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Yes it was. You do not want to 3 bet out of position in a multi-way field with big slick. As you say you will not be isolating anyone plus there is a good chance that the raiser and/or one of the callers has cards you need to improve thereby crippling your chances. Just call and see the flop.
My question is WHY dont you want to 3 bet it from the small blind with AK? You have the second best hand if not the best hand. And its a 5 way pot. AND he said the raiser had liberal raising standards. So punish the 4 limpers before the flop as much as possible for coming in with bad hands. The only hands your scared of are AA, KK, and AK. You dominate AQ, AJ, AT, KQ. You dont care if the raiser has QQ, JJ, or TT. If you dont hit an A or a K your gone anyway so who cares if he has a pocket pair?
You aren't playing 30/60 at the Bellagio here. You are playing low limit hold'em. I would re-raise it without thinking twice.
Your are in the BB with (Kc,7c)
Two Late possition players call. SB Folds. You check.
Flop: {5c,8c,Ks}
You bet, one player calls (He is Moderately Tight Agressive, but doesn't think ahead, and has looser than perfect starting hand standards), and the other player folds.
Turn: {5c,8c,Ks};{Ah}
You check. (My thoughts here are that if you bet and got raised you would call and a free card wouldn't hurt you hand.) Your opponent bets and you call.
River: {5c,8c,Ks};{Ah};{2c}
You bet and get raised. What is the best course of action? A) Call; B)Re-raise; C)Fold... What would you do if you Re-raised and got Re-raised again?
Thanks, CV
Well, you can't fold. I think the default play would be just to call unless you know this player well enough to know, for example, that he'd always raise on the flop with an ace-high flush draw.
If you did reraise and he reraised again, you probably make a crying call unless you really know he's incapable of reraising there without the nut flush. (There are players who will reraise if they think you're a tight player who will lay down less than the nut flush, and figuring they can just fold to any reraise form you.) In a small limit game the fold is probably typically safer.
John-
Just curious if you see anything wrong with betting the turn... Thanks.
= Raider
I never would have checked the turn.
The river play would have been much easier with a bet on the turn.
I got sucked out on a LOT last night. Stuff like my top pair good kicker getting run down by guys hanging in with second or third pair hitting their kicker on the river and raising me on the end.
I'm in the small blind with Kd, Js. I hate this hand. Three limpers, I call, BB checks.
Flop comes: 9s, 6s, Ks. I bet out. BB and early limper fold, middle and late limper call.
Turn: 2d. I check raise the late limper and the mid limper folds.
River: 6h. I check, he checks.
Could I have reasonably bet this hand on the river? How was my play other than that?
David
Fear is not something you want to bring with you to the poker table. If you are in a situation where a bet is called for, you should not be afraid to bet, no matter what the previous action or results of the day have been.
This said, after check-raising the turn, why would you be afraid to bet the river? That was a pretty aggressive move, risky too. How did you know it would not get checked around, thus GIVING a FREE card to some fish playing bottom pair with a three kicker?
You were not thinking clearly on this hand, most likely because you were letting your results from that session so far influence your play. Let me guess, he had a weaker king?
By the way, welcome to low limit holdem. You will get sucked out on A LOT. Especially with offsuit high cards that flop a pair. See recent post by myself on "the mysteries of multiway pots, by Dan Hanson". His article is discussed in my post, and should be read if you haven't already.
This game drives me absolutely nuts. I can play stud, win or lose (usually win) and not tilt. I have no fear at a stud table because I KNOW I can win there and have been doing so consistently for two years. Even though I am convinced that Texas Hold'em is the best poker game of all, it drives me over the edge.
I actually won the hand and have no idea what my opponent had.
As you pointed out, I was not thinking clearly about the hand. I felt the need to write a response to your post, I don't know why. In doing so I have come to the conclusion that my thoughts on the game are not focussed. I have studied HPFAP21, TOP, Kreiger, Jones, and all the other material I can get my hands on, most especially this forum. I would like to think I have learned a lot about the game from here and elsewhere and am grateful to skilled players who take the time to help me and others.
Where do I begin to organize my thoughts and take what I have learned about the game and apply it correctly? Clearly I should be considering position, number of players in the hand and texture of the flop in considering how to proceed post-flop. Fit or fold, I know, but it seems that LL HE is nothing more than waiting for the nuts and betting them (it) (is the nuts singular or plural?). When I do this I leak chips missing the flop and getting big pairs run over. Occasionally I make the nuts and win and sometimes I even have a winning session.
Is that all there is? I feel like I am in danger of losing my mind on the way to hold'em enlightenment. My wife doesn't mind me playing stud because I remain calm and I can buy more stuff when I'm done than when I started, but she hates when I play hold'em 'cause I swear too much.
I feel like I just introduced myself at a meeting of fish anonymous. I need a 12-step program.
By the way, I did read your post and have been mulling it over a lot. I find it easier to apply the concepts to stud than to hold'em, once again. I obviously need help focusing my thoughts on this game. Where to begin? How do I begin to think clearly about each individual hand? When will the lights come on?
Thanks for your help.
David
There is no way around the fact that holdem is one of the most frustrating games you will ever play. I think the reason for this is the large amount of luck between the first and second rounds, due to the flop going from two cards to five. Therefore you will experience many hands where you start with a great holding, ie AKs or a big pair, only to have some fish flop trips, or river your ass with 83s and make a backdoor flush! Such is the nature of loose HE games, and not much can be done about it.
I actually find it less frustrating to play HE against weak players when the game is slightly shorthanded. I would rather play at a seven handed table with loose players than ten, mostly because the drawouts are less and the frustration factor is less. However, this doesn't happen much as low limit games are usually full and I generally don't play higher than 5-10.
One suggestion might be to get turbo texas holdem and practice against the computer making decisions and analyzing situations. It will be a less than perfect way to practice, but perhaps you could benefit from it. Keep in mind that TTHE does NOT replicate game conditions completely accurately, and computer opponents will never play the way humans do, even if they are getting it better....
It sounds from your post that you are especially frustrated and possibly on tilt with this whole holdem thing. If you are swearing a lot then perhaps you are often on tilt while at the table. This will cause you to lose much more than you would have otherwise. Holdem requires much patience and self control to play well, a CRITICAL combination when playing in loose games at a full table. Without these two things, you will simply not be able to win no matter how tight or technically correct you try to be. I too find stud less frustrating, but it is too slow and I usually wind up playing holdem because I "want some action". (that's a completely different topic!).
Another thing about these games is to remember about the changing value of different types of hands. offsuit high cards are giving away implied odds to all the drawing hands. Conversely, drawing hands such as suited connectors go up in value, getting good implied odds from the large fields of flop takers and little raising. A critical point is that you often want to have the best draw rather than the best hand. You will make more $$ in loose holdem games making flushes, straights, and full houses (with flopped sets from pairs) than with anything else. This in itself can be a frustrating phenomenon though, because next time you play, you may play more drawing hands, flop good draws, and never wind up getting there!!! Can you say ROAD RAGE!!! The cards don't remember that you missed your last 5 draws, and they don't care if you think you are "due" to win. Remember, the long run can be a very long time.
Not much more to say except patience, patience, patience....
Good luck...
Dave in Cali
Not betting the river is no big deal - if you get called or raised you are most likley beat and if you are not beat he will fold. I expect you won this hand. If not the other guy is a huge fish.
At an average of 3.5 rounds an hour, you are putting in $7 an hour for collection. If you played 35 hours, you dropped $245 into the collection box. You have to be 3-1/2 big bets per hour better than your opposition just to break even. That is next to impossible.
If you had the same result at 3-6, you would be ahead $147. ($245-73=172 chips you are ahead with out the collection. In a 3-6 game that would represent 516 chips. The 3-6 collection for 35 hours would be 3.5 x 35 x $3 = $369 rounded up to the nearest 3$ increment. $516-369=$147.)
Put another way, without the collection, you are beating the opposition by almost 2.5 big bets per hour, but the rake is 3.5 big bets per hour.
Move up as fast as your bankroll will allow.
Most importantly, when starting out, it's a terrible idea to try to get some experience and seasoning by playing in a 1/2 game.
True, you'll find out the basic form and flow of the game as played in that particular cardroom or casino, but you can pick this up watching from the rail.
Playing 1/2 HE is primarily a way to discover your tolerance for pain, second only to 2/4 Omaha.
I'm in middle position, with AJs (my third AJ in a row, but I digress). I limp, along with nearly everyone else, which is pretty standard.
Flop comes AA7 rainbow. It's checked to me, I bet, and 5 others call. Turn is a 9, second spade on the board. Again I bet, 2 callers this time, the guy on my left and the button.
River card is 4c. I bet, the guy on my left folds, the button raises me. I re-raise, and he re-raises me back. At this point it finally penetrates my skull that I'm probably beaten. I call, and he turns over A9o to take the pot.
Was I too aggressive on the river by re-raising him? He had just recently sat down at the table, so I didn't have any read on his play yet. He made his full house on the turn, but didn't raise me...that seemed strange to me.
Comments on my play are appreciated.
NotQuiteDead
Two comments. First, if they are all coming anyway, you should raise before the flop with your AJs. This is a hand, because of the suitedness that likes a volume pot.
Second, I suspect that if that nine would have been an eight, your opponent would have waited to the river to raise you anyway since he probably thought he had the best hand and wanted to trap you. If that's the case, your reraise is okay.
Mason-
I understand what you're saying about if the nine were an eight, but isn't a re-raise on the river still a bit frivolous considering the only hand that pays off, is the case ace with an unpaired kicker? Especially since it is now very difficult to fold to 4 bets.
= Raider
You have to balance how likely you think the person will pay off to it costing you two more bets. Of course, if you can be extremely sure that he will only reraise with a full house you could then always fold. But even if you are extremely sure, I believe that very few players would be psychologically strong enough to make the appropriate fold.
You are probably better off with just the fish and no maniac. Maniac games are a potential for a huge payoff, but they are very frustrating if you get unlucky. Unless you have the stomach to play against a maniac (let alone two), you are better off with the loose passive fish for opponents.
dave in cali
on the other hand - I can remember a number of times (just last night in a late 6-12 for example) when a maniac sat down at my table full of solid players, played 4 out of every 5 hands, raised every time without fail, and I was able to use his wild behavior to my advantage: to build large pots when I had a strong hand, to muscle other draws out of the hand when desirable. And while the other players probably knew what I was doing, it really made very little difference. In fact, their recognition of my acts led frequently to their staying in the capped pots, not wishing to be left out of the action, producing even more profit when I connected.
Your call on the turn is marginal at best. You correctly realize you're up against an overpair. On the river after the big blind has folded you either should fold or raise the SB. I would strongly consider raising the SB if he is the type of player who will fold in this situation. A board with four to a flush is one of the best bluffing situations. Not only does a flush beat him but triplicate Queen's beat him so if he is half a thinking player he very well may muck for a raise on the river.
Bruce
I agree that I probably made a mistake calling on the turn. I said so in my post. The point, though, is that I gave this guy's play some thought, and realized very quickly that he made a thoughtful bet on the river. His explanation made sense and I thought I would post the hand here to see if the group felt the same way. Obviously those who have responded so far also agree.
About a half hour later, I've limped in from middle position with Ace-little suited. Several callers. Board comes down Ace-high, one of my suit. Same guy bets, I call. Turn card is a paint of my suit, giving me a legitimate draw if I'm out-kicked. River is another face card, and board is something like A-K-Q-T-x. Guy double-clutches JUST a little bit, but bets again.
Now at this point, I remember his comment from earlier about betting the river to try to get the better hand to lay it down, and I read into his little hesitation that he does not have Broadway. Calling is maybe a little risky in that I can't beat 2-pair, but maybe now I can turn the tables on this guy, and I raise. I am fully prepared to lay it down if re-raised, but he thinks about it for a few seconds, and lays it down.
He flashed his cards, and he was basically on the same hand as me - Ax out of the BB. So I win a nice little pot.
Moral of the story, and Roy Cooke talks specifically about this topic several times in his book, and Rick N. and I discussed this earlier this month in LA - "Don't discuss strategy at the table and educate your opponents."
I realized from observing this player's action earlier in the session that he was capable of betting into a scary looking board at the river without the nuts. I used this information to my advantage, and will be more watchful of these situations in the future.
Well played. You're a fast learner.
Bruce
Dunc,
One example I saw a few weeks ago. I limp with JTs after four callers and flop the nut Str8 draw and flush draw. I raise BB's bet on the flop and call the turn. He bets the river and I fold. Shows a pure bluff with T6o. A few hands later he raises from early position and is reraised by another fast learner. He caps. Heads up. Rags flop. He bets: raise, reraise, cap. Same on the turn. Rag hits the river and he bets again; reraise; he calls. He shows QJo, no pair. The other player turns over AKs, no pair. She looks at him and says, "Thanks for showing that bluff."
John
a
My understanding is "Rolling on the floor, laughing."
I've heard a couple of similar, but different, interpretations. It's one of those silly chat room shorthands.
David
z
And did you then tell her in a less happy voice "Thanks for educating the bad players?"
David
Greatings fellow posters...
A situation often comes up in which I'm not sure what to do. Say you get delt pocket qweens and raise before the flop and say 4 opponents call, which I think is a reasonnable example for low-limit. Now the flop comes :
T 3 3
Damn! you say... (At least I can hear myself say it...)
Now against 2 opponents I would usually bet out and hope for the best.
But against more the chances of someone having a 3 is higher especially if more than 4 opponents called. (Which happens)
I think that most average players would check the flop and then bet or check/raise on the turn as a sort of slow play. To me it's wrong poker because if you do bet on the flop with a 3, people tend to not believe you and call anyway...Might as well bet.
My question is if you get raised on the flop or the turn do you have a play here?? I've seen players raise on the flop or turn with the T (or any highest card other than the pair). If the T was a K I'd fold but what are my chances that this bet comes from a T or a 3 ??
I usually tend to check call until an overcard hits but I don't know...
You???
The Prince
I would play the hand hard and fast until I am shown the wrongs of my way. Checking and calling with multiple opponents when you have an overpair because you are afraid a Three is out is not a winning strategy. You very well may have the best hand out. Where your strategy is flawed is if you allow a free card on the turn and someone gets there who otherwise would have folded. If I am checkraised on the turn than it's time for me to reassess the situation.
Bruce
Advice well taken Bruce...
This brings me to question 2: Say instead of qweens you have A K off. You are getting enough odds to chase on the same flop. Would you go for it ??
Thanks...
The Prince
Answer to question 2 fold it fast,asfar as question 1 it depends on the game and your possition.If the game is loose with bad players and you are in a late possition go fast and hard,however if the game is tight with good or better player and you are in early,or middle possition you need to slow down.But I would not fold with the giving flop.
I would play it fast on the flop, if I was called by a good player who wouldnt likely have a three, I would check-raise the turn.........pay day. Over and out.
Keep in mind that AK may still be the best hand on the flop. Your opponents still may not have a pair. If you are up against a smaller pocket pair you do have outs and some opponents if you show strength by betting on the turn may fold. With AK you are in real bad shape if an opponent called with AT or KT. I don't think there is any prescribed way you can play AK in this situation. Sometimes I play it aggressively and sometimes I just give up on the flop. A lot has to do with my image at the time, my opponents, and the overall flow of the game.
Bruce
besides getting more money in the pot, the preflop raise should eliminate a drecky hand or two decreasing the odds of another 3 being out. that acknowledged, this is still a ticklish flop at this level, but as bruce pointed out, a single challenger is much more likely to hold a T than a 3. watch out, though, if someone coldcalls a raise on the flop, particularly with no two-flush showing, or if 4 or 5 players stick around to see the turn.
Prince,
Do not check and call!! This is the most common mistake among LL players. Save it for those rare opportunities when you have a good draw. Your hand is good, maybe the best--bet it out, or checkraise the flop to get a feeling where you are in the hand. Checking and calling is weak poker. It advertises "I have a so-so hand, maybe one you can beat" or "I need help and am going to hang around here donating until I get it." Forget it. Don't ever do it with a made hand. Only play hands that make winners. That way you will only be using this bad strategy when you are drawing to a big winner and have the odds to do so.
KJS
I agree with the other posters, but I'll go even furthur. I like a flop like that to QQ. I think the premise that this is a barely playable flop is incorrect (my opinion).
You figure to get action from any hold involving a ten, plus anyone with overcards. As long as an Ace or King doesn't show up you can beat any split two-pair. Flops like this to a high wired pairs are gravy, bet it strong.
Not many playable holds,in any position, involve a three. If it were a higher pair on the board, you would probably have to think it over. But not on this one, even with 4+ callers.
Cmon prince you've won more than me and if my pocket pair is bigger than the pair on the board then I bet out. Usually I win the pot right there. Now if I'm raised then I'm check-calling (depending on pot) and hoping to make my boat.
If somethin' weird hits on the turn I bet out again.
(Been check-raise bluffed), but they fold on turn ;)
Thanks all...
I used to push it really hard...
It's just that recently, maybe it's just bad beats but someone is always there with an A-3 or some other crappy hand and slowplays me.
I guess I have to come back to basics...
Thanks again...
ThePrince
2-4 table. I am 3 places off the button, I 'm dealt pocket aces. 3 people call, I raise, cutoff calls, button calls, SB,BB call, UTG calls, #5 off the button calls. flop comes 7-8-9 rainbow. SB,BB,UTG, #5 check, I bet, cutoff calls, button calls, SB calls, BB raises, UTG calls, #5 calls, I fold, cutoff calls, button calls. Turn comes As. SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, #5 calls, cutoff folds, button calls, SB folds. River comes 3d. BB checks, #5 checks, button calls. BB wins with AQs. Did I quit too early??
tia
Holy cow you quit too early.
I would have reraised the BB in that situation.
I will usually toss a hand when it is apparent I can't win, but I don't think folding on the flop to one raise was a good idea.
In a 2/4 HE game this loose you know going in, raise or no raise, that 1) any holding is possible, 2) a flop like 7-8-9 is very likely going to give someone a straight draw, and 3) AA doesn't stand up terribly well in multi-way pots.
So - you 1) must bet your hand, and 2) expect that a raise from a player with a straight draw (if not a made straight) is likely. And unless there's a lot of action before it gets back to you, in the form of reraises, you must call to see the turn.
Post-flop is a whole other question, depending on what comes, but considering the odds against flopping a straight or a set, a call of only one raise on the flop is practically mandatory.
It's going to cost you 5 bets to see this hand to the end and if you win you'll win at least 7 times that much. So the issue is whether in a situation like this your opponents will either show you a straight or outdraw you at least 7/8ths of the time. No way.
If the check-raiser really had a straight, most of the time he'd bet it. After all, no one's going to assume he has a straight just because he bets, and might let him make it 3 bets. In lieu of betting, he might check-call the flop and bet out or check-raise on the turn. Because it puts everyone on alert and doesn't necessarily maximize bets, check-raising on the flop is often the least frequent choice of someone with a made hand on the flop and a big pot.
On the other hand, with J9 or K8 he'd often check-raise the flop to protect his hand. He might also check-raise with just a gutshot to convince you that you can't call him with overcards on the river. He might also check-raise with two pair or even a set hoping to knock out a gutshot or two. But given the size of the pot, you'd be right to try to outdraw even a set.
So when you consider the size of the pot and the various hands you might be up against, there's no way you can consider folding.
Hey, where I live we play a 3-6-12 game. 3 before and after the flop, 6 on the turn and 12 on the river. How should this effect my strategy in the game?
Thanks!
Tighten up preflop.
"Tighten up preflop."
Nope. Your implied odds go way up in this game. Therefore, draws pay off bigger.
I agree. Suited connectors and small pairs will go up in value, but not all drawing hands. Sure, optimal play is to loosen up on the first call, but the pre-requisite to that is being able to read the hands of the other players consistently.
In this game, that crying call you make at the end when your mid and bottom two pair gets raised is very expensive, and if you consistently call before the flop with mediocre hands you will find yourself in that situation more and more. You will also have a more difficult time protecting your hands because of the implied odds the other players are getting. You can afford to loosen up more and more but only in proportion to your ability to outplay your opponents.
For someone not used to the dynamics of this betting structure, I still recommend tight play.
Loosen up preflop.you have the chance to see extra cards very cheep and get out cheep if you do not hit,however if you do hit you have a larger limit on the tail end to see a larger overall win.
David says tighten up preflop, PK says loosen up. I going to plant my feet firmly in mid-air: The 3-6-12 structure shouldn't affect your preflop decisions at all, but you need to be more willing to release if the flop doesn't hit you pretty hard. I'm guessing you don't see too many runner-runner wins among the regulars.
A $112 river bet effectively increases your implied odds. This means you can go after your draws a bit more because of the bigger pay-off at the end. Gutshot str8 draws, 2nd pair with an overcard and other such draws are now usually playable especially if you have position on the bettor.
I play my made hands much more aggressively because I don't want players taking advantage of the better implied odds. I'll also raise a lot on the turn with a marginal hand then check it down on the river avoiding having to call that big bet.
The cost is the same to enter the pot but the pay off is bigger. This means you can loosen up, especially with suited connectors.
d
You should play more drawing type hands - the larger implied odds because of the bigger river bet makes it more profitable to chase, as long as you expect to be called on the river. Conversely, if you are betting the best hand, and it appears as if a draw got there, you should probably check more often than in a standard structure.
Also, you should see how the larger bet on the end is affecting the play of your opponents and adjust accordingly. It may be that they are more likely to fold for a river bet, or perhaps you have a bluffer at the table.
Another thing, you will get frustrated more often in very loose games, because when you inevitably get drawn out on, they can bet or raise you twice as much on the river. As I said before, it becomes more profitable to chase, and the fish will probably swim upstream even faster to try to catch up with you due to the large river bet. good luck!
dave in cali
thanks guys!
I'm looking at AcJc in the BB, rather loose game. 5 limp, SB calls, I raise, everyone calls, despite a few groans.
Flop Ad, 9c, 2s.
Everyone checks to the cut-off, who bets, and the button calls. SB folds, and I raise. All fold to the cut-off and button, who call. I raised because the bets came from late position. Although I check-raised two players instead of the preferable one, the pot was large at that point, ($80), and I wanted to maximize winning it by eliminating small pocket pairs, gut shots, 89s, 9Ts, and maybe even AXs.
Turn Ah
I bet, cut-off calls, button folds.
River 2c
I bet, and I am called by AQo. Split-pot, but many comment on my seemingly aggressive play of AJ. However, with top pair, large pot, and late position bets, and a backdoor flush draw, I think this was the right move. If a club came on the turn, a check-raise semi-bluff would be a strong move. If a blank hits, I still bet the turn, but maybe fold if I am raised and then called or re-raised by the button. I was fortunate not to be raised on the turn by AQo, as I probably would have in this situation, as I would have raised on the river when bet into with the realistic nuts. Does anyone have any additional insight on this play?
Your hand shows why AJs is not a raising hand against a big field.
KJS
You played the hand correctly. It is difficult to call or raise an aggressive bettor when your own advantage can be marginal at best. He must have put you on AK, AA, and/or was a weak/timid player. In this hand having the A and 2 pair on the board helped in making the calls from either player easier, but what if a X and X had fallen on the turn and river? Then your aggressiveness would have paid off. It would have been difficult for the AQ to call with one pair against a player who has raised multiple times throughout the hand unless he has a really good read on your hand. And most people do possess the talent necessary to read hands well and consistently. The only time you may be in trouble with this hand are against calling stations, mediocre and good players tend to out-think themselves in this type of situations. Great players will eat your lunch on this hand because they are better at reading and calculating the odds of what you are holding...
AJs is a GREAT hand for raising a bunch of limpers. If you aren't going to do it with a big suited ace, when ARE you going to do it?
David
David,
I might make that play on the button, or in an attempt to buy the button, but not in second worst position on the table. I might have kicker problems and might pay a lot to find that out, as this hand shows. (Of course, knowing someone at your table limps with AQo is a consideration too). You might be right that this hand has some value in the long run, but I think that you need position to put it in the always raise category. In BB with 5 limpers and the SB in, I also like the deception value of my hand.
What makes it so GREAT in this position?
KJS
What makes it so GREAT in this position?
Well, OK, I overstated the case. But consider that you are almost getting odds to raise just based on a flush draw, but the hand has other ways to win.
If a couple of the limpers are the types of players who would limp with any ace, then I think the raise has real merit, since you are only dominated by AQ and AK if an A flops and AK is less likely in an unraised pot. If one of the limpers might limp with AK and none of them would limp with anything less than A9, then it loses alot of it's attractiveness. I wouldn't be very happy with it in a tight game.
A jack high flop is good (except for JT, which can be troublesome). A suited flop is good. The hand isn't too hard to play well (the hardest is when an A flops, which is what happened here). It can be easy to get away from in some instances and it's capable of dragging a huge pot multi-way.
I'd rather have more limpers for the raise here, but I would make it occasionally depending on the other players and the image I wanted to project.
Of course, I'd prefer to be on the button with it.
David
I like the way you played it. I probably would have bet out on the flop, because I would have been afraid it would get checked around and I don't want to give free cards. Had I called, instead of raising pre-flop, I would then have gone for the check-raise.
But it depends on the aggressiveness of your opponents. If you can count on a bet, then the check-raise is better, I think. You definitely want to thin the field if you can.
David
AQo didn't raise you because you represented either AA or AK, KK, QQ, JJ and ur flop raise is saying to him, "I can beat your top pair." He had Q as a kicker, which he knows can be easily dominated by a BB preflop raise, then flop raise, so therefore AQo went in check and call mode, but obviously AQo is a thinking, cautious player; or just plain chicken. I prefer the former over the latter.
You're pre flop raise with AJs is 'eh' or some say marginal. I would never make that raise b/c u'll have kicker trouble up the butt and u'll be out of position, as you did in this hand, but got lucky on the river.
Peace out.
-jon
You bet the hand very aggreisvly but ok. Somtimes I would play it the same way, sometimes more passivly.
Don't listen to the other players, they are not there to improve you Poker.
I like the pre-flop raise if it was early in the session. You just need to make sure everybody sees the AJ, which apparently worked based on the table buzz after the hand. You're going to get hammered if you try it too often. You were fortunate to pick up the split; any river card besides a 2 or a 9 sinks you.
I'm playing 2-4, and get KK in late position. I raise, UTG has bet, now calls, BB protects. Flop comes out, 2h 5s Kh. Two check to me, BB and UTG. I sense a flush draw, knowing BB, and these two are solid enough players to fold weak flush draws to perceived strength. I know I will have 17 outs for a full house- if a flush comes (18 outs) and the board pairs (2 to 1 odds?) that will be worth 2-6 BB for me. Do I bet, being pretty sure I will win a small pot, or check, knowing I'll probably win anyway, but a bigger pot? Is one in the hand worth two in the bush?
Before the flop there are 3 people in for 2 SB, plus .5 from the SB for 12.5 bets. If you bet the flop and someone is on the flush draw he will call you. Assuming the other person folds you will have 14.5 SB in the pot. If the flush misses and you bet the turn the flush draw has to decide whether or not to call 16.5 SB for 2 SB. He is getting 8.25:1, and he only needs 4.5:1 to call, so you will get another call on the turn. If the flush draw doesn't complete, you will not get another bet, if it does, you will probably make a crying call and lose another BB... unless it pairs the board in which case you will probably get raised and you can reraise and make 3BB.
So I think the correct thing to do here is to bet, and hope they have half a hand.
Derrick
With the best hand at this point why would you want to give free cards to a hand that could beat you? IMO you are not so significantly ahead that you want people to catch up. Any flush draws are also getting correct odds to call anyway, and there may be a 55 or AK out there as well which might pay you off nicely. Just my 2 cents.
J.
The question is what could they have that would cause them fold if bet, but call or bet with the right card on the turn, and have paid to see the flop, and lose to you in the end. I think this is a small universe. You are ahead but not so far that I would be willing to give a free card. I would bet here.
Of course I wouldn't have posted this if something good happened. Another heart hit the board and BB started betting. UTG folded (AK) and I started calling, looking for the board to pair(mistake?). When it didn't, I made a crying call. He turned over a 78h to my dismay. Is this a fold or raise situation? After the hand, he said "no bet on the flop?", sounding like he would have folded. Now, assuming I was sure he would have folded, does the answer change?
The only way I check the flop when I flop top set is if the flop was a rainbow. With 2 of a suit, I bet everytime.
Ken
I always would bet the flop. As OhKanada said, if it were rainbow, a slowplay would be more correct, although I still wouldn't do this, especially in LLHE. Once the apparent flush is made by your opponent, I would still call because you are 3.6:1 to fill up or quad on the river and you have more than that in the pot. Top set is a good hand, but not enough to give a free card to your opponents with a 2-suited board.
Every single time you should bet. One of the biggest mistakes I see in LL HE is players not betting their hands. If they do have a flush draw why would they fold them to one bet? Don't lose a pot to runner-runner because you didn't bet the flop.
Now if the flop is K-5-5 the situation is different. These are the hands you can slow play. But even in this situation if you think you'll be called it's often best to bet.
Thank you all. Chalk that one up to a rookie mistake.
I don't think checking the flop was such a terrible play with only two other people in the pot. If you bet the flop the flush draw will not fold, unless it's Rounder. Also, by checking the flop AK will now bet into you if a heart does not come on 4th street. If the heart draw is between you and AK you can now trap them for 2 big bets. Of course if you had bet the flop there is a good chance that AK will check raise, which would've been the best case scenario for you. In your case I don't think there was really much you could have done to win this pot. Its pretty hard to lay down a set of Kings so unless you knew the player with hearts would hardly ever bluff its tough to fold.
Today I played the following hand:
I get KJo in the BB. 4 limpers, SB calls I check.
Flop is 2 4 5 rainbow.
SB checks. Well, this seemed to me a perfect flop to bet: it's easy to represent small cards since I'm in the BB (indeed when the flop comes TQK I invariably have 24o). Three fold (including SB), 2 call my bet.
Turn is a 7.
I am first to act and bet again and am called by one player.
River is a 9.
Here I thought the only way to win this pot was to bet again. I did and got called by A7....
How bad are all my bets??
Steven
I should add this was a loose-passive game. And aggressive is with 2 g's I think.
Your callers were likely either on a draw (6,7 or 7,8) an overpair, overcards like yours or something like A,5. I would have slowed down on the turn, hoping to get to the river free are fold. Don't continue to bluff bad players, which the A,7 player must be. But after he hit the 7 his play was not so bad.
This isn't a good flop for the play you made because (1) you are inherently representing a vulnerable hand, (2) there are possible straight draws out, so that your opponents might either call with draws or call because you might be betting a draw, and (3) all the low card make everyone's overcards look stronger. 942 or J53 would be better flops to get the middle connector hands out. Even then I'd be happier making the play with position. Your were lucky not to get raised by a pocket pair or Axs.
On the end I probably would have figured that my bets smoked out the guy with a pair and he's not going to fold for one additional bet. The players that tend to call until the river and then fold no pair hands are easy to spot because they're constantly there on the turn but not showing down a lot.
Be wary of feeling the need to get value for a better than average blind hand. Your position is lousy and when the flop misses you you're doubly hurt. Find better spots for your money.
Same loose-passive game as post above, but now with 6 players.
I get QQ in the BB, and I raise after everyone else had limped in. Everyone calls.
The flop is A 8 5 with 2 diamonds.
I bet only one caller. Had I been raised I would have had to fold probably.
Turn card is a Q! no flush possible.
I bet, he folds.... How enormously stupid was this bet??
Steven
Not at all. If he has a draw he calls and you make an extra bet and charge him for his draw. If you don't bet he gets a free shot at his draw. You have a good hand but don't think it's unbeatable for a minute.
Also what if he has a big hand and was waiting for the turn to pop it? Now you get to put in 3 bets (or more).
Always bet, he may miss the river and fold to a bet any way and then you made nothing.
Better to win now or charge him to draw, then give him a free card and still win nothing if he misses.
Not stupid at all man...Take the pot now.If he has 67 he has 8 outs and you're going to let him draw for free? No way. Any KJ,K10,10J, can also make a staight and you said the flop had 2 diamonds so a flush draw is possible. Now if you had checked and this guy hit a gutshot then you can say how stupid was I not to bet the turn and my response will be VERY!
Pot after Pot,
Russ
It was stupid only if you relish the thrill of giving free shots to beat you.
= Raider
With that board, he has (potentially) lots of outs to beat you. You MUST bet! If you check, you are giving him infinite odds (ie, free card) for his draw to beat you. Charge him to draw!!
The bet was anything but stupid. It was mandatory.
Regardless of the other comments pointing out the necessity of betting, I wouldn't be too quick to decide that your bet was the primary reason for his fold. He may simply have had nothing, and had no prospects of making anything.
Here is a simple question that will show your bet was not stupid. What card would you expect to see on the river that would lead him to call post river and lead you to bet on the river. If its a diamond, you are probably beat. If its not a diamond, probably he wouldn't call then either. So, don't worry about that bet.
David
I was playing in a four handed game, when I looked down and saw 99. The cut-off folded, I raised, SB folded, BB re-raised, I re-raised, BB capped, which, in turn, made me sad.
Flop 7 8 9 r (which, in turn, made me happy)
BB bets, I raise, BB re-raised, I re-raised, BB calls
Turn: x
BB bets, I raise, BB calls.
River: 7
BB bets, I raise, BB calls. I show my nines full, BB throws down AA, and gets pissy. SB read both hands, noting that BB played it horribly after the flop, but noted my pre-flop re-raise was a little wild. Ten handed, BB plays quality starting hands, and would typically only re-raise a solid player w/ AA,KK,AKs,AK,QQ, similar to my standards. Short-handed, however, his knowledge of my ten-handed game hurt him, and he lost two-bets after the flop. I am guilty of loosening his re-raising standards in my own mind, too. Also, the game was spread limit, so the bet did not double, thus my aggressive play on the flop, knowing he would not lay down a big pair.
With what hands would one re-raise a BB re-raise here against typically solid players (People with whom you've never played in a short-handed game)? I know this is not a cut and dry question, but there are surely multiple perspectives.
99 is a very good heads up hand. But when he re-raised you, you have to assume that he has at least one and most likely two overcards to your 9's, or a big pair. In which case you are a small favorite or a huge dog.
I don't don't like the pre-flop re-raise at all. The only thing you gained from it was information. But if he'd had JJ or QQ, you wouldn't have gotten the same information, but you would have been just as much of a dog.
I don't think playing shorthanded actually changes things much in this particular case (relative to a full ring game where everyone folds to you on the button).
David
I think its what YOU are DOING with the re-raise, not what the re-raise does for you. It looks like you have something better than 99. So when a flop like this one falls you can probably cap the guy when holding a set and he won't think much of it (other than he thinks you have AA or KK and are a maniac.) His action post flop tells you he has AA (would anyone else cap with less?) Not only that if any KQJ hits your betting will likely get him to fold. He REALLY thinks you made a set.
Loser's bets on the turn and river are ridiculous. When a pot gets capped on the flop someone has something better than a pair of AA.
Isn't Loser's correct play...Well first not to cap post flop. Second shouldn't he be checking and calling to the river? (unless an A hits)
I agree that the pre-flop re-raise earns you more money those times you happen to flop a set (through deception). But those are the exception, rather than the rule. Most of the time you are just going to need 99 to stand up on it's own, or cause your opponent to fold.
In this particular case, you aren't going to cause AA to fold here much, even if he becomes convinced you have a set, because he can never be certain. It can't be too far wrong to never fold AA heads up.
Yes, I think the loser should have backed off and check/called all the way to the river. He played like a fool. He made one read and stuck to it, no matter how much evidence our hero provided to the contrary.
David
You are right of course...The deception is even better if loser capped pre-flop with AQ, AJ, AKs. Then if a big card hits the flop you can check-raise. Opponent will likely fold right then if he missed. They aren't getting odds to draw out now.
About the check calling. In the LL I play I see people check-raising the flop sometimes which without the nuts sends me into check-call mode. They still bet into me and then showdown SQUAT. I lose lots of bets this way, but I still think it is correct play.
If the BB is solid, I re-raise with AA-JJ, A-K and possibly A-Qs. I don't think your re-raise is terrible though, esp. if it's been an aggressive game. BB could put you on a steal and re-raise with 88, 77 or something like A-8s.
YOur play was a big underdog, reraising before the flop came. You have only two outs, thats 2/50 or 1/25 in hitting your card. But hey, this is gambling
I still don't understand this. If the loser with AA was capable of folding then Thom has a bunch of outs. He has more straight outs, he has outs with a KQJ (because of his re-raise) etc.
In a short-handed game, I probably would raise almost every single time with 99 or better. It is more than likely that I have the best hand at the moment and would like to charge anyone with a single overcard (i.e. K7, A5) an admission price to see the flop. I probably wouldn't have re-raised the BB unless he was a total fish, but not a horrible one either. Especially if he was an aggressive player, who would overplay a big ace pre-flop.
I don't understand you opponents play on the turn and river. Even with aces, I would probably back off, after being shown so much strength. Maybe even fold if I knew how you played.
I think you played the hand very well, you got the maximum value from your hand.
Just curious, you said that your opponent capped the betting pre-flop. I play in San Jose, CA and if it is heads-up there is no cap. Meaning on any round of betting, if it is heads-up, you can go until someone is all-in. I have not played much poker outside of San Jose, just wondering if your club has different rules.
Around here, the hand has to start heads up before there is no capping. Preflop obviously it does not start heads up.
Thom Yorke's post has the game 4-handed with both the cutoff and the SB folding pre-flop. Unless I am misinterpreting what you were saying, this was heads-up pre-flop.
No; at the place I play, "heads up" means: at the start of the betting round, only two players have cards. Preflop 4 players start the betting round with cards in this example, so it is not heads up. Every further round of betting would be heads up, but not preflop.
David
WOW! Where is this?
OK I got one for ya. Playing with the loose passive fish on Paradise again, when I get Ah5h in early position. There is about about a 100% chance I'll get enough callers to make a draw worth while. So I open limp.
I'm seat8 BTW. Seat9 raises. Seat10,3,and BB call. I re-raise!(my thinking was everyone is going to put $2 preflop for me to draw on.) Seat10 Caps it. ALL CALL.
So seat10 probably has AA,KK,QQ,AKs etc.
Flop is 5c 5d Tc.
BB checks, I check, Seat 10 bets, called to me. I RAISE (hmmm was this too maniacal?) Seat10 re-raises. Two fold, BB calls, I CAP IT! Both call.
Turn 8d
BB checks, I bet, Seat10 calls.
River is the Ks
I proceed to start looking for logs to smash against trees out in the woods.
BB checks, I check, Seat 10 bets. All Call.
BB show JJ. Seat 10 Shows.........KK......of course.
Winning a 22 bigbet pot.
Am I a maniac or was this just a matter of KK's holding up for once on PP? ;)
Called a bad beat - have to get used to it if you're gonna play this game. Specially LL I've had much worse happen on 10-20 real games - just let it roll off your back - bottom trips are a really vunerable hand - your check raise on the flop told the table you had a 5 in your hand you could have been drawing dead to the 4th 5 cuz someone could have had TT the way the betting went so far. Turn told you you were in the lead and the river K meant a crying call.
Another reason to not play and reraise Ah5h from early position.
I would absolutely agree EXCEPT when you get 4-8 callers AND you make your flush, it pays WAY more than all the other times put together.
No way.
You also do not want any raises preflop, let alone have it capped preflop. You want to play that drawing hand rather cheaply. From early position in a very loose game you are pretty sure to get raised.
I disagree that it pays WAY more times than what you lose. If the flop brings two of your suit and you are calling to the river, costing you a lot of bets when your heart doesn't fall. The flop drops 3 of your flush and it's tough to get action. The board pairs and you are often dead when you do make your flush.
Even worse, the flop brings an Ace and you are stuck with top pair and a rotten kicker - can you lay it down? If you can't lay down Axs from early position, I highly doubt you are going to let go of top pair on the flop.
Even if you flop trip 5's, that is a very beatable hand against many callers.
Folding Axs in early position has made me a lot of money. If you want to keep playing it, be my guest.
Your only mistake was over playing your hand pre-flop. It is okay to jump the fence occasionally and limp in early with Ace-Little suited if the game has become passive and you are confident the pot will not get raised. But once the pot gets raised behind you, you should then just call and take the flop as cheaply as possible.
On the flop, my preference is to lead out with my small trips and hope to get raised by an over pair so that I can 3 bet. The rest of the hand is a bad beat story.
Hmmm, what about Izmets theory to get as much money in the pot as possible when you have enough callers to make drawing your flush profitable.
Did I need 6 callers instead of just 4?
http://izmet.desetka.si/thinraises.html
First you should get a draw, 2 cards does not a draw make ! Welcome back Jim, I thought Roy had spooked ya !
Poorboy, I didn't mean to be rude, I might sometime make that preflop raise on the button with nut flush cards and 6-9 callers, but not early.
Hey any reply is better than no reply ;)
Thanks for the post.
Going from preflop with two suited cards to the river you are around a 20-1 underdog to make a flush. I calculated this a long time ago so I may be wrong. I could even be thinking of the number for something else, but whatever the actual number is (i'm too lazy to calculate it just now) you are a big dog to make a flush so you shouldn't put it such a large amount preflop, especially with only 4 or 5 callers.
1) I think it's ok to sometimes re-raise preflop with hands like A5s in loose games, provided you play well postflop. There should be enough hands of the T7o and K4o variety held by the fish to make your re-raise at least break-even, and I like building pots when it gets my opponents to play poorly on later streets. While building a pot means that your opponents will have the correct odds to chase on later streets with a lot of draws, they will often be chasing with draws that are dead or nearly dead. (I.e. people with KQ or JT will often take a card off on a Axx flop, and if they pair up, are tied to the river.)
Also, the big pot will sometimes make your opponents get way too fancy trying to win it. Not long ago I built a pot with QJs, both preflop and on the flop when I had a flush draw and gutshot. I made my flush on the turn, and was check-raised by a guy holding 77 with a 7 in the suit of the flush. I 3-bet and he paid me off on the river with just the lousy pair of 7s, even though there was a possible flush and two overcards on the board.
I generally prefer jamming my strong draws on the flop as a means of tying my opponents to the pot rather than jamming with hands like A5s preflop (to jam preflop as well I'd rather have a QJs type hand), but preflop is ok too.
2) As far as your postflop play, you played fine, but I would consider going for a check-raise on the turn. After you've capped the flop, KK might take a free card, so I usually refrain from capping the flop and then go for the check-raise on the turn. Most opponents won't put you on trips because you played it fast on the flop.
-Sean
Foxwood-loose-4-8 holdem. A women in the game has seen 99% of the flops and has gone to the river 90% of the time. She is down about two hundered, when preflop it is capped and she calls all the way. Flop is 338 unsuited, it is bet and raise with her calling 5 people in the pot. Turn is a 7 and there is a bet an three call with the women coming in for a call. River is a 7 and it is check around to the women who now bet and she is called. She wins and shows k-7 offsuit. Some of the players at my end of the table were upset but I told them that they want her to keep playing and in time they should get there money back. She saw nothing wrong with her play and I think that she should not be told and different.
I agree with you,a fish needs to win a few hands otherwise they will not come back and donate more to the sharks
Exactly, this is what will happen if someone plays any hand till showdown. Expect bigger miracles and expect her to lose more.
Behold the wonder of Foxwoods low-limit.
I'm not sure how characteristic it is of other rooms in the country, but Foxwoods seems to be the home of low-limit "explanation poker". The 4-8 games are full of guys willing to part with their "optimal strategy" every time they're either not in the hand, or get sucked out on. Keep the table lively in this case. See a thread I posted on the General Theory forum a couple of months ago entitled "Shielding live ones from criticism", and do your best to make sure that the fish doesn't get up from the table.
It's probably not too bad to have the whiners at the table, either. If they're so thick that they can't realize someone donating their money to the rest of the table is a good thing, they're probably not going to walk away winners too often, anyhow.
Enjoy those 4-8 games. They're quite good.
I was playing 3-6 HE the other night on a shorthanded table (I believe we were down to 8 by then) and I had 9-10o on the button. Some raising preflop, but I was doing well so I decided to call. The flop came J-8-3 rainbow, so now I was open ended. A one bet round after the flop, which I called (5 people still in the hand). Turn was ace, and the first guy bet, second folded, third raised, fourth called, and I had the decision to make. After a few seconds thought, I was feeling lucky, so I called, and it got called around. River was the 7, so after bet-fold-fold-call, I raised, and was called around, with several of the players I had sucked out on earlier with sick looks on their faces. I showed my straight and was shown AA and AJ by the two raisers, who then spent some time debating where they should have raised more to push me out.
My question is: should I have folded after the turn? I suspect so..but do I have any justification at all for staying in (the two of them certainly didn't think so!).
David
ps, earlier in the night, one of those two people had flopped a royal flush. Never seen THAT before. Further...she won in a showdown! Crazy.
I believe you have a call on the turn. Pre-flop with 5 people in the hand including the blinds there would bet $15 in the pot. On the flop with no one raising and still 5 people in there would be another $15 for a total of $30 in the pot. On the turn with a bet, a raise, and a cold-call the pot has $60 in it and it costs you $12. You have 8 outs from 46 unseen cards so the odds are only 38:8 against which is less than 5:1. You also figure to collect one or two bets at the river if you make your straight.
Your opponents played poorly. The guy with AA should have raised pre-flop and you might have folded rather than calling two bets cold. The guy with AJ should have raised on the flop or bet the flop and the guy with the AA should have raised. This is what happens when players fail to bet their good hands.
Not much I can add to Jim's math. They both got pretty much about what they deserved. But these types of plays are not just confined to Low Limit. I was in the BB last night in a 10-20 game and got to see a flop with 4-2o in a 7 man field. Flop comes down Td-2d-2s. I bet the hand right out from the get-go, get called all the way from a middle position woman who is a floorman at another casino in town. She shows down KK at the river. You think I'm calling a pre-flop raise from the BB with 4-2??
She limps in with KK but never bothers to raise on a raggy board? Limping with big pairs has its merits in a tighter or more aggressive game, but if she's not going to raise when she gets a good flop like that I suppose that opponent is as weak-tight as they come. (Especially since there are very, very few low limit opponents who bet out with trips on the flop.)
-Sean
Nope. Never made a peep. Called all the way to the end.
She got into the game playing over a dinner marker, and quickly hit a rush. Was up close to $300 in about 40 minutes, and the other player came back into the game. She sat out briefly, but was first up on the wait list, and got back into the game less than a half hour later.
When she left the game after the guy came back from supper, I made a quiet comment to the guy on my left, a very solid pro who beats this game up virtually every night. I said," At least that money is not leaving the poker community. It will be back in circulation soon." How little did I know at the time that I would be the recipient of some of it an hour or so later. She did burn up the $500+ that she re-entered the game with, plus another $100 or two and was still playing when I went home.
While I agree that Dave (Hi Dave. Long time no see.) has a call on the turn, I think that you missed that he implies that it was one or more raises preflop. This is where Dave makes his mistake.
One other thing: if Dave sees that the guy who turned out to have AA is going to reraise the turn, then Dave has a good fold, I think. Why the guy with the set didn't hammer it through the table is beyond me.
Eric
Should I take this to mean that on the button, with 4-5 callers, 9-10o is a folding hand?? I had thought given my position, and your drawing chances, it was an easy call. In fact, of the first three betting rounds, the first one was the easiest decision for me!
Apologies if I sound like a beginner (which I am).
David
David says "Should I take this to mean that on the button, with 4-5 callers, 9-10o is a folding hand?? I had thought given my position, and your drawing chances, it was an easy call."
I guess it depends on whether there were raises involved. If not, then certainly call. The way you wrote your original post made it sound like there were one or more raises before it got to you. If that was the case then calling is very wrong. T9o is the kind of hand you play cheaply against lots of opponents and hope to hit a big hand. Paying double or triple reduces your implied odds too much.
BTW, are you still active in the local chess community? Unfortunately, I haven't touched a piece in years.
Eric
I still don't understand.
If a hand is a calling hand at 3 preflop, shouldn't it also be a calling hand at 6? Your odds of making your hand into something, and if you are acting late, you can see that your payoff will be the same, no? In fact, I would have always thought that given preflop raising, a drawing hand would have even more value preflop, because you will have better pot odds to go for your draw if you get on the way there after the flop (as in my case, when I was openended after the flop). The way I looked at it: the people raising have big cards. I have medium cards. If medium cards come, the raisers are going to have high cards and feel comfortable staying in, so I will be able to hit big if I hit. If unuseful cards come on the flop, I can toss it in immediately.
But mainly, since you are only working on an x to 1 ratio, preflop whether I put in 3 or 6, I am still working on a 5-1 payoff, no? And isn't 5-1 or similar a reasonable set of odds to play connectors?
These are honest questions; apologies if they sound dumb.
Yes, I still play a bit of chess, but after I got my master rating, I lost most of my interest. I did beat IM O'Donnell at the Canadian Open this summer, and after that major highlight, I couldn't think of much else to try to accomplish.
David
Having to pay multiple bets to take a flop with connectors damages their profitability. This is because putting in twice as much money pre-flop does not mean that when you make your hand you will a pot twice as large as it would have been had you only paid one bet to take a flop. With a hand like Ten-Nine offsuit you want to see a flop cheaply with lots of opponents. To win the hand you will need at least two pair, trips, or a straight normally since a pair of Tens or Nines will not hold up against a large field.
My numbers here may not be exactly right, but they should give an indication of the problem.
With a hand like T9o, you will pretty much have to throw the hand away on the flop about 60% of the time. So, out of 100 time you play this hand, by calling a raise you are giving up an extra 60 bets right away. You will continue on and lose 3 or 4 more bets (say) another 26 times. You will continue on and win only about 14 times. However, when you win, you really don't get much more extra than those initial extra preflop bets when it was raised.
Since the pot usually won't be anywhere near twice as big when you win, it means that you would need to win much more frequently with your T9o in order to maintain your profit margin. However, the win frequency (after call a preflop raise) just ain't gonna change.
Eric
Usually there is not much to add when Jim Brier gets there first. Just a couple of general points. Remember that the odds for drawing to hands are when they are to the nuts. But it is not always the case for straights to be to the nuts. In this case your queen out makes a higher straight and a backdoor flush is usually possible too. Neither is likely but just be aware of it. This does require you to need a bit of an overlay. So look for a bet or two more than the odds appear to dictate. Also consider the fact that it may be reraised. It is better to play a little conservative when purely drawing and there is little chance you are leading. (For example if you have an overcard ace with a flush draw, the ace high hand may have some tiny chance of leading or may pair off itself).
By the way if you are playing the game to win money, you probably don't want to call raises with that hand or call bets because you are feeling lucky. But honestly, poker is just a game, which posters often forget, and if you are having fun, go for it. In looser weak games you may still be able to show a profit.
Take care. Sounds like a good game.
Thanks for the comments; maybe my call wasn't as dubious as I felt it was.
As for the "feeling lucky" comment...I play only on weekends, attempting to make some extra money, so once it hits like 3 or 4 am, I start getting tired and playing worse because Im not used to being up that late. Its then that the "feeling lucky" calls start...
David
Heya Dave,
I heard about the hand the next day :)
Your call before the flop is incorrect. You need more players AND they have to be poor players after the flop in order to barely make money. But you are on the button and there are 5 players so the mistake is perhaps not too bad for $3-6 at the Baccarat.
That flop is a clear raise for you. A good rule of thumb in a $3-6 game like that is to bet your big draws (like open-ender on a rainbow or a HIGH flush) as though you already hit (only on the flop mind you). This means raising or check-raising to build the pot, or smooth calling if the better is immediately to your right to induce more callers (and reraising if somebody else raises). This is not a bluff, it's actually for value.
In your case you have a better and 3 callers to you. You are getting 4-1 on the money that you raise. This is assuming that everybody will call and in that $3-6 game they probably will (even if the original reraises, which is not a disaster). With TWO cards to come you have about a 2.2-1 chance of hitting your straight (this is not the chance of winning the hand, especially if somebody has trips, but it's a reasonable estimate for a rainbow board when you don't know their hands).
You also increase your chances of winning the hand as you may kick out a runner-runner flush.
This case has the additional benefit that everyone might check to you on the turn (whether in fear or a failed check-raise attempt). Note in $3-6 you should resist the temptation to bet the turn since it is no longer for value. With only one card to come it is about 4.7-1 to nail your straight so you have to be sure that a LOT of people will call for the bet to be correct.
Just my two cents...
Jim Roy
Jim Roy, this hand was played at Baccarat? Well, that explains the results of my hand (see post above in resposnse to Dave Ottosen). The off duty floorman who didn't raise up front in my game at Yellowhead, probably on the same day, works at Baccarat. I'm pretty sure you can figure out who it was. She probably saw the first hand played out, and decided to get cute with her KK.
Hey Dunc:
Yes this hand was played at Baccarat, but I don't recall any female floorpeople working that night. And certainly I don't think anyone except the players at our table were watching because some young kid was running up over +$1000!! playing 3-6 on the main table. It was something to see $1000 in $1 chips sitting in front of this kid.
David
That is HUGE! My own personal best in 3-6 is a little over $600 a couple of times, and that was over 2 years ago. I've got to curl tonight at the Avonair at 9:00; maybe I'll stop by Baccarat for a couple of hours first.
I think the problem with betting this flop is the size of your bankroll (which you hadn't indicated). Ok, suppose you walk into the $3-6 game with a $60 bankroll and you see those cards on the flop. Are you still comfortable betting the flop?
The problem is that you're reducing your profit margin, and that's fine and probably best if you have a large bankroll. But reducing your profit margin increases the variability of your results and can result in shooting through your bankroll if you're not 'lucky'.
There's also the question of whether or not you can stomach these sorts of gains and losses even when you walk in with enough funding.
Aaron
Here's a hand that I probably misplayed on either the flop or the turn. I would appreciate everybody's thoughts and comments.
I was sitting in the SB and got a great AcKc. 5 players limped in, and I just checked. I think this is ok: raising would give too much information about my hand, and I am out of position. Moreover, if I flop 'just' a K or A, I'd rather be able to get rid of opps by betting/raising postflop (how prophetic!).
BB checks, so we take the flop 7-handed. (Normally there wouldn't be this many callers, game was not so passive in general.)
Flop: 7c8cAd.
Pretty good flop for me, top pair plus a flush draw. I bet, 4 call. Should I have gone for a checkraise here? I'm pretty sure someone would have bet this flop.
Turn is Qh.
I bet again, 2 callers left. Should I have checkraised here?
River is a 6h.
Now I check, BB bets, 3rd person folds (was probably on a flush draw), and I call. BB shows 9T for the str8. Now you see why I wonder if I should have checkraised.
BTW, on the river I suppose I could have bet, since a weaker Ace would call. Moreover, it cost me one bet anyway now. Would anyone have bet again on the river?
Thanks for listening,
Steven
Aksuited doesn't grow on trees so I think raising from the SB (I think you are either BB or you called not checked unless your game has a full small), is probably best in the long haul. Don't worry if people are alerted to your hands, because with five limpers there are a lot of hands you can raise with. But just calling is not the end of the world.
Your flop is excellent. If you had raised preflop I would say just bet it right as you did but since your hand is hidden and the reasoning for not raising preflop was to checkraise, I think checking with the intention of looking at the play and trying to get the most money in the pot is a good choice. With a great hand/flop like this I want to get money in the pot not necessarily checkraise to eliminate players. Besides a turn checkraise is more likely to eliminate anyway.
Betting the turn is just fine as you have now taken command of the hand so I think you should keep it. And yes, I think you should bet the river for value and pay off the raise. In the long haul, its probably best.
Keep in mind that this advice above is made from remote. If your knowledge of the players or the situation is different it may justify a different approach, but straightforward, especially at the lower limits works best in my experience.
Good luck.
I was in the SB and I called, not checked, thank you.
1) Preflop I would definitely raise here. I think you leave too much money on the table my just calling, and if you are afraid of giving away your hand, there are other good multiway hands you can raise with.
2) I can't imagine that T9 would have folded to a check-raise in a low-limit game. The only hands I would expect to be able to drive out are the gutshot type hands, but they only have 3 outs as 1 of their outs makes your flush, so no big deal. I would generally bet hoping someone would raise and I could re-raise.
3) As far as betting the river, I might or might not bet depending on the specific opponents and how likely they are to call with just a small pair. Any card other than a 6, J, 7, or 8 I would almost certainly bet.
4) If your flush got there, there's a temptation to check-raise the river, but I would bet out, hoping to get raised by a smaller flush, so I could re-raise. If you check-raise, a smaller flush might just call and you collect 1 less bet, and if there's no smaller flush out there, it's less likely someone will bet, as people tend to be afraid of flush cards.
-Sean
Yes, if I had rivered a flush, I would bet thinking if anyone made his/her flush as well, they would raise (since I appeared not to be on a flush draw myself).
And yes, I think I should check-raise to get more money in the pot rather than eliminate weak hands.
You did not "check" pre-flop from the small blind since you had to put money in the pot to take a flop. Rather you limped from the small blind. With AK, especially suited, you should raise against limpers. You have the best playing hand under the circumstances and your raise will pull into the pot many extra bets. Over 30% of the time you will flop top pair/top kicker and another 10% of the time you will flop a good draw since you are suited. I would raise every time even if I were unsuited. Of course if you do raise then you have to lead on every street. Given the way you played it, a check-raise attempt might have some merit. However, my own style in multi-handed situations like this is to lead since I do not want to run the risk of giving out free cards to a table full of opponents. I would have played it as you did. I would bet the river since your opponent is more likely to call with a worse hand, usually a weaker Ace, than to have a better hand.
So I guess this implies you would raise with a few more hands as well, such as QQ,KK,AA, and high suited cards?
Yes. I would raise with AA,KK,QQ,AK, and AQ suited.
No, I would have checked the river as well. With 7 players pre-flop there's a reasonable chance someone will make two pair or, as in your case, the nuts.
You definitely should have raised pre-flop. A-Ks is a powerful holding and with that many callers you're building a nice little pot should you hit or flop a draw (which you will close to half the time).
On the flop I don't mind having lots of callers so I bet out as well. If I didn't have the flush draw I may have checked hoping for a late position bet that I could raise, thus thinning the field a bit.
You played it fine.
No, I would have checked the river as well. With 7 players pre-flop there's a reasonable chance someone will make two pair or, as in your case, the nuts.
You definitely should have raised pre-flop. A-Ks is a powerful holding and with that many callers you're building a nice little pot should you hit or flop a draw (which you will close to half the time).
On the flop I don't mind having lots of callers so I bet out as well. If I didn't have the flush draw I may have checked hoping for a late position bet that I could raise, thus thinning the field a bit.
You played it fine, but next time build a pot for your big hands. If you miss it only costs you one small bet but if you hit you get 6 back,
Just for the record, the flop was GREAT, not pretty good. Flopping the best hand with the best draw is about the best thing that can happen to you in a loose holdem game. Had the flop been AAK, you probably would not have stood to make as much $$ as the flop of Ad 7c 8c. True, this time you got drawn out on, but your expected value on the flop was way on the positive side!!
As for your check-raising, perhaps the flop would have been a good time to do so, especially with all those opponents.. Other than that, I like Jim Brier's advice. Always raise BTF in that situation, and once you do, you are pretty much forced to keep leading.
Dave in cali
you had a premium hand in your first two cards. You should have raised in any position before the flop to eliminate the limpers to draw out on you. Your hand, as strong as it was, needs help most of the time from the flop to win, also by itself it decreases in value with more players and increases in valus with less players.
You should have raised preflop, and bet the flop I am not a big fan of check raising the flop unless I think it will get people out on the turn. Check raising the draws will not get them out it will only add value for your top top.
Believe me flopping top top 7 way is no big deal with that flop you are easily looking at 2 pair or even a set so play it strong from the get go until someone tells you they have you beat.
Ok...
I had a discusion yesterday with a fellow player and we argued the value of OFFSUIT connectors in low-limit games.
For example:
You are on the button and are dealt 9-8 off. 3 limp in and you expect the blinds to call making the pot six handed if you call. Do you have a call here?
The argument was made that in HEFAP they advise to fold KJoff, QToff and even QJoff in a multiway pot. Now if you should fold QJ off in a multiway, why play 9-8off. It was then said that the QT and QJ hands tend to make second best hands in multiway and this is the reason you should toss them pre-flop. So if you are smarth enough to either flop an open-end str8 draw with your 9-8 or fold it (usually) even if you flop a pair then you should play it.
Who's right?
Comments Please...
The Prince
In small limit games in multiway pots why wouldn't you play offsuited connectors, especially for small amounts. The payoff of a good flop could be very very nice. The EV may not warrant it, but in such multiway pots with little cost, you could ignore it.
I would play Ten-Nine offsuit or higher but not Nine-Eight offsuit.
Where in HPFAP-New Edition was this argument for mucking Queen-Jack offsuit, King-Jack offsuit, or Queen-Ten offsuit made?
If I can remember it correctly, it is at page 37, third paragraph... :-)
Basically it says that if a couple of players have limped, you sould often throw away hands like KT, QT and QJ, all offsuit.
Then it states the second best hand thing.
But it does state that it depends on the quality of the limpers, if they are good, fold, if they are weak and come in with anything, then play them.
Maybe this is the part we should have addressed. The opponents. But still, say they are good, HEFAP states that you should muck it.
The real question was since offsuit hands play bad in a multiway pot, then is a hand like T-9 off playable only on the value of flopping an open-ended. The hand does not have high strenght, if you flop top pair lots of overcards are scarry. No flush draws...
All of this was assuming you can see the flop for just one bet. I don't think you should ever call a raise with them.
Thanks for the comments and advice.
The Prince
On Page 37, the last paragraph makes it clear that:
"If you are dead last- that is, if you are on the button- and there are already callers you can play hands in Groups 1-7."
QJ offsuit, JT offsuit, and QT offsuit are Group 5 and Group 6 hands so I believe the HPFAP advice would be to limp in here from the button.
In the previous paragraph it states that you should often throw these hands away after several early or middle limpers come in. However, this assumes these limpers are solid players who only limp with hands like AJ offsuit, KQ offsuit, QJ suited, JT suited, KJ offsuit, etc. This paragraph concludes by stating that against bad players who come in with many hands then these hands are playable. I believe that in all but the toughest games usually found at the higher limits, the HPFAP advice would be to limp in with Group 5 and Group 6 hands after several players limp.
You are correct in stating that these hands should be folded for a raise.
n/t
generally speaking, I concur. few players in So. Calif. low-limit games pay much attention to position and will therefore limp in with Q-4suited or Axunsuited from everywhere and anywhere. the games in Vegas can be tighter (which means one can occasionally get away with a bluff!).
I am beginning to think that there is never a reason to slow play in low limit hold 'em.
I was playing at Harrah's East Chicago, 4-8 Hold 'em. I'm in middle position with pocket 10s and raise pre flop, 5 callers.
Flop is 10-9-3 rainbow. There's a bet, call, I call and 2 more calls. I was thinking of raising here but since I raised pre flop, I thought I would lose everyone in the hand. Turn is a rag, a 6 I believe. There's a bet, fold, I raise, a fold and a call.
River is a jack, no flush on the board. I bet and get raised. I call and see a gentleman turn over K-Q off.
In hindsight, I guess I should have raised after the flop but if this guy is going to call a raise with only a gutshot straight on the turn, he is probably going to call a raise with a gut shot straight on the flop. Looking back at the money in the pot, maybe his call on the turn wasn't so bad.
here is my rule of thumb for postflop slowplays. never slowplay unless you have two people betting for you. if you have a monster you should get at least two bets on every street.
in this case, you already had a bunch of people in who were going to call your raise. you should have raised the flop, but you probably still would have lost the pot.
preflop i look at how many bets i am giving up compared to how many bets i can trick them out of with a little deception. i don't 3 bet from the bb with AA vs 2 opp, but i do vs 5 opp.
scott
>in this case, you already had a bunch of people in who >were going to call your raise. you should have >raised the flop, but you probably still would have >lost the pot.
It just seemed to me that if I raise pre flop and then raise again with a 10-9-3 flop, I am screaming "TRIPS".
well, maybe you are. i am not going to tell you what your image is. but, when i raise limpers and then raise a T93 flop, i am not screaming trips. i would definitely play AA, KK, QQ that way. i may play JJ that way. i may play AK that way depending on exactly what happened on the flop before it got to me. and i would sometimes play KQ that way depending on who the limpers were and who was in late position.
but i would be much more likely to have an overpair than a set. i think you would be too. and when you factor in that bad players always put you on hands they can beat, expect to be called down. you know they all think "everyone who raises preflop has AK unless an A or K flop, in which case they have the biggest underpair to the board." you will usually just lose a lot of bets when you slowplay and go on to win the pot. loose players want to call. they can't call if you don't bet, can they?
scott
Your original hypothesis is true, there really isn't a good time to slow play at the lower limits. If you raised the flop bet you wouldn't lose anyone who would have called one bet. They just will not believe you. Most of the time when you raise in a game like this they put you on AK or AQ and feel you are just betting overcards with a flop like that.
Raise the flop, reraise if you get the chance and bet at every opportunity with your top set. You still might have lost this hand as some hang on if there's even one card in the deck to help them, but they will also hold on with any other piece of the flop as well. Make them pay to chase.
I agree.
I think slowplaying is almost never correct in low limit hold em.
I will vary my play only if I think more than two people at the table are actually paying attention to what I am doing.
Most of the time, there is one person at the table who can put me on a hand and gets out of the way when I am in a pot. The other 5 don't even remember who raised preflop after the turn card hits.
Of course, I have broken this rule and tried slowplaying a set or two to get more money out of it. It almost always backfired, most of the time turning out like your result. The times I did win, everyone just checked along.
The one time slowplaying did work for me:
I had AA in the SB and raised preflop. 3 callers.
Flop: AJT Turn:T River:x
Betting was capped on the flop and turn (with me just calling!) and I 3-bet the river with the two other boats calling.
One guy had AT and another had JT. The other stayed in through the flop AND turn with a straight.
This, of course, was an extreme example.
There really never is a good time to slowplay - I agree with the other posters, esp. what small cap scott said, as far as the # of players is concerned.
The ONLY time I may consider a slowplay in the situation you described is with an extremely uncoordinated board. The 9-10 on your board would make me play it fast, as it is not unlikely for JQ, 78, even J8 (Hey, it's sooted!) to be out there at these limits. If the 9 were a 6, AND rainbow, I may wait until the turn to come alive.
One of the criterion for slowplaying is that the free card you're giving must be able to make a second-best hand out there. When there's any sort of draw on the board (whether it be a straight or a flush), keep on popping your top set it until the cows come home. It's not uncommon for people to be holding QJ, 87, or even J8 here (especially the last two, believe it or not).
here is my rule of thumb in low limit. BET... Never stop betting if you have the best hand. If you bet and get raised re-raise (on every street). In low limit people make incorrect calls... they will call you often with bottom pair. There is no reason to slow-play in lower limits. If I flop quads I bet it.
Derrick
$3-6 is all about brute force, just bet if you've got it.
Your raise will not scream TRIPS it will scream OVERPAIR and as any $3-6 player knows that can be beaten. You would also raise the flop with an overpair right? Just think of how you will feel if a 3 comes on the turn and some guy check raises you with his K3.
Your smooth call and pop on the turn is an alarm bell even for $3-6 players that you have a monster so you won't make a lot more money by doing this. Plus on the turn you miss out on making the runner-runners pay. Ever see somebody call $9 on the flop then fold for $6 on the turn when a blank hits? :)
By raising you accomplish two things: you build yourself a pot AND protect it from the longshot draws. In your case maybe he would have called and you would have lost anyways, but if that becomes routine then you will have all his money in no time.
Jim Roy
He is not calling with just a gutshot he is calling with two overcards... since the pre-flop raiser is did not raise the flop he has reason to believe his overcards may also be good giving him potentially 10 outs to win the hand... ten outs is more then a flush or open ended str8 draw. Remember he has no reason to believe you have a set.
By the turn the pot is so bloated that most any low limit player will call.
sean
Or may be something better?
It's 6-12. There's a couple of loose players, a calling station, and the general mix you would expect in a LA casino. I'm 3rd to act and have AKo. Everyone is in to me, I raise. 7 players see the flop (TQ2 rainbow) for 2 bets. It's checked to me - I check hoping for a free card to draw to my inside nut straight. Someone bets after me and 4 players are in for one bet when it gets back to me with 2 still to act after me. I make what in retrospect appears to be an obvious call (theres way more than 33 chips in the pot and a re-raise is not likely). 5 players see the turn, J - no flush possible. It's checked to me and I bet. some people fold and then another player re-raises. There's some more folds and then it gets to the calling station on my immediate right. He's thinking about calling a double bet. I'm thinking - if he calls, I'm re-raising. He calls. I re-raise. Original raiser thinks a while and calls. Calling station calls. There's about 300 in the pot at this time. River comes a Q. Calling station immediately bets! I know he has the boat, but I call. He shows the boat (he has QJ), other player shows K9.
Now I'm thinking that on the turn when calling station was considering calling two bets I should have said to him "I'm going to re-raise" and showed my cards (I have the nut straight). I think he would have folded and the other guy would definitely have folded. It's kind of sneaky play, but as DS and MM say, when the pots big, you should do whatever you can to win right then and there!
What do you think?
Thanks,
-Michael
With another player in the pot, I don't like that move at all. I've heard that in some casinos this play will kill your hand. Does anyone know if that's true?
I think it would be unethical and in some places kill your hand. If that doesn't pursuade you...
You want him to call. He's making a mistake and you are in the process of punishing it. You got one guy with 3 outs for half the pot, and another with 4 for the pot; going into the turn wouldn't you be happy to know that each is going to put in 3 bets to your 3 bets towards a pot containing 9.5 bets?
The move is illegal and can get you thrown out. You cannot unduly "influence future action" like this.
How come this question only arises when the favorite hand loses? Hind sight is 20/20. The odds were in your favor and so, the end result not withstanding, this would not only have been an unethical move, but a foolish one.
if everyone showed their cards and everyone knew you would reraise and the ignorant straight would call drawing dead, then his top two pair is getting 15.5-3 for his 4 outer. that is not good odds. he made a mathematical mistake by calling. since the other opponent was drawing dead (well, 3 outs to tie), you gain all the expected value QJ loses.
you played it fine, although i might have bet the flop to try to make my pair outs good.
scott
Yeah, yeah, afterwards one is always cleverer than before, but thatīs not the way it works. You played well and got sucked out, itīs as simple as that.
I'll jump on the "that would be an unethical move" bandwagon and point out to you that the "calling station's" mistake is not a very big one mathematically and you wouldn't mind him folding if you knew what he held.
Playing in a .25-.75 blind, No Limit home game last night. Everyone bought in for $25.00. At this point I have about $35.00.
I am in SB. Folded around to me. I see AhKd and raise 5.00. BB calls!
Flop: 9h7h3h
I bet 5.00, my opponent raises 5.00. I call.
turn is a rag, maybe 5s.
I check, my opponent puts it all in (15.00).
I think for a long time and fold.
Should I have folded? What does he have?
KJS
Before I answer the questions you asked, I will suggest that you look at the way you bet in a no-limit game. Your initial bet of $5.00 is very large when compared to the size of the blinds. First in, I would tend to raise less than this, perhaps as much as $3, but not more than that. Second, on the flop of rags holding the nut heart, when you bet, you should have bet more. There was $11.00 in the pot and you bet $5. Under betting the pot by this much is a dangerous practice. Your opponent makes an odd play as well by raising $5. I probably would have moved in on him.
However, your question is should you have called, and what did he hold. You were getting 3:1 on your call, so my question to you was, when you were thinking, what were you thinking about? I don't mean that as a criticism, but rather, what was your thought process? The decision is purely mathematical based on what you believe your opponent to have. My guess is that he held something like pocket jacks with the jack of hearts, but without knowing the player that is very speculative. However, if I were there and I read your opponent to have something like jacks with the jack of hearts, I would know that I had 14 winners. Since 30:14 is smaller than 3:1 I would call.
Just returned from a 4 day trip to vegas. Got in four poker sessions and never lost. However, trying to analyze different plays to see if I maximized my wins there is one that bothers me that i would appreciate opinions on.
3-6 holdem at the Mirage. Hand came up about 30 minutes after I sat down so my read on the players is still not complete. Game appears to be loose passive. 3 callers of the blinds and I am two off the button. I call with Ks-6s. This is a marginal call but given the nature of the game, I can expect it to be six handed including the buttons so I feel the odds justify it. One other late position player and the button calls also. Small blind actually folds. Flop is Qs-6c-2d. Checked around to the button who bets. Two callers to me. Pot is laying 10-1 at this point.I have a backdoor flush draw and 2nd pair. I call. Player between the button and myself call. Turn is Jc. Checked around again to the bettor who fires. Same two callers. I expect the player between me and the bettor to call giving me 7 to one odds. I call as does he. River is 3d. Check to the bettor who bets. All fold to me. Player between me and bettor appears ready to fold. My initial reaction is bettor has Qs or higher and I fold.
Now, thinking about it, I am not sure this was the right move. Here is what I know about the button at this point. He appears agressive having raised several times in the 1/2 hour I am there. The three pots he has won, he did so without a showdown. The pot has over 11 big bets at this point. I am wondering if the size of it justified a call with 3rd pair.
On the flop there is $28 in the pot and it costs you $3 to play your 5 outer (Any King or Six). A 5 outer is about an 8:1 shot and you are getting almost 10:1 pot odds. I agree with your call. On the turn there is $49 in the pot and it costs you $6 to continue to draw to your 5 outer. Again you appear to have a call. However, with a two flush on the board the King of Clubs or the Six of Clubs could give someone a Club flush so you may have less than 5 outs. However, you will probably pick up another $6 on the turn when the player behind you calls so maybe your odds are more like $55:$6 or 9:1. You also rate to collect a bet or two at the river if you hit. I think you have a marginal call on the turn. When a blank comes at the river I would fold because the button bet the flop,the turn, and now the river which indicates that he has a better hand than a pair of Sixes.
On the flop I would have bet my 2nd pair backdoor flush in late position. Checking and calling is okay.
Now the turn brings no help. This is where I see a lot of players make mistakes. You called the flop assuming you were behind and looking for a 6 (woohoo), a K (okay), or a spade. You got none of the above and are now beat by a wider variety of hands. The button could have K-Q or K-J and have you drawing very slim. Also the King could finish off a str8 or a flush for someone. Why continue?
If I call the turn I definitely call the river. But the only way I'm still in is if I think there is a reasonable chance I'm ahead.
Betting the flop will make the play of this hand much easier. It sounds like you're beaten on the river, given the texture of the flop, however, I might pay off the bet just because no one has ever shown the bettor any resistence and the pot is large. Heck, he may have a weaker 6!
How much can you earn per hour at paradisepoker when you play holdem 2-4, 3-6 and 5-10 dollars?
thanks Johan
I believe you can make $8 per hour at 3/6 hold'em. That is the lavel I play at there. You must be very good.