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Hi all,
No response on my A6o hand, maybe you guys like KK better.
6-12 pretty loose somewhat passive.
I get KK UTG and raise. Get 5 callers.
Flop comes AKJo. I decided to go for check-raise as there is probably some gut shots out there, and hopefully an ace will bet. It checks around.
Turn is another A. I bet out get one caller.
River is a blank, I bet again person to my left raises! I think for a bit and decide to re-raise, he just calls and flips over what?
Is the river re-raise a bad play? I saw the raiser flop a set with a two suited flop and never raise. He was also making loose calls on the river.
results to follow if people are interested.
any commments on my A6o post below would be nice as well!
Thanks,
Marc
I think you played the hand horribly. First, you cannot give the free card on the flop. You must bet out there. There is, at least in the games that I play in, a good chance the flop will check around. Then you have given a free card to make someone's straight.
I am pleased that it worked out for you. Nonetheless, I would have played this hand very fast. Further, at 6-12 you are trying to make a fancy move in a nonfancy game. Hell, I am not even sure that the players in the game would understand that your check raise indicatd a big hand.
It seems to me that making fancy plays against unsophisitcated players will lose you money far more often than it gets you extra bets.
Well, that is just my thought. These thoughts come from someone who has played low limit for sometime and averages 2.5 big bets per hour in that play.
Iowa,
I didn't think that the flop was super-dangerous, as the only drawing straight is a gutshot. They are probably getting odds to take one off anyway, so making them pay two bets seems good to me. It also seems ripe for a check-raise as there are probably aces out there looking to test the water.
At the 6-12 tables I play at check-raising doesn't usually count as overly tricky play. Everyone defintely notices and perks up a bit :) In this case, I did it without a preflop raiser behind me (usually a req. for me), but it seemed reasonable given the my hand and the texture of the flop.
I got your first point, where is the second?
M
I don't live all that close to the nearest river boat where hold'em is played. However, I love playing every chance I get. More times than none I find myself playing home games with crazy made up games. Does anyone feel like these games have any adverse affect on a real hold'em game?
The implication of "home game" vs. "real hold-em game" kind of bothers me, but probably it's because I, who own a used bookstore (i.e. we stock out-of-print, uncommon, and good mid- and backlist books)often hear phrases like, "I'll have to look for it in a real bookstore." Any poker game that is played for money by players who want the money is a real game (a good, real game, maybe not!). Cheers,
Dick Wilcox
next time somebody refers to your store as a not real book store lock them in a small room and force them to listen to brittany spears for 48 hours, then start filling the room slowly with water, that will teach them to respect the beauty of establishments like yours, instead of the corporate crap of the various book barns, filled with whatever the publishing houses tell them they should carry and nothing more. I am sorry to go off on a rant here but I have seen too many wonderous bookstores go the way of the dodo because of these shiney pieces of crap that could not care less about about the customer, or god forbid carry something that hasnet sold two trillion copies in the last week. so what if you dont have the latest edition of chicken soup for the necropheiliac soul, you probably have thousands of books that will actually cause people to think for a change. book barns make me nausious, I would imagine your store would make me giddy. keep the faith. oh and btw you dont have any destroyer paperbacks laying around do you?
I just played in a home game this past Friday where I played Holdem with people who have hardly ever played. They played any 2 cards, and when they flopped any pair they thought they had a hand. Two pair won nearly all the hands, with a few staights and flushes here and there. I can't count how many times the entire table saw the flop (7 people) and people raised with any pocket pair, or raised the turn with 2 pair like 8's and 6's. It was crazy. So what did I, the only somehwat clueful player get? J6o, 72o, A7o, etc. When I regularly folded these pre-flop, the others kept saying, "how can you fold before you even see the first 3 cards?" So these people won lots of cash while I got nothing. So they think they are really good Holdem players and I am a shmuck. Which is fantastic for me, because when I play next time, and the cards fall my way, they will still be raising with bottom 2 pair, and I will hit my top 2, trips, and nut flushes. Holdem is a great home game because anyone thinks they can win, and few realize what a real good hand is.
Thanks for all the insight. I agree with most of what eeveryone has said. I have just heard that it makes you play to loose because everyone else is. I play hold 'em and omaha as much as possible and it does confuse everyone to my advantage. I taking off for the nearest boat this week end. I'm sure I will have some questions when I get back.
I'm starting to feel like abe over on the General Theory page who is in the middle of (for him) a long losing streak. I was rolling along really well from mid-July to mid-August, not having a losing session in almost a month. No monster wins, but when you never make bogies, it's easy to shoot in the 60's, to use a golf analogy. I knew it was going to come to an end, and the other shoe has now landed squarely on my bald little head.
4-8 Dealer's Choice game last night, but the hand in question was HE, so I will post here. By the way, it was my first visit to the brand new Casino Yellowhead here in Edmonton, AB. For those other Albertans on the Forum, it's well worth the visit. Nice 12-table Poker room, well lit and ventilated, slots are in the other end of the building. Joint was jumping.
Anyway, I pick up QQ on the button. One limper who comes in first seated 2 to my right. I raise, and SB reraises. BB folds, limper cold calls the double raise, and I just call. SB is type who would normally reraise out of SB with a big pair or a big Ace, and I want to see the flop for only one more bet before deciding on a course of action.
Flop comes down 8-6-2 rainbow. SB checks and sure as God made little green apples, that's AK from this guy. He's not pulling anything funny, he just missed the flop. Limper now bets (??) and I raise to put pressure on the SB. He hesitates, but chucks it, and the limper reraises. Now this guy is extrememly loose and agressive, but a frequent bluffer, too. Heads-up, i am just not going to lay down an overpair to the board against this guy. I call.
Turn comes a Ten. Limper bets, I call. River, the deuce pairs. He bets again, a little too confidently, I'm thinking, but if he did play some cheese like 8-6, or T-8, I've just run him over. Anybody fold here? I didn't think so.
Anyway, this clown turns over 9-7o. Yes, he limped in first to act with this mess, and then had the presience to re-raise me heads-up on a draw. This is typical of my results over the past 10 days, and although I was slightly ahead at the time of this hand, I did not win so much as a split pot the entire rest of the evening (3 more hours) and I posted my sixth straight losing session, longest for me in over a year. abe, I share your pain. I'm far from being on tilt, because when I go back and look at the records, it becomes a little more comforting, but in the short term you might begin to wonder when the next win will be.
I empathize buddy! I have had many losses at this level rivaling that! Included in that is one where I flopped a flush, and a lady hit two running jacks for quads. Nature of the game. You will win a lot in the long run playing against that type of player. As you said, you hadn't lost in almost a month. At lower levels, you will see a lot of people call with their version of connectors-ie 2 cards "pretty close" to a straight. Happens all the time at lower levels. Live with it, but stick with the game plan!
jard - it happens at all levels.
Problem is as more thoughtful better players we are usally on the shitty end of the bad beat but then winning players will win more of these hands than they lose it is just hard to take when you do everything right and still lose.
But it is the game we choose to play and that is why I love it so much.
Golf and poker - I have to get my head examined I chose the 2 toughest games to spend my life playing.
Hey Dunc,
Look on the bright side - you may not be in the middle of a losing streak it could be over. Like a rush you don't know you're in it until it's ended.
:-)
Hi, Dunc ... I won't ask "How you doing?"
The real bright side to this story is how badly the draw-er played his hand. By betting his 8-out draw into a field of only 2 opponents (not percentage poker, although once in a while to mix up play would not be horrible), he gave you the opportunity to enhance your own chances of winning the pot. After you get the AK out, if this hand were played out 100 times you will win about 67 times, and that includes winning the AK's dead money.
Hang in there and play your hands right (you were fine on this one), and your losing streak will end when it ends.
PS - If Rick N. reads this, you will owe him a dollar.
Dick
Thanks Dick. The streak ended Thursday and I've booked two wins in a row. Played 5-10 last night for 3 hours in the new casino here in town. Had nine tables going from 3-6 up to 10-20. Novelty might wear off in a week or two. It will be interesting to see if they can sustain that level of interest and some slightly higher limit games in the 5-10 to 10-20 range night in and night out. Ciao.
Just to emphasize what Ray said ...
Since you posted this under "small stakes," your best game is both loose and passive. In a loose game with a high percentage rake (i.e. small stakes), you want to play a lot of implied-odds hands like suited connectors, suited aces, and small pairs. You want to get in with them for only one bet, since you will fold 75% or more of them after you see the flop.
When other players in my game are straddling, it definitely cramps my style. I cannot play suited aces, and suited connectors and small pairs become borderline for two bets - and don't forget that the gambling straddler can raise his own straddle and often does. Therefore I have to give up an awful lot of positive-EV starting hands.
If you really want to "jawbone" the other players into playing more to your liking, try showing off some of your most borderline plays, like suited kings or queens or low one-gap suited connectors, with comments about how many hands you play and how much you like the action. But don't encourage raising.
Dick
Dick well thought out post and I agree but I sure like isolating the straddler with a better than random hand.
5-10 holdem, 10 players.
Preflop:
Mid position solid player(MP) open raise. Cutoff(CP) cold call 2. All fold to me and I call with 45s in BB.
Flop: A45r
I check, MP bet, CP call, I call.
Turn: 6r
I check, MP bet, CP call, I raise! MP, CP both call.
River: Kr
I check, MP bet, CP call. What would you do here?
Would you play this hand a different way? Was I too greedy going for the C-R on the turn?
Results later.
I made a crying call at the end as MP turns over AKo and CP turns over AQo. Poker god was not on my side that particular night...
Not suprised to see the AK - I don't think you could have changed much by raising the flop with the pre flop activity - your check raise on the turn was a strong move and would have paid dividends if the K hadn't hit the river. You had to make the call as MP could have easily had AQ AJ AT and so could have the other guy.
You have to re-think your starting hands - med and small connected cards really have no business in a raised pot or played early.
Under what situation then would you defend your BB with small/med suited connectors? Lets say UTG raises PF, how many callers would have to be in the pot in order for you to call the 1 bet and see the flop?
Thanks.
If it's LL and there are limpers I can't see a raise from a late position player as a steal - he knows once the LL players have a penny in the pot they will see a cap to see a flop.
So the question is kind of mute - but in higher limits or in a tournament. With a hand like 67 I might call a raise on a habitual stealer with a couple of limpers I can always get away from the hand.
If I think he is just stealing and were heads up I'd raise him and bet the flop. Blind stealing is not a problem far as I am concerned except later in tournaments when the blinds get sky high and are worth it.
"Defending" blinds can get really expensive I see people every day losing money with rags cuz they feel they have something to defend. I view it as objective as I can - it's money in the pot not mine any more and I'm out of position when the flop comes. So I kninda need a real hand to move with.
Haven't read results or SB's post yet.
I'd say you have MP on a big A - hope it's not AK for your sake.
You have to call MP here CP also a problem maybe an Axs - Both can have 2 pair and a set is also possible.
I like the check raise on the turn representing a straight BUT they both stayed with you so your 2 little pair are vulnerable. I give you a 40-50% chance of winning from here.
"Preflop: Mid position solid player(MP) open raise. Cutoff(CP) cold call 2. All fold to me and I call with 45s in BB."
I usually like another player in before I make this call.
"Flop: A45r I check, MP bet, CP call, I call."
That's Okay.
"Turn: 6r I check, MP bet, CP call, I raise! MP, CP both call."
That's fine.
"River: Kr I check, MP bet, CP call. What would you do here?"
You probably should have bet. Since you checked, you can call or perhaps raise.
"Would you play this hand a different way? Was I too greedy going for the C-R on the turn?"
No, your turn play is fine. WIll you fold if the ace pairs?
>No, your turn play is fine. WIll you fold if the ace pairs?
Yes. Both MP and CP only call my check raise on the turn meaning that MP mostly likely has AK and CP has AQ or AJ and is tied to the pot. When K shows up on the river I figure even if I bet he's not going any where with his top two pairs and I was thinking about folding if he bets. However, the pot was pretty big so a call was in order.
I think your call pre-flop was fine. your getting 5 1/2 to 1 on your call and although it would be nice to have more callers, life's not perfect. You must be able to lay this hand down if the flop misses you though. If your the type who likes to "pull one off" when you know your beat, throw it away.
I don't slow play bottom two. I would probably bet this flop hoping to get raised, then re-raise. I want this pot now. Too many bad things can happen to bottom 2.
I'm looking for a little advice before I head to the boat this weekend. Last time I played I had a pretty good weekend. I play 3-6 and am I fairly conservative player. The first night I ended up playing till around 2:30 in the a.m. before the game finally broke up. I walked away up $80. The next afternoon an hour into playing I went hot. With in an hour and half to two hours I was up $350. I told myself to slow down and only play good cards. It was early and I wanted to play all night. Within the next two hours I had given around $175 of it back. I hit good hands about every deal but none of the flops helped them out. Did I become too conservative?
No. The game sometimes has swings like this.
Hi All,
I have problems deciding how to best play AKo.
When opening the betting I always raise with it. This seems correct. If there are fewer limpers than people left to act I raise. However I'm not sure what to do when there is a raise in front of me. Three-betting seems good if there are people left to act. Can you fold AKo preflop if it is three bets to you?
However I'm not too sure what to do when I am out of position and facing 4-5 limpers who will surely call one more bet. For example, would you want to raise a bunch of limpers out of the small blind?
Next, I have the problem of what to do when the flop misses me. I often get in the position where I have raised in late position, the flop misses me and all the limpers check to me. I usually feel obligated to put in a bet here, and try to pound people out. However, I'm guessing that I'm losing some money playing this way. Would anyone take the free card and then fold if bet into and the turn misses you?
On the other hand, if I don't raise preflop I feel that I can fold when someone in front of me bets at a flop that has missed me. Is folding 2 overcards this easily too weak? Say a Q or J high uncoordinated flop, can I call one bet to see the turn?
Does anyone have comments on playing AKo properly? How aggressively should you play it?
Thanks,
Marc
A-K is the most mis-played hand, far and away. Seasoned pros sttrugle with the same questions you are asking. Your strategy varies from hand to hand depending on your opponents.
Generally, I raise 90% of the time with AK. I'll re-raise all but the tightest rocks and I'll 4 bet if it's suited and I have position. If I raise and get more than 3 callers, I'll check the flop if it misses me. I am much more likely to check the flop if I have position.
If there's a bet to me I have a decision. A lot depends on the bettor and the texture of the flop. I don't like to just call with A-K. If I decide to continue I'll usually raise.
Of course if the flop hits you, it plays itself.
I will pretty much always raise with A-Ko. If in early position you want other players to fold to limit the field. Hopefully you can steal the blinds or get the hands heads up. A-K is not a great hand until the flop hits you so just winning the blinds would definitely be acceptable. If in late position I will raise as well to gain control of the betting on the flop.
I generally will not re-raise because I don't think A-Ko is worth three small bets. Remember you are in trouble if the flop does not hit you which is most of the time. One time I will three bet is when I am against someone with very weak raising standards. I will three bet this person to get the post heads up. If other players call three bets cold you know they have a good hand and the flop has to hit you.
Your question about what to do when the flop misses you is very good, I think most people play as you do. In otherwords they will bet when the flop misses them regardless of the situation. I do not agree with this strategy. It will depend on your position and the number of players in the hand. If in late position and three or four callers check to you I would check as well in order to get a free card. If the pot is short-handed I would bet because the flop probably did not hit your opponents either so you may win the pot with a bet. If you are in early position against a couple of callers I would check and fold if one of them bet. Remember they cold-called your raise so they must have a decent hand. You are not being weak by folding here. A-K is a drawing hand so treat it as such. If it doesn't hit get rid of it. If you always call with two overcards you are calling too much.
Marc,
I have said it many times AK is the most misplayed hand in poker - I am sure there is no one way to play it correctly all the time but I think you want to raise with it "much" more often than not and if you miss with it you want to fold it more often then not. So much depends on the personality of the table, the texture of the flop and your position.
If 3 bet by very good players I'd consider mucking it pre flop IF I thought one or both had AA/KK which really dominate the hand.
You should play it very aggressively pre flop and if you hit after the flop. You may be able to win with it if you play it aggressively in early position post flop when you miss had you raised pre flop.
Marc,
UTG, and early position I will raise 90% of the time, to limit and isolate blinds, or late position players. Mid position, if no one has called yet, I will always raise this hand, cutoff, button, same play. If im in cutoff, or button, or blinds, and there are more then two limpers, I just call, and hope for great flops. From the flop,if it fits, run with it, if it misses, run from it. Buck
I have been trying to be very selective on my starting hands, and also to be more agressive, and I have been doing very well, but I have been bleeding $$ to one specific situation, here are two different examples:
a. I hold 97s in the BB. 3 limpers + me. Flop comes Q97. I bet out. 1 caller. Turn is a Q. I bet, get called. River is a blank, I bet, get raised. Hm, finally I make a crying call. Guy has Qx.
b. I am in late position, have A9s. I raise, 2 callers. I get 2 pair on the flop (but 2 cards are suited). Check, check, I bet. Turn is third card of the same suit, no help for me...check, check, I bet, one caller. On the river, check, I bet, I get check-raised...I lose to a flush.
This has happened about 5-10 times recently...I am not complaining about the 22 times in a row my pair did not make a set, etc...but I have watched the 20-40 games, and it seems like the big bettors might have checked the 2 pair on the turn when any kind of scare card hits, save 2-3 bets, or at least make only one crying call on the end and save 1-2 bets....that's what my pal Bob, who plays in those game, suggests, I think he is probably right.
...I don't want to be run over either, so I need some reasonable gauge on how to play 2 nice pair or AK with an A on the flop when a scare card hits the turn ....this situation is getting to me.
thanks,
Mark
Hand #1 is a check and fold as soon as the Queen hits on the turn. You flopped a great hand but bottom two pair is tough to hold on to. If your opponent has a Q he can hit his kicker, make a running pair or (as in this case) hit a Q. Note that when a Q comes you are drawing dead, no card can save you. Unless the player is particulairly deceptive, you have to fold this hand to a bet.
Hand #2 is tough. I like the fact that you bet the river, a lot of players won't and they miss many bets. Depending on your opponent, you probably should pay him off.
It sounds to me that maybe you play the game with blinders on. Take some time and try to put your opponent on a hand. And don't always feel that you have to pay someone off. Folding is permitted and nothing feels better than folding a big hand and seeing that you made the right decision.
Stay selective and aggressive Winger
Happens to everyone - just play them strongly - until you know you are beaten - if you have a scare card a check is OK but with the full house possibilities I think you have to see the river and cry call if you miss the boat.
PS: I'd much rather have bottom 2 paird 67 than something like QT where a straight is almost surely looking you square in the eye.
I've logged over 125 hours live and countless hours on line (poker.net) and have come to this conclusion. Let me know if I'm all wet.
If you play your first two cards correctly, play average or better after the flop, you are simply waiting for a run of decent cards to maximize your potential profits while minimizing your losses.
You will have losses that are practically unavoidable, for example AA, AK etc cracked by runner runner winners. You'll get sucked out time and time again and wonder if you should be playing the game.
Then you'll play one day and win 75 big bets, hit almost everything and be king for a day. Kinda like golf, the great drive on the last hole keeps you coming back.
Sure, there are as many ways to play a hand as there are opinions, but for the most part, proper play is proper play and then there is gambling. Playing against people that don't know the game is the best, but if you play regularly, you know who you'll meet......regular players, pros and students of the game who are looking for that run of cards that make them winners.
Am I wrong, or does it come down to the luck of the draw? I'm sure that 10-15 years ago that, before the normal Joe was able to read, study and practice, fish swam freely and donated expendable income in a haphazard way. Now, games are tougher and it's turned into a chess match. Any opinions?
There are still plenty of people donating money at the tables. In most games there is a wide range of skill among the players. Better players win from weaker players. Even in somewhat tougher games, there is usually a bad player or two. Even in games without any bad players, the super good players still profit from the just plain good players (though some may argue about how much they win).
Those pros and students of the game that you mention are only a fairly small percentage of the players out there, though the percentage gets higher as you move up the limits.
If you're working on your game, I really don't think you ned to worry about unbeatable games until you get to some pretty high limits, and there it's certainly possible to pick and choose.
I venture a guess on average 20%/30% of the players are "students" of the game the other70- 80% are lose, tight, passive, weak, confused, ignorant (blind) aggressive or just plain stupid. I find the 20%'s vary somewhat in different parts of the country but by and large there are still a bunch of mopes playing poker in card rooms.
I've probably played against thousands of different players in different cardrooms, and can honestly say that I've only played against 2 people who I'm confident have beaten the game over the long run.
The nice thing about poker is that almost everyone who plays it sucks at it, and those who might not suck usually still play poorly.
Hold-Em poker is dominated by the luck factor. Reading books, having patience, discipline, studying the game, etc. gives you the best chance of winning but there is no guarantee that playing well will result in you winning like there would be in a game dominated by skill. If you become a good chess player, you will beat lesser players virtually every time. If you become a good duplicate bridge player and have a partner who is as good you, you will win many master points in tournament bridge.
But you have to think of hold-em like buying lottery tickets at a discount. The better you are as a player the deeper the discount. But even with a deep discount and having a positive expectation on each ticket you buy, since you can only buy one ticket per week, you could lose a lot of money over the course of your life if your number never gets chosen. Hold-Em poker works very much the same way. You could have a million expert $20-$40 players play 10,000 hours of $20-$40 hold-em against weaker opponents but that does not mean that all one million players would end up winners. Some would be losers.
Full tabled limit hold-em has a couple of constraints that diminish the skill factor considerably. In a full tabled limit game you will normally have to show down the best hand to win. Agreed that once in awhile you get to steal a pot or steal the blinds but the vast majority of your profit over the course of a year comes from showing down the best hand. In order to showdown the best hand you only have two options. You can start with the best hand and have it hold up or you start with a worse hand and get to suck out on the best hand. This is simply not the same for everyone. Some people get to have their hands hold up more than others and some people get to suckout on the best hand more than others. The disparity in these factors accounts for a large portion of the difference in players results. The other problem with hold-em is that the bet on the flop when five cards are available is only one small bet rather than one big bet. This results in someone who calls your bet on the flop with any piece of the board from only making a small mistake and frequently they are not making a mistake at all. The best hand cannot protect itself in this structure so chasing with any piece of the flop is not severely punished. I know that many experts like to make a big deal out of check-raising as a way of protecting your hand but it really isn't all that effective. Hold-em would be a much better game if the bet on the flop was a big bet and not a small bet. The guys who likes to chase would still chase but not be able to overtake the best hand at such a discounted price.
I am sitting in a loose passive game and have a good read on all players except for one that just sat down.I have QQ late,raise,3 callers including the new player out of the Blind(1 Blind game).Flop J,10,10 rainbow.Its checked to me I bet,new player check raises,next two muck.Now in this room you don't see many check raises and when it comes up they are virtually always monsters.Wanted to solicit opinion on what your thought process would be.
This is a very common situation and I would be interested in hearing what other posters have to say as well.
In my experience when this happens most of the time the check-raiser has a 10 and you are drawing very slim so you should fold. Obviosly the new player may be making a move on you and trying to represent a 10 when he only has a J or maybe nothing at all, however, I don't think you want to pay 5 small bets (1 to call his raise and 2 each on the turn and river) to find out. I think in the long run you save money by simply mucking here.
You said that there are very few check raises and when there is most of the time they are monster. That is my experience as well so get out early.
I think the reason you mostly see monsters after a check raise is that most players at this limit will not fold to a check raise, so most smart players won't check-raise bluff. Check-raise bluffing is an advanced play best left against opponents you have seen folding against the check raise or you know are capable of laying down a good hand to the check raise...not usually at the LL tables.
Since you don't know the "new guy" (it might be me) he might be making a move trying to establish him self real quick - I'd reraise him - if he just calls maybe he has a big J (KJ AJ) - you are still drawing live.
I lot of times a reraise will just get a muck from someone and a call - bet the turn and he will just muck 1/2 the time. I am really wary of a check raise on the flop - IF he flopped a monster why not wait until expensive streets to make the move.
This looks a lot like a hand I played on Friday at Aurora.
I consider that one of the most dangerous flops there is and have lost a lot of $$ to it.
However when i do not know the player and it is heads up and i have a over pair to the board, i am call him down if for no other reason than to show i can not be pushed off a hand that easy.
4-8 game at the Horseshoe in Tunica. Two manaics to my immediate right dominating the game. Player to my immediate right had raised with 5-3, 10-6 suited, and j-7 suited in the last 1/2 hour. I pick up pocket 9's on the button. Two callers to the maniac who raised. Callers were loose passive and loose agressive. I call. Blinds fold. Flop is 10-3-5 rainbow. Check-check-bet. I raise and get heads up with the maniac. I acknowledged the possibility i was beat here, but wanted the two other players out. Turn is rag. Check to me. I bet he calls. River is a rag. Check to me and I check also. Maniac turns over 10-7 offsuit. Any thoughts?
played with the same nuts last nite. Play good cards and if you watch there stacks and listen to there whining you'll see they'er big losers but have fun winning all those pots. Wait and win.
I think I have to agree with Pat here. You should be patient and wait until you have a better hand to call the maniac down with and raise him when you have a very good hand, such as top pair or overpair.
I suspect what happened was that the manicas were continually raising and you had to fold a lot of hands you otherwise would have called with and then you see what kind of crap they are raising with and you say to yourself that you should call them more often. Perhaps you should call them more often, however, don't get carried away with it.
Your pre-flop call was correct. However, with an overcard on the flop you have to be concerned. When the maniac bets I would probably just fold and wait for a better situation to call him down.
You were also in a good position at the table because both maniacs were to your right so when your good hand does come you can let them do a lot of the betting for you. When this happens you can then raise the maniac and make him pay. I will often raise on the more expensive streets because you can be pretty sure they will bet for you. For instance in the above hand if you had JJ, I would smooth call the flop and raise on the turn.
You played it just right - better luck next time. The maniac could have played 2 over cards on an under pair just like he did.
PS: When playing maniacs NEVER assume any card is a rag :-)
When you saw the ten on the flop you could have assumed that the maniac matched the top pair beating your nines. You said you thought you were beat here. It seems that you went for the "hope" card, either another nine ot pair on board. If pair on board maniac would have you beat any way. You probably did not do wrong by buying the turn card and the river but if you were losing, being conservative may have been the way to go, then wait for the hand where you were stronger.
john b,
I think your flop raise is a good play. Most hands a maniac would bet on the flop cannot beat your pair of nines, and you should not give anybody a cheap or free turn card to hit to a hand like KJ. You should definitely not give up the ten small bets in the pot just because a ten flopped. No way.
Your turn bet as a likely favorite seems mandatory to me.
Nice T7-off, sir. Next hand please.
--- Carl
With the players you describe, I think with pocket 9's on the buton, it definitly calls for a reraise preflop. Once the flop comes, if it doesnt fit your hand, either fold or raise..either play is appropiate. A call sucks...on the turn I would fold. You have to remember, even holding pocket Aces, these hands arnt meant to win every time you hold them. They are just "premium" hands, meaning, if you bet them they will win more often then lose, therefore making a profit for you on the average. WE all get irritated when someone wins holding rags, and playing against "our" quality hands. Strangely enough tho, I can't ever remember getting frustrated, when these same players build the pot up, and pay me off for their poor card selection. Just play quality hole cards, then, if the flop doesnt help, run from them as fast as you can, simple, but effective, boring, but profitable. Buck
I play at Paradise Poker in a 2/4 game. The SB is forced to bring in $1. I am unsure of what my requirements should be as far as calling the other $1. Typically, between 2 and 5 players call, so the implied odds seem so good that I should be playing just about anything. In fact, is there anything I shouldn't be playing? Or is the positional disadvantage enough to limit my play to say Group 8 or better? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Mojay
Hi folks,
I've been playing a fair bit of Hold'Em online at Paradise recently. The games are a little different from those I experience in live play, and I've had a bit of trouble judging the appropriate level of aggression. So, in this and my next post, I'll give examples from either end of the passive-aggressive spectrum for comment/criticism.
This hand finds me on a marginally loose-passive 2/4 table.
PREFLOP
I'm in the SB with As Qh. One middle position limper (MPL). This player is very weak amd timid and relatively easy to put moves on. Everyone else folds to me. Figuring I have the best hand, and setting up a possible steal, I raise. BB folds. MP calls.
2 active players, with 5 small bets in the pot.
FLOP: 5h 4h 7d
I bet my overcards, expecting to win it right there. I have likely outs to both overcards and also to runner runner hearts. MPL calls.
7 small bets in the pot.
TURN: Kh
MPL's flop call likely means I'm up against a pair. I doubt the straight, as I would have been raised, and a hearts draw is a distant possibility as well. Although I'm dubious as to whether MPL will fold a pair, the Kh should be a scary card, and I don't want to be put in the check and call position, so I bet out again. MPL calls.
5.5 big bets in the pot.
RIVER: 9h
OK, I get lucky! I bet my second nut flush, MPL calls. I win, and MPL shows Qs 7s.
Did I overplay my hand here? I'd appreciate comments on my preflop, flop, and turn plays.
Dave
I like the way you played it. On the turn when the King falls your bet should have ended it. After all, what kind of hand would you raise in the sb?
At 2-4 it's hard to know if your opponent is even considering your holding. The fact that MPL didn't raise your bet with top pair AND didn't fold on the turn makes him someone you want to play with often.
How can you be to aggressive with a bluff??? - you were betting your over cards for value and got a very weak player to pay up. I'd be a bit careful bluffing in a 2-4 game there is not much leverage and you are bound to have to show a lot of winning hands.
OK, following on the heels of my previous post, here's a hand where I'm not altogether pleased with how I played the river.
Once again, 2/4 HE on Paradise. Loose-passive lineup.
PREFLOP
I am in the cutoff with 3h 3d.
3 limpers to me, I limp, button limps, SB calls, BB checks.
7 players active, with 7 small bets in the pot.
FLOP: 3c 7s Ks
Excellent flop for me. I have to worry a little about the spades draw, but I can't complain too much. 3 checks to middle position limper (MPL) who bets. NP folds, I raise. Button coldcalls, remainder of the field folds, MPL calls. MPL is a weak player who calls far too much on every street and fails to extract maximum value from his good hands. The button to this point has impressed me as a mediocre to good player. In the previous two hands, he had suffered a couple of "heartbreaker" losses, and may be quasi-tilting.
3 active players, 13 small bets in the pot.
TURN: 7d
Well, my fears about the spades draw just evaporated. MPL checks, I bet, button raises!?! Hmmmm. MPL cold calls. {Blink...} Well ... damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead: I reraise. Button caps. MPL cold calls again.
There are now 18.5 big bets in the pot.
RIVER: 5s
Oh goodie! MPL made a flush, I hope. But I'm a little concerned about the button capping the turn. While I do have a full house, it is vulnerable. It is a possibility that the button slowplayed 77 until the turn. (I discount KK, as I would have heard about it by now.) Of course, this is 2/4, so I could be shown K7 (suited, of course :) ), or even 73. Of course, the button could be overplaying a singleton 7 as well, but I'm unsure as to whether he'd cap it.
Obviously I'm not about to muck my hand, but I decide to check and call. The round checks through.
MPL shows Kh Jd for 2 pair. Button has Ad 7h. My full house wins.
Did I wimp out here? Should I have bet the river, and called any raises back to me? Or was my playing it safe a good call? I certainly felt as if I left another couple of bets on the table...
If i have a big hand on the river,and nothing realy changed from the turn i make 1 bet, if raised and i do not have very close to the nuts, but there is a lot of hands that i can beat i just call.
I hate not making max bets, which use to be one of my biggest leaks in low limit .
Yes. Since this is only low limit holdem, so I'd at least bet the river one more time. If button just calls and MPL check raises, you can then 3 bet again. If button two bets, then you can pick either call or 3 bet depending on his fish factor. So you missed about one big bet from each player. It's alrite. We all learn from our mistakes. ;-)
You had to put the turn raiser on a 7 it it were 7K you are in trouble. I see nothing to wrong with the caucious play on the river - caucious is sometimes good. I probably would have check raised at this point cuz I am 80-90% sure I have a winner on my hands.
After a series of successful forays into holdem at the 4-8 level, I am looking to move up in limits. Unfortunately, with the exception of a 5-10 game at the Grand Casino in Marksville Lousiana, the next lowest level is 10-20 which I am not comfortable playing at. The one option might be a 3-6-12 (1-3 blinds) spread limit game spread at the Grand in Kinder la. I am not a big fan of spread limit. In terms of strategy, my expectation is that the game does not play much different than the average low limit game. My feeling is that with the big spread in the early low bets and the much higher later bets, there is probably a greater range of hands that you can play pre-flop as long as you do not get married to them when the bets go up. Any other general thoughts on strategy for spread limit with a high range in bet sizes or this game in particular?
I'd think if more in terms of a pot limit mentality.
In other words you can see more flops maybe playing low pairs and other combos that you wouldn't playin a straight structured game.
I think you are on the right track - got to really play well after the flop though.
Please help I am teaching my wife to play Hold Em. She will not listen to me, hqwever anything off a computer is Gospel. I have no idea which program to buy. Thanks for any help.
I have been very happy with Wilson's Turbo Texas Hold'em
I would appreciate info regarding the button drops charged by LA casinos for 2-4 to 6-12 games, and how these collections are reduced for short-handed games. Do casinos charge the max collection for 7-handed games? 6-handed? By how much do they reduce the drop when games become short?
I was in a pretty loose 4-8 Hold'em game at the Hustler Casino. This maniac comes to the table from a 6-12 game with his $2 chips and doesn't want a color change. He's raising every hand and pretty soon his $2 chips were spread all around the table. The guy next to me said he was a long time dealer at the Commerce.
I'm in middle position with pocket Aces and raise, call, the Maniac three bets on the button, the next two players limp in and I cap it for five players in. The flop comes JAA rainbow. UTG checks, check, I bet, fold, Manic then raises!, fold, fold and I call.
The turn is a K,I check and he bets saying "She doesn't have anything!!!" I just call. The river is a 9, so the board is JAAK9 rainbow. I bet, he raises, I reraise, we go back and forth until I was all in at six BBs. I show down my pocket rockets and he is absolutely stunned. Cursing under his breath he keeps staring at his pocket K's and the board in disbelief.
Interested in what you think of my strategy play on my flopping quads against a maniac.
Rounder, what do you think?
Thanks.
I like your slow-play on the flop (i.e., not reraising) since you are now head-up with a maniac and your hand is invulnerable. The maniac's comment "She doesn't have anything!" while betting is a verbal tell suggesting that he has a big hand. I would favor check-raising/reraising the turn, but you wound up with all the money anyway! Good job.
...and when when the nuts are not flopped...?
Lady Rounder,
I think you played fine, especially the check call on the turn. The only mistake I see is YOU SHOULD HAVE HAD MORE MONEY ON THE TABLE. Next, time don't play with a short stack.
Your preflap, turn, and river play are by the book, whereas your flop play could stand improvement.
a) Flopping quads, your strategy is to keep all the five participating players in. With your flop lead betting, you are excatly defeating that strategy.
b) Let the Maniac open the flop betting; it befits his lose, aggressisve image. An opening flop bettng from that type of player will hardly scare anyone out.
c) On the other hand, when you lead the flop bet with that type of board compounded with your tabel image (I suspect tight/conservative aggressive?!?), the others got the quickly realized the futility of playing on their respective hands.
d) Finally, on the turn you should have patiently waited until the Maniac bets, other hopefully/faitfully call, and than you bump them.
If endeared with your kind of flop, this is how I would have executed it.
I agree with Ivan in the fact that ideally you would love to keep all the players in when flopping quads, but I don't know how you could have done it in this situation. By having quad aces you have crippled the deck. What are these limpers going to call with, even if you were to leave the betting to the maniac? There aren't many (any?) cards that could come on the turn that would improve their holding enough to give you any more action. Besides, if they respect your play, as Ivan eluded to, they should be just as afraid of your call as they would have been of your bet. The other players would have to figure you have them beat anyway because you have to have a made hand. What are you going to draw at with a paired board, a gutshot straight? I think not. I can't say if what you did was strategically correct (I'm not exactly the best player myself), but I think you got the most you could have out of the situation, which is the ultimate goal.
LR - I like the way you played the hand - gotta punish the maniacs when ever you can.
Similar thing happened to me a few days ago I had 88 and a maniac on my left 88K 2 suited falls. I know the maniac will bet my hand all the way to the river and a couple of limpers were there too. I checked the flop, he bet 2 callers turn rag I check he bets I raise were heads up river I bet he calls I win he mucks I suppose he has a K rag off suit - this wacko played every hand but one in several hours and bet and called raises mostly to the river. I played him like a violin for almost 4 hours and he lost $1000 playing 5-10 he moved to the 15-30 and I would have followed him but the board was to long.
Rounder,
Thanks for the advice on how to play a maniac like a violin. I'll definitely try that next time.
I can relate to your responses more than anyone else. That's why I was interested in your response to my play.
You certainly did the best thing because you take all the chip of the maniac...
Online 5-10 planet poker.
AKo 2 left of blinds. UTG limps I raise. 7 take the flop for two bets.
8 T A rainbow.
BB bets, UTG raises, I make it three bets which get called by Player to my left (PTML), button, BB and UTG.
$145.00 in pot.
At this point I'm pretty sure with this kind of pot and 2 parts to two different straights that no one has AA or a set to protect, but it seems no one is really that scared that I might have AA or AK. Turn . . .
8 T A J rainbow.
BB bets out and UTG calls.
$165.00 in the pot and I have as outs 2 aces. And this is assuming I'm behind at this time. But what could BB have with UTG calling? A8, AJ, AT, JT, KQ, T8, J8.
I can't picture a card that helps me on the river so I fold.
Yes, I folded top pair top kicker on the turn.
Comments?
You had sufficient pot odds to call for a queen to make the nut straight--even if one of the queens is held by an opponent. This, combined with the possibility that an ace would also be an out (and the very slim chance a king would help or your hand is good), makes your fold very bad IMO. You should be more reluctant to fold good hands in BIG pots.
Thanks for the response and I believe this is a leak in my game.
As it turned out it was a bad fold (I see that now) that saved me a fortune.
I folded, PTML raises it behind me, bb and UTG call.
River was a 7. BB bets UTg folds PTML raises, BB calls.
BB had T9.
PTML had 99.
final board was 8 T A J 7.
When I folded I was still leading.
Playing 3-6 at commerce in a typical loose but not overly aggressive game, I had QQ under the gun. I limped, button raised, several others called. No need to comment on my limp here, I have read and considered the pros and cons. Some advocate limp, others advocate raise. Sometimes I raise, sometimes I limp.
Flop: AQx. I bet, button raised again, SB called, I called. I considered button held AA, AK, AQ.
Turn: 10. Board: A,Q,x/10. I bet, button raises, SB re-raises. I consider SB to have hit a straight holding KJ. In spite of that, I called two cold hoping to hit the full house and hoping button has AK.
River: x. I check, button checks, SB bets. I make a crying call, button calls. SB shows KJ for a straight, button has pocket aces for AAA.
The only card that would have saved me was a Q which in this casino would have paid a $2,700 bad beat jackpot (Aces full of tens beat by four of a kind). I did not consider this at the time. I don't play with my eye on the jackpot.
I have a lot of trouble with these kinds of hands. Where on the turn, I think I could be beat, but still have the odds to draw on the river. I don’t hit and make a crying call because the pot is big. It never seems to work for me. In this case, it cost me 3 big bets. Comments please.
"Playing 3-6 at commerce in a typical loose but not overly aggressive game, I had QQ under the gun. I limped, button raised, several others called. No need to comment on my limp here, I have read and considered the pros and cons. Some advocate limp, others advocate raise. Sometimes I raise, sometimes I limp."
Two Queens is the hand that I am least likely to limp with.
"Flop: AQx. I bet, button raised again, SB called, I called. I considered button held AA, AK, AQ."
Okay so far.
"Turn: 10. Board: A,Q,x/10. I bet, button raises, SB re-raises. I consider SB to have hit a straight holding KJ. In spite of that, I called two cold hoping to hit the full house and hoping button has AK."
Okay so far.
"River: x. I check, button checks, SB bets. I make a crying call, button calls. SB shows KJ for a straight, button has pocket aces for AAA.
The only card that would have saved me was a Q which in this casino would have paid a $2,700 bad beat jackpot (Aces full of tens beat by four of a kind). I did not consider this at the time. I don't play with my eye on the jackpot."
Yes, but you don't know that when you originally called on fourth street.
"I have a lot of trouble with these kinds of hands. Where on the turn, I think I could be beat, but still have the odds to draw on the river. I don’t hit and make a crying call because the pot is big. It never seems to work for me. In this case, it cost me 3 big bets. Comments please."
You need to be absolutely sure that there is no chance that your hand is good. Sometimes this will be the case. But you are looking at a very big pot and even if there is only a tiny chance your hand is the best a call can be correct.
Tyro-- Believe me, I know how frustrating these kinds of hands can be. But, take heart-- you won't ever go broke making crying calls with sets on the river.
Hi There,
I'm pretty new to the game (just moved up to 6-12 after a few months of 2-4 and 3-6), but I would have three bet the flop, and seen what the raiser did. You think he has either AA, AK or AQ. The other guy is drawing. Out of the possible hands the raiser has you beat the majority of them. If you feel that this guy would raise AQ, then then number of way to make AK and AQ versus AA tell me that I should raise. Charge the guy drawing the max!
You were drawing dead to the last queen, but most of the time you would have been ahead on the flop, and should make them pay...
On the flop you decide to play as if the raiser had AA rather than AK/AQ, on the turn you switch and decide he has AK/AQ...
Tough hand, but I wouldn't fret too much after losing a bunch of money when you flop QQQ and your opponent flops AAA. You're trapped pretty badly. Most of the time you'll flop those QQQ's and get paid off by the people fighting it out each with an A for top pair, and the guy who misses his draw... :)
Also, UTG I would tend to want to raise with QQ if it will limit the field, if it won't I could limp with it too and see the flop... But when the flop makes me trips, I'm raising as much as I can until the scare cards and the betting screams stop. Probably the turn in this case :)
Marc
even if you knew that someone had AA (your worst possible scenario) I think a call is still in order, given odds the pot is laying you.
Usually a jackpot is paid 50% to the loser, 25% to the winner and the rest divided up. the 25% that you stood to win comes out to =$675 which is essentially a 56.25-1 payoff for hitting your hand, plus whatever is in the pot. I think it's an easy call.
I think either way, though, you have to call with the second set. maybe not the river if there's too much action, but the turn definately. I would probably grit my teeth and call the river too. If you flop a set and lose, it will cost you, no two ways about it.
Hi all,
Here's a hand that came up tonight that I'd like comment on. I'll post the hand history, and ask for your commentary, then give results seperately.
I'll report the action in roman text, and give my comments and thought processes in italics.
Somewhat loose, mostly passive game $2/$4 online game at Paradise Poker. At this point, the table is 9 handed.
PREFLOP
I have Jd Jh in early middle position. UTG limps, next player folds.
I'm in the twighlight zone ... I've got a couple of the better, tighter players to my right who I know I can blow out of the pot with a raise, but then there's a couple of fish immediately behind them who I cannot vouch for. I know "Raise in a tight game, call in a loose game" is the mantra for early position, here I'm unsure.
Figuring I might be able to keep it shorthanded, I raise. Both good players drop, loose fish (LF) calls, aggressive fish on the button calls (AF), both blinds call, UTG calls.
Well, my attempt to get the pot shorthanded backfired, didn't it? But come to think of it, I should have expected as much. On the other hand, I've got reasonably good applied odds to hit a set...
6 way action, 12 small bets in the pot.
FLOP: 5s 7h 9h
Well, I've seen worse.
SB bets out. SB hasn't really caught my attention--he's neither particularly good or particularly bad.
BB calls. He's a reasonably good player, so I'll have to be careful.
Next player folds and I raise.
I figure my overpair is likely the best until someone tells me otherwise, plus I've got backdoor outs to (non-nut) straights and flushes.
Now LF 3-bets. He usually is pretty passive, so I'm a little worried at this sudden show of strength.
AF cold calls the 3 bet. This is par for the course for this guy.
SB calls, but the BB now folds. Good, I'm rid of the best opponent.
I call, albeit with some trepidation.
4 active players, 25 small bets in the pot.
TURN: Ts
I'm not sure whether I like this card or not. I've lost the questionable backdoor flush draw, but I now have 3 extra outs to an 8 for the straight, which hopefully overcoats anybody's flopped straight or two pair. On the other hand, my two outs to the jacks are getting progressively murkier.
SB and I check to LF who bets. AF and SB call.
At this point, I am getting 15.5 to 1 odds on a call, and I close out the betting. I need 14.3 to 1 to chase my 3 outer, discounting the small chance that my hand may still be good.
I call.
Still 4 active players, 16.5 big bets in the pot.
RIVER: 9d
OK, I'm still dead to the straight or trips, but I may have overcoated somebody's bottom two pair. I may have to call this one down.
SB and I both check, LF bets. AF calls, SB folds.
At this point, I'm getting 18.5 to 1 on a call, so I only need to have the best hand a little more than 5% of the time for this call to pay off. Considering my opponents are the two fishiest at the table...
I call.
All comments/criticisms/abuse on my preflop, flop, turn and river play appreciated.
OK nothing wrong with your aggressive play preflop and flop now when a passive guy 3 bets the flop maybe I shut down a bit could he have a 68 and called a raise with it??? Your check call on the turn and river are OK but I think you have to think at this point with a T on the turn a J won't be an out for you and you are most likley beat by a straight, trip 9's or even a full house.
Hey Dave,
Nice post, I'm going to steal you formatting with the use of italics (how do I insert them?)...
Yeah, tough call preflop... usually I don't raise JJ into a table of loose passive people. But if you can get some people to drop it seems ok. Usually, I hope on flopping a J to make a set, so I limp with JJ. But after you raise you're potentially going to be out of position against a big table...
The flop looks good to me. The best flop would have a J in it, but an overpair can win here too. The raise is correct of course. But the three-bet behind you is big trouble! What is your read on loose fish? Most players would raise preflop with a big wired pair, so he has hit the flop somehow. To me a three-bet at a loose-passive low-limit table indicates two-pair at the least, most likely he's got 55, 77 or 99. Another option is Axh (maybe A5h?) and he's raising the nut flush draw (with the extra overcard or pair). Or he's playing some 68o crap and really hit the flop!
The rest depends on your read on the fishy player. If he's not tricky then you are toast, he flopped a set or a straight. The odds that he flopped bottom 2 pair, versus something with a nine (or a set or the straight) are pretty slim. If you don't have a super good read on him, I would call him down.
I vote for 9's full.
Marc
Sorry my prediction for his hand would be set on the flop resulting in either 55599, 77799 or 9999 (ack!)
What happened? I don't imagine that you won :(
Marc
Well, I figured I had no way to win this one, but given the odds, 5% seemed good enough to justify a call on the end.
Both Rounder and Mark pointed out the possibility of a set ... which I don't deal with in my post. This is primarily for the reason that both LF and AF tended to raise pocket pairs as low as 55 regardless of previous action. So I was pretty sure I was looking at 2 pair or the flopped straight.
At any rate, LF turns over Ad 7c. 3 betting a two flush board with second pair and an ace overcard?? Then AF turns over Th 6h ... ok, he had a gutshot and flush draw on the flop, paired the turn, two pair on the river, so I can maybe justify his play.
My two pair, JJ99 wins!
I guess the moral of the story is that when playing against fishy opponents, if you have any realistic chance (5% or more) of winning the hand, you have to call them down on the river.
This particular hand absolutely stunned me, but made my night a very profitable one!
PS For those of you interested in how to format posts as in my original, you simply include HTML style tags in the raw text as you're typing your message.
For example, for bold text, you do something like (omit the "_" characters, they're just there to prevent the tags from actually being executed.)
<_B_> Insert text here <_/B_>
Similarly, italics use
<_I_> Insert text here <_/I_>
Wow!
Hands like that will sure make your night... Poker gods smiling down upon you.
Thanks for the formatting hint...
I don't think I've ever had a pair of jacks as an overpair and been thinking about running-running straights and flushes. Why do you think you were behind? It's a beautiful flop for your hand. The turn doesn't likely hurt you (unless someone had 9-10, or the 3 bettor has 10-10). The river is brutal.
I cap the flop, raise the turn and get down on my hands and knees and pray when i throw in my chips on the river.
It seems to me your over complicating a pretty straight forward hand.
You don't play much low-limit, do you?
When a normally passive opponent 3-bets the flop of 5 7 9, you have to start thinking that 86 is a possibility. You can't rule out 95,97, or A9 either. Any two cards can win, and they often do in low-limit. Add to that the possibility of a higher overpair that limped (common in low-limit), and I would have bet he was beat for sure. I would have played it just like him, but I sure wouldn't have enjoyed it.
He played it right, and was right to worry.
Actually I've played a fair bit of low limit and still do. Yes it's possible that someone flopped 2 pair, a straight or a set. But all the players called a raise which makes it less likely. It's not easy to get a flop you love when you hold Jacks. If you have an overpair, the board is almost always coordinated enough that a straight is possible. I find that it's best to play it fast and try to reduce the field.
Two things surprise me about the results. He says that the player is loose-passive yet he also said he will raise with any pocket pair. Given that this player 3 bet him with 2nd pair,this doesn't sound like any passive player I know.
Secondly, the aggressive maniac didn't raise the turn with top pair, flush draw and an 8 for a straight.
Regular readers know that I have a buddy, a retired senior that I introduced to HE about 3 years ago. He plays virtually every day, usually with largely the same cast that starts the 3-6 game up every day at 11:00 a.m. He's very conservative, too much so IMO, and has the reputation as a real rock. As a result, he gets little action with his good hands, but he is able to successfully bluff some because of his table image.
In a 3-6 game a couple of days ago, an early position player raises. A weak calling station calls, and the action comes around to our hero on the button. He has AsKs. He FOLDS! Sure enough, two spades come on the flop, another on the turn, and he would have won a nice little pot. Turns out the raiser had AA, and the WCS had K-T. Now I'm playing at a different table that night, and my friend comes over between hands to moan about his 'bad luck'. I told him luck had nothing to do with it - that folding AKs to one raise in a limit game was purely and simply horrible poker. End of discussion, and he got what he deserved. He tries to mitigate his action by saying, "But the guy had Ace's! I was a big underdog. And there's only two other guys in the pot. I'm only getting 2:1 on my money." I told him he had it backwards: with AKs in a 3-way hand, he's the one giving the odds, not the underdog.
I told him there were two scenarios in which I would fold AKs to one raise with one caller and I have the button. 1) The guy flashes his hand and I see the AA. 2) I'm struck by lightning before it's my turn to act. I told my pal that if he didn't believe me and everone else in the room that he made a huge mistake, I would post the hand on the Forum and let him get ripped by poker players from around the world.
Also, I think a bigger mistake than actually folding his hand (if that's possible) is making his decision public knowledge! I told him, "Why is it you think you don't get win many big pots? And why is it you get your BB raised much more than everyone else? Do you think these are coincidences?" He plays such a low variance "Weak Tight" game. I believe he has the skills and table presence to do much better than he does, but until he quits making plays like this that just help put a big target on his forehead, he will never do any better than he does.
Flame away, and don't be gentle.
This seems like bad play to me.
I think that I would raise with this hand after an early position raise and one caller. Mainly to do two things: (1) Get the blinds out of the hand and (2) See how the early raiser reacts.
You have position, and you have a hand that plays better against fewer people. It also plays well against a lot of people, relying on the suitedness, but your options are to play against 3 people or 4-5.
If you raise preflop you can get the hand down to 3 players and the cold-caller knows that he is likely trapped between two big hands. So if he doesn't get slammed by the flop, it'll likely be down to you and the raiser post-flop. Heads up with AKs seems good to me.
It mainly comes down to what you think that the raiser has. If he'll raise all sorts of hands in early position then you have to at least call here (i vote for raise). If you knew 100% that he had AA you could fold if it was him and a cold-caller. But if he had AA and there were also a bunch of callers behind him, you would have to call for the flush value of your hand.
If you fold AKs for one raise preflop, I can only imagine that your game is way, way too tight. Do you ever raise without the nuts? Are you one of those players who slow-plays a flopped straight because the board was 2-suited and you wanted to see if the flush was gonna make it first? Do you typically call when you flop two pair? Do you never bet or raise with a draw?
Checking and calling is a really bad way to play this game. Tight is good, but once you get a hand you should punish people who play trash.
Tight-weak isn't the worst way to play, you're still playing better than all the terrible low-limit gamblers, but you can improve your game by adding some aggression.
Marc
I agree with you Dunc but this guy is settled in his ways don't try to change him you will make an enemy of a friend and worse yet you may make a tiger out of a fish.
How is this for weak/tight. I am in cutoff with QQ and raise (no limpers yet) I get called by this pain in the ass guy on the button (who has been playing 6 months and "thinks" he is WSOP champoinship calaber) he is criticizing others starting hands and making what he thinks are "great" lay downs. Any way this guy who is a golf caddy calls my raise. blinds fold.
Flop comes with a Kxx - I bet he shows me KQ and folds saying I know what you have - AK right.
I said no I had KK - didn't want to burst his bubble.
NOW if you want a defination of weak tight put a picture of this guy in the dictionary.
Bad news though - I understand he is moving back to the South for the winter but will return next summer.
I don't think there is any danger with this guy of alienating him. We rarely play in the same games and I consider him a sort of 'project'. I just can't stand seeing him make these sort of plays, and if he gets better and runs over the other retirees and shift workers who play in the afternoon, it's not a lot of money out of my pocket.
Did you get my private e-mail yesterday? Don wants to talk to you about his condo in Phoenix but he doesn't have your phone number. Check your in-basket, and send me a private response when you get time. Thanks.
send him on down rounder, we could shure use a few more like him.
There are some players that play the low-limit games that never raise unless they have Aces or Kings. So, if your friend thought he was one of these players he would be correct to throw away his Ace-King.
This reminds me of a session at the Mirage in a 10-20 game a number of years back. A weak tight lady raised and I reraised her with pocket Jacks. Why I played the hand against her I don't know, but I did. We are heads-up and the flop comes AJx. She bets, I raise, she reraises, and I muck. This is the only time playing limit hold-em I can recall laying down a set on the flop. She flashes her pocket Aces.
Bruce
thanks Dunc, you gave me my laugh for the day. I guess he doesn't get involved in too many raised pots if AKs on the button isn't good enough to call.
I'm on the board for 10-20 and sit down to the 5-10 and once again the game is to good to leave I know I can take this table down for a lot of money so why should I leave for a game I scouted and didn't think is as good if anyone can give me a reason to move please do.
Anyway:
In the game a few weak tight players a rock a few loose aggressive and me - playing tight aggressive as I can while still mixing it up when appropiate then this hand came up.
I am mid position but might as well be the button I raise JsTs and blinds call sb is a rockish kid barely 18 talking about his phoney ID's and a new player who is playing way to many hands.
Flop comes 8s9sxred sb bets, bb calls I raise my straight flush draw. Turn is a sb checks bb bets I raise sb calls bb raises I cap the nut straight other 2 call. River is a checked to me 6s I show the flush sb shows set of 8's bb shows a red J I assume he had a T behind it.
I was a bit concerned about a check raise on the river as the betting could have reflected a big fulsh draw.
Comments:
Rounder,
I think you've been playing too much no-limit poker. You should have bet on the end, you would have got at least one cryin call.
Obviously, they were afraid of the flush on the river. The only one that could have possibly had a flush was the SB, but he would bet the river. Why? In these low-limit games when they make a big hand they usually bet it.
"...so why should I leave for a game I scouted and didn't think is as good if anyone can give me a reason to move please do."
How much worse does the 10-20 have to be for you to pass on it? If it's not TOO much worse, it should be worth more. Just a thought.
I assume you meant the turn was a 7 or a Q.
"River is a checked to me 6s I show the flush sb shows set of 8's bb shows a red J I assume he had a T behind it."
Rounder, use that period key, would ya?! It would make it easier to read your stuff. :-) Anyway, the bb had a jack? I don't quite get it.
But regardless of what he had, I basically agree with mah. Though there are not guarantees, usually they know that you know there's a flush draw out there, so usually they just bet out if they hit it on the river, not wanting to have you check behind them. But of course you have to base your action on what you know of the players and what they may be thinking. But more often than not you can bet again here and be paid off.
Ray turn was a Qh - sorry.
I just hate leaving a game I am beating even if it is lower limit than the game I really want. Maybe I am just to lazy.
I'm UTG in an average 3-6 Paradise game and pick up pocket aces. They had just seen me raise preflop the hand before with AJ off (pretty much my minimum early position raising hand), so I figure to get action. I raised, middle position (MP) called, button raised, small blind (SB) called, I capped, all called. The flop came Q85 rainbow. SB bets, I raise, MP and button cold-call, SB calls. Turn is a 9, still rainbow. SB bets again! I don't like this one bit, I figure that I'm likely behind, but I don't want some cheesy one-card straight draw to beat me if I am ahead in this big pot, so I raise. MP and button fold, SB calls. River is a 2, SB bets again, and I make a crying call. What do you think, especially my turn play?
Pre flop and flop play is correct.
Flop: I didn't make a precise count but it seems that the inside straight draws would have the odds to call without your raise. Furthermore, in a low limit game someone could very well be in there with a J or T. I could see loose players calling all those raises with QJ, QT, JJ or TT in this situation and maybe even KJ or KT so raising is a good play. Furthermore if SB has two pair, the board pairing may give you a better hand (though you can't bet it for fear of a full house).
The question is what does SB have? Probably not QQ or he would have kept raising on the turn. The others had already called your raise, they would certainly call one more and he would want to charge as much as possible to the drawers. He might be a little less likely to re-raise with 88 or 55 but I would think he would since if he put you on QQ why would he keep betting into you? Most likely he has Q9 and shouldn't have been in there. 99 is also a possibility (but you probably would have seen a re-raise. KK is also possible, I'd put him on Q9 first, KK second and then a set.
You are most likely beat on the river but you have to call given the pot size.
Well, first of all, I think that if you are in the habit of raising with AJo in early position you have some leaks in your game that need to be fixed. Frankly I won't even CALL with AJ offsuit in early position PERIOD, but raise with it from the BB? No way.
The problem is that if you get pegged as a loose cannon, then you won't get the respect you probably want when you end up getting big hands like AA in early position. People won't fold and you'll get sucked out on. I suppose in the long run you'll make more money though, so who knows.
As for the play, I think yer beat on the turn. He keeps leading at you after you raise him. If there's anything you ever learn about low limit games it's this:
If an early position player (straightforward, not very imaginative) leads at you on the turn after you raise him, one of the following is true:
1) His hand just improved....OR
2) He has a big hand that he was afraid would get checked around if he bet. Then when you raised he decided to slow down to hit you for more money on the turn. Although I'm not sure why he wouldn't checkraise, but....
Whatever else, I think you can be sure that he has top pair ace kicker beat.
What happened?
-SmoothB-
SB had AQ off for an overplayed top pair. To clarify for SmoothB, the only reason I raised the turn was the possible one-card straight draw for any Jack or Ten. If the turn had been a blank like a 2 or 3 I would have just called.
3/6 holdem, 10 players.
Preflop:
mid position OK player(MP) calls, I call on button with QhTh, SB & BB call.
Flop: KhQs3h
SB checks, BB bets, MP raises. Assuming you know MP has at least top pair 90% of the time when he makes it two bets, what would you do here? I call since I'm on a draw and don't want to chase out customers behine me. SB mucks. BB calls.
Turn: 8c
BB checks. MP bets. I call. BB calls.
River: 8h
BB bets! MP calls(all in). What would you do at this point? Raise or call? Why?
Results later...
I would put the BB on a flush too. He could well have been betting his draw on the flop. I would not put him on a full house since he would have needed to have at least 2 pair on the turn and he did not lead on the turn. Or, he may have been a weak player.
If he had flopped a set I would think he'd play it a bit stronger - at least I would.
I think I would just call. If you ask me, in general, there is little point to raising on the river when you have a hand that is pretty far from the nuts. What does it accomplish? If you have him beat and he calls, good for you. If he's bluffing, he won't call and you make the same either way. If he has a better hand, you'll either lose 1 more BB or 2 of he repops you.
Fact is I'm not sure you have a 50% chance or better of having the best hand so what good will a raise do? Why would this player bet into that flush board unless he had a good hand?
Definitely call, definitely don't raise.
-SmoothB-
I'd just call...
(1) BB betting seems funny to me, I don't think that the eight on the river helped him, as he should have been betting or check-raising two pair on the turn. Maybe the fact that it is a heart helps though. Potentially he was betting the nut flush draw on the flop, realized he was up against something based on MP's raise and then calmed down until he hit on the river. So maybe he has the nut flush.
(2) MP is all in and never got to define his hand with a turn or river raise, you don't really know what he has. In addition, he can't pay off your raise, so it's value declines by a bit.
(3) The board is paired.
(4) If you're beat, you're probably going to get raised. If you are ahead, BB is probably going to fold to your raise.
I think that I call too much and raise too little in many similar situations, but it seems like a calling situtation to me.
What happened?
Marc
I called like a little girl. 1) Fearing BB was on a nut flush draw. 2) If I raise, I probably won't get action, instead, I'm giving too much action. I'd only get call by a hand I can't beat. He does not need to keep me "honest" at the end as MP is already all-in.
Showdown:
BB had Qx (two pairs)
MP had Kx (two pairs)
I took down the pot with my flush. If I have Ah nut flush, it's a different story as I'd have raised with confident because it's not likely that he made a full house at the end based his prior action.
I think calling was the correct move. Obviously these players are pretty weak though - what limit is this? Betting into that river with that crap, after all the action? Dumb.
-SmoothB-
When you consider the fact that a fella only makes about 1 full house every 25 hrs or so, the chances that this guy filled up weren't very good anyway.
Here is the thing about playing a "nut or near nut draw."
I believe in betting and raising for value and deception - if you start playing your BIG draws like you hit bottom 2 pair you will be making the lesser draws pay to follow you to the river and even if you miss and bet the river often they will just fold better hands behind you. I play my draws very aggressivally and if a lose a customer in the process so what I make up for it in pots I win when I was just check calling the to the river - aggressive play can also lead to free cards after the flop.
Get in the habit of check raising your nut draws and petting aggressivally - it pays.
I think my comments let you know what I suggest you do on the river in this hand.
I respect Rounder's aggressive strategy. If I was playing your hand, I would absolutely raise before the flop, attempting to isolate the MP with the best position throughout the hand. Depending on the type of players in the blinds, this succeeds at the higher limits more frequently than the low limits. Even if the blinds call your raise, a lot of times they will check to you on the flop, giving you a free card or in this case allowing you to bet the four flush. When your flush card doesn't come on the turn, you can now get that free card. When the board pairs on the end with your flush card, you can just turn your hand over or if you are experienced at reading players and feel the river card didn't fill them up, go ahead and bet.AGGRESSION AND POSITION ALLOW YOU TO TAKE CONTROL.
Noone here made a comment on the play on the flop.
Since you think you're beaten by MP player who most likely has a K, you are drawing to your flush here. 9 flush outs + 2 qween maybe. MP could have KQ. Plus you have to see that the MP has not much money left so this means fewer implied odds if you get there.
I think the call on the river was correct but I would have folded on the flop.
What do you boys and girls think??
theprince00
With the Q I maybe just call the flop if A high I am raising for sure and probably with the 2nd nut draw I am also raising why not represent a set or 2 pair here if you hit the flush you win more and if you miss weaker players may fold top pair if they don't have a really strong kicker.
Like I have been saying for a long time here "good things" happen when you bet and raise.
I would raise(on the river), for a number of reasons.
I play 1488, and whenever another player gets down to, say, 20 or 30 bucks, I keep my eyes open, because they'll probably try to pull some mickey-mouse crap. They usually wait for two decent cards and then bet the hell out of them. If they have any kind of raising hand pre-flop, they'll raise it in any position. SO...
What kind of a nut flush draw could MP have? Obviously AhKh,AhQh are out, so what's left? AhJh is the only candidate I can see, any other flush draw would check and callon the flop, but MP didn't raise before the flop. So the nut flush is out for MP
K8 and Q8 are also out. He could have them, but I don't think he would have played them, knowing that he would probably be forced to go all in with them (he's only got 3 big bets, right?).
BB can't have AhJh, he definitely would have raised pre-flop in late position with three callers already in. BB can't win.
BB could have K8 or Q8, but I don't think he would bet it into twoother players, especially when one of them is about to go all in. If he had a full house he would have checked it, because MP would bet it for him.
>I play 1488, and whenever another player gets down
>to, say, 20 or 30 bucks, I keep my eyes open,
>because they'll probably try to pull some mickey-
>mouse crap. They usually wait for two decent cards
>and then bet the hell out of them. If they have any
>kind of raising hand pre-flop, they'll raise it in
>any position. SO...
I love your the "mickey-mouse crap" metaphor. LOL. I completely agree with you that when they almost go broke, they are married to the pot and always play like they have AA preflop.
Always raise with the second nut flush here. The player with the only serious chance of having filled up can't hurt you and the blind can have any two hearts.
That's about the most succinct post I've read in a long time.
recently played home game hand, 6 players at table, betting structure: no limit, $80 buy in, BB-$2, small-1
I am in BB with k-5 offsuit, everyone folds except semi-tight player who calls, i check to him. Flop comes King, 8, 5, rainbow. I check my hand,hoping for a bet by him, thinking i have him beat by a long shot, he bets $20, i call the $20 and raise $20. he just calls. Turn is a 2, He bets $15 and goes all in, I call thinking that I am goin to take it down, when he turns over pocket 5's. Bad beat or bad play by me?? any commets apreciated....-Mike
Not a bad beat - If your 55 held up you would have been the bad beater as the 55 was a better hand going in.
YOu got sucked in a pot you normally wouldn't have gotten in to and just lost. It happens - hell I lose more money in pots like that than just about anything else. Getting a FREE flop is not always so free huh!
he bets 20 into a 6 dollar pot and you raise just 20 when he has only 35 left and he just calls and saves his last 15 for the next bet. the betting is wacky here. but the hands like you described happen all the time.
Not much you can do here. Not really a bad beat story either, just bad luck.
I just mentioned to someone yesterday "sets are sneaky". Your beat was typical. Sets are difficult to read. That is why it is so nice when you have the set. Remember, if you hold a set, you will either make a lot of money or lose a lot of money. In this case he made the money.
I'm playing in a fairly tight 5/10 Hold 'Em game at the Taj in AC last weekend (only 1 fish), and this one hand is stuck in my memory.
Pre-flop:
I'm UTG with ATd, and I'm thinking I should either raise or fold, so I raise. I knock out everyone but the small blind. She likes the action so I don't get too worried.
Flop:
A Q 3 rainbow. She comes out firing! I raise, but she comes back with a reraise. I don't even remember what I'm thinking, but I'm nervous.
Turn:
Turn comes a T, giving me two pair. She bets again, and I raise. She just calls now.
River:
The river is a 3, and she comes out betting. I cry call.
Any suggestions?
a normal pot played probably ok by both players with either one having the winning hand.
Ray, you'll pardon me, but I do not seem grasp the meaning of your reply!
Please come again.
Thanks!
Ivan
Well , in no-foldem (which is the norm where I play), AJ and AQ ain't dropping their rifles before the flop no matter what you heave at them and I can't even imagine getting everyone to fold (the ideal conclusion), so with ATsuited UTG I either fold (seldom) or call depending upon the likelihood of a raise and how many players typically see the flop. I would rather see the flop for the minimum but don't mind serving up another small bet if the usual contingent of 5 or 6 loose gooses is along for the ride.
As for the hand you posted, I've a sneaking suspicion she called your pre-flop raise with AQ or A3 suited. I would have just called on the river too.
I probably would only call before the flop with this hand. It is not very strong and you will be in bad position. However, you have to be happy that you got it heads up with the sb.
I am guessing the sb had A-Q, A-3 or possibly even Q-3s (I've seen much worse). You definitely have to call the river and see what happens.
What did sb have?
I raised because raises at that time was getting a lot of respect. The game wasy very tight.
i dont think that you would want to drive players out with a drawing hand like ATs. i would just call with the hand trying to trap someone would had smaller cards of my suit.
SB had Q3 offsuit!!@#!@ So she filled up on the river, but I had the winning hand going into it (helps me sleep at night)
I dont believe she called my raise with that. *sigh*
Roosh
I haven't read your results but I think you were against A3 maybe Q3 but not AQ which she most surely wold have raised pre flop. My guess is she filled up on you. Let's see.
Now I can't see you playing the hand much differently just a bit of bad luck. Maybe!
I don't consider myself a great poker player, but I've played good enough over the years in the low limits to know I'm better than average and make money at it.
However, my most glaring weakness occurs in loose games, when I get no cards. I feel my starting hand requirements are too tight.
For example, yesterday I played 5+ hours or so in a 1-4-8-8 game. I figured I was dealt 200 hands. My best hands: dealt only 5 pair (QQ, 99, 77, 55 twice), AK suited once, AK unsuited once, AQ unsuited once, A-10 unsuited twice, QJ unsuited once.
The game was loose, featuring 5-8 players seeing the flop, mostly without raises. Of course, I threw away the vast majority of my hands, the only one to do so.
Usually there was a showdown at the river; maybe every 3rd or 4th hand someone would fold to a river bet.
Questions...in a game like this, is it correct to play virtually any suited cards (as long as one is a face card)? Almost any suited cards period? Almost any connected cards, unsuited or not?
I did notice pre-flop raisers were getting respect in the sense that if the pre-flop raiser went all the way to the river, the chaser would fold about 1/2 the time to him on the river. So of course I tried this three times, running pure bluffs, but naturally all 3 times someone stayed with me and had me beat.
I know game theory must suggest it's correct to bluff occasionally, but not as much as in stronger games. Any and all help from more experienced players regarding starting hand requirements and how far to go with certain hands appreciated.
It's is not that unusual to go 5+ hours and get so few good hands, so don't be so impatient.
As far as staring hand requirements go it depends on the game situation. You say that your game was loose, however, was it loose/passive, meaning lots of callers but few raises or was it loose/aggressive meaning lots of callers and lots of raising, often being capped before the flop.
If the game is loose/passive then I think you can loosen up your starting hand requirements. You can play more suited cards (although, I would not say any suited cards as long as one is a face, this is still too loose) and more connecting cards. If the game is loose/aggressive then you have to play very tight and play only your best hands. When the betting is capped before the flop the odds for suited cards and connected cards go down so you must continue to play very tight.
For loose/passive games you can play a little looser, however, do not get carried away. I would loosen up a little but not that much. For example: you can play 6-7s from middle position or small pairs from middle position; 6-7o on the button.
in loose passive games with NO preflop raises get in there with suited connectors from mid to late position.stay away from low connectors suited or unsuited,I would say 89s would be my minimum requirements.( you want flush possibilities as well as straight possibilities).Be careful if your straight conectors fill to the faces, your likely dead unless you hold the only two cards that fill the sequence. loose agressive as clintaro says tighten up and wait.Play mostly high suited face connectors and wired 7~s and up from late positon .stay disciplined or kiss your ass good bye.always keep in mind the three ...P`s...patience, power, position,and study the players between hands.
Okay, thanks for the help. The game I was in was loose-passive. My starting hand requirements became, as the game went on, any pair from any position (although this only came up 5 times as I said), any two face cards, any face card suited. But I tend to not play middle connected cards, even if suited.
So I guess I just ran cold. In fact, I wound up losing $35 in this 5+ hour session. I know that this is trivial, but it's frustrating to just sit there while some dummy sees a double-raise (rare in this game, but it did happen)with a 7-9o and flops a straight.
It just seems like there ought to be SOMETHING I could do, but I'm beginning to think, maybe not.
Thanks.
Mark - my advice was for a loose passive game and don't over look the power of mid to lower connected cards in late position with or without one raise and 4+ callers. these hands usually lead to monster pots and play them selves whem you smash the flop.
Bluffing is a losing tactic in this kind of table I'd stay away from it unless you can spot a player who will fold a hand to a raise.
You can play your coupled cards a bit earlier than you might normally play them - mid position 9T is not out of the question in a scenario you painted here they are better than what these guys are probably playing and so long as you play marginally better cards yo ought to beat them over a given period of time.
Suited one gappers are OK too but I'd stay away from the paint small suited of course Axs works well in this kind of scenario and you might play it from any position.
Thanks.
6/12 holdem, kill pot so 12/24. mostly weakie players with one extremely solid player(ESP). i limp with QJs in mid position and ESP raises on button. we take flop heads up.
i am playing very agressively and have bluff raised the river on a busted draw against ESP earlier.(he caught me.)
flop: Q J 3
i bet out, he raises, i reraise(i think this is mandatory to elicit info from this particular player as to whether he has a set. i figure maybe up to an 80% reliable read on whether he has set or overpair.) , he calls. i put him on AA or KK as a working surity.
turn is blank, i check, he bets, i call.
river is blank, i check, he bets, i raise, he calls with AA.
i felt i could check raise the turn or river and decided on the river in case A or K came on the river and also to coordinate with my stlye of play that night .
brad
I think he fell in love with his aces and should have got out when you reraised on the flop.that says to me your likely holding trips or at least two pair and with turn and river to come i`m allowing you a chance to fill up. He`s got only two outs realistically, other then runners on turn and river other then Q or J.
jg
He has to stay with it on the turn. If he does put you on two pair he can counterfeit your two pair with the board pairing on the river giving him more than two outs. 2 aces plus 6 additional outs with pairing the rag on the flop and the rag turn card. 8 outs total. He doesn't necessarily put you on two pair or a set however, could be a semi bluff with a wrap to get a free card, in which case he still thinks he has the best hand. I could put you on AQ in this circumstance as well, alot of which dependes on how aggressive you are. In the case in point he is only a 5.5 to 1 underdog going to the river.
I hear your point greg but still to me its quite an uphill battle to chase two pair after the flop when he could fill on the turn or river...I just cant see myself chasing with second best after the flop...
jg
i am a very aggressive player (and he knows im a very aggressive player).
i check called the turn to make it look like a draw or just top pair that tried to blow him off the pot, and when i checked the river he probably thought he had the best hand until i raised, although he had to call since i raise bluffed the river against him earlier.
brad
Different syles, different methods. Notice that he had more outs than an Ace. He has 8 outs to your hand, and I want to get him out now. I check raise the turn. Notice too that you lose a bet if a King comes as you were just going to check and call.
WInger
right, but after he calls my reraise on the flop hes there to the river, unless the turn is a 10 and i check raise him with board Q J x T , then he might muck.
brad
If he's going to call you to the river then you definitely raise him on the turn. You've got the best of it, get the money in there. You still make your 3 bets.
If your worried about getting sucked out on your making a mistake. He has 8 cards to save him. If you know you have the best hand, you want to get as much in the pot as possible.
As an aside, what would you have done if the board had paired (not by the jack or queen)?
Winger
well, he would *call* me to the river, but i really think that after 3 betting the flop if i check raised the turn he would have to muck.(of course now that i think of it that is probably to my benefit.)
knowing this particular player i would put him an overpair, or AQ *minimum*. nothing else he could have, so i would have to muck if the board pairs, but of course if A or K comes i check call as he might have other overpair.
brad
3-6 holdem, 10 players.
Preflop:
All fold to me. I open raise with AcKc on the button. SB calls. BB folds.
Flop: Kh8c3c
(What a beautiful flop, I thought) SB checks. I bet. SB raises! I just call.
Turn: 4d
SB bets. I raise. SB calls.
River: 7d
(no flush) SB checks. I check.
Would you play this hand any differently? Comments on my flop, turn, and river play welcome.
Surprising result to follow...
James sorry but you didnt mention the style of player you faced in that sitaution which influences much of my thought pattern to respond. If you can describe type of player and we`ll go from there.
jg
Don't know much about the player since I was the new player at the table. That's why I did not mention it.
I don't have a problem with the way you played your hand. I think you played it fine. Waiting for the raise on the turn is a good play because you get an extra bet from the sb. Checking on the river is not bad either because your flush did not come and you might be up against two pair.
From the sounds of it you lost. I imagine the other player had K-8 and beat you with two pair. Them the breaks but I think you played the hand fine.
Player could have flopped a set, but then would have raised at every opportunity. So I will rule out a set. I think you played it ok. If the player has a two pair, his/her holding would not justify calling a pre-flop raise. I think the other player also has AK. (I would mention other K holdings, but I want to look good if I am right on the AK.)
Against an ordinary player I think you played it right until the river. I would have bet. He won't raise.
In low limit there's a certain type that likes to check and call with top pair unless they have AK or AQ. If this guy was one of them you could have known that 83 was more likely than KJ, in which case you should have just called with your draw all the way.
I would play it the same way, excpet on the river I bet.
Maybe I'm nervous if SB likes to check raise the river a lot, but after all this is heads up button vrs small blind. I expect SB to call me down with a weaker king, and I reckon thats far more likely than he is trying a check raise with two pair or set.
Bet the river.
Winger
SB turns over AA. I almost fall off my chair...
A very similar situation happened to me this Saturday at 3/6, only the person holding AA never raised me - not even preflop. He checked called all the way to the river.
When he turned over AA, I said "Nice hand", but all I could think about was all the money he had just given me.
I think this is part of the benefit of having a tight and aggressive image. I had been playing only very good cards at that table (it was a *very* loose table) and was turning over strong hands when called at the river. My opponent said he was afraid to raise or reraise me.
I certainly was not about to tell him different!
Guys just thought I`d bring this to our attention .When explaining the events of a hand try to give the style breakdown of the player or players your facing.this allows respondents to gain better insite into thier train of thought to respond.Needless to say there are numerous types of players out there and I respond differently basically for each type.
jg