![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
..the 'quiz' questions were based on hands he played in an actual NLHE tourney. As I have posted before, 'theoretical' books on NLHE in general and tourneys in particular, suck and suck badly, for the most part. The only way to learn is by playing yourself, and studying actual examples of NL play (from Brunson, Ciaffone, WSOP videos, etc.)
Even the detailed PL/NL hands from "King of a Small World" (best poker work of fiction ever, book or movie), are a bit sketchy in places. It's almost impossible IMO to construct a coherent "this is likely to be a situation you'll be faced with" example a student can learn from, in regards to a NLHE tourney, without it being primarily based on an actual hand.
Bill, Who is the author of King of a Small World?
"It's almost impossible IMO to construct a coherent "this is likely to be a situation you'll be faced with" example a student can learn from, in regards to a NLHE tourney, without it being primarily based on an actual hand. "
I don't believe this is true. I can say that if you play in a NL tourney you will be faced with the prospect of playing medium pairs in mid position.. Or A,K up front or A,A up fron or Big pairs in the blind etc. I don't need an actual hand to illustrate a situation one will face. I can say if the flop is xxx you may play the hand in such and such a manner. This is basically how TJ Cloutier wrote his book and I believe it is a good book for NL tournament play.
Vince.
Whoever said you can't deduct a tip to the tournament dealers?
In a previous thread, many people seem to be implying that this is the case. However, I am of the opinion that you can deduct these tips from your profits, just like you can deduct losses, as an itemizable deduction.
Just like losses, tips are a normal and expected consequence of playing poker tournaments. As such, they ought to be accorded the same status.
I certainly have no direct knowledge of this, but I always thought it was so. If you know I'm wrong, please provide whatever citations you have available to the regs or otherwise that indicate you can't deduct this expense.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I was imprecise. And I very well may be wrong here, because I don't know what the rule is.
If subjected to an audit, I would argue that a tip is a gambling loss, because it is a normal and expected cost of playing. Just like losing a hand. Hotel, food, and the like are not normal and expected costs, because there is no need for many gamblers to pay these expenses (typically because they live near the casino).
And while it may be that in the heat of an audit, I would just go along with the Auditor when he disallowed that deduction, the fact that he says you can't do it is only somewhat indicative of what the law really is. While they are apparently improving in this regard, the IRS has a long history of breaking the tax laws. They often tax things they shouldn't, disallow deductions that should be allowed, etc. They even frequently do this as a matter of official IRS policy. For example, the Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit might decide a lawsuit in favor of a taxpayer. Then, the IRS will issue a notice to their offices stating that the judgment will be complied with for taxpayers that are in the 5th Circuit, but that the IRS will continue it's old policy for taxpayers in other circuits. How's that for BS?
Maybe we should ask the folks who do those tax articles for CardPlayer? They probably know what the right answer is, as well as what the IRS is doing (if it's different).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger wrote:
>>The IRS isn't logical in any way when it comes to poker income though. <<
The IRS isn't logical about income period thus the incredibly screwed up tax system but I digress.
Has anyone looked into incorporating. Filing as a c or s type corp. I have consultants who have done this and get great tax advantages.
Just a thought from an old rusty accountant.
I've read this a couple of times and perhaps I'm missing something probably due to the fact that I'm not at the level where this is an issue for me. But if you can deduct a $500.00 loss but not a $500.00 tip as a loss why bother differentiating the two. You win a tournament, bet the dealer $500.00 the next top five cards are a royal flush in diamonds, when they're not pay him. It's a loss now!!
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Hi- Just back from SARGE and Jack Binion's Horseshoe in Tunica MS. My first event of this type and it was great. Wonderful people and the folks at Horseshoe did a great job making us all feel welcome and that our patronage was appreciated. Tournaments were professionally run and all had a great time.
If you don't mind listening to me blowing my own horn keep reading ...........if this bothers you, stop reading now.
I got incredibly lucky and won the Omaha/8 tournament (watch out Badger!) and finished 7th in SHO (Stud/HE/Omaha all high) and then ended up in second place for best all around player award. When we were heads up in Omaha/8 I offered to split it, but foolish fellow said no. At the time we were even, but he had a single chip more than me. His statement was "Let's Gamble". and so we did....I had come back from multiple all-ins to be even. My rush continued and he lost. I got great cards just when I needed them the most.
It was a great time. Better than the money I won, was what it meant to me personally. Best part of all was winning the tournament and getting my TOC qualification for 2000.
I had been worried that I would be sitting on the sidelines in July, now I can be a participant. Entry is higher this year, but still worth it to me to play with the best of the best. So look out poker world, the gushing and overly emotional amateur from GB will be there again!
Diane from Green Bay
Congrats Di,
Good luck at the TOC.
Diane,
Good going. It's good you didn't split the prize!
mah
Mark- You are correct! It is amazing how often the person who rejects the deal ends up on the worst end of it. I am always willing to deal if offer is halfway fair.
I must say that David was very nice about it. He was not sarcastic or obnoxious in any way. Matter of fact, after we played on and I was continually whittling away at his chips, he commented about how he made a mistake in not taking the deal. He was a gentleman about it to the end. I hope I was as gracious of a winner as he was as a loser.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
When the blinds get high and especially in Omaha 8B the hand values run very close. To me, it's a crapshoot. So, I think the offer of the deal to your opponent was a very good idea.
Alright Dianne!
Hip, hip Hooray! Congrats on your win! Hooray! Hooray!
Vince.
BTW - Be careful when you challenge Badger. He made it very clear in his CP article that he feels you female creatures are given a chaise lounge when playing with the Male of the species. He will be doubly alert against you, I'm sure. Oh, well, maybe that will work in your favor too. Then he can claim that men are either too soft or too hard with women poker players. Just what should we do? I know! Send all those females back to Venus from whence they came. Oh, My!
Vince- THanks for the congratulations and caution on Badger.
I would love to play Badger. WE met last summer at the TOC after exchanging several emails. We are both basically from the same town. He is originally from a small town 20 miles south of Green Bay, and I currently live 15 mles North of GB. Heck, almost neighbors with the family he left behind!
If he fears women (and I truly doubt that) then I guess I have an advantage. I will need every advantage I can think of to try and beat him. His record is outstanding.
Diane
"His record is outstanding. "
Sigh! Agreed! Don't you just hate that.
Again Congradulations.
Vince.
Yesterday, I played in the Poker Zone Tournament at the Mirage in Las Vegas. The game was No Limit Hold-Em $60 buy-in and $40. multi-rebuys. The total pool prize was over $7000. Well, I finished in 9th place and collected $155. Many world class players participated in it. I never tought possible that I could gain invaluable experience in playing in a low limit poker tournament. Well I can only attribute the success of these daily high quality level poker tournament to Donna Harris, Poker Manager and author of "The Professionnal Poker Dealer's Handbook". I tought it was a good idea to tell you all about it. So,on your next trip to Vegas if you want to practice your tournament skills well you know where to go.
3 times at in a NLH tournament someone raise 2 or 3 times the BB before the flop and I go all in with pocket 10's. I got called each and everytime against someone who has AQ. 3 times I lost. So, I asked a few World Tournament Champion what will they have done. Each and every one of them told me to muck my hand without knowing the end result and one of them did not let me finish my sentence and said muck it. I asked a top side game expert from Texas what he would have done and he replied: "If you beleive you have the best hand going in you've got to go all in. This situation happens to me 800 times a day." Quite a few tournament player told me if you beleive you have the best hand you've got to go. But the champions are unanimous, muck your hand. I wonder if this is the fine line between Tournament Champions and other players. What do you think?
You are a slight fav. TT against AQ - what the champs are saying is you can't get busted with a hand like TT.
Yhere are to many hands that dominate it. I treat JJ on down as pairs I want to see the flop with really cheaply and don't call big raises with them at full tables and usually muck in the face of big bets from good players.
Why go all-in preflop when you almost know for sure that getting called by a hand (like AQ) that has 2 overcards is just about the best you can hope for? Very seldom will someone call with a smaller pair here, so you will either be called when you're a small favorite (vs. the 2 overcards) or when you're a big dog (vs. the overpair).
If the raise in front of you isn't too much of your stack, just call preflop, and see if you flop a set. Or, at least you can see if any overcards come, and decide whether to bet out and get the overcards to fold now while you're still ahead.
Later, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
I'm in mid position, tournament is about 1 1/2 hours old I have T$1150. Passed to me I have AKo (best hand I have seen in an hour) bet 300 - 3 times the bb. Passed to bb who is a fair player who over plays small plair out of position and has about T$2000. He pushes all in.
What do you do - blinds just went up for next hand to 100/200.
I think you're pot-committed. 1450:850 is certainly an overlay in a situation you view as even money (A-K v. small pair). If this were the final WSOP event, I'd throw the hand away, but here I think you must call.
Rounder,
If you are prepared to take (roughly) a 50:50 shot for these pot odds (and I would), then what you need to consider is how likely is it that he has AA or KK, the two hands that kill you. The more he overplays small pairs, the less likely it is he has AA or KK. If you think he would call and trap with AA, that makes it less likely as well.
Maybe another factor is the strength of the rest of the table. Do you think you can get a better shot later considering you only have 3 rounds of blinds left - and after one round, you can only double up to around 1400 rather than the 2300 on offer here.
As ever, I'd have to be there to be sure, but given that "he over plays small pairs out of position" I'd lean towards calling.
Andy.
Same for me 2 days ago. Someone comes in with 9 times the BB and I have 4.5 times the BB. He had A-J. I called all in with AKo. He made 3 jacks. After the fact I knew I came in with the best hand. Does it matter? I beleive calling all in with AK is wrong. And we all know bringning it all in is a much more powerfull play. In your position you added an interesting tell that may favor a player to call all in with A-K. I still beleive A-K is not a pair and choosing between Life and Death I would choose to live and come back stronger later on. I don't like walking back to Houston!
I knew he didn't have a big pair and I was right I pushed in - god I hate going broke with AK but I did.
He had 7's I had black AKo flop was all clubs but that was that. I said "nice hand" and walked out to valet parking.
I thought maybe I should have pushed in pre flop but that would reek of "I don't want a call here" I had previously made 3xbb bets with big hands so I wanted them to put me on a big hand this guy just wasn't good eneough to put down the 7's. Good player on my left said he mucked 9's so my raise was effective (mostly).
I just didn't know a better way to play to play this hand I was a dog here and anyone who reads my posts knows that is not my ideal situation or one I am in very often. An old but true saying to win a tournament you have to beat AK and win with it. I lost with it but won't next time. I hope.
I take it you're still far from reaching the money, right? That being the case, you're trying to win (and to avoid losing) chips.
You say he overplays small pairs. OK, that definitely means he doesn't need to have AA or KK here. How about non-pairs? How often do you think you'll be looking at AQ or worse in his hand here?
Against most players, I think that the chances of running into AA or KK (a hand that dominates me) is roughly equivalent to the chances of running into AQ or worse (a hand I dominate). As such, I think these will roughly even out. Thus, overall, he is way ahead a small percentage of the time, you're way ahead a small percentage of the time, and you're about even (he has AK or a pair 22-QQ) most of the time. Since the pot already contains so much money, I think that the call becomes the right play.
After his raise, the pot contains T1500, and it will cost you T850 to call. You have to feel that he has AA or KK a pretty large percentage of the time for you to fold correctly. The concept of folding here just to survive (because you don't know that he doesn't have AA) is wrong, IMO. You should do your best at putting him on a range of hands and make the best decision accordingly. If you're wrong this time and he has AA, you might be right next time and he has AQ.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This guy would push in on me with just about any pair and probably AQ AJ maybe AT. I was slight dog and his 7's held up.
Greg,
While I agree with your analysis, it's worth pointing out that while AK v AQ is a 5/2 favourite, and KK v AK is also 5/2 favourite, AA v AK is a massive 13/1, you will be walking back to whence you came if he has Aces.
So I wouldn't say it quite evens out but I think the pot odds are enough anyway, plus Aces may be a hand he would call with to trap.
Andy.
Andy,
The pot odds really didn't enter into it for me here if I win I douple up and if I lost I'm a walkin'. I figured I'd be about even odds to double up which I really had to do at this point in this tournament. It is a real grinder doubling blinds every 15 min and adding antis at the 500/1000 phase.
Rounder,
You need to double up. Go for it. It is mathematically unlikely that he has AA or KK, because the deck has only 3 Aces and 3 Kings. When you move in before the flop you have approximately a 48.7% chance to catch one of your cards which will beat just about anything he holds.
When I was in Vegas on my last trip I played a tournament at the Stratosphere. I had AK on the button. The blinds I think were 5 and 15. UTG raised to 50 the next guy called a guy before me made it 100 and I moved-in. Once of the blinds called, UTG called, another called, and the guy that raised is to 100 folded (the guy that folded was Guz "Miami" Beaz, I had played in other tournaments with him before). Well, I snagged an Ace on the turn and took down three players. One of the guys that called me had JT suited and paired a J. I thought he was gonna cry just from the look in his face. But, really he was the lucky one because I busted out in 12th without any dough.
Should tipping in poker tournaments be bore out by the winners or should they be evenly distributed to all participants? Is it the responsibility of the players to assure that dealers earn a livable wage or is it the responsibility of their respective employers? This controversy seems to have started when the IRS got involved and decided to tax tournament winnings. I agree with Badger that stiffs are repugnant. I do not trust casinos that will not even pay their employees a livable wage to be a trustee for 3% of our total prize pool.
Chico - I'd like to see all the tournament players put up a few bucks each for the dealers. I hate that envelope sitting there and the tournament director reminding me dealers work for their tokes and that is all they get. I say add the "juice" and pay them I am not their employeer and can't deduct the money I toke.
Hey, I work hard in tournaments really hard and when I win I'd like to keep it all.
I tip 10% of my winnings, regardless of what place I come in. I figure that amount is about the same as what the dealers would get when I tip in a ring game. I wish I knew beforehand what kind of compensation the dealers were getting for tourney dealing as opposed to ring game dealing so I could make a more accurate assessment. What annoys me is that some people don't realise that they should tip, often those who don't win a big amount.
10% is way to much you think you are buying dinner.
2-3% is my top end.
I agree. 2 to 3% from mid to major tournament. In a small tournament if I win below a thousand I will give about 5%.
What is even better is for the casino owner to give that 2 to 3% to the dealer because winning player will give back a lot more to the casino games, such as: blackjack, craps, sports, and let's not forget the slots. Now that's what I called good business investment by the casino. Give a little and get the money back in the games 100 times more.
The second best thing that could happen for tipping the tournament dealer is to take 2 to 3 % from the total tournament revenue for the player to keep his declared winnings only.
I take my win and go home. I know players who do OK in tournaments and take it directly to a ring game and lose it right back. As for the pit games I may take a few bucks and put it on 36. But that is it.
I am not out there to gamble.
23 is clearly the number to play. It has mystic powers.
Andy :-)
Andy,
Are you Crazy, 23! Have you not seen "Casablanca"? "22 seems like a lucky number tonite, put your money on 22" (paraphased. Oh that wonderful "Bogie".
Yes, 22, is THE number of with mystical power.
Vince.
What's going on, no reruns in the UK?
Vince,
That's as may be, but didn't James Garner in "Support Your Local Sheriff" put it all on 23 and lose, then he did it again in the sequel and won ? Now there's classic cinema.
In any case, I speak from personal experience. Last summer on a junket with work they set up this casino, gave everyone some chips and whoever made the most in an hour won a bottle of champagne. I placed my wedge on 23 (mystical powers), pocketed my inevitable winnings and used the remaining 59 mins 45 seconds for some _serious_ drinking. Naturally I won. Little did I know I was following Sklansky's casino tournament theory (Gambling for a Living ?) to a T, but I was. So there you go.
I apologise to anyone who has who has lost real money at roulette - hang on, the hell I do, it's your own fault. I do apologise to everyone who's time I have wasted with this sub-thread, but hey, it's Friday afternoon.
Andy.
Both of you clearly lost it as '21' is the number. I even celebrate it once a year.
Oh. I guess I'll cut my tips to 5%. For now, I'm playing in small tourneys with a $45 buy in and around 30 entrants. I'm have no idea how much the dealers are being paid by the house so I can't make a good judgement on how much I should tip. However, I'll follow your and Yvan's recommendation and cut down on the % tip. Thanks.
I won 3 $1500 1st prizes this year and left 40 twice and 50 once - actually I slipped one good dealer an extra 20 (so one was 60) cuz he did a good job at the final table and I wanted him to have it with out splitting it.
Looks like my 3% is what I do. Some of the players don't toke at all.
I think tips should be taken out of the pool. Say 2% and be done with that. I hate being hustled for tips later on. Just take it out or you might get stiffed when you hustle.
P.S hate being hustled for tips.
I have had decent results in nlholdem tournaments at local club average approx.5tables 20-30 min. rounds they are starting satellites for june tournament ,twice a week one table no rebuys fri. multi tables with rebuys satellites $30 buyin entry in tournament $275 .What adjustments should I make for the satellites .
In a single table satellite (or any other format with a single winner) survival no longer matters.
I'm sure that sounds odd, because how can you win if you don't survive?
What I mean is, the concept of passing up a slightly positive opportunity so as to not risk going broke should not be a consideration any more. To win anything at all, you must win it all, and that means you need to win every single chip. You can't survive while others knock each other out and win second place money. You've got to get in there whenever you have the best of it and try to win those chips.
In a multi-table satellite, it depends. Some of these are single winner events, in which case my advice applies. Some of these super-satellites award the top prize to the last few people. Be sure you know what can be won for each position, and play accordingly. If it's one winner, do whatever you can to win all the chips, even if it risks elimination. If there are multiple winners, then survival, just for the sake of survival, comes back into play (once you get close to the money positions).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Haven't read Greg's post yet - I am sure his advice is good - I think he likes tournaments almost as much as I do.
Here is my best advice on the single table freeze out.
10 players - you will have some time to measure the opposition as the blinds start off small and if there is a lot of action. Sit back and only play premium hands let these guys take each other out I usually don't get serious until we are down to 3 or 4 palyers if I am hitting big hands I'll do some of the work myself. If this table is leting you see flops cheap go ahead and play some high potential hands - but don't get in to drawing contests if you don't hit the flop with a sledge hammer get out. I have seen players dump all their chips in with a 4 flush and one card to come.
Ouch!
This is my favorate format of all the formarts available. I wish I could spend my life playing them.
In the super satellites multi table with rebuys. This takes a bit of player sense - you have to ID the players who don't care how many rebuys they have to buy they are gonna go all in until they start to hit. Try to isolate these guys and hammer them with their weak holdings otherwise play solid tight aggressive and you will be OK so long as the cards run your way once and a while.
I wish you snccess.
I just wish that when they play that 4 flush they wouldn't make it so I could win for once.
No adjustments necessary for you, HY. Just continue to play your odd assortment of trash and if the deck hits you over the head, you'll be fine.
Final table 7 left. I was under the gun in pervious hand when the 2 to my right get knocked off. Guess what now I have to post a big and small blind. No dead button - I get hit with 1 1/2 blinds and guy on my left has a big.
Another good reason for a players association and standardized rules through out the tournament world.
Someone forgot to take their Prozac. No way you should have to post both in the same hand -- that's a ridiculous handicap in a tourney, particularly with blinds as high as they are near the end. Now we should ask Mr. Sklansky if there are any hands that should be folded to a raise in this situation pre-flop, if any.
This sounds crazy.
So how much was it to call the blind? (was the small blind dead money?)
m.a.
At the time it was 1200 for both blinds pluss there was a 2nd bb. I had T41200 on the button.
in a way it may be best as no one can steal the blinds so anyone that raises needs a hand and you are in position to steal the blind from the guy on your left for half a bet.
Good positive attitude as usual Ray, but I still think it is unfair.
Rounder - If I understand you correctly, the player who would have had the button got knocked out on the previous hand.
The ruling would have been different in the places I play.
IMHO the button should not have moved in this situation. The player one position to your right should post the small blind and you should post the big blind.
The dealers who get stuck dealing tournaments generally earn less in tokes than when they deal in ring games.
I appreciate the tournament dealers and tournament managers where I play and I toke them well after the tournament, assuming I place somewhere in the money. You can't beat good help, but you have to pay for it.
I believe that in your case you simply got an incorrect ruling by an obtuse dealer or tournament manager.
May you get a better ruling next time.
Buzz
No, the ruling is their house rull no dead button 2 players were knocked out during their blinds so button went directly to me and since I didn't pay any blinds I had 1.5 blinds on the button. Most casinos would do a dead button but not Harras in Maricopa.
I have played in many clubs, some using the dead button method, some using the always advancing button method.
If your club was using the latter, they should have had you post a BB on the button, and the 2 guys to your left would also post a BB (3 BBs total). Next hand, the button moves, and the 3rd guy to your left posts a BB, and the 3 of you who posted BBs last time would each put up a SB now (1 BB and 3 SBs total).
But wait, what if there are only 4 players left total? That would mean that YOU ARE the 3rd guy to your left. So, does that mean you still should post both blinds? I have no idea.
It is these almost-impossible-to-handle situations that is the strongest argument for the dead button rule. While I agree that both rules have problems (specifically, I have seen guys get the dead button 3 or 4 hands in a row as the blinds continued to get eliminated at the final table or 2 of a tournament), I prefer to avoid these completely intractable situations caused by the always advancing button rule.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Harras Sunday morning $15 buy in one 10 rebuy Limit HE tourney - My 21 year old daughter is visiting me from ISU where she is a Jr. She has good card sense but this will be her 1st venture in casino poker.
Spent the morning in "training" - let you know how we end up. She'll probably get further than I do.
tounaments are lots of fun.
scott
My advice to her would be to make a last longer bet with her "old man". ;<)
John I am glad we left before she had a chance to see your post. 60 started and at the break she had T$3000 and I was at T900 - we both ended at the 2nd last table and I was on her left. We were both bb I was all in and she bet to the river and lost too. So technically I was 16th and she was 15th.
She played prety well for her 1st tournament and we both had a good time - Mike
Rounder,
Good going to your Daughter! Boo Hoo to you!
Vince
This is a situation that keeps plaguing me - an all in player towards the end of the tournament.
At the Reno Pot-of-Gold there are 14 players left in the Thursday no-limit tournament - paying 9. A player was just eliminated so Peter E. and I have two big blinds of T400. The under the gun player goes all-in for the full T400. Everyone else folds and I find QQ. I am about to raise but decide to just call and keep Peter in to try to eliminate the UTG. Flop comes A K T. I check, Peter checks. Turn is a 9. I check and Peter bets T600. Oh shit! I figure I'm drawing for a Jack but I also think Peter will also check on the end so I call. The river is another Ace so the board reads A A K T 9 - no suit. I check and Peter bets T1200! Well I figure he has at least a minimum of a King, so after some thought, I fold. What do you think Peter E. has. He's an experienced tournament player and part time dealer.
It could be a lot of hands. If he didn't elimiate the the all-in player, then he's an idiot for pushing you out of the pot. He must realize that the goal is to eliminate players, so I don't think he would bet unless he had the nuts.
QT, JT, Q9 or J9 is my best shot. Possibly an under pair.
You said he is a dealer so this could mean he could have just about anything.
Max,
The only time I would go out of my way to eliminate an opponent is if one place higher really makes a difference, e.g. there a five players left and 5th->4th is a significant jump in prize-money. Until then, look out for number one. QQ is not a hand that wants many opponents as you know. I try not to get involved in these pots as the all-in stack has an advantage which you need a decent hand to overcome. If everyone folds to you and there's no-one behind you, that's a lot different, but I don't like to get involved in a multi-way pot with one or more all-in unless I've got a strong hand. You don't have to be the sheriff, let them knock each other out. In this particular case, raise to protect your hand and ignore any comments you get from other short stacks.
Andy.
If he is a GOOD and experienced player, he will have at least top 2 pair to bet that turn, and should have trips or a straight.
There is no side pot here, so no advantage is gained by bluffing (since he cannot bluff out the all-in, and if Peter can't beat QQ here, why would he think he can beat the all-in, who went all-in voluntarily?). Thus, he should not be betting to get you out, but to get paid off by you. As such, you should not have called the turn bet with 2 overcards on the board, as you must be paying him off, not calling with the best hand.
If he was betting a pair of Ts or 9s, then you need to downgrade your opinion of him significantly, and he's a total fish. The only hope he has of winning the main pot with a hand like one pair of tens is if the all-in player is holding a pocket underpair. That is just about it.
Hope he had AK and you saved some money.
If there had been a side pot of any significance, then his turn bet need not be a strong hand to be a good bet. He can be trying to win that side pot, and not be too concerned with the all-in player, since you are still a couple of orbits away from the money. Winning those chips is still more important than eliminating a player, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I was at the Taj a couple years ago. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. An unknown player and Peter Vilandos called.
The flop came k-8-x, with two clubs. Peter bet and the other guy shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives, and won only hos own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This alo baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Never played with Peter, though I am familiar with his name. Maybe he screwed up, and would admit the same today. Maybe he had a good reason that is beyond me, though I doubt it.
Did Peter and the other guy have a lot of chips left? It may be that Peter was betting on the come in order to build a sidepot, and was hoping that by building more of a pot now, he could get the guy to call him for all his chips later (after Peter made his flush draw). That's the best reason I can think of right now, but if true, I still think he screwed up.
It could be that he was losing concentration late in the tournament from being tired, and just made an autopilot kind of semibluff bet, one he would normally make if the all-in player wasn't present.
The interesting thing would be to describe the situation to him without using names, and ask him his opinion of the guy who bet out. He will probably tell you it was a mistake.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I was at the Taj a couple years ago. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. An unknown player and Peter Vilandos called.
The flop came K-T-x, with two clubs. Peter bet and the other guy shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was another Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives; and he won only his own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This play also baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Greg-
I was playing the $500 NLH event at the Taj in 1998. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. Peter Vilandos called in the SB and a player unknown to me called in the BB.
The flop came K-T-x, with two clubs. Peter made a pot-sized bet and the other guy made a face, shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was another Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives and tens; and he won only his own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This play also baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Sorry, about the delay. I got busy and forgot about the thread.
The other blind that chased me out showed 8 5! The all-in player lived!
I couldn't believe it. I was momentarily furious with him. But soon realized that I should have raised. My belief in knocking out a player cost me and 18 chip swing!
The only thing that made Peter's play other than idiotic was that I played worse and he won 6 chips.
Tuna was at the table and said he didn't understand it but I don't think he was paying full attention and didn't realize how bad Peter's play was.
I recovered and did make the final table but was knocked out by Tex Morgan's K Q against my A 8 in the big blind.
Thanks everyone,
"Wenatchee" Max Faulkner
Another poster to this forum and I were discussing this situation earlier today and I thought I'd get some feed back from other players.
NL Holdem Tournament Blinds are 100-200 Both of us had stacks of about 2500
Passed around to a player on the button who opens for 400. I'm in the BB with JT suited. Both of us agreed that I should play the hand but he argued that a reraise is the appropriate strategy, i elected to call. I'm interested to see what others think and why.
Fold. Immediately. Do not pass Go, do not pay $400 ... What are you hoping to flop headsup? You are out of position for this type of hand and will pay dearly to attempt to complete it. Further, you are paying about 25% of your stack on a speculative hand. However, if you think Willy Lump-Lump is out of line and raising with 4-5s on the button, you would be better served moving all-in. A call is dead-wrong, an all-in move is much better, and a fold is best.
I disagree. I think a reraise to 1200 is the best play because it gives you so many chances to win. Remember, the button is very likely on a steal, and with a reraise you will fold many better hands like Ax suited. Additionally, the reraise sets up a bluff on the flop. If you were playing a 3 handed game and got a raise on the button to your bb you would fold JTs? What kind of hand are you going to wait for to defend that blind with? You are correct that firing back at the raiser is better than just calling but I don't think going all in is necessary. In no limit, the threat of future bets (the remaining 1300) is just as powerful as an all in bet and it allows you to fold to a rereraise (like if he had a ligitimate raise).
I think, Earl is right. You donīt have enough chips to make this play. If you raise up to 1200 you are in too deep. It would be something different, if your stack was 10000.
When you raise up to 1200, you hope that he folds. If he calls, you definetly are in trouble preflop. What do you do, when the flop comes, and you donīt have much of anything? What, if the flop comes something like AT4? You are commited to the pot, so you probably have to bet all in, no matter what flop comes. This is sort of gambling, IMO.
In Austria we say to this kind of play: "You risk a postoffice to win a stamp." :-)
Regards
m.a.
"If you were playing a 3 handed game and got a raise on the button to your bb you would fold JTs?". Yes. Even Kx is a better hand in this spot. And if you're thinking of raising with half your stack and then folding to a re-raise, that's even worse. Choices : 1) Fold. 2) Raise all-in. Choices end. If you start mucking about with half your stack you will fool yourself much more often than a good opponent.
Andy.
So what you are saying is that if we are playing together I can raise your blind with impunity because I know that you'll fold even a decent hand. If I get a reraise from you I'll fold but most of the time I'll win the blinds. Since I'm only risking 2x big blind I only have to win the blinds 4/7 of the time to show a profit. Since this is a tourney and you can't tell what my button raising standards are I will raise every hand, even 72o. You may be right about reraising all in (I'm not convinced though) as opposed to 3x the original raise but I think that fold is second best. At least we can agree that calling is the worst option.
Yes and no (as usual). Firstly, if you start doing it every time then obviously I will lower my standards accordingly. And secondly, if I think you are half-way loose I could easily play back with any Ace, any King, Q9 or better and any pair, which comes to more than 3/7 of hands I think. But you make a fair point.
Andy.
Depends on the riaser. Is he the kind of player who is on a steal all the time or just with decent hands JT is no great shakes - I just call here if a player who is not trying to steal most of the time and raise if he is maybe you win it right there and stop this guy from hitting you in the blinds..
There is only one reason to reraise here, and that is if you are highly confident that he will fold. I do agree with other posters that if you do reraise, it should be all-in, since a pot-sized reraise will take about half of your chips anyway. However, if this guy could be raising with an A or K, and will call your raise preflop, but would fold to your bet on the flop if he doesn't flop a pair, then you can consider raising to T1200, saving T1300 to bet the flop with, thereby beating a better hand.
I would generally call and see the flop here, because you can flop a lot with a hand like JTs. Most especially, if you flop a straight, you will often find out that the opponent has simultaneously flopped top pair, 2 pair, or a set. As such, you can get him to put in all his chips as a serious underdog when you get this lucky.
There is one big reason why I might fold preflop. Would this player normally raise more, and does his small raise point to a high likelihood of a big pocket pair? If he would only make a small raise with a monster hand, then I would be concerned that I would have to flop 2 pair or better (and not just a draw) to play on. In that case, the times that you flop a made hand of 2 pair or better are not often enough to justifity putting in even T200 more.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I called for similar reasons to what fossilman gave. I think JTs is too good a hand to fold for a possible steal raise but not good enough to risk my enitre stack (any sensible raise he commits me to the post, whether it be 1300 or all in) If this was a larger tournamnent then a fold might be the correct play but in small NL tourneys you'll get killed if you constantly wait for only premium hands. This hand works well with many flops and even if the flop doesn;t hit hard it could easily set up a semibluff situation.
You are out of position to play this hand correctly with a call. Fold, unless you really think this player is out of line then call, and bet the pot on the flop no matter what comes (note that you should have a good line on your opponents play before you do this).
In planning for the upcoming WSOP, I'm reviewing some of the things I faced last year. Here's a situation where I believe I made the correct play, but I'm interested in other opinions.
Late-night NL super-satellite, down to 10 players, 5 at each table. 8 places will be paid. Blinds are 1000-2000 (everyone is playing with $500 chips). I'm short-stacked in the small blind with 6 remaining chips after posting $1000. I'm dealt 4-4, and it gets passed around to me. The BB has 12 chips remaining. What is your play with the 4-4 and why?
As so often, I would say: It depends. The most important question is: Is there a reasonable chance, that 2 players will get knocked out of the tourney in the next round. (Maybe there are other players, who can just post one blind). If this is the case, fold and hope that they get knocked out. Itīs a satellite, and you donīt play for first place, you play for 8th!
Second: Is the player in the BB a player, who frequently calls raises with marginal hands? Or is he a player, who tries to knock out as many players as possible? If this is the case, you should fold even if you are the shortest stack in the field and hope for a hand where you can raise the blinds. (In this case i would raise every A if nobody is already in). But is the player in the BB a player who just wants to survive and wonīt call you unless he has a premium hand, then you should raise.
Anyway, if he calls, you wonīt be much of a favorite.
What did you do and what happened?
Regards
m.a.
I played in supersatellites last year and know how hard it is to get thet far. You could put in 2 chips and hope bb lets you take the flop, I don't like this option at all. You could fold and hope for 2 knockouts which may happen at any time or you can push them all in and eigther get a fold - which I doubt - or show down as the most likley fav.
I push in try to end up with 16 chips and cripple the bb.
This is where you stand up and look at everyone else's stack at both tables (preferably, you do this everytime the dealer is shuffling, so it's not so obvious that you have a borderline hand when you stand up and look around at the decision point).
If there are 2 players who will be forced all-in by the blinds within the next 3 hands, then fold and hope to crawl into 8th place. If not, then you will be the one forced all-in 3 hands from now (when it's your BB again). If there are not 2 other stacks with only 6 chips or less, then you probably should go for it here where you are likely to be the favorite.
Another consideration, is there 1 person who has 6 or fewer chips and will forced to go all-in before you? If so, and if he gets eliminated, you will break a table and redraw for seats at the final table, right? This may give you up to 7 hands for free (or none). However, if there are a few guys with 10-12 chips, who might blind off some, and then be forced to take the blinds again before you do at the final table, then folding here and waiting for the 1 player to bust might be a good choice.
Of course, if lots of players are still doing lots of gambling, then folding is again a good choice, because some player with lots of chips might do something stupid and eliminate himself prematurely.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If everyone is playing with $500 and the blinds are $1000 to $2000 you should fold. Because if these players have any brains, the small stacks should eliminate each other because they have to play before it gets back to you.
I believe the down-side is too great to raise with pocket fours unless the BB is a particularly tight player. I would fold 2's through 5's in this situation. I think calling is the worst of your three options.
I raised all-in. The BB, a guy wearing an engraved bracelet whom I didn't recognize then nor have seen since, called with Q-J offsuit. A jack came on the turn and I got no help.
With the blinds coming again in 4 hands, it's unlikely I would receive a better hand. Nonetheless, as Chico noted, these small pairs are so treacherous because you are at best a very small favorite. Quite often, your opponent may not hit his hand, but 2 bigger pair comes on the board. Still, heads-up, 4-4 is marginally better than A-K and there comes a point where you have to commit with something.
Several posters noted that my decision must depend on the read of the player. Unfortunately, we had just redrawn for seats and I didn't have much of a read on the player. As for the stack situation, I'd already examined the stack sizes at both tables, and no one was in immediate danger. The points that Greg made about people "becoming empty seats" before the blinds get back to you are probably the MOST relevant aspects of deciding when and which hands to play.
Frankly, even in retrospect, I don't see that the BB's call was any better than a middle-limit player would make, defending his blind because of a couple of face cards. As Rounder pointed out, if he loses, HE is crippled. Usually, the best players in these supers play precisely tight near the end of these things, just trying to survive. There are exceptions (read some of Mike Paulle's posts). Sometimes you can get a seat with just one chip left. But my on-the-spot analysis did not show that I could just coast through to a seat.
I was somewhat surprised that I got called by such a middling hand, but alas, it was me that was all-in and facing elimination. Being the shortest stack out of 10, my strategy in that situation is always to pick a hand and commit. I've been in this "close" scenario several times at the WSOP: In 1998, I had enough chips to coast into a seat when we were down to 10 players, but in another event the night before, I went out in 16th when Susie Isaac's Q-10 offsuit beat my Q-6 suited (now *that* was a bad play, but that's another discussion).
Thanks for the responses.
2 over cards to any pair is the same odds for success what difference does 44 have against AK or 95 - none really except for a few straight possibilities.
ANY pair is the same here to me. They have to improve, I don't. Gimme the under pair in this situation any time and I'll take it and run.
Final table at a small NL tourney. Six players left with place money down to sixth. 6th place pays 105 and 5th pays 200 or so. I am in the sb with Q9o and 2200. Blinds are 1500-3000. Second player in fires all in for 7000. All fold to me I call, bb calls (bb has 12000). Raiser has AA and wins. My question is, should I fold this hand in the hopes that the bb will call, possibly knocking out the raiser and moving me up to 5th? Or should I call because this is likely to be the best hand I'll get in the next 5 hands? I think fold is the right move but I'm not sure.
Unless your stake is something like 100k, you should fold. Always remember one thing: You donīt have to knock out any player but one (heads up) to win a tourney. Let the others to this job, unless you really have a hand or itīs really just a minimum amount to call (e.g. raise is up to 4k, and you are in the BB for 3k and have a stack of 12k)
Regards
m.a.
It's probably not the best hand you'll get in 5 tries but the way you should be thinking is, it's definitely not the best situation. When someone raises like that in front of you then they have a hand of some value (normally) and it is impossible for you to win the pot without a showdown. You need to scale up your requirements because of these points.
With only 2200 left, of course, it's impossible for you to win any subsequent hand without a showdown either. Prior to paying the blinds you have 6700 - a lot of good players would make their move before the blinds here because a) they might take the blinds down without a fight, b) even if you drop to 2200 and win you're still short-stacked.
Provided you get your money in first you can take a few liberties - if someone has raised before you, you need a _much_ bigger hand. This also applies in part to your JTs post below.
Andy.
I think your fold was good here. Q9 is not that powerful hand to be calling raises with it is a mistake and you can most likely get somthing better to play before your next blind.
First, you have T2200 left if you fold your small blind, or you started the hand with T2200, and T1500 of it is in the small blind (leaving you with just T700 if you fold)?
What do the other positions (i.e., 1-4) pay?
How many chips total are in play, and how are they spread among the 3 players you didn't mention?
How much are the other players gambling? Are they still getting into it, and risking their chips against each other? Or, is it a constant series of one player (usually a chip leader) raises, everyone else folds?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think Fossilman is asking the right question and others have misinterpreted. Robin has 2200, including the sb (1500) so if he folds he only has 700 left.
I will have t700 left if I fold the hand. Total chips in play is about t55k. When I first got to the final table I had t22k but due to many poor hands (read 94o, etc.) and a 7k bad beat with 99 vs A4s I quickly dwindled to my present status. The positions pay something like 1000, 600, 400, 300, 200, 100. Most of the at the final table seemed fairly normal, with one player raising and everyone folding. The chip leader(s) weren't doing the majority of the raising, and the chip positions shifted around quite a bit.
OK, I think I can analyze your situation now.
If you fold, the BB is probably going to call, because he is getting 3:1 on the call. On average, since the other guy was raising when he didn't have to, I would guess that the BB is a 2:1 dog. So, if you fold, you're either going to be eliminated soon in 6th place, or the raiser here will go out now, and you'll get 5th place. Since the raiser will lose something like 1/3 of the time, you move up to 5th place and 200 about 1/3 of the time. So, this fold probably gives you an EV of about $133 or so.
If you call and lose, you come in 6th place for $100. If you call and win, you stay alive and have about T6600. Also, if you win, and BB comes in second, then raiser is eliminated, and you immediately move up to at least 5th place.
You win, but raiser is not eliminated. Still 6 players, and you have T6600 out of T55,000. At this point, I will say that you have chances of finishing in each spot of about 12%/14/16/17/21/20. Multiply these percentages by each prize, and you get an EV of $381 for this scenario.
You win, raiser is eliminated. 5 players, and you have T6600 out of T55,000. Estimated chances of 12/15/18/24/31, do the math, and the EV is $416 for this scenario.
If you call here, I think you lose 70% of the time. Of the 30% you win, I think the raiser survives 20% and is eliminated 10%. So, 70% of 100 + 20% of 381 + 10% of 416 is about $188.
As you can see, even with a 70% chance of elimination when you call, your EV goes up by more than $50, or more than 30%, by calling.
Of course, I've made hundreds of simplifications to do this estimate. What if the BB doesn't call (whether or not you also call)? What if your win rate is worst than 70%? Better? What is the raiser might be out of line, and will be eliminated 60% of the time he is called by the BB?
So, there is no clearcut right or wrong answer. However, once you are in desperate shape, but a win can give you a reasonable shot at moving up to a win of the entire tournament (and a win here gives you 12% of the chips), then it is often worth going for the win. I mean, 12% of the chips, with a prize of $1000 for first, is worth $120 even if no other places are paid. So, by folding here all you really do is increase your shot at moving up from $100 to $200, but you give up your realistic shot at the $1,000.
Where you need to be much more inclined to fold is when a call and a loss eliminates you, but a fold still leaves you with a viable number of chips. If you would have had T4,000 left with a fold here, then I'm pretty sure a fold would be correct (although I haven't checked the math).
The reason I do these types of analyses is NOT because I am capable of doing this at the table, when the clock is on me, but because it gives me a better feel at the table, so my guess is more likely to be correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks. That was very helpful analysis.
Nl holdem tourney 2 players left. I have 24' he has 70' first hand: I'm the BB, blinds is 2',4'. Sb raise 4' He has been raising frequently before this heads up and I figure he's trying to steel the blinds. I've been playing very tight. I look down at A,x. I reraise 16' all in. he calls and shows J,J. tourney ends. I've very little heads up experience. Did I make a suckers play? comments please.
If he's been aggressive, there's no reason to think that has changed now that he's headsup with a lead, so you can't back down here. Ax headsup is a great hand. The only clue I see in your post is the small amount of the raise. If someone does this, it is usually for one of 3 reasons:
1. They are new to NL HE, and under the pressure of the moment have made a limit-sized raise.
2. They have found that a small raise is just as likely to make you fold as a big raise, so they are always raising small.
3. They have a monster hand, and don't mind a call.
Obviously, there might be a milllion different reasons behind their play, but these are the ones I've seen the most. If you can rule out 1 and 2, then #3 screams to fold, or to call now, but don't bet or call postflop unless you flop really big (2 pair or better).
Most likely, you just got unlucky in that a guy who might have raised with anything happened to have one of the few hands that put you in serious trouble.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thank you for your thoughts. Heads up play is hard for me. I think that itīs the most complex part of the game. Maybe itīs because I donīt understand it. Do you think that Image is more important in heads up than in other parts of the game?
I was wondering how much more difficult it is to win a tournament where there are rebuys possible, yet you never choose to rebuy. I want to continue playing poker but I feel safer not risking too much money, and tournament play seems a good way to do this...especially if I dont rebuy. Is it ok to enter a tournament where almost everyone in the tournament is rebuying and you are not.......Any strategy changes I should make?!
In the vast majority of tourneys that I have entered or heard about, if a rebuy was available, it was usually correct to take it. Many tourneys feature rebuys that are cheaper (or you get more chips) than the original buyin. In these spots, you have to take the rebuy to be playing optimally. In other tourneys the rebuy is the same price as the original buyin. However, if you can rebuy at a point in time where you have fewer chips than the average player, then again the rebuy is a good deal (although it's only marginally so).
If you're unwilling to take a rebuy, the better strategy is to forego the tournament entirely, unless it is of the latter variety (i.e., the rebuy is the same price). If the rebuy is cheaper or you get more chips, and you won't take it, you're giving up too much equity to the rest of the field.
If you don't like rebuys, stick to tourneys that offer none.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The entry is 40 dollars and the rebuy is 30 dollars...and you get exactly the same amount of chips. Is this a huge enough difference to make it wrong to play in the tournament altogether? I figure that perhaps with early conservative play, some of the players who are willing to rebuy over and over will play very loosely and perhaps I can get a good amount of chips very early? Also I have never played in a no limit tournament before....so Id rather invest the minimum amount learning how it goes, and there are no tournaments of the "no-rebuy" nature in my area
Let's say you get T600 in chips for your buyin. You paid $40 originally, or T15 per $1. A rebuy at $30 gets you T20 per $1, or a 33% premium. This is what you will be giving up to the rest of the field if you are unwilling to rebuy.
Here's another way to think about it. Let's say you buyin, and there are an average of 3 rebuys per player, with 100 players in the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament, your chips were worth $40 (since no one had rebought yet, that was the average price paid). By the end of the rebuy period, if your stack were to happen to be the same, it would only be worth about $32.50. Thus, you have paid $7.50 to the field.
If this is acceptable to you, then go ahead and play and get some experience. Gambling at a disadvantage isn't so terrible if you have a clear vision of what you're doing. If your goal is to minimize losses and you don't mind paying $7.50 for that goal, then go ahead.
However, since this is NL, I see a potential problem. If you go bust real early in the tourney, it is going to be hugely disappointing. I live 6 miles from Foxwoods, so it's a quick drive, but I would hate to go there, park, get inside, signup, and then be leaving for home again 5-20 minutes later.
Also, the willingness to rebuy allows you to play some hands where you feel you have the edge, but are not invulnerable. If you're in constant fear of going broke, it is quite likely that you will be playing a less than optimal game, because of this fear.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just a little clarification--
It sounds to me like you get the same amount of chips for the rebuy as for the original buyin.
I'm guessing that of the original $40 buyin, $30 goes to the prize pool, and $10 is juice. Thus, the rebuy chips are worth the same as the buyin chips.
I agree with your analysis though, Greg (as usual).
Max
My daughter and I played in the Casino Arizona $30 buy in no rebuy tourney today. I would have lost another LL bet if she bet her old man. I was 16th and she made the final table in her 2nd try. I put it down to genes and advanced condenced training - she disagrees. What ever she is $350 richer with her 7th place finish.
DID I CREAT A MONSTER OR WHAT!
You should be paying your daughters entry fees and taking a cut.
it is painfully obvious to me you are a much better teacher than player. i advise you to put all of your money into your offspring's hands and retire to the farm. i suggest chickens and goats.
Some animals for the farm would be nice also.
In many parts of Montana, marriage between a man and his sheep isn't legal. Visitation at the vet's, however, is almost always allowed unless the sheep objects. I'm not sure what the legal status of chickens might be. Here in California, we only use chickens when we're too poor to own sheep or when it is shearing time and the sheep are, understandably, skittish...................................
Do you guys know why Scottsmen wear kilts.
Cuz the zippers scare the sheep.
:)
"when it is shearing time "
Hey padraig, it's good to know you shear those things. I hate getting those little "wooly balls" in my navel.
Vince.
Actually I played pretty well considering I had a couple of really dead seats making the final *2* tables in both tournaments is close (but no cigar) like one winning pot away in both.
I am a real proud papa - of course had she busted out 1st in both I'd be just as proud.
When deals are made at the tournament table for large buy-ins does the Casino accomodate the deal or are you responsible for the taxes even though you did not get the amount the Casino awarded?
For example, first place pays $40,000 and second $20,000. First and second make a deal for $30,000 each. Does the Casino accomodate the deal?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
It depends upon the casino. Since Badger says usually, then it probably is true in most casinos where major tourneys are held (LV and Cal). However, here in Connecticut, Foxwoods does not recognize deals whatsoever. Fortunately, they are no longer reporting wins to the IRS at all, nor withholding taxes (unless you win more than 300:1 on your buyin). So, you can just report the real figure to the IRS on your own.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You say they don't recognize deals. Who wins when their steadfastness abuts the tax laws which specify that the paperwork be accurate?
JG
I guess they win.
At Foxwoods, you must either play it out to the end, or the players must at least designate which of them is the winner, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Then, FW will pay you the official amount according to that order of finish, and it's up to you as the players to spread out the money according to the deal you made.
Thus, FW can say it did the paperwork accurately, but that the players did something else after-the-fact.
However, since nothing is getting reported to the IRS anymore, the only thing you have to worry about is the IRS auditor asking you why you reported a win of 12K, when the report in CardPlayer says you won 16K?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It sounds like Foxwoods sucks. They need an attitude change. When I played a small Omaha 8B in Vegas at the Orleans I was impressed at how they handled the split. We decided to do a five way split and they did the calculations and divided the money up. Well, since foxwoods is in the middle of nowhere, I will not be going there for anything.
Hi everyone,
In the pot-limit Hold-Em Tournaments I play in the buy-in stage can be very loose. 20 rebuys or more on an 8-player table is quite common. I'm doing OK during this stage, I normally have more chips than I paid for, but I think I'm playing too tight and could be doing better. The question is, what hands should I be playing back with against a loose raiser (and frequently loose callers) ?
Let's get specific. Consider 4 hands : 77, KQ off, AT off, JT suited. And two scenarios : firstly, a loose raiser pops it in second position, you're in fourth position. Secondly, you call in middle position, there's another call, loose raiser pops it on the button and a blind calls the raise. In each case, the raise is 100, you have 1000, and the raiser has at least 1000 as well. And let's say that a "loose" raiser is raising 1.5-2 times per round.
Which hand(s) do you prefer to call (or re-raise) with in each scenario and why ? I appreciate that "it depends" as usual, but any insight into your thinking would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andy.
Firstly, I wouldn't reraise with any of these hands, because you're not likely to be much of a favorite, if any, over range of hands even a loose raiser could be holding.
Unless, if you reraise now, and the loose raiser will either fold now pretty much, and/or fold when you bet the flop (and he misses). If he will back down to a reraise frequently, then you can reraise with pretty much anything, knowing that you will win much more often than you lose (since most hands miss most flops).
My preferred play, against a loose raiser who isn't going to back down easily, would be to call with the 77 and JTs for sure, and with the KQ and AT if it appears that the hand is going to be heads-up between you and the loose raiser. These hands are strong enough to play for 10% of your stack preflop, if you will get paid off well when you hit. The KQ and AT are decent against a loose raiser alone, but I don't like them against 2 or mroe opponents. (if there are others in there, it is too likely that when you flop top pair someone else has a better kicker or 2 pair).
However, there really isn't that much need to play looser preflop, just because someone else is playing looser. Stick to hands that are either strong favorites preflop (AK and big pairs), or hands that are good enough if you can get in cheap enough (small pairs, suited aces, maybe suited connectors).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
From this weekend Limit holdem tournament $115 buyin, 68 players Down to six players Remaining prize pool roughly 2800,1400,1100,700,360,300 1000-2000 limit 500-1000 blinds
Stacks after blinding UTG ~8000 2 2500 3 1200 4 ~9000 LB(me) 2600 BB ~9000
Before the hand, I was thinking that I could fold around twice and have a good chance of taking fourth (where the prize money starts ramping up).
In the hand, it was folded around to me and I had A5o. I threw in a raise and ended up going allin and losing.
At the time I was very content with my play, but in retrospect I was wondering if I should have even considered folding and hoping to back into fourth.
-Mark
giving up first to hope for 4th is never a good play. if you folded you still wouldnt be a favorite to get 4th as both the others would have to lose on the next round. you could have just called the bb and played on from there or do as you did and gamble. if he was a caller id just call and if he folded alot id surely raise.
If you fold here, you will be holding ~7% of the chips, and I estimate your chances of finishing in each remaining spot as about 7/10/14/33/32/4. Multiplying these percentages by each prize gives an EV of about $850.
If you go all-in here, get called, and win, you will be holding ~20% of the chips, and your chances of each spot are about 20/22/35/17/5/1. The math here gives an EV of about $1400.
However, with A5 against a random big blind hand, you are a 57.7 to 42.3 favorite. So, 57.7% of the time, you have an EV of $1400, and 42.3% of the time, you get an immediate $300. Putting these 2 together, your EV for playing the hand is about $935, or $85 more than folding.
BTW, if you don't like my estimates for each finishing position, it is pretty simple to put in your own numbers and do the math. However, even if you modify those numbers quite a bit, you will find that folding has lower EV than playing.
The real answer is how to play the hand? I would pick whichever play has the best chance of making the opponent fold. Some players will be more likely to fold preflop, although I think not many experienced players will fold here since you cannot put in a full raise. Most players will be more likely to fold if you just call preflop, then bet the flop no matter what, and hope they missed terribly. If you're lucky they flopped nothing, not even an overcard, and you can get them to fold.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg as I am amused by your analysis it is irrelevent as hell. When he is out hei EV is *O* if he doubles through twice he is chip leader. This trying to bring everything down to a math problem is silly.
We're talking about this hand, this game, these players.
I respect your tournament prowess but I can't see trying to put these situations in an equasion.
Rounder wrote: >I respect your tournament prowess but I can't see >trying to put these situations in an equasion.
You obviously are a successful player, yet I think that this is your biggest weakness. The math is key. To everything.
Unfortunately for me and some players (who can do the math easily), the math is all based upon a series of estimates (most importantly, what hand does he have). If your estimates are good, then the math will always tell you the right play. If the estimates are bad, then the math won't be of any help.
Now, some great players cannot do the math. In fact, they make significant math errors in their decisions and thinking. However, these great players do a great job of estimating. By that, I mean that they do a better job of putting a guy on a hand, of knowing when they can make him fold, of knowing how much of a bet he will call, etc.
I am working on the latter skill. I intend to become great at making the best estimates. It would appear that you are very good at making the estimates. If you learn to apply the math well, you might be the next great player.
BTW, ask Ray Zee if he thinks that the analysis I presented is irrelevant. I suspect you'll believe him more than you'll believe me, and I suspect he'll tell you that I'm dead on.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In explaining your post to my daughter I got to thinking that I go through the same probability process but just don't do it in the equation format you use.
I sort of go through it but put a lot more emphasis on playing the man his style and chip position and my chip position in relation to the rest.
Complicated isn't it.
The things you mention, stack size, etc., are all things that go into arriving at the best estimates of what cards the guy is holding, how likely is he to call a raise, etc. Now, once you do that, even I don't do the math thing at the table in full detail as presented in these posts. But, from having done a lot of these math things in full detail, I'm good at guesstimating the math answer, based upon my estimates of the other factors.
The real handy part about doing the math, is that you often find for certain situations that for ANY reasonable estimate of what the guy has, a certain play on your part is correct.
For example, let's say there are 10 guys left in the tournament, 5 being paid. NL HE, you have 4x the big blind in chips, and are short-stacked to the field. Folded to you on the button, and you have K7s. It's a pretty marginal hand, but you should probably always raise with it, all-in. If the blinds, especially the big blind, will defend with anything, the high card power of your K means you likely have the best hand. If they are selective about what they defend with, then the fact that you will be behind when called is overcome by the fact that you will successfully steal the blinds more often. In fact, if you can assume that the small blind will fold anything but a monster hand, you will find that it is a profitable raise by you no matter how tight or loose the big blind plays. The looser he is, the more often you will be ahead when he calls. The tighter he is, the more often you will win the blinds without a showdown.
Just doing the math will show you a lot of other examples of situations where the estimate doesn't matter much. Or, it will show you what the best play is when the estimate does matter, and then all you need to do in the future is figure out the opponent, not the math.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi Greg, and apologies to all who find maths boring :-)
I've been interested in your estimated percentages of finishing in each place. In my tournament software, when you get down to four players you can get the computer to calculate your equity. Here is how it does it.
Say A has 40% of the chips, B has 30%, C has 25% and D has 5%. The probability of the players finishing in order ABCD is calculated as 0.4 x (0.3 / 0.6) x (0.25 / 0.3). That is, A has a 0.4 chance of winning, if he wins then B has 30 / (100 - 40) chance of being second, if B comes second then C has 25 / (100 - 40 - 30) chance of being third. A's overall chance of coming second is the sum of the probabilities of all the combinations in which A finishes second, that is BACD + BADC + DABC ... Then you multiply the probability of finishing second by the second prize amount, and repeat for third and fourth. There are some short cuts you can take but that is essentially it.
Questions : Do you think this is a valid way of estimating (provided the blinds aren't massive anyway) ; if not, how might you amend it ; it would be very easy for me to extract this code and produce a stand-alone program which allows you to type in chip counts and prize money and then works it out - would you or anyone else be interested if I were to release this, almost certainly as freeware ?
Thanks for your time,
Andy.
PS You could almost certainly do it in a spreadsheet but a little visual app to do this would be cool.
Andy,
If you write it, you can be sure I will download it.
Now, if I ever get around to buying a Palm Pilot or the like, I can have the program with me at the table, and get some instantaneous figures, which would be pretty cool.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Let's play the hand again. What do I do? A,5o is not a hand I want to see the flop with. But it has agood chance of being the best hand. What to do? What to do? well I said I didn't want to see the flop with this hand. (Hey what about all that math old Fossilman did, cool). Now what kind of raise do I need to keep the BB from calling. Let's see. Blind 500-1000. Me 2600, BB 9000. If I raises all in he only needs to call 1600. Hmmm. He will call with almost any mediocre hand. How do I know? Because I would and I'm probably not as good as him. So any lesser raise he will call also. So a raise, any raise will probably have the same result. He will fold real poor hands and call or reraise with a mediocre or better hand.
Well, I'm not going to answer this one for you. Fossilman gave you some great math advice. So if you are so inclined I would take his advice and play the hand. Of course Fossilman's EV calculation doesn't take into account how your opponents play. So you may want to enter their playing styles into the equation. The bottom line is preparation. Whatever you decide is the best play in this situation should be in line with your ultimate goals. By keeping focused on a goal you will make your decisions based on the best way to obtain that goal. Be prepared is the answer I would give to myself. For what it's worth.
Vince.
both of you misread the post. greg he has enough for full bets. his figure was for after posting the blinds
vince the game is limit poker
Thanks for the heads-up Ray. I missed the "after blinding" line.
I still think you have to play this hand. It is much too likely to be the best hand for you to give it up preflop here.
The best way to play the hand is whatever way you think is most likely to cause the big blind to fold. If you think that a raise preflop (followed by a bet on the flop, if necessary) is the best way, do that. If you think you can limp, then bet the flop, and get him to fold that way, do it that way.
I do not think folding is the highest EV play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I did believe that the game was NL. Dunce cap two this week for me. Ray, I still like my answer to the post. I don't want' to play this hand against a big stack if I can help it. My play, if I play, is too raise but I have no leverage with a raise against a big stack that's in the BB. I'm in a commit mode with the amount of chips I have. I think that I am better off waiting for a better situation. Of course waiting has it's own problems. And applying pressure no matter how little has it's merits. I really don't like a call but I suppose it's not out of the question. But if the BB is worth his salt he will apply max pressure anyway and raise with any mediocre hand. Then another dilemma. I made my answer based on the tone of the question. The question seemed to imply to me that the questioner was not focused on winning the tournament but on finishing as high as possible. I consider that a mistake but what do I know?
Vince.
Vince,
I like your answer. If the next notch up the ladder pays more, you estimate that you're going to go out soon anyway, why not just blind it out and hope someone gets knocked out while you're waiting?
Didn't peek.
Wish ou would have described the table a little differently tough to figure out but I'll try.
You'r in the SB with it folded around to you and BB is chip leader. A5 you are probably in the lead but a weak holding. If the BB is the sort to defend the blind maybe I just call with $500 it leaves you with $2100 and about the same shot I don't like this option as it is weak and bb if any kind of player will hit you with a raise which you can't call.
You have the button coming and 2 players with less chips under pressure to act.
A tough call but if I let the strategic side of my brain win this arguement I fold and look for a better hand. If the BB player is the right one I do what you did and push in.
Forget about all the math for a second. The big blind will call you with almost anything. You most of the time will miss the flop. If the big blind is a good player if you bet he will raise and you will be forced to throw your hand away and you have lost half your chips. Muck it.
Bruce S.
What do you think of the following play for the late stage of an NLH tournament where there is alot of blind-stealing by the larger staks, but everyone is calling the shorter stacks when they move.
You have 200 invested in the BB and only 1200 left. The blinds are doubling soon. A loose, middle position raiser (medium stack) brings it in for 600 (about 1/4 to 1/6 of his stack) and it is folded to you. You have some middling hand like 86s or J9o.
Rather than making the standard fold and hoping to futility steal the blinds or pick up a hand on the next round before the blinds go up, is there a play to make here. This player: a) could have anything, but is probably weak (no pair or good ace) b) will call with anything if you reraise before the flop.
I think that just calling the raise and moving in quickly no matter what flops could be effective against an aggressive player who thinks you are solid.
I tried this play last week, but was foiled because the guy was so aggressive, HE moved in out-of-turn on the ragged flop.
It's certainly a play to consider, you just have to know your opponents. If I'm the raiser, I won't automatically throw away something like AsJs, just because the flop of Qh9s4d missed me. It will depend upon who you are!
Against the right players, it can be the preferred move at any time during the tourney, not just the late stages.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think a fold is the best play. First of all with 200 blinds 600 is not a steal bet from mid position. If you just call there is now 1300 in the pot. If you move in there is now 1900 in the pot. If he has a medium stack there are not many hands he will throw away for a 600 call. If you have an 8,6 or even a J,9 the opponent doesn't need much to have a better hand. I much prefer to be the initiator. With 1100 left you still may be able to pick up some blinds from late position.
Vince.
In NL beware of "I want a call" sized bets.
Don't call here with rags in the chip position you described. If you only have to post 100 in the sb and in NL a 1100 stack can multiply into chip leader in a few hands. Keep your powder dry here for a real good hand or situation.
In a recent satelite which paid 2 places with 3 of us left,I found myself against 2 others who were obviosly good friends.I was in the SB (200)with about 1500 left the BB (400) had about the same ammount,the third player raised all in for 500.I automatically called ,however the BB with 1400 in the pot and a chance to knock out a player threw away his hand instead of calling for one more chip!At the time I said nothing and eventually had to make a deal with these characters,when I talked to the floorman afterwards I was told the player had no obligation to call and so misdeed was done.I felt cheated.To me,it was obvios collusion,which certainly is against the rules, but I'm left wondering what can be done .Any comments?
Aha! There is a key difference between this post and the one you posted previously in the other forum.
Here, you note that 2 places are paid. You didn't mention that in the first post. It is a HUGE difference.
If it's a typical winner-take-all satellite, you don't care about busting players out, you need to win every chip to win anything, so you would have been thrilled that this guy didn't call with 14:1 pot odds preflop.
Now that we know there are 2 prizes, I need to know if they are identical prizes? If they are identical, then clearly you want the guy to call and help you knock out the third player. The fact that he folded is suggestive of collusion, as any good player would call with anything here (I would call blind, and not look until and unless you bet). I don't like the apparent attitude of the floorman. He should have said that there's nothing he can do about it, but he also should have said that he will keep his eye on these guys. He also should have seriously considered having a talk with them, and warning them that if they happen to get caught doing something wrong, they will be excluded from the club.
If the prizes were of noticeably different size, then you don't mind the big blind folding so much, because it significantly increases your chances of winning the chips, and thus of winning the larger first prize. The few single table satellites I have played that offer a second prize usually have a relatively small second prize, often no more than the buyin being returned. In such a spot, these guys picked a poor time to collude, since they might be costing themselves money, as a team (I'm not sure, it would depend upon the chip counts and the relative size of the 2 prizes).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those who read this bb regurally you know my daughter was recently out to Arizona to visit her old man from ISU in Terra Haute, Ind. She is a smart kid and has good card sense - plays gin and spades in school - but never played poker in a casino nothing more than a few kitchen table games and really didn't know flush beat a straight.
I had 3 hours with her Sunday morning and here is the advice I gave her. Have 4 goals in mind. Make the break with more chips than you started with, make the last 2 tables with more chips than you had at the break, make the final table and win.
I told her to stick with big cards 7 pairs (no set no bet unless you have a over pair). Don't play suited cards unless one is a picture card. If you don't hit a flop hard get out of the hand.
Don't do broke.
Don't slow the game down and pay attention to the betting and call in turn. Don't smart off (like her Dad) and be polite all the time.
She did great 15th out of 60 and a final table out of 100 and a $350 profit.
Did I miss anything in the advice considering we are dealing with a complete novice here.
Rounder,
Good advice for a beginner as ever. One thing, in my experience new players are often scared to raise and it would be good to define the raising hands. Choose your own standards, but I'd say (for a beginner) make the first raise with AA-JJ and AK, make the second raise with AA, KK and the third with Aces only. And beginners should _never_ slowplay because if you are genuinely nervous and look it, you will almost always get called.
Andy.
I was going thru my diary the other day when I came across this hand. This was at the WSOP a few years back in the first limit hold-em event. The buy in was $1500 and there were about 500 players. We were down to about 8 tables. I had just survived in the big blind with pocket 7's against 2 overs. I had T1800 and was in late position with 3 limpers. Do you play A4s in this situation? Do you risk going broke with a drawing hand? Unless I catch a miracle flop this is largely a drawing hand. On the other hand if I win the hand I'll probably triple or quadruple my chips and be in a much better position to potentially win or finish in the money.
Bruce S.
What were the betting limits at that point? I would guess that they were at least 400-800? Probably more like 600-1200? If so, it will cost you a significant fraction of your stack (25-50%) just to call the preflop bet. Even though you're getting 4:1 or better on that money, I don't think that A4s will win often enough to justify that.
If everyone had deep money (you included), then you could limp here, because you are getting immediate odds of 4:1 or better, PLUS implied odds if you flop a big hand. However, here you're putting up so much money up front, that by the time you flop a draw, pay a bet or 2 to get there, you won't have anything left with which to exact those implied odds bets from your opponents.
It was a correct fold. You are preferably looking for an opportunity to get heads-up preflop against an inferior hand, or, if you're going to risk a multiway pot, you need a monster hand like QQ or better.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
We were playing 400-800.
This Greg guy is pretty good. I don't think I want him at my table.
No. Fold. While there are all-in or near-all-in strategies for compounding your money, this is not one of them. Specifically, you asked the question whether you risk going broke with a drawing hand. My experience says "no." You are better off waiting for a hand that you can play aggressively with a raise and either get headsup or take down the blinds without a fight. If you are so short-stacked that you can only call the blinds, you are better off waiting for a "20" or "21" hand to commit.
Hey,
As most of you regulars know I am a HE only player. Haven't played stud for over 2 years and never ever sat at a Omaha table I am thinking of playing in a OHL tourmanent today. Any tips. I am not a LO player eigther. I suppose a hand like KK A2 is a good starting hand.
Only reason I am considering it is for a point thing in this pennant race Casino Arizona has instituted.
I am in the running for 1st place it is a contest to accumulate tournament points over 3 months and I have only played in about 1/4 of the HE tournaments and none of the stud or omaha.
Any help would be appreciated. BTW all my books are HE only. Gosh I am specialist.
Well, if it's worth it for you to invest in the entry fees for the O8 tourneys, then it's probably worth investing in Ray Zee's book. I HIGHLY recommend it.
Here's some simplistic advice until the mailman gets your book to you.
Omaha is a game of the nuts or draws to the nuts. If many people are in there still when the flop comes down, you need one of the above. So, if the flop is 4h7hKc, you need trip Ks, Ahxh, and/or A2 (preferably A23) to continue. If you call a bet or raise with a hand like 237K, you will lose a lot more than you will win, in the long run. Your K7 2 pair will almost always lose for hi unless you fill it up, as someone will make the straight, flush, trips, have trips already, or even just make a better 2 pair. Your 23 low draw can only win half the pot at best, and will often lose to A2 or A3.
The only time you get away from this playing for the nuts is when only 2 or 3 people are in to see the flop. In this situation, it is obviously a lot less likely that someone will have the nut flush draw when you have the K flush draw. It is also less likely that someone has trips when you flop 2 pair, etc. However, when it comes to the low draws, it is still pretty likely that someone has A2 in their hand, since these 2 cards make up a large portion of all the playable hands in O8.
Mike, since you hate drawing, you are going to hate this game. It is ALL about draws. Frequently you will find yourself in a spot where you have nothing, yet you should be betting or raising, because your draws are so strong that you are still the favorite to have the best hand by the river. For example, let's say we're headsup, me with KsKdQsJd, and you with Ac2c3h6h. Flop is 4c5cKh. Although I don't know the exact figure, I am quite sure that you have MUCH the best of it here, with a pot equity of probably 70-80%. Even if we get rid of the flush draws, you still probably have an edge of 60-70%.
Have fun!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'll let you guys know how this newbie gets along.
I'll also articulate my AA position a bit better when I get back.
Here's a tip:
In a tournament you want to play hands that will either win the whole pot or 3/4 of the pot.
Ray Zee's book is good and if you are a fan of T.J. Cloutier his book has good advice. I recommend both.
Rounder - There are three main places hold 'em players go wrong in Omaha-8.
The first major source of error is in starting hand selection. Often a good hold 'em player will build up a chip lead only to dribble it away playing mediocre hands.
Try this starting hand selection drill. Deal out thirteen four card Omaha hands from a regular 52 card deck. Look at each hand and decide if you would want to play it or not. If you're deciding to play more than three or four hands of the thirteen hands, that's probably too many. If so, try arranging the thirteen hands in order from best to worst.
Remember that you need to use exactly two cards from you hand and exactly three cards from the board. Since you have four cards in your individual hand, there are six possible two card combinations. Practice looking at each of the six 2-card combinations.
Since you need to use exactly two cards from your hand, if you are dealt three of a kind, one of those three cards is completely wasted. In effect you only can have three different meaningful two-card combinations (instead of six). Fold if you are dealt three of a kind.
Straights are great in hold 'em, but not usually very good in Omaha, unless flushes and full houses are not possible. (There have to be at least three cards of the flush suit on the board for a flush to be possible. There has to be a pair on the board for a full house to be possible.) Full houses win for high roughly one fourth of the time, flushes win for high roughly one fourth of the time, and straights win for high roughly one fourth of the time in a full (nine player) game.
A hand like KQJ4 is not a playable hand (unless you're in the big blind) because the four does not fit with the other three cards. Avoid such three legged hands.
Avoid low pairs. If you hit a boat with them, it will usually be a loser to a better boat.
In high-low games the object is to scoop, to win the whole pot (rather than half of it). Avoid playing for only one half the pot.
It's all right to play four high cards even though the game is a high-low split game because sometimes low is not possible. In these cases the high hand scoops.
It's also all right to play four low cards, because sometimes a low straight (like a wheel) will win for both high and low.
Greg gave you excellent, well written advice. Follow it to the letter. Get Ray Zee's book and follow it to the letter.
The second place where hold 'em players go wrong in Omaha is in deciding whether to play after the flop.
Here's another drill for you. Forget about the first drill when you do this one. Deal out eight hands and leave them all face down. There will be twenty cards left in the pack, enough to deal out four common hands. Then flop three cards from the pack (forget about burning) and look at each hand in turn, leaving it face up if you think it is playable with that flop, and turning it face down if you think it is not playable. Then deal out a fourth and fifth card from the pack for the common hand (board). After dealing each card, look at each hand which is still face up and decide if you still want to leave it face up or fold it (turn it face down). After the first deal, deal another flop from the pack to be used by the same eight individual hands. You will be able to deal four 5-card common hands (boards) in this manner.
You will see that for any particular flop some hands fit and others don't. You will learn what hands you should fold after the flop. You will see that one of the hands probably is the nuts for each of the four different 5-cards hands, that the hand with the nuts will probably be different for each 5-card common hand, and that some hands are better than others. Finally, you will learn to always select exactly two of your cards to use with exactly three cards from the board to make your poker hand.
(The third place hold 'em players go wrong is not full realizing that exactly tow cards from their individual hand must be played with exactly three cards from the board.)
By the time you read this post, you probably will already have played your tournament. I hope you did well today, but, if not, there is always next time.
Good luck!
Buzz
Good advice as was all of the advice here.
I learned real quickly about the nut nut facet of Omaha. I was playing A2 to raises and big pairs with A small to a raise.
I felt comfortable after a few hands and made it to the last 4 tables - I did play a few silly hands - but I just ran out of cards - I think I like Omaha and will play a few more tournaments. I don't think I'll ever get serious about it like I am about HE.
Thanks,
I just remembered something very important that is more relevant to tournaments than it is to ring game play.
In Omaha8, more so than any other game I'm aware of, all hands are much closer to equal in value preflop.
This is very important when you're down to 1-3 bets. Let's say you are waiting for a decent hand, and will put up half your stack in the big blind in a few more hands. In this spot, I think the most important thing for you to do is to make sure you play the hand heads-up. This is because, no matter what the other guy has, you are probably at worst a 6:4 dog. The only exceptions are when you have trips or quads in your hand.
So, if you fold all your hands until the blind, and put up half your chips in the blind. When someone raises, even if they're totally solid and you know they have the goods, you should call. This is because they are no where near a 3.5:1 favorite, and you're getting at least that much on the call heads-up. A better play might be to raise when UTG unless your hand is totally hopeless, so as to better ensure that everyone folds to the big blind, and you can play heads-up. If someone else does come in, they probably have a very good hand, but if the big blind does then fold, you are still not very far behind. If it gets around to the big blind, you might just be a small favorite.
The real reason to avoid playing crap hands (when you have plenty of chips) is not because your hand is so much worse in a Monte Carlo type setting, but because strong hands can outplay you easily. Also, the weakness of many hands does become VERY apparent when played multiway. For example, holding garbage like AT96, you might be only a 55:45 dog against A234 and KKQJ individually, but if you go up against both of them at simultaneously, your pot equity will probably be well below 33% (these numbers are all guesses, so if I'm way wrong, please let me know).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I just got a copy of poker probe, so I will test your thesis, which seems consistent with my "gut" feel.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Here are the data that support both Badger's point about multiway pots and Greg's point about wanting to get heads up. I will use Greg's hypothetical match ups.
In a heads-up showdown match up, AT96 has 31-36% equity vs. A234. The 36% wins is if the AT and the 96 are suited and that the A234 is rainbow. The 31% is vice versa.
For a three-handed showdown match up of AT96 v. A234 v. KKQJ, the AT96 wins 15-19% of the pot, which is 50% larger, so its "equity" HAS gone down considerably. However, the A234 still wins about 60% equity in the larger pot (worst case regarding suits), so its equity and edge compared to the other hands has gone way up in a multiway pot.
My apologies to Barbara Yoon.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Michael 7 - "For a three-handed showdown match up of AT96 v. A234 v. KKQJ, the AT96 wins 15-19% of the pot, which is 50% larger, so its "equity" HAS gone down considerably."
A biased comparison!!! Cards of little use to the A234 are K,Q,J,T,9. The KKQJ is entirely made up of these cards. Choosing a hand made up of cards that are of little use to the A234 clearly hurts the AT96 more than the A234. KKQJ hurts the AT96 because (1) its very existence uses up cards that might be helpful to the AT96, (2) cards that help KKQJ win take away wins from the AT96 more than the