even more likely that the flop raiser held a 9 (98+% I'd say) AFTER he bet the turn. now while the pot odds justified an investment of a single bigbet, once Remco called the turn and missed, he invested another bigbet to call the river bet for the same reason he called the turn bet (pot was too large not to). so, in essence, he committed himself to a 2-bigbet investment on the turn. and that was not justified.
when there are 6 players who see the flop, that's a total of 12 cards with a potential of matching a card in the flop. since holdings (considered as an aggregate) in low-limit veer towards a random distribution, then there are just about 12 distinct chances of matching one of 13 ranks when the flop includes a pair. I'd like to see someone do the math, but this near one-to-one correspondence is suggestive.
I'm tending to equate raising pre-flop with big slick and seeing a flop devoid of an ace or king to raising pre-flop with a big pair and seeing another pair flop. obviously it's still worse when AA flop when you have KK or QQ than it is if you hold AA and 33 flop, but not by all that much.
Jim Brier is accustomed to games in which a raise tends to downplay the relevance of smallish cards, even when 5 others call the raise. this is not the case in low-limit.
Actually an open pair of Nines is more dangerous than an open pair of Deuces for instance since a Nine is a "playing zone" card. A card in the "playing zone" is a card Ace through Nine since hands containing these cards are what players like to take flops with. So an open pair of Nines would strengthen your argument for not re-raising and subsequently folding. The reason I prefer hanging around is because I have seen so many jammed pots where players are simply betting and raising on come hands (in this case a Spade flush draw) or just overpairs. Now if you had a table full of LOLs or TOMs than you would know with 100% certainity that you were up against trip Nines.
someone on a flush draw normally wants his opponents to stick around (unless he's bluffing, which isn't the case here). in this hand, the raise came with 4 players still to act. therefore I would severely discount the flush draw possibility and all but eliminate it when the flop raiser bet the turn after having capped the betting on the flop. the effect is cumulative.
your point about an open pair of 9's being more threatening than 3's is pertinent. I just think that the discrepancy is much less than in a typical 20-40 or 30-60 game.
to refine my estimate of 80-90% with 5 opponents in LLHE:
when the flop includes AA or KK........ ~95%
when QQ or JJ appear........................ 85-95%
when TT or 99 appear....................... 80-90%
when 88 or 77 appear....................... 77-85%
when 66 or 55 appear...................... 70-80%
when 44, 33, or 22 appear................ 67-75%
adjustments can be made up or down depending upon whether or not opponents had to coldcall a pre-flop raise, whether there are 4 or 6 opponents as opposed to 5, etc., etc.
compare this to a MLHE, when there are 5 opponents:
when the flop includes AA or KK........ 97-100%
when QQ or JJ appear........................ 90-95%
when TT or 99 appear....................... 85-90%
when 88 or 77 appear....................... 75-85%
when 66 or 55 appear...................... 25-45%
when 44, 33, or 22 appear................ 10-25%
I should have specified that "my" hand should be included with the 5 opponents' hands. then, after the flop, subtract ~15% when "my" hand misses the open pair.
as an exercise, set aside a flop with a pair (e.g., 99x), then deal out nine hands from the remaining cards and select the four best hands out of seven plus two random hands (blinds) each time. do this 100 times (the more the merrier) and see how often one of those six hands includes a 9. I will try this within the next day or so and post my results.
prediction: I am empirically biased from my last month of poker sessions in which I rarely saw an open pair not hit someone and will have to lower these estimates by 10-15% across the board. I don't perceive yet that I could be off by more than that.
> I stick by my estimate that when a pair appears in > the flop in LLHE and there are 5 or more opponents, > someone else will have caught trips or a fullhouse > 80-90% of the time (whether there is a pre-flop > raise or not).
5 opponents = 10 cards. 1 - (45/47)^10 = 35% 9 opponents = 18 cards. 1 - (45/47)^18 = 54%
I believe any non-random nature of the starting cards can only lower these estimates, as the higher cards are more likely to be split up among the hands, or there will be low pairs.
Zooey
I'm no professional mathematician (as should be obvious!) but common sense tells me your figures are way off.
you were on the right track.
here's my math (figures are for random combinations):
for a total of 5 players seeing a flop containing any pair, the odds are 1 - (47/49 x 46/48 x ... x 39/41 x 38/40) or 37% that at least one player holds a card of the same rank as the open pair.
for a total of 6 players seeing a flop containing any pair, the odds are 1 - (47/49 x 46/48 x ... x 37/39 x 36/38) or 43.3% that at least one player holds a card of the same rank as the open pair.
for a total of 9 players seeing a flop containing any pair, the odds are 1 - (47/49 x 46/48 x ... x 31/33 x 30/32) or 60.5% that at least one player holds a card of the same rank as the open pair.
Loose So-cal 6-12 Game. I've been playing long enough to know who to respect and who to suspect.
In late position I make a loose call when I'm the 5th one into the pot with 86 of spades.
7 players see the flop of 7 4 7 (with the 4 a spade).
It's checked to me and I bet, thinking: I've got an inside (nut) straight draw and a backdoor (crappy) flush draw. I'm planning to muck if anyone raises with the seven. Everybody calls. The turn brings an 8. Early position bad player who has been semi-steaming bets. Two callers, and I raise, thinking the following: Bettor can't have a seven because he would've raised me on the flop. He can't have a 56 for the straight because he would've bet on the flop. He can't have an overpair because he would have raised before the flop. Blinds fold, the bettor calls, and the other two callers fold. A blank comes on the river, EP checks, I bet, he calls, everybody at the table wants to see my 7, I show down the 86, the EP player fires his cards into the muck. A friend of mine who was sweating me this hand was shaking his head at what he deemed my loose and reckless play. While I agree the initial call before the flop was loose, I'm rather proud of the way I played the rest of the hand and I thought the loose passive tone of the table warranted the initial call.
I'm curious what the regulars here think.
Agree the call with 6-8s is loose; but, you had 4 players in front of you and figure a couple more to call. In theory (I THINK)you can call with all but the worst hands here! In the long-run you can make a small amount with lots of hands--if you play very well after the flop.
The problem with many of those hands you might call with here is you don't know what to do after the flop! The 6-8s tends to either hit the flop or get you out. I see many players regularly play something like K,5s. What do you do with that hand when you flop a K with no flush draw? Most likely you either win small pot right now or go to the river and get beat for several more bets.
You read the hands well and got paid off. I would probably not play the hand though. It doesn't make much money in long-run. Most times you fold after flop. It is not worth the bother. You can probably learn more watching the other players play.
el toro
Your initial pre-flop call was pretty loose, but with lots of callers in a California game, I understand (although I would have mucked it). After that, you got purely lucky, no doubt about it. I don't like the flop bet even as a semi-bluff. Your logic on the turn is flawed. A player holding 56 on the flop would not necessarily bet out. You say a player holding an overpair would have raised pre-flop. Again, not necessarily. There are a lot of middle pairs that would not raise pre-flop. Your raise on the turn is very risky. Betting the river is one of those situations where you will only be called by a better hand, so again I don't like it.
I'm glad you won the hand, but hated the way you played it from start to finish
I think you easily get called w/a worse hand on the river namely any 7!
I think the preflop call is OK. Especially if it is unlikely for the pot to get raised.
I think people who think this is an instant fold preflop w/ 4 in, in late position are too tight.
I don't really liek the bet on the flop w/all these people unless there is a chance you can take it down, and in loose games, with this many players (and from what i here goes on in california) this doesn't happen.
On the turn i like your raise though I think you should think this guy might easily have a 7. THe reason he didn't raise on the flop is he figures no one has anything (maybe he thinks you have pocket pair), and if he raises he will get rid of everyone and he wants to get paid w/his 7. Its odd he didn't go for a check raise but maybe he thought you thought you could maybe steal it, or maybe you have an over pair but will be afraid to bet w/all those calls (afraid of a 7).
I suspect he bets out as he viewed the 8 as a blank, and then just call bc he now thinks you have a full house/ or a better 7.
By the way few things are better than showing down a hand which everyone thinks is terrible. Its better that they don't know what you are doing!
Thanks for the comments. I've only been playing hold 'em for less than a year but I'm still learning. I find reading the posts here valuable.
...about showing down a terrible hand. Now EVERYONE KNOWS that you are loose and reckless, so you can bet your good hands for value more. Of course you can't bluff nearly as much against these opponents, but I think the value bets in LLHE are worth much more than bluffs ever will be.
Later in the game I turned a nut straight (holding KQ) and the betting was capped 4 ways (with two hearts on board) Non-heart rag came on the river, I bet, steamer RAISED me, another player called, I re-raised and got called in both places. Neither of them even had the KQ. For some reason, they didn't believe me when I bet and raised. (steamer had Q8, other called mucked). That 450 dollar pot equalled my profit for the session.
:)
Good job. Make an apparently Magoo play, get caught and win the pot anyway, then have all the "experts" gunning for you when you have the nuts. Then reraise their asses on the river.
Total Genious.
for a reckless loose cannon magoo, such as yourself...
I don't mind the pre-flop call. Genious.
Betting the flop into a seven-way field with an open pair on the board when you have no pair and a gutshot and backdoor 8 high flush draw. I don't like it. Idiot.
On the turn I like your raise, despite the fact that it is probably somewhat ill-conceived and you are most likely out on a limb. But given your logic, I like it anyway. Genious.
River. After both one-bet-callers fold and it is just you and the steamer, I like your bet. I think you had a legitimate value bet here. He had a four most likely and just didn't believe you. On the river you get a genious.
That's 3 geniouses and one idiot. 3-1. Not bad. Yes, you were loose and reckless, but then again, I am once in a while too....
Now to see what the other geniouses think...
Dave in Cali
this 5-10 online game was sort of loose (not super loose though) and i dont have a read on the players involved in this hand so telling me it's plaer dependent wont help here. really appreciate everyone's wise comments. thanks in advance.
early limper limps ($5) middle player raises ($10) sb calls ($8) i Call ($5) limper calls ($5)
*** FLOP *** : [ 3d 7s 5c ] sb Checks i Bet ($5) (i bet out cause i want to see if he raises. if he does i can be fairly certain he has a bigger overpair. is this logic flawed? i figure he'll just call with AK or AQ or something like that.)
limper Calls ($5) raiser Raises ($10) sb Folds i Call ($5) limper Calls ($5)
*** TURN *** [ Jd ] i Check limper Checks raiser Bets ($10) i Fold
what do you think?
I would 3 bet preflop. You should believe you have the best hand this should get rid of the limper at least.
I might also 3 bet the flop if I had just called the flop.
Im just not crazy of your style of play here as you put no pressure on the preflop raiser, and he may just be pushing AK (or even 9's or 8's) too far and then you have made a big mistake. I suspect a few will note he is raising not just you but a limper, but some people will do this w/AK on the flop. Most will check the turn now though but if he knows something about the limper and you (!?) he may just bet the turn as he thinks the pot is big enough to take a shot at it...
full 2/4 PP HE game, I have J9o on the BB, one limper and the SB calls, I check, flop comes J and two lower cards without obvious straight possibilites but all diamonds (my 9 is not a diamond), SB check and I bet out to charge single diamonds and to find out where I am... limper raises and SB folds... my action? (I folded and limper didn't show)
I don't like the bet on the flop. . Sklansky and Malmouth have pointed out in HPFAP ( I think) that your kicker becomes vitally important when your top pair is Jacks or lower, and I have found this to be extremely accurate. My point is that your top pair is not as good as it seems, and I think your fold was good.
In situations like this, I prefer to go for the check raise on the flop as a semi-bluff. It usually either scares everyone off or makes them afraid to bet their hand. If you get re-raised or he raises later, you can make a clean fold.
As an aside, I usually only bet to gain information when I am positive that the information gained will be true. Anyways it was a good fold.
When it's your turn to act after the flop, there are only three small bets in the pot. You've got top pair, lousy kicker against a three-suiter. I think you should've let it go. Let the limper and SB duke it out for your initial $2.
It depends on my read on my opponent as to whether i bet at the flop. With no read, I probably check and fold. If the raiser is loose and agressive, I might check and call. I would do this especially if he is the type to bet top pair with a weak kicker if checked into. By the way, I like David's check raise semi-bluff.
It's not a semi-bluff. A semi-bluff is betting/raising a drawing hand with lots of outs. Your hand is made and has difficulty improving. I think check/folding on the flop is fine. If the turn gets check around, I would venture a bet on the turn if a bland falls.
In The Theory of Poker, David Sklansky defines a semi-bluff as "a bet with a hand which, if called, does not figure to be the best hand at the moment, but has a reasonable chance of outdrawing those hands that initially called it." -HPFAP, Sklansky and Malmouth.
JV, you have a good point. The check-raise on the flop in this situation is not really a semi-bluff, but it does have the same feel. You are betting with a hand that doesn't want any callers, but still has an outside chance of improving to be the best if called.
In general, I am advocating extremely aggresive play in these situations. I feel the check raise maximizes your chance of folding out better hands and facilitates a bluff on the river if the turn and river are both blanks. In fact, I wouldn't recommend a bluff on the river unless the hand had been played aggresively on the flop. It has been my experience that checking and calling in these situations is the most expensive option, and I feel that folding or raising are your only real options.
I get
in early position. Utg limps, I limp, player1 behind me raises, player2 (middle position) cold calls, player3 (late position) calls, BB calls. 12.5 small bets in the pot at this point. I don't have a read on any of these players, but get a loose aggressive vibe from the table.
The flop comes
BB checks, UTG checks, I bet out (bad move?) to see what the raiser will do. He raises, player2 calls two bets, three others fold, I ponder. I figure there to be 17.5 small bets in, with 4 to 8 implied, so I call, hoping for the nine.
Turn comes
and I check. Surprisingly, player1 and player2 both check also! I am baffled. River comes
and I bet out- player1 folds, player2 calls and shows down
to take the pot. Did I overplay this hand?
=
nt
I would not have bet at the flop. 9-9 in most games, imho, is a drawing hand and fit for a raise at a flop with overcards only when it improves to trips. I would probably have checked and folded or called and then checked the turn.
Why did u bet the river?
Did u really expected someone holdin a worst hand than you would call u or someone holdin a better hand than you would fold.???
NO and NO...
Charlie
According to HPFAP, if there is a raise pre-flop you are right to chase with your medium pair in hopes of getting a set. However, I would have just checked and called all the way to the river after not flopping the set. I believe you're getting odds to chase, but unless you're only trying to bluff one person that you know is bluffable, I would not have bet on the end.
My problem with this hand is you hand 99 and then someone raised after you (or with position) You have to believe he has 2 overcards to your pair or a bigger pair.
I think is it basic to call the pre-flop raise.
The flop is not good for your hand. Still, the bet on the flop is a good idea. The problem is now it costs you 2 small bets to see the turn due to the raise. Someone either has a king or a bigger pair. I would have folded here.
Check the turn is correct. The interesting thing is now you have 6 outs to beat one pair. If there was a bet, you had odds to call.
I don't like the river bet because your up against multiple opponents. Unless both of them are on draws, your going to get called by a better hand.
4-8 kill game playing 8-16. Folded to me 2 off the button. I limp with 55, loose aggressive SB calls, weak tight BB calls and calling station with the kill checks. 4 players, 4 small bets in the pot. Flop comes JT5 rainbow. SB calls, BB folds, Killer calls, I raise with my set, all call, 10 small/ 5 big bets now. Turn comes 7, check to me, I bet, SB calls, killer raises! This guy could have made 2 pair or a straight. Hes been overplaying his hands all night and is down about 3 racks. We both call, 11 big bets. River comes a K, no flush, killer bets, we both call. Killer turned over 8,9 off for the straight. Loose aggressive flashes me JT for 2 pair
I figured that I was getting 10-1 on the turn bet hoping that the board would pair. I figured 14 outs to a full house or better. Was I correct to call? Comments welcome.
I think you played it right, but I also think the two pair and openended straightdraw played correctly as well. Outs 3+3+1+3=10 for full house or quads after turn, right?
Thanks for your response. The board was JT57K. I see that I mis-counted the case 5 and included the K in my count. oops!
Your comment about the straight overplaying his hands all night probably make your calls correct.
I think you played this fine. That old saying about "if you don't lose a lot of chips playing a set, you didn't play it right" seems to fit here, especially with the read you had on the guy with the straight.
I dont even think theres a situation u can release a set on the turn...
Charlie
1-2 paradise game, lots of weak players. im in early position with [ Qh Ah ] player right behind me calls next player Raises ($3) and late position cold calls ($3) button caps it $4 everyone calls *** FLOP *** : [ 3h 3s 2d ] capper Checks i Check after me Checks 3 better bets ($1) lp calls ($1) capper Folds i Call ($1) with my backdoor straight and flush draws and overcards. it's a big pot and im thinking i have the odds to do this. am i wrong? player to my left Calls ($1)
*** TURN *** : [ 3h 3s 2d ] [ Ts ] i and the guy to my left check preflop 3 better Bets ($2) other fold i Call ($2) figuring the 3 better doesnt have a 3 and that ill only have to hit one of my cards to win. the chances that im drawing dead (agaisnt a 3, TT, KK, or AA) or to a split pot are made up for buy the huge pot odds. is my thinking here flawed? guy to my left Calls ($2) *** RIVER *** : [ 3h 3s 2d Ts ] [ Tc ] me and guy to my left check. 3 better bets. im thinking i have to call for $2 more cause he may just have an A like me and we'll split the pot which is over $30 by now. what do you think?
1-2 low limit? my guess is u are beat. pocket pair probably not a boat.
preflop there were a total of 3 players who raised. one of them was likely to have a big pair. since you held AQ, the likeliest big pair being held was KK, with JJ several lengths back. and if someone had been raising with JJ and not KK, then there was a distinct possibility of someone else having AK. even though the flop included a pair (see my long post under Remco below for general comments) 3 of the 4 (?) opponents had raised preflop, which means probably none of them held a 3. nonetheless, even if you backdoored your flush there was an increased chance of someone filling up against you with the pair on board.
once you missed picking up the flush draw, you had a borderline call with your likely 3-outer. the river call was understandable, given the relative size of the pot.
the three bettor had a pair of nines. i thought it was interesting that the capper folded on the flop. also strange that all 6 of my outs were good despite it being capped preflop.
mike
It's a marginal call to just see the flop, but I guess the cold-callers, who are trailing worse than you, were giving you odds good enough to see the flop for one BB.
The flop had better give you a straight, a four-flush or trip queens if playable. Trips aces is good, but proceed with caution, someone may have catched their set with for instance, 99. AK fear must also be very real.
From personal experience, I feel that holding AQs (even AKo) in a capped pot pre-flop is not a money making machine at all.
The error of your ways?
Possibly calling the cap pre-flop.
Likely calling the flop bet. Do you chase runner-runner flushes? I chase them, sometimes, with two overcards, but capped pre-flop I'm half expecting that a pair of queens may not be good and that a pair of aces will run into kicker trouble.
Definitely calling the turn bet. But having a hard time realising over-cards is something even mid-limit players struggle to do. In low-limit particularly, frequent chasing of over-cards and over-cards only (semi-outs, like a three to a flush and three to a broadway straight change the situation a bit). In 'Any Ace' games, you will frequently meet two pair when you make yours.
Calling the river is actually automatic after your poor play so far in this pot.
lars
Calling before the flop is a mistake. You have 3 people who have raised. One of them (at least) should have AK and one should have a big pocket pair. You will probably need a flush or a str8 to win this pot.
What I find interesting after the flop is you fell into a common mistake of new players of putting the bettor on a hand you can beat. He probably has a pair so if I hit my A or Q I'm good. What if he has AA? Now on the river you switch your read to he only has an ace so I have to call.
The action before the flop screamed AA/KK. You missed the flop and you should have gotten out then (if not before). Chasing runner/runner is going to cost you a lot of money.
1-2 paradise im in the bb with [ 4h 3h ] utg Raises ($2) 3 more people and the SB call, i would normally fold but im getting good odds for one small bet more. dont you think? so i Call ($1)
*** FLOP *** : [ 4c 6d Tc ] sb and i check everyone calls and i decide to call. im getting like 25 to 1, although 3 of clubs is not an out. i have a backdoor gutshot straight too.
*** TURN *** : [ 4c 6d Tc ] [ 3s ] i bet right out with two pair and 3 players call. should i have went for a check raise here?
*** RIVER *** : [ 4c 6d Tc 3s ] [ 9s ] i bet and preflop raiser called
*** SUMMARY *** Pot: $28 | Rake: $ i collected $28, net +$21
M: "1-2 paradise im in the bb with [ 4h 3h ] utg Raises ($2) 3 more people and the SB call, i would normally fold but im getting good odds for one small bet more. dont you think? so i Call ($1)"
The call is a loser preflop but has the potential of losing large after the flop if misplayed and that's the real danger. A fold is right.
M: "*** FLOP *** : [ 4c 6d Tc ] sb and i check everyone calls and i decide to call. im getting like 25 to 1, although 3 of clubs is not an out. i have a backdoor gutshot straight too."
I count 17-1(6*2+5) on the call, not 25-1. You have pontentially 5 outs. As you mention, the 3 is a flush card so that cuts down that out a bit. Secondly, your outs are not at all strong. They have plenty of redraws (that is hands that could beat them on the river even if you are lucky to hit on the turn) against them as well as hands that could have them almost drawing dead (like trips or 46 suited). To put it plainly your draw is very weak.
Regarding your backdoor straight, it is virtually worthless as a consideration (although it is wise to look for this potential as it does often lend strength to a hand). You must remember that the straigt would be the low end, there is already a two flush as well. For example, if you held AT and the flop comes 8 9 3, your backdoor straight is stronger (a seven or jack give you open ended to a strong straight).
M"*** TURN *** : [ 4c 6d Tc ] [ 3s ] i bet right out with two pair and 3 players call. should i have went for a check raise here? "
There is never a clear answer to this. The position of the raiser to you is important. Since he is on your left, it is usually better to bet into him (and his raising you isn't necessarily a bad thing as it drives out some players). I don't believe your hand is that strong and thinning the field might help your hand.
Glad you won.
Overall comment: It depends why you are playing. If you are trying to improve to win money at eventually higher limits, you must first learn to be technically sound. This means correctly identifying odds, positional play and lots of other factors. The call preflop was a small technical error, and should be folded. Knowing what actually odds you have on the flop and beyond (or darn close), is vital to successful play. Identifying the strength of your hand vis a vis the flop is important as well.
You will fare better if you fold that hand, and don't chase bottom pair with that board.
Regards.
I agree with most of what backdoor posted, but I would like to add this. With a hand like 3h4h, you have two ways to win: a straight, and a flush. If there had been a bet on the flop, you would have had to fold. Also, with the texture of that board and the number of players in the pot, a check raise is a bad idea regardless of where the pre-flop raiser is. I like the bet on the turn.
I actually wouldn't mind flopping two pair either.
Lately I've lost quite a few pots to higher flushes, and in the $1-2 family pots I don't know what I'd be more content with: Flopping two pair, treys and fours or a four-flush.
Two pair will often hold up even at low limits except if obvious scare cards fall, and that won't happen every time. I won a pot of nearly 20 BB's at $1-2 online with two pair 7's and 6's after the flop came 6-7-9 two spades. I was a bit surprised myself that it held up, after a third spade hit on the river.
I don't really mind playing top pair w/kicker or two pair at low limits when it's obvious that all others are a dog to me, but of course with many outs put together. The outs will rarely be so many that not a large chunk of each dollar going in these pots are virtually going straight into my pocket.
lars
lars
I have followed your posts with much interest for the last few months. A tip of the hat to you. you seem to be very knowledgeble about the game of Hold-em. I have been dabbling in hold-em for a few years and I have a question or two for you. If you would contact me at MilLrry@aol.com,I would enjoy chatting with you for a few minutes.
.
2/4 PP HE game full table no reads on the players involved
folded to me in the cutoff, I raise w/ A6o attempting to steal the blinds (probably a bad move, but that's not my question), button folds, blinds call
flop comes 344 rainbow... blinds check and I check turn is an A, one blind bets out, I don't remember which one, I call, and the other blind folds (or he already folded)
river is an A giving me aces full... blind bets out and I raise... blind reraises... the only hand that beats me is quad fours which is very unlikely... but it's also very unlikely that he would raise with just a four or weaker, what's my action? (it's Paradise so if I raise again it's capped... also, I think the rake will be $2 no matter what)
reraise, even if paradise love quads...
And since u ask this question, i guess he had the quad fours lol
Sorry
Raise! You don't know the players involved, and the odds of the other player having a hanf that can beat you are miniscule. Make the other player pay the rake.
I would re-raise. I've been shown the 4 too often to slow down after 3 bets. If it was not capped I would just call if he raised again. I would also just call after his 3bet if the board was A-A-4-3-3 instead of 4-4.
Gosh, that reminds me of a dandy last Sunday...
4-8HE at Harrah's East Chicago. In the BB with J6o. 3 limpers and me take the flop of J85 rainbow
I check cause of my kicker, EP fish checks, MP solid bets, fold, I call (think MP is buying it), and EP fish calls.
Turn 5 (J855)
Perfect card for a semi bluff from the blind right? So, I bet out. EP Fish puts about 10 $1 chips past the line and goes back for more when the call of "STRING BET" comes from everyone else and EF is forced to only call and Im resigned to dumping my Jack on the river to his obvious set. After that.. the MP player calls anyway (notice I dropped the solid moniker that time).
River J (J855J) Woo Hoo!
I bet.. EF now raises! Correctly this time. MP now calls! I laugh out loud as I have to figure MP for the other Jack and this EF cannot be a EsuperF with only a 5 could he be? He was shaking when he made that raise on the river... HE MUST HAVE PRESTO!
Sigh.. I can't believe I'm going to just call here.
"I call"
They both flip over a five and I take down a pot that seems to be about $32 light.
DUH! :)
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
Too bad I didn't make this post before I had that hand. I just called and he indeed showed me a 4 and I took down a nice pot (but one BB too short).
I'm in late middle position with QQ. UTG limps, I raise, both blind call, UTG calls.
Flop 9 K 6 (two diamonds; i have a diamond queen)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, I decide to raise to try to get the SB out and to see where i stand. I also might get a free card if i want to. Everybody calls.
Turn: rag (no diamond)
Everyone checks and i decide to check also, because since everyone called my raise i assume that a king is out there and i wont get a flush draw to fold.
River is a diamond. SB bets out, everyone calls, i fold.
Comments on my play?
Sounds like a good fold to me. With a bettor and two callers on a board with 3 diamonds and an overcard to your queens, I just don't see how you could have called. I like your raise on the flop to try to find out where you stand and also to try to get a free card. Once all three players call the 2 bets, you can be fairly sure that at least one player has a king. Good fold and wait for the next opportunity to capitalize with a premium hand.
Good luck and play hard!
That is the way is play these situation too, and with OK success.
If nobody else calls the river bettor, it's an automatic call. Half the reason you raise the flop is to get to see his hand for 4/5 of the price it would usually cost you (2BB instead of 2.5BB).
There will also be times when you catch your set on the river, and believe me, nothing is sweeter than that! :-)
I really think there's no other way to play 'em.
lars
Layed down an overpair to the board before the showdown heads-up or three-way mainly based on the belief that someone else got a HIGHER pocket pair (in other words, not a too scary board)?
How high overpairs have you folded and what have your experiences been like?
lars
I don't recall ever folding an overpair on a non-scary board heads-up (lots of raising in a multi-way pot I might fold if I really believe someone has two pair or a set). Like flopping a set, I think you have misplayed an overpair heads up if you don't lose a lot of money. I certainly might slow down and check-call to the river but probably never lay down. (Personally, I've been on both sides of AA vs. KK and when I'm in the pot the aces win lots of money (for heads-up) almost every time).
Against one particular player I would. But if you look up rock in the dictionary you'll see his picture.
Against online players at my limits (upto 3-6)? Never...
Sincerly, Andreas
The reason I am asking is that a friend of me just lost with QQ at $10/20, facing BOTH KK and AA.
Of course capped multiway pre-flop (QQ actually raised and capped). It was capped on the flop too (3-3-8).
Just one bet on the turn I think, and one on the river as well.
I think he overplayed it pre-flop, and would've had an easier lay-down on the flop if raised and re-raised to him, if only three-betted pre-flop.
lars
3 way with QQ is a different story, but it is highly game dependent... I have seen people take down pots that were capped pre-flop with hands like 64s... but in a tight-aggressive game with only queens and two opponents I would certainly slow down with queens and maybe even throw them away if there was too much heat on the flop, but only if both opponents stayed in... once it's capped on the flop he almost had to go to the river with odds to draw to his set, but I think the capping pre-flop with queens is questionable... I'll three-bet with queens (and jacks and AKs) any day, but I don't recall ever four-betting or calling a four-bet without kings or aces
For single bets heads up i will call with any pocket pair that is higher than the board. 3 way with raises and reraises is a different story, then it becomes more player dependent.
Yes all the time. I have a tight image and the laydown isn't that difficult. If I raise preflop with JJ and get 3 bet by a good player, it's a good bet I'm beat. Now if the flop comes rags and I bet out and get raised I'm beat 98% of the time. I'll lay it down right there usually. If the player is deceptive I'll call and force him to bet the turn.
I got roasted here a few months ago for laying down QQ pre-flop in the BB against a rock's raise. My read was right though as he had AA.
I managed to lay down pocket J's recently against K's. On the whole I wish I could do this sort of thing more often because my biggest leak by far is that I won't lay down when I should. Its almost amusing how I trust my 'reads' completely when I read that I am winning the hand, but when I read that someone has me beat I suddenly start mistrusting my judgement !!
This interesting hand came up in a 10$ Paradise tourney today...
I'm in the BB with pocket tens. UTG limps, all fold to SB who calls. I feel I have the best hand here and pop it. Both call.
Flop is J63, suits not important, SB checks, I feel that UTG might have a jack (A hand like A-J suited) but I bet anyway, UTG calls and SB folds.
Turn is a Q, QJ63 board, I'm thinking that he doesn't have a J since he didn't raise me on the flop. Still the Q is scary but I bet anyway. UTG calls.
River is a K, KQJ63 board. I check, UTG bets, I payoff his KQo.
Beside the river payoff (which is bad at best), my take on the hand is that the preflop raise cost me the pot. With only 4:1 odds on the flop he probably wouldn't have chased me with only overcards. But with the raise he's getting a yummy 7:1 and this makes his call correct.
All comments welcome.
Sincerly, Andreas
I don't think it would've made a difference. UTG is the last to act with only the blinds remaining. K-Q is a good call, raised or not.
In theory I agree but I think you are giving too much credit in a $10 tourney. Consider his hand, do you really think he would have folded a KQ if there was no raise >? if so at what point ?
Everything you say is probably true, just as it would be true if you held AA, but it hardly suggests that you shouldn't have raised before the flop. Unless your two opponents play unusually tight or tricky, their most likely hands are (1) two pairs of different overcards, where you are virtually 1/3 break-even (in a cold simulation) on your raise; (2) overcards and an underpair, where you are substantially better than a 1/3 favorite, (3) other hands where you are a substanial favorite, such as two underpairs or an underpair and one overcard or any hand with a ten. Cold sims are crude indicators, but you can look at it this way also: when your opponents don't have overpairs, pocket tens are will up the list of profitable hands, and become more profitable, as a rule, when you raise limpers with them.
Although the extra preflop money might induce a player to correctly call later, remember that some of the pot amounts to money he put in as a preflop underdog, so that his marginally correct call on the turn is offset to a certain extent by his negative play before the flop.
That being said, it might have made sense given the specific tournament situation for you to limit your upside in order to limit your risk. Instead of checking before the flop, however, I think the better way would have been to play more cautiously after the flop and to have check-folded on the turn when the second overcard hit.
Lets just assume that the dealer is average to good and not some idiot ball they just pulled off the street. What do you normally tip them. At what point when the pot is a certian size do u increaase tips? I ussually do a dollar or 2 dollars for a large pot. I have noticed however that most people tip 50 cents not matter what the pot size and I am wondering if I should do the same since the tips do add over time. I play 3-6 holdem and 1-5 stud are the games that I am reffering to.
To be honest with you i hardly ever tip, maybe once a day i give a dollar. When i used to play 3-6 i never tipped and ill tell you why, we try to averege 2bb an hour and if i tip once or twice an hour im giving awey my advantige. The other thing that i have noticed is that in the higher limits the tips get smaller, and i have also noticed is that, the players that i consider to be good tip alot less then the bad players
ss
I would tip at the end of their time at your table. Of course, this assumes you won over their 30 minute time in the box. $1 or $2 is a good amount. If you lose, don't tip.
If you frequent a low limit cardroom, you will get a reputation as a stiff and an asshole if you never tip. Perhaps this doesn't concern you. Personally however I play better when I am comfortable, which includes feeling welcome in the cardroom and being able to chat with some of the dealers. You lose a lot of profit with the absurd rakes and tips but this is just part of the scene. The house provides the game and the steady stream of suckers which allows you to make money with very little financial risk (assuming you can play). You should be willing to pay fairly for this opportunity.
50 cents is my standard tip. Despite the fact that suckers and tourists often tip more, the dealers appreciate this from regular local players since they know that you're trying to make money. If the pot is less than 10 dollars, no tip. Large pots perhaps a dollar, and monster pots maybe two dollars. Remember that you do not tip more just because the pot is larger, but because the rake stopped after it got to a certain amount.
If you play at the same place fairly often and do not tip at all the dealers and some of the players will be fairly hostile towards you. If this is your goal then do not tip.
Personaly i ussualy tip .50 on a small pot 1$ on a decent pot, and 2$ on a very large pot.
I did not say never tip.
q
yes it does matter were you play were i play the dealers are no good...there is only one or two good dealers.. the rake is 10% up to 5 dollars i would tip more often when the dealers are good but they are not and besides what do i care what people think, if you do then youre playing the wrong game.
In a 6 hour shift, win or loose i wont tip more then 4 dollars, the waitress though is a different story
When I am winning I tip more often. I tip a $ 1.00 generally, these days. I feel that if I tip $ 0.50 I am only saving $ 0.50, and those $ 0.50 I don't save are not going to put me in the soup line. I *had* problems with tipping, and I brought the subject to this forum before. I received a lot of help and some criticism for it. I feel more comfortable when I tip. Is my personality, I guess. Tipping is like taxes. Those that don't tip, are like those that don't pay taxes, but they like to enjoy the benefits of using all publics services that are paid by taxes. Like schools, roads, police, etc. I look at it this way, if I don't make enough at the tables to pay for the gas my car uses to get to the casino, insurance, wear and tear, tipping, and any other expences related to my poker, then I shouldn't be playing poker. I see people not tipping the waiters in the buffets. I feel a dollar per person is the minimun for the service of bringing the drinks. I see these people waiting until the waiter goes out of sight to hurryingly leave without tipping. These people usually bring an extra bag, with plastic bags, to take food home. They take meat and cakes, and rolls, and more. If you are one of these people, you will not tip. Years back I used to work with a guy that if he will call home from the public telephone at work, it will cost him 15 cents a call. But just one block away the same call was 10 cents, because of a change of zone. For many years he walked that one block to save those 5 cents. I don't think he would be a big tipper at any poker table. If you go across the street to fill up because regular gas is 2 cents lower, you are not a big tipper. I observe players in a $ 100-200 games not tipping at all, and I saw a guy change $ 20.00 in a $2-4 game the other day, tip $ 1.00 each time he won a hand, until he went broke. I am not a racist, but I like to add, that he was black and dress like a homeless. This tipping thing is an honor thing. I noticed players that don't tip when they should, they look away from the dealer, and have a very sick expression in their faces, they look very guilty. In most of the games I play, everybody tip a dollar, automatically. Do you want to be the one that tips 0.50 cents? Be my guest. Would you go to a Pub and say: a glass of milk, please, that is all I drink? You see a lady changing a tire on the side of the road: what do you do? Do you stop or you keep driving? Would you have to ask this forum what to do? When you are in the Supermarket, there is a long line and you are last, when a new cashier opens, do you rush to be first, or you let the people ahead of you go first, because they were there before you? Would you have to ask this forum what to do? I was seating at the #2 seat HE game the other night. When #8 pos. got his card, it flashed just a little. I didn't see exactly what it was, but it was a picture card. I asked the dealer to turn the card up, and he did. The person next to me, #3, asked me how could I tell what it was. I said I couldn't, then he told me I was "too honest". He saw the card, like I did, but for him the correct way of action was not to say anything about it. I don't worry about what people think about me at the poker table, I worry what I think about me, myself. By being this way I don't think I am at the wrong game. One day I was standing next to this guy at the crap table, and I was wearing a tie and jacket outfit, just normal stuff. Out of no where he said to me: Do you get all dressed up for a joint like this? I told him: I get dress this way for me, not for this joint. I get alarmed when I see statements like: "what do I care what people think". But, I understand. When we have and unelected President, when our Supreme Court went political on us, just like any Third World country, I understand. When it was time for "Justice" Thomas to pay back the favor, I understand. What you tip, and what you do, is all up to you. And I am a sinner. P/s: forgive phrasing and spelling.
You'll tip the waitresses but not the dealers?! I guess if the dealers had big tits and little outfits you'd tip them too! It is guys like you who give poker players a bad name, and I spent enough time around casinos to know many poker players are known as not nice people.
Yes, I know about fighting the rake, jackpot drop and toke rate, but we are all fighting it, and most of us manage to tip. The dealers are providing a service, just like the cocktail waitress, as such, they should be tipped. It is in a very large part how they make their living.
I don't believe in tipping for bad service, and I don't over tip. I think the concensous here is between $.50 and $2.00 in most low limit games, and that should be sufficent.
You don't care what anybody thinks about you, so this probably won't phase you, but the truth is the truth.
Fitz
Tipping is necessary if you want a friendly relationship with dealers. THIS IS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!
Most places I play don't break dollars:
I tip one dollar when pot is over $20.
Would only tip more for larger pots if I know dealers get to keep their own tips.
Hey dorrex? You sit there and blow smoke in their faces too? Do you ever feel like the other players are ganging up on you? They are. You deserve it, too.
aa
cc
Hi Aaron!
I deal poker at a Midwest casino where dealers cannot by law keep their own tips, which works to the disadvantage of both players and dealers. There are dealers who would be lucky to average a dollar in a half hour and highly efficient ones who could make a great living.
Dealers are paid a subminimum wage and depend on tips for most of their livelihood.
Each person has their own comfort zone when it comes to tipping. I'm sure it depends on the region you are playing in as well. California, for instance, is a much more expensive place to live, and tips are assumably larger.
Here in the midwest when I play, I will usually tip $1 for a decent pot, rarely $2 (even for big pots--the dealer did not affect the size of the pot or cause you to win...). I have tipped up to $15 before (1-5 stud of all games), but of course she was cute.
My first time playing in a casino was on a 1-5 stud table and I won my first hand with a full house and scooped a large pot. As the dealer started the next hand, she was really pissed off and I didn't know why until someone let me know I should tip. Dealers who act like that don't deserve to be tipped. Players have different reasons for not tipping and I generally do not keep tabs on who is tipping and who isn't. Of course, I really appreciate the tips--it's the best way I can tell if I'm doing a good job.
It is true that the better players will generally tip less than the poor players. After all, the better players are more serious about their play and are trying to turn a profit. The casual players are more free with their money, as they are mainly there for a good time.
So you need to find your own comfort level. I would recommend basing your tips on:
1. Dealer efficiency
2. Dealer friendliness (to some extent...dealers can be too friendly and lose track of the game)
3. What other players are tipping--if other players are being generous with their tips, the dealer is making decent money already and you can afford to cut back a little on your tips. When tipping is sparse (and requirements 1+2 above are satisfied), the dealer will really appreciate an above average tip.
And, dealers do seem to appreciate a bit of a tip when you leave, even if it's only a spare 2 or 3 dollars.
10-handed game, i'm in the BB with 87o. Two people limp in, i check.
Flop: Q 8 7 (two clubs, i have none)
I decide to go for a check-raise. But i really doubt if this is a good action with only three people in, because the last thing i would like to do is give a free card. Anyway i checked (anybody agrees with a check; btw my opponents where just decent players, not overly aggressive or something) and it gets checked around (BAH!).
Turn: T (third suit)
Now i bet out, and get one caller.
River: 6 (no club)
I decide to bet out (??), get raised and paid his K9o off.
whether to check-raise or bet out with two pair is I find one of the hardest decisions in LL HE... free cards can be deadly (as you observed first hand) but if played correctly you can extract almost endless ammounts of money from people with top pair/good kicker... one of the major leaks in average low limit players' games is that they over value top pair (I think anyway)... I've seen people do things like check the flop and then three bet when it came back to them with top pair second kicker...
in your case I would probably bet the flop because it will take a long time for your opponents to give you credit for two pair and they will probably call to the river anyway with nothing, stay tight
When going for a check-raise it's important to think that someone will bet. With 2 passive players involved it was a mistake to check. If there had been more players or an aggresive player in the hand then I like your play.
You should not have called the raise on the river. Either check and call or bet and fold.
Bet. Bet. Bet.
Here's another one. I have AA in early MP. Folded to me, i raise. Two callers, plus BB.
Flop: A A 8 (two heards) WOW!!!!
BB checks, i check, player after me checks button bets. BB folds, i call, player after me folds (bah)
Turn: rag (cant remember what)
I check, he bets, i call. I do this because i think if i raise him here he probably would fold (the only thing he calls with is maybe flush draw or an eight or a pocket pair in his hand). Further i hope that by playing it like this i can induce a bluff (or semi-bluff) on the river, by checking the river and then check raise him.
River: Q (no heart)
I check, he checks behind me. Did i play this correctly or forgot i to collect some additional bets?
quad aces and all you managed to extract was 4.5 BB... you must suck! just kidding
one of the things about poker to remember is that your goal is not to have great hands (as many fish seem to think) but simply to have better hands than your opponents at the showdown, if there is one
slowplaying is almost never correct at LL HE, for two reasons...
if you slowplay something like two pair or a set you are very likely to get run over by a straight or flush and you don't hit your house often enough to be worth it, you simply cannot afford to give free cards in LL HE so bet you great hands all the way (and you'll probably have to pay off as well, but at least you charged them for it)
if you slowplay something like flopped quad aces you are probably losing bets as well... LL HE players have very little respect for check-raises and although they notice them they don't phase them as much as they phase skilled players... just bet you hand all the way and be prepared to win only a small pot... again, measure success by how much you win, not by how much you win with monsters (I've made a lot more money off top pair top kicker than quad anything)... the reason to just bet your quad aces is LL HE players like draws almost as much as actual hands so they're more likely to pay you off earlier than on the river when they've missed
good skill, stay tight
Ofcourse I understand that my profit comes from other hands than this one, but my only question here is if i missed some bets. I've heard your story everytime, that LL players never fold, and in some cases it's true, but in $5-10 where i played it's not just betting out and they will pay you off. In this case the situation was very bad. I had a monster and the rest simply could not have a very good hand. So the only way for me to extract money in this pot is to induce bluffing IMHO. If i had bet it all the way i think i would have lost them on the turn, and so i would have lost some big bets.
You definitely should have bet the river.
ABSOLUTELY you should have bet the river. Your opponent is just as likely to suspect a bluff as you are, and is very likely going to call. As it is you didn't even force him to make the decision and lost a big bet.
last time I posted I asked about how many bets to put in on the river with the almost nuts (A with AA443 on the board so only 44 beats me), I ran into another river dilema recently but this time more marginal, comments appreciated:
2/4 PP HE game full handed, just sat down so no reads on other players and they probably don't have reads on me
I post in the cutoff and get 8c5c, guy two in front of me limps, I check, button rasises, blinds fold, limper calls, I call (getting 6.5:1 on the call) 3 players, $15
flop comes Ac3h4c, limper checks, I value bet my flush draw and gut shot and maybe picking up the pot right there, raiser folds limper calls,
turn is Qd, check, check
river is Kc giving me my flush... limper bets and I, of course, raise... limper reraises... my action?
Without a read on the players I don't raise on the river with an 8 high flush. He likely has a flush as I'm sure there would have been more action if he flopped a str8 or had AK/AQ. Now that he's re-raised I call and expect to be beaten.
Without a read on the players I don't raise on the river with an 8 high flush. He likely has a flush as I'm sure there would have been more action if he flopped a str8 or had AK/AQ. Now that he's re-raised I call and expect to be beaten.
Heads up I would have bet the turn with my str8 draw flush draw. This would have clarified the river better.
I would respect the re raise here, when you have no read on people you have to assume they're typical, I beleive I read that somewhere, so I call, why reraise for one bet when you can easily be beat. The only thing that tells me that he may not have a flush is that both the A and K are out and he didn't bet the turn when the Q hit, so I would assume that there's only three cards that can beat your flush, that being the J,10 or 9, so what did he have 7-2c and you eaked him out ?
I just called the bet and ended up taking down the pot when the three-bettor showed JTs (not clubs) for the nut straight
This is an atypical outcome. Like Winger, I still think the raise on the river is a loser. You just happened to be playing against a complete fool. Almost every time two players go into the river heads up, and then get into a bet/raise/re-raise scenario when the river brings the draw, both players hit the same flush OR straight. It is a rare player that will three bet the straight when it also brings the flush in through the front door.
Loose passive 4-8 game. I post in the cutoff behind the button and get dealt 6s3s. 5 see the flop with no raise, button folded.
Flop is 3 3 3. SB and BB check, next player bets, next player folds. Raising these players here will certainly NOT do anything to increase the size of the pot for me. I just call. BB calls, 3 see the turn.
Turn is the Ad. BB checks, next player bets, I just call again. BB calls. Although I want to raise, I think that going for the overcall here will make the pot bigger than raising will. A raise may make them both fold, but the river might give them something that they will think is a monster. I am hoping for another ace on the river!
River is trashola.... They both check and I bet. BB folds and other player calls. I show my quads and he folds pocket 99 face up.
I was discussing this situation in a post a week or two ago, and I said that if I flopped quads in early position I would bet out. DAMN, too bad I wasn't the BB, because that's exactly what I would have done. They would never suspect a thing.....
Comments welcome
Dave in Cali
yeah i flopped 6 6 6 with a6o in the bb. i checked the flop, checkraised turn and bet river. not sure wut else to do either.
actually i would be more suspicious of any hand containing a 6 from the blinds, in general, but i guess since you posted, it is about the same...gl
I agree, I would suspect the blind way more than Dave' position.
I would have played it the same as Dave, hey you had customers and if a good card flopped on the river you probably would have gotten more action.
Silly hand.
Beginner
you didn't like it when the other players talked trash over your post. why are you putting such an inane and useless comment on mine? Perhaps the hand WAS silly, but you didn't say WHY. therefore it is trash talk and will be treated as such. I felt that legitimate points were raised here and until you prove differently I will not change my opinion.
Dave in Cali
"A {turn} raise may make them both fold, but the river might give them something that they will think is a monster. I am hoping for another ace on the river!
With a board of 333A, there can be no card coming off on the river that will make anyone think they have a monster - not even another Ace.
The flop smoothcall is obviously correct. The turn smoothcall is more debatable. I would have thought that the bb could not call even one bet without an Ace and if he did have an Ace, he almost surely would call even two bets. In other words, I think you ought to have raised on the turn. On the other hand, if the bb is a real bad player who would chase for one bet on the turn with a hand like 77 or whatever, then maybe you did play it right.
N.T.
Personally if I'm not in the blinds, i bet that outright till an overcard hits. The blinds are suspect of the quads, u aren't. When the Ace hits and u stop betting to let others bet u are saying, "whoops my small pair, or K high is no good", at this point you are hoping someone will catch the hint and try to bluff the A.
My opinion, I may be overthinking this :)
10 handed 2/4 game. I hold QQ in BB. UTG limps, EP raises MP cold calls, button (maniac) cold calls, i three bet, UTG folds, EP caps and the rest calls.
So 4 handed and 17 small bets in the pot.
Flop: J 8 4 (two clubs, i hold none)
I bet out, everyone calls. Hmmm... with two clubs on the table i would suspect the EP capper would have raised AA and KK, even QQ and JJ i think. So i put him on a big overcards atm, like AK or AQ, maybe AJ. Maniac could have anything and i dont know about MP, maybe a flush-draw or also just overcards or a weaker jack.
Turn is a rag (no club). I bet out again, because i dont want to give a free card away and i might get a lot of information when EP raises me. Then i would assume he's on a big overpair or a set.
So i bet out, and again everyone calls. Hard to say, but i figure my QQ is still good, although i'm still not quite sure about the EP, because i dont know if he would cap AKs or AQs pre-flop. I'm almost certain that MP has a flush draw or a weaker pair, and i have the maniac beat also.
River: Kh
Ouch.. If i were correct about the EP that he was having overcards, then there's a good chance he hit them now. So i check.
EP bets (sigh), MP mucks, maniac calls, and i make a crying call(?).
He shows AA. Is this just very weak play from EP, because he should have raised flop or turn to let the draws pay? And could i have played this hand diffently?Any other comments?
The EP having AA shocks me. KK is possible if he fears aces or he might even have the other queens, but just calling with aces on a two club flop with 17 bets in is suicide IMO. Even if he raises clubs have odds to draw and the button souds like he'd call with almost anything... I think you played it fine and although some might critisize the river overcall with a pot that big you can't lay down... sorry the aces didn't blast you off like they were "supposed to"
If you assign him almost any of the early position pre-flop raising holds, then he's got your number on the river. TT, 99, AQs, AQo, and AJs (and maybe AJo) are the only pre-flop raising hands you can beat, and many players don't even raise pre-flop with these hands. Your instincts were right on the flop, if the Ace or King comes you should fold. I think you could have let this one go when he bets into you on the river.
I hold 5c 8c in the big blind and I limp in heads up. Flop comes Kc Qc 5h. Is it right to bet out or should I check or raise for value?. I bet out and got raised, I called and turn came a club to make my flush. Was wondering afterwards if it would have been correct to reraise for value or not. I don't think it would be because the pot odds were not good being heads up and all.
Generally you can push your hands harder headsup. If my opponent is able to lay a hand down, I would either re-raise the flop or check-raise the turn (assuming I missed on thee turn). Since you hit on the turn, you bet out.
You have 14 outs. Plus you likely already have the best hand. Play it very hard. I would cap it on the flop if it was me, then lead teh turn.
nt
My, you ARE an aggressive one, Joe. Nothing wrong with it against mediocre opposition. But you DO realize that good players can and WILL counter, right?
Exactly what are good players going to counter with?
Good players will put moves on you heads up. Its these players you WANT to press hard against, because its likely you have the best hand and you are taking control of the hand away from them.
So bet into the good players, hope he raises you, and pop him back. If he re-raises, call. Then fire into him on the turn.
Weak players will lay down hands they shouldnt when you get aggresive with them, which is also a good thing. I would go for the check-raise, unles you think he wont bet then I would definitely not give out free cards.
Its the mediocre opponents that you dont want to press hard against. They will call you down with all hands that beat you, and fold all hands that dont. So play it straight up. Bet into him, if he raises, call. Then check call all they way unless you improve.
A pair is a powerful hand heads up, but you have a great draw to go with it. So use it.
Joe-
I see nothing wrong with playing in this fashion. It's just that this is the second thread where I'm seeing you recommend a blanket aggressive strategy in a situation which might not be clear to the poster. The poster was 3-bet on a board of KQ5 and this is the 2nd time I am seeing you want to automatically bet and raise your way to victory assuming your hand is good without any thoughts of slowing down. (see "A heads up Hand" in medium stakes)
All I'm saying is that if you commonly overplay your hands and/or draws good players will quickly adjust to you. After our discussion in "A heads up Hand", it might very well have cost you $320.00 to draw to this hand had you been in my game and I your opponent. Consider also that there would be times you'd spike an 8 or hit your flush only to lose additional money.
Duck
With a pair and a flush draw you are statistically even money with somebody that has a K or Q or a pair between 66 and AA. But he may not even have a K or a Q, so this puts you as the favorite to win the hand. And if he has a Q or a pocket pair below QQ then you might can get him to lay down because he has to fear a K or a Q from you just because you pushed the flop when you were a favorite.
So, why in the hell wouldn't you push the flop? They can't fold if you dont give them the chance. The odds are they won't fold, but who cares? Your not giving up any EV by doing it, and if they do fold great.
Its the same theory as semi-bluffing. You dont have the best hand, but you gain more EV by betting than you do by calling or folding. Except in this case you might actually have the best hand.
Lets do some math. If your beat at this point by a pair, then your about even money to win the hand. But hey could have a set or two pair, and he could draw out on your two pair, so lets say the odds of you ending up winning if your ahead are 40% if you check call the whole way. Lets say that there is a 15% chance you have the best hand.
So now you have a .85*.4 + .15 = 49% chance of ending up the winner. Great, so its definitely EV to call the guy down.
But lets say there is a 20% chance he will lay his hand down (say he has 66-JJ, or a Q) if you play some flop games with him. Now you go to a .85*.6 + .15 = 66% chance of ending up the winner.
You just increased your chances of winning by 1/3. That is huge! If there is 10 SBs in the pot, that is over 3 SBs by just pushing your edge. And all you had to do was push hard on the flop when you were a statistical favorite anyway! So now I ask you, why would you NOT play flop games?
Another 3 points, (1) by pushing hard he cant put any moves on you, and (2) if the turn is a blank he wont value raise you now, and that is important because now you went from a statistical favorite to a big dog, and (3) if people catch you putting moves on you can thin value bet them in the future and they will pay off.
PS - I am not betting and raising my way to victory. I am pushing small edges, which in turn INCREASES my chances of ending up with the best hand. I am not saying he is going to lay down the hand, but there is a small chance. And that small chance can make it very profitable to push small edges.
And as for the short handed post you mentioned. The same thing applies there. There are going to be many times your going to miss and the guy shows you a better hand. Those are the breaks. But going around dropping second or even third pair heads-up pre-flop is insane. There are going to be a lot of times you get shown a better hand, but there are going to be many more times you can thin value bet or even raise 2nd and 3rd pair. Or even flat out steal.
Ran some simulations, and he is actually a statistical favorite on the flop against every had except KQ, KK or QQ. And he isnt much of a dog to KQ. And the odds of the other guy having those exact hands are extremely low. So even if you know the guy will never fold its to your advantage to push the flop very, very hard.
"With a pair and a flush draw you are statistically even money with somebody that has a K or Q or a pair between 66 and AA. "
I have no quibble with this. Also, I haven't proofed it, but your math further down seems fine. If anything you are probably slightly better than even money against some of these hands.
"But he may not even have a K or a Q,..."
Now here's the same merry-go-round which to be honest, I'm not sure I want to ride again. My initial response was only to your statement that you would cap it. This implies that had you bet, gotten raised, and you re-raised, and gotten re-raised again, you would unhesitatingly go ahead and put a 5th bet in, all the while saying to yourself, "for all I know he may not even have a K or a Q and I might have the best hand". Show me a strong player who even 3 bets a BB on this board, and I'll show you someone who 9 times out of 10 will either a). Have a pair of fives severely beaten or if not, b). Have bigger clubs than you do.
All your math and points are well taken by me Joe. I don't disagree by much. It's just that he's out of position here. A good player with position, has more control of the betting and what goes in the pot than the poster does. I would certainly advocate a bet or check/raise for the poster, but I would consider it a semi-bluff. In either case, I'd want my opponent to fold here, but if he doesn't, that Ok too.
After x amount of bets and raises against a reasonable opponent, you have to stop and consider whether you have the best hand or even best draw for that matter. To blindly continue betting and raising on the assumption that you're pushing a small edge, ceases to be a good idea. At some point you have to put away the probabilities and start reading your opponent and putting him on a hand. Whether you are a statistical favorite over certain hands or not matters little if his actions are telling you he is 10 times more likely to hold 55.
Anyway, I enjoy these discussions with you Joe. If nothing else, it gets me thinking about different aspects of the game. If you ever saw me playing, you wouldn't believe I'm the same guy who twice argued a less aggressive approach. Take care.
Duck
"Show me a strong player who even 3 bets a BB on this board, and I'll show you someone who 9 times out of 10 will either a). Have a pair of fives severely beaten or if not, b). Have bigger clubs than you do."
I can't believe you have never seen a good player 4 bet with top pair or less heads-up. If this is the case, then you must play in some really passive games.
And even if he has bigger clubs than you do, so what? Your ahead with your pair of 5s.
This situation comes up a lot:
I have 2 overcards and a flush draw, and I get bet into. I raise, and get raised back. At this point, I know I am beat. But I got a ton of outs, so I 4 bet for the free card.
In fact, last night I defended my BB heads-up. So I fire into him on the flop, he raises, I re-raise, he 4 bets, I call. Turn comes, and I fire into him again and he drops. He obviously put in the 4th bet looking for a free card.
All I am trying to say is that you must play in some really passive games if guys will only 4 bet with KQ, KK, QQ, or 55 with a flop of KQ5. Any other hand and your a favorite. I know guys that will 4 bet with a flush draw heads-up, and that is fine because even against the nut flush draw I am ahead with my pair of 5s.
I think this discussion is going nowhere, because obviously in your games people don't 3 bet without the nuts. In the games I play in, people dont even need a pair to 3 bet. In fact, there are many situations where I will 3 or 4 bet without a pair.
The biggest reason to check/raise in this spot is as a semi-bluff. You're actually rooting for your opponent to fold, but if he calls, it's not a disaster.
I wouldn't be too aggressive with your hand. If you make the flush, you do not have the nut flush. You have two big cards on the flop your competition is likely to be holding. You are probably out paired. The KQ flop can help a lot of straight draws, AJc, JTc, etc.
Your flush odds are good, but they do not follow the clock, you may go a month and not amke a flush with a four card flush on the flop.
jmho....
I have been playing hold 'em for about 2 years, but I have been average at best. A few months ago, I discovered this site, and thanks to many of the books recomended here and the posts on this site, my game is greatly improved. I bought Turbo Texas Hold 'em, and after about 50 thousand hands, I now understand some concepts much more clearly. (AJo isn't always a great start, and KJo can be more trouble than it's worth among others).
I play 3/6(due to my newness to the game and bankroll limitations), and the game I play in is normally loose and fairly passive. There is a moderate amount of preflop raising, and there is virtually no check raising. I played last night for the first time in a few weeks, I've been studying and trying to improve my game. My results were okay. I played for about 6 hours and lost $25. I never got very far ahead or behind, and I believe I played pretty well except in a couple of instances. Since the difference between winning and losing is probably in these pots, I'd like some advice on a couple of things.
1. Medium Pocket Pairs: A couple of different times, I caught medium pocket pairs. Each of these times, I laid these down on the turn to bets with one or two overcards had fallen, and it turned out these hands would have been winners. I know there are going to be times when you make a good laydown, and it would have turned out to be a winner, but what is the best way to handle this type of hand?
2. I also still tend to be too passive overall. Since I'm playing low limit, it is very difficult to get players to fold, so I tend to let others lead out unless I'm really loaded. How should I handle this in this type of game?
3. There were a couple of loose cannons that came into this game late in the evening, and there were a couple of live straddles; how should one play in this situation?
I know this is a very long post, and I appreciate the everybody reading it, and all advice is welcome.
Thanks,
Fitz
1. Medium Pocket Pairs:
at low limits you generally need to hit your set to win... you also have a decent chance of winning with an overpair but people draw with overcards too much so that's not terribly safe either... if an overcard falls to your pair then fold the FLOP and get out cheap... the key thing about pocket pairs is in general they don't improve beyond the flop whereas your opponenets have all sorts of crazy draws... you either have to give up on the flop after missing your set or blast away charging your opponenets, howerver... in general with any medium pair fold on the flop wihtout a second thought
2. Passive
aggressiveness is just something you learn over time, and it's probably better to ease into it from passive play then to start a maniac and tighten up... you won't be playing winning poker as a passive player but you won't lose much either... just be patient and make your game a little bit more aggressive each time (ex. start check-raise semi-bluffing with nut flush draws, start check-raising with two pairs... reraise on draws when enough opponents are in... manipulate pot odds, etc.)
1. Medium pocket pairs - if you laid down winners with these, obviously you have to record who is betting without the matching overcards and RAISE them in these situations.
2. Loose games - you can't be timid when you have a good hand. You may also be slowplaying way too often. Get the money out there. Start getting in some check-raises, as when someone in a steal position raises pre-flop, you have an ace in the blind and one flops. There are many other situations too. It sounds like you are playing a lot of check-and-call hold'em, which will not get the money at any level of this game. I know in my own game, when I have had a good session, it doesn't seem like I called very much. Lots of raising, and TONS of folding.
3. With loose cannons you have to call and raise more liberally with them in the game. I like to put a maniac directly on my left so I can play patiently (VERY patiently) and then hammer the whole field when the maniac bets or raises and everyone calls with me holding a strong hand, and here comes the juicy reraise. This is one step to getting control of a game, which should be your ultimate goal. You can see it in their eyes when they are thinking, "What's he gonna do next?".
1. If you never muck a winning hand you are playing to many too long. Your mucks of med pairs are good laydowns most of the time with overcards out.
2. Good things tend to happen when you are betting and raisnig than when checking and calling. try confusing your oppoonents sometimes - if you are betting on top pair med kicker and you flop a set go ahead and bet it out your opponents are not going to be to worried about it unless you are changing your M.O.
3. Treat the live straddle as another random blind only with prejudice. Better hands should be raising straddles to isolate them if posssible. In all of gambling the straddle is probably the dumbest bet of all and it takes a real idiot to do it regurally you ought to be looking to punish stupidity.
1. Medium Pocket Pairs: A couple of different times, I caught medium pocket pairs. Each of these times, I laid these down on the turn to bets with one or two overcards had fallen, and it turned out these hands would have been winners. I know there are going to be times when you make a good laydown, and it would have turned out to be a winner, but what is the best way to handle this type of hand?
As a rule, drop a pair if an overcard hits.
2. I also still tend to be too passive overall. Since I'm playing low limit, it is very difficult to get players to fold, so I tend to let others lead out unless I'm really loaded. How should I handle this in this type of game?
You should lead out a lot more. Another thing is to check-raise strong hands especially in early position.
3. There were a couple of loose cannons that came into this game late in the evening, and there were a couple of live straddles; how should one play in this situation?
With a live straddle, you should either raise or fold BTF because with more money in the pot, you want to charge people behind you 3 bets to play. Plus, the straddle probably has a weak hand. Plus, you have position on the straddle. The ideal is to get heads up with the straddle, but usually only the blinds and the straddle will call.
are the big blind and small blind late or early position before the flop. and what are considered early, middle, and late postions in relation to the button. and i last question: in loose passive games are weak aces-suited and weak kings-suited ok to call with, with no raise when playing the BB and small blind? thanks for all the feedback from everyone, it has really helped me a ton!
Pre-flop, the action starts to the left of the big blind (UTG), and continues clockwise until it get to the blinds. The big blind then has the "option" to check or raise, making him last to act pre-flop.
After the flop, the action starts at the small blind or the player who is first to the left of the button.
The first three spots to the left of the big blind are generally considered "early position", with the spot to the big blind's immediate left, being referred to as "under the gun" (UTG). The next three spots are "middle position" and the remaining two (in a 10 handed game), are considered "late position". The position to the immediate right of the button is commonly called the "cutoff".
Suited aces and kings like multi-way pots and should be Ok to play for a raise from the big blind if this is so. From the small blind much more caution is needed since you are not getting as good odds to play. Hope this helps.
Kevin
Any info about 5-10 or 6-12 game in tropicana or Taj in AC like easy to beat or tough. Thanks..
The 5-10 game at the Trop is schizophrenic -- it plays like a 2-4 at times and like a 10-20 other times. The key is who's waiting for a 10-20 to open. The good part is that you only have to watch for a few minutes to determine table mood, just by watching the pre-flop play. Even the 3-6 gets tough at times. The Taj 5-10 is a little more predictable, loose and aggressive most of the time. The tourists at the Taj seem to play a notch or two above what you'd expect.
overall, these comments agree with my experiences there.
I think the tie breaker should be that the trop is ALWAYS a more pleasant playing experience....
I absolutely agree, Dave. The Trop runs a tight, professional room. I've always enjoyed it there. Can't say the same for the Taj.
Both the Trop and the Taj have 5-10, not 6-12. The limits go 2-4, 3-6, 5-10, 10-20. 5-10 and lower have a 10% rake with a $4 max. The Taj has more tables and a more visible room, so you will see more players (including more casual players) and not wait as long for your name to come up on a list. I think the Trop attracts more regulars, so the game tends to be a little tougher. Because the Trop is a smaller room, it is less chaotic.
If you are a decent player, the games are beatable.
Best games and less attitude from the players? the Taj all the way. The regulars at Trop own the place and Floorpersons. Anybody that tells you the Trop is better is because they are regulars there. At the Trop they may have one game of each, 2-4, 3-6, 5-10. Big may be. At the Taj, they have 2 or 3 games of each, all day long. You also will find a lot of dealers from the Taj playing at the Trop.
x
Trop dealers playing at the Taj tells us what? They are simply not allowed to play at the Trop and the Taj is the only game in town.
I've seen more Taj dealers playing at Trop. That little Tattoo guy and his Asian buddy show up after their Taj shift at least two or three times a week. And that guy named Patches. I could probably list off plenty of them, but I'm not sure what it proves.
Fact is in my experience, the Taj dealers are miserable and so are the players. There are more drunks at the Taj and there are more fights and screaming matches at the Taj.
There are more Taj dealers at the Trop, that vice versa, and it does not prove anything. It is only a comment. Only that because the place is smaller you notice them more at the Trop. Drunks and fights? about the same both rooms. Dealers? both places have good and bad dealers. At theTrop, too many players have bad attitude and little money on the table. At the Trop, too many of them hang around the place when they are broke and don't go home.
If stating that the dealers from one place play in the other proves nothing, why waste the time to type it?
Obviously your experience differs from mine.
General consensus that I've heard and read would not agree with you.
Tell Tommy Gitto I said hi and that he should fire that fat miserable moustache man floorperson that works overnights and we'll leave it at that.
n.t.
Hi, I'd like some advices on how to play AKs on the button, Here's the hand that made me post this question:
So I'm on the SB with AKs in diamonds, I don't have a very good read on other players but the table seems pretty loose (it's 2-4 at PP). The table is 6 handed.
EP limp in, MP limp in and I decide to just call because I want some opposition (mistakes here?), BB checks, we see the flop 4 handed
*** FLOP *** : [ Jd Ks 4s ]
I bet, BB calls, EP folds and MP calls.
*** TURN *** : [ Jd Ks 4s ] [ 4h ]
I bet again, BB calls, MP folds.
*** RIVER *** : [ Jd Ks 4s 4h ] [ 7d ]
I bet, and now BB raises! What can he have? Now I wish I had raised pre-flop. Since he didn't bet on the turn I assume he doesn't have a 4, I'm reading him for something like J7,I think about raising but I just call.
What could I have done better? Result in the next post!
Thanks David Saintonge
I think raising out of the blind with AKs in a four way pot is a good idea. Letting them know you have a good enough hand to raise from that position will hopefully stop them from drawing against you to the river. After raising when you lead the flop the only players left will be the weak Kings. On the other hand PP 2/4 HE games are very loose and you will most likely get sucked out on. AKs is obviously a strong hand and a defenite raise with four way action. Hopefully you won this pot.
In a 20/40 game 6 handed you might just call with AKs for deception but at 2/4 your opponents really just aren't paying attention... raise every time as a pure positive EV play...
given that you limped pre-flop you might actually try a check-raise on the flop... in a 6 handed game top pair/top kicker is a monster and deserves to be played as such
the turn you have to bet to charge any spades or straight draws still around... the 4 is actually a good card for you though (assuming nobody has one) because now hands like JQs and J7o lose even if they catch their second pair
the river bet is fine at these stakes because K lower kicker and other garbage will call you... regarding the raise... LL HE players LOVE to slowplay their "monsters" (some LL HE players thinks top pair w/ no kicker is a monster, hence the quotation marks)... I think it's quite possible that you opponent will turn over a 4... maybe even K7 or 77... you can't fold but I can't imagine a reraise being profitable... just call and (assuming he shows down some ridiculous suckout hand) take a deep breath, say "nh," and move on to the next hand
I havent read the other posts yet, but i think when you're short-handed you should raise your AKs. I only limp with them in the SB in a pretty multiway pot, and then when i hit going for a check-raise. I think when you had raised preflop and led out on the flop you would have looked a lot stronger then you did now. The same applies when you call and then check-raise in a multiway pot. So i think its either one of them; not call and then lead out.
Of course, he showed [A4] to won the hand with trips 4!
I really should have raised pre-flop, and then check-raise the flop. Thanks for your advices.
David Saintonge
there's this 6-12 game i play that i want so badly to learn how to consistently beat. so ive been rereading hpfap's section on beating loose games. for instance, i was just reading the part where they suggest raising on the button with small pocket pairs preflop when they are at least 5 players limping in ahead of you, and realised that this is something im definitely not currently doing..
this 6-12 game is very loose and some of the players are very bad, some of them rich (relative to 6-12). there are at least 3 players playing regularly who will play 75-90% of their hands and dig in there wallet for more if they bust out. every pot has 4-7 players seeing the flop. id say 5.5 people see the flop on average (it's a 9 handed game). 90% of the hands are played to the river. there are calling stations, but also the occasional raises and bluffs, especially on the turn, occasional preflop raises as well. so it's not as passive as it is loose. ive seen people showdown T4o as well as K high beating our J high with significant action on the expensive streets.
my main question is i often read on here and in hpfap, "you want to play hands that work well in multiway pots". i have some knowledge of what this means, but i would like to see lists of specific hands that play well mutliway (like ive described above) as well as hands that fair rather poorly given the above scenario. i just know that im throwing away hands i should be calling or raising with preflop and betting hands i should muck (i.e.: hpfap's comment's re: AJ). any help is greatly appreciated. thanks in advance for being specific.
hands that play poorly in multiway pots: big pairs and big unsuited cards
hands that play well in multiway pots: medium and small pairs, suited connectors, big suited cards, and suited aces
in a game like this you are going to have to show the best hand almost everytime to win a pot... so probably the most important thing is to NOT BLUFF... it simply won't work and it's a waste of your money... play tight pre-flop and blast away when you have the best of it, fold as soon as you can otherwise
I have different advice then Hummer, I am definitly not a pro but I am in this exact situation. I am in a $2-$4 game with 8 individuals, 5 of them are flat out bad poker players, and they other 2 are decent, but have the gambling mentality (if they win two hands in a row they bet hard)
I think in this situation, you have to play a bit looser pre-flop (depending on how many raises there are) and tighten up post flop, but when u have a monster, bet it the entire way.
The reason I say this is, you are getting tremdous amounts of action. If there is just the BB pre-flop I would personally be playing with anything 89s or better, or two cards over a T. You will be playing 20% of your hands (maybe more as soon as u get used to playing this game) The whole point is, if they aren't making too many bets pre-flop but betting out the door, as soon as they catch a pair, a 3 flush (not a 4 flush, a 3 flush) inside straight draw. Then you are going to make a killing when u catch your cards.
If you dont catch anything strong after the flop, fold. Personally I would stay with: 1: any pocket pair 2: any suited connectors 89, or above 3: any two cards T or above. 4: 8Ts, 9Js
just my advice, i could be wrong, but im in the same situation and making out like a bandit.