![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
I agree I did lose too much, but I've never been raised preflop by someone with 35. Therefore, when I see a flop of 3 5 9, I think I'm in good shape.
Jeff
You overplayed your hand ridiculously. He should have shown you three nines or something and taken the pot with a little dignity.
The $2-$4 game I have been playing in has been very difficult for me to beat. I selected the game because it was so loose, but now I'm thinking it is too loose. Is this possible? What I mean is that 4-6 people will see the flop, regardless of a raise. Raises are rare, but if they occur, it doesn't seem to scare many off. The problem is that they play anything suited, any connectors, and basically any face card. If there are two of the suit on the flop, or that face card, they will call and raise until the river. I play tight and had some suited started hands for the big payoff possibility. However, it seems like whenever I get top pair, top two pair, or a flush draw, I pay off to the river only to get marginally beat by a kicker or they draw a flush/straight. Any advice? I win maybe half the time but my wins are a lot smaller than my losses. I know I should be able to beat these limits before I move up. Thanks.
Jeff
I used to get crushed in these kinds of games. I now just use the Loose and Wild games advice from HPFAP-21 and I do great in them.
Sure, it's a crapshoot because you just have to wait for premium cards to come around, and yes, you get drawn out on a LOT, but you can make some serious cash in a game like this.
The thing you must remember is that you do NOT want to be one of the suckout artists on a table like this screaming for "ONE MORE CLUB!!!" or playing top pair with a bad kicker. Calling to the river just costs you too much when you miss. You always want to the in the lead punishing the chasers for their draws.
I was in a game like this recently playing 3/6. I was stuck $160 after 2 hours because of the suckouts (lost to T7 suited, J4 suited,...on and on), but the cards came around, the river dried up for them and I ended up winning $200. Not bad for a 5 hour session.
A good example was a hand where I had QQ on the button, raised and got 5 callers. The flop was Ac9c6s. BB bet, I raised, all called. Turn was a 4s. I bet. all call.
River was 2s! All check to me.
I said "All your club and straight draws missed!" and bet. The 3 people on club draws folded immediately and two goofballs with Ax offsuit folded because they hadn't paired their trash and were sure they were outkicked.
I had been playing very tight so even the loose players didn't call me on the river and they chucked in the winner.
I played in a near by Indian Casino the other night to avoid the ugly button fee at the casino I normally play at.
I got in this crazy 3-6 game (only game going) where most players were posting live bets. I mean it was live 9 or 12 in most hands and, many times it was raised to 15. Crazy stuff.
The player to my immediate right would 99% of the time make it live 6 when the BB was to his right. He kept trying to get me to make it live 9, which I never did because I could not think of any good reason to do so. Is there? Other than just trying to make a large pot how can you justify this play? There is no guarantee that your cards will even be playable.
Anyway I will be going back to see if this kind of action is normal there. I’ll have to admit it was kind of fun playing for those huge pots and getting to pick and choose which ones to go after based on my cards and position.
What would be a good strategy for a game of this type? Any help would be appreciated.
Rich
Live straddles, especially three bets and four bets, are really BAD poker. There is NO good reason to do this, except for perhaps the occasional image play with players whom you see often. When I say the OCCASIONAL image play, let me say that in two years of playing casino poker, I have made a live straddle three times. It's just plain dumb to put multiple bets into the pot, out of position, without having seen your cards!
Now if your opponents are routinely doing this, you can select which hands to play and make sure to reraise them most of the time and only play good hands. But beware, this type of crazy game has a very high variance and you will experience large swings. Not for the short bankrolled or faint of heart. Many pots will be a crapshoot since few will fold. Your expectation will be small and your variance very high. Sometimes it is better to forget these crazy games and find a nice loose passive game without so much senseless raising.
Another thing, play TIGHT BTF when it is multiple bets. Pairs, HIGH suited connectors, AK, AQ, are playable, fold KTo, 56s, etc.... Play big cards and hands that have big potential to win large pots.
dave in cali
I have just added a looo...ooong article to my web page about my lousy record in low-limit hold'em and some changes I propose to make to my game. Click on this when you've got about ten minutes for reading, and give me your comments.
Fixing the Leaks in My Hold'em Game by Dick
Thanks, Dick
Hey, Dick why don't you E-Mail me and let me send you my quiz. The quiz consists of 58 problems covering pre-flop play, play on the flop, on the turn, and at the river. It consists of two word documents. The first is the quiz itself and the second is the solutions manual which contain what I believe are the correct answers. I recommend you first take the quiz and then compare your answers to mine in the solutions manual. I have had about 50 people take the quiz and the scores range from 41 to 78 with an average of around 55. I have not played much low limit in the past two years but when I did I played about 400 hours and won a little over $5000. I played $3-$6, $4-$8, and $6-$12 mostly. It will be fun and it might even help.
Jim,
Can I get a copy of your "Quiz".
m7h1j5@aol.com
Thanks,
MJ
(n/t)
MJ
Hi Jim, would like a copy of the quiz if you get a chance
hiboris@hotmail.com
(n/t)
Holy Smokes! I highly recommend this quiz to beginners (me). I read S&M HE books before playing in the local card room so fortunately I wasn't a complete live one. So far I've managed to stay just slightly ahead but in retrospect I think that was only because of other players being extremely loose and passive, thereby paying me off when I hit a hand, and a pretty good run of cards. hopefully this quiz will help to reduce the yo-yo movements of my stack. Thanks Jim
btw, i got a 48.
Nice self-assesmant.
Your calculation of standard deviation is almost certainly wrong. in a 3-6 game it is likely to be at least $60/hour.
-Fred-
1. GD's post about respecting the passive better coming to life has saved me many big bets. The vast majority of them on the TURN, not the river. Where in the past I would call with short odds or near even odds, I now often fold. The river call is often correct.
2. Value-betting the river is essential IMO to beating low-limit poker. The number of times you get paid-off will far exceed the number of suck-outs. This change alone could move you into the black.
3. GD made another post about limping with speculative hands from early position. Yeah, sometimes ya woulda won a big one, but in the long run playing weak starting-hands up front is a geyser. Play them when the situation warrants - late with lots of limpers.
4. I don't agree with becoming less agressive when you catch a good bit of the flop. You don't talk about flop-texture in your post and I really think this is the key element when deciding to bet your 2nd pair.
5. For me, Abdul's strategy re: Big un-suited cards in a loose-passive low-limit game, has been gold. Raise/re-raise pre-flop far more often than you limp. If I limp early with AKo, it is because I'm anticipating the chance to three-bet.
6. As long as you are earning as much as you can from your winners - bet your strong holdings aggressively - playing few hands should not be a problem.
hope that helps, spitball
Well if you stopped tipping you'd probably be in the black, but that's probably not the best thing to do to change in your game...
I think you've done an excellent job at self-anaylsis and you should focus on points 3,4, and 5.
Value betting the river is extremely important. Remember that most books are written about mid-limit games. At low limit you have so many weak opponents that it is more often correct to bet on the river. You may want to categorize your opponents and value bet them based on what sort of hands they tend to play. Think of what their starting requirements are likely to be. You'll find that you will be beating them on kickers quite often when you both have top pair. Your average low limit player wont throw away top pair no matter what his kicker, make them pay. The times they have you beat will be far fewer than when you have them beat and if they are passive they probably wont raise your bet anyway.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
Dick,I can relate to your experience.I've got about 600 hrs,play in loose passive games,I'm beating the other players but rake/jpot/tips leave me down a small amount.Recently,I re-evaluated my game,my perceived leaks are very similiar to yours.I came to the conclusion that I'm not aggressive enough.Playing not to lose rather than to win.I've had 2 really bad runs(120 hrs and 60 hrs)that effected my mind set,when I first started I was much more aggressive and did well.Recently read Roy Cooke's book he mentioned large part of earn in low limit is tells,ability to read others.I am now focusing on that rather than just playing my cards. Good Luck
For now, I am simply reminding myself of the virtues of patience and discipline.
Dick,
You know the great factor the rake can have on profit. Once you get the leaks fixed then I would move up and get out of the 3-6, 4-8 world and head to the 6-12, 8-16, 10-20.
I have read and reread the Abdul pre-flop play and would sugest that you MUST raise pre-flop. Make the limpers pay. Look what it does to you.
Think of it this way
1) You like to "sliiide" in with the A8s form 5 or 6 off the button(must be a very passive game)pay that one tiny bet then BANG!! someone pops it with AQ let's say. Your sitting there thinking "well I got caught" now I have to pay up to see the flop.
You know the feeling. You need to make the limpers pay and get that feeling when YOU have the big cards. Your letting them in to cheap. RAISE!!
Best of it !!
MJ
MJ, what a great way of making this point for me! If, when I try to limp in with a speculative hand (which is just what my loose opponents are doing all the time), and I hate it when a high-card hand raises me, then it must be right for me to raise them when it is me who has the high card hand.
I think I've got the concept now.
Dick
Dick,
Great post, I have just had the time to read it.
Here is a possible leak (I am working on it in my game) which is horrible, costly, and you do not see the 20-40 players (who win) with it:
You are leading on the turn with A8s, for instance, and someone check raises a turn with 3 of another suit, or a straight possible (A654). The raiser is a good but not tricky player. Do you have a chance you are winning? I have counted the times when I have won against this (or worse when the raise comes from a better player who waited til the river) and I know of one time (1!) where I won of about 500, and that's when my Axs got an onpair board to beat the other guys j7 (two pair on the flop) on board. Otherwise I have lost to this obviously better hand so many times (at low limits) that I simply want to get away from the check raise or raise pronto. I often will not lead with a scary board to avoid this hit. This has helped my game a lot, but I need to also not get run over...this is hard to do right...
Mark
I am playing in a seven handed 3-6 full kill HE game tonight. The hand is a kill with the kill in late position. I am the big blind. Everyone folds to one off the kill who raises. I have played with this player before (This is his first hand joining the table tonight) and he is fairly loose with his raises. The kill calls, button folds and SB folds. I have KQ spades. I three bet. How many of you would three bet here?
The raiser re-raises and the kill calls. I call. The flop comes K-6-5 one spade. I bet out. The raiser raises and kill folds. I call. The turn is another spade. I check, pre-flop raiser bets and I call. The river is another spade not pairing the board. I bet out. Pre-flop raiser raises. I re-raise. He re-raises and re-raise again. He calls. I show the 2nd nut flush and he shows three kings.
I am curious as to how others would have played this hand.
I would have just called preflop raises instead of 3-betting.
Otherwise, I probably would have played it the same.
OK, three betting BTF is not recommended, at least not by me, with KQs. The fact that you got capped should drive this point home.
On the flop, you bet out and get raised, then you call, this is OK. You have to think that you may be beat here, but you can't fold yet.
On the turn you pick up a flush draw, second nut. I would probably just check-call like you did, so this is OK.
On the river, when he four bets you, I would not reraise again. I think you got exceptionally lucky on this hand and really overplayed it, especially BTF. KQs against a legitimate raise is not a reraising hand, and really is not very strong at all. you got lucky with the runner-runner flush, without which you would have lost a lot of $$.
dave in cali
This has happened to me pretty often lately and I'm wondering how others would handle it.
Hand 1: 5-10 I'm 2 off the button with AdKh. UTG limps, all fold to 3 off the button who calls, I raise and the blinds are in as is everyone else.
Flop: 4c Kd 9h.
UTG bets out fold to me I raise. BB calls, UTG calls. 3 left.
Turn 2s
UTG bets out. What's my play?
Hand 2: I'm in MP 4 off the button with Ad9d. 2 callers before me, I call, two after me plus the bb.
Flop is 2h 9c 7s. bb bets, 2 calls, I raise. all fold to bb who calls the rest call.
Turn is 5d.
bb bets all fold to me. What's my play?
Try to provide a player profile next time, because I'm in the dark here.
Hand 1: Raise on the turn. You raised pre-flop in late position with only two callers in, and this translates to most players as a steal. I figure this guy played a suited king out of position and has you pegged for garbage. If you miss the Ace on the river and he bets into you again, just call.
Hand 2: This is a difficult hand to play. I'd call it down, he probably has an ugly two pair. Even though you have top pair/top kick, it's kind of snaggle toothed.
One more thing: The blinds can have anything. Without a pre-flop raise, it's nearly impossible to tell how strong they are.
In the first hand I would be inclined to raise the turn. You have made it look like you are either stealing or trying to buy a free card, and the bettor probably has a worse king than you and doesn't want to give you a free card. Raise.
Second hand, you are probably beaten by two trash pair. I might call it down anyway, but I don't think I would raise here. Save the bet. You still have some outs (unless he has a straight), so you have to at least see the river. Keep in mind that the blinds could have anything since it wasn't raised BTF.
dave in cali
Both those hands depend on the bettor. Is he a rock who only bets the nuts? Is he a nut who'll bet anything? The first hand you have less to worry about than the second because there is no str8 available, the flop is uncoordinated, and UTG (not a blind is betting) so chances are he doesn't have 9-2 or K-4 (although you can't rule it out in LL). The second hand a possible straight has hit and your hand is not as strong (pocket tens or better beat it).
Given that you raised pre-flop, raised on the flop and he is still betting into you chances are you are beat in hand #1. A fold isn't terrible but I probably call him down. Hand #2 I fold without a worry.
The game is 3-6 hold 'em w/ a full kill,it is my kill and I have been dominating(up about 3 racks at this pt) the game along with another fellow who I know to be a Very Good player that usually plays a bit higher(he has about 500 in front of him). I am on the button and there are two callers to me,I look down to see KK, and I raise, the small blind (VG player) re-raises me, one of the two Middle pos players calls, the other drops, I cap it and the MP folds! (um can you say call for pot odds>?!?!) sm calls, we take the flop heads up it comes A-K-7 rainbow, sb checks I bet, at this point I put him on a pair of Q's J's or T's, he calls, turn comes a blank, I hit it again, and he mucks, flashing 10h-10s, I flash him my set and take down a nice pot. Any comments, I feel I may I have lost a few bets, but at the same time, I had been the victim of some bad suckouts over the course of the night so was just starting to get my confidence back....Good news was when I finished that night I cashed out a rack o red and two racks o white! (700+ dollars!) Comments appreciated!
I certainly do NOT think you missed any bets. Of course you bet at every opportunity with a hand like that. Most players would check hoping to get a raise in later on. I believe that is a horrible way to play. Always win the pot when you can. Also, most of the time in a lower limit game players will call anyway...just earning you more money. I would have played it just like you did.
I would not have showed my cards to anyone without getting called.
I agree with Iowa, and somewhat with Dan C. Show your cards ONLY if you are trying to harden your image as a good player, not to make VG Player feel good about his lay down. Just as important as knowing the other players is knowing how they view YOU as a player.
That is exactly what I was trying to do, is solidify my image a bit with that, although I am friendly with VG player, I could care less how he feels about his laydown as long as I take the pot!
Keep flopping Aces
JRounder
It's not VG player I would have been concerned with.
At almost every table I play at, there is at least one person who has a burning desire to see every winning hand. If he is in at the river and someone calls, he folds - if no one calls, he calls regardless of his hand.
Showing or flashing big hands that are not called simply reduces that type of player's motivation for calling on the river with a busted hand.
You are heads-up against a good player who is sure to fold if drawing dead, doesn't have a gut shot, and may have a set of Aces. Unless he has specifically AK he is drawing dead. Unless you feel he may HAVE a stiff A like AQ AND will check-and-call you down with it, this looks like a great time to represent a under-pair like QQ, check, and induce a bluff on the river.
Don't flash him your cards, bone-head. Tell him you had AT and got lucky.
- Louie
When he just calls your flop bet, your read of him is probably pretty good. You might want to try and induce a river bluff by representing an underpair yourself and checking the turn. However, it is not all bad to just bet your hand, because in this type of game, you never know what you are up against. You don't want to give anyone with a gutshot a free chance to outdraw you, so when it doubt, bet it out.
dave in cali
Game is 3-6 with a kill, I have just gotten into the game, bought in for a rack, folded my first 4-5 hands, look down and in middle pos. I find JJ, I raise it when it gets to me we take the flop with 4 handed, it comes down K-J-4 rainbow, its bet out of the sb, I raise it, fold to the button, button calls sb calls, we take it 3 handed, turn is blank, checked to me, I bet it, two callers, river comes the Qs, sb checks I bet, button raises, sb folds, I reraise, get popped again,i call and button turns over 9-10os for the Damned gutshot, I was pretty upset, as the last pots I had seen her take were with 35os, and even (NO LIE) 9-3diamonds in mp. I got up and walked it off, came back and cashed out a winner, but...How did I play this hand? Personally I thought I played it well, but as the sub. line says.,...was it just a suck out or did i do somethign wrong?
The only thing you did wrong was lose two bets too many. When 3/5 of Broadway hit on the river you have to slow up just a bit. If it was the third card of a suit would you have repopped it?
I completely disagree. The guy who raised would most likely have raised with two pair also. I think you raise as JRounder did. One should never played scared in a hold em game. If you lose the hand, as JRounder did, you just play the next hand.
This is the life a low limit player. I play in two games....3-6 kill and 20-40 half kill. Happens in both games. What can you say? You had the entire deck except 4 cards. Never get upset about that sort of thing
when raised on the river you have a crying call since it made a gutshot. if it had made an open ender you can fold, but i would have check-called. i mean, they have to be in there with something.
brad
Shit happens.
I might have slowed down on the turn depending on the type of player the button was.
Not much you can do. Next hand.
I meant I might have slowed down on the river, not the turn.
Sorry.
On the river comes the third card to a straight, your in 3-6 game. You must ask the questions with each bet, what do they have, what do they think I have?
In low limts, if they can make a hand, they will call. It's hard to play JJJ with fear, but common sense goes a long way. If you check the river and just call, you save two bets. How much did you think you would have made if they missed their hands and you bet? They would have mucked. Your bet was risky and your re-raise was bad judgement.
Remember, big cards beat little cards, and most people arn't bluffing.
Respectfully, The Suburban Poker Man
So she'll call a raise with any gut shot. There are 16 ATs and 16 T9s in the deck, for 32 combinations that beat you (not counting 3 unlikely QQs). SB sure looks like he has a K, so there are only 8 KQs and 4 QJs you can beat (not counting 12 unlikely Q4s).
When at even money this is a bad raise (its about 32:12 against). Since the raise re-opens the betting you are often laying close to 2:1 when you DO raise.
Terrible raise; there just aren't nearly enough hands she'll raise with that you can beat.
I'm a little shocked that some advise not betting this hand for value on the river; even the mighty Suberban Poker Man who probably doesn't remember "The Jester" from the Hollywood casino.
- Louie
Louie is right here, you bet the river for value with your JJ/J. However, don't reraise if raised, make a crying call. your river bet will be called by a worse hand often enough to make it worth betting for value, but you certainly don't have a reraising hand with three broadway cards out there.
dave in cali
You played it fine until the river. You raised properly and charged the gutshot the max to try and draw out on you, but when you get raised on the river, make a crying call. you lost two extra big bets unnecessarily. It was a suckout but you lost more than you should have by reraising the river without the nuts or even close to it.
dave in cali
Same game, but better, more fish...other table breaks, and ours fills, I have two fish on either side of me. left is someone that can be referred to as a walking atm, the right is a college kid who is out of his league (I am a college kid too! but my studies are on poker! lol) its a kill pot, I am one off the button with As6s, one caller out of early position and folded around to CK (college kid) who raises, I call b/c of the game being so loose, fully prepared to abandon on the flop, but with the people in the pot I like my hand. ATM on the button calls, and the BB's kill calls Flop comes Ah6h4s, bet out by BB, Early player folds, college kid calls I raise, ATM calls BB raises all in calls all the way around. Turn is Ac, College kid bets into my raise, i raise him, ATm calls, CK calls, river is a small heart, CK checks I bet ATM calls, CK calls, Ck shows AKD, ATM shows a pair of fours (no joke!) i take the side, BB shows KQh for nut flush....my boat takes it down....what do you think of the way I played this? Comments appreciated
I am really pleased that you won the hand...however, I do not think that the call of a raise with A6 suited is a very good call. You will have to adjust that call as you play against toucher competition.
I agree that A6s calling a raise is risky business. But it sounds like you had a good read on the table. How would you have played the hand if only the A's showed up and no six? Could you have released the hand?
Respectfully, The Suburban Poker Man
P.S. What's your GPA at Hold'em Univesity?
:)you guys are great over here with your posts, I appreciate the input as I want to get better! if only the ace came and there was action, I would have definitely laid it down had there been only an Ace in the flop and no flush draw. I have been striving to make laying down hands much easier, as Axs is only good if you get two pair or a flush draw, and under normal conditions I don't play anything less than A9s unless its late pos. or a loose game.
I don't like your call BTF. There is one limper and now it is raised, you will often have a dominated hand in this situation. Despite the nature of the game, I would strongly consider folding this holding in this situation.
After the flop, you played correctly all the way. You couldn't have known that you were beat on the flop, so I like your raise. When the BB raised again all in, I would have capped it, or at least completed the bet (you didn't say how much he raised). The reason for this is that the BB will be going all-in anyway in this situation, so his raise doesn't necessarily mean you are beat. With top two and a flush draw out there, make the draws pay.
Turn and river were textbook, so no comment there.
dave in cali
Great hand, but realize how lucky you got to win. Cold calling a raise with A-6 is a sure loser, especially in a small pot. What hand did you think CK had that you were a favorite against? Would you have liked theplay as much if a king or 4 had come on the river?
Justin, is that you?
I play 6-12 in the same casino as Larry, Doc, and Tommy Angelo. It's a wild California ride, that's for sure. I want advice on how to reduce variance. I will sacrifice some profit / dump some odds-on calls and bets to do this. The typical field is 7-8 players actually seated with 5 callers pre-flop on average and perhaps 1 in 3 pots raised pre-flop. It is COMMON for all but one player to call on the flop. Seems a dream, right? The problem is the suckout rate gets extraordinary with that many hands around and getting $300 down without really making a mistake deeply bothers me. (6-12's in my budget but I'm fiscally very conservative so losses get emotional early).
My play when not on tilt is solid-average. I can read players pretty well but cannot remember session to session much about how they played (or their names)with the exception of a few standouts. I do best at predicting whether players who have yet to act will call, fold, or raise and use this to make a lot of decisions on whether to call the flop for inside straight draws, etc. Odds calculations are straightforward for me.
What specifically can I do to reduce variance? Possibilities:
1. Never go for an inside straight unless the flop is rainbow and I've got overcard nuts (what if the pot's giving 16 to 1 for the 10.75 to 1 already? 20 to 1? 25 to 1? It happens!)
2. Ignore single flush cards. E.g. call on button for half a bet (the take plays) with A9s, get an Ac Ts 8h flop and someone bets up front. (Before you say that's crazy anyway, note that about half the players will play any ace down to A5 or A4 even if the pot was raised pre-flop). Dump if the other two cards are suited or connect?
3. Never play suited kings below KTs. I do this with the button for the half bet if there are 4 callers in front of me and neither blind looks to raise.
4. Reduce aggression with hands below three of a kind on the turn. I hate this idea because value betting top pair / ace kicker or two pair is so important to solid poker. Heck, I probably wouldn't do this if Sklansky told me to.
5. Raise flush draws and straight draws for value less. I already demand at least 3 expected callers on the flop and often won't do it without the ace.
There are others, but y'all know them.
Please, advise me.
P.S> Two confessions that're on my mind. Last Saturday I lost $500 in 6 hours due to 17 consecutive missed flops (the majority to AQ and AK) and the usual gutshot suckouts, etc. It was kind of funny in retrospect. So, anyway, I started chatting about odds so others could hear me (without criticizing anyone) and actually folded aces face up on the turn (painful to admit that one - people just don't forget a laydown like that - I'll have to draw out with 9-4s a couple of times to overcome that image). Help!
this may sound dumb, but the best way to reduce variance is to play enough so that EV becomes predominant. play your best game or quit, dont play in bad games, play a lot, and study and improve and think about your game.
also i think the fact that youre worried about this is a symptom of weak nerves which can be cured by more experience.
its analagous to slowly wading into a pool vs just jumping in. you need to build up your nerves and self control by really playing a lot and learning to play your best at all times.
soon youll realize that almost everyone else is getting unbalanced at the slightest and most mundane provocations (dealer premature burn and turn, for example) , while you do not.
for example, tonight i played in a 6-12 he game similiar to yours, lost almost 500 by basically getting sucked out on (gutshots who called 2 bets cold on flop( 2c5c !), etc. and started to get edgy so i left the game got up and went for a walk.
a little later (45 minutes), i played in a good but very aggressive 20-40 holdem game. in a key heads up hand, i have AK and am check-raised on the Qxx flop, bet into on the turn, then checked to on the river. i bet the river and won without a showdown. obviously i had a line on this player, but still, it took strong nerves to play , and that is my point. you need to develop strong nerves in order to be able to move up in limits, and this concern with variance is a symptom of weak nerves.
brad
matt here is my best advice. FInd a less wild game the collective outs are gonna kill your bankroll or drive you crazy. If you can't find a better game (one with less maniacs) then cut way down on the hands you are playing.
Forget the 3 card straights and flushes - only draw for the nutz and forget about the pot size making you make BAD decisions about these draws.
If you have to play suited connecteds, Axs and small pairs do it only in the last 2 positions.
If drawing to less than th nutz have other things going for you over card"s" - back door flush or straight with open ended other or a pair on board.
Don't be drawing to just over cards eigther.
Bottom line playing stepford S&M poker in these wild LL games is suicide. Their books have been written for "average" 10-20 and above games.
Depending on the board you can play your good flops aggressivally but watch out this is expensive.
I concur with Rounder. I would look for a less volatile game.
The main reason is that there is almost no chance to bluff in these games which reduces the difference in skill level between good players and average or bad players.
In addition, with the pots so heavily front loaded, there is almost no call that is incorrect if a player has any possible out. This brings the skill level of the bad players up to the level of the good players. The result being that games like this are a card holding contest.
The games are still beatable but you must play very tight and draw only to the nuts. These types of games are the true test of a player's ability to absorb abuse as you get gunned down time after time with your group one holdings.
The skill in these games - in addition to card selection - is knowing when to get away from top pair and when to dump a draw that has become a potential "draw dead" on the turn.
Good luck and play tight.
Read Abdul's poker page....it helped me
One way (probably the best) to reduce variance is to find a more passive game, as others have pointed out.
If you need to lower your variance in a loose game, play tighter before the flop. Many hands don't have that much value preflop so you wouldn't sacrifice much profit by folding some of them. The preflop experts on the forum can help identifying those hands, but they should be many (AJ from early position in one example, I believe). In a tough game, you may need some marginal hands to add deception to your better hands, but in most low limit games it doesn't pay off.
It is easy to adjust your preflop game to lower your variance, but after the flop I think you would do best to just try to play your best tight aggressive game. You will not often be able to identify a play after the flop as marginal. Of course, when you do, go ahead and fold to achieve your goal, but don't let that goal scare you into playing weak poker. Cutting down severely on your aggression on the turn is out of the question. A lot of your advantage lies in extracting bets on the turn when you think you are in the lead.
As for most of your suggestions, I think that they are more a question of "playing correctly" rather than playing to "lower your variance". The answers depend on pot size, the other players' number and perceived hands, and expected future action.
My suggestion is that you play tighter before the flop to reduce variance, and that you continue to work on your game to improve your win rate.
Good luck.
--- Carl
Can anyone recommend a good place for low limit in the Los Angeles area. I have been going to Commerce Casino but would like some input on the others. I usually stay in the $1-$2 games but I do have the bankroll for $3-$6. Thanks in advance.
Collections in most LA clubs are about the same. I hate Commerce! Have seen floor rulings in favor of regulars that were clearly the opposite of the house rule. Hollywood park is OK.
Like best Hawaiin Gardens. They permit new player to come in anywhere and not post. Most new players start after the button and get a free round. Friendly club. Just made major changes in food and service. Lots of parking. They have a free NFL weekly card, can win $1,000 (no cost).
Sounds like commercial!
To be honest with you playing 1-2 limit is a waste of time... The collection is way too strong for that limit..Say you pay 5 dollars a round, all the money goes down the drop..You cant win a big enough pot to make up for it..
I was playing 2-5 hold em and it was a pretty good game. then this old, drunk cowboy came in, sat directly to my left and was betting very wildly. pretty much raising every hand he got. it wasn't so bad until about 4 or 5 other players started playing along with him, and the table became very loose. my question is, how do you play with people like that. do you tighten up and play only primo hands, loosen a little since they are playing slop, or get up and walk away? any advise would help. thanks james
I would play more drawing hands and only big pairs. If you don't have a good hand (4 card draw, set, 2 pair or top pair with good kicker) after the flop I would fold. You end up folding a lot more after the flop, but when you win you win BIG!
I play mostly 10-20 and we get this kind of play occasionaly. I believe you should play your best game and only come in with drawing hands in late position. The key is to play sainly after the flop. If you have the best of it, pound it all the way. If not, muck the junk and wait for the right flop to batter them senseless.
Respectfully, The Suburban Poker Man
In addition to what the other two posters have stated, I would add that you should change your seat and try to play right after this guy instead of right before him. That way, if he raises you can get out without a decent hand. The other advantage is that when he raises you can isolate him with a re-raise when you have a good hand thereby getting it heads-up with you having the better hand AND the better position.
In a game where everyone starts chasing the wild man they often will not fold when you re-raise. Therefore I ALWAYS put him on my immediate left. I want him raiseing and re-raiseing and sucking them in. I want their dead money when I limp he raises I re-raise he re-re-raises then MAYBE 1-2 will muck. I figure I will have the best starting hand on the table most of the time or I will better be able to gauge what others may have too. I will almost always limp. Here's a perfect example why.
I'm 2 off the big blind, wild man 2nd to my left.
I limp with pocket rockets. Wild man raises 6 players to me I re-raise he caps but none fold.
Flop:As Qs 7d
I call one bet as I know wild one will raise, he does, all call, I re-raise, he caps, all call.
Turn: Qd
SB bets, all call to me I call, wild one raises, SB reraises, all call, I call as I know wild man will cap it.
River: 10d
I feine disgust. SB bets, 1 caller, I call and sure enough wild man raises. SB calls, I'm sure she has a Q. 1 more caller, I re-raise, wild man caps, both players fold and we now have no cap. Wild man & I go 7 more bets before he's out of chips and I take a HUGE pot. They were all CHASING him, not paying any attn to me. I hope this helps you in your next wild one.
I think you are right in suggesting a seat to the left of the maniac, but I think your advice to attempt to isolate him with a reraise is pretty dangerous.
I have found that on a wild table, a reraise almost never isolates the maniac.
If the table has a relatively sane mentality and only one maniac, it is often quite easy to isolate him from 3 or 4 seats away.
The exact same thing happened to me last night in 3/6. A couple buddies sat down at a previously slow, tight table and started jamming pots. One guy would always reraise every preflop raise - ending up in a LOT of capped pots.
These games can be very profitable provided you are VERY disciplined. NO loose calls.
In this situation, I radically adjust my starting hand requirements. I wait for premium hands, then I jam the living bejeezus out of them until given a reason not to. I don't play many drawing hands in these games at all because it costs so much to see the flop. A lot of people advise playing the draws, and that advice is valid and profitable, but your swings will be incredible. I've decided to forgo the roller coaster after getting crushed by drawing to the nuts in wild games.
Unfortunately, I only got two premium hands in about 4 hours of play. One I got QhQd and rivered a second nut flush. No one was raising me when the flush draw hit, so I knew my Qd was good and took down a very nice pot. The other was AKs, capped preflop and I folded on the turn to a rotten board. Q9 offsuit for two pair won that one. Guy called 3 bets cold preflop on Q9 offsuit. (Love to see it, get this guy some more ammo!)
Otherwise, I got rags (not even any good draws) and folded preflop the rest of the time, cashing out a $50 win. I used the downtime to observe the players and have some dinner while I watched.
Every so often, the maniacs would take a break and you could enter the game for one bet preflop on a decent drawing hand. - You have to be careful to pick your battles in these games, though.
One maniac dumped $300+ into the game, the other about $250. The other people at the table who didn't change their starting hand requirements when the table got wild pushed huge pots back and forth, dwindling their stacks by playing too loose.
Another guy at the table caught a run of beautiful cards and cashed out over $600 ahead.
You just have to wait for the hands in situations like this. I used to loathe and fear these games, even dropped almost $500 in one playing good draws. That just doesn't happen anymore and I always post a win in them now.
the same thing happened again the next night, but not quite as bad. i was still waiting for the premium hands, but they were not comming. i think i got pocket pairs twice all night and very few decent suited cards. other than that is was like q3o or 92o and the like. the hands i could enter, i ended up having to dump on the flop or turn. that happened hour after hour and i ended up dumping all $200 that night. i feel i played a little to tight, and not agressively enough when i did get the cards. any responses are welcome. thanks James
I understand how you feel. The same thing happened to me yesterday. Nothing but rags all day and QQ and AK were no good.
However, what happened to me is that I got pissed off and started gambling with the other fish. Big Mistake. Every time I hit a flush on the river, the board paired and some yahoo filled up with Q3 offsuit.
I lost $170, but I would have lost a LOT less had I stuck to playing extremely tight instead of gambling.
I disagree on not playing drawing hands. With 4 or 5 players raising and reraising you will get the right pot odds to play drawing hands. I do NOT chase, if the flop doesn't fit my hand then I fold.
Barefoot,
I realize that I am giving up something by passing on drawing hands in these games.
It's just that when you miss on 4 or 5 draws in a row, or you hit them and someone else improves more, it can take a major chunk of change out of my pocket.
When I get a much bigger bankroll, I will play some more draws.
For now, I have decided to take the smaller wins and keep the swings manageable.
I would also advise beginners to not play too many draws until they have enough experience to correctly assess the situation when deciding whether to stay with a draw.
6-12 game and I am UTG and raise with 10-10. 3 players fold to good player who raises, next player is tight and calls, the button is a manic and caps. I think about it an fold and the other two call. I felt that the VG player had to have at least AA or KK and that the tight play had cards in the same area. I put the manic on any two high cards. Right thinking,right fold?
Flop K-8-6 Capped by manic Tight palyer dropped Turn 7 Just one raise
River 9 Just calling
VG AA Tight ? Manic KJ Me Straight but if I had called the pre flop cap I never would have made it to the turn.
When a very tight player, like an LOL, calls three bets cold it almost always means AA,KK, or QQ. However, I would still call and take a flop because you are already half-way having raised. Once you take a flop you can play very accurately from then on and get out if you don't flop a set or some kind of big draw.
I would not fold here as you are now getting 7:1 odds on your pre-flop call, plus you have great implied odds if you flop a set. given that there are three other players in the hand who will no doubt call the capped betting, you are getting more than enough implied odds to call with your pair just trying to flop a set. plus sometimes you will win other ways, such as if you had a flop of 8 9 J rainbow and make a straight on the turn or river. Folding pre-flop is a bad idea here. Add to this the fact that you will be able to fold with confidence most times that you get an unfavorable flop, and you have a clear call before the flop.
bottom line, don't fold in this situation.
dave in cali
Hello to everybody. A few months ago I started playing online low limit hold 'em on paradisepoker.com I 've read some books on hold 'em and one specifically for low limit hold 'em. In theory everything looks good and sounds reasonable but in practice unfortunatelly do NOT work. i 've been playing on a $5-$10 table with 9 other players and I've been losing constantly eventhough I 've been following guidelines from these books as closely as it gets. The other night I was taking notes from a 200-hands session and here are the results:
- playing time around 3 1/2 hours - 26 'playable' starting hands of which: 11 missed completely the flop
7 remained uncompleted draws
3 were beaten on the river by some 'wild' players
5 won the pot
Total winnings 243 dollars Total losses (including money for BB and SB) 485 dollars Overall -242 dollars!
The game was mostly loose-passive even though some times there were raises on pre-flop (I raised twice with AA and AKs). Problem is on online games people come and go thus making difficult for me to understand their stereotype as much as I wish. Any comments, help are VERY welcome! I 'm thinking about abandoning the whole idea of online poker eventhough I think it's really great specially for people who stay in places with no poker clubs nearby...
Thanks a lot in advance!!
A couple of hundred hours is probably not a big enough sample size for a $5-$10 game to draw any meaningful conclusions. You need about 1000 hours.
If you have a choice, I think playing live poker in a casino or public card room is preferable to playing on-line. It is important to see the other players and how they react to bets and raises.
I have had quite a bit of expereince playing online. I live 2 hours from the nearest casino and although I certainly prefer the "live" rather than the virtual expereince it has to suffice(and this kind of regular expereince playing 5 or 6 times a week I think is immensely valuable). I encountered this same problem when I began playing online. The huge pool of players makes profiling difficult and it seems you can consistantly beat one or two maniacs but to have 4 or five drawing out on your KK is virtually impossible. While no ONE of those loose passive players will beat you(or last very long without getting lucky) the group of 4 or 5 effectively will. What helped me and has been rather rewarding ($) is to aclimatize myself in a lower limit maybe 3/6 or 2/4 (or if you bankroll permits continue with 5-10) and tend to loosen up with hands which play well against many players (suited cards and suited connecters) while tightening considerably on high unsuited cards. I often toss hands such as KJ and AJ preflop when I find myself in a game where it is impossible to move a number of passive callers(another and equally effective strategy is to act very aggressively on early rounds and (if the game is passive enough) check down on the laters. If you are going to play those big unsuits you need to raise and reraise with more frequency(of course only as this effectively elimanates players preflop or early on)otherwise just forget about'em. What has worked best for me though is to play those pocket pairs, suited cards, and suited connectors esp.---fold easily when bet into (assuming that the game is passive) and WAIT for the real MONSTER!...then bet relentlessly as a hand rarely is not called all the way down-it is also essential to use the check raise liberally both to move players and to capitalize on those monsters. (i.e to move players--you hold JTh on button and and flop comes Jc xs 7h I would raise and reraise because for 1 and even 2 bets a good deal of these players will call with any overcard of WEirdo straight chances so with vulnerable hands you must play ultra aggro.)
anyway hope this isn't to obvious, PLease share whatever conclusions you come to as well,
O'Nolan
Thanks so far for your answers. Your help is invaluable. Couple of things I forgot to mention:
1. I live in Greece, where there are no poker rooms (it's prohibited, and casinos are too far away from me).
2. I have played many more than 200 hands in paradisepoker.com (I would say well over 1000). I just mentioned that 200-hands session as an example. What I noticed there, seems to apply for all the games I've played so far.
3. The cards I consider 'playable' for pre-flop are:
Early position: AA-TT, AKs-JTs, AQs-QTs,AJs-KTs,AK,KQ AQ
Middle position: all above and 99-88, AJ if there are few callers in front. AA-66,AKs-76s,AK-98,AQs-T8s,Axs if there are 4 or more calles in front. AA-TT,AKs-T9s,AQs,AQ,AJs if there is a raise and 5 or more in front
Late position: AA-99, AKs-76s, AQs-86s, AJs-96s,AK-98 AQ-J9 with 4 or less in front AA-22, KQs-54s,AQs-75s,AJs-85s,AK-76, AQ-T8,AXs-KXs with 5 or more in front AA-99, AKs-76s,AQs-J9s,AJs-Q9s,AK-JT,AQ-QT,AXs
Thanks again for your input.
Makis
I'm assuming you're playing out of "Winning Low Limit Holdem" by Lee Jones... If you follow this advice playing 2-4 or maybe 3-6 at Paradise, you should expect to come out a winner, the 5-10 games and most of the 3-6 games are much tougher than casino games that Jones is referring to.
You write below that you feel you are playing too tight, but I promise, you are not. In a PP 5-10 game, you'll save money by folding QTs KTs JTs & KQo in early position. I would draw the offsuit connector line around JTo, and even that only sometimes in late position. Playing AQ (or worse) against an early position raiser will just force you to make tough desicions later in the hand. Even in late position, T7s isn't going to hit the flop often enough to make you money. J8s is borderline. Routinely playing J9o and lower will cost you money. And Kxs is rarely worth it. Some of these hands are worth playing in certain situations, like if you are late position first in and think the blinds may fold for a raise, but they shouldn't usually be played. As a beginning player, you must realize that playing marginal hands will force you to make tough choices later in the hand, and often, you'll choose wrong.
If you play for another year, and continue playing these hands, you'll begin to see what I mean.
I have found that when playing online, the best strategy is to play in two games, but play extremely tight. It is still important to know your players, but since there are so many, it is hard to get to know anybody very well. Also, online players tend to play short sessions. If a guy's only going to sit at your table for an hour, its very rare that you'll get a good line on his play, and then get a chance to take advantage of it.
You can make money in these games, just by being a "seat plug". Play very tightly, and play two games so that you don't have to wait so long for a playable hand. When you do continue past the flop, you'll often have a good enough hand that you don't need to worry too much about an unfamiliar player. They'll still pay you off, because they're too busy web surfing or watching TV to know that you haven't played a hand in half an hour. And don't forget to steal the pot if you sense that your opponents are weak, especailly if you have outs should they decide to call.
Also, play at 2-4 for a while... Granted you'll be sucked out on more often, but that's where the good player's profits come from. Jones's advice will be enough to kill the 2-4 games, and then you can take your profits up to 3-6. If you run into trouble there, drop down again, make some money at 2-4, and take another shot. When you've taken some money out of the 3-6 games, then you take it to 5-10...
Many poker books suggest playing at the highest limit you can comfortably play, to minimize the effect of the rake. While the games at Paradise are still raked, it is significantly less than in a casino. At Paradise Poker, a good 2-4 player can actually make some money! Its half the rake, with no tips. So take your time. Don't think about whether or not Lee Jones's starting hands chart would let you play your hand. Think about what type of flop you want, and how likely it is. If you had this hand in this situation over and over forever, would you make money or lose money?
B$
B$
I really apreciated your answer. Forums like this one show how useful internet is. Anyway.
I'm sorry I did not make it clear enough but my problem is not winning the hands I play. My question is how can I protect myself from the rake (BB&SB). If you read my original post, I mention that out of 485 dollars that I lost, 300 dollars were paid for BB & SB. In order to increase my winnings just to cover the rake, I have to play more hands, don't I? If I play even tighter as you suggest I would have less chances to make up for the rake (even if my cards will have a higher percentage of winning). Thanks again for all your effort.
Makis - the rake is the money that the operators take out of each pot.
The blinds are there because otherwise there would be no game - everybody would wait for AA and there would only be one hand a year when one AA took on the other AA.
In a very tight game you have to defend your blinds at the right times and steal the blinds at the right time. To do this correctly requires good play. In a looser or more passive game, defending becomes much easier and the mistakes less costly. Look for the loose or passive games and if the game you are in becomes to tight you should leave.
Makis,
Dave is right. Playing more hands will not help you beat the "rake" because the rake is the money that PP takes out of each pot. So really, its the loose players who are paying more rake, since they are contesting more pots. If you folded every hand preflop, you would never pay a dollar in rake.
Your blinds are another story. Over the course of your lifetime, you will lose money when in the blind. You have a forced bet, and you're out of position. The good news is that you only have to pay it 20% of the time.
In a 5-10 game, you're paying $7 per round. So to be a winner, you need to make over $7 per round. Playing extra hands is not the way to do it. The whole idea behind winning at poker is to only play cards that will make money, and play them in the way that will make the most money. All playing extra hands is going to do is drain your chips, especailly if you're not playing extremely good poker once the flop comes.
Just keep studying the game and keep playing. And play in the lowest limit games until you are beating them consistantly, then move up. If you're not a winner at 2-4, you're not going to be a winner at 5-10. Just get this idea about playing more hands out of your head, because if your whole poker education is built on such a weak foundation, you really don't stand a chance.
B$
I definitely have to agree with jim as far as playing online vs. actual cardroom poker, I find it much easier to win playing in a cardroom than online, as I can read people and get a better feel for their play and the overall game texture. In an online casino situation you have to rely soley on betting patterns and your cards, taking out much of the element of "playing the man", I am a confident winner (so far) in cardroom poker, in online poker w/ the exception of tourneys, I have found myself to be losing, now I haven't completed more than 1000 hours and I've had good sessions and bad ones, same as anyone, but especially if your new I would recommend playing in a cardroom.
Makis,
5-10 online is not at all 5-10 at a Casino. Due to the speed of the game, the quality of the players (losers cannot fund themselves forever on Paradise) and the pool of tough players who can get online any time they'd like, 5-10 plays more like a tough 10-20 in most cases than 5-10 -- or even 15-30 (look at the pre-flop percents, these are usually much lower than a lot of Casinos). People play better and tighter online at every level.
Good luck winning at 5-10: With little or no experience, you have no chance. This is not meant as an insult, since I do not know you, rather, it is simply a fact. Try the 2-4 game, there are always a few very good players there, but also some real fish, thank goodness. If you can beat that game, try the 3-6.
Mark
Mark thanks for your response. Problem is same thing happens on 2-4 and 3-6. Even worse cause there you meet even wilder players that might stay in until the river with any two cards. My point is that I think when I follow guidelines from these books I play too tight; and eventhough I show profit from the hands I play, I end up overall loser because I pay too many BB & SB. In my example 300 out of the 485 dollars were lost due to BB&SB. If it wasn't for that (ie if I didn't pay any money for BB&SB), I would be a winner, showing a profit of 60 dollars. How about that?
Again, thanks for your comments.
5-10 at Paradise is a tough game to beat. Last week I had a couple of long sessions on it and I got the impression that everyone was losing due to the rake. ( A few players may have dipped in and out taking a small profit) There were almost no big pots - a pre-flop raise got the BB and perhaps one other with very few postflop mistakes.
3-6 is generally much easier - for one thing the SB is only $1 - this is more suited to a tight playing style. What I like to see in a game is an early position raise being called by 4 or 5. In these games you will pick up the monster hands and monster pots you need to survive online.
Try 2-4. Play by the book, but raise more. You will lose less, but you will lose, I am sorry to say. 98% of beginners play too passively and get blinded to death or run over. You have described that well in your posts.
Here is how to save a ton of money:
Download irc poker (search for Greg's IRC Poker client on the web), it is online poker playing against real people for fun. Play for 1000 hours or so, and develop a strategy. When you are winning at the 50-100 level there (this is for fun, but you 'move up' as your chips grow), then play 2-4 online. You might win money then.
You have been open and honest about your losses, I want to save your bankroll,
Mark
Makis,
Your losses out of the blinds seem to suggest that you are calling with the hands you play from the blinds too often and staying with them too long.
Those $5 calls add up quickly, especially when you apply the 'loose-passive' guidelines to a game that is more aggressive than you think it is.
You are definitely NOT playing too tight.
I felt the same way you do when I started playing poker, I thought the book's advice was too tight. I thought "Maybe I should just throw a call out there and outplay these guys who are obviously far less educated and aware than I am."
Wrong!!
In many cases in loose aggressive games in low limits and online, the advice straight from the book is far, far too loose. The books all point this out and try to warn about it, but many new players don't adjust to the game we are in like we should.
The most valued lesson I have learned in mylimited poker experience (about 500 hours) is that you will not become a better poker player solely by reading books or participating in online forums. The ONLY way to improve is through experience, and the experience many times does not come cheap.
You original thread says it all: "Conventional Theory Not Working." Of course it doesn't. There is no theory or advice that you can arbitrarily apply to any poker game.
It is only through playing thousands and thousands of hands that you become more adept at applying the valuable knowledge from the books and the forums in actual games.
My point is: Be careful about applying advice "right from the book", and make sure you ask yourself if the advice you are using applies to the individual situation you are using it in.
1) throw away that lee jones book.
2) 3.5 hours is not enough to judge your results. not by several orders of magnitude.
3) if you're "playing by the book," chances are someone else at the table can figure out exactly which book.
4) online poker is fundamentally different from live poker in that it is more aggressive. this should come as no surprise - people tend to be more aggressive in general when they're not face-to-face [think rude email]. you must adjust to this fact, and be prepared to accept the resulting high variance.
5) consider playing 3-6 for a while.
-
4-8 HE. Played about 6 hours, ranging from up 60 to down 150. Had to leave and was about 40 down. Played one last round. Nothing in all deals. Player to right is taking blind, last hand for me.
Game was very friendly, lots of humor and kidding.
I look at 34s. What the X!. I raise. Several callers. One off button 3 bets. Blind calls. I cap. Called around. Six players. Nice pots.
Requires miracle draw for me. As dealer is clearing chips ready to deal the flop, blind says to no one in particular, "we're in trouble, he hasn't raised in over an hour" In my mind, this is a good remark for me. Blind and I have been kidding each other.
Flop is 5K3 offsuit. So I have 3's. I hope no one has a K (not much chance). I casually say. "Looks good to me"
Blind checks. I bet. Several callers, one off button raises, blind calls, I reraise. Called around. No one out.
Turn is A (no flush possible.) (A5K3)
I remark, "Well its getting better!"
So, i need a perfect 2, maybe a 3 for trips, and maybe a four for two pair. Not good. Blind checks.
Fold, fold, fold, one player debates for awhile, then folds! (wow!) Blind calls. Heads up.
River is 2. Perfect!
Blind checks. I bet. Blind calls. (Rembember we were doing a lot of kidding) So I said to him, you can't have a 4. He smiles. Says "Could be!" He turns up 24. I say: "you called all that raising with that rag, do you want to chop?" He says, "what, you have 64!" I slowly show my 34.
Everyone howls. Some says, you know this is not 20-40.
I said to blind, "you had it on the turn, why did you just call? He says, I thought you had trips, and was worried about the last card.
We split and then I split. Nice ending!
6-12 8 players, pretty tight game.
Preflop:
Fish limps in early position. I raise with 88 in mid position trying to isolate fish. Button, who is a solid player, calls. Everyone else folds.
Flop: JJ3r
Fish checks. I bet. Both call.
Turn: T (still rainbow)
Fish checks. I bet. Button calls. Fish calls all-in.
River: 8
I bet. Button raises.
Do you raise or call here? Why?
Results later..
At this point with 126 $ in the pot, I would re raise, most likely scenario being that the button caught a straight, and is making what he most likely percieves to be your 3 j's pay, a slowplayed trips is also a likely scenario in this case b/c of the fact that you said the button is a solid player. However, solid...what is the liklihood that he has AJ or KJ as opposed to JT or J8, or even J3, last I checked with the exception of JT solid players don't play that J3 in this spot would be a joke and J8 is a marginal call of a raise even on the button. Situation like this it all comes down to what is in your gut, how you read the player and what you think he has. and from the way I read the hand, he's either got AJ KJ or hit a straight, all 3 of which you can beat, so in my opinion you raise. Comments on my thought process also appreciated here.
The button does not have a straight. He'd have to have Q9 or 97. I don't know of any rock that would call a raise with this kind of crap.
J8 is not a marginal call for a raise on the button. It is a clear fold, no question about it.
Button may have JJ or TT or AJ, KJ, or QJ. JT? Maybe but most rocks won't call with this hand with only 2 others in in a raised pot. Those are the only things I think he can have. You beat everything but JJ and TT and JT. JJ is very unlikely, TT is somewhat more likely. I think JT is quite unlikely, but it depends on that player. It depends on the rocks perception of you - would he call your preflop raise with AJ, KJ, or QJ?
I'd say the chances are pretty good that you have the winner. If the fish still had chips and he were calling, I would definitely raise because he gives you good enough odds to raise.
Without his chips, I'd say the raise is still worth it. But I don't think it's a no brainer. Remember that the button has to fear that you might have raised with JT suited, if you typically make those kinds of plays.
If you reraise and get reraised again you know you can't win.
-SmoothB-
SmoothB,
Why do you keep assuming the button is a rock??? I see the original post saying he is a solid player but not all solid players are rocks...
These terms are far from interchangable(sp).
Sean
Ok I will amend my statement by saying I don't know of any SOLID PLAYERS who will call a raise with J8. In my book, anyone that calls 2 bets cold with J8 suited or unsuited and only 2 people in the pot is not a solid player, end of story.
-SmoothB-
Well, he's not so solid if he called the raise with 33, JT, J8; and should probably have 3-bet with JJ or TT. This leaves AJ.
Raise.
That T was about as bad a card as you could have gotton; solid player either has you beat or has a 2-overcard straight or gut shot and in any case isn't going to fold the turn. Check and fold the turn. Now if the turn was an Ace you can bet and hope he gives up KQ or whatever. This paragraph doesn't apply if he isn't so solid.
- Louie
The only hand a solid player on the button could have to call your raise and not 3 bet would be TT. If this indeed is his holding wouldn't he raise the turn? Maybe he didn's see fish about to go all in and tried to keep him in the pot. I would definately re raise. The button may have Q9s. If he re raise your re raise just call.
Solid Player would call and might not raise with JJ or 10 10, I don't see him calling with AJ never KJ and surly not J 10s all are troubled hands, especially after your raise Pre-Flop. Your beat and should not re-raise.
SPM
I am not sure I would have bet the turn here with now two over cards to my pocket pair on the table plus an open pair. A solid player could easily have you beat this point.
On the river, I would just call because the only sensible hand he could have that you can beat is maybe Queen-Nine suited for a straight. With AJ, KJ, or QJ he would have raised you on the turn. But with JT or TT he might well wait until the river to pull the trigger.
No debate -- reraise every time. With any jack and the fish calling all the way and you possibly bluffing, the button should be reluctant to risk shutting down the action earlier. The 8 could also give him a straight. I can't conceive of just calling for fear he caught a higher full.
This hand is a good example of how a hand should not have been played. Holdem experts Louie and Jim are right on the money regarding the turn play as it should be a clear check-fold situation. So here's the result:
River: 8
I bet my fullhouse. Button raises. I put him on AJs or KJs, and I reraise. Button reraises again! I made a crying call. Button turns over JJ for quad.
Moral of the story here, do not chase with 2 outers. Even if you get there, you may be drawing dead.
If he is solid, he can't have a straight as he wouldn't have called preflop and definitely not the flop.
River raises almost always scream "monster" or whisper "bluff".
I am guessing he had pocket 10's but I will admit that in actual play, I would feel awful sheepish just calling his raise on the river. I would probably reraise and kick myself for it later on.
If the button is a solid player, I definitely re-raise. He could only have 3 hands that have you beat. JJ (highly unlikely), J-10s ( not a good call pre-flop for a solid player), or 10-10 (with which I would expect him to raise on the flop).
This hand came up last night in a 6-12 game at my local card club. The game was mostly loose and passive.
I was in middle position, four off the blinds. Two players to my right limp, I limp with JsTs, two players in late position call and small blind folds.
The flop comes As7s4s. BB checks, UTG checks, player to my right bets, I raise, a late position player calls both bets cold. Everyone else folds except for the player to my right, who reraises, I cap it and the late position player again calls two bets cold.
The player to my right is difficult to put on a hand. He frequently overvalues his hands and will call and raise with a single high suited card. I am worried about the late position player, as he has called both raises cold, but before the turn he starts chanting for the board to pair so I figure him for trips.
Turn is an offsuit rag. Player to my right checks, I bet, late position player calls, and then a raise from my right. I call and the late calls too.
River is a rag. Right bets, I call, late folds. I have the third nut. Kxs and Qxs both beat me. Right of me turns over Ks5s. Pot was about 17 BB.
Comments on my play please.
Greg
After the way the flop was bet, I would have put at least one of the others on a flush. With only the jack I would have check called the turn and called on the river. If you win the pot it will a little smaller, but if you lose you save 3-4 bets.
I think you played it fine. You had to pound the pot on the flop so that anyone with a singleton King of Spades or singleton Queen of Spades is paying through the nose to chase you. When the player to your right check-raises you on the turn, you know you are up against another flush and are probably beat but the pot is too big at that point. All you can do is payoff.
You can play ten more years and this will never happen.
Bruce
Why do say that? I've seen a few posts about how any flush is the nuts. Tonight I saw 3 players hit their flush on the river, and virtually every night I see flush over flush.
I was specifically referring to the top three flushes being out there, not just flush over flush. Even three flushes is relatively rare in one hand.
Bruce
I once saw 5 made flushes in a passive game at the Luxar, in 9 years of play I seen more royals.
Did you say that Qxs folded on the river?
I find that hard to understand...why would he call all raises on the flop and turn and then fold the river for one more bet?
Your play was fine although I would often just call the reraise on the flop (given that it came from your immediate right) and plan to raise the turn when he bets again (or perhpas fold if another spade comes off). This is a "slowplay" that in fact has the pot being 3 bet on the flop and raised on the turn. In other words, you get all the advantages of a slowplay without losing the benfits of playing it fast.
I think that you have understimate the man at your right , to check-raise on the turn was very bright , he had 3 more big Bet in the pot when he has the nut . He wants you to think that he has KsXx off . There was 4 things possible for the late position : #1 ...he has a set #2 ...he has 2 pairs #3 ...he has a very small flush and he's on a draw for an inside straight flush #4 ...he's a bad player
Greg, when you play a JTs you are hoping for a straight using both cards or a flush with at least two over on board, giving you second nut. Flop it and you should play it fast but if you get resistance or check raised you are usually f--ked already. The smaller your flush the bigger the cards you want to see on the board of that suit. Start thinking in turns of what you really want to see on the flop and evaluate relative to that. Don't draw to anything lower than second nut flush and you'll stay out of trouble. Think how you would have had to play if the flop were 258 all spades, you were pretty much in the same shape. IMHO.
I played the 2-4 at Foxwoods this past weekend, and I encountered a hand where I really had little clue as to where I stood. I'm a beginner to poker, so keep that in mind.
I have 26o in the BB. 6 people or so call and I get to see the flop. The flop comes Q,Q,2 rainbow.
Everyone checks to 2nd from last position, who bets.
Given the looseness of this table, I don't expect that there is an Early queen looking to checkraise or slowplay. But still, there are a lot of cards that I'm not at all happy to see in future rounds. With so many people still in the pot, I can't be favored to come up with the best hand. I thought about raising to reduce the number of players and possibly steal the pot, but I ended up folding.
The eventual outcome was that another 2 fell on the river. By then, most the other players had folded. The post-flop bettor took the pot with twos full, so of course I'm wondering if I made a bonehead play by folding what turned out to be a winning hand.
Secondly, I'm suspecting that if I were a better player with more confidence, raising might have been a good play here. Is that the case?
Thanks!
You played the hand fine. While you did flop two pair you have no kicker with your pair and anyone who has a pocket pair has you beat and drawing very thin. Also if someone does have a Queen you're drawing almost dead. You'll lose a lot more money playing this hand than you'll ever win with it.
(n/t)
You did not make a bad play by folding here. you were out of position with no kicker. you probably had at most three outs, one two and two queens, and for a split at that. perhaps check-raising would work in some situations like this, but not with 62o out of position. you played fine. The result is irrelevant so don't worry about it. once you fold, get on with the next hand no matter what miracles might happen.
dave in cali
In a 15 hour session 3-6 loose maniac game [2 maniacs] others passive, 1 other solid player, i cash out up 700 bucks...[my biggest win ever] because I folded king-ten off [even suited in early/mid pos] and other hands of that sort such as ace-queen off [and other ace-little off] cards in any position.
was this a fluke that i won so much? or is this the way to play...it was HARD folding these hands because the other monkies were playing hands crappier than these and they were catching their hands on the river...but my little note on my lap that said 'play smart, don't play stupid.' 'fold marginal hands' helped me.
my question is did i lose anything not playing these hands? [note, it seemed like all the 'good' hands that i threw away never hit anything, maybe twice they won, but the pots were very small]
i'm just 18 and have been playing since may and the books and twoplustwo have helped because even the dealers are starting to see that i'm cashing out a winner more often now...
i've started to notice that those turkies who play jack-ten off and win a huge pot eventually lose their money back because they're playing way too many hands, and are playing ace-little off and raise with them.
i used to think that if i raise with king-queen off or king jack suited in any position, that it'd be good because i'd be mixing up my play...however, in low limit, i've noticed that these monkies don't notice a stinkin' thing except for the one or two other solids. and those solids just notice a young kid raising w/ marginal junk.
it seemed like everything went perfectly, raise w/ group one hands and they win...
sure once in a while a turkey hit his gutshot on the river and cracked my high pocket pair, but what can i do but get up, go to the restroom, get a drink of water, and wait again for another group 1 hand.
the lowest hand i ever raised with was ace king off. [is there anything wrong w/ that thinking?]
i even folded jack-queen suited in mid position after the lone solid player raised utg and as i threw the cards, it hit the dealer's hand and was exposed and i got a yelling by the monkies who 'play for the jackpot' [i play at an indian casino, san manuel] and lectured me about, that can be a jackpot hand!!! [question, would most fold this hand after a solid player raises in a loose, maniacal game?] [btw, the flop came king high and the pre flop raiser won w/ his aces] the hecklers finally stopped lecturing me after i built a nice picture of a turkey with my chips.
all in all, the point of this post is to get feedback on my play and those couple questions i had...obviously, on LL, one has to show down the best hand, bluffing is not an option as i tried once early in the game before i had a feel for it and a fishy called me down with a pair of twos that he caught on the turn and my ace-king high didn't hit.
also, i'd like to say thank you to the other posters that have helped me and responded to a few of my posts. i guess this is why you guys keep posting and helping out others, because u guys probably get satisfaction in seeing kiddies who are looking to improve their game...
when i turn 21, you'll be sure to finaly see this kiddie up there in vegas to hopefully just break even with u sharkies... =)
OK, some thoughts on your post....
First off, I like your idea of a note to yourself saying play smart! I sometimes make notes for myself when I am trying to work on a particular strategic concept. Just don't let the other players see you making notes, they may catch on that you are playing serious poker and start asking too many questions or not giving you action.
As for your play, folding marginal hands is a great place to start plugging leaks in your game. However, don't just wait for group 1 hands! I don't know the circumstances of your folding AQo, but unless someone else raised, this hand should usually be played, and then it should usually be raised with. Don't take the concept of playing only top level hands too far.
As for your folding QJs, for a raise against a lone player you should usually fold it. It does have jackpot potential, but this is not enough to call with speculative drawing hands BTF in raised pots! QJs wants to get in cheap in a multi-way pot.
You handled your hecklers well, good move making the turkey. Doing stuff like this makes others think you are not really as serious as you are, which is a good thing. Too bad your QJs got flipped over, you don't want people to know you are playing that tight.
You also have a good handle on bluffing: for the most part, don't do it. When you do, it should be heads up against a tight player, not a calling station or fish.
dave in cali
Yes it was unusual to win so much. It is possible but it is also possible to LOSE a ton in games like that. I have been in wild games and only played group 1 hands. I even folded AQ suited in the SB when it was capped before it got to me.
If you get AA 6 times and get it cracked every time, which CAN happen, you will lose a TON of money.
2 BB to see the flop. And since everyone is on tilt and things like pairs of sevens and king high are winning pots, you will probably get stubborn and not fold. So expect to put at least 6 or more BB in the pot each time you get those aces. That's 36BB gone right there.
Now pay your blinds. Thats somewhere around 2 1/2 BB per hour. 15 hours = 37 1/2 BB.
Once in a while you'll get a hand like QQ or AK and you'll want to play those too.
You can see that one session in a game like that can be VERY VERY costly.
Now, you can also have days where you play in a game like that and have all of your big hands hold up. That's rougly what happened to you. That won't happen every time.
Folding AQ offsuit in a maniacal game with lots of raises preflop and lots of people seeing the flop is a GOOD IDEA!!!
There are some people that say that if you are in a really loose game, you will make money by playing just a little looser than they do. I heartily disagree.
Let's say that the average person plays 60% of their hands. Let's say that there are 2 rocks playing 10%, 6 others playing 70%. You decide to play 30%.
You make some money from the looser players but you give it right back to the rocks. Remember that those loose players will get good hands sometimes too.
Of course, if you could get into an infinitely loose and infinitely passive game, you could make a lot of money even if you played 30% of your hands. IE, no one ever bets or raises but they call all bets you make and never fold. As far as I know there are no such games - if there are I wish I knew where!
-SmoothB-
Yes, in a game with two maniacs, you should be playing very tight. Every hand you play will have lowered implied odds. Very few hands can absorb that kind of loss of odds.
In a game with two maniacs, I wouldn't put in a preflop raise unless everyone else was playing in spite of the maniacs' raises. In that case, your raises may have enough respect to drop a few people.
One of the other responders brought up the topic of loosening/tightening your play according to table conditions. Let me express my theory.
As the game gets more passive, you can/should loosen up. That is, be a bit tighter than everyone else at the table, but you can play all the hands with small EV's. As the game gets more aggressive, then you tighten up considerably. If the game is tight aggressive, find another game.
Eric
Just joined a session (so I had to post a bet) and I 'm sitting on the right of the button. The table is $0.50/$1 My starting hand: 9c 10h My guy to the right calls, I check, SB checks, BB raises, two guys call, I call, SB raises, BB caps the pot, two guys call, I call, SB calls. Flop is 6h 7c 6c SB bets, BB folds, guy #1 calls, guy #2 raises, I call, SB calls, guy #1 folds. Turn comes 8d SB checks, guy to my right bets, I call, SB calls. River comes 7d SB checks, guy to my right bets, I call, SB folds.
I show a 6 to 10 straight and the guy to my right shows full of sixes with sevens and wins the pot.
What were the mistakes I made during that game?
thanks in advance
you didn't raise with the top straight on the turn. The other player had trips and was coming anyway, but has only 4 outs and you should make him pay to draw.
Now I'm a newbie, but when a pot gets capped pre-flop and I have T9o, I fold. When I see that the BB capped and then folded after that flop, then I count my lucky stars to be in a game with him!
If I'm the BB and 3 bets come to me, then I better have a GOOD hand or I'm folding. If I do have a GOOD hand then I'm not going to fold after that flop.
So this guy is capping pots in the BB with squat. I'll be following this guy around ;)
Calling the raise was probably a mistake. I do not like to chase for a straight or a flush when there is a pair on the flop especially a gut shot straight. I just get into trouble like you did.
1) Getting involved in a capped pot with T9 offsuit is a mistake.
2) Calling 2 bets cold with a gutshot straight draw when there is a pair AND a 2 flush on board is a BIG mistake. Especially when the pair is touching the singleton card. IE 766. Same thing with QJJ, T99, etc. People are more likely to hold on to connecting cards.
Also, the 2-flush on board indicated trouble. If you make your straight but one of that suit is there you are probably against a flush. So, you have a three outter - and the pair on board means you may be drawing dead. AND, the flush card may come on the river and kill you. I don't like your odds.
-SmoothB-
I think your preflop call of two raises with 9T offsuit was wrong.
Your call of two bets on the flop with nothing but a runner-runner gutshot was wrong (someone obviously had a 6)
Your call on the turn was wrong
The river play was irrelavent - you should not have been there in the first place.
Ooops,
I didn't see that you hit the straight on the turn.
I still would not have called 2 preflop with 9T offsuit or called the flop with a gutshot.
Makis,
T9o is marginal to call here. In a passive game (this sounds like it wasn't) you would want to raise in the cutoff seat instead of calling to try to steal; or fold. In an aggressive game like this sounds, I would have folded it.
Once it is raised once, you must give it up; partly because you know then that you are dominated. Partly because you might find it capped. Would you have played this in the first place for 4 bets? I dooonnnn't think so.
Then when this flop comes and there is more raising, you need to give it up.
Then when you get 'lucky' and hit the gutshot, and don't raise, you are letting the set of 6 get in cheap. Then when the 7 hits on the river, you are screwed, and you better know it.
This is why I told you to save your money and play on IRC Poker for free: I have played many years, would not have made any of the mistakes you made on each card, and while I can beat 2-4 and 3-6 online (especially when there are some fishies), 5-10 is full of guys like me looking for newbies who will get sucked into a losing pot like this.
Still trying to save you $$,
Mark
Mark (and all the other guys who took the time to answer my question) thanks a lot. Problem is when I play for free I tend to play too careless and lose concentration. So I guess I have to pay to learn! Same as stock market. Most experts advise to paper trade before going for real battle but it's completely different the former from the latter. Anyway, I'll keep reading your posts and RGP, and I hope the lesson won't be ultra expensive... ;-)
playing 6-12 over the week-end. I am on the button with JJ. one player limps, next guy raises, all fold to me and I re-raise. both players call. flop comes Axx. Both check to me so I bet, both call. turn and river are also rags and both the players follow their check and call strategy. At the end the pre-flop raiser turns over KK to take down the pot. I was somewhat shocked and couldn't help but ask why KK didn't raise me at any point during the hand. He just said something about his bad luck etc...
Is there any way to deal with these - IMHO - weak passive players? Should I just be glad to be sitting in the same game with them and continue with my basic style of play? All comments appreciated.
Yes, these players are easy to beat in the long run but it can be frustrating at times when they don't bet their hand. On the specific hand in question, when you get called in two spots with a flop of Ace-high usually one of your two opponents will have an Ace so your are playing two outs. I think betting the turn was questionable and betting the river was very bad here especially against two calling stations. Given the flop,the rest of the board, and the betting action what could they have that won't beat a pair of Jacks?
Hi Jim,
I was in the same type of game last week, I had AJs, I raised, got two callers; the flop came AQx, I bet got one caller, he called me down to the river, which was another J. He called again. (Ok so maybe I lose to Kx, but he never raised at the end, and he was so weak I had to bet it, I assumed Qj or QT) To my astonishment, he showed me QQ for a set. He didn't raise for fear of AA, then for fear of me having AK or KK on the river (for the str8). I was in shock for about 10 minutes.
I am watching too much 20-40 online, hehe.
Mark
I guess I wasn't really afraid of the ace because everyone checked to me. I wasn't really concerned about another high pair because up to that point in the game the preflop betting was such that it was fairly obvious if there was a high pair out there. with only 3 players, if I had pocket Kings, I would have made it 4 bets. Granted, the bet on the river was probably not such a good idea but I'm still learning and I've also felt that I have been missing too many bets because I havn't been betting the river enough.
You can be sure that if I had KK in that hand I would bet into that flop. If you raised me with JJ, and with another caller in the hand, I might well take a check and call approach for the rest of the hand. I have to consider that your reraise may have been with AA or AK.
Can you really expect him to raise with it after the flop? He has to consider that either you have an A or the other guy does and is afraid of his kicker.
If I were in your shoes I would definitely have bet the flop and turn but no way would I bet the river. No one will fold a hand that is better than the one you have, and they probably won't call with a hand that's worse.
-SmoothB-
basically, if KK had made it four bets I would have slowed way, way down. As the hand was played, I was not getting any info from the other players as to what they had. for all I knew, KK could easily be TT. If he was raising pre-flop with A-high card, well then he would have definitely bet the flop. If he puts me on an Ace then isn't it better for him to bet in to me and if I raise then fold? Why would you just check and call the whole way thinking I had an ace but hoping that I didn't? I know that in a higher level game there are all sorts of mind games you can play, but this is 6-12 after all.
I should have been clearer in my original post. I was surprised that he didn't re-raise me pre-flop and that he didn't bet into me on the flop to find out where he stood.
If he bet, what would you have done?
Many players would raise with JJ and KK might fold.
Sometimes, betting for information can be hazardous because there's no obligation on the part of the informer to tell the truth.
A better bet to see where he stood might be on the turn. There, informers are less apt to see their own noses grow.
with 3 players seeing the flop, one player in early position called three bets, the other player behind who three bets preflop and an Ace card on board, and the game is 6-12, that means someone who call a check raise or raise in this situation does not automatically mean that they have strong hand, i have seen people in similar situation who raise the flop with KT, hence for the KK player to be sure someone has an Ace, he must somehow three bet the flop and bet the turn, that is as much as calling all the way down. Since he has KK, he's not running much risk of giving a free card if he already has the best hand. So assuming the early position limper is a weak player, I think check calling is not all that bad for the KK player(of course it will be different and probably harder to play if he has QQ). If I am playing in this case, I will bet the turn, but not the river.
"I was somewhat shocked and couldn't help but ask why KK didn't raise me at any point during the hand."
Well, there's an Ace on the board so I don't quite understand why you think that the guy with KK should have played more aggresively (save for maybe the preflop cap). I am not saying that he played it perfectly but he certainly played it in a reasonable manner.
In fact, if he has decided not to fold this hand at any point (and I wont comment on whether that is a wise thing to do), he probably did play it perfectly. If he is behind, he is playing a 2 outer and if he is ahead, you are playing a 2 outer (although he has the third fella's outs to worry about as well).
Notice that by calling with the KK he has trapped you assuming that he has the best hand. I frequently make this exact same play.
well thanks for the comments. I guess in retrospect I should've given up on the turn since it didn't look like anyone was going to fold.
I know you have gotten what you want here, but you have to make a mental note of the players that will shrink to a 3 bet, but also who can't divorse a big pair or top pair good kicker...I think the flop bet is a must, but then you are looking for free cards to make your set and have to fold to a river bet from them. Just be thankful you didn't loose more to a check raise from a more aggressive type. Also consider not raising your JJ until you get a flop you like, it's not really that great of a hand if the flop doesn't help or leave you with an overpair. S&M group 1 hand yes, powerhouse no. With JJ you are playing the players and the flop. My opinion is you got played by players who knew you would play all big pairs this way and took the safe way home. Better luck.
I'm missing something here. When did you expect him to raise you? The board contains an Ace, you 3-bet him pre-flop, and another player stuck around. There's a very good chance his hand is no good.
Well who calls all the way to the river if they don't think their hand is any good?
I agree with you there, but in LL you'll find lots of players who refuse to lay down big pairs.
Ironically, iread your post yesterday before going in to play. My second hand I get J-J and raise. BB re-raises and I hit it again. Just me, SB and BB in. Flop comes A-x-x. Checked to me and I bet. Both call. I know I'm beat and I know neither one will lay it down. I check it down (thinking of your post, and knowing I'm going to see K-K) and sure enough the BB turned over Kings. However SB had A-4 and took it down.
I'm glad you saved some chips. SB Calls 4 bets with A-4?
Boris,
Sometimes players are better than you think. You seem to be suprised when someone doesn't play each hand as you would. The object of this game is to win the most money. This man made the most he could (should) have by playing it in this way. He doesn't have to be super macho man to be the best player. This guy may have been watching your style the whole round. Were you watching his. Will you in the future?
You make a good point. I've also been trying to control my pent up aggression by mixing up my play lately. hopefully to make it tougher to read me.
4-8 Hold’em First let me start off by saying that I’m aware that I should not have played my hand to begin with, but please comment on my play following the flop. The game is loose passive with two strong players (SP) waiting to go to the 9-18 or 20-40 game.
PTR is UTG and makes it live 8. My hole cards are 2c2s and I decide to see the flop for 2 bets thinking that it would not be raised due to the normal flow of the game. Big surprise, by the time it gets back to me the betting is capped at $20. I grumble and put in the additional $12 (I’m thinking to myself “you dummy”). 6 players see the flop.
The flop comes2h5cQh. PLR bets out and I just call. (should I raise here with my set?) It gets raised I just call again (do I re-raise here?) and 5 players see the turn.
Turn is 5d.
PLR bets. My dilemma here was; do I raise or just call in an attempt to keep the players on a flush draw in the game. I bet realizing that any pair would beat my full house if they catch. The button (SP) says *@#Z!! I trapped myself and calls. (what does he mean by that remark) PTR calls. The 3 of us see the river.
River brings a Jh.
PTR bets I raise and the button folds. PTR calls. I show my pocket 2’s and he says I missed then mucks his hand. I assume he meant he missed a hull house.
All comments appreaciated.
The flop gave you a set, but the two flush means you have to play it as fast as you can. Being cute with a small set just invites your 2's to get cracked. Even so, with so much money in the pot, they probably won't fold, but you might as well jam it as long as you think you have the best hand.
The turn is a somewhat different story. You have a full house, but all the action indicates that there are definitely some 2-pair hands out there. Any one of them catches and your full house is dead. I would jam the turn also.
I think you waited far too long to start raising.
I know I probably sound like a guy who used to get a lot of small sets cracked by slowplaying them in low limit hold em.
Rich
First off, your play of taking a flop with 6 players with pocket 22 would not be as bad as you seemed to think if this is really a loose passive game. I will typically play any pocket pair in any position if it is TRULY a loose passive game. However, given that it is capped, ??????
On the flop you have bottom set with a two flush on the board. This is not the time to be slowplaying and just calling. you had two opportunities to raise the pot on the flop. you should have seen to it that the pot got capped on the flop while you had the chance. you will tend to make more $$ by raising and reraising the flop in this situation than by waiting for the turn to raise. Cap it on the flop!!!!!
On the turn, you could consider raising here rather than the river, as most of the time flush draws will call anyway but will fold the river if they miss. You are still vulnerable to quite a few cards in the deck, as your full house could be counterfeited by someone with a five hitting their kicker, someone with a pocket pair hitting their two outer, or someone with a queen or five hitting for a better full or quads. Given this, I don't think it hurts to raise the turn and charge them the max to try and get there.
by raising the river, I think you probably made the same amount as if you had gone for the overcall, so no problem there.
overall, you have to pump those small sets sooner and stop letting those flush draws see extra cards for cheap. If you just always raise the flop when you flop a set you will be doing pretty good. Don't fool around, you will usually win a bigger pot anyway by just pumping sets on the flop than if you try and get fancy and wait till the turn or river to raise.
dave in cali
Dave,
The game had been very loose and passive and is why I was in shock when it came back capped. The sudden change in regards to the raise and re-raise somehow played on my mind and gave me the feeling that my set of 2’s were to wimpy to raise with. I guess a set is a set.
I did raise after the turn when my thought process got back on track. But all of the respondents are correct in that I should have raised or capped after the flop. That fact that most players on a flush draw will call to the river is something I will have to remember.
The concept of playing any pair in a very loose game is interesting. Do you find this profitable most of the time?
Thanks, Rich
I don't find that calling 3, 4 or 5 bets preflop with a small or medium pair is very profitable.
In a very loose/wild game, I like to stick with the bigun's. It just costs to much to miss with little pairs. Overall, I think it is more profitable to fold.
Consider this hand I was in last night. I was playing on a mostly loose/passive 3/6 table. Not getting very many good hands, but picking up a few pots here and there. After 5 hours, I was up $75 and was ready to pack it in. Then things changed.
2 guys sat down at the table.
Guy#1 was a very tricky player, will act 'maniacal' for show right when he sits down for advertising, then tighten up later. Loves to bet losing hands all the way to the river, then say something like "If you can call, you win!" as he turns over his trash for the entire table to see. Sometimes his trash hits and he takes down monsters, but his swings are pretty enormous. Lately, he's been pretty lu