Blinds are $100 and $50. I have the BB for $100 and have $400 left after posting the blind. Everyone folds up to a player two to the right of the button. He moves in with his remaining chips for $150 and everyone else folds up to me, I call. Previously, he folded his blind to a raise that would have put him all-in. I suspect from watching him that his hand is a "do-or-die" hand. He probably has a pair or an Ace with a decent kicker. Since, there is $300 already in the pot I am getting odds of 6-to-1 to call for $50. What is the worst hand that I should call him with?
How many players left? How many chips in play? How many places pay? etc.
2d,
My only question is what I an interested in. But, I will try an answer your questions.
"How many players left? Approximately 80. I'm at a full table. 10 players.
How many chips in play? Don't know. It was a rebuy event with 100 players.
How many places pay? Ten.
Everyone seems to be in favor of calling without looking, but, this early in the game, I have to think you would want to only risk an eighth of your stack with a good hand. Late stage maybe you'd shove it in, but the chances of your picking up something more playable next round kinda has me leaning towards tighter play.
With it being early in the tournament leans you _even more_ towards a call, as there is no payout ladder to inch up yet. You're putting in 50 to win 300, losing the 50 hardly hurts you at all and you will not be a 6-1 dog to win the pot.
Anyone who says that "pot odds do not matter in tournaments" is simply wrong in this case (but they seem to be on holiday right now anyway :-))
Andy.
Dont even look at your cards..call
.
.
Anything at all
nmsg
6 Players left, Blinds are at 1500-3000. I have T5000 and the BB, so I have T2000 left, enough to post the small blind and get another rotation. Player to my left goes all-in for 3500, everyone folds to me (including small blind who is the chip leader?!?!?). I look down and see Q-2o - do I call or not? My thinking was if I folded I got another rotation but only had T500 left and would probably have to play my small blind hand.
I called and made a pair of dueces which held up (he had J10, but this is irrelevent).
Yes or No?
I suppose so, but (unless you are short stacked due to losing a hand rather than being anted away) it would have been better to make a move before you get this low, and when you can be the bettor not the caller.
Andy.
How many places get paid? How important is it to you to crawl up maybe 1 more spot, versus maximizing your EV?
If you want to maximize your EV, you must call here. In fact, even if he had raised enough to put you all-in now, you should probably call with anything (since you'll be getting almost 5:1 on the call).
Also, Andy is right. Unless the circumstances were such that all of this had to happen, you should have made a move earlier when you still had enough chips to steal effectively. However, sometimes getting short-stacked is simply unavoidable.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yes
They paid 4 places. And yeah, I should have made a move but the chip leader was to my right and was quite aggressive. That's what miffed me about that hand - he didn't call another 2000 out of the small blind. He ended up getting busted out in 5th after some horrendus play after this situation. I had never played with him before but afterwards realized I could have probably doubled up against him several times.
He went all in (with about T30000 in chips, maybe more) several times before this happened just to steal blinds. Horrible play if you ask me. Especially considering the whole table picked it up and started chopping him down after his small blind incident.
If it makes you feel better, next time don't look at your cards. Any two cards are worth 500 chips here. I would have been grateful that the small blind didn't put me all in.
NLHE tournament, 8 players remaining. Pays 4 spots. I have approx. T80k in 5th position. The blinds are 3k-6k. I have about the same amount of chips as the chip leader who is UTG this hand. The big blind is all in for 5k.
UTG mucks. 4th position has about T60k limps in. He is a maniac any two cards type, who hasn't adjusted his play all tournament. I have played with him many times and love to get into heads up pots with him and take advantage of his over aggressive bets and raises. I look down to see 10s Js. The two players behind me are very tight, and rather short chipped so not fearing a raise, I also limp. The small blind who has over 40k in chips mucks. So it is heads up for 2 chips on the side, Big Blind can win 15k.
Maniac says "I check in the dark", giving me the impression he has half a brain and wants to eliminate a player. Flop comes down 10h 7d 4c. Good flop for me but I check, just wanting to eliminate the big blind.
Turn comes the Ad. Maniac looks at his chips then hesitantly checks. I check too thinking he probably hit the Ace. River card is the 10d and much to my surprise the maniac bets 16k instantly.
I am holding trip tens and am now forced to make a decision. Fold here and hope he beats the big blind and take the small loss of 6k. Call and hope to beat him and win a huge pot (52k). Or raise and either win it uncontested or win when he calls and have nearly all the chips at the table, if I lose I will have about 20k left which will put me among the three small stacks.
What would you do and why? I will post the result later today, I hope to hear some of my thinking from you guys as I feel like I made a huge mistake.
Regards,
Dony
Who the hell knows.Just classifying a guy as a maniac is not enough.You have to try to guess what THIS guys next move might be.Categorizing is easy.
It all comes down to what you know about this guy. No rational player would try to bluff into a minute side-pot when the bet can only be a loser if called. Is he irrational enough to do this ? Is he rash enough to bet the Ace for value ? Does the instant tempo of his bet indicate strength or weakness ? Depending on the answers to these questions I might call or fold but I would not raise.
There's not much wrong with a bet on the flop either. Is it the case that, in practice, "trying to knock out the big blind" only managed to get you knocked out yourself ? You're still 4 places away from the money, so look after number one.
Andy.
Bet the flop. You have the best hand. By not betting the flop you put yourself in a difficult situation. The "maniac" will not call on the flop with a naked ace. Your options on the river are to fold or call. I certainly would not even think about raising. Your opponent probably made a backdoor flush and you are beat. The only hand you can beat is an ace.
Bruce
I'd'a just called; nothing he would call a raise with you can beat. Never go broke in an unraised pot. Did he backdoor a flush on ya?
Flop comes down 10h 7d 4c. Good flop for me but I check, just wanting to eliminate the big blind.
That reasoning makes very little sense to me. You are too far from the money and he is too short stacked for you to alter your play just for him. He's all-in, so just ignore him and play your best heads-up game with the maniac.
You are the big stack, have position, and have top pair with an overcard kicker ... if you can't play that situation aggressively, then you shouldn't be playing JTs (which actually would be my recommendation and this situation is a perfect example of why).
A Poker Guy!
Big apple classic a very interesting hand came down at the final table. This tourney is a no limit format similar to the WSOP with each player starting with 10k in chips. It was quite painful for me as a came up on the losing end, but don't think there was much i could do.
We are 5 handed at the final table. Blinds are 5k and 10k with 2k ante. I'm in the small blind with aprox T210k in chips with k-j suited. Big Blind is short stacked 12k left after posting the BB.
UTG has aprox 170k in chips and makes it 20k to go. I thought this was a strange raise for a no limit game, but felt it indicated weakness not a suck in move although i clearly wasn't sure. Other 2 players fold and the action is on me. I call 15k more and the big blind goes all in for 12k more making it 22k total. Preflop raiser calls the 2k more. Action is back to me and i consider making a VERY large reraise to blow the preflop raiser out, there's 76k in the pot including the antes but decide to take the flop for 2k.
Flop come Kd Jc 10c...i'm quite happy with this flop and opt to check hoping the preflop raiser caught a peice of the flop and will bet... He checks. I knew this might be dangerous, if an ace or queen falls i'm dead, but i thought it was worth the chance. Turn brings the king of clubs and now i'm full!! I think to myself if i check here, the preflop raiser will try to represent the king or might think an underpair is good. so I check....and the preflop raiser moves all in 150k!!! I practicly beat him into the pot. There's about 400k in the pot and the winner will be the chip leader.
At this point both players turn over there cards and i show my kings full. The preflop raiser shows Ac-10d. As he's getting up to walk away the dealer burns and then turns......you guessed it THE QUEEN OF CLUBS. I almost fell off my chair. Royal flush at the final table to beat a made full house on the river!!! How that for excitement.
I don't think there was much i could have done different except for maybe reraising preflop to get heads up with the BB all-in(he had nothing FYI). Any comment welcome, although i posted it more as just an interesting hand. Yes, i'm still sick over it!
Wow!
It is hard to believe how poorly the UTG guy played here. He moves all-in on a SEMI-BLUFF, against another big stack, when there is an all-in player and NO side pot. AND his semi-bluff could easily be drawing dead to the Queen with two Kings and two other big cards on board.
That being said, the moral of the story here is to NOT call raises from big stacks when you are out of position and have a trouble hand like KJs.
Your reasoning on the flop was also faulty, IMO. Rather than thinking how you could play for a big pot against the other big stack, you should have figured out how to take the pot down on the flop, and proceeded accordingly. With an all-in player, betting out is probably better than check-raising. Top two is not all that strong here with that coordinated board and the all-in player "protecting" the pot. Of course, after you turned the nuts, you correctly targeted a play to get all of the other guy's chips.
But what do I know, I busted out (of the money) in the very same tournament, when I should have known that pocket Queens can never beat Dr. Harvey's pocket Tens.
Congrats on your high finish.
p.s. I don't think an all-in move before the flop would have been a good play on your part. There is just too much uncertainty about the UTG's strength. However, for the UTG player, it is almost mandatory to move in after you showed weakness and the short stack gave him an opportunity to play heads-up (with a decent Ace) for all that dead money.
Michael Tedesco
Michael....Thanks for the comments, I want to stress here that i didn't post this to critize the play by the UTG player. I was unsure how to proceed on the flop due to the strange raise preflop. Although i felt that his small raise was probably weakness, i clearly wasn't sure. It just as easily could have been a trap with a hand like a-a k-k(not likely). I thought if he bet the flop it meant a-a or a-k and with that i come over the top and blow him out on the flop if he bets. YES i knew checking was risky, but with that flop, i thought for sure he had enough to bet it.
Such is life!!!
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. You Jersey wanker.
Pussyfooting around can yield either results or stories .Which were you looking for.Live by the ....................
I might be missing something, but would you be allowed to re-raise the big blind's partial raise of 2K anyway ?
Andy.
Played a Limit HE tournament Sunday, and went out on the following hand (somewhere halfway the tournament):
Blinds are 100-200, I'm in the small blind and have T1000 left. Everyone folds to me, I raise my KQs. BB calls.
Flop comes A-J-7 rainbow (one of my suit).
I check, BB bets. I now think I should definitely have folded, but instead I called. On the other hand, how likely is BB bluffing here?
Since I decided he was bluffing, I called on the turn and river as well, which was consistent, but very bad.
Two things irritate me: (i) I got married to the pot by rasing preflop, and (ii) although folding was probably the best, would betting out have been better than meekly check-calling??
I suck, don't I? Comments are appreciated!
You're right, check-calling was probably the worst choice available (unless you check-raised the turn, which might have been a good bluff, depending upon your opponent and their hand).
The best play depends upon the opponent and his current state of mind, but betting out would be my most common play on this flop, as he figures to fold any hand that doesn't contain an A or better. The second best play is checking and folding. The check-and-call-the-flop and then check-raise the turn is third, and check-and-call to the river is last. Other creative plays probably fall in there between play 3 and 4.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thx! What do you do on the turn if he calls your bet on the flop?? Bet again?
Now this is the REALLY tough question. Would he call the flop bet with a J or 7 (or maybe even a weak A), but then fold to another bet? If he has any pair, with the board or in the pocket, is he going to call you down no matter what? Would he call with a worse draw than yours (KT, QT)?
Against the majority of regulars about whom I know the answers to these questions, I check-and-fold. Fortunately, most of them are too timid to bet the turn when I check unless they were slow-playing a 2-pair or better flop. Thus, I often get another shot at completing my gutshot straight for free.
Most competent players, if they can call the flop, raise the flop instead (unless they're trying to induce you to bluff some more, which isn't a bad strategy here). In fact, against my more aggressive opponents, I might just call, call, call with a hand like KJ after this flop. If you have an A or KK or QQ, I've reduced my losses (as a raise by me won't likely get you to fold), and if you have a worse hand than me, I can win more than if I raise the flop and get you to fold then.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This seems to be a very common betting pattern (in early position) for both good hands and drawing hands: bet on the flop, then check the turn (with the idea to check-raise the good hands, of course).
Your PFR was strong and followed by a bet on the flop might have gotten a small Ace fold. Your check call was bad a check fold was better but I prefer the bet out in the flop if raised I'm out of the hand.
Sounds like good advice to me.Theres lots of hands he can pass that youd like him to pass like just about anything .If he passes great.If he raises pass IF he calls pray for a ten.If you check itsOVER.
*headscratch* You called because he might be "bluffing"? What sort of real hand did you have ...?
Ok here it goes. It's long but bare with me...
A bunch of friends and I play a dealer's choice (not a tourney) in which I am the best player, I easily beat that game. I've got a solid poker foundation, HE, 7 stud, Omahe, draw, name it.
Recently, we've started having NL HE tournaments. 3 places pay. Usually 7-8 players. You get T1000 and blinds start at 5-10. Doubling every half hour.
There is one loose maniac, loose calling stations, and a few average players.
So we've played a few tournaments. I manage to survive a few rounds. I win a pot here and there, steal blinds here and there. But I can't get past the 4th place. When we get short-handed (with 5 players left), I find myself short stacked and getting eaten by the blinds. I loosen up according to short-handed strategy. These loose canons are playing closer to proper strategy and don't even know it. Of course they'd get killed in a full ring game but that's another story...
I've read and studied TJ's NL PL HE. I know not to draw after the flop. Not to go with pot odds and all. Either I have it on the flop or I fold. But that's the point, you usually don't flop much...
Now I realise that,in a single table tournament, ther's the luck factor here. But twice has that maniac won. (I'm not saying you should play that way BTW) He plays EVERY hand, forget about stealing from him or bluffing him.
They know I fold a lot and I realise that they bluff me a lot. Now how can I make them behave when I flopped crap? Should I bluff-raise them? I doubt that a big amount would make them lay any marginal hand. So if I get called, I'll probably lose to bottom pair and there goes my stack.
You can't wait for top notch hand anymore when the blinds are catching up.
Have I been unlucky or am I playing it wrong?
How should I adjust? Should I bluff more to steal from those average players who can fold?
What would be my best strategy?
Help please...
Any comments appreciated...
theprince00
"What would be my best strategy?"
Try "hitting the wall", as in a marathon. Or getting over the hump. Or... well that should give you a good idea of what you need to do. If not...
Vince
You say recently, so you clearly haven't played many of these yet. That means that luck is still the most important factor in determining who's come out ahead so far.
Plus, you're right. If your opponents' major mistake is playing too loose preflop, then they are playing more correctly when it gets short-handed. Thus, you may find that you have a smaller edge in these tourneys then you do in the ring games.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The day TJ writes the book Ill buy it.Stu didnt. these guys are the ultimate geniuses on the topic of nolimit holdem .You didnt really expect it to be that easy DID YOU,?
You have to learn to shift gears a bit.
I mean playing hands you might play in late position in mid position nothing drastic - you also want to be taking more flops with any pairs in any position. Specially against the mainacs. I'd be raising (short handed) with small pairs and Axs early against this type of opposition.
Stick with solid poker it will pay off - Sounds like these loose players lend them selves to a trapping scenario.
Nice to see you back. When are you coming over to the UK ?
Andy.
Andy leaving monday the 12th - I may just make it to Luton if I get the chance. Hoping for some good action in Reading.
I am hoping to make it to Paris for the Summer tournament at least the 6/16 and 6/18 events.
If you like email me your telephone # and I'll ring you to set something up.
Rounder - prepare to loosen up if you play at Reading.
They play 6 or 7 to a table (players deal) and after the buy-ins end you are often playing against 3 or 4 opponents till they split up tables.
Once you make the final though its 8 seated, you get a dealer and you will be back in a normal tourney.
dave thanks for the heads up.
I like short handed play hope to make an impression.
1st Chicago tournament.
$110 buy in you get T$1500 - rebuys $55 for T$1500 (must be under T$500 to rebuy) after 1st hour (4 15 min rounds) add on $55 for T$4000 - seems like the 1st hour means nothing might as well take off and see a movie since you can buy T$4000 for 1/2 the buy in.
Real poker starts after the 1st break.
Pay off is 70% 20% 10% only 3 places paid. Last night I think 55 started - I finished 5th - blinds were 5,000/10,000.
One interestnig call by the floor. BB found 3 cards AFTER UTG raised. Floor killed the hand and returned the BB to the player - play resumed. DUH! Can you say Mis-deal - hand totally scrwed up.
Would you guys play in this - it IS the only game in town.
If I had nothing better to do and I didn't have to drive real far perhaps I might, especially if they had a good buffet and they had a two for one special in the bar.
Bruce
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Rounder,
A few questions.
Is this the one that's listed as GAMING CONCEPTS Charity Poker in Poker Digest?
How much of the buy-in went to the prize pool?
Was it Limit or No-Limit?
I think with a small field like this you should have a good chance to win. Try to make a deal next time.
I think $10 of the buy in and $5 of the rebuys is the juice. It is limit until the 10,000/$5000 blind is reached then NL - it is the one from PD.
Well, of course I'd play in it...I did! (Finished 8th, btw). The reasons I play in it, in no particular order, are that it IS the only tourney in town, there is lots of dead money (about half the field is dead money, REALLY dead money), and I've had success there (Chopped heads-up in January, one outright win last September, a couple of seconds, third, fourth, fifth, in about 15 events over the last year (they hold them once every 2 weeks, on the average). The 3-4-5 finishes got me money, too, as we usually save a little bit when we get down to 5-6 players. After busting out, I tried to help the cause, knowing Rounder hadn't played with these guys before, dropping hints like "Did you guys save anything?" and "Hey, what did you all save for?" from the rail, but to no avail. Many of the guys will pick up on that, and I've made some great deals in the past, but there may have been just too much disparity in the stacks for it to work Tuesday. As far as the bad floor decisions, I live with it, figuring it puts other more tiltable players at a disadvantage. Plus. being a regular, I've found that persuasion often helps the decision go my way. Also, Rounder saw me make one REALLY bad play at the final table, wonder if he can point it out. Maybe I'm opening up a can of worms here, maybe he saw me make MORE than one :-) Welcome to the Twilight Zone, Mike, Frank Brabec NUT-Z
Frank,
I'm not sure I would have called that raise with the AJs but you were in danger of being blinded out.
I looked like a brillant player calling that guy down with my no pair AK - but he was bluffing all the way and I would have bet a grand he was - his strong tossing of chips and zombi like gaze at the board was a dead give away - Of course if I was wrong I would have looked like a real magoo. Just before the final table I mucked an AK on a flop with 2 other players betting and callind so I mucked and flashed a younger guy he said on the break it was smart to muck AK when you missed the flop and will start to do it. Of course it "depends".
I agree about the dead money I think it is more like 80% - all but one of the final 10 was a good (the guy on my immediate left). I was impressed with the younger players they must have read TJ book :-) or Maybe even TOP.
Anyone know of any late night tourneys in LV on Friday or Saturday night?
Orleans 7 P.M, not very late.
I am at the final table with 5 players left. Acting in the big blind.
I have $3000 in chips. Blinds are $1000-$1500.
Small blind is all-in for $1K. If two players go out at the same time the payouts for the two positions are combined and split.
I see KQo. Big stack on the button calls and it is my option.
I decide to check my option and see the flop.
Flop comes rainbow rags. I check, big stack bets. I have enough for the small blind with one $500 chip left.
Question:
a) Should I have raised all-in before the flop? b) Should I now call the bet from the big stack.
These answers depend upon some facts you haven't included. How many chips does each player have (i.e., the other 3 you didn't give)? What does each place pay?
However, the answer to a) is probably no no matter what extra facts you give us. The button called 1 bet with only 1.5 bets in the pot, and it seems highly unlikely that he would now fold for 1 more bet with 3.5 bets in the pot.
I suspect he limped in because he wanted you to stay in and help him eliminate the all-in. If he raises, you may readily fold to move up to 4th spot, and then the all-in player has a much better chance of surviving. By keeping you in, all-in is more likely to go out.
Now, he bets the flop. I doubt that it is a bluff. If he wanted to bluff, preflop would have been a much better spot to do it. Therefore, I would guess that it is quite likely you're behind, and you may be dead. If not dead, certainly you have no more than 6 outs.
Of course, if this guy is an unthinking player, none of the above applies, and your guess is as good as mine. In either event, after you checked the flop, the fold is probably best in the vast majority of circumstances.
Did you consider betting the flop? If he called with a better hand like Ax, he might fold to your all-in bet. If you think that there's a good enough chance of this, then a bet will win you an immediate 1K, plus you still have a slight edge over a random hand at this point, making you a slim favorite for the main pot. To be clear, I'm guessing at this last point, and it may be that after a flop of 3 small cards that a random hand is a favorite over KQo with no flush draw.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Check before the flop and fold on the flop. You flopped nothing and will probably be in 4th place after the hand is over. The buttons bet suggests he has a piece of the flop and you can't even beat ace high.
Bruce
If you are willing to call a bet on the flop in that situation, then you should be betting out first. You don't fear a re-raise with only T500 left after your bet, so either just check and fold, or bet and pray, but never check and call ... its a weak play. You remove the possibility of him folding to a bet by checking to your opponent and letting him bet it.
A Poker Guy!
I would be trying to win the tournament. You probably aren't going to finish very high without any chips. I'd put the money in the pot before the flop and try to double up. KQ is a big hand shorthanded, and you probably have the big stack limper beat before the flop. It sounds like he out-flopped you, but his smooth call before the flop is very strange. My guess is that this player isn't very experienced, and you should put your hand against his/hers for your stack.
Thanks. This is what I decided after thinking about this hand. I should have played it before the flop to see all five cards (sort of a NL play). The turn and river were the K & Q (which really makes no difference to the correct play). The truly irritating part was that the chip leader made a play at the pot with nothing on the flop and the other all in got the main pot. Sigh!!
I just got off my third small tournament. (two 7-card stud and one hold-em) Both are limit tournaments with unlimited re-buys for the first half, an add on at the half.
In three tourneys, making all re-buys and add ons, playing only quality cards, I have not yet won one hand.
Is this not that unusual in tournament play? These are my first tournaments ever, so I'm not sure if others go through this or if I am just off to an incredibly bad start.
Your chances of winning a hand are probably pretty equal in a tourney or in a ring game. The only real variables are how many pots are you entering, how many others are in there with you, and what is the typical quality of hands for each group. Of course, these variables will vary in both forms, and neither form necessarily will yield a lower rate of winning hands.
However, you may be folding on the end too much also. If not, then it's just been bad luck (and even if you're playing bad, there still must be some bad luck going on also).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What do you mean by quality cards?
May be you are playing a bit to tight. Give us some idea of what you are playing and in what position.
As a tip I like to isolate certain players mostly weak and/or loose - but position is all important in this tactic.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Has anyone read PL/NL Poker by Bob Ciaffone? Is it good or should I stick with TJ'S Championship PL/NL Hold'em. Thanks in advance.
It would be money well spent.
Get them both - they have something to say worth while.
Read both.
Regards,
Richard
Definitely both. To expand, once you compare two views on the subject (or any poker topic), you can compare the similarities and differences and it helps you understand why the authors are saying what they say and how it relates to the kind of game you play in. It's like providing an extra dimension.
Andy.
Excellent book; well worth the investment. I have it and have read/reread it many times. It has helped to make me into a much better PL/NL player, both live and tournament.
What about Super System???
This book is listed at $50, and is authored by Doyle Brunson, but I haven't heard anyone mention in the last few threads about Tourney / NL / PL books.
I haven't read it. Should I, or would I do better spending my $50 on the other two and a sandwich?
One Hour after the rebuy period. There are 70 players left, and the blinds are $100 and $50. You have the big blind. After posting you have $400 left. Ten players are at this table. Everyone folds up to a player two to the right of the button. He moves in with his remaining chips for $200. You know that this player will bet with one of the following hands: AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, A8, KQ, KJ, KT, K9, K8, or a pocket pair down to sixes. The small blind folds. There is now $350 in the pot and you are getting 3.5-to-1 odds to call. What hands do you call with?
It's not quite as clear-cut as the last example we had but I'd still be inclined to call with any 2 cards.
Andy.
You can call without looking.
You are not a 3.5:1 dog to that selection of hands, even if you look and see 32o. So, why even bother to look? It's more exciting to wait until the river is dealt, and then turn your cards over 1 at a time and see if you made anything (don't take too long, just a couple of seconds, or you're being impolite).
Someone has to have an incredibly tight selection of hands before you need to look when getting 3.5:1. Look at it this way, even if he has AK to your 32, he's nowhere near a 3.5:1 favorite. Too get more than a 3.5:1 edge, he pretty much needs to have a pocket pair higher than both your cards.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Anything. It has no material effect on your stack size if you call and lose (T400 vs. T300) and no material effect on his stack size if you call and he wins versus you just folding and giving it to him (T350 vs T450). You are both still screwed if he wins, and you have some room to manuever (not a lot, but a little) if you win. So there is nothing to lose and everything to gain here. So you don't even have to look at odds to figure this one out. But hey, I like those odds too.
A Poker Guy!
Played in a 30 player Limit HE tourney yesterday, and didn't drag a single pot. Not one. I lasted until just after the break and finally picked up a playable hand, AQ, under the gun. I raise just about all-in, all fold around to the BB who has AK. Flop is AKx. . .turn is a K. Sometimes I think the poker gods are just trying to rub it in.
Anyway, I stuck around and watched the final table. 3 spots paid and it's now down to 4 players. Player A is in the small blind (T400). He's the overwhelming chip leader, with about T10,000. Player B is all-in for the T800BB. Player C is UTG with T1100. Player C calls the BB so she's got T300 left, Player D (button) folds. Player A just calls as well. Now here's the big mistake. Why didn't the chip leader put player C all in for her final 300?? With 3 spots paying, by putting 2 players all-in, he locks up a spot in the money. Anyway, player C folded on the flop and lived to see another hand. The all-in BB wound up winning the pot, so the hand started with 4 players and ended with 4 players, when it could have been an automatic knock-out for someone. I tried to explain this to the chip leader, but he said "well, I didn't have a great hand". I tried to tell him that any two cards would do for the exact reasons above. In the end, the BB player wound up winning and the chip leader came in second, but this hand would have been a disaster if the UTG player had taken her last T300 and doubled through a few times, ala Jack Strauss.
What do you think? Am I right?
Totally agree here...
HUGE mistake not putting that other player all-in.
IMHO, with that's stack, it'a blind raise...
theprince00
I agree that the chip leader should have put both players all-in. However, even if he did, that doesn't mean that he's certain to eliminate anybody.
As it was, the BB beat CL. If the BB also beat UTG, then BB wins the hand and T2400. However, the UTG player must lose to CL to be eliminated. Otherwise, he survives with T600 (instead of the T300 he got by folding).
UTG is the real screw-up here. By folding on the flop, he's saving T300, but losing a shot at T2700. If his hand wasn't good enough to call after even the worst flop with these odds, then it wasn't good to call preflop. The only way he can play intelligently preflop is to raise and hope that he thereby causes all others to fold, leaving him heads-up against the BB's random hand and his presumably much better than random hand.
If this is the type of tournament where the simultaneous elimination of 2 players means that they tie (most tourneys, IME, award the higher finish to the player who started the hand with the most chips), then UTG should fold pretty much everything, and maybe really everything (i.e., even AA). However, it depends upon the amount of money paid to each spot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think so. Last night I saw a guy turn 200 chips into about 25,000 at the final table and that was without anyone doing him any favours. It happens more often than people might think.
Andy.
Of course you are right - tournament strategy and tactics is what seperates good players from no hopers.
Some hands are must plays and others are don't play under any circumstanes it gets really situational at the final table. It takes brains to win and place in tournaments you won't find many low IQ types making the money on a consistant basis.
I'm with you, it was a mistake if that was his reasoning. But this is typical for people without a lot of tournament experience. They don't pay attention to stack sizes, because in limit ring games, stack size is almost irrelevent, so they aren't used to or don't really understand the importance of stack size, and thus don't take advantage of it.
A Poker Guy!
I would like the opinion others about this book. I felt he could have went deeper into why player act the way they do.
Well, Dr. Schoonmaker's book "The Psychology of Poker" is all about why players act the way they do, and goes into the subject in great detail. If that's what you're looking for I recommend it.
Andy.
Final Table, Seven Handed. NLHE Blinds 500/1000 Payout 4000,2000,1200,800,500,400,300
I pick up AcJc UTG and make it 3000 to go. (i've got 7000)
Player to my left (worst player at the table, calls raises with marginal holds and is capable of raising with much worse hands than mine, and he's the chip leader) reraises to 8000, and the guy on the button (solid player) calls all-in with 6500.
Is a call correct in this instance. If the player to my left plays as described and the other player only will make this play with AA,KK, and maybe QQ and AK.
In this instance I would pass. You have enough for another couple of rotations, to wait either for someone to go broke or to make a stand yourself. You are not only beaten but severely dominated by one player, and possibly beaten by the maniac.
Regards,
Richard
I believe that AJ suited or otherwise has to be the number one hand that people bust out with late in tournaments. We should have a special "I busted out at the final table with AJ" subcatagory within the tournaments section. In the early days of playing, it seems like I was always on the rail lamenting being busted out with AJ. Eventually I figured out that there was very little upside to that hand, and a whole lot of downside.
If you get an A flop, you cant get a worse hand to call, and if you get a call or a re-raise you are normally in big trouble. If a J flops (much better situation), then you still are very vulnerable and the turn and river hold great risk.
So, with that as a backdrop, I would fold in this situation and, in fact, would have passed on that hand UTG. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I must be crazy, huh? I like that hand much more in a late position.
So, you have one player that is essentially guaranteed (based on your read of him) to be ahead of you. You have another player that is wild enough to raise with a worse hand than yours (but, hey, he is the chip leader and maybe what look like bad plays on the surface are really smart plays based on his stack size?). So there is only T500 in profit from the the side pot if you beat the chip leader and lose to the solid player, if I understood your stack situation correctly.
I would have passed preflop on this, and would still pass on it if you have T7000 after folding. If you only have T4000 in front of you (not sure which situation applies based on the wording) then I would struggle a little bit more with the decision because I am almost stack committed and almost crippled if I fold, but probably still (with a lot of grimacing) fold it. I don't know if this is the mathematically correct answer, but I can tell you its the answer that wins me lots of tournaments.
Of course, stack size is at least as important as the hand you hold late in a tournament, so there are a lot of situations where I would play that hand, but not when I have a comfortable stack and a lot of time to manuever. And certainly not in a life or death situation.
A Poker Guy!
I can assure you the maniac was a really bad player.
I believe that AJ suited or otherwise has to be the number one hand that people bust out with late in tournaments. We should have a special "I busted out at the final table with AJ" subcatagory within the tournaments section. In the early days of playing, it seems like I was always on the rail lamenting being busted out with AJ. Eventually I figured out that there was very little upside to that hand, and a whole lot of downside.
If you get an A flop, you cant get a worse hand to call, and if you get a call or a re-raise you are normally in big trouble. If a J flops (much better situation), then you still are very vulnerable and the turn and river hold great risk.
So, with that as a backdrop, I would fold in this situation and, in fact, would have passed on that hand UTG. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I must be crazy, huh? I like that hand much more in a late position.
So, you have one player that is essentially guaranteed (based on your read of him) to be ahead of you. You have another player that is wild enough to raise with a worse hand than yours (but, hey, he is the chip leader and maybe what look like bad plays on the surface are really smart plays based on his stack size?). So there is only T500 in profit from the the side pot if you beat the chip leader and lose to the solid player, if I understood your stack situation correctly.
I would have passed preflop on this, and would still pass on it if you have T7000 after folding. If you only have T4000 in front of you (not sure which situation applies based on the wording) then I would struggle a little bit more with the decision because I am almost stack committed and almost crippled if I fold, but probably still (with a lot of grimacing) fold it. I don't know if this is the mathematically correct answer, but I can tell you its the answer that wins me lots of tournaments.
Of course, stack size is at least as important as the hand you hold late in a tournament, so there are a lot of situations where I would play that hand, but not when I have a comfortable stack and a lot of time to manuever. And certainly not in a life or death situation.
A Poker Guy!
Here's my take. AJ seven handed is a strong hand. You really don't have enough chips left to make a 3000 raise. I would move all in preflop and remove all the guessing out of my play. With the maniac coming in behind you and now the solid player calling you really don't know where you stand. By going all in preflop you have removed all this second guessing. Also if you had moved all in the maniac and solid player may not have played back. It really is impossible for you to say with the solid player that you would be totally dominated. He could have a pocket pair less than jacks. The maniac can have have anything.
Let me rephrase my thoughts. If I was to play the hand, which I probably would I would move all in preflop. With AJ I would prefer no callers and the best way to acheive this is by moving all in. By moving all in you have the greatest chance to win. Not only can you win the hand if there is a flop but you can also win more importantly, if everyone folds. By making a small raise and now with two more opponents you are left guessing what to do. You have given the maniac a chance to outplay you because of his unpredictable nature.
Bruce
The solid guy has atleast QQ or better. There is no doubt. I've played with the guy before and was watching when this hand occurred.
Robin,
To answer your question, I would say call for several reasons. The maniac, well who knows what he has, but the button probably has a good hand, but you have already committed 43% of your stack. If you fold the hand you will most likely not finish very high in the payout. Which means that if you lose this hand you will get $300, but if you fold you may finish with $400 or $500 which is not much better.
I would normally fold this under the gun with shorter stacks to act behind me with the amount of chips you have. But, the best way to play this hand in this situation is to fold or move-in UTG. If you move-in you may not get called and get the blind money.
I played in a limit holdem event, $180,000 prize pool, 300 players and we are down to 6 tables. I lost the last hand at the 200-400 level and the limit is now 400-800. I have T900 left. Two hands later I post my T400 big blind and the pot is raised. Everybody folds. I have 73o and I muck my hand. I post my T200 small blind and I have T300 left. UTG raises and the next player reraises. Everyone else folds. I have 25o. If I call it will cost me my remaining T300. I am elgible to win T2000. What is my best course of action? Should I have gone all in when I was in the big blind?
I would call here, as hitting a miracle hand with 52o for 2000 is more likely than getting back to 2000 with only 300 in chips at the 400-800 level.
I would have played the 73o from the big blind. The raise, ironically, "protects" your doggy hand as you now only have to beat a single player. You are only an overwhelming in a heads-up showdown if the other player has a pocket pair above sixes. If he only has a big Ace, you would be between a 1.9 and 2.3 to 1 dog.
The only way I would have passed in this situation is if the raiser was extrememly likely to have a big pocket pair.
What were the 2 hands you folded before your blind? If either of them had been above average hands, I would have raised with them, hoping to get heads-up with the big blind. He might fold also, or if he'll call with anything, then you will be a slight favorite to win.
I would fold the worst of the above-average hands, just because of the risk of someone behind me waking up with a monster. However, I would play the top 40% or so.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't exactly remember. I believe one was something like J3o which I came real close to playing.
If J3o was the best you saw, then you did right by passing.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Does anyone know if the Discovery Channel is going to air the WSOP 2000? Their coverage of the 1999 event was great!
Thanks!
I have the week off and am going to play tonight in a 7 stud hi-lo tournament at the Commerce. I have never played the game before, which makes this even more intriguing. I am guestimating only 10-20% of the players have any real experience in this event so I am not such a huge dog. In a headsup situation how does KKx compare with 237 (rainbow) and A36 (rainbow)? It also appears to me that later in the tournament when most players have only enough chips to get involved in a few hands the action will tend to be headsup. If that is the case big pocket pairs seemingly would do well compared to three babies in general. Comments are appreciated. Thanks.
Big pairs do OK heads-up. Generally, 3 babies that are suited or straightable play best. However, a lot of the equity of small cards come from your ability to freeroll someone late in the hand, or to outplay a big pair when your board is scary. Once you get late in the tournament, and frequently someone is all-in on 3rd or 4th street, then big pairs will likely be preferable to 3 babies, even 3 suited or straightable babies.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the feedback. I borrowed a copy of Ray Zee's book and skimmed through it this morning. We'll see how it goes.
Bruce
okay, I've been watching and reading for months, now I gotta post and ask two questions:
Limit Holdem, last three tables, I'm short stacked T4000 blinds just raised to 1000/2000, and I'm told to move from my table, where I'm 3 or 4 away from the blind, to a new table where I'm going to be in the BB coming in.
Q1. Could I have insisted on staying at my table at least until the blinds or the button came around and not been forced to defend my blind immediately, or could I have at least argued the point? I was the shortest stack at my table, and I'm guessing she was picking on me... ?, or could I have at least insisted on waiting until I was in a similar position at the new table?
Q2. I am dealt in the BB a Q9d, and all fold to the button, who raises to steal, sb folds, and I'm stuck... If I fold, I've got the sb and then T1000 for the next five hands. I decided to defend. An okay choice?
thanks
Q1 - local rules are all that matter. How they move players to "even up" the tables is done differently from club to club. So, yes, argue the point, in case the person moving you is wrong. Best thing is to add this to your list of rules to learn about before the tourney starts.
Q2 - No-brainer call. In fact, since it was a button raise, in the absence of knowledge about this specific player, he doesn't need to have much to raise. In this case, I would have called without bothering to look first. You're getting 7:2 on the call, and the only hands that have you by that much or more are AA, KK, and QQ. Against most hands you're no worse than 3:2 underdog.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You had to call in this spot. You didn't say how the hand turned out, though I suspect you might not be second-guessing yourself if it had been favourable to you. Better luck next time.
Regards, Richard (who has never played live limit hold'em, and so might very well not know what he is talking about)
Calling is fine. Think of it this way - having 1000 left with blinds 1000/2000 is a completely hopeless position. Whatever hand you manage to find, you will have to beat 2, 3, maybe 4 opponents to stay in. Your chances will be slim.
I can't stress highly enough how important it is to get your last chips in 1) when you still have enough that you might make everyone fold and 2) as the bettor/raiser not the caller. Pick your situation, not just your hand.
Andy.
Okay, thanks guys.... appreciate the imput... was sure it was a good call, but wanted second opinions...
In fact, he threw over an A5o, and the flop came Axx, with a diamond, turn x, and it was over...
But, overall, I'd had a pretty good tournament. Made some plays, got some blinds myself, was outdrawn by crap once or twice heads up (head up?), but had me some fun all things considered.
I've seen players argue the point or whatever it takes to stall moving while the blinds pass. In any event, you're not going to win the argument.
The call was fine; you're shooting craps anyway. As Greg noted above, you're getting 7:2 and the worst likely situation you are probably looking at is about 2:1. Assume for example, he has A-Ko, you're only about 3:2 against; small pairs even-money -- and you could even be leading. Even if he has the big overpair, it's only 4-1 against you, which is pretty close to the price you are getting. The worst situation you can run into is when he has one of your cards and only then are you practically dead.
What about Super System???
This book is listed at $50, and is authored by Doyle Brunson, but I haven't heard anyone mention in the last few threads about Tourney / NL / PL books.
I haven't read it. Should I, or would I do better spending my $50 on TJ Coutier's book, Ciaffone's book and a sandwich?
Buy it. SUPER/SYSTEM is the best poker book ever written, in my opinion. Even Mason Malmuth gave it a 10 in his Gambling Theory Book. The No-Limit section is excellent along with the general theory. It does not tell you how to play a tournament, but the strategies in the No-Limit section still apply to the game. By the way, I think T.J.'s book is good for starting out. Get both.
If you don't buy Super System, you will miss out on one of life's better poker experiences. You don't just read it, you live it.
O.K. Ladies and gentlemen. What you have all been waiting for is coming to fruition. "Leaving FOR Las Vegas" thursday! First stop Atlantic City, New Jersey! My buddy Dangerous Dan and gorgeous Teri are meeting me there on Friday. First stop in AC, the Trop. 4:15 P.M. No Limit Holdem $120 Buy-in. Dangerous says that this is a tough tournament. No cake walk, I believe, were his words. Ratso, if you are reading this give me your take on the tourney, please.
I'm looking for a backer. Yeah, that's right. Hey Fossilman looked for one and got Zee, the Montana Mutant, to pick up all of his action. So why not me. After all I've won ... well almost won... well almost finished in ... well almost made it to the break... well I won a $20 satellite once for... I don't remember the tournament. Well I think it was a satellite. That's what the other two guys at the table said it was. The first time I ever played Indian poker though. It was tough guessing how high the card on my forward was but I go lucky. Of course I lost the next 10 in a row. Then those two guys left. I can't understand what they were laughing about. Well wait until next time.
So if anyone wants to back me, show up at the Trop Tournament Registration desk on Friday with $120. You get all of me for that, Baby!
Is anyone interested in how I do?
Vince
i'll be your backer i can send you all the aa info you requested and more for nothing i'm mailing it to the front desk at the trop as we speak
zclown
pf u speeled zclone rong!
wince
Well Vince, I am tempted but will have to wait on this one. I know a couple players inthe NL Tourney who would not like me to do that. Besides, what's a buck-twenty to a dude like you passin through to LV.
I might play, but I cannot get off work Friday early enough to get down there on time. I will be there by 8:00pm, but the tournament might be over.
The tourney attracts some very good players. There is 1 particular guy with a pony tail (not the real fat dude) who has won a lot of $$ in NL games. There is also a very young looking guy who scratches his head a lot and stacks his chips like an arrow. He's good too. An attractive Asian woman about 30 plays alot and overplays her hand often, but is a contender.
I have never played in the NL HE tourney, but have watched the end game a few times.
Good luck and if I get down there in time I will say hello.
"Is anyone interested in how I do?"
Yes, I am. I'm also interested in how you play it. Please post the details.
Hi,
Recent PLHE tourney, paying top 3 places only. There are 5 players left and I have 2nd lowest chips with T33k. Blinds T3k and I get AJs in seat four of five, blinds in seat 1 and 2. UTG folds, I raise T9k, folds to seat two who raises T10k and I raise all-in with my last T11k and he calls leaving him around T10k.
With so few players left I reckon my AJs as a pretty good hand. Re-raising player has also seen me muck twice in a row after getting reraised after an initial raise. I felt this was more likely to make him hime re-raise me with a weaker hand than otherwise he might have.
As it turned out he had 66, making the hand about 50/50 (correct?). He flopped another 6 but I caught a flush to beat that. I went on to split 80% of the money when it was down to two players (20% for 3rd)
Normally with this hand I would try to get in cheap or pass, but short-handed it somehow looks much better.
What is the experienced opinion on this? (I have played in only 9 of these events, 30 - 60 players PLHE and have made the cash 3 times so far) I am just a beginner really.
Thanks for any thoughts
Dave Veitch
5-handed, any A is a pretty big hand, and more often than not worth a raise preflop. However, I'm not sure I like your re-reraise preflop here.
Was there any reasonable chance that this player would fold to your last raise? I wouldn't think so, given that he was getting something like 5:1 on the call. As such, why not just call his reraise and see the flop? While it's likely that you should call any bet on almost any flop, he might check it down with you if neither of you improve, and this might let you survive if he has something like AQ or a small pair. More importantly, what if the flop had come something like KT8? When he checks his 66 and you bet, you can win a big pot at a point where you're the big dog in the hand. By going all-in preflop, you've lost the chance to bluff postflop.
Consider it next time, even if you think you're likely to be holding the better hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"By going all-in preflop, you've lost the chance to bluff postflop."
Just thought I would echo this.
Vince
What software is your's?
Assuming you mean mine (it is easy to post in the wrong place :-)), check out www.pokersoft.co.uk.
Andy.
I am looking for Mac compatible stuff
Sorry, can't help you there.
Andy.
Dave,
Basically AJ is pretty big 5-handed and you are thinking about the right things when you say the guy has seen you drop to 2 re-raises before. So I think you have to play it.
What Greg is saying I think (and he is right as usual) is that you should do what you can to make him fold. You may well be committed to this hand when you call the re-raise but he doesn't know that, and he is very unlikely to fold for 11K more pre-flop while there is a small possibility he might drop on the flop if he is too tight.
Sounds like you're doing pretty well so far - and your name is familiar - did you buy my software ?
Good luck,
Andy.
Hi,
Thanks for replies. The bluff on the flop (or even the turn) was not something I had thought of and is obviously something to consider in this sort of situation.
Andy, I did indeed buy the software and am finding it a useful tool. I am doing ok so far (> £1000 +ve) in 9 visits. However, I will be pleased if I can keep going once a week or so and come out in front at the end of the year. What the software needs now is an amendment to the game structure settings to allow a simulation of satellite play for the Ladbrokes Poker Mi££ion.
Thanks again
Dave Veitch
Dave,
You are correct not to get carried away and to wait until the end of the year before drawing any conclusions. Try to resist the temptation to loosen up because you have been winning. Although you should always be thinking about different plays and strategies, don't try to fix what isn't broken !
That's a very interesting suggestion about Poker Million structure (to my shame it never occurred to me before). I should imagine the play will be very tight in these satellites and the program isn't exactly geared to tight play but I'll see what I can do.
Andy.
I thought you folks might find it fun to provide your best guess as to a fair deal in the following circumstances. This is where we made a deal last night at FW in the weekly Tuesday night NL HE tourney.
Total chips in play: slightly <40,000
Prizes: 1614, 1198, 624, 416, and 208
Chips counts: ~12k, slightly <12k, ~7K, 5K, and 4k
Additionally, 7K was about to get the button, 5K the small blind, 4K the big blind, slightly <12K UTG, and ~12K the cutoff seat. T50 ante with T300/T600 blinds.
I later determined that I shorted myself by about $5. in the deal, so that's not good. I usually expect to come out ahead a bit, not behind. Even $5 behind I wouldn't do knowingly.
Later I'll tell you the deal we made.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have worked it out using my magic Equity Calculator but I won't spoil anyone's guesses by posting it just yet.
Andy.
If everyone used your strategy, there would be no answers to my question, now would there?
Anyone reading my initial post should realize that they are going to see someone else's answer as they read the responses.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Okey dokey,
Saying that "<12K" is actually 11.5K, we get equities as follows :
12K chips = $1020 equity ; 11.5K = $1000 ; 7K = $790 ; 5K = $660 ; 4K = $580.
I'm sure Kate would be far from alone in thinking that the big stacks were worth more and the small stacks less.
I just wanted to see a few more guesses :-)
Andy.
PS Unless I read the original question wrong, the blinds are small enough to make position a negligible factor here.
Andy, I'm new at deal-making. It's interesting you valued the big stacks proportionately less than the small ones. Is that because "the fewer chips you have, the more each one is worth"? But what's the algorithm? I agree, position hardly matters since the blinds are so small but I was thinking about "theory" before looking at the actual situation. Kate
Hey Greg,
Last week we did a deal with the last 3 people, about even stacks, $3500 left, $1170 each. Even stacks made it a nobrainer. Just thought Id mention it. Look forward to the details on this one.
OK, just for fun I'll take a shot. I made up an algorithm for taking table position into account and combined that with proportional awards and got: SB: $498.21 BB: $344.50 UTG: $1232.28 CO: $1252.63 Button: $732.37
Now to see what the others said...
Kate
There are lots of ways to try and calculate a fair deal. In my mind, the only truly "fair" method is to assign an estimate of finishing in each position, and multiply that estimate by the amount of money paid, and add it all up. Of course, this does nothing to help you determine a fair estimate. I still have not come up with any satisfactory shorthand method to do the estimating.
One common method is to do a split based upon chip count. In my case, we would have taken the remaining prize pool of $4060, and first subtracted $1040 therefrom (since we all had 5th place money of $208 locked up, you can essentially pay that out to everyone, and then divide the rest). Thus, we are playing for $3020 in remaining prize money. From this point, you simply multiply your percentage of the chips by $3020, and that's your share. Thus, with a total of about 40K in play, the stacks would be worth:
12K --> $1114.00 (remember, 2 stacks like this)
7K --> $736.50
5K --> $585.50
4K --> $510.00
As many of you know, this method tends to overvalue the large stacks, and undervalue the short stacks. So, I prefer my estimation method when deciding for myself how much I want before I'll accept a deal.
In the present case, here was my analysis after the fact:
1st 30% x $1614 = $484.20 2nd 30% x $1198 = $359.40 3rd 25% x $624 = $156.00 4th 10% x $416 = $41.60 5th 5% x $208 = $10.40
$1051.60
So, it appears that my deal of $1080 was actually $30 to the good. In my original post, I said that I had lost $5 of equity, but that was based upon finishing position estimates of 30/35/21/11/2, which I later decided were not accurate. I think the ones spelled out above are better.
As to how I got these estimates, the first one is easy. I had 30% of the chips, so 30% chance of winning. The rest are simply my best guess for each spot, based upon experience.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
2 tables of 8 and 7 left in a NL HE tourney, with top 5 spots being paid. There is about T40,000 in total chips in play. You're the big blind of T400, and everyone has anted T25.
All fold to the button who raises all-in for T1425. You don't know this player well, but he has not been entering very many pots, and shows no indication of being a loose cannon. You also sense that while he has some knowledge, he's inexperienced.
Small blind of T200 folds. Not counting the blind you posted, you have T3900, with it requiring T1025 to call. Do you call with QJo? Whether yes or no, what group of hands would you call with here?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Do you call with QJo? No. I don't like the situation. Against a fairly tight player even when he is on the button I want an edge. I beleive that it is too easy for my Q,J to be behind. I pobably fold Q,J suited here also.
"what group of hands would you call with here?"
If your speaking of Sklansky group hands I don't think it is cut and dried. Such as Group 1 - 3. I Call with Almost any Ace. Maybe not A,6 or A,7 but more than likely call with them. Any pair. K face. That's about it.
vince
Greg,
I've been trying to get you to answer this for me, since you're such a math whiz. Here's my answer, please help me if I'm wrong.
If I did my math right, you have $2225 in the pot before you call. So, you're getting 2.17-to-1. You need to call with 46% of your hands. See page 187 in HPFAP21C.
Mah wrote: >I've been trying to get you to answer this for me
Well, I have an opinion, but I want to hear what others think before sharing it.
>since you're such a math whiz.
*snort* I used to be a math wiz in high school. But, once we got up to differential equations, I lost interest. I have a solid understanding of the basic types of math, e.g., basic statistics, addition, and the like. Most of the participants, here or on rgp, know much more than me. In fact, compared to Dr. Sklansky (Dave's dad, not Dave), I'm a mathematical coma victim (Dave seems to know a lot more than me also, but he's NOT a physicist, so I can't be sure).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I had College Algebra, but that was 20 YEARS ago! I still know it, but I need someone to give me the equation, otherwise, I'm going to be really old by the time that I figure this one out on my own.
Help me Sklansky.
1. Make your "read"; i.e. what hands will the raiser have (any pair, AK-Ax + KQ, etc.)
2. Count up the total number of ways he can have each hand (6 ways to have AA, but only ways to have QQ or JJ since you have a Q and J).
3. Get tho probability that you will win for each class of "matchup" from a table or Poker Probe. For example, QJ will win about 40% against A9, 35% against AK, and less than 10% against the dreaded QQ.
4. Calculate your weighted win percent against this group of hands and compare to the odds the call is laying you.
NM
I call.
Inexperienced players tend to overrate small pairs and underrate Ax nad big cards when they are short-stacked and likely to get called. They also play cards more than position and don't tend to steal with "live" hands like JT, T9s, etc.
Therefore, I guess that the guy will raise here with the following group of hands: 22-AA, AK-A9, KQ and KJ.
Given the Q and J in your hand, my instinct tells me that our are probably around a 7 to 5 to dog against a hand randomly selected from such this group of likely "raisers".
Like DS, I'm too lazy to do the precise math, but given yor chip position and standing in the tournament, I would be biased toward a call.
PL HE tourney, 2 tables left. Total chip count: ~100k
First hand: Blinds: 100 and 200. I got ~4,5k, good and tricky player raises pot UTG, next player (bad, extremly loose) reraises pot. Both player got stacks about the size of mine. I look down and see AKd. Fold, Call, Raise? (I decided to fold)
Second hand: two rounds later, blinds moved up to 200 and 400. I got 4,4k. Everybody folds to me (button). I got A9d and raise pot (13k). SB folds, BB (a player who is a foreigner to me and who just moved to my table one round ago; he has about 5k) thinks and calls. Flop: T62 rainbow, no diamond. He checks, I bet pot (28k), he thinks for a long time and calls. Turn: T. He quickly bets his last money, I call with my last chips (3k) knowing that I probably don´t have even a 1% chance to win. He shows me T9h. Should I have checked the flop and folded if not improved on the turn?
Regards
M.A.
First hand I think is probably a fold. Player 1 being tricky and Player 2 being bad might push you more towards raising than normal but even bad players don't re-raise with much less than AK (do they ?). If you want to play it then definitely re-raise in an attempt to knock UTG out.
Second hand is really the classic situation you will find yourself in. Obviously your pre-flop raise is fine. It all comes down to your read of your opponent. A tight player is more likely to fold, and you want a fold, whether you are ahead or not. An aggressive player would have bet the flop if it hit him - unless he is tricky enough to check-raise. So you might tend to bet against a tight or aggressive player, and check against a loose or passive player. Extra outs, even back-door, would tip me towards betting but you don't have any. The more confident that you are of being ahead if you have both missed the flop, the more you would tend to bet (close call here). And I would be more inclined to bet with a big stack when I can get away from a check-raise - but again you don't have a big stack. All things considered I would be inclined to check behind him. What you do if he bets into you on the turn is another judgement call.
Two more points - it is crucial to watch the player and not the board when the cards come down as this is the very most important time to pick up a tell. And, in either case, if you have good control over the table and feel you can increase your stack in future hands without too much risk, that points you towards avoiding an all-in confrontation. If you are surrounded by good players than a confrontation is more to your advantage.
Hope this helps, and all comments welcome.
Andy.
PS If it's any consolation the worst play of the hand by far is his pre-flop call.
The first hand depends almost entirely upon who the players are. Will UTG fold anything less than KK if you raise all-in? Much more importantly, what hands could the loose player have reraised with? While he obviously would reraise with AA, KK, and AK, what hands that you are ahead of (probably mostly worse aces), and what hands that you're essentially tied with (pairs QQ and lower), would he also reraise with? If the number of possibilities of worse hands (AQ and below) is significantly greater than the number of times he'll have AA or KK, then rereraising all-in is a worthwhile play. You can put your money in where it's close to 50:50 (considering the total range of hands that loosey might be playing), and get a nice overlay of T1000 from the blinds and the initial raiser.
Calling is definitely the wrong play most of the time. Folding is never very wrong, while going all-in may be quite wrong if you've misjudged how loosely the loose player will play this spot.
So, if unsure, fold. If you're sure that he might be reraising with lots of different hands, go all-in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
A response by FossilMan kills theaction here. I'll have to be quicker.
I think that your preflop raise is almost mandatory.
I think betting the flop is almost mandatory. If you check this flop, you're just asking for the opponent to bluff you out on the turn, and if you don't catch, you'll pretty much have to let him succeed. It would sure suck to lose to KQ here just because you checked the flop and he bet the turn.
The call with your last 300 is also almost mandatory. You have up to 6 outs, and might even be ahead (he could be semi-bluffing with a gutshot straight draw or 2 overcards). You are right, it is highly likely that you're drawing, and you might be drawing dead. But, by my count, there is T8700 in the pot, and it only costs you T300 to try and win it. If you can't call with 29:1 pot odds and an overcard, you're wrong or you're psychic.
The only question in my mind is whether you could have intelligently bet less than T2800 on the flop, and thus been able to get away from your hand on the turn. If you play with the style of always betting the pot, then doing so again here was clearly correct. However, if you like to vary your bets, then this would be a good time to bet T1400 or so on the flop. If called, assume that you're behind, and be ready to fold to his turn bet, thereby saving T1700, which is enough to still have a reasonable shot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hand #1: I would tend to reraise with AK. There are less combinations available for your opponents to have Aces or Kings. Quite often players will be more aggressive when it comes down to the last two tables. They may be playing Ace-rag or even medium pairs. If you reraise and get all your chips, and intend on seeing the river, you have a 48.7% chance to pair one of your cards.
Hand #2: I'm suggesting this as an alternative. Check behind him on the flop. There's approximately a 33% chance that either one of you will make a pair on the flop. Since the flop did not help your hand at all, and it definately looked like you were stealing. If he makes a big bet on the turn, you can fold because you have nothing.
going all in the best
Bumped into Mike (Rounder) at last night's £50 Hold-Em in Luton. What a nice guy - he's a pussycat in real life :-). Unfortunately we were despatched to different tables and when I looked up after the buy-ins finished, there he was, gone. Should have had a last-longer bet. Great to meet you Mike, enjoy the rest of your trip and give us a report on the Forum.
It's a shame we weren't on the same table when this hand came up because I'm sure it would have been fun. Blinds 400-400 on the button, I have 3300 on the button before posting. All fold to the cut-off who goes all-in with 1600, 1200 to me. I have Qs9s, decide that I like it and call. But then the other blind comes over the top and raises my remaining chips, 1700. While I am considering this unwelcome turn of events, for some reason the re-raiser thinks I have called and exposes his hand - Ad8d. What, in the words of Henry Rollins, do you do ?
Andy.
As much as I'd hate that situation, I'd say fold. You already know your a dog to the blind that came over the top, and most likely your a dog to the cutoff as well.
Doug
At that point, you call and hope you suck out.
You're something like a 3:2 dog to the A8, so you are a dog for the 3400 side pot (you'll be putting up 1700 for an EV of about 1350, or -350 EV). But, that is more than made up by the equity you have in the main pot of 4800. I mean, to get 350 of EV out of the main pot, you only need to win that pot about 7% of the time. You'll probably win it about 20-30% of the time.
2 questions. First, did you look at the other blind before making your decision? Your call with Q9s is somewhat profitable if you know that the other blind will fold, or at worst call. Did you have reason to believe that he would fold?
Second, how stupid is this other blind player? What a horrible raise he made. It is clearly the worst decision made in this hand. He cannot win the main pot, nor is he likely to bluff you out since your call will be getting almost 4:1, and you already had a good enough hand to call a raise for 2:1. Thus, he's raising where he will often be a dog in the side pot, and cannot, as a practical matter, gain any extra equity in the main pot. It worked out as a +EV play this time, so I guess maybe he can really read you well. It appears he's an idiot or a genius.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"You call and hope you suck out". Damn right. I just wish Rounder had seen me calling even though I had been shown a better hand :-).
I had a look to the left before making my call but he gave no indication. You're right though, it is a very dodgy re-raise. The two hands people over-rate the most in my games are Ace-medium and medium pair where medium is 6, 7, 8.
Doug, I think the final call is almost mandatory here. My only doubt is whether I am dominated or worse (over-pair) but once I see that I'm not I'm getting 4-1 from the pot. There is also a good chance that the all-in raiser had exactly what he did - Ace-small which is no threat at all to my hand. If I beat A8, I beat him too 95% of the time.
What I think is interesting is that being shown the cards makes a call better whereas I can think of a lot of players who would tend to fold because "now I know I'm losing". I knew I was losing anyway, it just helps to know that my cards are live.
Andy.
PS I rivered a straight.
Since you glanced to your left and got no indication from the other blind what he would do, you should have considered reraising all-in to ensure that he folds.
This way, you will get your raise back, and then be getting your 2:1 odds for calling the original raiser. The advantage of this play over just calling is that you'll get hands like weak aces and almost any K to fold, thus significantly increasing your chances. This is especially true if the other blind would now fold hands like TT and JJ, hands which you lose to should you pair your 9 and no more. Plus, since you'll have to call anyway should the other blind raise preflop, the only way this play loses if when the other blind would have just called behind you preflop, but you could have gotten away from your hand and saved money on the flop or later. This will happen a lot, but I would still guess you'd rather get him out preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You fold and then vow never again to call such an aggressive raise with hand like Q9s.
natedogg
Call. You're getting almost 4-1, plus you can knock out a player and there won't be anymore betting. You should've folded to the first raise, but you'll be way too short-stacked if you fold now.
I don't particularly care for the first call. Were I to play the hand, I would have put my stack in. Why would I want to give A-8 a chance to call along? You're not playing shorthanded, so I think a fold is a better play. Once the action gets to the point where you ask your question, the call is automatic. This is clearly a case of a bad play gone good.
I can't disagree with anyone who questions the first call. I just thought that the second call illustrates an interesting point.
Andy.
sure its a call Andy as you well knew. what i didnt see mentioned anywhere was the consideration that you also have the button and a free round which is worth something. also what is the likelyhood of using the remaining chips to bluff your way back to present position without getting calls. those possibilities do swing some decisions that may look clearcut on the surface.
You're right Ray, there is a real possibility of building back up even from 1700 without getting called, although it's not enough to swing this particular decision.
My results have been a lot better lately and your advice to get the chips in before you get too short-stacked has really been a positive factor, thank you.
Andy.
mpust have really needed to posdt
nfm
Here is a hand Phil played during the $2500 pot-limit event at the WSOP. I won't bias the analysis by disclosing his action until people have had time to respond.
It is down to 4-tables of 8 or 9 (down from 235), about 5 or 6 players from the money. Phil is the chip leader at an 8-handed table with about 25k, and among the chip leaders overall.
The blinds are 400-800 and a shortish stack (from under the gun) brings it in for a pot-sized raise. The player has 1000 left after his raise to 2800 and it's folded around to the Poker Brat in the BB.
Phil looks down and sees A8 offsuit.
He has seen this guy play couple of pots and he seems to be solid and aggressive, but has not shown down a hand in quite a while. The rest of the table has been pretty tight, as Phil has been playing the bully and keeping others in line.
Phil turns off his headphones and goes into his routine ("You seem pretty solid, but I haven't seen you show a big hand; you're short stacked and have to raise with any medium pair, or decent Ace; you KNOW you can't steal MY blind; yada yada yada")
He's trying to ice the guy down. What's Phil's play?
Fold.
Essentially, this guy is making an all-in bet, as you can be almost certain that he won't fold if Phil reraises now, nor if Phil bets later. Also, if Phil checks the flop, this guy is probably got to bet and hope that Phil has missed big and will fold. In other words, Phil has to think of this as a call of T3800, not just T2800.
As such, it will cost Phil T3000 to win T5000. He is a much bigger dog than that to any better A or any pair 88 or above. He's slightly behind pairs 22-77. He's ahead of probably nothing that this guy would raise with here (could he do this with KQs or an A7 or worse?). Overall, against the "average" hand that this guy will be holding, Phil's worse than a 5:3 dog.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Could he do this with KQs, A7, or worse?"
Think about his position. He is directly to the left of PHIL **ing HELLMUTH. How can this guy ever steal the blinds to survive?
Well, if Phil would really call with anything, then this guy wants to get it all-in preflop with hands like KQ and A7, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Shut up and fold.One is as likely as the other.
Phil has to fold here. Give the short stack the blinds. It's not late enough in the tournament to start taking people out at a risk of doubling them up and no real advantage to yourself if you win.
However, Phil is a mediocre tourney circuit player at best. I think he's the most over-rated of "Big Poker Names" you read about. His biggest mistake has been to start revealing his hand analysis in "Hand of the Week" columns where he reveals all kinds of bad plays and misreads and makes you wonder if someone really can win for years at a time on nothing but a lucky streak.
I think Phil ran hot for years and he's now running average and he can't figure it out. When I read him describing his plays of raising with 34c or 10d8c on the button I have to wonder if this guy knows how to play hold'em.
My guess is that he called the bet and lost, doubling the guy up.
natedogg
Calling isn't one of his options. When you hold an Ace, you are rarely a huge underdog. When he's talking he's trying to get a read on his opponent, because if he's against a hand that is a large favorite to A-8, he won't put the guy all-in. He's either going to put $3800 in the pot or fold. So, tell me what he reads his opponent for, and I'll tell you what he does. Oh, and I think that Phil would probably be willing to play natedogg for whatever he'd like. If anyone is under the impression that Phil is a mediocre tournament player they are mistaken.
G. wrote: >Oh, and I think that Phil would probably be willing to >play natedogg for whatever he'd like.
Yes, but you can say the same thing, and change the name natedogg to probably any other name in the world. Phil appears to consider himself the best player in the world.
>If anyone is under the impression that Phil is a >mediocre tournament player they are mistaken.
I have no firm opinion of Phil's play. I have never played with him. I have heard people describe him as great, and as terrible. Give me a few hours at the same table, and then I'll have an opinion of my own, right or wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Although I've never played with Phil, I think its important to remember that he isn't necessarily playing textbook holdem. Sure S&*M wouldn't tell you to raise with 10-8 off, ever, but if you play the same every time you can't hope to win...without having the best hand. A player of Phils noteriaty has to vary his play, as does any other player who plays a lot of holdem. If you always play the same, your never going to get paid off when you make a monster, and some times you can raise with a cheesy hand on a deception play and get lucky...and all that does is further your image of incompetence in the eyes of people like nate dog...making people like that all that much easier to beat.
Hi, I was playing 10-20 last night when the following hand occurred:
I was the little blind. UTG calls. Next player raises to 20. Next 2 players call. Next player raises ( he is on a heater, winning 4 hands in a row, twice with nice high pairs). A few more people call and a few drop. So there is $155 in the pot so far and more than likely the others will also call the raise.
With AQ offsuit, do I call? I did call and so did the other players.
As it turns out, the big blind won with 66 when he flopped trips. The 2nd raiser had pocket aces. Quite the way to stop the heater.
I know with AQ you don't want that many callers but with that much money in the pot I thought it was the correct call.
Ken
NT
can we please stop this AQ shit. enough lets move on too something more exciting like capping 52o on the turn.
jg
NT
18 players left; top 9 pay
blinds $1000 and $1500
I have $4500 and have less chips than everyone except the BB who has $1000 after he posted his blind. Everyone else at the table has between 10 and 20 thousand. Two biggest stacks are to my immediate right and left. I am on the button and get pocket red dueces.
Everyone folds to me. What should I have done?
BB is in his 1st tourney and playing very tight.
SB haven't seen play before. 20K in chips though.
Go all in.Obviously the big blind has to call but will he?Theres probably loads of hands he might pass.Its not the end of the world if he does call.The big stacks are going to be the blinds next so picking their pockets isnt going to be too easy.
Sorry, forgot to mention that this was limit hold'em. This hand occured at the 1500/3000 level.
Unless he's a moron, the SB won't play garbage just to try and knock you out. Of course, there are lots of morons out there.
If you can assume that the SB will play correctly and fold most hands, then you should raise here. This is even more correct if the BB is so tight that there are some hands he might fold.
This is not a great spot, but it is a +EV spot. Given your super short-stack, and the fact that you cannot simply survive and reach the money, you must take shots like this in order to win chips. If you don't win some pots, you cannot make the money. Here you are a slight favorite against most unpaired overcards, and only a dog if he has a higher pair (which will happen only about 6% of the time). In addition to getting the T2500 from the BB, you also will have the T1000 dead money from the SB. This is crucial. If the same situation had come up with no SB, then you would definitely fold unless there was some significant chance of getting the BB to fold preflop.
Now, I'll argue the opposite. IF everybody is playing pretty tight, then you might be better off folding now and waiting for a better spot before the blinds hit you. In other words, you might pick up a hand that makes you more than a slight favorite over the BB in the next few deals. This strategy gives you a higher survival rate than raising now.
Here are the downsides of waiting. If the table is aggressive, you might pick up some decent hands and be forced to fold because someone has raised in front of you (you would raise with A9 if first in, but should fold to a prior raise). More importantly, why pass on this +EV opportunity just because another is coming? Why not play both, and win even more? If you win this hand now, and then they all fold to your late position AQ a few hands later, you can raise and steal the blinds, or get called and maybe win a much bigger pot.
You can't just win 1 or 2 small pots to make the money here, you need to win a few big pots, or many small pots. So, I don't see the justification on passing up a +EV opportunity.
If you were real close to the money, then passing would become a better play, and maybe the preferred play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanx Greg. I raised. The SB thought for a minute (seemed like an hour), checked her hole cards a couple times, and ...called.
Flop came Q-X-X 3 suits. SB checks, I bet my last 1000, SB calls. Turn and river are no help to me or the board. I flip my 2's over and she shows me the Q. The other card was either a 9 or ten, offsuit.
I think I made the right play preflop. This late in the tourney people are real tight and I have been turning over big hands. I really expected both to fold. BUT, my little stack didn't pose much of a threat to hers and we hadn't seen each other play. In her position I probably wouldve called also planning on putting me all in regardless of the flop.
So, was my flop bet horrible?
How was the SB play based on what she had for cards/chips?
Thanx
I don't like the SB's play one bit. With a BB behind her who is almost all-in, she should give up a weak hand like Q9 or QT. It should be clear to her that she's taking the worst of it preflop, and if she catches up, her opponents won't have any chips left to pay her off with.
Your bet on the flop is fine. If you check behind her, she will put you on nothing much, and call your later bet (or bet out herself) with anything, and she should. If you show that weakness, then she should bet hoping that you'll fold a better hand, simply trying to survive. Imagine the flop had come Kxx instead. If you check the flop, and she bets the turn, you might fold your 22, the better hand. Of course, if you really had nothing (such as K8s with the Qxx flop), then you might check and hope she checks to the river, thus allowing you to survive if she has A-little or the like. Here, there is still a decent chance that your pair of 2s is still best, and you should bet, hoping that she will fold rather than see 2 more cards and maybe make a higher pair.
I think you played your hand correctly, and she played hers wrong (as did the big blind, who should have called with anything), and that you subsequently lost the coin toss.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Raise. You are going to be blinded out of more than half your stack in the next round if you do not get a decent playable hand. Since you are so short stacked and not close to the $$, you should take this opportunity to try and get a few more chips. You want the blinds to fold, but if you get called by anything other than a higher pocket pair, you are at least a slight favorite. Since you cannot simply wait it out and get in the $$, you have to take some chances. Raise. Hope the blinds fold.
Dave in Cali
There were two full tables left in a no-limit hold'em tournament. I was on the button in fairly good shape with about $4000 in chips. I had been playing fairly tight and won almost every showdown I was in. The SB was a fairly good player who consistently showed quality cards. I raised the pot $1000 (my usual raise at this juncture) and the SB called after thinking about it for 5 seconds. Everyone else folded because they respected my raise. I was a little surprised the SB called. I had A-Q suited and thought I will have control of the situation if he checks and I go all in. However, the flop comes up K-8-3 (none of my suit) and the SB went all in for $2000! He beat me to the punch. I was absolutely positive he held a King or maybe a pair of 10's or something. I folded because there was no way to put a move on him and I didn't like my odds of drawing to 3 aces to win. Did I make a horrible mistake? The other players seem to think so.
he probably had the king. so your fold was ok. if you think he would go allin with anything then a call may have been in order. i bet he had ace king. but it seems you must discuss hands with your opponents at the table and thats not good. ive never seen any player that does that ever become a winning player that stays in money. plus if you are raisng on the button and everyone respects your raise that means you are playing too tight.
I'm glad you agreed with my hand reading skills. I felt it was better to fold and have some chips left. At least this way I would have a chance to grind my way back into contention.
About your advice on discussing hands, I never knew this would hurt me. I guess I was trying to impress my fellow players with a great fold. However, in retrospect I really should be mum about my hands and probably lie if I have to. This is probably a serious leak in my game. Thank you for identifying it!
This web site is great and I find it more useful than the rec.gambling.poker forum.
Trop's NL Holdem tournament on Friday had 72 entrants. It ended with a 3 way split about 9:45 pm. Nice game. Top prise would have been about $2,900 with lesser amts (naturally) going to the top 8 or 9 finishers. I suspect Vince Lepore can elaborate on the final 3 players.
Trop has 1 each month on the 3rd Friday at 4:15, $125 fee.
An old gentleman sitting to the dealers left (seat 1) makes a call from the SB and is all-in. As he places the last of his chips onto the table as a bet, his cards are momentarily unprotected. As he brings his hand back from betting, the fast paced dealer sweeps up his cards and mucks them!
The floor is called and decides to give the player all of his chips back. Other players object and say he must leave his SB in play, to which the floor agrees. This amount is about half of players total.
Is the player at fault for not protecting his cards or did the dealer screw up?
the floor made the best decision they could. it is clearly the dealers fault if he took a live hand. we all know that many (most dealers) are barely competent to run the game, thats why it is up to you to protect your own hand.
It's the player's responsibility to protect his/her hand. While it was careless of the dealer to muck the hand in this situation, the onus is on the player. While everybody knows that many (most) players are barely competent to play the game without detailed instructions, dealers are still expected to compensate for players' shortcomings.
While the above comment does contain a certain amount of truth, most players are competent. I am just pointing out that Ray's comments are inflammatory and partisan.
no my comments are close to the truth. maybe you are a good dealer but it is the dealers main job to protect the players. it is the players own responsibility to protect his hand but not to have to protect it from the dealer. most players are incompetent as well. thats why we can beat the games with ease. if the dealers put as much effort into improving their skills as the good players did id be happy.
I agree with this post.
Part of the problem lies with the fact that the more you can habitualize when you're dealing, the better attention you can pay to the details that are important. If you consider what tasks a dealer performs, over and over, it is difficult to not become mechanized in some aspects of dealing. Some of the tiresome tasks that present themselves to most dealers (like telling people to post blinds, and telling them when it's their turn to act, and telling them how many people are in the pot, and how much it is to call) detract from their ability to pay complete attention. A day dealing to top players, with keen senses of attention that didn't misbehave would be simple.
I still contend, that since the dealer isn't betting or risking any money and the player is, the onus is on the player to protect their hand against anything that could cause them to forfeit chips to which they're entitled. This is what I do when I play.
Just as there are limitations to the level of skill a player can attain, there are limitations to the efficacy of an individual dealer. It's actually a fairly demanding job, physically and mentally.
Your comments have validity, though. Just as with anything, it takes focus to become skilled.
I had a strange situation last week in a tournament. The game was 7 card stud 8's. I was dealt A4 under and an ace on top. I was sitting in seat 1 ( to the left of the dealer). The second card dealt to me is a 9. I bet 200 and someone says, where is your 2nd up card. We all look around and my 9 is missing. Presumably the dealer mucked it. The floor ruled I could have my 200 bet back. One opponent didn't want me to get it back. Not sure if I won another pot in the tournament.
Ken
you shouldnt be punished if the dealer took your card. it could have been retrieved from the muck. as always we must defend our little space from all the fingers grabbing at us. i hope though that you dont think your not winning another pot has anything to do with the hand in question.
No it just seemed ironic that I didn't win another hand.
Are you saying it is valid in my case to get the dealer to retrieve the mucked card?
Ken
if its known exactly what card it was there is no reason that the floorman cant go find it. always squark like a stuck pig when a decision is being made so they are intimidated to do the right thing rather than the easy way out that may appease the whole table.
This sounds like a poor floor decision. Certainly the card was face up and identified by several players (and the dealer). Unfortuneately, one of the biggest priorities of a 1 seat player is to maintain their own hand.
I'm in day 2 of a 2 day 550 buy in limit hold em tournament. We are down to 3 full tables, 10 places pay. I was down to a stack of about 10,000 after being bluffed out of a huge pot, when my pocket 10's got counterfitted by a board of jjqkk, as it turned out the other player that took the huge pot by betting out when the second king hit on the river only had pocket 7's that he had to show because the sb went all in for less then the bb. I was slightly on tilt i guess when I played this hand and wanted to know how you all would have played it or even if you would have.
I was in the cutoff with KJ of diamonds. UTG raises all in for 2500, the blinds are 1,000, 2000. There are 4 limpers ahead of me! (this was very unusual, as almost all rounds were blind steals or heads up.) With that many callers and now being relatively short stacked, I decided to take a shot and called, the button called as well as the BB. We see the flop of 2d, 4d, 7c 7 handed. It is checked to me, I check, the button bets all in for 1000, the BB and one limper call, I raise and both fold leaving me against the 2 all in players (didn't think they would fold, but not to bad of a situation I thought.) Anyway no diamond fell, and niether did a k or j, the button took the 1000 side pot with pocket 9's and the utg that raised all in took the main with kq when he hit a Q on the river. My main question is, being short stacked to you take that shot or wait for more steal opportunities and not try and get into a confrontation?
I'm not a tournament expert. Just to toss it around though, I would have seen the flop, but would not have raised after the flop. I would want to see the turn as cheaply as possible, and if they let you draw at this point all the better.
I was watching the final table last night at a NL Hold'em tourney. (I had finished 10th, just missing the final table, arghhh.)
Blinds are 800-1500.
UTG goes all-in with 2300. All fold to the big blind. He has 6 or 7k chips and is 2nd or 3rd chip leader. BB calls and ends up winning the hand.
A few of us had a discussion after the hand trying to determine of what kind hand does BB have to have to call the all-in. I felt that with his chips, he should call unless he has a very bad hand.
In this case UTG has K10 and BB had KQ.
Ken
With these numbers, there is T4600 in the pot, which the BB can win by only calling T800 more, or almost 6:1 on the call. Even if the T800 were a big portion of his stack, the BB should call with anything. That is, once all fold to him, he need never look at his hand before putting up the extra T800. There are almost no matchups in HE where the dog is more than 6:1 against, and even when there are, you'd have to know the opponent's hand before you could intelligently fold.
Plus, in this spot, UTG has to play his present hand, or post 2/3 of his chips in the BB next hand. He certainly doesn't need much of a hand to choose going all-in now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I assume based on your response, you would do it at all tables?
Good luck if you play in the NL tournament tonight.
Ken
ohKanada wrote: >I assume based on your response, you would do it at >all tables?
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if I would make that call from the BB at any point in the tourney, with any number of players remaining? If that's what you're asking, the answer is yes. Getting 6:1 preflop against someone who even might be holding less than an overpair to your top card is automatic. I could imagine a scenario where I would fold, but it's unlikely to occur in the real world.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Since people seem to ask fairly regularly if a deal they made was fair, I've decided to write a computer program which will take everyone's chip counts and the prize values and output a fair deal (i.e. ignoring playing ability).
It's fairly trivial to do once I compute each person's chance of winning each place. However, doing so has ended up being more complicated than I expected. I believe I've figured out an algorithm which won't be too hard to code, but I'm wondering how anyone out there would do it.
So, for example, given five players and their chip counts, how would you go about finding a player's odds of coming in third. Or do you even have to? If anyone's actually interested I'd be happy to share my ideas.
Niels,
I've already written such a program. If you have any questions feel free to E-mail me on andy@pokersoft.co.uk. I recommend Mason's Gambling Theory and Other Topics which would help a lot.
Andy.
It's early on the first day of the final WSOP event and you have $11,000. You limp for $50 UTG with 7-7 and all fold around to a late position player who is already short-stacked with about $1200 left. He raises to $200, and all fold to you. Do you set him all-in, call, or fold? Assume you know he is just as likely to raise with hands such as K-Qo, or A-x suited as with a legitimate hand.
Hey "Oil", I like these questions.
Well, lessee: Folding's out & calling would be lame(he doesn't have enough chips left to get cute with trying to outplay him postflop and you can't get hurt much by dropping another $1150 here).
How much to raise? I'd actually like to eliminate him so I'm going to re-raise another $500 because I think he's more likely to go all-in than he would be to call all-in if I tap him.
How often would he raise here with a pair of 66 or below? Against all of his other hands that you mention, he's only slightly behind your pair, and if he does happen to have a higher pair, you're way behind. So, this seems to be the small favorite or big dog scenario. As such, why set the guy in now?
I would call the raise, hoping to bust the guy if I flop a set, or to win the pot on the flop if no big cards come.
Later, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
I finally have to ask: why are you Fossil Man?
Call. When the flop comes bet the size of the pot to put pressure on him no matter what flops.
I'm going to post my opinion before I read those below (since I want to see how I compare to the more experienced players in the group :)...
I think this situation really depends on where you feel you have a better chance of beating your opponent. Given that it's still early, and he still has a decent amount of chips for a $50 blind, it is unlikely that he is raising with garbage. He probably has paint or a pair bigger than 77...so your either a little in front or way behind. If you think he will lay down a hand like KQ for a big raise, I'd raise him 500-600 (about half his stack). If he is prone to call with this type of hand, I would just call and bet out on the flop (about the size of the pot) and if he calls, check fold the turn. If he raises and there are face cards on the flop...just fold. Best case would be flopping a set, and in which case he's gonna go broke. Just my opinion, and I really hope you guys tell me what you think :)
Pass.youve limped in trying to see a cheap flop and youre not going to get one.What can you gain here?
I see your point Padraig, but as an inexperienced NL player (fairely new to the game) I have a question. Is $150 out of $11,000 really that much to risk. I'm looking at this guys $1200 thinking it's all going to be mine if I flop a set, and that is assuming that you need the set to win. I am curious as to why you would advise against going after his chips, when you are probably a favorite in the hand? I would really appreciate your opinion :)
This is the crux of the problem. Is it really worth risking $1200 to bust someone at this early stage? The "5 and 10" rule of thumb pretty much says that you don't have a call ($150 call to put $1000 of his in jeopardy). At this early stage, aren't the chips you possess worth more than the chips you stand to gain, particularly since the upside is limited? Or, conversely, is it that YOUR downside is limited that makes playing a probable 50-50 proposition more attractive?
At this stage, you don't worry even the littlest bit about the relative value of chips (they are all worth the same at this point, or so close to the same that it's not a factor worth considering in making your decisions), nor do you worry about busting a player out. You should never knowingly make a -EV play just to try and eliminate somebody at this stage. You are so far from the money that your concern should be winning chips, not surviving and/or eliminating opponents.
If the play has +EV in terms of chips, then make it, whether it's folding now, calling now, or raising now. Which is best will depend upon this player, and this situation. My thought was to call based upon your original description, but there is something to be said for folding, or raising (but probably only if you think there's a good chance he'll fold now).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
First of all you might not be favourite in the hand.If you are youre probably just a small favourite but out of position.In my opinion everythings going quite nicely if you have 11000 at this stage but not so nicely that you can start doubling guys up.I can think of at least one guy from this years tournament who is sorry he married two sevens.
Alas, poor Jeff Shulman, we knew him well. I bet he's also sorry he married two kings...... :)
Of course, the differences btwn these two situations are that JS only had a ~3-2 lead on CF, not 10-1, and they were down to the final seven players(huge real money implications), not just starting the tourney.
{FWIW I think JS made a good read and call. He was a big favorite to go to the final table with an enormous chip lead. Had he won that hand, everyone would still be talking about how brilliantlly aggressive he played(now, were he European they'd've called him "wild")}
Why would you even bother to limp/fold UTG here? If one is so concerned about $150 or $1150 you might as well save the initial $50. This is reminiscint of Earl's post about limping with sixes and flopping bottom set with a player behind you of a couple months ago. Raise or fold pre-flop to avoid these situations in the first place.
This situation differs from the 6-6 scenario in that here the raiser is a very short stack who you cannot double through when you hit a set. At issue here is whether you should go to war with 7-7 versus a short-stack holding probable hands such as K-Q. Calling a $150 raise to win $10,000 is a quite different equation than where the raiser only has $1,000 left to win. My main point was whether the fight is even worth dealing with -- at this stage -- against that short stack in what appears to be a 50-50 proposition (one point no one made was the intangible value gained -- or lost!!! -- by having the table see you take a strong stand with 7-7).
Still, when the blinds are 25/50, I think the pre-flop raise is a much better play than a limp for so many reasons, not the least of which is that the pot has been sweetened enough to make it worth fighting the war after the flop. Conversely, it seems that as the blinds get much higher, a limp is sometimes better for the small-mid pairs.
Sorry Bill.I just dont think Id really want to get involved.This guy has lost ninety percent of his chips in the first two hours one way or another.He doesnt exactly seem to fit the profile of a guy id like to try to outplay at this point in time.Now if he had lots of chips and I could win without the best hand....As for those other two sevens I gather JS had won SEVEN out of nine hands previously.Why play one big pot if theyre going to let him win anyway
I believe that TJ, in his book at least, would reccomend folding 77 UTG to begin with at this stage. That's probably the best play here, but I always try to eliminate small stacks whenever I can(probably too often). This whole discussion, as well as Earl's previous thread, shows how important position is in NLHE, as well as stack size, aggressiveness, etc.
Padraig, I don't know how much you've ever followed American baseball, but there was a very famous player in the 1970's named Reggie Jackson(other than Muhammad Ali, he was probably the most famous American athlete of the era), who was a real aggressive, Bonetti/Huck type.
He's sixth all-time in career home runs, and top five(I think) in HR frequency, but he's also top five in career strikeouts and strikeout frequency. There is, however, the small matter of his five World Series championships(including one where he hit three HRs in the deciding game), millions in endorsements, and fame that has lasted twenty years after his retirement.
Nobody went to the bathroom when Reggie came to the plate. He was the Jordan/Tiger of his day(along with Ali, of course). How this might relate to NLHE tourney play is debatable, but...
"I always try to eliminate small stacks wherever I can". I can only echo what Greg said before - at this early stage of the biggest tournament in the world there is NO mathematical benefit in eliminating a small stack. Zero. You only think of your own EV here. Even in normal tournaments people overdo trying to knock others out when there are still 20 or more players in and it is completely unnecessary.
Andy.
Ive had the pleasure of being thrilled by Mr Jacksons play several times.Id hardly equate attacking this poor wounded bird with hitting a glorious home run.If you really want to knock this guy out PASS.Dont double him up just because hes there.Letting him choose the battlefield is careless.Anyway I think Reggie would like to play against a bigger stack.
Rob,
I'd fold too. You don't have the proper odds to flop a set and while some can argue the implied odds might ne there I don't see this as a valid argument. YOu may flop your set and not get any action. Plus every overcard on the flop is potentially scary. At this point its not worth busting someone out you should be concerned with accumulating chips. According to Robin this was a problem you had at the Lil's Triple Crown NLHE event when you called a guy down with a pair of 8's. And your problem here is similar to that one, while theres a good chance you are a small fav before the flop its hard to know where you at when the flop comes with overcards and if its scary you might have to fold the best hand. I'd leave these decisions to the experts. I feel for most players the most profitable move is to fold and see the next hand.
Oh by the way I still haven't left yet so I might see you on Sunday.
The more I read the more I agree, and I should be there sunday...thanx to everybody for the advice :)
P.S. I'll tell you about he 88 on sunday...I have never played worse in my life.
Just call and then try to bust him on the flop. If you do not flop a set then you can either bet or check, depending on the texture of the flop. If there are no high cards, I might consider betting the remaining 900$ your opponent has. If you are uncertain, check and see what he does. If he bets, and you believe him, fold! If he bets and you think he is full of it, call and try to pick off his bluff. Either way it is really not going to hurt you all that much, but you would rather not lose the chips if you do not have to.
Dave in Cali
Nobody likes to lose most of their chips in a tourney drawing, but then on the other hand there comes a point in time where "gambling" is correct in order to accumulate chips and hopefully reach the final table. I am playing 300-600 holdem and have ~2500 in chips. There are 6 tables left out of 32 with a $160,000 pool. There are 5 limpers and I have K8s in the cutoff seat. What do you do?
Have you looked to your left yet? It is critical that you not play this hand for 2 bets. If there is any noticeable chance that the button or blinds will raise, a fold is mandatory. If you are nearly 100% sure that they won't raise, then calling is marginally correct, IMO. However, it's close enough that I may be wrong.
You are putting up 1/8 of your stack with a drawing hand. Even worse, it's a drawing hand that may suck you in for a lot more. You could easily catch a flop like K93, and see everyone check to you on the flop. What do you do? You don't want to give a free card and see an A on the turn. Likewise, where someone with 89 might fold now, they won't if an 8 comes. Ditto for 34, or the blinds who might have any 1 pair + bad kicker hand. If you bet out, are you going to get check-raised by KQ, AK, or the like. Or, will someone who flopped a set wait for the turn to check-raise? Similarly, could someone with T9 check-raise now, and put you to the test, because they figure you're betting position on the flop, not a K.
Because of the difficulty of playing the hand well postflop, it is highly risky. Taking a lot of such risk is fine in a ring game where you can call down a potential bluffer in a marginal spot. Here, it is too much risk relative to a very small +EV (at best).
So, if you're sure no one will raise behind you preflop, and if you can read these players well postflop and outplay them (or at least not be outplayed by them), then calling is OK. If you're not sure of all this, I would fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
FOLD.
You are putting a considerable portion of your remaining chips into the pot with a marginal hand that you are not required to play. Plus you could get raised. You have no chance of stealing anything here, and you have a hand that is difficult to play well, especially with so few chips.
In a ring game I would call, but in a tournament I believe this is a clear fold. With your having so few chips, you should wait for an opportunity to steal the blinds or wait for a premium hand before risking all your stack.
If you flop a king here you are pretty much going to have to spend all your $$ and you are by no means a sure winner. If you flop a flush draw you will be hard pressed to fold but almost 2:1 to miss your flush and probably lose your entire stack.
The EV of this hand in a ring game might be clearly positive and worth playing. In a tournament, EV is calculated differently. Sure, you may have a positive expectation as far as chips go, but you are really not gaining much in the way of potential prize $$ by risking it all with 6 tables left. More likely you are making a mistake to play this hand in this spot. If you had 25,000 instead of 2,500 I would call and try to win a big pot. Since you are short stacked you must fold here or risk going bust and winning nothing.
Despite the fact that you need to play and win some chips, this is not the spot.
Dave in Cali
Fold. Plenty of time, plenty of chips (wish you had more certainly, but still...)
Problem with your hand is you probably have to call if you spike a king, which might end up being no good.
At a casino near me (Lucky Chances) they are currently having a tournament series, culminating in a $330 No Limit Hold'em event this Saturday, and a $530 event on Sunday.
For the past few days, I have been playing in satellites for these events (usually small satellites charge too much juice, but it's pretty reasonable this time).
The satellites cost $65 to enter, and they pay out $615 ($530 voucher plus $20 cash to the winner, and $65 cash to second place).
Each player starts with T200, and the blinds start at 10-15, with 15 minute rounds.
The problem I'm having is that the "style of play" in these satellites seems to be push in preflop (regardless of the blind size and strength of your hand) and hope for the best. When I try to play "conventional" no limit, someone just comes over the top of my 3x the big blind raise with a garbage hand (things like 10-6 of hearts, and hands like that).
So, when I try to just double through early, and push in with pocket Kings, I naturally get called by 93s and the flop comes 6-3-3. =).
My intent is not to whine about my bad luck, but rather to ask, what is the correct strategy for playing these types of satellites? I'm starting to think that the correct way to play would be to not play them at all. =).
Thanks for any help.
Max
If they're really pushing all-in with anything, then wait for a spot where you're the favorite and play with them. You think anybody here will tell you to not get it all in preflop with KK vs. 93o?
You'll get to see 20 or so hands for T50-70. Within that time frame, you'll get a pair or a good A most of the time. If you don't, hope you get to go in before you're too short-stacked. You will be in a highly volatile game, but one where you're the favorite. Enjoy the ride.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey Greg,
Thanks for the response. There is one thing I'm a little confused about, though.
What do you mean when you say "You'll get to see 20 or so hands for T50-70". Everyone starts the satellite with T200, and it seems like that's good for about one hand, if you're going to play it.
Thanks again.
Max
It will cost you that amount in blinds before actually playing a hand (3 rounds is ~ T50-75 in blinds).
two tables left. Limit holdem tournament. Money is paid to people at final table. I have t800 in chips and the large blind. blinds at 100 200. Button raises(has a lot of chips), small blind has less chips than button but many more than I do folds.
I call the raise, but fold on the flop because my only outs were to hit my k or q. I put the button on a pair or Ax because that is what he ususally had shown.
Did i make the correct move or should I have reraised and gone all in if I called all bets.
Good question. I think it is close either way. The button can have anything especially with you being short stacked. He will raise with virtually anything. I think you have two options:
1) Fold before the flop because you probably won't flop anything and you can't beat a pair or A rag and your opponent will bet irregardless of what comes making it very difficult for you to play your hand with any degree of confidence.
2) Call his raise and if an ace doesn't come either lead or check raise. You may have the best hand or your opponent if he doesn't flop anything may fold. If you fold on the flop you have the small blind next hand and you will have to commit all your chips. I like your chances better with 2 overcards and perhaps the best hand or a chance to make the best hand and a T1700 pot than a random hand in the small blind. You will have to double up twice from the small blind to get to T1600 assuming you are heads up.
There will be a UK world series equavalent in late summer and autumn called poker million. Hosted by Ladbrokes casino. First prize is a guaranteed £1,000,000 (about $1,500,000). Entry into final event is £6000.
Yeah, I was talking to a few guys in the UK about it last week. The satellites are gonna work in a sotr of wierd way if I understand them right.
I'd like to know a bit more about them before I comment.
I believe the tournament is scheduled for the Isle of Man and Robert Sangester has something to do with it. Sangester is a big time horse owner and ownes a casino on the Isle of Man (I believe).
I'd like more info on it if anyone has it.
Rounder,
Nice to see you back on-line. Have you read my post "Face to Face" below ? Looking forward to a European trip report.
The satellite set-up is not so much weird as downright bizarre. I feel it is set up more from a marketing POV than a practical playing one. They're pushing this "£1 million for £10" angle but frankly anyone who isn't good enough to back themselves with at least £100 has no chance anyway.
Several sites have the details including www.poker-in-the-uk.com and eppa.bigfoot.com . The most bizarre satellite is a £20 (not very) super satellite with multiple re-buys where you could win, wait for it, an entry into a £100 satellite.
Andy.
You didn't think all of your sabre rattling would amount to nothing, did you? I accept the challenge that you extended. I am not sure why you feel the need to have an IQ pissing contest with the readers of your forum, but I gladly accept. A couple of theories come to mind - a feeling of inadequacy, etc.
What form will our contest take? We could make it simple - notarized copies of professionally adminstered IQ tests could be evaluated by a third party, if you wish. I am open to suggestion, however.
Your offer of 50K (I am assuming US dollars) is also acceptable, but I am not sure why you aren't willing to wager more. Maybe your poker play is not as profitable as you would have us believe.
Remember, YOU extended the challenge. I accept. I look forward to discussing terms with you.
AF
Whats this nonsense all about and what relevance does it have to a tournament forum,?Goodbye.
This is the sort of crap that fills up the Internet Poker Forum and makes it totally unreadable. As opposed to this excellent and informative site.
i am new to the l.a. area and have heard tale of a medium-high stakes mensa poker game in the southland. i am a registered lifetime mensan from oregon, could someone please turn me on to the game.
Yeah he challenged me to a contest he knew I couldn't possibly participate in - making it over a lond period of time and in cities I didn't live in.
Can you say gas bag.
I am playing in a Limit Holdem Shootout tonight with an interesting structure.
10 tables, 10 players to a table. Blinds start at 5-10, limit 10-20, and double every 20 minutes.
Top two players from every table make the final two tables (and are some guaranteed some money).
Then, for the final two tables, the stacks are blinds are reset. Then (this is the really weird part) the top five players from the final two tables are combined to the final table, where the stacks and blinds are reset again, and the rounds go to 30 minutes.
So, there are some interesting strategy changes that need to be made. The first table shouldn't be that much different than a normal shootout (although obviously there are some changes that need to be made, as you really only need to survive to heads-up, instead of getting all the chips).
But, at the second to last table, you need only make the top five. I'm thinking that, assuming I make it to that point, I should tighten up pretty considerably, and play pretty conservitively.
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Thanks.
Max
Hi Max,
I know that it's too late for this advice to do you any good, but I thought I'd tell you how I approached this tourney and how I had to make mid course corrections.
My plan going in was to treat the first table like a 1 table satellite making the requisite strategy changes as we got close to the final two (i.e. tight early on, loosening quickly as the blinds increased). My intention was to not be one of the 2 shortest stacks as we got short handed (5 on down). When we were 5 handed, I was the third stack and caught a great flop against the big stack (my 55 to her 54, flop 654!) and was then the table leader. With four players I had half the chips and figured I could bully with impunity as everyone fought for 2nd. This was not to be. I fairly quickly got into a confrontation with the second stack (who shall remain nameless but his initials are EF) and we switched positions. OK, plan B. We lost one more and we were down to 3 when the most interesting hand of the tourney (for me) happened.
Short Stack (SS) was in the BB with 4 chips posting 2 of them. I have 7 chips on the button and EF in the SB has the rest. Before the deal I said to my self that I'd throw anything away and take my 50-50 chance of EF knocking out SS with random hands. I get AKs and go into think mode. I figure that I'm better than 50-50 against the SS if we're heads up. Worst case scenario is I get heads up with EF and SS doesn't enter. But knowing that EF knows my best bet is to fold anything, a raise should tell him I have a monster. I'm hoping that he'll fold thus enticing SS to call. EF seemed to be in sync with this thinking, but the SS did the unthinkable and didn't call (which I have to believe is a huge mistake.) He now has 2 chips in the small blind and I have 10 and we knocked him out on the following hand.
My plan at the 2nd table was to play extremely tight as you suggested with a small twist. I wanted to get up to around 700-800 and then sit on my chips, letting the small stacks fight it out. This is essentially what I did and made it to the final table.
A very interesting situation developed at the final table before the cards were in the air. A local proposed that if we split the final table money evenly, we would each get a little more than 3rd place money! Since we're all the same stack size at this point, I didn't think I had a better than 4 to 1 chance of coming in first or second, so this deal sounded pretty good to me. Unfortunatly we had one (again unnamed, but you know who you are :) holdout, but we did redistribute the cash with a $1000 saver for everyone. I was able to sneak into 4th for $1680 capping a very nice evening.
If a player acts differently than he would if he could see his opponents cards, according to the FTOP he has made a mistake.
As the eventual winner of the tournament I played in last night spiked a second jack on the river allowing his AJs to beat my KK, it occured to me that most if not all tournament winners make a mistake of this kind. In my case it was probably not a huge tactical mistake by my opponent, given the range of cards I could have held, but he would clearly have folded had he seen my cards.
Am I wrong in thinking that most tournament winners make mistakes and get lucky?
If I am correct, does it matter?
A better way of looking at that is to keep in mind the axiom that "no one ever won a poker tournament without having a little luck along the way". Limit tournaments have the highest luck factor, for one because more people on average take flops, and the "suck-along" factor pulls more hands to the river. When a hand like A-J wins in a NL tournament against K-K, it's often in the same scenario you faced -- late in the tourney, heads-up, big blinds, usually with an early all-in where a big Ace looks pretty strong.
Earl is right, no-one ever won a tournament without a little luck. I like to think of it like this - the fewer mistakes I make the less luck I need, and in the long run, when the luck evens out, the more tournaments I win.
Another point is that, as DS says in TTOP, calling (or raising) with a King-high straight flush when your opponent has a Royal Flush is a "mistake" under the theory but a player "surely cannot be accused of playing badly" if he does. Make sure you make this distinction properly, and make sure that you don't allow your opponent to draw you out with a "mistake" by slow-playing in the wrong situation. I'm not saying that you did in this case, and I'm sure you're aware of the distinction, but as ever my posts are for all to see and comment on.
Andy.
Thanks for comments - it was just an observation (and obviously a bit of a bad beat moan).
On another note, Andy - I am working in Aylesbury all next week - is it difficult to get to Luton from there?
Dave,
Geography's not my strong point but I don't think it's all that far, depending on the traffic. If you can make it, Thursday and Saturday nights are normally great value. This Thursday is a £200 HE freeze-out and Friday £100 Stud freeze-out if you like the bigger comps. Feel free to E-mail me if you'd like any more info.
Andy.
To be a winner in tournaments, I believe it takes:
Luck - everybody has some good and bad luck in tournaments. It's when they happen that makes the diference between winning or losing. There are some hands that no matter what you would have done, you would lose them. Sometimes, it happens when you're all-in and you get eliminated.
Skill - It's not just fate that you see the same people over and over making it to the money. There are key points in a tournament when you can out play your opponent and make a big diference.
Mistakes - everybody makes some mistakes. You have to minimize yours and capitalize on your opponent's. I believe this one is the most important.
The winner of a tournament on any given day will be the one who has all three of these things working together.
JohnnyD
Well stated Johnny - I might add it is the constant final table guys who "give them selves a chance" to get there. The guys who know when to gamble and when it is not a good idea to do so.
I break it down in 3 categories - Tournament strategy, poker skill and the run of the cards (luck).
I'd say each is as important as the other except luck if you have all the luck and none of the skill you will win and if you have none of the luck and all the skill you willl lose.
BUT the consistant winners will have the skills.
twenty nine players left at the $500 buy in Cal. State Poker Championship limit he event, blinds $500-$1000, limits $1K-2K. Twenty seven players get paid.
I am in the big blind, with a decent to large stack of approx. $14K (post posting) with approx. $350K in play. Folded around to the small blind (Hassan Habib, a well known player, and one of the nicest guys--just my quick impression--that you can imagine)he limps. He has approx. $10K or so in his stack, having come back from all-in, just recently (in this round?)I look down to see KcQs. CALL OR RAISE?
I call.
Flop comes down Q,J-x with a flush draw. Hassan checks, I bet, Hassan raises. RAISE, OR CALL, (FOLD??)?
I call.
Turn is an offsuit Jack. Hassan bets. RAISE, CALL, FOLD?
I call.
River completes the flush. Hassan bets. Again, I call.
Hassan is an experienced tournament player. If he calls in the small blind and checkraises on the flop you are drawing mighty thin. He has a real hand! He either has pocket aces, kings, QJ, or he flopped a set. On the turn I would fold. Why this late in the tournament with an average stack blow most of your chips when you don't have the best of it.
Bruce
He would possibly limp with almost anything, IF he felt that you would raise infrequently. Additionally, the only hands better than yours that he would limp with are AA, KK, and maybe QQ, as a trap. He likely wouldn't limp with hands like Ax or small pairs. Thus, most of the time, you have the best hand right now, and I would raise to try and win the 4K out there. My guess is he will fold at least 3/4 of the time. If he reraises, you can be highly confident of where he's at, and if he calls, he's likely got a good drawing hand, like suited connectors, and again you have some idea where he's at.
Just calling leaves a lot of guessing postflop. For example, in addition to really strong hands like QJ or a set, he could have Qx or Jx, for 2 pair. He also could be playing the flush or straight draws strongly. Finally, and I think that this is why you did right by calling him down, he could easily be holding Qy, where y is worse than your K and doesn't make 2 pair with the board. Also, if he did flop 2 pair with Qx, your kicker just came into play when the J paired on the board.
Calling him down is fine after the check-raise, despite the scary board. If he was a nut player, it would be different, but I've never heard him described as a nut player, but rather as an aggressive one.
Hope it worked out well for you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, your points make a lot of sense. I just can't imagine Hassan limping in with a piece of cheese. I just smell a rat with him limping esp. this late in the tourney.
Bruce
I understand your point about him limping with a piece of cheese hand. Yet, it depends upon what H thinks about our original poster. Some guys will defend with any decent hand, yet you can then push them off the pot pretty much everytime they miss the flop. If this is so, then why not limp with cheese and bet out? You have a better chance of winning with this strategy, and you lose less when he does hit the flop.
It's things like this that make it so apparent that there is no such thing as a "right" answer to these questions. The best replies tell you what issues are the most important to consider, not just that you should have called/folded/raised/etc.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Before the flop I figured that with a relatively smaller stack and almost in the money a strong tournament player would not want to risk getting involved in a big hand post flop without raising. I thought there was a tiny chance he had a monster, or two mediocre cards, and the only monster he would MAYBE limp with would be AA (even tinier chances of KK or possibly AKs)--but even then, raising would have been his best play at this point--if I throw it away, which I might have with my KQos at that point (not sure, I might raise back...) he can increase his stack by 30%!
I didn't raise because I figured he wouldn't fold to my raise, but I might be able to get him to give some action with a worse hand, which I didn't figure he would do if I raised.
On the flop therefore, when he check-raised, I put him on either a weak queen or Jack (most likely)--somewhere in the QTs to J8 suited range--with a slight chance of QJ, and still the lingering possibility of the AA--and smaller chances of bottom pair or a flush draw, a small chance also of nothing. I thought there was a strong chance that he thought that I was trying to pick the pot up, and wanted a fold, and that the check-raise also might have been his way of testing to see if I had a real hand and would raise back.
My plan at this point was--if a blank hit--to let him bet the turn, raise him there, and end it. I had induced enough action, I felt, and I thought that the chances were excellent that I had the best hand and that he would throw away most of the hands he could hold, and possibly even throw away the Aces or similar monster if he held that.
On the turn, pairing the jack did not make me happy. I thought the chances of my still having the best hand were reduced somewhat. I didn't see money in raising at that point, because I figured most of the hands he would throw away were hands that I could beat, and if he reraised I would probably have to pitch. I thought here briefly about folding, but if you induce action as I had been trying to do, your efforts are pretty much wasted if you toss your cards at the first sign of trouble.
On the river, I felt like I pretty much had to call, but of course the flush draw and the paired jack and the possibility he was trapping with a monster from the start made me feel a little sick. I still would have chips, but my dreams of taking down the big $80+K would have seemed more remote.
When I called, he told me he had a Queen, I showed my KQ, and took down the big pot. I asked him if he had QT, and he nodded, but I thought he might have been lying.
Who knows? Real nice guy though, I thought, even though I didn't talk that much to him.
I came in 5th and took home $10,000.
i am new to tournaments. going to play in my first at the orleans in july. question: why did you not get to see both of hassan's cards. he bet the river - you called?
thanks/vano
That's a good point. A lot of people (better, more experienced players than I) do the following in this situation. They say nothing, and wait for the guy to turn his hand over, then they show their hand. I blew it, because i never want to "slow-roll" anyone: i.e., give them a moment where they think they've won, then turn over the big hand. When he said that he had a queen, I knew I had him beat (if there is one hand no-one with a brain would limp along with in this spot, it would be A-Q)so I almost immediately spilled the beans.
Then, after that, what am I going to do? Say, "may I see that hand?" like a jerk? I should have said, rather than, "me too," pause, "king," I should have said "what's your kicker?" but I usually play ring games and try to focus on being a nice guy rather than getting every advantage. In a tournament situation, where many of your decisions are more critical than in a live game and knowledge of a player's style and the range of cards with which he will do certain things can be very valuable, I think you can foresake the nice guy act. And I should have.
I felt pretty certain that he had a mediocre queen, but not a garbage one, but judging by Badger's post, the San Francisco Busboy is also a possibility?
(no offense to the politically correct)
Who won the California State Poker Championship No-Limit event at Commerce Casino? ($1060 entry fee)
The people running the event kicked everybody watching the event out. They did it because some player complained that an onlooker standing behind him was speaking in a foreign language to a player in the seat next to him during the course of a hand.
They didn't actually kick us out, but they moved the rail 40 feet back from the two remaining tables. We were so far back that it was humorous, so everybody just left.
Dan
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
My success at winning or even getting close has been zero. All of the Omaha 8B satellites I played at the Carnivale of Poker and World Poker Open were failures. I always came in 4th or 5th place. When I was playing at the Carnivale of Poker this year, another experienced satellite player said that it's impossible to win the Omaha 8B satellites and told me that I should just stick with the limit and no-limit hold'em ones.
So, do any of the posters here have any success with the Omaha 8B satellites? Is there some strategy for playing these things or do I just have to get lucky to win.
The key element is time. Even the best dealers get out very few hands per 20-minute round, so you are going to be shooting dice much sooner than in any other type of satellite. In the NL satellites, you can just wait around for the maniacs to self-destruct and then get back into it with 1 or 2 hands. By contrast, in the O-8 satellites, you simply have to win every hand you play. *That* is the strategy adjustment, although you can increase your variance (and thus your chances of winning -- or LOSING) by doing more pre-flop raising than you would in a live game. Also in contrast to the NL satellites, it's much better in the O-8 to either report to the rail quick, or, hopefully, stay alive with a proportionally large stack instead of trying to coast into the late stages with an average stack.
Earl,
I think you're trying to tell me that if I'm feeling lucky to give it a shot (he he he). Anyway, thanks for the advice, I was hoping to get responses from others, but I decided to give it up and save my money for No-Limit satellites.
Good read. My win percentage is much higher in all other types of satellites than in the O-8, and I've experimented with various approaches to improve that, but nonetheless, in any game where you get fewer hands per time limit, there will be more luck involved.
As you get close to the end of the tournament, (let's say there are 4 tables left and they start paying the final 2 tables), how do handle the sitution where one player (Player A) goes all in on 4th street and 2 med stacks (B & C) are the only other players still left in the hand?
Is it correct for B & C to check it down regardless of whether B thinks he can beat C or vice versa? The logic being that B & C being both in the hand have a much better chance of having a better hand than the all in player at the showdown and thus knocking out A, pushing everyone closer to the money. Or is this incorrect logic?
What about at the final table or early in the tourney? Does that make a difference too?
What if B (or C) is the chip leader by a good amount? Is it correct for the chip leader to say screw it and try to win the side pot and take his chances at the showdown against the all-in?
Early in the tournament knocking out a player has no relevance. Even with 4 tables left knocking out a player is really not all that important. In your scenario if I was player B or C and I had a real hand after the flop I would play it strong and try to get as much value as possible. I certainly wouldn't bluff at the pot with an all in player with nothing. With 1 table left knocking out players become important. There is a big difference as you move up the final table.
Bruce
I agree with Bruce....don't bluff in this situation, but if you have a strong hand, try to accumulate a few more chips if you're pretty sure you're going to knock out the player anyway. The only time checking down makes sense in my opinion is when you're already in the money (or maybe one out of the money) and you're trying to move up the money ladder.
JohnnyD
On Wednesday I'll be travelling to Soaring Eagle Casino in Michigan to play in their monthly tournament, which happens to also be a TOC qualifier. I have played hold'em for some time and in "my opinion" I'm a good player. I have a tight style of play and it has served me well in 5/10, 10/20 games.
But this will be my first tournament and I would like some advice on what to expect and if my usual tight play would serve me well in a tournament. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for any input!
"... if my usual tight play would serve me well in a tournament." Probably not unless the deck runs over you.
I think there's too much to write on what to expect, so you might want to review a tournament book beforehand.
Tight play is fine, up to a point. Once you get short-handed, you have to be able to loosen up. Also, if the rest of the table is playing tight, you need to adjust and take advantage of the greater number of steal opportunities.
Be very conscious of the situation that you're in, not just the hand that you're holding. If you know that your opponent will fold anything less than top pair postflop, then you should probably be betting most flops. Your hand is very much secondary to the circumstances that you are in at any given time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two things mean a lot in tournaments that mean little in live games. These things are image and stack size.
You say you have a tight "style". In tournaments, you want a tight image, and even hand in hand out it is much more important in tournaments to get away from your more marginal holdings than in live games, but you do not want to play so tightly that you play weakly.
You should strive to develop a tight but AGGRESSIVE style. A tight but aggessive image is good in live games, but even better in tournaments, where chips are so precious that players who in a live game might be calling stations become in tournaments weak-tight. It's crucial to establish a tight but punishing-when-you-have-the-best-hand-image. You should strive to make your opponent believe that you are a nut-peddler, and that the best way to beat you is to play it smart and avoid you when you are in the pot--"this guy hasn't played a hand this entire round! no way my second pair is good..." or "no way am I going to bet this hand with HIM in the pot..."
It is easy to establish this tight but dangerous image: play very few hands, but when you do be prepared to give inordinate amounts of action. Because you often do wait you get premium hands, you often really will have the best of it on or before the flop. You will get called less often in a tournament because people don't care as much about winning the pot as they do about lasting longer than the guy next to them. This lack of calling courage means that if you play very few hands, and show very few hands, people will think that you only play good hands.
Image in general is much more important in tournaments, where people are more likely to stop and think for a minute than when you are playing for cash. In many of the more profitable cash games your biggest producers couldn't care less about who they are in the pot with, they only know what they have. You could have the tightest image in the world or be emptying your pockets on the table every half hour and they'd play exactly the same way.
The second thing that is not very important in live games but all-important (maybe the most crucial factor to consider) in tournaments is stack size. Think about this, and meditate on all of its implications: In a tournament, the more chips you have, the less each individual chip is worth, and the fewer chips you have, the more each individual chip is worth. Once you have thought hard about the implications of this fact, you are on your way to understanding tournament poker.
In a live game, someone with very few chips tends to get them all in very often. Mason Malmuth, in fact, has written an article about the advantages of being all in in a live game--look at one of his Poker Essays books for an essay in regards to the right amount of chips for which to buy into a cash game. Things are different in a tournament. In a tournament, once the rebuys have stopped, or if there are no rebuys, a person with very few chips (one to three bets worth, or less than a raised pots worth in no-or-pot limit) tends to want to nurse the chips and get them in in some fantasy "right spot"--waiting for two big cards, or one ace, or even a pair of threes--anywhere where he might feel he is a slight favorite or at least not a huge dog. A person with a great deal of chips, on the other hand, can abuse the table mercilessly, taking advantage of the small stacks who don't want to become no-stacks, and hear the humiliating cries of "seat open, table six, seat 4". A big stack can bully the medium stacks as well, who don't want to become small stacks, and be forced into a defensive posture.
Building a big stack gives you the freedom that everyone else at your table covets--you can throw chips at the pot with reckless abandon, whether you have a hand or not. People know this, and will react to your actions incorrectly.
Some people will shy away from you,even though you have a 9s7s, and the flop came down J 6 4 rainbow, because they are afraid that, even though they sense you are probably bluffing, you might have a big jack or a big draw and they know that you will bet the turn, and they just can't call with the pair of nines that they were hoping to steal the blinds with so they could nurse their medium stack through the next round.
At the same time, others will become resentful of your stack. They will get stubborn, and call your relentless betting--meanwhile they have Ace High and you have flopped a pair of sixes, but they know you are trying to bully them and will relentlessly call, finally standing up to the bully they didn't stand up to when they were kids.
Others will check behind you and give you a free ride, or check to you and allow you to take the free card you need to beat them, because they know that you could set them all in with a raise or two.
Poker offers few more genuine pleasures than that of having the biggest stack at the table in the later stages of a tournament, particularly if you are a sadist.
So: have a tight image, but not a tight "style." Try to take advantage of the situation when you have a lot of chips, and always keep your eye on the big stack before you play your hand. If the tall stack looks hungry, I would fold a lot of marginal holdings to his right, but if the tall stack looks passive, and content to wait it out and sit on his big stack, then you can operate with more freedom. But always keep your eye on the biggest stack that is not yours.
Thanks Chris for the info. It was really helpful.
Playing in a small tournament on Saturday.
Blinds are 25-50. Betting 50-100. I have 900 chips to start the hand.
I have A10 hearts in small blind and flop the flush. I check my flush, someone bets, I call and one other guy calls.
Turn is nothing. I check, other guy checks, original guy bets again. I check raise. Only original guy calls.
River is a 9 (pairs the board).
I bet, he raises. I call knowing I will see the boat ( and I do see the boat, he flopped 2 pair). I can't imagine he would re-raise me without the boat, but I have never played this particular player. It would be quite the raise with only the king high flush.
Three questions:
1) Bet or check the river? 2) Once I bet the river and was raised, do I call? 3) Without the boat, would you re-raise in his position?
Ken
Ken,
1) bet or check the ricer: I think this is an easy answer. Bet. There are a lot of hands he calls with, which you can bet (any flush, an overpair to the board, top pair with big kicker). On the other side I don´t think you can induce a bluff from a very weak hand. (Especially because you have the A of hearts in your hand, so he didn´t bet and miss the nut flush draw)
2) call when raised: I think, folding your hand wouldn´t have been a big mistake. (The A of hearts makes the difference again). What if he has a flush? He probably calls because he can beat and loose to lots of hands. Two pair is the same. A Flushdraw? No, because he probably wouldn´t have called with only the K of hearts.
3) No (see answer 2)
Regards
M.A.
What are some good books on tournament play? Mostly no-limit hold'em since this is the most popular. Thanks
NT
Does anybody really believe TJ REALLY read not alone wrote thios book.
I'd think that McEvoy and Dana Smith did the writing, but some of the more interesting parts of the book are TJs. It's not the most literate book in the world (even S&M have *that* disclaimer in their books), yet that also gives it a bit more credibility in my eyes. My guess is that TJ talked into a recorder for his contributions.
I don't think there is one real good book that covers it all. If you're interested in playing No-Limit Tournaments, I suggest that you get Brunson's SUPER/SYSTEM. You need to learn how the ring version of the game is played to start with. There is good discussion in this book on strategy and adjusting to the ante (or blinds). The ante adjustment is applicable to tournaments. Next, you will want to pick up T.J. Cloutier's book. He has some good advice on satellite play, besides tournament strategy. But, I consider this book to be written for "weak-tight" players so T.J. can take all your money when you play him in a tournament. I also recommend Bob Ciaffone's big bet book (I don't remember the title), and I recommend Ken Buntjer's The Secret To Winning Big. Then you will probably end up doing what I did and buy everyones book.
mah wrote
>>But, I consider this book to be written for "weak->>tight" players so T.J. can take all your money when >>you play him in a tournament.
I have been starting to feel this way recently also. Not just with Cloutiers book, I feel a lot of poker authors advise overly tight play but then don't seem to play like this themselves.
I can't think of any books that will tell you to raise or bluff with a piece of cheese under-the-gun, even though that might be called for in a given game or situation. But if a player knows how to play tight, they have a fundamental baseline to work from in order to build their own game. No book has "the answer" -- that comes from experience. From each book I've read in the last 25 years, I've used what fits my game, and then filed away for future reference that some players might be using what I don't.
Frankly, as much as I like several pieces of advice in the Cloutier/McEvoy NL book, if someone followed that book verbatim, they would rarely get to play a pot. But I think the book has to be taken in the context of surviving the first day of the main event. If you watch the 1998 WSOP, you will find that TJ gets eliminated with a hand that he clearly recommends not playing.
These guys are trying to "SELL" books 1st then if anyone gets better at poker well OK for them.
Have to take the best and leave the rest.
I disagree that TJ and Tom are avocating tight/weak tournament play in their championship PL/NL HE book.
Tight yes but not weak. I don't call mucking an AJ in the face of a raise from a good player out of position a weak move.
Do you?
No, but what about always checking AK when you miss the flop heads-up ? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure that's in there somewhere without having the book at hand.
Andy.
PS: Andy good to meet you at Luton - I was there the next Thurs and didn't see you - I was a bit suprised to see Mike Sexton there - He busted out right after the buy in period was over - I was out about 14th - struggle all the way - never had to rebuy and the live game was full it was late and I hav a 40 mile drive (on the wrong side of the road) so I left. Had to fight off all the hookers in the car park - but made it to the hotel ok.
Like I said Andy you hacve to pick and choose.
Say you do have AK you raise and get reraised.
flop comes Q 9 8 do you keep playing - I'm not sure I do.
Nice to hear that even Mike Sexton can get busted out in our fast-action games :-). The previous week, when we met, I managed to chop it three ways for my best score yet. If there had been any hookers in the car park that night I would at least have had the option of not fighting them off :-).
Did you make it to Paris ?
And regarding the AK, no I don't keep playing in that case, but when I raise with AK, get called and the flop comes ragged or with a small pair I will be firing again a lot of the time. I'm not going to nit-pick about the book now as I haven't got it to hand and anyway, as I said when we met, I've got a lot of benefit from the book too even if I wouldn't play exactly like it says in my local tournaments.
Andy.
I'll be doing a trip report soon - I will say the tournaments I plyed in the UK give loose play a whole new meaning. I managed a win on the 1st night and guess they were shooting at me after that - a few were pissed I won on my 1st go.
Oh well.
Ben,
I think Earl sums it up pretty well. Most tournaments for No-Limit Hold'em do not give you enough chips to "play it safe." In SUPER/SYSTEM Brunson tells you to adjust your game to the ante. Most of the better players I've seen play fast when the blinds are high in comparison to the amount of chips you get to start with. They take advantage of tight players in the early rounds to build their stacks and they risk going broke early. This is how John Bonetti played in the $500 No-Limit Hold'em event at the World Poker Open (I should know, I was sitting on his left, and Erik Seidel was on my right. Erik finally picked him off). If you play like T.J. recommends, you will be reporting to the rail in the $500.00 tournaments, like the Carnavale of Poker or World Poker Open after a few blind increases.
Yes, I am not saying advising a tight style of play is poor advice, of course it isn't. It would just be nice if some point along the way the inexperienced reader was made more aware that playing this way all the time will not win you any tournaments or even get you in the money.
Recently I was trawling through the archives and there was an article by Abdul Jalib where he discussed short handed play. After he posted a lengthy article MM responded basically implying it was to weak a strategy. Abdul responded agreeing\admitting and then told us how *HE* really plays, something he "had dare not say" in the orginal article partially because his opponents might "get a lock on him". Whatever reasons he had I do think this is just another example of a poker writer writing one way (too tight) and playing another (more loose aggressive).
B.
Agree with you - it is all about deception - I want the table to consider me tight to a point then disappoint them. I like to play semi-tight semi aggressive except when I don't.
I think you will find good heads up strategy in the HPFAP21C book. Their strategy is applicable to a normal blind structure. You can use this stategy as a base line and adjust your looseness or tightness based on your opponents actions.
When you have an increasing blind you will have to play even a larger percentage of hands than S&M recommend. The size of the blinds will determine how fast or how slow you can play. This is what Brunson refers to in SUPER/SYSTEM and he describes how fast you need to play based on the ante structure. He won the WSOP with ten-duece, but you need to take into account how high the blinds became. If you don't play you will be blinded out of the tournament. Or even worse you get short stacked and then everyone tries to steal from you. It's too complicated to explain in a paragraph. After you read these books, always think for yourself. Does what this guy wrote make logical sense?
I busted out in a small OM8 tournament at the Bicycle Club yesterday and I wondered how many of you would have done the same? Stakes: $150-300; & Blinds: $75 & $150. I had $1100 and the remaining seven players at the table had about an average of $1800.
I had the small blind with 2,3,6, Qs(suited). There was one caller and I completed the small blind bet to $150 "making three active players in the hand."
Flop came: 3s Jc Ks (with a spade flush draw) I led with the $150 bet hoping to win it there and now (probably a mistake for O8). The big blind called (two active players now). The turn was an eight hearts(offsuit). I checked and big blind bet $300. I called with a 2nd nut flush draw and a weak low draw "2-6" (lifesaver). The river was a 10s giving me a second nut flush. I bet $300 and was raised my remaining $100. The big blind had the nut flush: "As 7s" 8c Qh. I see my only out was to check after the flop and fold if somebody bet. I would have still had $950 and about six free hands before the next big blind. Do you think that I trapped myself by betting after the flop.
How would you have played the hand?(decisions are very critical in small tournaments when the stakes increase every 20 minutes). Best regards Carl
2,3,6, Qs(suited) is not a good hand, IMO. To top it, you're out of position for the whole rest of the hand and you're low on chips.
You're looking for an ace plus another low card or two, but not a two or three - and not even a six, to make a nut low or a nut low draw on the flop. You're looking for a pair of queens or AK or the suit in which you have the queen on the flop to have a draw for nut high.
Flop came: 3s Jc Ks (with second nut spade flush draw). Your low draw is poor (about a 25% chance of low at all and an even smaller chance that you'll win half the pot with your emergency 2-6 if there is a low). There is a good chance that (1) you won't hit the spade flush (it's almost 2 to 1 that you won't) and (2) if you do hit, there's a scary chance someone may have the nut flush (someone will have the nut flush and beat your second nut flush something like one time in four with that many players).
IMO you should have folded the hand before the flop, even though you had already posted half of the first bet. Your first mistake, IMO, was not folding before the flop.
After the flop you should check and then fold, IMO. Your second mistake was not folding after the flop.
Your third mistake was not checking and then folding on the turn.
I don't think you "trapped" yourself by betting after the flop, because you could still have gotten out on the turn. I think you wasted a bet after the flop.
I don't know how I would have played the hand, had I been there. I might have done the same foolish thing as you, but playing that way IMO would be playing on tilt.
Sorry to be so harsh, but you asked, and I presume you want it straight.
Buzz
I would have folded on the flop to a bet. To continue with the flush draw you need to know if your opponents would continue without an Ace. A lot of players will not bet unless they have the Ace for the flush draw. So, you were really drawing to a weak low and a questionable high. It's a clear fold to a bet on the flop.
For a hand like 2 3 6 Q you need to flop an Ace. Now, if you flopped the Ace of spades you would have had a better chance to win the flush draw and would have had a good low draw.
You elected to play a very marginal hand at best. I think after the flop in a short handed situation it is very difficult to get off the hand. Your draw is not that bad on the flop ( 2nd nut high ). Plus you have a backdoor low even though it is a lousy one to add some equity. Unfortunately you were up against the nuts. Had you hit your low and then bet it you may have been able to skoop the entire pot.
Bruce
Bruce - The primary reason Carl's flush draw after the flop is bad (IMO) is because only 360 (out of a possible 990) two card combinations make a spade flush. A lessor evil here (IMO) is that Carl has only the second nut flush draw. As it turns out, Carl was done in by the lessor of two evils. :-)
After the flop 160 (again out of a possible 990) two card combinations make Carl a low. None of these are the nut low. The other 830 two card combinations don't make a low for Carl, although some of them may make a low for someone else. You can't like those odds for low in a ring game, let alone a tournament. I'll agree with you that the 2-6 adds some equity to Carl's hand - but not much.
After the flop one two card combination (3-3) makes quads for Carl, three two card combinations (Q-Q) make a probably winning full house for Carl, and one two card combination (As-Ks) makes a winning flush for Carl. That's 5 good two card combinations. 449 two card combinations make Carl a second rate hand on the river. The remaining 536 two card combinations leave Carl the choice of trying to bluff his way through the hand or folding on the river.
I agree with you that getting off the hand after the flop is difficult. Even so, it seems clear to me that getting off the hand after the flop is the correct decision.
highest regards,
Buzz
My question is what's the likelyhood in a three handed pot that you are up against the nuts when you have the second nut draw? It probably is a lot higher than I think it is. If so folding on the flop certainly becomes a much better play.
Bruce
Bruce - Depends on if you started with 9 players or 3 players.
Think of it this way. If you deal out three Omaha hands (twelve cards) at random, don't you expect to have maybe one ace amongst the twelve cards? If you deal out eight or nine Omaha hands, don't you expect, on the average, to see two or three aces amongst the thirty two or thirty six cards?
If you are dealt an ace, the probability of none of your other three cards being the same suit as your ace is (39*38*35)/(51*50*49) = 0.44. Thus the odds of your ace being suited are 56 to 44. In other words, it's more likely than not, if you are dealt an ace in Omaha, that the ace is suited. Similarly, it's more likely than not that your opponent's aces are suited aces. In Carl's example, chances are one or two of his opponents have been dealt suited aces.
Who is likely to stay after the flop in Carl's example? Maybe someone with a set or two pair, or maybe someone with the nut flush draw.
That's part of the reason why everybody advises you to not draw to the second nut flush.
Some (most?) players usually see the flop (rightly or wrongly) with suited aces. If you started with only three opponents, then it's about even money that you're up against a suited ace. However if you started against seven or eight opponents, it's likely that at least one of your opponents has a suited ace. Thus in Carl's example, someone is likely to have a suited ace. I would have suspected the one non-blind player who voluntarily saw the flop to have a suited ace. Maybe he did have one; Carl didn't say. (We do know the big blind had a suited ace).
If you stick your hand in a rattlesnake's den, isn't there an excellent chance you'll be up against a rattlesnake's fangs? In Carl's example isn't there an excellent chance he is up against the nut flush?
(Of course I agree with you, Chris Nichelson and Steve Badger that Carl should have folded his junk hand before the flop).
Buzz
Buzz,
Thanks for the excellent response. I occasionaly will play Omaha, but I have a hold-em mentality which can be very quite dangerous.
Bruce
When you don't hit an Ace or a straight on the flop (and even if you did hit most of the straights you could make with that hand) you should check and fold.
The hand is unplayable anywhere but from your position in a tournament, i think, and maybe even from there. That $75 in another spot turns into $150, or 112. I would not play that hand in most live games, either.
Reply by Carl_William_James -- to my original post: "OM8 tournmn't - what would U do?"
I want to sincerely thank: (1)Buzz ; (2) mah; (3)bruce; (4) again Buzz; and (5)Chris Nichelson on for their expert, pertinent and very helpful replies to my almost rhetorical question. I think your quick responses will sharpen my mind for future tournaments.
I think my big mistake was trying to buy the pot after the flop with a small ($150) bet; after this flop bet being called I felt I had to call after the turn because I had a weak low draw and 2nd nut flush draw.
That's possibly true. If you had checked and it had been checked around, you might not have lost too much money to it, but on the river, you would have lost the three hundred at least, assuming you didn't bet your flush, or worse if you did.
Your chip position was not that bad (for a tournament situation), so I wouldn't gamble with the second nuts until you have a mountain of chips or a molehill of chips.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger, you said,"Your biggest mistake was calling a non-heads-up pot before the flop with garbage. The other mistakes pale in comparison."
He's getting 5-to-1 odds to call how can that be such a big mistake if he gets a good flop to it? If he does not, he can throw it away. He's far away from first place, I thought this would be a good opportunity to see a flop.
Please give me your expert analysis. Thanks in advance.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Bruce - I didn't answer your question. If Carl had two spades and there were two spades on the flop, then with seven original opponents the probability that one of his original opponents started with the suited ace of spades, expressed as a percentage is approximately 25 per cent.
I used (5040+1008+56)/148995 along the way to get the answer.
With two original opponents (which he didn't have) the answer would be approximately 8 percent.
Buzz
Hi,
I see the Orleans holds a weekly sunday night Hold'em tournament for $120. I am going to Las Vegas in the fall and I am wondering if this runs year around. Also wondering how many players normally play and the prizes?
Thanks, Ken
Runs year round...except during the Orleans Open. I've seen as few as 8 tables and as many as 14 tables. First place probably averages ~$7,000 plus a paid entry to the TOC.
JohnnyD
I was playing in a NL HE tournament and had made the last table. There were 7 players remaining 4 with 4000+ chips, 3 with ~1000 chips. Only the final 5 positions paid. Blinds were 100 200. I was dealt pocket 7's 2nd from the button. All had folded to me.
I was short stacked, so I considered folding to try and limp into the money, but I was pretty sure I had the best hand pre-flop. I went all in for 1200, and the button called with 1/4 of his remaining chips. Was this the right play...
Results... He called me with A-10o, and flopped the Ace. He turned the 10 and I ended up losing. After the hand I thought I should have mucked it, but I guess that was after I saw the result.
What should I have done?
Derrick
That's quite a close one. As usual it depends. With it only costing 300 a round at the moment and you having 1200, you probably have time to find a better spot so I might have been tempted to fold. Note that I am not trying to limp into the money but just wait until I have a better chance of doubling up.
Given that you did play though you did the right thing by going all-in.
Andy.
I think some more information would be valuable:
1-How much did the various positions pay? 2-How much had you invested already? 3-Were any of the small stacks poor or loosey goosey type players? 4-How well did you feel that you played against the rest of the field? 5-How loose/tight were the blinds and what size stacks?
Depending on the answers to a lot of these questions, you might have wanted to fold, raise, or just limp even (least likely here I think, but sometimes, late in the game like this, and in no-limit especially, a limp is scarier than a raise.)
I will be in Biloxi-Gulfport next week and will play in my first tournament while there. Has anyone played the Tuesday tourney at the Biloxi Grand? Can you give any info on structure, competition and strategy? Thanks...John B
The Tuesday tournament at the grand is a 5 dollar buy in wich gives you T200 in chips. You can rebuy for $20 up until the break wich gives you T500 in chips. At the break you can make an add on for $50 wich gives you 3500 in chips, which unfortunately makes the add-on almost necessary. The Tuesday tournament at Biloxi isn't the best one to go to, as it doesn't attract enough people to make the 55 plus your going to invest worth it, as first place usually only brings in 600 and that is if there is no deal. The wednesday freeroll at the Gulfport grand, and friday tournament at the Biloxi grand are much better tournaments for your money.
Doug
Let's say you are an above average (but not great) player who routinely plays in tournaments. What would be an acceptable win ratio? In other words, how many times should you finish 4th or better in 100 tournaments? How about 10th or better? How about the top third? I am talking about big tournaments with a hundred or so entries.
My friends are saying I'm wasting my money, that I should stick to the ring games, but I think it is a matter of time. I sure would like to get a feel for what defines a succesful tournament player besides the obvious goal of making money.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
You ought to be getting in the money about 20-30% of the time. And winning 10%-20% of the time you "get there". Winning being, getting some portion of 1st place money.
Keep good records and if you are a winning player in live games keep it up - I made the mistake of concentrating on tournaments - when I hit a slump it affected my income.
Slumps come and go in tournaments - I believe it is due to poor play or being burned out - but live games slumps are less obvious but do occure.
I suggest a schedule of both.
Phil Helmuth went what, 3 years without winning a tournament? Fluctuations in ring games can be big - I think you could be the best tournament player in the world, play 25 tournaments a year (100 + entries) and possibly go 3 to 6 years without winning.
OK maybe there are some anomolies like Phil but he did cash in a lot of them - I don't consider a big tournament one with the numbers over 100 I have played in lots of them - the buy in is the important seperator not the sheer numbers -
Rounder, good to see you back in the states, even though it might not be the state you want to be in.
I went back through my records, and over the past 50 tournaments where the entry fee is $100 or more, I have been making it to the final table in about 15% of them. Without looking at my records I would have thought it was more. But even with only a 15%, I'm still way "+" over that period of time.
JohnnyD
Johnny,
Your % is sure to improve now that we aren't bashing each other around any more. :-)
Hey are you gonna be at the Orleans and are you traveling to Chi town in the future.
Mike
Rounder...I'll probably be at the Orleans for at least some events, but not sure which yet. I'm playing in Casino Arizona's $40,000 freeroll on July 8, which is the same day as the opening event of the Orleans Open. I might be there the second weekend. And I most likely will play in the TOC, so I might come in early and play in the last two big events of the OO.
JohnnyD
And Johnny D is playing hands like 9-5. Get that one out of there and your percentage will go up. Hey John, I hope your enjoying Arizona. I've got a 5 month old boy so I hardly ever post anymore and just read them when I get the chance.
Russ in H-town
Russ....good to hear from you. Congrats on the kid. You tought him how to play poker yet? You're probably use playing cards for flash cards to teach him his numbers.
Take a look at my personal poker website at www.geocities.com/jd8336
JohnnyD
Im 27 for 59 currently, in the money, with 9 1-3 finishes. Winnings about $5000- $2400 or so in entry fees.
I'm thinking about going down to foxwoods for their saturday hold em tournament. Has anyone here played in this tourney? If so, could you please tell me if they usually get over a hundred people. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it for to drive down.
Thanks for any responses.
Does anyone know if more people play at Mohegan than Foxwoods. Also, is the Saturday tournament at Mohegan no limit or limit?
Any responses would be appreciated.
Limit both in FW and MS.
Both games are similar
I think that FW has better Poker room and tournament management.
FW and MS Sat. limit HE tourneys both usually 80-100 players. FW is cheaper -- $20 to get in, (1) $10 opt. rebuy. MS $20 or $25 to get in, (1) $15 rebuy. I agree with CTPlayer, FW is a more pleasant place to play -- but then, I haven't been to Mohegan since last October. Good luck if you do play! Kate
BOTH TOURNEYS ARE PROFITABLE SO THEY ARE BOTH WORTH THE TRIP. PLUS THE SIDE ACTION IS VERY GOOD CONSIDERING SO MANY PLAYERS THINK THEY ARE GREAT. HA HA HA
played in Foxwoods tourney, pretty good turn out
would have done better with a full nights sleep though
I was recently at ten players left in a cal. tournament "no-limit hold'em" $22,000.00 first place prize. I was 100.00 behind the chip leader, both of us with one fifth of the chips left. From late position the chip leader raises my 2000.00 big blind. He puts in 10,000.00 to go. (He has been unrelentingly aggressive the whole tournament). I put him on a med. suited hand, I look down and find AJ offsuit. Without hesitation I go all in for 40,000.00. He is shocked and deliberates for several minutes. He calls me for personal reasons with QJ suited ( My ace is his suit.) Needless to say his Queen arrives on the river, and I am knocked out. Two questions; Is this a bad move?, What are the odds on that. Anyone know
He made a really bad call here and got lucky.
He was drawing dead to the Q (not counting the flush which was 16/1) He had a 3 or (6% pre flop) outter and was dominated by your hand.
Not the 1st time the best hand lost.
I must say I really hate calling raises with a hand with a J in it - but here I think you probably played it OK. I don't get the personal reasons thing - I find it is best to keep it professional and let the personal thing work itself out elsewhere.
Same basic thing happened to me. A tightish non-aggressive player with the same size stack as me makes a hefty raise (1/4 stack). I go all in with AKo. He thinks and thinks and calls with AQo.
Flop is AxxQx
What gripes, is that I know HE knew he was beat when I went all in but he called anyway.
I'd win every time.
:-)
Although you read him right and had him dominated pretty well here, a couple of considerations would make you want to play differently:
1-he's the only player who could get lucky and put you out of the tournament, and by mucking here, you encourage him to expose himself to these kinds of bad plays later on at the final table when chips become more valuable to you. 2-he might have been out of line with an underpair, in which case you are in fact a slight dog, and he could have been just as out of line for raising. 3-you could call and steal later in the hand. In fact a call from your pre-flop might have scared him into checking on the flop so you could steal on the turn, or you could just move in once the flop came.
I think you played it marginally badly, and he played like a complete moron and got lucky. I could be slightly wrong, and you played it marginally well, and he played like a half-wit (rather than a complete moron) but in certain late stages of the tournament you want to avoid big stacks if you can, and should favor that way in your decision making.
no-limit tourney. All fold to blinds. SB calls BB. BB raises moderately, SB goes all-in with more chips than BB has total. The BB puts more chips out there with obvious intention to go call all-in but fails to grab all of his chips. A significant portion are left behind WHICH NOBODY SEES.
So, the SB has all his chips in play. The BB calls the all in with fewer chips and mistakenly leaves chips behind.
The dealer says 'turn them up' to which they comply and lays the flop, turn and river. The BB wins. But again, he didn't have all of his chips out in front and even if he did could not cover the SB all-in.
The un-bet chips are now discovered. The floor is called. There is much finger pointing - dealer says player hid his chips; player says dealer said to 'turn them up'.
The floor decides:
Since the BB won the board, he can take the amount of chips from SB that he covered. The SB gets to keep what was not coverered by the BB even though they both thought they went all-in (this was never contested by either player).
I thought in a case like this where betting was incomplete and the flop was PREMATURE, the flop must come back, reshuffle, reflop etc. The losing SB player may not have wanted this however because the BB had the better starting hand. He may not have wanted to replay the flop with more of his chips in play.
Once the call has been made, if the BB has less chips than the SB bet, all of his/her chips are in the pot. The dealer should have announced "call" (in reference to the BB), before announcing "turn 'em up". The BB would double through as if all the chips were in the pot. Actions that are verbal are binding. How can the BB be allowed to call less than the full bet?
I'll try to be succinct in this report - As most of you know I get to the point and will not elaborate much.
Arrived at Heathrow AP on June 12th about 10pm London time. Our friends were there to pick us up and drop us at the Hotel and we crashed most of the night - next day Tues the 13th I called the casinos I wanted to play in and asked them to fax me Membership applications so I could join and meet the 24 hour requirement as you must be a member to play.
OK it's Wed. the 14th. Reading casino, I enter a 20 pound ($32) buy in multi rebuys for 1st 90 min. Here is the catch you can only rebuy if you are on felt and there is no add on at the end. Some at my table rebought (they refer to it as reentering) 10 or more times.
You pay your entry fee and just before the tournament starts usually 10 to 15 min late you pick out a number which corresponds to a table and seat - the tables are 6 7 or 8 handed - this night we had 36 players so it was a combo of 6 6 handed tables - some effort was taken to fill tables and keep them even as players dropped out. Blinds were unusual too there were two blinds of equal value we start 25 25 pot limit and the dealer delt, guy to the left shuffeled and the guy to the right of the dealer cut. Dealer and guy to the left were the blinds. This was hard for me to get used to, no "button" to work around I actually mucked a couple of hands I would have seen a free flop on accidently with my blind in - jet lag and confusion I guess. Didn't do it after the 1st night.
Of course no one dropped out during the rebuy period and the play was the loosest I have ever seen.
Now, we were playing short handed all the time so playing to tight was a problem I was having but these guys and very few women were calling raises with 53o.
I caught on petty quick and played tighter than the rest but looser than my usual self it seemed to work but my mucking a lot of hands was putting some on tilt they were nagging me to play more saying you can't get AA every hand I was able to use this to my advantage.
Anyway I made the final table of 8 players 2nd lowest chip leader I had 4,000 there was this guy with 2,000 and the rest had fro 8,000 to 24,000 - with in a circuit I had 18,000 and was chip leader. Like NL HE PL gives you the ability to grow the stack real fast.
As an aside - at the final table the blinds change and revert to 500 I think we were at the 2000 level when we broke for the final table. Most of the maniacs were out by now and the final table was comprised of pretty good players they had me as a really tight guy and I was able to use this to steal a lot of blinds out of position and even came over the top with nothing to steal some nice pots it was great. No breaks until the final table. I managed to chop first and 2nd place money with the a guy I had played in Vegas with - He was the chip leader when we started the final table and 2 to my left and we gave each other a hard time but had a drink afterward A nice guy and good player.
As a result of this win and some great wins at Royal Ascot Races I never had to cash a travelers check the rest of the trip.
I played 3 more tournaments at Reading and 2 at Luton where I met Mike Sexton and our own Andy Ward. Mike bowed out right after the rebuy period and I understand Andy chopped a 5 way or so that night (Cheers Andy) - never scored again although usually busted out just short of the final table just needed that one hand to get me over the top usually busted out by getting out drawn - well that's poker. I did bust out a few times in the blind in an unraised pot and hit top pair no kicker eg:9-2 flop 9 - 5 - 6. who played 9 7 anyway.
Anyway I had a great time, dinners and (tooooo many) drinks with old friends when I wasn't playing poker or at the track.
It was a vacation for my wife but I did what I usually do - WHAT EVER I WANT :-)
As for the British players some are very very good some are very very bad and the rest are in the middle somewhere (like the rest of the poker world). I think if I were there full time I'd cash in - wanted to play in cash games but with the tournaments starting at 9pm I usually didn't get done until after 1am and had at least a 40+ mile trip back to the Hotel - on the wrong side of the road.
I still love England and we are not seroiusly looking for a flat in Berkshire so we can spend more time there I want to play a lot more poker there and on the Continent.
Only regret I have is not making it to Paris for the Summer tournament on the 18th but dear friends invited up to their home for a BBQ and I couldn't say no.
All in all it was great and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to go the UK and play some POKER.
Cheers
Thanks for the report, it's always good to hear how it looks "from the outside". I can confirm that many of your observations are very accurate, especially players nagging you to loosen up - I just smile at them nowadays :-). Hope to see you again soon on whichever side of the pond.
Andy.
One very annoying thing I found was the propensity of some players looking at "what might have been" if a call were made.
I asked a few times for the other players not to go through the deck to see what they might have gotten if they called - a few liked to pick through the muck. I put a quick stop to that - the rua rabbit hunting continued.
OH and no tipping of dealers allowed I offered to toke the dealer of the final table (the only time you get a professional dealer) 40 pounds and he couldn't touch it. It's the law you know.
I decided to repost this up here so you can find it.
IF (and big IF) I were to have a mental lapse :-) and find myself in your situation with a high % of my chips in a hand and I were to see the A8s I most certainly would have called if I could I would have raised after seeing his hand and put HIM on the spot. No choice, I am committed to the pot (in Most casinos in America his hand would have been killed - but you are not in America are you) and I see only one over card I like my chance with a hand like Q9s. Glad you won the hand and calling a raise with Q9s in Luton is considered pretty good poker but it is not for me.
I think that's fine and agreed in the original thread that the first call was suspect - although it is a definite call if you are last to act. The whole key is that the all-in raiser is making a desperation play and does not need to be very strong at all.
My Q9s is going straight in the muck if the raiser has any significant chips left after the raise. It's a big part of my edge that people will call me with this kind of hand. Except, for lovers of poetic justice, when my KK gets run down by Q9s a week later :-).
Andy.
Hand 1. PL HE I am last to act. UTG (very loose) raised the pot making it 400 to go fair player but erratic at times re-raises makes it 600 to me. I have 33 and 2800 in chips.
Hand 2 - I am in an unraised blind with 23s - UTG is just calling other blind checks. 3 in the hand. Flop is 2QQ - I think the guy likes the flop and he makes a small bet. I make a small raise and he just calls.
Heads up now. Turn is 2. board is not 2QQ2 I have a boat and he checks. I make a pot sized bet of 450 he re-raises pot.
Hand 3. I have AJ loose semi drunk woman has called the blinds I raise the pot all fold woman raises me and will get me all in.
3 hands what to do.
Hand 1: You say, one makes it 400 the next guy makes it 600, and you only have 2800? Fold and save your money. The only way you can win is if you flop a set. You're likely up against overcards or a higher pair.
Hand 2: Tricky. Since, you had the blind and didn't raise preflop he may think you have a duece. Fold to the raise on the turn. I would think it would be very bold of him to raise on the turn without a queen.
Hand 3: Is she aware of your tight play. Then you may want to fold. A reraise usually means a big hand.
Before I look at mah's answer :
1) Clear fold.
2) You're in trouble. I would probably have folded the flop. There are two things about this hand which have cost me in the past that set off alarm-bells for me - being in an unraised pot and pairing the odd card when there is a pair on board. Seeing as you're here on the turn though you might have got lucky and have made a split pot.
3) Depends. How much has this woman been re-raising ? Even in the UK loose players won't do this very often especially if they see the raiser as tight (is she sober enough to know how tight you are :-)). Last night a guy on my left was raising 2/3 of hands or more pre-flop, but he didn't re-raise once. After the buy-ins I raise in the cut-off seat with AJ (all folded to me), he re-raises, I fold and he shows me KK. All the same if you are now very short-stacked you might have to call.
Common theme here is, while the play is very loose, I still don't like to play back to a raise unless the raiser is all-in or close to it or it's a small (10% or less) proportion of _both_ our stacks and I have a pair or something like that which I can release easily when it misses. Exploit the loose players when they call your raise, not the other way round.
Andy.
Hand 1 - I would have called any bet by the 1st guy who was playing all the hands like AA and bluffing to much. But the 2nd guy gave me reason to muck the 33. Hands were 53o by the 1st and 54s by the 2nd (I said they were loose) and we were out of the rebuy period. BTW the 33 would have won but I don't consider it a mistake.
Hand 2 - I muck and he shows a Q I show a 2 we both knew what theother had.
Hand 3 - a real doozie I had the AJ she had QJs my A is the same suit. Q hits the river and I am out.
I found a lot the Brits unable to muck any suited cards specially if they were coupled like the 54s. They would go down in flames with AK AQ when they missed the flop.
I didn't read your post in reply as I assume it gives us more details.
I'd like to point out something about Hand 1. You did not mention how many chips your opponent had. If your opponent has a lot of chips go ahead and call because you could double up for a mere extra 200. If your opponent has few chips left put them all in as you won't have to face any more betting. If you can't win enough money after the flop when flopping a set and your opponent has some chips left go ahead and fold. However, I would think that you would be calling this 200 most of the time.
Number 2 is a hand I wouldn't even mess with. Even if your opponent doesn't have a Q your pair of 2's is very vulnerable after the flop.
In number 3 it's close but I would think a fold is right.
1 passobvious 2More obvious3pass
This subject has been discussed on rgp but I thought I would post here to see what this group thinks.
I make deals sometimes. Sometimes I don't. The reasons vary. Sometimes I make deals because the blinds are too high. Sometimes I make deals because of the competition. Sometimes I make deals because of how I stand in chip count.
Sometimes I refuse deals because the amount of money I get guaranteed is not worth it. I would rather risk a little to make lots more.
Some people make deals because they think it's the "nice" thing to do. Some people start talking about deals as soon as the final table is formed.
Here's my bottom line....I never bring up the subject. I'll always prefer to continue playing. I believe I should only take a deal if it's good for me. Not that it's fair to everyone, but favorable to me. I think I'm a pretty good heads up player, but nobody ever wants to go that far in a tournament.
And finally, I believe it should be a total choice. I really resent the type of treatment you get when you refuse a deal.
I wonder if anybody has any thoughts on this and ideas of how to handle the situation where you are the one that doesn't want the deal.
JohnnyD
I agree with your line of never bringing it up and preferring to play. As for the verbals, it happens at the poker table, respect is often in short supply. Be firm but polite and if anyone starts name-calling try to just ignore them which looks a lot stronger than joining in.
Andy.
I am refusing full chops with 3 or more players. I will however chop some of the money but want to "play it out" to heads up for the rest.
I went a long time playing tournaments never getting heads up and when it came time to do the heads up thing I was not as sure of myself as I shoud have been due to inexperience.
Playing in the bigger tournaments in LA Reno and Vegas I found the players not interested in chopping as much as in Arizona my home state at the time. So now I want to keep a portion of the money to play out heads up - if soneone don't like it I don't do the chop.
I would prefer to have the prize money distributed a bit more evenly and I believe this would cut down the chop aspect a bunch.
i was talking to a friend about deals and he said sometimes people do not honor deals. their word is no good. his point was about who gets points,trophies, or jackets. he said two times this happened. for new or future winners ,how do you enforce deals?
The tournament director usually does that - they are made aware of the deal and he/she enforces it.
I have made deals against the house rules. And at that point we were on our honor.
These deals were for points vs dollars.
I had eneough points and agereed to give up the points for the 1st place money.
TD was none the wiser but I had to rely on the other guy to give me the money I was due he did and we were both happy buy if a guy renigs on a deal make sure everyone knows about it and he might be ruined in the future a real punishment.
I have used a deal making formula which has almost universally been happily accepted and has felt fair to all concerned. It usually works best with three people left. The total prize money is added up for first, second & third (for example: say there is a total of $6,600). An agreed upon amount (more than third place) is taken and awarded to each player (in this example, say $1,200 each) The remaining amount, $3,000 (3 x $1,200 = $3,600 subtracted from $6,600 = $3,000) is divided into six parts ($3,000 –: 6 = $500) 1st gets 3 shares, 2nd gets two shares, 3rd gets one share. Play continues for 1st, 2nd, 3rd. First place would get: $2,700 (3 x $500 = $1500 + $1,200) Second gets: $2,000 (2 x $500 + $1,200) Third gets: $1,700 (1 x $500 + $1,200)
This is an easy formula to use. It's easily understood even by inexperienced players and gives enough of a difference between the places to keep the players edges up. I've used and seen it used a number of times with no complaints or problems. I hope its usefull to y'all as you make it to the final tables.
That's some good math information, but it totally misses my point. Sometimes I look around the table and think I can win and don't want a deal. Other times I don't like my situation and do want a deal. The times I want a deal, I am pretty good at negotiating. So I don't need help in that area.
I'm more talking about the abuse you get when you don't want to make the deal.
JohnnyD
Cire,
I would be glad to propose this deal if I was behind in chips, but if I'm the chip leader, forgetaboutit. This deal is only a "fair" deal if the chips are even.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would never refuse a deal, in the sense of saying I won't deal. What I will do instead is propose a different deal, one where I benefit.
If someone proposes a deal and you don't like it, simply tell them it isn't enough. They may bitch and moan, but that's their problem. Just calmly assert that you think your chips are worth $X and that's what it will take for you to deal right now. I also will add in that if I lose a few chips, my price goes down, but if I win some more, it goes up. In other words, just let them know that you're looking at your stack and picking a price on that basis. Your price may be significantly affected by the fact that you consider yourself a much stronger player than the opposition, but I wouldn't tell them that. At best, it will piss them off and they might tilt away some chips if the deal falls through, but I doubt it ever motivates them to make the deal.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm in middle position with 8-8. This is a small no-limit hold'em tournament and the blinds are $100-$200. There are 5 tables left. I have $2000 in chips. A new player makes a wabble-call and goes all in for $1800 in early position. The way she paused in her action, I know she has A-K (because she almost just called and then reluctantly raised). I'm not inclined to risk my whole stack here for slightly better than even money even though I feel everyone will fold behind me.
However, before the action gets to me, a K-J offsuit gets discarded face up. My question is: Do you think this improves my chances significantly? Do you think it's worth making the call?
I've since run sims on these hands, and will tell you the results in a later post.
Probably makes you slightly better than even money but the sims only give us part of the answer. If you have good table control then you can steal blinds to survive until you get a good hand, and if there are several weak players then there's a good chance you'll get a call when you're a significant favourite in a later hand. I think I'd probably pass. Another point is, do you think the new player might almost call and then raise with 99, TT or JJ ?
Andy.
If you could guaranteee that she has AK, then the exposed K makes a pretty big impact on your chances. I would guess you go from a 52-48 favorite to a 58-42 favorite. With the added dead money from the blinds, this is a very favorable gamble.
However, I have to agree with Andy here, and wonder if she couldn't have a slightly higher pair instead. Also, what about AQ? The KJ fold actually helps her a little, I think.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It was late in the tournament on Saturday. There were 13 people left and they paid 9. I had 3500 in chips and the levels were 1000-2000. I was in late position with JJ. There was a limper in early position, then the guy next to me raised. He had been raising with any pair trying to steal. I was fairly certain that I had him beat, and I was resonably certain that he had a low pair. I had no idea what the early limper had. I sat and deliberated over whether to re-raise for quite a while. A re-raise would leave me with 500 dollars which I would almost certainly put in on the flop anyways. I felt that it was best to wait for the flop and see what it brought. I called. The early position player called. The flop came 3 4 6 rainbow. The early position guy bet out. The pre-flop raiser raised all-in 1500 and I called with my remaining 1500, early position called. Results later.
Should I have re-raised before the flop and should I have called after the flop?
Any responses would be appreciated.
yes and yes.
you are committed to this hand no matter what happens unless it is capped preflop before it gets to you.
the only way you should not have raised preflop is if you think you can use you last bet to knock someone out on the flop. but i think it would be easier to knock out the limper now.
scott
I think you needed to reraise to try to eliminate any hands like Ax that haven't acted. You've only got five or six hands before you're blinded off (I assume there were 2 tables with 7 and 6 players)and aren't likely to get a better situation than this. If you're unlucky enough to be against a bigger pair than JJ, then it wasn't your day, and you're a pretty big favorite against anything else.
Perhaps by calling you were thinking you might be able to get away from a flop with a lone ace, but with only 1500 and the blinds a few hands away, I'm not sure that would be correct.
By calling, I was thinking that I could get away from a flop with two or more overcards. By re-raising, I'm committed to the pot no matter what. I was figuring that early position caller, by the way he was big stack, would probably call two bets cold anyways. Nobody was playing junk at this point in the game, so if he had something like AQ or AK, he would call anyways. If he had a lower pair, he would call. I figured that if I saw the flop and it was ragged, I could put my money in and be pretty sure I had the best hand. But if it had high cards, I may be able to get away from it.
Is this hazy thinking?
Yeah it is hazy thinking you need to get all your money in pre flop you are committed anyway to think you are not is a mistake.
As it turned out, you were right, and the early position guy had a set of 3's. The initial raiser had a pair of 5's so it turns out I was a pretty big favorite pre-flop. Maybe the re-raise would have driven the 3's out.
Thanks for the responses. Another leason learned. Next time I'll re-raise.
Whether or not you can get rid of the early limper is something only you would know. You were there and had seen him play. If there is some chance of getting him out now, there is a reason to reraise.
The real reason to reraise is to get rid of the big blind. At this point in the tourney, I would rather get rid of him and have his big blind in there dead than have him call 1 more bet with a hand that I can never put him on and hit the flop. If I were the big blind here, I would be calling with a lot of hands when looking at a 7.5:1 call, and a chance to become chip leader.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It is this kind of thinking that probably left you short-stacked to begin with. You have to see some big chunks of your own stack in the center in order to build a stack to punish people with.
Problem with your thinking is if an overcard comes and it is bet what to do. I'm probably all in under the circumstances you layed out - I want one or both to fold to my raise - You are committed the the pot so get your money in pre-flop.
You probably have a set staring at you now after the flop.
I have to say, without reading the responses: Definite reraise before the flop, definite call on the flop. You hope your re-raise seals the deal for the blinds and knocks out the early limper. You have no chips to speak of, and what does 9th place pay? Your buy-in + a rebuy?
Screw that!
Better to be 13th out trying to win a spot in the top three than breaking even in spots 6-9.
On the flop, you can't ask for much more than what you got. You were a dog to see a flop with no overcards.
had you re-raised pre-flop, you would have been all in before the flop anyway, as original raiser would no doubt have put you in. How could he not?
OK. I'll check the results out now and see how wrong fate would have me look.
Playing 3 handed tournaments waiting for ring game to start. Started off with $1100 in chips and 5-10 Pot Limit for $20 man. Doubling the blinds every 10 minutes.I've got about 1600 at the 25-50 level and one player who respects my play immensely comes in for the $250(5X the BB) I look down to Pocket Aces and smooth call putting my foe on a big hand and looking for the trap. Player 3 calls and the flop is 872 rainbow. Player 3 checks and my foe bets 400. I know he's got Kings and I raise all in. Other player folds and my opponent calls and shows Kings. The turn is a Jack and the river no help. Player 3 said after the Jack came that he had J9 which on the flop was a gutshot and he said he would have called if I only called and would have put all his chips in on the turn. My question is whether or not I made the right play. By my calculation if I let him in that means that after the turn card instead of having 2 outs (2 Kings) against me, I would have had 11.(2 Jacks, 3 9's, 2 Kings, and 4 10's) Do I want to take the pot right there against one opponent or should I go for the whole enchilada and give a few more outs a chance for the win. I realize this is just small money and we were only doing it for S&G(shits and grins) but I'm looking for the logic no matter what the stakes were.
Thanks in Advance,
Russ
I like the way you played it. Getting to cute with the BIG pair is always dangerous. Those collective outs can kill a guy.
I think you did the right thing. First, there's too much danger as the outs against you increase. Plus, is the J9 going to give you more money on the river if he doesn't improve? Probably not. And if he does improve, you're dead.
JohnnyD
In May I had the pleasure of playing the "big one" in the WSOP for the first time.
I was nervous.... who wouldnt be? But within 30 minutes I picked up KK and won a nice pot. a couple of little pots followed, and after 90 minutes play I reached 15000 chips, and was feeling good.
Then I felt even better! In the big blind, I looked down and saw 2 black aces! The only player who held more chips than me made it 200 to play (the antes were 25, 50) everyone passed to me.... Not wanting to play too cute.... I reraised making it 700 to play...
The chip leader, who I had never played with before, but was clearly no fool (he had shared the WSOP omaha comp) now made it 2000 to play.
This is now my chance to win a big pot....
What is my best move? I have played in very few big tournies..... and every time I have held aces I have won the pot preflop.
I figure I have 3 options...
1) flat call 2) a small reraise 3) move all in
I am intereted in everyones opinions, and I will tell you what happened after reading your comments.
If you are feeling tentative and concerned that you might get outplayed on later streets (correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the impression I get) then pushing all-in is probably your best bet. Even if that is not the case it can't be very wrong. Brunson in S/S says something like "the main objective with Aces is to get it all in pre-flop against another big hand" and I agree.
Andy.
While you're in a great spot, it is tough to play it right. I would hate to just call here, because I'd be afraid of winning no more if he misses the flop, and of going broke when he trips up.
I think the real question is will this guy call your re-re-re-raise with anything other than the other 2 aces? It's hard to imagine any good player calling another raise with less here. Yet, if you just call his raise now, what might he put you on? It takes a pretty big hand to reraise and then call a re-reraise also. Maybe he'll put you on AK? If so, then you can check any flop that doesn't have an A or K, and expect him to make a decent-sized bet.
It really depends upon what hands you put him on, and what hands you think he puts you on, if you just call here. With that information, how do you think he'll play various flops? Will you be able to CORRECTLY fold your hand if he flops a set to his KK, QQ? By correctly, I mean fold when the Q on board gives him trips, but get more money in when the Q flops and he has KK? This is critical, and very hard to do and to know.
If this guy is more likely to outplay you than you are to outplay him postflop, then I'd be inclined to put in a big raise now, and figure on winning the 2K that he's already put out there. If you think you can get more money out of him when you're still ahead postflop, then just call now, and hope he puts you on AK (and that an A doesn't flop to let him fold his KK).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
if you raise, raise to 6000. let the other guy move all in. there is no reason to over bet the pot.
and a small raise is almost never right.
a smooth call would be ok. but so would the raise.
it really depends on this guys post flop habits. if he will bet the pot when he hits it (or even when he doesn't) then you can probably make the most by calling and checking the flop.
but here what i would usually do. i would raise to 6000. there is still not that much deception in it (since it is the 4th raise), but he will see the 9000 in your stack and the 8000 in the pot and probably call.
then check the flop. what he will think is that you had AKs (or KK or QQ when an A or K falls respectively) and are afraid since he called you rerereraise preflop. he will bluff at it. call and (usually) win the pot.
scott
Only hand worth going broke with at this stage of a tournament is AA - push in you will eigther win int right there or be a big fav.
Don't get cute with aces in a big tournament - try to get heads up where you are a huge fav.
You move in. You're very fortunate to have had an opponent put 2000 and bring the action back to you at this early stage of play. You either pick up 2000 or get all-in as at least a 4.5-1 favorite. That's ideal for the first round.
The problem with calling is that if you don't flop an A, which is highly probable, you're in a really uncomfortable position. You could easily end up going broke if he flops two pair or a set-especially being first to act.
FYI, I got crippled in the WSOP main event a few years ago in much the same situation. I put in a pretty big raise with AA under the gun (something like 1000 at the 50-100 level and got called. I check-raised the ragged flop and ended up losing a huge pot to a set
Usually with AA at this early stage you end up winning something like 75 or 225 with an initial raise or a reraise. Take the 2000 or make him put in his whole stack as a huge underdog to see a flop
I've never played the big one, and I have less than 120 hours of live no - limit experience (then for a 3 and 5 dollar blind they used to spread at Texas Station in Vegas) and less pot - limit experience.
That being said, I would move all in at this point and try to shut this guy out of the pot. I think the pot is big enough, and he might catch something to beat you on the flop, or catch enough to call a move-in raise at that point, and catch something later, and bust you.
End it here.
Well.......
I thought about it long and hard.... and I reraised 5000 more...
He showed me QQ and passed.
The thing is, Im sure that in a smaller competion.... I would have smooth called his raise.... and then checked the flop.....
Realistically, he could only have QQ or KK so I can be very careful if either of these 2 cards hit the flop.
but........ the day got the better of me....... and i raised..... only be outdrawn when there was 100 players left.... oh well....... if anyone is intersested, I could post another couple of problems which I faced during the tournament.
I will never forget the experience, and hope to have another go one day.
.
no text
Nice problem.Youre in a lovely position chipwise at this stage.Some guy has just put 2000 into the pot when you have two aces.I think you made the right move.This guy has enough chips to bust you and probably wont give you too much action after the flop unless he has you beat.Binions on the first day is littered with stories of missplayed aces
No-Limit Tourney, down from 13 tables to 4 (pays 14 spots). Antes are $25, blinds are 100/200. I am UTG with only 700 left. I hold KQo. Very tight table. I just moved to this table 10 hands ago, but during that time, there has only been 1 flop.
What do you do? Fold or raise.
I raised, got knocked out by AK...but I still think raising in that situation is correct. Am I wrong?
I hate KQ - UTG it is a clear fold for me. You have eneough for a few hands - I'd wait for a better spot.
If I am playing the hand I am all in.
Problem is: once he takes the blinds, he will not have enough for a late position steal, and is almost certain to get called.
He has to go all in here (the blinds + antes make it mandatory--blinds only no antes yet and he might be able to wait).
We need to know how many players there are at the table. Six-handed I'd probably go for it. Ten-handed I wouldn't. Anything between is on a sliding scale.
On top of that, if the blinds were to double very soon that would make a big difference. You don't want to be left with only 400 when the blinds go up to 200-400 or you've had it.
In general, decide whether you have enough chips to see the blinds and another whole round. And when I say enough I mean enough so that when you raise there is a good chance of taking the blinds or at least getting heads-up. If you have, you can wait for something decent. If you haven't, you should consider your next big blind to be your "last" hand and play accordingly.
Andy.
Ok, clarification :
Table is 9 handed.
I am UTG, blinds are 100/200....and there is a 25 ante, so it costs 525 to play a full round - and the pot is 525 right off the bat. I have 700.
If this changes any opinions above, please let me know.
I think you need to play this hand, and going all-in is the best way to play it.
If you fold here, you will be putting up 225 the next hand, and will frequently have to call the raise with anything. When someone raises, they are going to be making you go all-in for 475 to win 1200, or more. In that case, getting about 2.5:1, you need to call with anything, unless you can know with pretty high certainty that the player has a pair higher than both your cards. You are too far from the money to play for mere survival. You need to win some chips to make the money.
The random hand you get next deal will not give you as good a shot at winning as the KQ will now. The thing is, this time, when you raise, the players in the middle will likely fold hands like Ax and small pairs, not so much for fear of you, but for fear of you PLUS fear of what better hands might be behind them. Once it gets around to the blinds, they might call with these hands, but they will probably fold their junky hands that are only slight dogs to you (like T8s, J7o, etc.).
If you wait for the blind, some guy in the middle may try to steal with the Ax and small pairs, hands that you got out with your raise before. If it folds around to the button or small blind, you might get raised by only a mediocre hand, but often you will be facing the best of the 8 opposing hands. When you raise UTG, and no one has that much of a hand, you might win uncontested, and when you don't, the hand you end up fighting against might not be the strongest opposing hand that was dealt against you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It's worth emphasising that when you are UTG and decide you have to go for it on this hand or the next, waiting till the blind has the further disadvantage that people might call the blind and then call again when you bet from the blind, when they might have folded to a UTG raise.
Andy.
I think you have to go with the KQ here, unless the table is super loose and no one can pick up the blinds and antes, because you are so short stacked. Without the ante, I would say you probably have a clear to marginal fold, but with the T25 ante, there is at least $500 in the pot, and you barely have enough for the blinds and another round. Now is the time to take a stand.
(But if this were a live game it's a fold every single time.)
I have one question about the way that I played a hand in a tournament on Saturday. I think I played it right, but I'm not sure. I don't really remember the chip positions, it was still at a level where no one involved in the hand was too close to going all in. I had just about enough to bet the hand all the way through.
I got AA in early position and raised. Two callers and the button reraised. I 4 bet and everyone called. The flop came A K 4 with the ace and four being spades. My question is should I check this flop planning on check raising? I didn't, I bet out. The two pre-flop limpers called, and the button folded (I think he probably had QQ, JJ, or TT. A blank fell on the turn. Should I try to check raise now since most likely one of them is not on a flush draw and probably has AK and will bet it since he obviously doesn't believe I have the aces? I bet out again and got both callers. The river paired the 4. I bet out again, going all in, and they both called. I don't know what they had, but I was quite stunned that both of them called my bet on the end since I was fairly certain that at least one was on a flush draw.
Did I play this right? Did I miss any bets?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
you got 2 callers and you went all in. how could you have missed bets? did you want the third guy in the whole way too? tripling up not good enough for ya, huh?
if knew how the whole hand was going to be played out, you played it perfectly. that much is clear.
but you didn't know. so let's think for a mintue.
i think going for either check raise is suspicious after capping preflop, especially with you being so close to all in. people may be reading these bets as desperation bluffs and you are likely to get calls from hands drawing dead.
you couldn't have knocked out the flush draw with such a huge pot formed preflop, which is the only hand drawing live (unless you count the one out that smaller sets have. but as the other preflop raiser folded, i think this is very unlikely. and gutshots to broadway, which are also unlike since these people cold called an early raise preflop.) so your whole goal is to try to get as much money in from hands drawing dead that you can.
i think you played it perfectly.
scott
I realize that the point is moot in this situation because I went all in and couldn't have gotten any more money out of the two callers. I was just wondering for future reference and you answered that for me.
Thanks for the response.
Don't you think AK would have raised on the flop or turn?
I would think so, but I can't imagine what else these guys had. They stayed in on the river even though the board paired and the flush didn't come. I mean, could they have really stayed in all that way with anything less? I think they were fools to stay in pre-flop and when the flop contained an ace and a king, I don't know how they didn't give me credit for a set. I hadn't even raised a pot since I sat down with these guys, nevermind cap one. I don't know what they were thinking.
Did you miss a bet? I don't get it. Looks to me like to bet every round!
Playing the nuts is easy. What's there to think about? Bet raise raise raise raise scoop pot. My gramma couldn't play that hand wrong.
-SmoothB-
I have just returned from my local casino. It is part of the Ladbroke/Hilton group which have recently announced the "Poker Million". They have introduced a number of rule changes for this competition. These are to be adopted in other competitions.
One of these is that a player must state verbally how much he is betting. If a player places the chips in front of him without saying how much he is betting, he is not allowed to make the bet.
Apart from the humiliating sight of a player with a throat cancer problem having to make finger gestures to indicate how much he wishes to bet, this rule encourages angle shooting e.g I have a flush draw in early position I place chips in front of me without saying anything, these are returned and everyone checks so I can have a shot at a free card.
Anyone heard of anything crazier than this?
i may be totally wrong, but isn't this just to stop string bets
The rule about string bets has been applied for many years and is clearly understood. A string bet is where you drop chips one after another. This rule applies if you bet one chip.
Has anyone ever heard of this rule anywhere else.
One of the other new rules is that if a player bets out of turn, he cannot open the betting or raise for the rest of THE HAND, NOT JUST THE ROUND OF BETTING. I would also be surprised if anyone has experienced this rule elsewhere.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Is there any good way to calculate one's ev/hr and stdev in tournaments (like the one that Mason "invented" for ring games)? Also, how long does it take to be comfortable with one's ev/hr?
Ev/hour is simple enough to calculate on a spreadsheet just by logging the number of tournaments, hours, prizes etc. and summing. The problem is unless you're playing every day, I don't think you can _ever_ be all that comfortable with it. You need at least a year's worth of results to be significant, and you should always be a different (hopefully much better) player than you were a year ago.
Andy.
I prefer an ROI (return on investment) calculation - if is derived by comparing your tournament winnings to the money you have to invest to play in entry fees and rebuys.
Kind of like a PE index for stocks.
Last year I believe my return was 4.80 which ment I made $4.80 for every $1.00 spent for entry and rebuys.
that sounds like a good way to go about it. i guess the number of hours would be the variable to show you how certain you are of the ROI
I think the hours spent laying in tournaments are a bit mis leading - you can bust out on the 1st hand or one off the money. I am interested in my return on investment. Guess it really doesn't matter so long as you keep good records so you know how you are doing.
What would be considered to be a good return on investment? I am currently doing well, but have not played in nearly enough events to make a reasonable assessment.
Dave Veitch
Dave,
Anything positive can't be bad. I personally would be surprised if anyone in the UK runs higher than 100% over a significant period of time in our small buy-in tournaments, and 50% is pretty good.
Andy.
Dave palyed 89 tournaments in '99 buy in's from $15 to 500.
You can use Mason's techniques. One problem is that tournament results are highly skewed (usually a small loss, occasionally a huge win), so it will take a larger number of entries for the estimators to converge.
Tourney pays top 16; about 45 people left
150 ante, 300 force 1000/2000 betting
I have about 6000, which makes me the 3rd highest at the table.
Player to my immediate right is forced in for 300. The player to HIS right has a Jc. Every other up card is 9 or lower and duplicated. I figure I have over cards and a 2 flush and since there are no big cards out perhaps it won't get raised. I call with Ad and Qh in the hole with a 7h as my door card. Everyone folds to the Jack who raises to 1000, the force folds, and it's just me left. Should I raise, call or fold here?
He coud have Jacks, but i have a live ace and queen. He is also capable of raising as a steal.
What about me calling the force in the 1st place?
I think you need to be the aggressor at this stage of the tournament. If I was to play the hand at all (which I probably wouldn't at a full table) I would raise to start with, and I'd only do that if the A or Q was up as a scare card rather than the seven. Given that you have just called you probably have to fold to the raise, depending on the usual things (what you think of the raiser, what you think he thinks of you etc.).
At this stage of the tournament, think about lowering your raising standards but tightening up on calling raises a lot. If you just never call you aren't too far wrong at an aggressive table.
Andy.
Are there still regular tournaments at the Mirage? If so, can someone post the schedule- Thanks!!
Ok........ my next WSOP conumdrum.
This occured at level 2 with blinds of 50-100.
I now have approx 17000 chips and feel I am playing pretty well.
The player who has been playing most pots on the table makes it 400 to go UTG, I am in late position with 77, I decide to call with the intention of passsing if I dont flop a set.
The BB is the player I tangled with when I held AA in the previous level. He proceeds to make it 1500 to play.
Do you think I am justified making such a large investment into the pot with such a weak holding? Was my original call of 400 misguided?
The raiser and the BB both have between 13000 and 15000 in chips.
Again...... I will tell you what happened after seeing your comments.
Keith
You should call, most players will follow the 5 and 10 percent rule. So, I think $1500 falls within those guidelines, especially if you have a chance to bust one or two players. I think if you hit your set on the flop you will win a big pot. Even if you don't flop a set you should consider betting the flop if you don't think the flop hit what your opponents are holding, or check with getting a free card.
nt
Calling here is fine if you are certain you can win at least another 5K or more postflop every time you flop a set. The BB player is obviously capable of making an intelligent laydown, so if he has something like AK and misses the flop when you catch a 7, it would appear that he won't be too likely to pay you off. You need for him to have an overpair to the flop, or to catch top pair with AK when you catch a 7 to make money from him. Of course, 1 hand does not make for a good read, and you may know otherwise.
As for the loose player, how loose is he postflop? Will he pay you off if he catches anything? What about draws? Will he pay too much for them?
I would only call the raise if I'm quite certain I can make enough postflop when I flop a set. Against some players, that's going to be easy. Against others, it will be hard. Your read is what counts.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Gregs right.If youre not sure of getting paid if you flop a set the 1100 could be put to better use later as in when youre the aggressor.You have a lovely stack at this stage.Why dribble it off?
Keith,
I guess the guys behind me would have a lot to do with weather I call the 400 or not. How late were you I guess there were atleast 3 behind you and if they were calling raises or not out of the blinds. I sure wouldn't be calling the $1500 and probably wouldn't have called the $400 unless on the buton or in a blind where I would have most certainly have made it $1000 to go.
I read where the final 9 players made a 9 way deal. What a joke. I must be in the minority who believes that allowing deals like this really makes our sport less credible.
At Casino Arizona on Saturday, they had their $40,000 freeroll. To be eligible, you had to accumulate points by placing in their daily tournaments. The top 100 players could play. When it got down to 17 players, they chopped.
I was playing at the little card room in Payson, AZ the other day and was told this story. The casino offered a freeroll tournament where the total prize was $6,000. Only 17 players qualified and showed up. Without dealing a card, they decided to chop the prize. They didn't play one hand.
I find this whole dealmaking thing very distasteful. But very few people seem to agree with me.
JohnnyD
I feel the same way you do,Johnny.
I agree too. I would certainly never make a deal more than three-handed. The freeroll stories don't surprise me - nobody shows more short-term selfishness than a losing poker player. If I was running the casino where no hands were dealt, that would be the last freeroll I'd be offering.
Andy.
If I ran the casino where no cards were dealt in the freeroll tournament Id be absolutely delighted that so many of my customers had got a few bucks and were now ready to let me start raking the money back without wasting time and money.
.
I was told they split the money and most of the players went home. They didn't stay and play in live games.
JohnnyD
They can run but they cant hide.
They did change the rule that no deals could be made until they were down to, I believe they said 5 players.
JohnnyD
I always understood the rule to be you can't make a deal unless you were n the money - guess that was not the case here.
Johnny I agree I won't talk deal with more then 4 left unless I am in such a bad chip position it is in my interest to make a deal but I can see the point of deals in this sort of situation where the players had nothing invested.
The payout is so top heavy it screams "lets make a deal" I'd like to see a re-thinking of the payout structure with a bit more for the guys who play hard for hours and bearly get their buy in back.
Johnny going to the Orleans open later going to try to make it around the 18th(Limit HE) or 20th (NL HE)for a few days.
It's fairly late in a limit tournament. We're at the 300-600 level and I pick up A 9 off in the big blind. Everyone folds to a fairly aggresive player on the button who raises. The small blind folds. I call because I figure he could have almost anything in this spot. The flop comes A 9 7. The flop couldn't be that much better for me. I check because I was 95% sure this player would bet. He doesn't dissapoint and I check raise him. He re-raises me. At this point I think his most likely holding is Ace King or Ace queen. He's the type of player that would re-raise with either of these hands. 77 and Ace 7 were also a possibility, but I figured that there was a good chance I still had the best hand, so I re-raised back. He just called. Now I was fairly certain that I had the best hand. He was the type that would re-raise back with a set and probably with Ace 7. The turn paired the 7. I bet, he called. The river was an 8. No flush possible. I would have had to go all in if I bet, and even though I was fairly certain I had the best hand, I checked just in case he would check behind me with the best hand and I could survive. He bet and I called all in. This bet on the end almost put him all in.
Can anyone guess his hand? Also, did I play this correctly? Should I have 3 bet pre-flop, should I have 4 bet post-flop?
I appreciate any responses.
I'd have to put him on a any number of hands. AK to AT seem great possibility, Pair KKQQJJTT - he let you have the last word on the flop and checked the turn - I would think you had the best hand If he had A7 you just got unlucky if he is on TJ he is not "fairly aggressive" he is a mainac.
Hope you won it but I sense you didn't.
This is about a Stud Satellite I played at the Orleans open. Nothing real significant here but some of you may get something out of it. If you got better things to do I suggest you do them.
Last Night: Sunday, 9 July 2000, for you purists.
Casino: Orleans, Las Vegas.
$30 Seven Card Stud Satellite. All eight players added $5 to second place. so the pay offs were $160 for first and $70 for second instead of the usual $30.
Susie Isaac was at my table. She had her book with her and was selling them for $20. No, I did not buy it.
I was determined to play extremely well during this Satellite. I had not been doing real well here and Mason's words to me: "Why bother" were ringing in my ears.
We got down to 3 players. Susie, another gentleman and me. Yes, I am a gentleman also regardless of what you may have heard. There were T2400 chips in play. I was low man on the Totem pole with T500. The other two were about even. Ante's were T15, bring in T25, 50-100 level. The following hand developed. The other gentleman raised with an Ace up. Susie reraised with a K. I folded. To my surprise and glee the other gentleman called. The play continued to the rivr with a bet on each street! Susie lot with Kings up to a wheel and now I was in second place with chips 500 to $150. On the next hand I made a mistake. I had Q/T,9 two suits and raised. I was called by the other gentleman and Susie folded. I was kicking myself. How could I be so Stupid. I caought a blank and my opponent caught a J on fourth street, I checked and he checked. On Fifth I Caught a J and he caught a 7. I know had Q,J,T,9,x against J,Th,7h. I checked and he bet. I thought for a moment considered chip position and folded. On the next hand Susie got all in against the other opponent and lost. I was now assured second. After a few hands I had about T600 to 1800. My opponent offered me an additional $30 making Second $100 and first $130 so I took it. I wanted to play some heads up but said the heck with it and went on my way.
Susie got very upset when she lost the hand with Kings up. Rightfully so! She should be upset. Not because she lost the hand but because she put so much money in when losing. I on the other hand was ecstatic. Both players mad a husge mistake by going heads up given thier stack sizes and I enjoyed every bet! Even though I finished second I was satisified that I had played my best.
Vince.
Nice report. I once played a NL Hold'em with Susie. She was real pissed when she lost her whole stack to me. Make sure you always sit at her table if you need extra chips.
Does anyone thing it is necessary to have a gals only tournament in the middle of a major like the Orleans Open. Seems lie a waste of a day to me. Gals why don't you complain it is 2000 and heck women play just as good as men IMHO.
You're just a trouble maker.........
JohnnyD
The only remotely persuasive argument for such events that I have ever seen is that they may bring more women into poker. Do they? I have no idea. If they do, then fine. Bringing new players to the game is good. If they don't, then they're ridiculous. Women have established themselves among the toughest players in poker. I suspect some avoid those events because they are insulted by them.
Actually the top women DO play in them - easy money is hard to say no to.
In the current issue of CardPlayer, they report the results of a series of Ladies Only tourneys at the Bike (I think it was the Bike). Did you notice the amazing overlays the women got? It appears that every tourney had a guarantee of $10K, and only 1 of the 4 tourneys had enough entries to reach that amount without support from the casino. In the other 3 tourneys, there was about 8-10K in money added by the house, and then, to finish the series, they had a 10K freeroll!
So, that's about $20,000. in money put up by the Bike for the Ladies. If I still lived out there, and knew in advance that so much of the money was going to be put up by the house, I'd have put on a kilt and entered myself.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg I make a really ugly woman but in Arizona Gila River did a $4000 or so add on and $5 entry fee on Sat afternood only problem is you had to be a gal to enter. I considered buying a (BIG) dress and entering. :-)
I'm thinking about going down to foxwoods for the no limit tourney tommorrow night. This will be my first time playing no limit. I'm reading Super System right now to get some tips. Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to play? How much does no limit differ from limit?
Also, anyone who's played in the foxwoods tourney, what 's it like? I'm assuming it's crazy at the begginning since there are unlimited rebuys.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
It is a much different game from limit.
You will usually be playing hands heads up and position takes on a whole new meaning.
A lot depends on the table you draw - it if is the kind of table where you can see flops for cheaps you can play your small pairs and suited coupled card if they are making you play hands for all your chips you may have to wait for premium hands.
Remember you don't have to bulid pots you can always push in at any time. There is a lot more bluffing and in no limit you need a much better hand to call a raise than you do to raise.
Good luck and if you can pick up TJ's book "Championship NL&PL HE" do your self a favor and read the NL section it is bound to help you.
Start off real slow. Pay attention to how agressive the table is. In some of the smaller no limit tournaments, the players have little no limit experience and play it like it's a limit tournament. If that happens at your table, you can see the flop with more hands. If they are agressive, forget draws of any kind.
In no limit, the trap is your best weapon. Always be thinking about trapping and be aware of your opponent trying to trap you. If an agressive players just checks or calls where you would expect him to raise or bet, watch out!
You can't make any mistakes in no limit. Be careful and selective.
JohnnyD
"You can't make any mistakes in no limit. Be careful and selective."
Johnny you mean like playing 33 against AA for all your chips ala target. Some times it is about doing the wrong thing at the right time.
:-)
I sure miss those daily tournaments in Arizona.
I play in that tourney very often. It is a great tourney. By great, I mean it's a great tourney to enter if you're a good player, because most of the field is quite weak. It's also great if you're a weak player, because you won't need as much luck to make the money (as you would if you were the only weak player).
The style of play you can expect is indeterminate. It will vary greatly from one table to the next. You might rarely hear the call of rebuy from 1 table, and hear it every hand from another.
The format gives you a lot of play for your money. You pay an initial $35, 25 to the pool, 10 to the house. You get T200 in chips. Levels last for 25 minutes. First level is 5,5 blinds. Second and third levels have blinds of 5,10 and 10,15. Rebuys last for these first 3 levels. Anytime you have T200 or less, you can pay $20 and get T200. So, if you go broke, you can pay $40 and get T400. At the end of the third level, you can take any rebuys for which you are eligible, PLUS you can take a single or double add-on (i.e., $20 to T200 or $40 for T400). Thus, even though there are usually about 45-50 players, you will frequently have a prize pool of $5K or more.
Because the blinds are so small initially, and go up so slowly, you will see a lot more limping. It is not uncommon to see 6-9 players see the flop with no raise. It is also not uncommon to see 4-7 players take the flop for a small raise (let's say a raise to T20 in the first level, or T50 in the third level). If you have a hand that can flop big (e.g., any pair), then be inclined to call the unraised blind. If someone raises big, you can muck and just lose a little bit. You will find some players who are super loose-aggressive, even maniacal, early on. Some of them even stay like this after the rebuys are over. You will find a few players who are very tight all the time. Most players will play like a 3-6 game. Even if you raise preflop, they will call with hands like KJ, because it's 2 picture cards. It's not uncommon for someone to call your pot-sized bets on the flop, turn, and river, and then lose to your unimproved AA because they flopped top pair with KJ.
Like any poker game, the trick is to get to know your opponents. Some of them will be super loose-aggressive whenever they can do so cheaply. They will raise a series of limpers preflop with very weak hands, just because it only costs them T25. However, the same player might only bet the pot on the river if he has the nuts. So, be sure to differentiate between those who are maniacs, and those who are selective maniacs.
Have fun!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here is a URL for the info looks interesting - I am seriously considering on a go. The satellites look interesting too.
http://www.poker-in-the-uk.com/Ladbrokes_Million_2000.htm
"The satellites look interesting."
No, the satellite format is f****d up. This is because Ladbrokes want to sell the idea of "Million for a Tenner"--win a million for an outlay of just £10. Trouble is, IF and when you win the £10 sat, there's another sat, and then another, and then you actually get a place in the tournament. Interesting? That's a polite word for it.
Regards,
Richard
Gee Rich, who shit on your breakfast. :-)
Breakfast? I was asleep until noon! But seriously Rounder, if you do enter a satellite, and then win it, take the money and go play a cash game. I am not taking part in Poker Million, in a move which I am sure will rock the very foundations of Ladbrokes and no doubt prompt the instant resignation of the chief executive :-P
Regards,
Richard
These people are trying to advance poker in Europe to a level we only dreamed and there seems to be a queue to pick holes in their project.I got 14500 pounds for winning one of the fourteen different European omaha championships in the Vic just four years ago .Now theres going to be a tournament where that wouldnt be enough to stick three guys in ....Some non BRANDNAME winning a million for an outlay of a few quid could be the best thing that ever happened for everybody.
nt
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 July 2000, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Richard Gryko (rjgryko@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 July 2000, at 3:25 p.m.
Posted by: padraig.parkinson (padraig.parkinson@wanadoo.com.fr)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 11:48 a.m.
I am a fairly successful LL (3-6 to 8-16) HE player who has recently starting playing some NL tournaments. My local room has a daily 20 person one with T1000 to start, 15-30 blinds doubling every 15 minutes. One rebuy of T800 during the first two rounds only. 3 spots paid.
The 2 times I have played I lost a big stack with AK. First one, early in the tournament (2nd round, I think) a middle-position player raised 3X BB first in, all folded to me on button, I saw AKs and raised all-in, about 15XBB. Blinds fold, he calls. I lose to AA. Second one, I am chip leader with T3500 about one hour into tournament. All fold to button, he raises all-in, SB folds, I see AK and call (I had about T1000 more than him). I lose to TT. My friend at the table said he thought I made the right play and I tend to agree. Still, I am curious when raising all-in or calling a large percentage with AK and AKs might not be warranted.
Are there any good rules for beginners to follow when holding these hands?
If you could see your opponents cards, under what circumstances would you fold AK or AKs pre-flop?
I know these hands are a slight dog to any pair but they do have great potential. I just want to learn how to maximize it. Thanks in advance.
KJS
I believe AK is the most misplayed hand in No Limit. It's a drawing hand. Maybe it's the best drawing hand, but it is still a drawing hand. Why risk all of your chips on a drawing hand. If you can see the flop for a reasonable amount, it's worth playing. If you are the first to enter the pot, raise, but not all in. If you raise with AK and get reraised, almost always you are behind. You should never get busted out early in a tournament with AK. Later on, at the final table, short handed, then that's a different story.
JohnnyD
In NL HE you can't be calling big raises from decent players with AK - OK to make a big bet with it but you need better to call with. Heads up you MUST improve to beat a pair of 2's - I view AK as a betting hand not a calling hand or re-raising hand.
Of course if you don't hit your flop you have to get out if there is anykind of serious action.
Now I'll have a peek at whay my pal Johnny has to say about it.
I can't remember whether it's Super/System or TJ's book that refers to AK in no limit holdem as 'Walking back to Houston' because this hand, perhaps apocryphally, sent many no limit players walking home. Presumably after losing their cars and bus fare.
As others have said, it is a good raising hand, but not a good calling hand. Of course you can play it. But be really careful about who is making the bets when you enter a pot with it. Who pushed in his stack? The guy who hasn't played a hand in 45 minutes, and knows you haven't either? Time to start sweating.
If you get it in early position, put a sizable raise on. Then if it gets raised again by a huge amount, think carefully before moving in with your stack. But, I'd rather push my stack in on AK than 44. Why? At least with AK you are a big underdog to only 2 hands - AA and KK. You are either tie or way ahead with pretty much everything else.
But even though 44 is a better hand (marginally), the only hands that will call an all in move are hands that are even with you, or ones that have a huge advantage. See the difference?
Anyway, no limit is a totally different game than limit. Bluffing is much more prevalent because there is a lot more to gain (and lose). Good limit players often get decimated in no limit.
Here's one thing - DON'T CHASE! Try your best to avoid chasing flush draws, straight draws, etc. Forget about pot odds. Here is an example.
Let's say you have AK spades and you know your opponent has pocket queens. The flop comes Qs 8S 3d.
Both of your hands are face up. There's 2000 in the pot and trip queens bets 800 bucks.
Ok, so you have to risk 800 to win 2800. That's 3.5 to 1 odds - plenty good enough for a call. Right? NO WAY!!!
On the turn, if a spade doesn't come, he can bet all in and then you don't have the correct odds to call and you have to cut it loose. If you DO get a spade, you can bet and he'll fold. But you only have a 1 in 5 chance of catching the spade ON THE TURN. You really didn't have the odds to call after all.
See how it works?
-SmoothB-
In heads up NL HE you never have the odds to make a drawing call - big mistake many NL HE players make I've seen good limit players put all thier chips in with 3 of a suit on board and they have the A of the suit with one card to come.
I guess I don't have that much gamble in me.
I suppose this move seems foolish, but you have to think about it in context. It depends on the situation. Maybe this person is trying to get a big pocket pair to lay down, and is representing a big hand, but has outs if he's called. This is a move you would make against someone with no real outs when a threatening board is out there, and you have outs yourself. Keep in mind that in this case the ace might even be good if it hits - so that's 12 outs. Not too bad.
This move might well work against someone who is trying to protect his stack. It will NOT work against a short stacked player with a reasonable hand.
If you are a dingbat and are making this move because you think you're flush is going to get there, well that is just pitiful. You most definitely don't have the odds to make this play based on JUST your odds of getting there alone. But if you make it in the right spot it can be reasonable. That is why POSITION is so important in no limit.
-SmoothB-
One thing with AK is if you watch your opponents carefully and you know they often or always limp with AA or KK, then AK is much stronger against their raise than it would be against someone else's. If you know your opponent does not have AA/KK, you can't be losing (45-55 at worst) and have the option of re-raising.
Andy.
People have said that you need to be the aggressor with AK, and not the caller. Well, that's kind of true. However, it's just as true about every other hand (except maybe AA, and even then you'd rather raise most of the time if you have more chips left).
In your 2 situations, the big raise of the early position raiser might have been a good or bad play, depending upon what you could surmise about that guy's hand, based upon his history. I can't say. However, your call of the all-in button-raise in the second example is almost certainly a good call. First in the pot button-raises, from most players, do not require any great hand. So, you will be ahead much of the time here. Against some players this will not be true, but against most your AK is a solid favorite, and a profitable gamble.
So, as always, it depends. However, if you step down to even AQ, things start to change dramatically.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
x
Well, I've been here in Vegas for about three days and Ive played nine satalites and split two for a net loss of about $50.00. Not bad for the experience, I guess. I just played in last nights Mirage limit tournement and came in 7th, unfortunately they only paid five places.
The problem I seem to have is that I don't know how to build a chip lead because I've been so engrained with the tight play needed to win in ring games. I'm perplexed because if I played the way some of the tournement players play in ring games, I would go broke in no time. I manage to get to the final two table in the majority of the tourneys I play but I just cant seem to get a payday.
I admit it, Im a freakin rock and I cant get myself to loosen up. It seems everytime I do, I get my teeth kicked in. I just read D.R. Sherers book on tourneys and I am even more confused than ever. I just cant seem to figure out how to win with crap. Anybody got any advice?
Here are a couple of the loose plays in last night tourney.
I am down to my last 2100 with 8 people left and I'm under the gun with a 500 blind coming up. I look down and see 89 of spades. I have not played a hand since I sat down at this table and think maybe I can do an early position steal with this hand and raise. Of course I get reraised by AK and called by QQ. I fold on the flop of 6,6,3 (two clubs). Queens wins the hand. My Conclusion: you dont try to steal with this hand under the gun, you must have position and few players left to act. Right, wrong, crazy? what do y'all think?
Hands I folded that I debated playing and would have won:
I have K,10 offsuit two places to the left of the big blind. I fold because I think the hand is trouble and Im out of position. The flop comes 8,9,10 turn is blank, river is K, no flush possible. KJ wins. Hindsights 20/20, but this hand would have been very difficult to play the whole way through. There were 4 callers to the river and I don't know if I would have had the heart to keep betting top pair with that board and 4 callers.
I get 9/J in the big blind and aggressive chip leader raises, tight old guy calls, I decide to call getting 5-1 for my call. The flop comes Q,10,5 all spades, I check my open ender, aggressive guys checks(1st time all night) and old guy bets. I think and decide to fold this trouble hand fearing I might get there and end up loosing to a flush. Well, a Kc came on the river and old guys 3 queens wins the pot. By the way, old guy went all in on the turn. I could have capped my losses versus the old guy at about 1000 (I had about 4000 at the time of the 60k of chips in play). I was worried about the chip leader in between me and old guy, who may not let me off that easy.
People have said you don't win tourneys, you steal them. DAMN IT, I dont know how to steal, seems like every time I try, I get kicked square in the jaw.
Help break me of my rock like ways.
All replies and advice are greatly appreciated.
Jeff
1stly you ound out you need somehting to steal blinds just in case you find monsters under the bed.
You are putting your self in position to cash and that is how to win tournaments - you can't win if you ain't there - I'd suggest getting very aggressive with good hands and loosen up when getting close to the money. I believe this is when most players tighten up. When there are less than 15 players so you are at a table with 7 or less players and you need to loosen up you are short handed and players are tighter than normal.
Be careful who you go up against and when the bigger stacks will take you on with nothing and the med to small ones will fold good hands just to move up.
Some people have been pondering the question: why do loose aggressive types tend to do so well in tournaments? The answer is simple - and I will explain it.
First of all, imagine a different kind of tournament where, rather than steadily increasing the blinds, you just got 10,000 in chips and played with 5 10 blinds until only one player remained. Now populate this tournament with 1000 players, 500 of them solid and 500 of them maniacs. Sprinkle them around the room, evenly distributed over 100 tables.
Let this tournament go on for days. You could see over 6000 hands and never play one before you got blinded out. This will be a LONG tournament.
Who is going to be at the final table? Probably 8 solid players and 1 maniac. Or 9 solid players. One or the other.
The reason why maniacs are successful in the most commonly structured tournaments is simple.
Now, everyone knows that, as far as SHORT TERM winnings go, no solid player can ever beat a maniac. IN THE SHORT TERM. Of course the maniac always ends up losing it back eventually, but if a maniac goes on a heater he can fill racks faster than the floor people can bring them.
His rate of winning is higher. More dollars per hour.
Now put a bunch of maniacs in a tournament with a bunch of solid players. The odds that one of those maniacs will happen to be on a heater is pretty good. If ONE of those maniacs is on a heater he will win faster than anyone ever could win based on solid play alone. Therefore, maniacs tend to win tournaments.
More importantly, maniacs get good cards at important times. For example, when you're down to 15 people and the maniac is short stacked, he can go on a heater and become chip leader within 20 minutes. Solid players are far less likely to be able to make such a fast comeback.
What it boils down to is that most typical 4 hour tournaments are crapshoots. Plain and simple.
After all, how many of you have seen one of the biggest pigeons you've ever met win a tournament? I have. One of the worst players I know - he loses 1000+ a month in a low limit game - won a 40 person tournament. He played EVERY HAND and went all in SEVEN TIMES. But he still won.
Anyway, I hope this clears up the mystery a little.
-SmoothB-
Message received and understood.
One H.E. and three 7 card stud limit tounaments. Four times knocked out by idiots who had no right calling.
Tournaments should all be no limit. Then you have a chance against the live ones.
That's why I love the tournaments around the Phoenix area. Some are limit, some are no limit. Some have rebuys/add ons....some don't. There's all kinds of tournaments for all styles of play. My favorite...the no limit at Gila River....unlimited rebuys for 1 hour...then what you see is what you get. Before the break it gets crazy at some tables, but after the break required the most skilled poker of any of the local tournaments.
JohnnyD
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Ummmmmmm, I think you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Are you trying to tell me that you have NEVER heard of a loose aggressive, live player winning a tournament? Except for the THREE you mentioned, of course. HELLO, contradiction.
Let me give you an education here Badger. There have been many many articles about how many live players who succeed in tournaments can't win in live games, and vice versa. If you didn't realize that this is true, you obviously don't know crap about tournaments.
Unless you are right and all of the rest of us are wrong. Gimme a break.
Ok, so now for the WSOP. Maniacs don't win that! Of course not - it is a multi day tournament! If you read my posting you will see that I covered that base quite sufficiently.
Also, let it be made clear that maniacs don't ALWAYS win tournaments - oftentimes the winner IS a solid player. I merely offered an explaination as to how maniacs can EVER win tournaments.
I am not the only one who has observed that bad players can win tournaments. Read TJ Cloutier's book and Super/System and maybe you'll be able to understand what I'm talking about.
Anyway Badger, if you still can't get the gist of my message, make a list of all the words you don't understand and I'll see what I can do. But don't expect a miracle.
-SmoothB-
Interesting info -
There is a macintosh texas holdem tournament program - it isn't very good in general so I won't mention it's name but observe the following:
You have about 15 different playing styles to choose from. One of them does nothing but raise raise raise. All the time. It NEVER folds.
If you set up a tournament with 500 players, all evenly spread out, that crazy player that just raises all the time STILL wins the tournament sometimes - in fact, it wins more often than about half of the personalities!!!
Now, these AI personalities don't play very well, and I'm sure that they don't adjust for differnt players styles, but I think this finding is worth noting.
-SmoothB-
I am very confident that this is caused by the weakness of the other AI players, not any intrinsic value of the always-raise strategy.
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I think I figured out where all this is coming from.
Mr. Smoothster got knocked out of a tournament with 7's(yesterday or last night) by a mainac calling his raise with a 68o and flopped a straight - if course smooth bet his set and was upset when the maniac riased him all the way to the river and showed the nut straight.
All kidding aside I have to agree with Badger - I play about 80 to 100 tournaments a year and can tell you it is rare for a "maniac" to make the final table al though it does happen - sure thay do damage the tight aggressive palyer like me once in a while but that is the breaks. A "maniac" is often chip leader at some point but they raise to often with marginal hands and in NL HE (and in Limit) that is a recipe for disaster.
Smooth don't mistake Semi-loose very aggressive play as maniac play. Also some players are very good at shifting gears and going from rock to maniac in a hand just to exploit the table they happen to be at and can shift right back to rockish play for the "right" reasons. I am trying to develop this part of my game now I don't find it easy (I am naturally a tight aggressive type) but I am teaching my self to be more flexible and go with the flow depending on the situaiton.
I love maniacs they make the game profitable and I encourage them to beat me (not to often) with their "any 2 cards" they pour money in to the game and populate tournaments in great numbers wondering why they can't make the break. Heck anyone can win right -wrong real wrong.
Winning and cashing in tournaments on a regular basis takes not only skill and patience but a bit of luck at the right time. Maniacs have no patience they are incapable of folding 2 consecutive hands or making 2 consecutive checks (gotta love 'em).
OK I've said my bit.
I think I know why some people get the wrong impression that maniacs win tournaments. It's because they do most of their observations of those players only during the closing stages of the final table when the game has become a shorthanded game with a high blind/ante structure and the expert tournament player, in turn, has now shifted gears into the more optimal loose aggressive mode in order to exploit the shorthandedness and the high ante/blindness of the game. Let's take the case of Tony Ma and Jay Heimowitz. Once the tournament has become shorthanded/high blind/ante, they correctly go into high gear. Thus, they may seem like a maniacs at this point, stealing the blinds aggressively and raising almost every hand and showing down relatively weaker hands. But if you had observed them earlier (back when the game was still fullhanded), they would have seemed like entirely different players. That's because, the optimal strategy back then was tight aggressive. But the last plays (the ones during the shorthanded high ante/blind period) get remembered more because it gave the observer the "last impression".
I think you're wrong, Badger, about who win these small fast paced tournaments. It's almost never the tight players. That may be the case in the bigger, longer tournaments, but not in the fast paced ones where you start out with only a few chips. I'm not saying it's the maniacs winning it, but it is the agressive ones, not the tight ones.
JohnnyD
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
wow you sound more pissed off than normal - you even forgot to call him "a nit?"
Try again, see if you can make the guy feel even worse.
d.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
how could Badger make him feel worse? Have you ever seen a picture of Badger or seen him in person?? I don't think Badger could put anyone down. BTW when was the last time u sawe badger in a holdem tournament? I dont really think hes qualified to comment on holdem tournaments. Just my opinion.
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Steve I fully agree with you about the limit HE tournaments, they are a lot harder to win than the NL or PL ones. Problem is there are so many limit HE compared to NL it is hard to just play the NL if you like tournaments as much as I do.
Look at the Orleans open for example of the 9 HE events scheduled only 2 are NL and not one PL event. I'd sure like to see more NL and PL tournaments and live games spread. For this reason I am considering moving to Europe for 4-6 months a year.
Those are harder to win, stud w/a twnty or thirty min. rounds. Because of the antes.
But it's interesting...I agree limit holdem is harder to win than no limit because you can't protect your hand, but only for winning players. Losing players overall might like the (and be able to often beat the) limit structure, but a skilled player wants the extra edge of being able to (at least mathematically) eliminate other players by betting large--something that is sometimes impossible to do in limit.
Short term luck. But, in the long run they will always be broke. Thank God for live ones!
This is exactly the point. Short term luck. To the tune of about 4 hours for many tournaments. But also remember that the maniac only has to run hot for a short period of time when it really matters. Like when it's down to 2 tables and the blinds are getting bigger. Plus, when the whole table screws down and plays tight, this gives the maniac a lot of opportunities to steal the blinds, etc.
-SmoothB-
When the whole table screws down tight, you should be stealing the blinds.
There are times in a tournament, particularly as you mention with two tables left, when aggressive play really pays off. Someone who may not be aware of the changing strategies required at different stages in a tournament may play their very aggressive style all the time, and make a lot of chips at the two-table stage if they have been lucky enough to last that long.
It is probably true that a "maniac" will win more tournaments than a rock or a weak-passive player, especially the smaller tournaments, but that doesn't mean that he makes money, and it doesn't mean that you should play "like a maniac". Adjust your style to the needs of the situation and the players around you as of the now.
Andy.
Here is a non-rigorous mathematical approach to why loose aggressive play (not "live one" play) does well in tournaments:
A model for doing well in a tournament is to net win one more pot each hour than you lose without losing, say, three pots in a row. Count only pots with at least several bets in them, not steals or aborted steals where only about one bet is won or lost.
Consider two approaches to trying to win one pot per hour:
First, wait for really good hands where you're pretty sure you're a 2-1 favorite. If you're lucky enough to get one of these situations per hour and lucky enough to get played with each time, you're about an 11-1 underdog to net win six pots by winning six of these in a row.
Second, consider a loose aggressive player who plays 20 hands by taking the initiative whenever he believes he has a 50-50 chance of winning. If I did my binomial expansion correctly, this player is only about a 7-1 underdog to net win at least 6 pots by winning at least 13 out of the 20 he plays without ever losing three in a row.
I don't know how to adjust for the relative likelihoods of each player getting the kinds of opportunities he's looking for and of getting action on them, but I suspect such an adjustment would tip the balance even more in favor of the second ploayer.
Since, statistics is not my forte, I'm not going to figure out what you said, but I think I know what you're getting at. A lot of players do not understand the concept of adjusting their play according to the antes (or blinds). Since, you only get to see approximately 30 hands per hour in a Hold'em tournament, you can not afford to wait for premium hands like you could in a normal ante ring game. You have to play. This means playing more hands and playing them aggressively. You need to figure out who you can bluff and steal antes from. Adjusting your strategy is the key to playing tournaments. Some players never adjust. The maniacs will build a stack of chips fast at the beginning of the tournament and never slow down. Sometimes they make it to the final table, but most lose it when the play at the table changes. Then there's the other extreme. Players who play to tight. These guys don't make it to the final table unless the cards run over them.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I knew THAT. For some reason I kept on thinking of blind increases every half hour.
Maybe if you listen to some of the posts in this thread you'll be able to survive more than 15 hours next year.
-SmoothB-
no need to go on tilt.
I've never gotten the impression maniacs do well in tourneys. There are individual hands where they get away with something and because a single hand can change relative stack sizes so dramatically it might make an impression on somebody who doesn't really understand basic probability.
There are some players who do well that occasionally make a big move with cards that don't seem to merit it. Maybe they do it to keep us guessing. But if their T8o does get called by AK how bad is that? They will still win some of the time.
It seems to me there are just as many players that are too tight and predictable than there are maniac types. They are much easier to deal with aren't they?
I've noticed certain players, during the rebuy period, will see 50% of the flops, and make big raises in many of them. They very often have a hefty stack in a short time. They're just not afraid to make rebuys to get there. Not all that bad a strategy.
Nick wrote: "I've noticed certain players, during the rebuy period, will see 50% of the flops, and make big raises in many of them. They very often have a hefty stack in a short time. They're just not afraid to make rebuys to get there. Not all that bad a strategy."
Um, yes it is.
Any strategy that has you seeing half the flops on a regular basis is a bad strategy. The only exceptions would be in some very contrived circumstances.
This may not be true at certain latter stages of some tourneys, but is almost certainly true at the early and middle stages.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think these hands are grossly overrated. Sure, pocket sevens is a fantastic hand heads up. Everyone knows that - one of the best. The only problem is that is isn't MUCH better than practically every other hand you can think of, and it's a big underdog to a few others.
If you move all in with pocket sevens, you might have the best hand - in fact, it is probable. But you only have about a 5% advantage over most every other hand that will call you, and you are a HUGE underdog to a few others.
Sure, you have a huge lead over 72 offsuit. But no one is going to call you with that.
-SmoothB-
I've seen a lot of players move in all their chips on a small pocket pair which I think is a big mistake. Any two cards eight or higher will have at least a 48.7% chance to make a pair by the river when all the money is pushed in preflop.
I havent read this addition to the end.I can guess what the next six posters are going to say .
Whats happening at the Diamond Club. I am heading back east to NYC and wondering if the Hanleys have any tourneys planned
From what I've heard, they were just raided by the cops again last night, and are shut down for a while.
You might try the Mayfair.
Max
The place is on the rail due to a court injunction. The Hanley's are going to fight it, but it will take at least a week or two to resolve. I'm not that optimistic. Rudy successfully shut down the city's topless bars, fo chrissake.
Is this Manhattan Mike?
No. Michael Tedesco from the pot limit game.
Hey Mike, Have you been playing over at the Mayfair? I am heading back east from San Fran after 7 months, and would hate to have to go to AC. Are john and Billy in jail? Nicky DD, (the painter)
On the General Theory forum, Abdul Jalib recently posted:
"No limit tournaments offer more opportunity for skill (and team play.) Any mistake can be a fatal mistake in a no limit tournament, so a moron (or non-team player) has little chance of winning. Here, the house juice is not a significant issue for the best (team) players."
Is it true that no-limit offers more opportunity for profitable collusion than limit play?
Is collusion so common in these tournaments that non-team players have little chance of winning?
It is over exaggerated but teams do exist and they are not that hard to spot.
All I can tell you is that when all the Europeans won all the money last year at the WSOP most of them didnt know about the teams.All of them laughed when the penny dropped.While in theory any collusion should hurt ones chances maybe if the team philosophy is egodriven it might even work in favour of the innocent who doesnt even spot whats happening in the first place.
I suggest that you go back to the General Theory Forum and read my response to Abdul's post. You will see that no limit in tournaments is very different from no limit side games, and that virtually all tournaments have the (weak) no limit characteristic.
Are you suggesting that when the money is deep among those competing for a pot, the opportunity for profitable collusion is greater than in limit hold'em?
In the 'solved mystery' post below Badger commented;
'Limit Holdem tournaments are the toughest tournaments by far, IMO. A good player has less of an edge. There is more luck than any other game. I don't like to play them.'
Did he mean to say Limit? I would agree that limit is tougher but precisely because the luck factor is reduced. In no limit anybody can score a big hand but limit is more like a live game, until the blinds become huge.
Sorry, the boss came by.
I wanted to ask if Badger really meant to say a better player has less of an edge in a limit tourney?
I am sure he did as the luck factor is greater in limit. A pretty universally accepted fact.
I believe he said what he meant to say, but I'm sure he'll answer for himself. I like my chances in a no limit tournament better than limit tournament. It has to do with my style of play and the fact you can protect your hand in no-limit. I believe it's easier to out-play and cause your opponent to make mistakes in no-limit.
I find I play too many hands in limit and somehow, I get very patient in no-limit.
JohnnyD
Badger really did mean to say limit tourneys are tougher. That only goes to prove his complete lack of a clue and helps explain why he loses tons of money playing in tournaments.
Everyone (except Badger) readily agrees that no limit poker is far less luck oriented. Much more challenging - and fun too.
-SmoothB-
Come on Badger has forgotten more about tournament poker than yu ever knew. Give it a rest OK.
Badger might have a lot of WSOP bracelets but he doesn't know how to win em. That's the point I was trying to make.
My gramma could get a WSOP bracelet if she chose to blow 10 grand on it. But my gramma is smarter than Badger and knows when she in over her head.
-SmoothB-
You Grandma's a pro tourney player as well is she? Now I feel *real* stupid for berating Badger in a thread below when he posted a retort to one of your threads.
quit with this shit you nit.
Problem with some people is they "don't know what they don't know" and that makes them dangerous to them selves and others.
I believe Badger was saying that there is more luck in limit tournaments, so that would lead me to believe that he meant there is less luck in NL tournaments. So you're berating him for saying exactly the same thing you're saying????
He means limit tournaments are tougher *for an expert to win money in*. A player who is highly skilled at all major games and at tournament play of those games will win the least in limit holdem tournaments since the luck factor is highest and the fields are largest.
Yes, anyone can score a big hand in NL, but overall, NL tournaments give the best players more of an advantage than limit (just like in ring games). In limit, a mistaken call usually costs you a fraction of a bet. In NL it costs you your entire stack. NL allows an expert player to put greater weight on situations where he has an advantage. In limit, you are much more constrained. Limit tournaments with deep money may play like a live game in the early levels, but then a solid player will only have a small advantage against typical opposition - 1 BB/hr for the stakes at that point. In NL, that player's advantage can be several times greater assuming the same buy-in.
You have to be joking.Badgers just explained it .Live a little.No limit and pot limit is where the pokerplayer has an edge.Any tournament thaytcan be brought to mathematics and can we have a second opinion from the guys with their pricks in their hands in the corner sucks.Just for the fun ive just read poker europa and some chess grandmaster and some other maths university type who knows fuck all about poker are going to solve all our problems.
Dan;
I think you explained it pretty well. I play very few Limit tourneys - everything out here is NL, at least after the break. I seem to do pretty good in them but I feel the 'skill' I use to do this is not as high level as what I need in a limit ring game. Hence my question to Badger.
A large component to playing NL is simply waiting for the many opportunities that present themselves when you slow play a big hand and a somebody else tries a huge bet. Not very sophisticated.
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.
Mistakes are much more costly in a no limit tournament. A live one can win one or two huge pots but will lose the third one to a solid player who will then have all the chips. In limit, players can more easily get on a roll, lose a hand or two, then continue to be hot.
This makes limit holdem tournaments (and limit holdem live games in general) tougher to beat for serious money for a solid player.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
At the Orleans tournament going on now through almost the end of July here in Vegas it appears that about 20% of the entry fee is for "administrative purposes". My question to all you tournament lovers is simply this: How high does this fee have to be before it becomes a bad investment (30%??40%??50%??)?
As a follow-on question they have little one table satellites going on where you pay a $40 entry fee along with 9 other players for a total prize pool of $400. However, first place gets $300 in tournament chips and second place gets $40 in tournament chips with the balance of $60 being retained for "administrative" purposes. How good of a deal is this and how high would the amount being withheld for "administrative purposes" have to be before these were a bad deal?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Let's look at the satellite issue.
The house makes $60 for about an hour of table/dealer time. How much would they make if a full ring-game were using it instead? Probably at least that much. So, I don't ever expect them to do it for less vig than that. If they did, it would have to be intended as a promotion, not a routine business decision.
So, if I win twice as often as average (which I believe a very good satellite player can do), I'll see a return of $340 once every 5 of these I enter, or a profit of $28 per satellite. Not bad for an hour or less or time. So, it can still be a decent investment of time and money. Maybe I can do better somewhere else in the room, maybe not. Personally, I love satellites, and my historical win rate is excellent. However, I do prefer to play in a satellite for higher stakes, where I think I win even more, with proportionally less vig as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Jim,
Haven't looked at the posts above yet (I respect both of their opinions) but you are being blinded by the numbers and %'s. The main point is the "dead money" in these tournaments and the Casino add on (if any).
As I said in oyour "rip off" post a high % of the bozos entering tournaments have no chance to cash much less cash. This dead money makes up for the juice as far as I'm concerned.
Single table satellites the same applies. although you might find yourself up against the best in a short sprint a good player can make some quick cash here too. If you think you only have a 1 in 10 chance in a 10 handed satellite I suggest one doesn't play in it.
My friend played this hand and we discussed it on the trip home: Part 1 - No-limit Hold-em; blinds 25 - 50, two limpers; you're in middle position holding ace king off-suit. You raise T200, all fold to button, a solid player who has not been out-of-line. He raises all-in for T600 (call 200, 400 raise). All fold to you. You have t600 left so a call would leave you with T200. What do you do?
Part 2-
If he "accidently" flashed his pocket jacks, what would you do?
Thanks in advance, "Wenatchee" Max
Fold.
Fold.
Unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty early in the tournament at this point and going close to all-in with AK is a bad idea here. If he has any pair you're a slight underdog and why go in here to risk almost all your chips? Just wait and play another hand where you can be more confident you have an advantage.
In the second case you DEFINITELY fold because the first fold is mostly based on the CHANCE that he has something like JJ. If you KNOW he has JJ you fold immediately without question.
Again, at the final table playing 4 handed or something you might play this differently but not at this point in the tourney.
natedogg
Part 1. fold, you can't be sure your draw could be dominated to KK or AA.
Part 2. call, there over 1000 in the pot, 400 to you and it's almost an even money proposition with your over cards. You'll be crippled (but not out) or close to chip leader.
d.
My decision would be based on what the opponent thought of my play. If he knew I had to have a big hand to raise from this postion, I've got to give him credit for a big hand. Since (I believe) this is a re-buy tournament, and the chances of him holding Aces or Kings are smaller because of my holding, and I don't want to fold to another A-K, I would call.
Once the Jacks are revealed, the call is automatic.
He had no more rebuys. I think he had already bought.
It would be very difficult to turn down 2:1 here. With 800 chips left, depending on how much longer the round was, he still has a decent number of chips to play. He will be crippled with 200. I guess I'd like to get a feeling as to whether my opponents might have me drawing super thin (he holds Kings or Aces) otherwise I'm likely to put my money in. I mean, you've gotta gamble sometime!
If he plashed the jj's I try to get his hand killed as most tournaments have rules about that and I think the Orleans does too.
With the AK I get all the money in - probably. Time to gamble and if I lose that is poker hate to bust out so early but in the situation you layed out I'd have little choice. I could call and dump if I miss and try do improve on the $200 I have left - I have won NL tournements from far worse positions.
But if he flashed I get the hand killed.
The opponent really didn't flash the hand. It's a supposition to find out if most people would call in this situation, given that the AK is a slight dog to the JJ. But the opponent did in fact have JJ. My friend had put him on something like 99, TT, JJ.
Don't really matter as you probably know one pair is just about as good an another when playing 2 over cards heads up.
he has a pair why gamble ?? Roullete is not the game
you play poker and whan t a advantage
Roulette, don't get the post pls. expalin.
.
This is super early in the tourney. You have a LONG way to go before you reach the money, so your only goal at this point is the same as it would be in a ring game, to win chips. You are getting great odds on a call here, and the only question is does he have AA, and to a much lesser extent, KK? If there is a pretty good chance that he has a smaller pair or the same AK, then a call is mandatory.
Once the JJ is known, a call is mandatory. 100% mandatory.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm with the FossilMan here. Also, the guy flashing the JJ isn't quite as clever as he thinks. By showing his hand, the opponent can't really make a mistake. All he is doing is ensuring that you will lay down TT, or call with QQ. WIth each of those hands, you might make a BIG mistake if you had to read him for a hand.
Once the JJ is known, a call is mandatory. 100% mandatory.
Ok, my friends were right - I was wrong. But now suppose my friend only has another T400 also and a call will put him all in. Is calling still correct when, if you don't draw out, you're gone.
Now it's even easier to call. You need to win some chips to win the tournament, right?
If the pot odds are more than just barely in your favor, then you most often should make the play, even if it means early elimination.
The main exception would be if you're gambling a LOT of chips on a barely positive play. For example, lets say some numnuts is in the big one. He starts raising all-in without looking every hand. It's your big blind, and he does it again from UTG. All fold and you look down and find something like 33. Your equity against 2 random cards is about 53%. If you don't take this shot, or one like it, someone else will probably pick this guy off before you do. But, should you put up all your chips with only a 6% edge? Or, would you be better off waiting for a bigger edge, or move up the more traditional way, by winning fewer smaller pots?
The right answer depends more upon your playing ability and the quality of opponents at your current table than anything else. If you know you're a big dog to the field, go for it now while you have some edge. If you're a top NL tourney player, then you're probably going to get better chances than this before you go broke (since we're assuming this is for a lot of chips, you must have a lot left, and time to use them).
In your scenario, it is early in the tourney and you don't have a lot of chips. Since this looks like a +EV call, you should probably make it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"If you're a top NL tourney player, then you're probably going to get better chances than this before you go broke (since we're assuming this is for a lot of chips, you must have a lot left, and time to use them).
In your scenario, it is early in the tourney and you don't have a lot of chips. Since this looks like a +EV call, you should probably make it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan) "
Okay, now that explains it. If you feel the need to roll the dice, you go ahead and call. If you think you can outplay your opponents later, then fold.
"Wenatchee" Max
Part 1: it is early in the tournament so you have to call.
Part 2: Since it is early, you still have to call even knowing that he has JJ. You are only a 6:5 dog but you are getting way better than that on your call.
Dave in Cali
So it matters whether it's early or late. Early you take a chance, late you don't.
I'm still wondering because in Jeff Shulman's interesting account of his WSOP near miss, almost the exact same hand comes up. He has AKs, makes a big raise from early position and is raised all-in for 2/3rd's of his stack by the button. Shulman eventually folds even though he thinks he has the best hand. He apparently is looking for more than a coin flip situation.
Anyone interested in a ride to the subj tournament on Sun. Also any intel on the tournament. I know it is $50 b/i and (1) $30 and I understand they spread 9 to 10 tables.
Tourney usually starts on time at 5:30. Generally 4-6 tables and they almost always jam eleven players at each table. Start with 1000 T chips, rebuy gets you 1k more. Call ahead, cardroom has nasty habit of decidng it will be a busy weekend and then cancelling tourney. I know there are a bunch of weekend tourneys this summer that are already cancelled. As far as game itself goes I have had good results (final table 5 out of 7 times this year) and I find the games to be fairly soft if you beat up on the right players.
Thanks Bill missed Sun. but will make it soon.
I knocked out one of the better players last night. He said I was wrong and shouldn't have called his raise...
Structure: N/L, 8k in chips, blinds start at 25/50 and double every 15 minutes 24 people(on this night).
Situation: I'm at the final table blinds 2k and 4k. 8 players left in the game. Player to my right has lead with 4 big stacks. I'm in second with 1 big (about 16k) stack and all the others are just trying to hang in (they all have between 3k-8k).
The Hand: I'm just to the right of the button. Before I look at my cards I peek a look at the rocks to my left (the button and SB) and notice their grimmace. The button can't wait to send them into the muck and the SB is shaking her head. UTG raises all in, but only has about 5300. All fold to the leader, he folds. I look at my cards and I got a pair of 4s. I look at UTG and start to think... He's about to go into the blind, he's only got a few hands left, I know he's a real solid player and would only raise here with something of value, but he's also a bit desparate... I put him on KJo on the low end and any pair over a ten. Tentatively I call...
As I watch the BB call another grand or so I shake my head and realize I should have raised to try to make it heads up. I was concentrating so much on UTG that I forgot about the BB.
The flop comes, no four, BB check I bet 5k, BB folds (Phew, got away with that and am now heads up with all in guy). A four turns and I snap off what turned out to be a pair of queens. "That was a stupid move", was what he said as he walked off.
Here's my take on the situation: Everyone at the table was playing extremely tight, trying to hang on. The chip leader was playing even tighter and he was to my right, so I was always able to avoid tangling with him. I also felt that if I was aggressive and knocked a few people out, I could catch him. I felt that if I had lost to the guy who raised with the QQs, I still had a good shot at placing. I figured I was a big dog to him, but also thought I should take a swing.
So what do you all think? Should have I folded? Should have I raised and attempt to get the BB out (that's the mistake I feel I made)? I've only been playing for a little over a year and have a lot to learn. If I made a mistake, I really want to know.
By the way... I wound up knocking out the next 3 and tying for the lead, then made a 4 way deal.
Thanks all!
I think your logic was sound - you couldn't get busted and the guy with QQ was in a position to play any above random hand strongly.
I like the way you played the hand and reasoned it out.
Cheers.
You're thinking about the right things and there's nothing wrong with your call. Whether you should raise or not depends on your perception of the BB player, his perception of you, all the normal stuff.
Don't worry about people whinging about your play when you knock them out. A _really_ good player would take it like a man (I know there are exceptions, but anyway).
Andy.
I strongly disagree with this play. You called a large raise with a tiny pocket pair.
People overvalue tiny pocket pairs in no limit far too much. Ok, sure, it beats essentially every hand before the flop except for higher pocket pairs - but think about it for a minute! It might be better than any 2 over cards but it is a TINY favorite. Even 56 offsuit is just a couple percentage points behind 44. 9T suited is actually a tiny bit ahead, if im not mistaken.
The point is, your hand compared to any hand that will raise here is either a tiny tiny favorite or a huge underdog. It turns out that you were a huge underdog - that's going to be true a lot of the time.
It is ok to raise with these hands YOURSELF, but not to call a large raise with one.
You took a big chance and it paid off, but i don't think there was very much at all good about the way you played this hand. I didn't even mention the fact that you let a 3rd party in.
-SmoothB-
I think you had good reasoning but there is one criticism, which you already know....
Raise or fold. Don't let the BB have a chance to beat you for a lousy 1000 extra, especially since he will almost certainly call getting about 15:1 to call for 1/4 of his BB, with no chance of a reraise. I would have called with any two cards. The BB might not have been able to completely bust you but if he had any chips left he could have hurt you quite a bit. You gave him a VERY cheap chance to beat you.
Dave in Cali
I apologise if this has been covered before.
If in a tournament there is a showdown after the flop (one of the players is all in) and on the river the player with the winning hand turns over his cards thinking he has lost, but before the dealer touches his cards or makes a decision another player points out he has a winning hand and he reclaims his cards.
Is he still entitled to the pot?
Yes. As long as his cards are turned face up and they are not in the muck he is entitled to the pot. In casino poker cards speak. The best hand turned over whether or not the hand is correctly read wins the pot.
Bruce
If the cards touched the board are they defined as "being in the muck"?
If you mean touched the board cards then they may be mucked. This is the kind of call that seems to vary greatly among dealers/floors. In my experience of 1 1/2 years in poker rooms I have never seem one mucked this way but have heard many warnings.
Once the dealer touches cards released by the player they are definitely mucked.
Thanks
While the answers you've been given are fine, you should know that there are few absolutes. Don't assume that someone else's hand is "mucked" and therefore dead just because the dealer touched it. Rules and their interpretation to the facts vary from casino to casino, and even from one floorman to another. Know the rules wherever you're playing, and try to ensure that they're properly enforced (by asking for rulings, appealing to a higher authority, etc., whenever you feel the rules are being misapplied).
If a hand has been placed on the table face up, and there is no real doubt what the cards were, that hand will be the winner in many rooms, no matter what subsequently happens to the cards. So be careful.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Greg, to give a bit more info - I made a complete novice's mistake. I was set in on the flop with A9h aginst 22 the flop was 665 two hearts. The turn and river was JJ. I had so many outs I missed the most unlikely one and threw my hand into the middle of the table. The most ironic thing is that the board split the pot.
Needless to say the ruling went against me - I think that the floorman thought the board/burn cards were the muck.
The pot was massive so it's a case of a very expensive lesson and one I won't forget.
Dave,
Why do you write "the board split the pot"? Your hand (66JJA) wins the pot outright vs. your opponents (66JJ5).
Just curious,
KJS
I realise that - I was just pointing out that no matter what cards I held the board was beating my opponents holding.
What is the best way to learn tourney poker?
What are the books I should read?
My casino holds a weekly mini-tounament. I don't remember all the structural details of it, but in my opinion the blinds double much to fast, making the tournament primarily luck based. If I remember correctly, they double every 10 minutes.
I am going to play tomorrow ($30 buy in), and I'll ask you guys about it more (to see if it is worth playing in if it is primarily luck based).
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I'm just leaving to go play in today's tourney, but I'd like to know what type of hand selection adjustments you think I should make.
Like I said, I'll give more specific details on the structure tonight, but I have been adjusting my hand selection, I just don't know if I am doing it right.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I never bought in to the short round theory as much as a lot of others - sure the 2hour rounds benefit the better players but it takes a different strategy to do well in the shorter round tournaments. I always thought it was an excuse.
Books. I read and consume all I can on poker Cloutiers "Championship NL PL HE" helped me a lot. All the S&M stuff is good.
One thing you wont find in a book is how to adapt to new blinds and tables as they change.
When I 1st started playing a lot of tournemants I was having trouble with table changes - after sitting at one table for 2-3hours then moving to a new one I was not adapting to the new situation well I have overcome that but it was a chore for me at the time.
The whole tourney lasts a total of aout 2 hours and there is usually only 2 tables with a total of about 13 entries. I know the players from the regular limit game so I don't find the table adjustments to be that big of deal.
Winner is guarunteed $300. ($30 buy in remember).
I wanted to know the latest on the Diamond club situation, Anyone out there know, Lucky, Hollywood Mike, Manhattan Mike,Shep, Montana Mike, Hy, etc.
You should post this on Other Topics. They are fighting in court. Next step is to get an injunction, to overrule the police's injunction which closed the place. If successful, they will be open until it is settled once and for all. JH said he expected to be open next Thursday, the 20th.
p.s. Don't lump me together with those other l00serz!
Losers?? At least we could keep ourselves sober and not get barred from the club, mikey. or do you not remember that at all?
Mike7, There was no inference of a quality judgement of my listing, simply naming the few people whose names I can remember playing with. Thanks for the info.
I've seen many of the Diamond Club regulars since the last day it was open. Many have been seen in AC, and also a lot of them are at the Mayfair. In order to accommodate the 4/8 regular players from the DC, the Mayfair has started a 3-times-a-week 5/10 game.
$30 buy in. Get $200 in chips. The tourney starts with 5-5 blinds and we play 40 minutes of 5-10-20 limit holdem. After this period the blinds go to 10-20, double every ten minutes (approximately) and the betting is no limit.
The first two times I played in it I thought it was dominated by luck, but each time I played in it I saw different opportunities to apply some skillful maneuvering. I've started to make adjustments. I don't know if this is a standard tournament setup but I think that skill is important now. I just think the blinds double too fast.
As a side note, I played today. A maniac went on a tear, only lost two pots in the limit section and eliminated most players in the no-limit section. I maanged to hang on and had about 250 with 3 players left, blinds are 20-40. Maniac has all the chips (15 players, 200 a piece) except mine and the third guy who has about 150. I'm on button and get A6o, I go all in (is this correct at all, I am new to tourney's), and maniac calls. I double through (he has Q4 or sumtin). Anyways I manage to double through a couple of more times and eventually eliminate the maniac. The other player had double through a couple of times too, but I had a commanding chip lead and won the tourney. I think that this was greatly influenced by the fact that the blinds stayed reasonably small (maximum of 50-100), because the tourney was so short due to the maniac.
Why ask, you beat it - so it must be.
The maniac story is very familar to me. I have seen it time and again - Your A6 "under the circumstances" is a good play.
I'd play a tourney like this a bit looser than normal with only $200 and 10 min. rounds you have to make a play a bit sooner than usual.
Being NL you can win by only playing a few hands.
BTW, my little local casino is THINKING about holding a tourney where the winner would win a trip to vegas and the $10000 entry fee to the WSOP. The tourney would be a $500 buy in (likely).
The casino in question is in Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada, and the tourney is still just and idea at the moment.
It is one of the best deals around.
It´s early after the break, my stack is average (I can play about 2 hands betting every street). Forced bet is left to me with a 4. 2 Player fold, a tight aggressive and somewhat tricky player with a 9 calls the bring in, a T complets the bet, next player (8) calles, rest fold.I got (AQ)Q and raise, bring in folds, and the Player with the 9 reraises (I knew he had AA or KK or 999). Other players fold. Should I call this hand? Should I call if I knew for sure that he had KK? (No A or Q was out)
I called him down and lost Queens up against Kings up. In a ring game there would be no way for me to release this hand, but is it something different in a tourney?
Any comments appreciated
Regards
M.A.
If you're still a long way from the money, you should play the hand just the same as in a ring game, only taking into account the short-stack issues (which don't actually affect your strategy more in a tourney, but are more common in tourneys than in ring games).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
A mentally tough fold, especially if you've been looking at the usual rotten collection of tickets. But against a tight-aggressive who limp-reraises, I don't see any option. Otherwise, you are essentially giving up the tourney to play this one hand.
Probably best to fold since you do not want a confrontation with this kind of player especially if you have to lead. Nothing like having to lead with a high card and having the other guy able to capitalize on that. If you had Aces, that would be a different story.
I would be more worried about him having Aces or Kings than trip 9's since I do not see him check raising on 3rd st with trips. I would figure him for pair A or K. Problem is that you will have to let him know that you will not get pushed around, and it is probably best to do it early when it is cheap.
A similar situation this weekend where a player to my left would check-raise depending on how many players remained. I had to reluctantly re-raise him with a pr of 6's and later with 8's while he showed an A and K respectively. Both times he folded. That changed the whole complection of the game.
I've been in this situation many times in tournaments. I've lost many times with the same hand as you. I would say that this is a folding hand. In a tournament you don't want to enter a pot that your almost certain your an underdog. The 9 will not re-raise with having queens beat because he knows that you won't raise the 10's with having them beat. You should probably fold and wait for a better hand to go to war with.
You played correctly given the situation. Nothing more need be said.
Vince.
Vince,
Good to see you still answer 7cs questions once and a while!! Copying is the highest form of flattery except in Zee's case he just forgets!!!! Keep winning on the run in LV!!!
You played correctly given the situation. Nothing more need be said.
Vince.
paul
Would you play that hand or a very similar one again, at the same table the same way or would you vary your play?
I'm playing in the TOC later this month and wanted some feedback from the group. If I had to rate my skills in the three games and let's say my total skill is 100%, I would break it down to 65% Hold'em, 25% Omaha8 and 10% Stud.
I'm thinking I should play almost no hands in Stud and play very tight in Omaha8.
Also, this has longer rounds than the local tournaments. In the local touraments, you almost have to get ahead early to have a good chance. I'm thinking here, you can take your time and wait for the better hands, especially in the first day.
Any comments on how the TOC should be played?
JohnnyD
You should play your chips just like you would in a ring game for all of the first and most of the second day (until you get near the money). Because you will have plenty of chips to start, this means you can make some moves, go for marginally profitable long shots, and everything else you would do in a ring game. If stud and Omaha8 aren't your best games, continue to play them like a ring game, as if you were being forced to try and win money in such a game (as opposed to getting up, which might be your best move normally).
For the most part, I'm betting that the average player in the TOC will be like you, strongest in HE and much weaker in stud and omaha8.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I CANNOT FIND WWW.POKERMEDIA.COM AS DESCRIBED IN MIKE SEXTON'S COLUMN - INSIDE PROFESSIONAL POKER - 7/7/00.
I AM INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE TOC LIVE AND WOULD APPRECIATE ANY HELP. THANK YOU..
Try www.pokerpages.com
Johnny luck in a tournament is mostly to do with the type of table you draw. I'd play the O8 nut nut - Stud I'd need a decent pair or 3 straight flush to enter a pot and HE play it tight (forget the 95).
BTW I'll be there wed afternoon staying at the Orleans look me up ok. I miss the old Az. crowd.
Mike, I'm arriving mid morning on Sat 7/22. Plan on playing the final two events of the Orleans Open and the TOC. Let me know if there's overlap in our trip. I am also staying at the Orleans.
JohnnyD
I'm open ended so it depends I'll be there a min of 3 days. Hope to see you there.
Mike
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
As you imagine, the 7-stud is played somewhat like pot-limit hold-em. Very few hands are more than 2 handed after the bring-in and raise on 3rd street. Don't draw to straights and flushes unless you have overcards. "See a pair and raise" is the order of the day. If you have the underpair, you hope to suck out as you're not nearly as much of an underdog as you are as the underpair in hold-em.
"Wenatchee" Max
They've changed the structure this year slightly from last year. I agree with Badger, that if you focus on the stud (9-handed) and Omaha, you can gain an edge over some players. Many of the players last year had a hold'em game.
Due to lack of experience in these disciplines, be prepared to look at some odd strategies from (weaker) players. It's a real good idea to figure out quickly if a player has a gap in one of the games. This will happen most frequently in Omaha.
tournament rebuy period over for about 1/2 hour.
I have $5200 in chips blinds 500 1000 - I'm in cut off with KQs - all pass to me - I raise button calls blinds fold.
flop Q J 7 - I bet button calls turn a K I bet button puts me all in $200 more. I know he has the AT - sure eneough he does.
River is a blank and I'm on my way home.
I don't think I played the hand wrong but I think the button was wrong to risk being crippled on an inside straight draw.
Comments.
And an overcard the big bullet.
I don't think that his call was right either but he had more than a gut shot.
I had 2 pair so his over card was not eneough but it is a way to look at it. I could have had AK AQ AJ all beat his AT. I think he made a bad call and got away with it.
He had 7 outs, you played it right, he got lucky. Look on the bright side, usually you get run down by a 3-outer or less ;-)
Actually 6 but who's counting since Rounder had a King in his hand. To Rounder, I was discussing the flop. On the turn you were the dog with 4 outs. Hey it was a bad call on the flop by your opponent. I'll admit that in a tourney you don't want this call especially late, in a ring game you welcome it when the pot isn't laying your opponent enough.
Rounder, it sounds like you are doing what you tell others not to do; complain about a bad beat. You are doing it in a more sofisticated way, but it's still the same.
What do you expect anyone with any sense to say, other than you played it right, he shouldn't have called, and you suffered a bad beat?
I'm not complaining, because I have posted bad beats on the other boards-- but I got abused for doing so.
Some of you may read the name of Vince Lepore as the winner of last night's Mirage Poker Zone Stud tournament. It is only 1/3 true. I split the prize money three ways. I was awarded first place by mutual agreement for various reasons. I am now eligible for the TOC, wow. Gee, If I could only find $2000.
Vince.
Guess you should have been nicer to Zee...
Brett
"Guess you should have been nicer to Zee... "
NaaaH!
Vince.
The last two issues of card player dont mention the Carnival of Poker in January. Instead they show the World Poker Challenge in Reno. Has the Carnival been canceled? I am making plans for a trip in January and I am curious where I will be going?
Also, does anyone know the format for the World Poker Challenge?
Thanks
Second chance No-limit hold-em. 250 players with 170 rebuys. Total chips in play: 210,000. 5 tables remaining with 40-45 players. Blinds at 300-600. You are in middle position with 3,000T. Folded to your 8-8. What do you do? A) minimum raise to 1200. B) Standard size raise(by established table pattern this was 1500.) C) Go all in for 3,000T. D) Fold and wait. Please provide rationale. Thanks in advance.
A) and B) are not worth considering. If you're going to play this hand then you must go all in to deter any potential callers. Play or fold is a close one, you still have probably a round and a half to find a better spot but this isn't bad. It depends exactly how many players there are behind you, how tight they are and how much respect your raise will get.
Andy.
Need to know about the guys behind you - are they raising a lot, calling, any huge stacks taking on everyone. You want to see this flop for cheaps or win it right there - need to know the chances for both.
I would say that the play at this table was pretty well balanced in terms of aggression. Noone was running over the table. The largest stack at the table was in the little blind but he seemed to be playing the cards more than the situations. The second largest stack was to my immediate right and had already folded. My table image at this point would probably be neutral as I had been opening/raising about once per orbit. It seems to me that this may be a close decision between folding and going all-in and that the decision gets down to where you personally stand on the survival/hit the big one scale.
Go all in or dump it. If there is a reasonable chance the blinds will fold go all in. You don't have enough chips to make a smaller bet.
Bruce
Go all in or dump it. If there is a reasonable chance the blinds will fold move all in. You don't have enough chips to make a smaller bet.
Bruce
I know this might be pretty late but it takes some time until we get the card player in europe.
In the edition from the begin of july there was an interview from Tom Mcevoy with TJ Cloutier. One thing I´m courious about is the following: TJ said that it was a big mistake from Jeff Shullmann calling Jesus´all in raise with 77 against 66 (given that he had such a huge stack) even if he had the better hand.
In my opinion the call was definetly correct in case that Jeff had a tell from Jesus. I don´t see any difference in folding 77 or AA given the situation that Jesus had only 2 outs. Of course it´s a big risk even if he had a tell, because Jesus might have bluffed with something like JT and now has an almost even chance. In this case the mathematic says that it´s worth a call but tourney strategie might say fold.
Nobody knows what Jeff thought that Jesus had, but I think we must give him credit for having read his opponent excellent, and so, IMO, the call was absolutly correct.
Any comments?
Regards
M.A.
I also enjoyed the interview - TJ is a class act and he shows it with his actions not just words.
TJ's point and I happen to agree with him is Jeff had such a big lead and a only one or two left to make the final table he should have been a lot tighter. A pair of 7's is a very vulnerable hand you are almost certainly looking at 2 over cards or a bigger pair - the point is why make the call in this situation. I'd like the play a lot better if he bet the 7's rather than call with them.
Tournament poker it very situational there are times when it is correct to muck AA in the right situation.
Rounder,
I really respect you a lot, but would you really have folded AA in Jeffs position? IMO it would be a must call with AA, even short before the final table. (It might be something different in a satellite). The goal should be to win the tourney. And to win it, you must pick up the situations in which you are the favorite. AA (and 77) are big favorites against 66. The problem was, he just got unlucky. I can´t critizice him for being unlucky.
I don´t know and never played Jeff Shulmann personally, but I think when a player makes it almost to the final table in the big one at the WSOP he must be at least a very good player. So I give him credit for "knewing" that he had Jesus this time.
Regards
M.A.
You misunderstood me I didn't suggest Jeff sould have mucked AA in that situation - I said there are times when it could be correct to muck AA in a tournament.
The "call" with 77 in that chip position was probably a judgement error - Chris could have had anything. At that point it important to protect your chips. Calling with a weak pair is a lot different than betting with one.
I'd say in that situation - you ought to be playing only prem. hands and not "calling" with less than QQ.
Final table at the WSOP is somehting special and I'd do a few things differently in that position just to get there.
I'd be interested in Jeff's take on the call.
TJ's point is that even though Jeff was right, he was going to be wrong a lot more often. Most of Jesus' bluffs were going to be big unpaired cards, in which case Jeff is a bare favorite. All of Jesus' real hands are going to be pairs bigger than 77. It was rather unlikely that Jesus had a smaller pair this time. I doubt Jeff had such a good read that he knew Jesus had a smaller pair. More likely he sensed weakness, figured Jesus for no pair, and was willing to gamble as a slight favorite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I followed the WSOP final by reading the Daniel Glazer reports.
A little before this hand Jeff took another small pair up against Mike Sexton`s 2 over cards. All the money went in before the flop. I think the cards were about 66 and A9 and Jeff won knocking Mike out. This time Jeff bet, sensing(correctly) that Mike was on a steal.
So it seems Jeff was making good reads, but also choosing a high risk style of play in the tourney.
But calling rather than betting seems crazy unless he really did know the opponent had a smaller pair or only 1 over card(such as A5).
I havent read the interview but the call looks crazy to me.I gather this guy had won nine out of the previous eleven pots which is kinda important.It looks as though hes going to be allowed to get to the last day with more than half the chips if he doesnt clash with the only guy who can double through him and take away the power of the chip^leader from him.Strange things happen when the adrenaline starts to flow like exuberance overriding common sense.About thirty years ago at the British Open golf tournament Doug Saunders threeputted the final green missing an eighteen inch putt for the title.He never won a major.Recently he was asked did he ever think about that putt.Not often he replied just about every ten minutes or so.Food for thought.Then again maybe this guyll win it next year and the two sevens can become an amusing memory.good luck to him.Hes got balls.
I've seen the term used here often... The tourney and ring games I play in obviously don't have one... What is it?
Thanks
.
NL Hold'em tournament. 2 tables to go. I have T3900 which is 2nd or 3rd on my table. Blinds are 200-400.
I get pocket 10's UTG.
I raise to 1500. I get one caller.
Flop is KJJ.
I realize that if I check I can't call his bet so I decide to go all-in. He has about 2000 left. I put him on Ax or a small pair. After a minute or two he folds and I win the pot.
Was my all-in bet to risky?
Ken
Were you looking at this player as the dealer spread the flop? If you were, you might have gotten a clue as to how he felt about the flop, and whether or not it helped him.
You're right that if you check, you can't call his bet on the flop, in the absence of a strong tell.
There are only 3 Ks and 2 Js that he might hold to allow him to call you here. One big advantage of your bet is that he might fold even QQ here, being afraid that you have a K or J yourself. Overall, this flop will not have helped him most of the time, so how often will it have helped him versus how often he will steal from you if you check versus how often he will beat you by catching on the turn or river if you both check, these are the things to consider.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I need to work on watching the other players instead of the flop. I do it but not everytime.
Strangely enough, he claimed after the hand that he held QQ. If he did, I wonder why he didn't re-raise me.
A few hands earlier he folded my similar pre-flop raise when I held AA, and he held 2 suited cards and would have won the hand with a flush, so I suspected he had Ax suited. He was a bit upset when he saw he would have won.
Ken
Mid-late position open raises, it's folded to me in BB. Since I'm now getting 3.5 to 1 for my call, what do I need to call if I'm not short-stacked? If short-stacked? What if raiser is in early position? I recall reading that unless the raiser has a pair, I will be less than a 3.5 to 1 dog.
Thanks for your ideas.
Kate
If you're not short-stacked, and it's not late in the tourney, you play the hand just as advised in for ring play, so just reread HE for Advanced Players. There is of course no exact guideline, since it depends upon who the raiser is, and what you know about them.
If you're short-stacked, or they are, then you still play ring-game strategy, but must modify it for this fact. Basically, you can now play fewer hands with implied odds, like suited connectors and Ax suited, because you presumably won't have any betting left once you reach the turn or river, so there is no money for the implied odds to act upon. Contrarily, you can also play hands that have reverse implied odds more often, hands like KJo and the like. These hands often suffer because when they lose to AK, for example, they're paying off multiple betting rounds, and they're not strong enough to raise with when the preflop raiser is still betting. However, here you will only have to call the raise and pay maybe 1 or 2 more small bets, so you don't suffer this disadvantage. Plus, when the flop is all babies, you can see the turn and river more cheaply with your mediocre overcards.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think yo uare making a mistake putting so much weight on pot odds in a tournament. OK in live games to think that way but in a tournament pot odds are bull. You can't be taking to many chances since you can't buy more chips.
Thanks for your comments, guys. Points taken. One more mistake I won't make next time (calling too loose in BB). -- Kate
I've just started playing limit hold'em tournaments with a 50 buy-in + 15 entry and 20 dollar 1st round rebuys. They typically have 30 entries and pay about 1500 to the winner 600, 380, 280, 225 (pays 5 spots).
In 7 hold'em tourneys (I seem to average 1 rebuy per tourney as well as the add-on at round one completion). So far I have finished 1st once and 3rd place the last two times out and all other times out of the money.
The last two weeks I've made the last table with either the chip lead or 2nd but have managed only to grab 3rd place both times. It pays 5 places but 3rd place is about 100 dollars more than 4th and I've taken the strategy of NOT getting involved until i've assured myself a money spot or get really good cards :)
I am wondering what adjustments I need to make to give myself a better shot of winning once I reach that final table?
I reckon I need to be more aggressive and also lower my starting hands based on the short-handed game (but how far)? The blinds become huge late in the tourney 1000-2000 with 2k, 4k betting with only about 50K of chips at the table.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Rich
Sounds like you're doing well so far and you are thinking about the right things which is good.
One point I would pick up on is "NOT getting involved until I've assured myself a money spot". You will often find that this is just what almost everyone else is doing (depending on how good your opponents are, weaker players are very prone to this). When you're just out of the money, aggressive play really pays off big. No-one wants to call you because they want to assure a money spot themselves. If you go for it (always as the bettor, not the caller) you can accumulate enough chips so that you can cruise a bit more when you're into the money but before it gets short-handed (although I'm really talking about a 9-handed final table with all getting paid, 5-handed you're almost short-handed already).
Short-handed itself is just practice. One thing you can do at home a few times is deal three or four hands, then deal out a flop, and get a feel for what the best hand is both pre- and post-flop. Top pair or even second pair can be bigger than you might think.
Good luck,
Andy.
Andy,
I got plenty of short handed experience in the UK - we were ALWAYS short handed - hope it gave me practice for the Orleans open I leave for it in a short while.
Mike
I suppose that's right, everything's relative. I don't consider 6 or 7 handed to be short-handed because that's the norm in my games, but compared to a full table of 10 I suppose it is. Hope it helped.
Andy.
If youre looking for someone to take a piece of you in the TOC like twenty percent for fifteen percent let me know.God bless.
This offer applies to Rounder only.Sorry.
Okay Ill take A quarter for an eight.I m not going to be there but Ill phone Mike immediately if you want to go for it or the no limit. t
"You will often find that this is just what almost everyone else is doing (depending on how good your opponents are, weaker players are very prone to this). When you're just out of the money, aggressive play really pays off big. No-one wants to call you because they want to assure a money spot themselves. "
Andy,
The above is great advice for the experienced player but can cause a great deal of frustration for the novice. Not that it isn't correct advice, I believe what you have stated above is the best approach to playing when close to the money. The only problem is when you run into loose players that are not very concerned with making the money and will defend blinds liberally. If you become aggressive with them with mediocre holdings you must be prepared to shut down quickly. These type of players although wonderful in ring games or early in tournaments are killers when you are very close to the money. You must identify them and stay out of there way for a while unless you have a big hand.
vince.
Pairs and big cards like Ax and Kx go way up in value but don't go nuts with them. You ought to loosen up here as the others are probably tighter. Use position to steal blinds and isolate weak players. At this stage stack size and strategy are as important as the quality of your cards.
Soundes like you have a decent strategy already.
I'll mention the rebuy issue. Do you get just as many chips for the $20 rebuy as you got for the $50 buyin? If so, you should take EVERY rebuy available to you. What is the qualification to rebuy? Same for the addons. If they're cheaper than the original chips, then ALWAYS addon, no matter how big your stack is. If you're not willing to do this, then you're making a mistake.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think being conservative just out of the money or just in the money is a good way to win. In a tournament with the pay structure you mentioned, I never play just to move up one notch, there's just not enough money difference. I'll play to win.
You will notice players who are just trying to hang on. Don't be one of them. You can build your stack against them by taking the blinds and they are usually worth taking at this point. They will fold even with decent hands.
Whenever you get down to 5 or so players, one player seems to take charge. Have you ever noticed that player probably has a good track record of winning tournaments. Sometimes being aggressive and taking chances will get you busted, then next time it may help you win. But without taking chances, you'll probably never win.
JohnnyD
Watching and playing in limit stud torunaments over the last 2 years, I have observed a few things. One thing that stands out is that the quiet players who make it to the last table always seem to loose. Not that the big mouths always win, but a player who can control the game by his/her words, seems to hold a distince advantage. Anyone else ever notice?
no
OK, I've finished in the top 15% in my last 6 tourneys...but only twice have I gotten in the money, and both times was the very tail end of it, thus only slightly recouping the buy-ins for those specific tourneys.
So, my question is this : if one finishes in the top 15% in tourneys, but not in the money, is this any indication that the tourneys were a success or a failur? obviously, from a pure financial standpoint, its been a failure.
Anyway, I understand that 6 tourneys is clearly not enough data to judge by, but in general, is it worthwhile to note that one has finished high, but not in the money - or is just the in-the-money the only important stat?
Ex-newbie - Depends on why you're playing in tournaments. If you're playing to make money right now, then obviously you're not making a wise choice.
However, if you're playing to improve your game, and if you are improving your game, then think of playing in tournaments as an educational investment. (My past educational investments have certainly paid off for me.)
If you're playing in tournaments because you enjoy the competition, or if you're getting some satisfaction from playing, then think of the expense as an investment in your mental health.
I'm planning on playing in my third crazy pineapple tournament tomorrow. My objective is to have some fun and learn the game. I think playing in a tournament is the cheapest way (and probably also the most pleasurable way) for me to learn the game of crazy pineapple. Maybe the investment will pay off some time in the future (maybe even tomorrow).
Buzz
You can't finish in the money or win if you aren't beating the dead money - if you are finishing that high you ARE beating the dead money and your tournament strategy is effective. You may need some analysis of your tournament game at the latter stages - are table changes comfusing you? shorthanded situations a problem? tightening up when close?
If you want to discuss late strategy post some situations.
BTW a 1/3 in the money finish % is OK (last year I was in the money in 32% of the 89 tournaments I played in and won 12% of them) you just need higher finishes to make a profit also the rebuys can get out of hand don't be one of the loose guys early play quality cards IN position let the others make the prize pool larger.
In the long run, money is all that counts. However, it could take many years to reach the long run in tourneys, due to variance issues.
Here is an alternative measure of success I use. For each level, I record how many chips I've won or lost, as well as how many small bets those chips represent. So, if I win T275 in the 50-100 round, I write down that I won 5.5 small bets. I then keep track of my win rate in terms of small bets per hour. This statistic will NOT tell you if you're playing tournament strategy correctly at the end of a tourney, but it will suggest whether you're playing general poker strategy well enough to win.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This happened to a friend of mine at the Orleans Open he was at the last 2 tables and had 18K of his 24K stack in a pot. Went to double check his hole cards only to find "5" in the hole.
He actually went on the win the whole thing but what a set back.
Trop in AC has decided to institute some continuing cumulative tournaments. They will be held every Saturday (time??). One week will ne stud, then HE,then Omaha, then High-low stud. Reportedly there will be a $100 buy-in. Winners will be paid as usual but in addition, you will also be awarded points depending on your finish. these points will be accumulated. At the end of they year (when??) there will be a tournament for the championship of NJ whereby your initial bankroll for the tournament would be supplemented or determined by th enumber of points you accumulated. I only heard the preliminary stuff from a good 1st degree source.
This is good news bacause it tells me that the poker scene in AC will continue. The past 2 weekends have been mobbed in AC. Poker waiting lists have been long. Gamens have been good. Taj and Trop definitely control the poker market.
Trop will move some of their tables from the horse room where all the horse players would bump into the poker chairs and drop food and ashes on people in the #7 seats to the front. Word is that soem slots will be relocated (slots are NEVER removed, just relocated). The Trop poker room should be expanding somewhat. Sounds like management is listeningto the players, and the manager is doing a good job.
Well, THAT is good to hear! I was afraid that, when they lost the keno/poker area to slots, that the beginning of the end was coming...
Hopefully you are right
It was nice to see a lot of the Phoenix crowd - a friend Richard Tatalovich is tearing them up out there - I also ran into regular poster mah or Mark - really nice guy and solid player if he has a leak in his game it's playing A3 against KK :-)
I played 3 HE tournaments and all 3 went about the same way cruzing along after the break and rebuy periods I was playing well and confident.
1st bust out - black AA on button only the blinds left I bet 300 to look like a steal Solid player goes all in - I'm pleased to call he has as I suspected a pair - TT - flop contains a T and I am out. Here is the kicker I go srtaight to a satellite and get black AA on the 1st hand and it gets cracked by Quad 88's - I had all my money in on a call of the 88's.
Next tournament the big one - I am doing OK - have about $2200 just after the break and double through with a set of perfectly played Q's the very next hand is black AA - I make it $600 3 times the bb and I get an all in raise from a loose player with KK - river is a king and instead of having about $9000 in a critical time of the tournament I am looking for a satellite. Unbelievably my 1st hand in the satellite black AA again but this time it stands up. A friend at the table of the tournament said my face turned white when the K hit the river. I wasn't upset though - disappointed YES but Played error free poker and just got 2 outted. Hell it's the game we play.
3rd tournament was limit I didn't want to play a limit tourney but it was the only game there so I'im in. Played well and got KK QQ AA out drawin all heads up the KK went down to AQ when an A hit the flop.
Satellites went a lot better - I won or chopped 4 out of the 10 I played. Played 3 Omaha and one one.
Mark and I played in a few chopping one he beat me with a loose call of A3s against my KK and I took him out when he let my small blind go for free when he had A-paint early and I flopped 2 pair T-3's.
Good trip no regrets I had 7 AA & 2 KK cracked and only had AA stand up once. In every case I was able to make a bet large eneough to clear out the smog and get heads up with a pair I should beat a high % of the time.
Hell, it's the game we play!
Good job actually. You got your opponents all in when you were a big favorite for the most part it seems. I certainly would like to have the Aces and get someone all in before the flop but it reminds me of a running joke a friend of mine and I had going between us for awhile. When it got time to get into position to make the final table we would both say the only thing that can keep us out is a good hand.
Tom, I have no regrets - I got my money in and theirs too when I was a big fav. heads up. I'll take those AA any time and play them the same way - I liked your "good hand" comment - how true it is.
Rounder,
It was nice to meet you, but I think you need to rethink a few things.
On Wednesday, we were playing a satellite. It was four handed (I think). I was the shortest stack, blinds were 25 and 50. I had 225 left and limped in with AQ. I limped hoping one of the other players would give me some action before the flop, so I could move all-in. Well, no one raised, the flop was A-T-3. You bet and I called and lost to your T-3. How did I know you would make your 20-1 shot on the free play I gave you in the big blind?.
Thursday, we played the limit satelite and did a three way chop with Johnny Walker.
Then we both played a no-limit satellite. You were on the button with AK and I had the big blind with a pair of sixes. That was your first loss to me. The next time you had the button you raised all-in with Kings, I had A3s and caught two pair on the flop. But, I think you are wrong by calling this a leak in my game. If it was a ring game with a normal blind structure, you would be right, but it was satellite, I think it was either five or four handed, and it looked like you could be stealing, that's why I called you. Futhermore, my stategy for playing satellites is much looser than ring game play. If you don't play, you'll get eaten by the blinds. Anyway, I ended up chopping that satellite with the player on your left 50/50.
My basic premise was we ended up pretty even in satellites. Didn't mean to bash your play as it was pretty good.
Hey how did Greg end up I didn't see his name in the last 45 so I assume he busted out early.
Actually, you were pretty good luck for me. I talked to Greg a few times. I've been very busy since, I came back to the real world. I'll post a trip report sometime in the next week or two if a get a chance. Oh, by the way, the comps for food were available from the poker room floor manager. Whenever, I play in any tournament, I always ask for comps. You should get something, since you're paying the juice to play the satellites and tournaments. I thought the Orleans was tight on their comps compared to other tourneys I've played at. See ya!
I have no choice but to agree.
I'm planning on playing in a NL HE Tourney in Foxwoods in a couple of weeks.
I've never played in a multiple rebuy event.
What would be proper strategy?
Should I stick to my original stack ? even if it's depleted by the time the rebuy period is over ?
Any comments appreciated...
theprince
You'll find the players playing a lot looser during the rebuy period - exploit this if it is the case.
Play better cards than they do and you might build a big stack. Add on if you can at the end - there is no future in making a lot of rebuys let the magoos add all their money to the prize pool.
Remember this: after the rebuy period is over most all of the players will tighten up.
Should one always add-on at the end of the rebuy period ?
theprince
NO!
If you are sitting there with say $2500 + maybe 5 times the orig. stack.
I don't rebuy - specially in a NL tournament.
I played in the Foxwoods Tuesday NL tournament a few months back and did well. You start with T200. You can rebuy anytime at or below T200. I decided to rebuy at the beginning so I started with T400. You will see several people do this. I like this strategy at the beginning.
Most people seem to rebuy. The prize money for the night I was playing was around 5k for 44 people which means most people averaged 3 or 4 rebuys. If you feel you can get to the money then do a few rebuys early.
Ken
I play in this tourney every week if I can. It is a well structured tourney with plenty of play for your money, and a soft field.
The original buyin is $25 + $10, and rebuys get you the same number of chips for $20. Because they are sold at a reduced price, I recommend making a rebuy whenever you can (i.e., when you are at or below T200), and taking the double add-on no matter what your stack size. Many will disagree with me on this last point, but I bet you that S & M & Z will ALL agree with me. If the add-on is the same price as the original entry fee, then it's a different story.
It is hard to say what you will face. Sometimes you end up with 2-4 players who like to get it all in preflop almost every hand. Against them, you need to wait patiently for a truly premium hand. Most of the time you will find yourself at a table where you can limp in with no raise about 50-80% of the time. Also, these players will pay you off frequently, so you should be limping in a lot. I probably limp in 30-40% of the time at these tables, and despite occasionally trapping myself when I lose to a bigger flush or other such dangers involved with a lot of these hands, I get paid off MUCH more often than I pay off. The ratio is probably at least 3:1. I would not be surprised to see guys paying off your AK that flopped top pair with hands like KJ and worse.
The average player in this field does spend about $100. I average slightly more, since I almost always take the first early rebuy, plus the double add-on. As such, I'm at $95 right there, plus more if I go broke a time or 2. Yet, I've never spent more than $175 on this event, so I've never gone broke over and over again, just 1 or 2 times. The fields average about 40-55 players, often at about 45. With 49 players or less, they pay 5 people, and with 50 or more, they pay 9.
If you go there, say hi to the guy with the fossils on the table.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
was?
Official Money Winners 1. Darren Hamilton $113,545 2. Alex Papachatzakis 56,770 3. Gary Solomons 28,385 4. Michael 'Shag' Sukonik 19,415 5. Stan Goldstein 13,440 6. Michael Danino 10,455 7. 'Amarillo Slim' Preston 7,470 8. Scott Byron 5,975 9. Christoph Haller 4,480
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Played some tournaments with my regular home game folks yesterday. One table affairs, no re-buys. 8-10 players in each. Paid 3 spots (buyin, 2X buyin, balance).
Blinds are 25-50, 50-100 limit betting, 8 players remaining. I have T125 in BB. UTG calls, next player raises, button calls, SB calls. I look down and see Ah3h.
I am very new to tourneys but size it up this way. I don't think that I am favored by a long-shot. Still, I have one strong draw, an Ace and a crappy straight draw. If I re-raise all in I get $625 if all call and I hold up. If I fold I have T75, the small blind next hand, and then another orbit to get a better shot.
The only thing swaying me at all was the number of people already in. I might pick up a premium hand in the next 6 but if I get one or no callers, it doesn't help me. Should this be a consideration? Why or why not?
(I folded and would not have won if I didn't. Still curious if I made the wrong play.)
KJS
If this is a typical payout, then your fold was wrong. Like you say, you have 625 if you win, and 75 if you fold. Plus, if you fold your small blind next, you'll be down to T50, not even enough to raise anyone out. So, you'll have to survive a showdown to stay alive. 625 is almost 8 times 75, and your chances of winning this pot are probably greater than 1 in 8, so I say go for it. If you think it's likely that all your opponents will check the hand down, then that pushes you toward folding. If they will bet frequently, including bluffing or semi-bluffing, then this makes it even better to play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
As its my last post here on boredom lines blow it out your ass
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I just noticed that the number of entrants at the Tournament of Champions is off from last year. In addition, I understand that the number of entrants was also down at The Orleans Open events. Could it be that resistance is developing to the high entry fees? Couple this with Linda Johnson's tipping advice and I wonder if we have a trend developing?
I noticed about a 10% drop in players at the Orleans open. The juice was high in the satellites too.
What is Linda J's tipping advice?
The market is down too. Wonder if this has an impact on it.
In tournaments with buy-ins lower than $100, leave 7%-10% of profit.
In tournaments with buy-ins of $100-$300, leave 4%-8% of profit.
In tournaments with buy-ins of $300-$1000, leave 3%-5% of profit.
In tournaments with buy-ins of more than $1,000, leave 2.5%-3.5% of profit.
I don't think it had anything to do with LJ's tipping advice - frankly, I don't think anyone would care - they'll just tip whatever they feel like regardless of what LJ thinks.
But I think the main reason is the extra juice....it's pretty high, and even at that rate, they got a huge amount of people. They probably made more money this year than they did last year....how much was the juice up? (30% - 50%?) ... but there was only about a 15-20% dropoff in players....if those numbers are correct, then it looks like it was a pretty good financial decision.
We all know that the dealers are grossly underpaid by the business entities (casinos/cardrooms) that are their rightful and legal employers. It pisses me off that Linda Johnson, thru her supposedly "player friendly" magazine, keeps spreading cardroom ass kissing propaganda that pressures us players into carrying the burden of making up for the slave wages that those poor dealers are being paid. If she and the cardrooms that her magazine sucks up to trully are sincere about "treating players well" as we should be (because we the players ARE afterall THE Customers!!!), she should immediately stop this senseless propaganda and hippocrisy RIGHT NOW and start to publicly acknowledge where the responsibility of paying the dealers decent wages ultimately falls, the cardrooms and tournament organizers. The fees, rakes, and collections are high enough already. Keep your hands off our bankrolls!!!
If the cardrooms/casinos paid the dealers a decent livable wage where do you think the extra money will come from? Your bankroll, with even higher rakes and higher fees.
If it is a beginning of a trend then it is bad for poker as whole. Tournaments are the start for a lot of players (including myself) and, in my view, contribute to the overall efficiency of the market. I just finished reading John Feeney's (otherwise excellent) book where he makes the case that tournaments take money out of the poker economy. Ironically Mr Feeney used tournaments as a way to get into his poker career.
I believe Mr Malmuth shares Mr Feeney's views - though I do not know his reasons.
This is sort of like saying that the casual investor (or insider programmer with lots of options) who makes a killing on a tech stock and spends the money on a new car is killing the stock market for the more serious players. In fact, the guy is far more likely to loose more money in the coming months trying to repeat his feat.
I think entry fees are too high. I believe many of the tournament pros are going broke. I think following tournaments around the country is an expensive proposition. I have heard it costs upwards of $200,000 to play all the major tournaments for 1 year. That's a big nut. You better win one of them just to stay even. Also, it may be like baseball and other pro sports in that there are just too many of them (teams compared to tournaments) anymore.
Things will change or rather correct.....just like the market.
I agree that the juice is very high. But look at poker in places other than Vegas $4 and $5 rakes can be found in many markets -- in the long run these will kill the game faster than anything else. In CT for example they take $2 off the first twenty dollars in a 10-20 game (and then another $2 off a decent pot) - so call the blinds and they drop $2. This is like playing against another player who always wins big!
Meanwhile -- let those that want to spend money and make money (however difficult) playing the tournaments - perhaps as more pople enter the market all the juices will be reduced.
The best game in AC is the 10/20 because they only take a max of $4 after the pot reaches $80. I agree the rake kills us. Most of the money goes down the hole.
Ratso said: "I think entry fees are too high. I believe many of the tournament pros are going broke. I think following tournaments around the country is an expensive proposition. I have heard it costs upwards of $200,000 to play all the major tournaments for 1 year. That's a big nut. You better win one of them just to stay even."
I'm just now reading some of the old threads since returning from the OO and TOC. I think many of the tournament pros who are broke gamble big time of other that poker, like craps, sports betting, etc. Also, some of them don't do well in live games. I think there's lots of reasons they are broke and it's not the higher entry fees.
As far as it costing $200,000, many of them are backed and/or play in satelites to gain their entry fee. I doubt if any are paying anywhere near that amount to play in tournaments.
JohnnyD
As usual Linda doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. Her comments are as usual biased and slanted and she obviously doesn't have enough guts to attack the cardrooms who indirectly pay her. When is the last time she has criticized a card room or said anything controversial. I am getting tired of all the stupid cover stories about a new cardroom in Bumbfuck, Alabama or wherever they are.
Bruce
The buyin of the tournaments went up also. Last year the first limit holdem was 100 + 20 this year it was 130 + 30.
The other tournaments that used to be 200 + 30 now they are 260 + 40.
As for Linda's tipping advise, oh please. I have no intention of giving my money away like that. It is not the players fault that the house is too cheap to pay the dealers, they are certainly charging enough in entry fees. Look at the first Orleans tournament, they got 850 players, or something close to that figure. The entry fee was $30, that was $25,500 or essentially second place money. All this has ever amounted to is, the house wants to keep all the money.
The house wants to raise the entry fee's so that they can make more money, wants the players to pay their employees, and wants to take levels out of the tournaments so that they get to go home earlier. That is what tournaments are becoming, that is why I have played in very few of them the last couple of years.
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I know LA is a much better deal tournament wise, the only downside to California is that the state has both hands in your pocket if you win one.
I somewhat understand the Orleans, it is a small buy in tournament. It is a shame to see the majors like the WSOP going in the smae direction (not including the big one.) It is a shame to see major tournaments all getting in the double double double mode, they are becoming luck contests when the stakes get high. By the time there is a lot of money on the line, the real crap shoot begins.
Anyone have the full IBeam URL to back door it like the WSOP address???
THX
MJ
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Actually, there's a fly in the ointment. Even if the rate per hour is less in a tournament, what is really important to look at is a moderately good tournament players win rate. For example, I would guess that a moderately good ring game player would win approximately $20 per hour in a $20-$40 game. (Note a few people do much better than this at this limit, and our moderately good player won't do as well at a higher limit where the competition is tougher.) I have no idea how the equivalent tournament player does. If he is in reality much closer to break even (or perhaps even loses) than the juice probably needs to come down.
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Badger, besides your numbers which I think are a little off, you missed the main point I was trying to make. I do agree that the very best tournament players will continue to do well despite the higher juice. What I'm trying to focus on are the marginal players.
Changing the subject slightly, every successful cardroom has a group of players that we can classify as regulars. These are players who usually win a little and start games and keep them going. (See my book Poker Essays, Volume II for more discussion.) What I have noticed over the years is that whenever a cardroom raises the rake, some of the weaker regulars eventually disappear. This not only hurts all the players in the cardroom but it hurts the cardroom as well.
So what I'm wondering is whether the same phenonmenon occurs in tournaments? As juice is increased, and the pressure continues for higher and higher tips, I can't help but wonder if the "regular tournament player," who has overall marginal results (and is suppose to have these results) is getting squeezed. If this is the case, I suspect that the fields will begin to drop.
As for the argument that the fields are smaller but the take is higher, I too question that. Go to any cardroom you like, double the rake in the regular games. I guarantee that the short term numbers will look better. I also suspect that some of these cardrooms will be out of business in a year or two. (I understand that there were a few cardrooms in Mississippi when it first opened up that raked $6 a pot and were packed. Where are they now?)
By the way, if the higher juice does force the marginal players out, what are you left with. The experts and the novices (who are new to all of this). This just might mean that the experts are better off than ever. (I have always felt that I can win more in LA despite the higher rake. Similar effect.)
"Again in a parallel thread, some players mentioned a 100% return was their expectation. $100 tournament, average $200 prize. Clearly this ($33/hour, figuring three hours of tournament play on average) is better than ring players make per hour for a parallel game."
I disagree. This is a figure that David Sklansky uses to model the very best tournament players, not the marginal winners.
"Then, for the very best tournament players, a profit of 3 times the buyin is about right (for $100 tournaments, the player averages a prize of $400 each entry). Nobody makes $133/hour playing 3-6 ring game poker."
I'm curious how you come up with this. I think these numbers are crazy.
"Tournaments are a huge bargain for winning players no matter how you look at it."
Then why are so many of them screaming.
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Again you are missing the point. I'm not talking about how the very best players do and how much they expect to win. I'm talking about the marginal players. The ones who win a little over time. Will the higher juice knock them out, and if this is the case, how desirable is it?
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Most of the guys whom I hear screaming about the juice either couldnt win if there was no juice or are winning players using increased juice to disguise much more serious leaks away from the table.
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I feel the future of poker is not very bright. I say this for tournament poker as well as ring game poker. Draconian rakes in California have depleted all intelligent players from playing games 6-12 and below. The main problem with poker is that it is so time intensive. Alternative costs must be considered. In short there are just tooo many alternatives to earn good money besides poker.
Your original 3 to 1 was reasonable for the very best. After all, Rounder said in a thread somewhere that he was over 4 to 1 ;-)
I'm not even very good and my lifetime return at the WSOP is 2.8 to 1 (double ;-))
Of course, thats only in two events and some satellites.
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The juice is getting higher and higher, that no doubt will have some effect on all players results.
The real problem I have with torunaments is the way that they are structured. When the limit doubles every round and the rounds get shorter, they become the next thing to crap shoots. Yes, the good players are still going to show profits, because there still is some skill left in a crap shoot, just not much.
I recently played the $125 buy in No Limit night tournament at the Orleans, it had one $100 rebuy. All rounds were 30 minutes. You start with 500 in chips.
Here was the structure: 5-15 10-25 25-50 50-100 100-200 200-400 300-600 500-1000 1000-2000 2000-4000 3000-6000 5000-10000
When we got down to 30 players there were 210,000 chips in play. Therefore the average stack was 7000. The blinds were 1000-2000, that means that the average stack has to put nearly 29% of their money in the big blind. That isn't right. It doens't make room for a lot of play.
It didn't get any better when we got down do 15 handed, the average stack was 14,000 and the blinds were 2000-4000.
It is a shame that when you get to down to playing for the big money, the blinds are so high that there is not a lot of play left in the tournament.
I do understand that topurnaments were not designed to last forever. That the limits have to go up in order for the tournament to ever end. I think the following would be a more fair compromise:
20 minutes rounds.
5-10 5-15 10-25 End of the rebuy period.
25-50 50-100
So far this is even better for the house. A big part of the field will be broke by now, allowing them to get into live games and satelites.
75-150 100-200 150-300 200-400 300-600 500-1000 700-1500 1000-2000 1200-2500 1500-3000 2000-4000 3000-6000 5000-1000
18, 20 minute levels = 360 minutes 12, 30 minute levels = 360 minutes
I think that the big tournaments should also adopt something along these lines. The jumps are just too large.
I agree - in a no limit tournament they should start us with $2000 it's no skin off their noise and it gives the group a few chips to play with - I have no problem with the blind structure (would like longer rounds) I'd just like to see more chips on the table.
You guys are preaching to the choir. The $2000 events at the WSOP were a huge rip-off. You pay 2 grand and the blinds after only three hours that a cold spell of only 30 hands or so cripples you.
There was more "play" on the Foxwoods World Poker Finals $200 event.
I have a proposal for a Sadie Hawkins type Tournament.
All of the "Dead Money" players would line up against the wall opposite the buy-in table with the tournament buy-in amount minus the "juice" held in their right fists and clearly visible. The good players would pass them as they go to sign in for that nite's tournament. Any good player could sponsor a "Dead Money" player by tapping him on the shoulder and paying the "Dead Money" player's portion of the "juice" while the "Dead Money" player paid the bare entry fee. The sponsored "Dead Money" player would be placed at the same starting table as his sponsor. Once the tournament begins, all the unpicked "Dead Money" players get to play in their own "No Juice" Super Satellite with a winner take all payout.
Any good player who sponsored a "Dead Money" player would have the right to blackball one other "Dead Money" player, eliminating that player from consideration as a "Dead Money" player for that evening. Once blackballed, that player would either sign up for the main tournament, paying not only his own "juice", but having the mandatory commitment of being a sponsor of a "Dead Money" player himself or choosing to leave the tournament area. He or she, once blackballed, would no longer be eligible for the "No Juice" Super Satellite. This last feature would act as a deterrent for good players trying to sneak into the Super Satellite.
Comments welcome.
Hey John I thought you died or something - good to see a post from the big guy.
You know with all this sponsorship talk I thought they were talking about the "dead money".
:-)
Cheers Mike
I need more Guinness.Lots more.
anyone knows?
I know a guy named Spencer Sun won it. When the results come in I'll post them.
1. Spencer Sun, $239,400 2. Alan Colon, $119,700 3. Josh Arieh, $71,820 4. Jean-Bernard Bot, $47,880 5. Young Phan, $35,910 6. Kevin Song, $29,925 7. Hassan Habib, $23,940 8. Russ Salzer, $17,955 9. Anthony Hamilton, $11,970
10th-18th, $10,000 each: Roy Thung, Fred Coleman, Mike Matusow, Hans Pfister, Henry Nowakowski, Bill Fain, Louis Asmo, Jan Boubli, Robert Mangino.
19th-27th, $8,000 each: Vasili Lazarou, Diego Cordovez, Simon Zhang, Gene Timberlake, Ray Greene, Takeshi Kobayashi, Laurent Besnainou, Bill Munger, Yoshihisa Saito.
28th-36th, $6,000 each: David Plastik, Chip Jett, Marc Durand, Tex Flaniken, Todd Bleak, James McDermott, Mike Shi, Andy Glazer, Alvin High.
37th-45th, $4,000 each: Sam Grizzle, Greg Sellgren, Tex Morgan, Jeff Shulman, Johnny Davis, Tom McCormick, Jim Pechac, Simon Trumper, and Steve Zolotow.
Rounder Thanks for the results. It was nice meeting you at the tournament Tuesday. Send me your e-mail address, i'm at lgrubart@aol.com. Ice
Here are some of my comments on some of these players.
1. Spencer Sun, $239,400 - A very nice guy and an RGPer. I had lunch with him, Vince's friend (and now mine) Dangerous Dan, and a group of RGPers including last year's 9th place finisher J.P. Massar. I could have bought 1% of Spencer for $300 (this was a pretty EV neutral deal, since this was when he had T132,000 and there were 27 players left). I chose not to buy, as the maximum return wasn't that great anymore. Although I did not watch the entire final table action, Spencer apparently made quite a few great plays.
8. Russ Salzer, $17,955 - Don't know him, but Dangerous Dan had something like 13% of him.
9. Anthony Hamilton, $11,970 - lost a $2,000 satellite to him heads-up. Very unlikable guy. The dealer had dealt to us for 2 straight hours with no break while in obvious pain (his hands). After getting lucky and winning the $2K, Tony gave the dealer a $20 tip. I would have given $40, since we ate up 2 hours of his time, and he did a good job under duress. Then, when he complained (which he shouldn't have done), Tony took back his tip and gave him nothing. Tony then turned to me for sympathy, saying words to the effect that "Some of us guys aren't rich and can't afford these big tips." I gave him no sympathy.
10th-18th, $10,000 each: Mike Matusow - Mike ate up a lot of my chips the second day. He went on a massive rush soon after being moved to my table. In a span of about 14 hands dealt out, he played 9 and won them all, usually from behind. This rush added about T100,000 to his stack. VERY aggressive player at all times.
19th-27th, $8,000 each: Diego Cordovez - An RGPer, though mostly a lurker. A very quiet and likable guy. He seemed to play too tight when I was at his table, but he may have simply been dealt bad cards, and was playing a good, patient game.
28th-36th, $6,000 each: Andy Glazer - One of the few bad beats I administered was on Andy. I had T8s on the button in HE, and raised first-in to steal. Andy 3-bet from the small blind. Flop was 962. Andy bet, I raised, he called. Turn was an 8. Andy checked and called my bet. River was a J, and we both checked. I beat his AK. He was obviously unhappy with this result, but continued to play a good game of poker. So, don't waste your time trying to tilt him.
37th-45th, $4,000 each: Johnny Davis - This is our own JohnnyD. He is a very nice guy, but he put 2 bad beats on me at critical times, so I've got a contract on him as we speak. ;-) He defends his blinds liberally in my experience, so don't try a bare steal attempt.
Steve Zolotow - I thought I saw him there, and wanted to meet him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, it was nice meeting you. You're right, when Mike Matusow came to our table my stack went from about 60,000 down to 20,000 in no time. He was hot, hitting everything.
But it was still a thrill making it to the money in such a prestigious tournament and against that kind of competition.
Also, thanks for not telling some of the hands I played :)
JohnnyD
Johnny you playing 9-5 again. :-)
Just kidding. Sorry I missed you guys I left Friday couldn't stand getting those big pair cracked any more :-(
Actually, I had a personal situation I had to take care of - would have loved to have been there.
Happy you made the money - I was thrilled to see you and a couple of Arizona guys up there.
Cheers Mike
Rounder wrote:
"Happy you made the money - I was thrilled to see you and a couple of Arizona guys up there. "
Speaking of Arizona guys, my initial table had at least two of them at it--one guy they called "Shoes" who had to be one of the most annoying plauyers I have ever played with, and a younger guy named Chip Jett, who made the money if I recall.
Any experience playing against these two?
Max
Chip is a fine player and a nice guy - I've palyed him several times and respect his play.
Shoes on the other hand is a piece of work. Will play any 2 cards on the button for a raise if limpers but if hit hack will often fold same on the flop. A true maniac.
He never saw a hand he didn't like. I have busted him out a number of times and try to charge the table a fee for the service.
Shoes once said - playing 23 - I flopped rags.
It would be unfair to leave the impression that Shoes is not an advisery to keep an eye on - he has won or placed in some of the Arizona tournaments and is capable of getting a pretty big stack.
I had a pretty good impression of Chip as well--the seating at our table was Shoes in the 6 seat, Chip in the 7 seat, and me in the 8 seat.
Shoes was bothering me less because he was playing almost any two cards, and more because he would never stop talking . If he had any chips at all, he was talking to no one in particular about hookers, and what a good player he was (especially the second part).
He struck me as a player who is either is running well, and builds up a big stack, or busts out fairly quickly. He had quite a few chips at various points throughout the first day, but couldn't resist getting involved, and busted near the end of the first day.
I was sorry to see Chip bust with two Aces against Hassan's two sixes that flopped a set.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
Max
poor chip
MAx Roman wrote: "Speaking of Arizona guys, my initial table had at least two of them at it--one guy they called "Shoes" who had to be one of the most annoying plauyers I have ever played with, and a younger guy named Chip Jett, who made the money if I recall."
Max, Chip is a very solid player. I predict he will continue to do well in tournaments. He's a young, smart guy and will go nowhere but up in the tournament world. Shoes won one of the second chance tournaments for about $17,000. He's a dangerous player. Either going to build a big stack or get busted early. Plays crap, but if you beat him with crap, he'll berate you and say things like "I thought you were better than that"
The Phoenix area has a good group tournament players. And I don't think you've seen the last of JohnnyD either. :)
JohnnyD
Would be interested in thoughts re appropriate raising, reraising, and calling standards in this situation:
Three players left from 67, about 100,000 chips in play. Player A has about 20,000; player B about 40,000; I have about 40,000. The blinds just went to 1,500/3,000 (no ante). Levels are 30 minutes. Here are brief comments on the players, neither of whom I'd seen before this event:
Player A is on my left. Good player, quite aggressive. Before redraw he'd been on my right & I'd come over top preflop a couple times. He's clearly tired of folding to my raises/reraises.
Player B is also a good player. Has shown ability to throw away a lot of hands but make strong, opportunistic plays.
What standards do others favor in such a situation? FYI, the next level is 2,500/5,000 in about 25 minutes>
At this point in the game, I think any official, concrete set of standards is going to be useless. The real play of the game when it gets down to three players is psychological. reading players is the whole game at this point. Knowing what your opponents might raise with should set your standards for what you should reraise them with. Three handed though, your raising standards would be pretty low (and I assume theirs would be too). I would say this: your opponent who is getting tired of your coming over the top may become harder to steal blinds against.
Dave in Cali
I have a couple of strategies in this position.
If the two other players are very aggressive I like to let them bump heads and move in as the opportunity presents it self. I'd like to get heads up asap.
Otherwise (usually) I like to control the table in a very aggressive way moving my chips around and dominating weaker opposition. This strategy can backfire if you run into a rush one of the other guys is having but thats the breaks.
The Casino where I normally play tournaments have recently altered their blind structure. They used two have two equal blinds on the button and the player after the button but now it is the two players after the button that post. One other point that may be relevant is that generally most players are short stacked at the beginning of the final table e.g yesterday the chip leader had 50K and the blinds were 2K
This change has been in force for less than two months but already appears to be favouring the aggressive (previously thought as less skilful) players.
I have reasoned that aggression is paying dividends because "skilful" players are less inclined to play marginal hands out of position and a late position raiser has two players out of position whereas previously there would only be one. Is this a reasonable hypothesis?
If so what tactics should I be adopting? In particular I would be interested in any ideas of the best strategy when everyone has folded to the blinds. e.g if the first blind checks should the second blind raise more than 50% of the time regardless of the holding?
Sounds like Europe - if it is they allow a straddle in tournaments (at least in the casinos I played in while there) I played the 2 blinds the same as in the states except there was no bb just 2 equal blinds.
If soneone on your right is raising to much you have to hit them back or you are dead meat the common steal postions is button and sb - I like to steal from different positions other than that - someone is always expecting you to try someting from button or sb.
As for straddle - I never do in it in a ring game but if alllowed try itin this situation it gives you the option to act last pre flop and can be an advantage against some players.
This is the tournament I play in most Monday nights. First two 20 minute rounds of tournament are limit hold'em. All remaining rounds are no-limit. There are usually 50 or so people playing. $20 buy-in for T200.
You have 3 $15 rebuys getting T200, T300, T400 chips or get all rebuys at same time for $45 and get T1200. As you can imagine most people do all the rebuys at the same time to get the bonus T300. Rebuys end once the final table is started. I would say that 80-90% of the people rebuy.
I normally don't rebuy until I need to, but I was wondering if people feel I should rebuy as soon as the game becomes no-limit? The problem tends to be that I may double or triple my original chips by the time it is no-limit, but people have been busting out and rebuying and now they have 2 or 3 times as many chips as I do. Now my no-limit raises mean less then they should.
Anyone have experience in this type of rebuy tournament?
Ken
I'd make the bonus rebuy as soon as the tournament starts. It's not a matter of if you will rebuy it's a matter of when.
I would try to make my original buyin last until the no limit period starts then do the full $45 rebuys at one time. Why pass up on the bonus chips.
Another factor. For some reason, some players play better short stacked and others play better big stacked. Make sure you know which you are. If you play much better big stacked, then rebuy the minute you sit down. If you play well short stacked, then wait.
JohnnyD
Critical question here: How many get paid? And, how much to the last paying place?
If the final table is 9-handed, and they pay 9 places, then you should probably save your rebuys if you don't go broke, and try to limp into the final table, using 1 rebuy at a time to just stay alive. Then, when you reach the final table and the money, take all remaining rebuys.
All of this depends upon a lot of factors, such as how long it takes to reach the final table, what the blinds are at and just before the final table, how well or poorly your opponents play, etc.
However, even though those bonus T300 chips are worth a lot (a little more than $15 in equity, or more than a buyin), the ability to go broke 1 out of the money and then rebuy is HUGE, worth much more than $15, IMO.
Now, if they only pay 4 or 5 at the final table, and the blinds at the final table are typically in the 100-200 range or more, then don't do this, as you will be so short-stacked at the final table it will be difficult for you to survive from 9 until the money.
I once played in a tourney that allowed 2 rebuys that could be taken at any time. One guy saved both of his all the way until 3-handed. He then went broke, and took a rebuy. His rebuy was for something like T500 when the blinds were T500,T1000. However, it let him survive another hand where someone else went broke, and he moved up to second. He then went broke a few hands later, and negotiated a deal whereby his opponent paid him like $20 bucks to NOT rebuy and try again.
The funny part was watching the tourney director try to figure out how to redistribute the prize money that had already been partially paid out, based upon this guy's late stage rebuy. After that inconvenience, this TD finally cut off the rebuys after the first few levels.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
They pay 5 places. Typically $800 down to $150.
Normally a deal is cut to pay 6-10 $50 or $65.
The blinds are normally at 200-400 or 400-800 when the final table is about to start. With the short rounds, it is tough to play the final table short chipped.
I think I am going to rebuy early tonight to see how that works. I would say I make the final table 50% of the time, but quite often short stacked.
Ken
Given how big the blinds are, and that you will have to outsurvive 4 or 5 players to get the money, you should probably just rebuy earlier. Given that, you should always take all 3 rebuys together to get the extra chips.
If you rebuy late in the game, but all 3 at once, do you still get the bonus? If so, you might want to wait until you need to rebuy (i.e., go broke) before you rebuy. Then, you will get an extra shot at surviving. The main downside to this strategy is that should you win an all-in hand during the NL phase, you will win fewer chips. How well you beat up on the opposition during this phase will determine whether you should rebuy early or wait until it is needed.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah you always get the bonus chips when you take all 3 rebuys at the same time.
In the past I have always waited until I was broke until I did my rebuys. The reason I posted is to see if people thought rebuying earlier would be good based on the NL strategy of more chips the better. It is tough to make some NL moves when many people have more chips because they have already taken their rebuy.
A few weeks back, I had T250 early in this tournament. I go all-in with AQ. Player beside me goes all-in with T550 with AJ. BB decides to call the T550 with 24 suited. Of course, BB wins when we miss and he hits a 4. If I had rebought earlier, he may not have called a larger raise. Of course there are no guarantee's he wouldn't have called.
Ken
Ok, I feel this tournament forum is lacking posts. I go away for 1 day and there aren't new posts since monday. So here's one and two.
This is a hand which I played yesterday in a home tourney, 1 table, down to 6 players.
I've got about T1500 we started out with T1200. Blinds are now 25-50.
I'm in the BB with pocket queens. UTG calls, next folds,then an average player raises to 100, button calls, SB calls. My take is that he has either a pocket pair (anyone) or AK, AQ, AJ, AT. Which I am a favorite unless he has AA or KK. I flat called. Here I think I made an error. What do you think about it?
I think I should have reraised a significant amount (T500)if not all-in to at least get it heads up against the original raiser. I just felt I did not want to go out with QQ at this stage of the tourney.
As it turns out an Ace flopped I bet out to see what the raiser will do and he raised me a good amount. Ther's no way he did not have an ace. I know him. So I folded.
But the flop is not important. I just want your take on my pre-flop play.
thanks
theprince00
By the way, the game was no-limit Hold'em.
the prince00
I would have raised preflop. Probably to a total of about 600, but it would depend partially upon how deep the raiser (or any other likely callers) was.
You don't really want to see the flop with QQ against 4 opponents for no real raise here, as you can't really put anyone on a hand. Even if no A or K flops, there is so much chance that someone has 2 pair or trips that you can't be sure you're ahead until maybe it's too late to get away from your hand. By raising, even if you only get it heads-up with the raiser, at least you then are not afraid of running into a big hand after a raggedy flop. You know that an A or K or the only real fear cards.
If you do choose to not raise preflop, then it should be because you intend to play the hand weakly postflop. Either by checking-and-folding a lot postflop, or slowplaying to trap somebody when you flop a set. If you're not going to play in this "flop-a-set-or-fold" mentality, then a raise preflop seems pretty mandatory.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree you should have raised $300 to $500 in thins spot - hopefully win it right there.
thanks Fossilman and Rounder...
Hey Fossilman, I'll be in Foxwoods on the 15th for the no-limit hold'em weekly tournament.
Are you playing that week ?
Anyway I can recognize you ?
theprince00
It is highly likely that I will be there. My wife really wants me to win more money, and her confidence that the more I play, the more I will win, has really been spiking upward lately. So, she actually asks me to play sometimes now.
Anyway, I try to get to Foxwoods every Tuesday night for the NL HE tourney. It is a great format for the price, and the fields are generally very weak. I think I must have played this thing about 50-60 times since moving to CT, and I've won about 7 times, and made the money about 20-25 times. Read my trip report above for some details about last night.
Just look for the guy with 4-6 fossils sitting on the table in front of him, and that will be me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's a very stupid play I made (I think) yesterday.
This got me knocked out of the tournament. No-limit Hold'em, One table, 6 players left. Blinds are now 50-100 I've got T750 left and I'm one off the button. I find QJ off. UTG calls, next calls.
MISTAKE 1: I called. This pot was multiway and I think this was a bad call now. At the time tho, I was (stupidly) thinking since the blinds were going to double in 7 minutes, this was a marginal call. Since QJ is a terrible hand multiway... So the BB raised it to 200 and all called. 5 handed pot.
Flop came A K 5 rainbow. Checked around. Turn brings another ace(second spade). Checked around. At this point, even if it's 5 handed, I'm pretty sure noone has either an A or K since it was checked around twice and since I know all of the players and for sure they would have bet a K or A on the flop or turn.
River brings the J of clubs (Board is A K 5 A J with 3 spades). Giving me the best probable pair. UTG pre-flop raiser bets 500, fold, fold, player to my right calls. I put UTG on a pocket pair other than the board and other player on a 5 or J which I will win since I don't think he has AJ or KJ.
MISTAKE 2: I raised all-in. A 50$ raise. Both players called.
Well, I was right, no one had a K or Ace. UTG had a pocket pair, pair of 5s for a boat, and other player had a flush. I was out.
I think my call was reasonnable cause of my read of the players. BUT now I think overcalling was a bad play. I think this is a perfect example of how you can get sucked in after making a bad pre-flop call.
What do you think?
theprince00
Your mistake was calling with QJ then calling a raise with it was disasterous.
But you know that.
You have to understand in a NL tournament you are never out of it until you are out and shouldn't be making moves in the situation you were in.
With 6 left - a couple of double or triple throughs and you are there. In my experience when at final tables with 6 left it is rare to have multi way pots.
thanks rounder...
It was a single home table tourney. Plenty of fishes.
No solid player. Therefore lots of multiway.
theprince00
I played in the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods again last night, and now I'm one of the first qualified players for TOC2001. We had exactly 50 players, and the field is actually getting softer!
At my first table there were 4 players who were willing to way overbet the pot preflop, and to call such bets, with VERY weak hands. The first hand we played, everyone has T200. Blinds are 5,5. Two limpers, then a guy I've never seen before raises all-in. He gets called by the big blind. BB has TT, raiser has KJs. Turn is a J, and raiser wins. His stack is now T415, and busted player does a double rebuy to T400. I do a rebuy so I have T400 and can double through these two characters.
Early on I limp on the button with KhJh for 6-way action. BB raises the pot, and we lose nobody, so I call. This call required about 20% of my chips. I flop 3 kings, BB goes all-in, everyone else folds. I briefly considered folding to what should be AK in his hand, but realize that he most likely does not have AK. He has AA, and I win a nice big pot. I don't need to point out his mistake to this group, do I?
At the end of the third level, rebuys are over. You can do a single or double add-on. I have almost T1900, and add T400 (this is the most debatable play I made all night, but I think it's correct). I then go cold for the next 2.5 levels, slowing coasting down to about T1600. Then, I pick up AQo in the small blind. One limper (the guy who raised with KJ the first hand), rest fold. I raise about the pot T600, BB folds, limper calls. This raise takes more than 1/3 of my chips, so I am close to committed. The flop is 9c7h3c. I go all-in, and am instantly called. Don't like that. The turn is a Qd, and I turn over my hand, telling my opponent that I think I just got lucky on him. The river is a red 2, and he shows 8c5c. He flopped a big draw, but I was ahead all the way. Amazing!
They now break my table, and I am slow to move since this pot was almost all green T25 chips, and my stack is therefore huge in physical dimensions. It's pretty good in the more important sense as well, since the average stack is T1500. I fold the first hand at my new table after the chip leader raises. The next hand (I am just done stacking my chips neatly) I pick up KK and reraise somebody. He rereraises all-in, for about T2600 total, and I call. KK beats 77. I'm now chips leader. Next hand I pick up KK again. Again it's raised before me, I reraise, and now the ex-chip leader in the BB says "all-in". The original raiser folds, and I call. KK beats 33, and I now have something like T12,000. We're at 3 tables, about 24 players, and I have more than 25% of all the chips.
A few hands later, I pick up AA in the big blind. There are 2 callers, and I raise. First limper calls. She is a lady who is playing her first poker tournament, and is clearly not a very experienced ring game player either. The other limper folds. Flop is J high rags, and she calls my T1500 bets on the flop and turn, and my all-in bet on the river. She has J9o for top pair. I am up to about T18,000 now.
Things go less well, but still well, from this point. I steal some blinds, bust out a couple of short stacks, and by the time we start the final table 10-handed, I have almost T24,000.
They're paying 9 places, and someone asks about doing a deal where 10th place gets a little money from 1st place. I want to disagree, but don't, since it is quite common and I would rather be loved than hated by these guys (since I play with them every week). Fortunately, another regular who's in about third chip position nixes the deal for me. WTG! He gets the heat, and I get the EV.
I start stealing the blinds with any reasonable hand. I've done it 3 times in 5 hands, and now raise again, but with AKs. The second shortest stack comes over the top (by a little) and folds the field. He then asks me what I have. I tell him. He groans. I turn an A, but he has A7 and flopped a 7, so his 2 pair wins. Seat 1, the shortest stack, is VERY disappointed.
We bust a couple of players finally. I then make my only real mistake. I am the big blind with 22. Blinds are T200,400 with a T50 ante. Guy in 5th position raises to T1400, which takes about 70% of his chips (why don't these people go all-in in these spots?). Second chip leader on the button calls. I raise all-in. The original raiser thought for a while before making his raise. I'm sure he's weak, and probably has a bad A or K. I feel very sure that he doesn't have a pair, and also that he is feeling desperate to get some chips. He calls since he is pot-stuck. The button thought for a while before calling, and I put him on a better A or a middle pair. I figure he will fold here rather than risk going broke in 7th place. If he folds here, he is still in second chip position. I gave him too much credit. He calls also. Raiser has QT and makes trip queens. Button has 77. I have to pay T2500 to the raiser, and T3200 to the button. I still have a little over T20,000. I would have had T35,000 and 77% of all the chips if I had sucked out.
Things start going better again. I usually have the best hand, and it usually holds up. I do put a bad beat on one guy when I try a button steal with JTs, and he calls from the BB with KJo. I turn a T to beat him.
When it gets heads-up, it is me and the guy who played 77 on the button. I have about T32,000 to his T13,000. But, the best part is he completely telegraphs his hands. When he flops nothing (or turns nothing, or rivers nothing), he slowly and just barely shakes his head side-to-side, just like he's saying "no". It turns out that this tell is 100% reliable. I am winning every pot where I have the best hand, and every pot where he has no pair, no matter what I have. I stop raising preflop so much, since he's making it so clear to me. Why try a steal that is doubtful when I can wait and see his reaction to the flop and have no doubt? I only raise with hands that are certainly ahead at the time, and where I'd rather just win his blind. So, hands like Ax and Kx where x is little, or small pairs, I'm raising. Anything else, I'm calling.
One big hand I have KdKh in the BB. He calls on the button. I check. Flop is Ks9h7h. I check and call his bet (he didn't shake his head, so I knew he had something and would bet). I don't think he has enough of a hand to call a big raise, so I decide to slowplay. Also, I haven't yet seen him in a spot where he flopped a real flush or straight draw, and I don't know how he plays them. So, at this point, I'm not sure if he has a draw or a pair. Turn is Td. I don't really like it, so I again check-and-call. River is a baby heart, the 4h. I decide that if I bet, he'll fold any one-pair or such hands, but if I check, he may bet them. Plus, if he does have the flush, he obviously won't let it go. He bets T2000 again, which puts the pot at about T10,750, and leaves him with about T4,000. I decide to not raise since I don't want to give him more if he does have the flush, and I know I can easily win that last T4K if he doesn't. I call and say "I can't beat a flush". He lays down 94o for 2 pair, and I show my winner.
It's over in about 5 more hands. He did double through once when I bet the flop after making a pair of 9s, and he called all-in with J7 and rivered a J. Other than that reprieve, it was a pretty easy victory.
So, the lesson is, play in the tourneys that have the softest fields. And this is the softest field I've every played against. I made a profit of about $1500 last night, and I would say that I earned about $2-300 of it, and was given the rest.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
just stay away from the keno for the next year and you are set.
nice going Greg...
See you in 2 weeks...
(Read my below post...)
theprince00
Now, now.
Those keno bets were +EV! I had match play coupons.
Only keno bets I'll ever make (unless I get more coupons).
Just like the big six wheel, on which I'm a lifetime winner for the same reason.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
sounds like you are hooked on the fun games and i expect to see you pan handling in front of chicken little in mystic when im walking in for breakfast this winter. oh of course id give you what you deserve.
In the last year I was twice able to get 1st place money when 3 handed cuz I already had my qualification for the TOC - I just said give me 1st place money and you can fight it out for the 2-3rd money and the toc.
No skin off my nose I had a few TOC's already and 1st meant nothing to me it was the $$ I was after.
Can I ask what may be a stupid question? How did you qualify for the TOC with this win? Or am I missing something?
Thanks
The Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods is a qualifying event. You can certainly argue that it shouldn't be, but it is. The general "rule", if you can call it that, is that the tourney must have at least 4 tables of competitors. The concept that the tourney must be a "major" has been stretched significantly.
A big factor as to why this tourney counts is that Foxwoods was a corporate sponsor of the TOC. You might play in a tourney with the same structure and the same typical field size at another casino, and it might NOT be a qualifying event.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
54 Players, $60 buy in with multiple $40 rebuys until first break. Pays 9 with a standard payout (first place was $2100) We are down to two tables of 8 players. Blinds are at 150/300 and due to go up within the next 5 minutes.
I have 55 in the big blind and have $2000 which is the 2nd smallest stack on the table. Passed to the Small Blind who raises to $600. He has approximately $6000 in front of him.
He is a solid, but somewhat conservative player. I believe that he has the same image of me. What is my play?..
Calvin
It depends.
Is he trying to milk you by only raising a little, or is he trying for a cheap steal? If the former, muck. If the latter, go all-in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Against a solid conservative player (even on a semi stealing situation)- you are either a bit ahead (vs over cards (A-6 is about the worst hand a solid conservative type would play) or far behind (vs higher pair).
So - how do you read the situation? Go all in if you think you can move him off his hand or fold if you think you cant. If he calls you - you are probably drawing slim!
fold - you'll make it through blinds. Plenty of chips and time to find a better spot.
I need to know his stealing % but assuming he is a good player and possibily has a random hand I'd make it $900 (assuming it is a limit tournament).
The tourment was No Limit. I reraised all in and he folded. I based my reraise on what I believed to be his perception of me: that I was a conservative player who would not risk elimination at this point without a good hand. I realized if he called I was probably a big dog, but the situation seemed right. It was only later that I begin to wonder if the reward was worth the risk.
Thanks, Calvin
Recent limit H.E. tourny at Trop. 60.00 buy in, no re-buys; 300 tchips. I made it to the first table break with about 100 tchips without winning one hand.
Is this good or bad? Blinds and bets were up there and I had little to play with. Should I have bit the bullet with a lousy hand and either busted out or accumalated chips? ( I realy had a lot of garbage)
After getting to new table I'm dealt QQ on first hand and win a small pot. Bets now move up to 50-100.
A few hands later I raise in late position with A-Jo, get 3 callers, flop an A, bet first in and get put all in by the button. (All folded) .We flip and he has A-K. Nice hand I say.
Did I commit to this hand correctly given my low chip count?
I'm sure I'll get disagreement on this, but in a tournament where you only get 300 in chips and no rebuys, I believe the mistake many players make is to play too tight. If you wait for premium hands, just what happened to you will happen most of the time.
Here in Arizona, there's a weekly tournament just like that. I've won it or been in the top 3 several times. But I've also been one of the first out several times. That's because I'll take chances early, at the expense of the tight players, and either build up chips or get eliminated. This way, when you do get a AJo that doesn't hold up, you're not having to put all your chips in on one hand.
JohnnyD
You shouldn't be thinking that you have to accumulate chips, so you'll play a weak hand. Evaluate each hand (or more correctly, each situation) one hand at a time. When you're down to T200 and the best are 25,50, you need to look at each hand and think, given this situation, I am better playing this hand now, or waiting to see the next one (and the one after that, etc.).
You should not be thinking, this A5o is the best hand I've seen yet, so I don't care if someone already raised, I'm reraising! They might have a small pair and I could win this pot. These are the wrong thoughts.
Until you get close to the money, just pretend you're in a ring game. You also need to pretend that you're not allowed to leave this ring game, and that you're not allowed to add to your stack. Given those limitations, how is the best way to play this hand to maximize my EV? Once you get close to the money, then tournament considerations may outweigh ring game considerations.
BTW, don't listen to JohnnyD, he calls raises with T3o.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for both thoughts.
Thing is, guys who called with hands I wouldn't even consider either went out early or had a lot of chips. Which I guess is what JohnnyD is saying. I just don't know if that realy is a correct strategy.
Best of it;
Just played a tournament and was eliminated on the following hand. I wondered if there was anything I could have done better. In particular, should I have built in some safety net, in order to avoid going (almost) all-in??
Blinds are 200/300, bets are 300/600. I have T2300 and find KK UTG. I raise, only one caller (both blinds folded).
Flop is Q96 rainbow.
I bet, he calls.
Turn T, second hearts.
I bet, he calls.
River 8.
Left with T800 I check, with the idea he's only gonna call my bet with a better hand, or he may even raise. He bets, I call the 600, he shows a 7 for the str8 (had A7 hearts).
Steven
Steven,
nothing you could do. Just bad luck.
Regards
M.A.
Unless you can read the player and the situation well enough to correctly fold on the river, there is no way you could have played this better. Very few people would fold on the river here, and be doing so correctly (I mean, you've checked, and that is pretty much asking him to steal, so you would need a tell or knowledge of his history to fold and be right).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two six handed tables, 2.5 million chips in play, 1K ante, 6-12K blinds.
You're in the BB w/350K. All fold to super-aggressive, on tilt button w/160K who makes it 30K to go. Very aggressive SB w/250K makes it 80K.
You have AK suited, whatta ya do?
Same situation but now you're the small blind. Button is a young player; aggressive but seems solid. You have JJ and make it 80 after button's raise.
a.) BB goes all in, button folds, you?
b.) BB smooth calls b1.) Button goes all in for 160K total, you? b2.) Button calls, flop comes KK2, you? b3.) Button folds, flop comes KK2, you?
In the first question, A-K suited is an easy fold here, although I couldn't fault someone who just called against two hyper-aggressives. But note that an aggressive player is allowed to wake up with a hand every now and then also.
With J-J, when the BB goes all-in, I think you also have to fold.
In b1., I move over the top of the button to eliminate the BB. I put him on a middle pair. With A-A, K-K, or Q-Q, I expect HIM to make a move.
In b2., I don't expect BB to have a King here; I go all-in on a rainbow flop of K-K-2 (with a suited flop, I'd consider making a move on the turn). In b3., I bet the pot.
The following caveat applies. I've played against most of the no-limit tournament players, and it seems like lately, the "gamesmanship" has become absurd, with a lot of hyper-aggressive players trying to outmuscle everyone. It's not possible to play error-free in that environment.
First problem - go all in. You can't go broke and chances are you have the best hand. If you win, you're at the final table!
I am tempted to dump the AK but a lot of my decision depends on the players specially the previous play of the SB. Both are in stealing positions and may have random hands. Neigther can bust you and you have a chance here to bust out 2 players and have about 1/3 of the chips in play.
If I play this hand it is for all my chips - I don't want a call here so I have to go all in if I am in the hand.
a) I call. b1) I call. b2) I try to get a read on the players. All being equal I make a fair sized bet but not to large - say $40k-$50k. b3) Same as B2 answer.
For the BB with AKs, this is a coin-flip decision between folding and raising all-in. I don't think that just calling, or making a smaller raise, are correct. If you're going to play, make it clear to both opponents that they must risk elimination to tangle with you. Both of them have put in only 1/5 and 1/3 of their chips, so they can get away from their hands. You will only be called by AA or KK here, and that is the question, what are the chances they hold one of these hands? I'd say it's a close decision. However, you had better not think it over very much either, or they will pretty much know you have AK, which will make their decision-making process easier.
For the SB, when the BB goes all-in, he must have an overpair or AK. There is no significant chance that I'm ahead with JJ. T170K is still plenty of chips here, only slightly below average, so I fold.
b1 - Now that the button has rereraised, I also figure him for an overpair or AK, but his raise isn't big enough to make me fold. Yet, the BB is behind me. My real concern is what could he have only called with, and will he call this raise? If I call, the BB pretty much has to call, he's getting over 5:1 on this call, can only lose T90K more, and can't go broke. So, calling is out. I must fold or raise all-in. Given the pot size and all, I probably raise all-in to force out the BB.
b2 and b3 - In either case, this is a scary flop. AK and to a much lesser extent, KQ, are possible. The only free cards that can be a problem are A and Q. I would be inclined to check. That way, I can see what my opponent(s) does, and maybe induce a bluff if I'm ahead.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In part B, I should've said "The big blind is a young player...." instead of the button. The button is the same guy as in part A.
In the actual hand, the button made it 30K, the SB re-raised to 80K, the BB folded AKs, button went all-in for 161K total, SB called w/ JJ. Board K-K-2-4-7.
Button - Mike Matusow, SB - Young Phan, BB - Josh Arieh.
.
.
This is a follow up question to my post on 55 in the big blind below. How does one generally interpret a conservative player's smaller than normal raise in a no limit tournment, particularly after the table has established a pattern of raising 3X the BB? He had raised the standard amount previously.
In a 7CS tournament at the Trop in AC, I made the following play. I would like to know what people think about this play.
Nine players are lift in the tournament with only the top 8 seats being paid. I have a small stack. To my right is the hugh chip leader (CL) who has accummalated about 80% of the chips. The next player who gets busted out of the tourney goes home unpaid. I have about enough for two big bets. We are playing 500-1000 at this point. The ante is 50 and the forced bring-in is 200.
I get dealt AA2. The CL to my right has been stealing all night, particularly with a face card up as he has right now. I'm low. I decide I want to both maximize my gains here and get people out of the pot. I know I'm facing a raise from the CL on my right. I also know I'm going all in on this hand regardless. I feel I have to play this hand even now, especially now.
Knowing that I'm facing a raise from the CL, and knowing that everyone at the table knows CL will raise, I throw in the bring-in: 200. I figure anyone who calls the bring in is going to call CL's raise. Either way, if I raise myself on third or if I reraise CL, it's going to cost me 1000 and the CL will bring me all in for a raise on fourth, if not third. If, however, I raise myself, I might get a caller who won't fold into CL's raise. Plus I will lose that 200. CL will raise to steal no matter what he has, so I'm probably going to be a hugh favorite if I end up heads up with him.
I think I get one caller. CL raises. I reraise for 1000. Everyone's jaws drop. The spectators are all abuzz. The caller now folds facing an 800 raise rather than the 300 he expected. CL calls. On 4th street, CL bets putting me all in. CL has nothing. On sixth street I make a pair of sevens giving me aces up. CL ends up making a flush on the river. My last card is an ace. I win with Aces full thereby making it to the last table.
I think this was a good play on my part. It was surely a "gutsy" play. I'm just wondering: was it a brilliant play? Or was this play just solid and expected from someone with Aces in that situation, the surprise being only that I was the force bringin with a two showing?
That must have been Monday's Invitational?
That, I believe, was a good play. I wonder if I would have waited to let one of the others attack the CL. Actually, with AA,2 bringing in, Ithinkyou did the correct thing especially given CL's documented play. How did CL do? Did he/she win?
Often one sees a derivative of that move. I have seen it before in high stakes and No limit games. I am sure I will hear about it on Friday night.
Actually, it was the Tuesday night tournament. I really don't know what happened to CL. I left after I came in 6th, which probably resulted from a mistake on may part. So I was upset to only finish 6th, eventhough it was only the second time I made it to the final table in about 7 to 10 tries. The first time was the night before in the second tournament after at 5:15 after the Invitational.
What percentage of the chips do your 2 big bets represent? How far can you last by just folding? If the other players have more than you for the most part, then you do need to win some chips to move up the ladder. How much is 8th place? How important is that money? How much more do you make for finishing 7th? 6th? 2nd? How much longer until the limits go up?
For a typical payout schedule, your play is probably correct. The real problem with stud, is that if the CL has even 1 pair now, he's not that far behind. If he has no pair, you're a solid favorite, but still maybe no better than 2:1. Someone please tell me, if you could, the edge of AA2 over 3 random cards? I know my HE odds better than stud, to be honest.
The only alternative I see for you is to bring it in for T500, as that may do a better job of getting everyone else to fold. Also, if the CL has half a brain, he will also fold unless he has at least a decent hand. Unfortunately, very few players know this. Once they amass that big of a chip lead, they feel invulnerable. Heck, I've seen guys who have only 1/4 of the chips at this stage, and they feel invulnerable. However, it is stupid to give somebody a cheap double-up just because you'll still be the chip leader. To win, they still have to win that last 20%. People have made comebacks from much further back than that. In fact, I think that Spencer Sun, our new TOC champion, had less than 20% of the chips at one point during heads-up play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The main reason I did this was to to get chips. Not only is 8th, 7th, and 6th not a lot of money, with my position with one on the smallest stacks, maybe less then 5% of the chips, I needed to take some risks to improve my position. Though I knew I could leave with nothing, I decided the best move would be agressive, not conservative as if I just tryed to wait it out, I may have gotten eaten up if I didn't take advantage of this situtation.
You need to doublecheck your numbers. You said CL had about 80% of the chips, and that there were 9 of you left. If so, then the 8 followers only had an average of 2.5% of the chips each. Thus, if you were behind the other followers, then you would likely have only like 1% of the chips. If you had close to 5% of the chips, you're probably in 2nd place right now.
There is a big difference between these two chip positions for you, and it will make a big difference in selecting your proper strategy.
In a situation like this, it is VERY important that you take a careful look at everyone else's stack, and do an eyeball count of how many bets they have. If you can fold a handful of antes and most likely move up quite a few spots, then you should definitely consider it. On the other hand, if you're going to have to ante away half your stack to maybe move up 1 spot, then it's time to take a risk, most likely.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ray,
as far as I can determine, the primary variable is the AA. The AAx is a about 1:8 on 3rd st since the only better hands at that point are all trips and AAx+1. It is difficult to estimate the value of suited cards and even a straight at 3rd st. Remember, the tournament ante is very high. I see the point about letting someone else push Rockhard into the money by getting rid of one of the other players. I also think that a 500 bring in would have been an option that might have done. I hope for AAx every hand.
I've read that one should not raise after an opponent has gone all in, especially at the final table. It's more important to get that player out of the tourny than to win the hand. Is this true?
At the recent 7CS tournement at the Trop in AC, I saw players repeatedly do this. It pissed me off but it didn't seem to bother that other players. Was the book just wrong, or in these small tourney's are the players just not sophisiticated enough to know better?
You 1st and formost want to win chips in the latter stages of a tournament. Reraising an all in player is a good way of getting him heads up. Thus increasing your chances of donig just that.
I have had players carp at me for doing and I say fu-k them - only player I an interested in knocking out is the 2nd to last one.
But isn't knocking out player 8, 7, 6 and so fourth the best way to get to player 2?
Really depends on the hand your holding and your chip position and the chips the small stack has.
Say small stack goes all in UTG when the blinds will eat him up on the next couple of hands he pushes in and you are holding AK. You don't want any other callers here and make a big over bet. Nothing wrong with that.
The only place not to raise that I can think of is raising into a dry pot on a pure bluff. You might get out the other opponent(s)and therefore win nothing or you might get called and lose some more chips.
If you put a desperate shortstack all in player on a very weak hand then you can go ahead and reraise isolate him with a marginal hand that you feel confident to be slightly better than his. Let's say you put him on something like a king high and you hold an A6s, then it's o.k. to reraise isolate him. But beware of the possible danger that a big stack behind you might give you action.
As always, it depends.
In all stages of the tournament, your goal is to increase your money equity. In the early and middle stages, your money equity is directly related to your chip equity, so your goal is to win more chips and lose less chips, just like a ring game. However, in later stages, you can sometimes increase your $ equity with plays that do not increase your chip equity. Checking it down against an all-in (to keep in other opponents and increase the chances of breaking the all-in) can be one of those plays.
Yet, that doesn't mean that you should ALWAYS check it down or otherwise maximize the chances of busting the all-in. If it's not late in the tourney, you should do your best to win chips. If it is late, you should still knock out opponents sometimes, depending upon your hand, the likely hands of the all-in, and the likely hands of the other opponents. As Rounder said, if someone is all-in with a random hand, or a hand that does not have to be that much, then you might be better off making a raise to isolate the all-in player, if this makes you a favorite.
So, if someone makes a small raise all-in UTG in HE, you might know that all this means is an above-average hand. If so, then any hand you hold that is in the top quarter of hands is a favorite. Yet, hands like A9 that are in this top quarter do not necessarily do well if they must face multiple opponents. So, with such hands you should reraise to ensure that opponents fold their hands like KQ and small pairs, hands you would like to see fold. Then, your A9 may have to only beat 1 lesser hand rather than 2 or more lesser hands.
Yet, if you have a good multiway hand, you may wish to call, knowing that others will be less inclined to raise, thus not costing you too much preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
As ever, you have to interpret the written advice as it applies to your own game. I think it makes a big difference whether you're playing limit or big-bet.
Big-bet being my area of experience, I would say that you have to tread carefully when raising (or betting on a later round) an all-in player but not for the reason that most people think. It's nothing to do with knocking players out, it's just that you're putting in a raise which wins nothing if everyone folds (apart from a small amount of extra equity in the main pot) and can be in big trouble if you get a caller. If you see someone else doing this too often, especially if they show a moderate to weak hand, _don't_ harangue them not to do this like everyone else - you want him to do it. He'll get caught out pretty soon, hopefully by you.
Another point is that if you have a drawing hand against the right opponents you can call and get all the free cards you want as they check it down.
In limit however there might be more to be said for a raise which can deter other callers (provided the limits are low enough compared to the stacks that you aren't playing tournament "weak no-limit" anyway).
Andy.
I assume that you are referring to the practice of checking to the river.
I think that if you have a below average stack and you would bet under normal circumstances (i.e. if there was not an all in player), you need the chips and you should bet if you think you have the best hand.
The obvious exception is when the player going out will put you in the money. Or if you think that it's likely that a favourable deal can be struck after the small stack is eliminated.
If I have a comfortable stack, I usually check out.
Makes me sound like a hooker...
If someone wants a piece of me, is that piece usually before or after tax liability is factored in?
I think factoring in a tax liability of approx. 33% would be fair, but others think that a piece is a piece and taxes be damned...
Only problem is that I will be left getting the W-2G and they will not, unless I can issue one to them, and show that i have a legit expense here.
Thoughts?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
See title to my post.
Hi all!
I play in a weekly home tournament. NL HE. The buy-ins vary from 10 to 30$. There are usually from 6-9 players.
You get T1000 to T1300 depending on the number of players. Blinds start at 5-10 and double every 30 min.
You can add-on at any time for the first 45 minutes for half of the buy-in and get T500. No one has ever taken that option in about 8 tourneys.
I'm pretty new to tourneys and I know you should let the other players build the prize pool but I'm more and more thinking about adding-on once or twice to get a substancial NL edge cause of the extra chips.
I'm by far the player with the best knowledge of the game. I feel that by adding-on it would permit me to play more patiently and to pick my spots better.
I would appreciate the comments...
thanks...
theprince00
There are 2 main issues to consider here.
First, if the add-on chips are cheaper ($/chip, not just total cost), then you should always take the add-on whenever available. Here, it sounds like your add-on chips are either the same price, or MORE expensive. I mean, you're paying half the price, but you're getting half or less of the chips. So, this argument goes against adding on for your fact pattern.
Second, how much better are you than the field? If you're better, than 1 chip in your stack is worth more than the same chip in somebody else's stack. By this logic, if the add-on chips are the same price as the original chips, then everyone who is a favorite over the field should add-on. When the add-on chips are more expensive, there is no simple answer. Is their value in your stack more than what you're paying for them? That is the ultimate question. Unfortunately, if you're paying 120% for these chips, it's not just a question of whether or not you're 20% better than the field. The math is not that simple, I don't think.
In your case, if the chips are equal in price, or reduced in price, take the add-on. If the chips cost more than 110% of the original price, then don't add-on. An exception might be if you go broke during the first 45 minutes. Then, you might be better off adding on to get back in the tourney, if you truly are significantly better than the opposition.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
were there any memorable hands?
my apologies in advance to any who feel that this message is better suited to a different forum.
Chuck
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger,
Now, has anyone tried to not pay taxes using this rule of 300 times the buy-in and get away with it?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger,
I was pretty sure I had to pay. Just tell me what the point is. One of these days I'm going to win some big money and I just want to do the right thing.
The point is that some people don't pay their taxes, and don't want anything reported to the IRS. These rules all have to do with what the casinos must tell the IRS, not what you're legally obligated to report on your own. On your own behalf, you must report all income from whatever source derived, or face legal penalties if caught. If a big win is reported, those who wish to avoid taxes will obviously have a hard time doing so.
The reporting issue never bothered me much. The only inconvenience it represented was in casinos that don't recognize deals. Thus, if I am the official winner of $10K, they report me for $10K. But, if I made a deal with you and only got $8K, I shouldn't have to pay taxes on the entire official win. If I report it all by myself, the IRS won't question any discrepencies.
Now, the withholding issue is different. Before they started applying this 300:1 rule at Foxwoods, they would keep 28% of your win and give it to the IRS (plus 4.5% of your win to the state, if you were a CT resident). I usually don't end up owing the entire 28%, but I can't get that money back until I do my taxes next year, an interest-free loan to the government. I really hated this one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi everybody, I don't normally post hands, but this came up in a small NL tourny the other day, and I was hoping to get some outside opinions on this one :)
The tourny is NL HE with a 45 dollar buyin and unlimited 20 rebuys for the first 40 min (rounds are 20 for the first 2, 15 min thereafter)
The tourny started with 33 players, and was paying six places, it was down to two tables (six and five, mine was five handed), and the following hand came up.
I was one to the right of the button with the red tens, it was folded to the player to my immediate right and he limped in. I raised to 1600 (the blinds were 100-300, no antes)
He flat called my raise and the flop came:
Kh-Kd-9h
He bet 2500 all in (I had about 400 more chips than he did)
I hadn't been playing with this guy for long, but had seen him turn over a variety of surprising hands. He did seem, however, to be very predictable in his raising habits (had yet to see him limp with a monster like AA or KK), and he was inclined to fold for a sizeable raise after he had already limped into a pot.
I curious as to what you guys think my best move is here, I'd love to hear your responses, and I'll post what I did and my own thoughts on the hands in a later post. Thanx in advance for the input.
Rob S.
I think you have a clear fold here with the TT's..
Firstly, why raise so much before the flop - 500 is a more natural bet here. As to the call or pass - it depends on the class of player. A very strong player will bet trips, hoping you think he's making a move and can't possibly be betting trips, so you'll call. He could also be the kind of player who always bets trips when a flush draw is presnt because he's "scared the flush might come".
More likely, especially for a small comp player, is that he has a 13-15 out hand, like flush with overcards and even, potentially just an A9.
Because you've raised so much you're now getting about 1.5:1 on your bet - I would be maybe sorta inclined to call - but not feeling great about it. Note if you had only raised 500 then you would be getting 1:2 on an all in bet and can feel better about passing - in fact I probably would pass here.
good luck
dave d
I disagree with your point on the amount of the raise. Blinds 100-300, 1 limper, there's 700 in the pot. Call 300 and raise 1000 for a pot-size raise. Raising only 500 makes it too easy for the blind or the limper to call - they'll be faced with 500 to call with 1500 in the pot. With TT you want as few callers as possible.
At this stage of the tournament especially, you can't afford to tiptoe into pots and then "feel good about passing" - if I catch you doing this I'll call pre-flop (especially getting 3-1) and take it off you on the flop all night.
Regarding the decision in the actual hand, it's a close one so you have to bring your tie-breakers into play. Did you watch your opponent when the flop came - how did he like it ? How do you rate your chances in the tournament if you fold and have 3000 left ? You have to answer these yourself. Both plays (call or fold) are far from automatic.
Andy.
You're right - I misread the post and thought they were both on the blinds. My analysis is correct though. Also the point I made about over betting the point in NLHE is equally valid. I mean here with semi strong hands like TT. You need to be careful about (a) betting so much that if you get action, he must be winning, i.e. guy limps in, you raise over half stack, he re-raises what do you do? (b) pot isn't worth fighting for i.e. 100 in pot, you raise 100 opponent calls. Flop as example, opponent bets 5000, what do you do?
In (b) although it can be emasculating, and if you have the reading skills unnecessary, it is OK-ish to pass
dave d
You just have to ask yourself, if he really does have a hand with a K in it, would he check here to try and trap you, or would he bet out (whether he's doing a reverse trap or is too simplistic to even think of trapping). This is the only significant question here. You also should briefly consider whether he could have QQ or JJ here (we'll ignore AA and KK since you seem to feel he'd have raised with those preflop). The other main factor is, even if you think that he wouldn't play KQ this way very often, what other hands would he play this way? If this is even less likely, then as unlikely as it is, he must be more likely to have a K, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My feeling is that he tried to limp and see the flop with AK but didn't want to throw it away when you raised. Since both of you have stacks smaller than the pot on the flop, it would be reasonable for him to just move in with a king. Given the strength you showed preflop and the fact that he was first to act, I'd have a hard time not putting him on king
He's got KQ - fold.
What to do here depends on your read of your opponent. When it is only five handed and you're playing heads up, the flop usually does not help anyone. What you need to ask yourself is why he limped in ahead of you. A good player may limp in with a big pair to get action on his hand, a poor player may limp in with a mediocer hand that he should have raised with. You have to assess your opponents playing abilities. Since, the flop had two kings, it would be very unlikely that he had a king. If he was a very good player he could have aces. If he is not so good, he may have tried to limp in with a couple of connectors, and betting out just to push you off your hand, or he may have called you with a pair lower than your pair. If I thought he was not that good of a player, I'd push my stack all-in, but if I thought that he was trapping based on his previous play I would fold.
Thanks to everybody for the input, as I expected, most of you would agree with my play, but maybe not with my reasons.
I tried to talk myself through what he could have had:
I ruled out AA or KK because he hadn't limped with a hand like that yet (and he didn't seem prone to do so)
I also ruled out AK, since I had seen him play it twice already, and he openend for 4x the blind both times, he seemed to be playing solid, predictable NLHE
I was then left with several possibilities
He could have KQ, although he my read on him was that of a tight enough player to fold such a hand, for fear of getting trapped.
He could have 99, but again, I didn't think he would call with a medium pair (but he would have raised with it).
After running several other thoughts through my head, I was convince that he had a nut heart draw, some thing like A9 to A6 or so of hearts.
I folded anyway, if my math is right he's got 11 outs against my hand (three aces, and 8 hearts, I didn't have the 10h in my hand, my original post may have been wrong). I figured that if I got everthing in there on a marginal call even with the best hand, and got drawn out on, my tourny was over. I figured it best to make the fold and save my chips for a better situation. I'm fairely new at NL tournaments and would love some imput on my rational and my play.
And oh, in case you were wondering, he showed me A7 of hearts after I mucked my pocket 10's...
Thanks again for the help,
Rob S
Rob,
Not everyone is going to agree with this, but IMO you made a great read and then failed to follow it through. If you are "convinced" that he has the flush draw it's a must call. 14 outs is roughly even money on the flop and he has 11 - you're favourite. There's 6000 in there, it's 2500 to call and you still have a few chips left even if you lose. This is a MUST call. You won't get a better situation than this.
If in fact you thought there was a chance that he did have a King, you factor this into the odds. But if you're sure he didn't, you have to go for it. Your analysis indicates that your hand reading skills and judgement are excellent (much better than mine). But if you won't back your judgement then they're no use.
Andy.
I may be playing in a limit HE tournament in a few weeks. I hardly ever play tournaments, but I do understand the basics (changing chip values, etc.) Beyond that any advice would be appreciated.
The tournament usually pays 5 places (8 with >50 entrants). Buy-in is $65 for T300, with optional rebuys of $20 for T500. First question: I should take the rebuys whenever I get the chance, right? To the extent where I can be super aggressive in the early stages? There's also a later add-on of T800 for $20. I assume I take that, too.
Also, if I make it to the final table I'm going to have to do some shorthanded play. I play pretty well shorthanded in a normal ring game; are there any adjustments I should make if I'm big or small stacked, compared to the rest of the table or the blinds?
Take every rebuy and add-on you can at these prices. But, do not play like a maniac early just because you can get cheap rebuys. You still want to be getting the best of it in every confrontation to the greatest extent possible. Do not make plays that you know are -EV just because you can afford to during the rebuy period.
One big advantage of this that I've found. You're playing relatively tight during the rebuy period. Many of your opponents are playing loose. Once the rebuy period is over, they tighten up. They assume you'll also be tightening up. Geez, since you were already so tight, you must be ultra-tight now. You can probably steal the blinds a lot more often than your fair share now. Do NOT go overboard with this. Just raise when you play most of the time, and do it with good hands. But, if you might have otherwise waited for AQ in a given position, you can now move down to maybe AT or KQ in the otherwise same situation.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil Man, is this situation correct? say you're one or two bets above the rebuy limit and this is the last hand before the rebuy period is over. would you make a loose call to get under the limit? if the limit is T300 and you have T325 with 20-40 limits, would you make loose calls until you're under and then re-evaluate your chances then? once you get under (given the above tournament structure) you can buy T1300 for $40 and have a stack of T1585 or, when not making this play, buy T800 for $20 and have a stack of T1325. I'm sure the particular situation (# of players, avg. stack, etc.) would have a bearing on your decision, but in general, is this something to consider?
Yes, this is something to consider, but in the real world, it doesn't come up that often. When it does, it is usually in a tournament that offers rebuys/addons that are much cheaper than the original buy.
The thing to do is to estimate the average value of a chip now that you're almost at the end of the rebuy period. Let's say that a rebuy right now will get you T500 for $50, but you must have T500 or less to take the rebuy. Clearly, the price of these chips is ten cents apiece. But, maybe the original buyin got you T250 for $50, so these chips were originally worth 20 cents apiece. If you estimate the number of buyins, rebuys, and addons (yet to be taken), you can estimate the average value of a chip after the rebuy period and addons are completed. Let's say that your estimate is that the chips will be worth 12 cents each. If so, then if you can get yourself another rebuy, you're paying $50 for chips that are worth $60, for a $10 profit. The question is, how many chips will you have to "give away" in order to realize this $10 profit? If you only have to make a loose call of T25, you're only giving away $3 in chips in order to buy a profit of $10, or a play having an EV of +$7.
Even better, keep track of the time remaining before the rebuy period ends. When it is clear that you are likely on your last orbit where you still have late position, limp with any hand where it appears there will be no raise (assuming 1 bet is enough to get you below the threshold). This is, in reality, only costing you a fraction of your 1 bet worth of chips in EV, and putting you in position to either win a pot (there's some +EV, right), or be able to rebuy and win EV that way. The trick is to pick a situation where you can avoid having to blow extra chips (unless you've made it to the flop and actually have a playable hand for the situation). If you limp in early position, you are more likely to get raised, and this will cut into your EV for the entire play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
rebuy when you have to - and the add on is a must.
As far as playing super aggressive I assume like a maniac - I don't think it is a good strategy - let the other bozos bring up to prize pool - I suggest a tighter early strategy and loosen up when they tighten up later - until the final table then tighten up a bit and losen up as the table gets short handed.
The amount of chips you can accumulate in the early stages of a limit tournament is small relative to what you can get by doing the rebuys. So, why play super aggressive? I would play somewhat tighter than most of my table and make the original 300 chips last as long as possible. Just before the rebuy period ends, I would do one rebuy, if I can based on the rebuy rules, then take the add on. By doing this, you will be very competitive after the rebuy period and it's cost you a minimum amount.
In a tournament like this, what happens before the end of the rebuy period has little affect on the outcome of the tournament. Most of the players that take the add on will have between 1500 and 2500 chips and they will all be competitive. Some may have lots more than that, but time after time, I've seen those players unable to hold on to the chips after the rebuy period ends.
JohnnyD
Niels,
Regarding your final question, once you get 4 or 5 handed you have to keep an eye on all the stacks pretty carefully. If you and one other player have big stacks then it pays not to get involved in a confrontation with him. If one or two players are very short stacked and everyone is waiting for them to get knocked out so they can slide up the payouts one place, then steal liberally pre-flop.
Andy.
In a single table, single winner freezeout, the chip values don't change and there are not the same benefits from eliminating players that you get in the late stages of a multi-tiered tournament payoff. (Right?)
So do you make any changes from your normal ring game other than trying not to get too short stacked?
As you describe, the proper freezeout strategy is the same as the proper ring game strategy. The differences arise not because they are inherent to the game, but because your opponents adjust their play (often incorrectly) to the unusual circumstances.
In most ring games, you will usually be playing against a full table of opponents, all of whom have plenty of chips relative to the blinds/antes. Sometimes there will be one or more short-stacked players, but not that often. In a satellite (which is what you describe), after the first level or 2, there are often many short-stacked players. By the end, everyone left is effectively short-stacked. Also, as you progress, you go from a full table down to heads-up, which requires constant adjustment.
The trick is to adjust to these changes better than your opponents, and to figure out how they're misadjusting so that you can take advantage of this. It is amazing how often people will fold their blinds to your raise, even in situations where it's clear that should play pretty much any hand. These people are playing as if it counts to survive another round, or as if they're in a ring game, where they don't call raises with such weak holdings. This is one of the major mistakes that I take advantage of in satellites. Other people play super-loose and crazy, especially for the first level or 2. They have this attitude that they either want to be the chip leader right away or go broke trying.
You will learn many other common mistakes, and hopefully pick up on more subtle mistakes, as you play.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Single table freezouts are nothing like a ring game - the table is constantly changing in stack sizes and number of players so you are constantly changing your tactics.
The goal is to eliminate the 2nd to last player -
Anyone know how this one worked out?
One of the best accounts of playing the big one from beginning to end I've ever read, maybe the best one.
If TJ, Chan, Seidel, Huck etc., had made the 700K call w/ 77 against 66 and had it hold up, Glazer, Munzer and Paulle would have all dropped dead at their keyboards, thinking up new ways to write "brilliant call, world class play".
TJ, esp. IMO, took a cheap shot at JS, but maybe he was still steaming.
Padraig, I'd be interested to know if you'd revise your opinion of the play after reading this article. It's posted on-line at cardplayer.com/articles.
It's an interesting article but I still think he put himself in a bad situation by making the call. Why risk most of your chips with pocket Sevens? It makes no sense in that stage of the tournament. There' no way that Jeff had that good a read on his player where he knew for certain that he had a bigger pocket pair unless he saw his cards. I don't care what he wrote. He's trying to defend his play.
Bruce
I agree. After reading 3rd party reports of his play, I thought JS played brilliant, attacking poker. After reading his own words and bold claims of his uncanny "reads", I now think he recklessly moved all of his chips in situations where he was either a coin-flip favorite, or a big dog. Putting the 77 hand aside, he won about 5 straight coin-toss situations for nearly his entire stack.
His style reminds me of another extremely lucky player who has had tourney success, Roger van Dreissen. During the $500 NLH event at the USPC last year, I watched this guy CALL all-in bets preflop with small pairs and cheese like AJ for his whole stack at least 8 times.
In one hand, he knocked me and another guy out with his "daring" play. Check out this monstrosity: Roger has about 10k and raises the 200/400 blinds to 1000 from the button. I am in the SB and move all-in for 2k with JJ. The big blind, who is solid, comes over the top for about 6k. Now I think I'm sunk for sure. Roger overcalls for 60% of his stack, but I'm still not worried about his hand. We turn our hands over and I'm pretty pleased.
Me: JsJd BB: AhKh Roger: AcJc (no kidding, nice call).
The dodger is drawing dead both ways. No fear, the flop is xxx, two clubs, and he sends us both packing when the K of clubs falls on the turn.
He made the final table and then complained to Mike Paulle that he "couldn't pick up a hand." LOL.
What does IMO stand for?
.
I don't think it was a cheap shot at all - TJ was right - there was no good reason to jepordize the position he was in with a hand like 77.
Come on - how many chances does one have to make the final table at the WSOP - to risk it was just a bad play.
Rounder says "How many chances do you have to make the final table at the WSOP....to risk it was a bad play." I disagree. Lets take it one step further. How many chances does one have to WIN the WSOP??? Shulman had that chance, and when he got the chance he was holding 77 and his opponent was holding 66. Sounds good to me. If he is in that exact position 15 more times in his life and does the same exact thing and the chips are exactly the same as they were this year, he not only makes the final table EVERYTIME, he wins the World Championship perhaps 10 times. The person who folds there, and then pushes his chips in later in a less favorable position but does so because now he is at the Final Table, has a much less chance to become World Chapmion then Shulman did this year. And the goal of any "great" player is to win it all, not make the final table.
Gambler
It was a marginal hand in that situation - unnecessary risk and the play of an immmature player.
When you grow up you might understand what is being said.
It's easy to say it was a great call after you know for sure that his 77 was against 66...but I don't buy for a second that Shulman was able to use his psychic prowess and KNEW that he had an over pair. Nine times out of ten, as others have mentioned before, he is either 50/50 (with the opposition getting to see all five cards), or he has way the worst of it. The fact of the matter is this was a bad call, and even though he went in with way the best of it, it cost him a chance to win the tournament. He could have waited for a better hand than 77 to move with...at least in my opinion...
lil' feller wrote:
"He could have waited for a better hand than 77 to move with...at least in my opinion... "
He didn't even get a chance to move in with sevens--that's the point. He was getting involved with almost the only other player who could hurt him at this point, and he wasn't moving in, he was calling an all-in.
There's no reason to do that, especially as the chip leader against the 2nd chip leader. It makes no sense.
Max
...what would everybody's reaction be, if instead of Shulman, it had been a big name player make that call. And please don't tell me they'd never play that way, or I'll list examples from the WSOP, chapter and verse, were they all made big bets and call when drawing real slim or having badly misread their opponent.
As for Shulman's abilities, I don't know. I've never played, met or spoken to him, nor have I played in a tourney for three days against Ferguson, Chan, TJ and Seidel.
My secondary point was that I thought it was a very informative account of playing the biggie.
.
Or any other of the top players contributing on this forum?
I never played and unfortunatly probably never will play on such a level. But I think, that it really might be possible to be "in the zone", to "know" what the other player holds.
I remember that T.J. writes (i think) in his fisrt book, that he played heads up in a 5000$ main-event of a major-tourney. I think he held 77, raised preflop, flop came J9x. He bet flop and turn (rag again), the other player called both bets and on the river he checked. His opponent bet all in and T.J. called with 3rd pair saying (before the other player turned his cards)that he knows his opponent has QT. I think, he even told him the suits. T.J. was absolutly right and won the tourney.
I can think of lots of holdings the other player could have had, but T.J. really knew for 100% that it was QT!.
Why couldn´t J.S. "know" it was 44 or 66?
Just my thoughts.
M.A.
There is a huge difference between the case of Jeff and Jesus and the TJ example. In the TJ example, he had information about the player's hand based upon 3 previous rounds of betting, and the added factor of the board cards. Jeff, on the other hand, only had information based upon 1 all-in bet made by Jesus. There is no way that Jeff could have known, with any degree of certainty, what Jesus was holding. The point is that at best Jeff can put Jesus on some grouping of hands, and that any reasonable grouping would indicate that folding 77 was the best play.
The only exception to this is going to require that Jesus has some really weird tell (which I doubt), or that Jeff has some degree of psychic ability (which I also doubt).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I agree with you that there is a huge difference between the two calls. I did not want to say, that the call was in the same category. I just wanted to point out, that I think, you can come to a point, where you are absolut sure, you know what the other has. Maybe it comes from experience because of playing with the opponent for a long time, maybe it comes from a tell, maybe it´s only because you are in the zone and have just the right feelings. This feeling can result from things nobody of us can understand, call it´instinct or something else. But I definitly believe, that the real topplayers have these feelings when they are at their best.
regards
M.A.
..then what about Ferguson's all-in re-raise? Did he have a read on Shulman? Was he just trying to be tough and say "You can't push me around any more"?
Great player or not, he had 900K, comfortably in 2nd chip position, and he risks it all with crap against the chip leader, who will still be 2nd if he calls and loses. There is certainly no way he could've thought 66 was better than a slight favorite or big dog. Maybe he misread Shulman as being able to make a big laydown. I think this was similar to TJ's pre-flop raise against McBride in '98, although at least Ferguson pushed it all in.
BillM wrote: > ..then what about Ferguson's all-in re-raise? Did he > have a read on Shulman?
He didn't need a read. Shulman had been raising almost every hand for a good while. It was clear that he was not waiting for big hands, or even the likely best hand, before making his raises. And I'm not inferring that this is wrong. If the table is letting you get away with these raises, then you should make them, whether or not you're the chip leader.
> Was he just trying to be tough and say "You can't > push me around any more"?
Exactly. He is the only guy who can hurt Shulman. And he wants Shulman to know that you can't just steal my blind every time, you had better have a real hand. The intent is not to get it all-in right now this hand, but to tell Shulman to back off when Chris is in the blind. If successful, then Chris is in a much better position to move forward in chips by also stealing blinds, and won't be losing what he steal to Shulman every orbit.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good points, Greg. I think this was similar to the Noel Furlong and Huck Seed showdowns of 1999. Even before the pivotal hand, these guys were gunning for each other, trying to establish table dominance. Only one guy can muscle his way through to the end and steal the event.
You, know, this town isn't big enough for the two us. The toughest kids on the block beating each other's brains out instead of preying on the weak, and unarmed.
It worked for Noel, and Chris obviously thought he had to take a stand.
This hand took place in a rebuy tournament during the 3rd round - I have 88 flop comes 678 2 suited. I am heads up with a guy who showed down a couple of times with suited connected cards he played out of position.
He bet I raised he reiaised - I am worried about a straight.
I checked it to the river worried about a check raise.
Was I a bit to caucious. I don't know what he had but I think it was 2 pair. I usually play a set really aggressive - I read him hitting the flop.
It cost me at least 1 maybe 2 bb.
What position, who raised before the flop, and other stuff like that. Otherwise, I can't answer it.
if you can still rebuy i would think you need to be much more aggressive.
if checked to you on turn i think you need to bet and see if you get raised, regardless.
brad
If he checked the turn than I would almost always bet. He wouldn't want you to check behind him if he had the straight. It's possible he would check the non-nut straight fearing the nut straight, but he would definetly bet the river if you checked the turn considering that you would bet the nut straight on the turn.
I would you should probably bet the turn, but most definetly bet the river.
I played this hand like Sister Mary.
Weak - not my usual styal and that is why I posted it. I never fear a check raise but I kind of froze on this one. I don't think I lost much here but could have giving all the free cards.
I was recently in a limit hold em tournament, with one optional rebuy. 120 players, 110 entry and 100 rebuy, top ten places pay. We're down to 2 tables 6 at mine, 5 at the other. The blinds are 1000, 2000 and the betting is 2 and 4. I'm in the big blind with pocket aces, I have about 20,000 in chips, and its folded to the button who calls(I have no clue on this guys play, and it seems he doesn't either) he has about 15,000 in chips, the sb (lol with literally a mountain of chips I'd say at least 50% of whats in play) calls and i raise. Both call and we see the flop of Th, Js , Ac. The SB bets out, I raise, the button reraises and the SB caps it. Its 4,000 to me if I fold now i'll have 12,000 in chips wich is enough to still play strong. I doubt the SB would have bet into me without having KQ, and I'm almost positive she wouldn't cap it without the straight. Can I release my hand here? I didn't, I called to see the Qc on the turn. The SB checks?? I check as well and now the button bets his last 3800 or so chips and the sb calls. Should I release now, leaving myself with 8000 chips? I didn't I called to see a blank on the river, the SB checked, and I bet my last 4000 assuming that she couldn't have had a straight as she checked the turn and river representing that she was scared of a straight. I'm curious if anyone else would have gotten away from this hand, as it turns out she did in fact flop the nut straight, and the button had JT for 2 pair.
You said,"I'm almost positive she wouldn't cap it without the straight. Can I release my hand here?"
Since, you probably have been watching how your opponents have been playing I would stick to what I thought. Release your hand. You don't want to fight it out at this point.
It's really a bad flop for your hand. Since, you did not get reraised preflop, they are canidates for the hands that showed up at the river.
My tendency would be to call, since you have the full house draw, and it's become a big pot. But, if it is very important to you to get some money back, and it is highly likely that you'll at least limp into 10th place by folding on the flop, then that is a very legitimate play.
The only part of your play that I really hate is the river bet. Even if you're confident you've got the SB beat, don't put in your last chips in this spot. By checking behind the button, you would have survived, and maybe still gotten that 10th place money. If you win that extra bet, the extra EV that it gives you is probably nowhere near what you'll win for 10th place.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have posted a couple of trip reports on my website. These cover my (un)exciting adventures in the first two events of the EPPA festival in my local club. I am entering the £250 Stud tonight so hopefully I will have a story or two from that tomorrow. Click below (hope this works) for the link.
Andy.
PS If anyone has any questions or comments on my play I'd be happy to discuss them.
Andy.
Andy,
Your reports were fun to read, but tell me what's "scrum"?
Mah - I agree. Very interesting "trip" reports. Andy's writing style reminds me of Roy Cooke's style. Enjoyable reading!
"Scrum," I think, is a term from rugby. It occurs at the start of a play when the two teams are crawling around in the mud with elbows flying (and the opposing players possibly punching, kicking and biting each other while jockeying for position) and with the ball in the middle of the pile. What goes on in a scrum is just speculation on my part, but once while my wife was dragging me around visiting castles in the British Isles we stayed at the same place as the Wales national rugby team. My recollection is that the Wlaes rugby team members mostly resembled NFL defensive linemen, and that maybe they had all been bitten a time or two, possibly in a scrum.
My guess is "scrum" as used by Andy means "wild melee."
Buzz
Glad you liked the reports. There's one more comp to go tonight and I might post a few more in future as I enjoyed writing them.
Andy.
Jesus Andy what's happened to you. When I last spoke to you (May?) you were a wide-eyed, God-fearing respectable £20/rebuy guy. I turn my back for one second and you're mixing it with the Devilfish in a £250/rebuy. The worm has definitely turned.
Well done mate.
I'm sorry things didn't turn out better for you, but at least you made a decent run at it in the £250 stud event. As I'm not a stud player - and not even much of a tournament player, I can't offer any specific advice there. As far as the Hold 'Em event is concerned you felt that you may have played too tightly (personally I think I would have held onto those aces a while longer but that's by the by) and when this is combined with a bad run of cards it can spell doom. It seems to me that a key part of any successful players' tactical arsenal is the ability to survive these droughts. But I have no idea how they do it. Whenever I'm in this situation the same thing always happens; I have a Homer Simpson moment. My eyes roll heavenwards and my brain slurs to me 'Must. Steal. More. SSttttteeeaaaaaalllllll.' Then I throw my chips in, my cheese gets called and I'm out. I assume it's just a case of developing better reading skills and picking my moments to act a little more prudently. Or is there more to it than that?
Anyway Andy, thanks for the reports - if you enter anymore of the events I wish you success. And I WILL get down to Luton one weekend soon. I better - at this rate in two months time you'll have decamped to the $50,000 game at the Bellagio.
Cheers,
mike cunningham
Cheers Mike,
Drop me an E-mail beforehand if you're coming up Luton way and I'll buy you a drink.
Regarding your comments, only one quibble - never God-fearing, not me :-). Surviving those card droughts is one of the absoluate keys to winning tournament play. When I figure it out I'll, well keep it to myself probably, but actually a lot of it is the ability to sense weakness in the players on your left, which is something I need to work hard on.
Andy.
I know this is going to sound offending, but here it is anyway :
I recently played in a tournament with this guy Super Mario Esquerra (sp?), and based off of his play, I think he's a pretty poor player, and definitely one of the brightest bulbs in the room. Yet, it seems he regularly comes in the money in tournaments.
What am I missing?
I played a super satellite with him at commerce earlier this year. He was all in on every hand and rebuying on every hand he rebought 15 or so times in the 1st 1/2 hour then got up and left. I suspect he was trying to "get lucky" early but it didn't work.
BTW - 40 started that one and I ended up heads up with John Bonetti - Now there is a piece of work.
Based upon my brief encounters with him in tourneys, Mario is exemplary of the breed of player who do well in tourneys but whose play is disdained.
He is super fast, super aggressive, plays too many hands, but does play them with some degree of skill. While he is not great at sensing when you're trapping him, he is great at sensing when you're weak and he can blow you off the pot. He is comparable to Barbara Enright, John Bonetti, and quite a few others.
Of course, I only played with him briefly on a couple of occasions, and he may have fooled me. But, the above is my current read on his play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mario is like your average tournament player, he can't play a lick in a ring game, but seems to do very well on the tourney circuit. Keep in mind he does enter just about every tournament frome a $25 buy in to the WSOP and he typically will take advantage of rebuys. Still I do see his name in the money quite a bit and based on his level of play, I like you am probably missing something.
Bruce
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Your dreaming!
How do you know this about him?
How much does he play in these games? I would think he plays in way too many tourneys to put in enough hours in live games to say much about his hourly rate.
If he has such a huge hourly rate in these games then why has he not moved up to higher limits? Or has he? I'm not saying he couldn't have a perfectly good reason for not moving up. But the question does occur to me.
How many (20-40 and 30-60 playing) posters' hourly rates do you know?
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IMO, the rest of this has nowhere to go, but I'll respond to this one item:
"Why would somebody making a huge hourly rate in a mid-limit game want to move up to higher limits?"
To make more money?
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If you can achieve a better hourly rate than anyone on this forum at a limit like 30-60 in LA, then you would arguably be one of the best 30-60 players in LA. In that case, there's no question you can make more at 80-160.
You're not missing anything. He's probably a big loser in tournaments. There's no way his money finishes could possibly make up for all of the rebuys that I've seen him make. Not only that, he never seems to place high in the bigger tournaments. He's a poor man's Bonetti.
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He must have played in tens of thousands of small buy-in tournaments that none of us ever get to read about. I never missed a copy of CardPlayer since 1995 and I swear Super Mario's gross winnings don't make it past half a million.
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I don't know him personally, although I've played against him many times. I've seen him play very well, and I've seen him play very bad. From what I've seen, his best game is NL. He seems to be a tournament specialist, which isn't necessarily an insult. A lot of successful tourney players will try to amass a large stack early and some, including Mario, have the experience and ability to outplay you with it. You saw the flip side of that strategy -- a lot of players can play a great game with a big stack, but few can play competently with a small stack. If you critique someone as a "poor" player based on what you see once at a tourney table (particularly one with rebuys), I'd reckon that most tourney players would eventually fall in that category. Which is why they are regularly scorned here.
Tournament players are not real poker players. They're just chip shovers. 90% of all tournaments reward the muscular system (pushing one's big stack in order to bully shortstacks) not the nervous system (strategizing, making long term plays).
Triple H "Tournament players are not real poker players"
I think we all agree that tournaments require diferent skills than live play....but it's silly to say tournament players are not real poker players. If you are a marathon runner, would you say a sprinter is not a runner.....they are just a diferent kind of runner.
JohnnyD
Playing too loose and too aggressive is a strategy that many successful tournament players use. Unfortunately for most of them, they play the same way in a side game and have poor results. Part of the reason for this is that in a tournament many hands are played all-in before the river, thus the ability to play well on every street is not as important.
As for Super Mario, I suspect that he is playing the tournaments much better than you think. But it should be obvious that playing the same way in a full ring game doesn't get it.
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"As many of you know, I hate gambling and don't even play poker with my own money"
I just thought that was an interesting statement.
Playing with OPM is the only way to make a consistent living in tournaments. And be sure not to have one of those McEvoy-Hellmuth/Bronstein deals where once the horse wins money, the past lost buy ins gets deducted from the horse's current share.
It also helps to explain the hostility when anyone questions or says anything that can be interpreted as being negative towards tournaments.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Gambling Theory and Other Topics happens to have the best discussion of tournament theory in print. It's so comprehensive (yet brief), you won't really need to read any other book on the subject to gain extra knowledge.
"Mario is one of those players... in a tournament or ring game... where if he drops a chip on the floor, he finds two down there."
Please clarify?
"That said, he has a hole in his game the size of the Grand Canyon -- his temper."
Isn't this is quite antithetical to your comment earlier in the thread about his very high hourly rate? I mean players with serious tilt problems tend to be unable to achieve high hourly rates because of what they steam off. If he's a great player he might still be able to win, but with this huge tilt hole in his game he could not make it to the upper reaches of hourly rate. (I don't think I've ever played with him, but had heard things similar to Bruce's and others' comments.)
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Thanks for all the comments everyone. I think based off of the info I've received and my personal experience playing at his table, and hearing what he's said, I've formed a well founded opinion of the guy's play.
There was a Mario Esquerra who ran one of the big Indian casinos for a number of years. A very high paying job, or so I heard. He was younger than the guy you're talking about. Would he be the son of Mario the tournament player?
A few weeks ago in the Tuesday tournament at Foxwoods that Fossilman has made famous, I found myself in the nice spot of having a very big stack early in the tournament due to a set of eights and AA before the flop. My question is what is the best way to play my big stack? This was my second NL tourney and I knew enough to be aggresive with my stack and put pressure on people, but it seem to backfire a little bit and I lost a few fairly big pots that I probably shouldn't have been in. People started to check raise me because they were confident that I would bet.
I ended up going to the final table a little short stacked and came in 7th, but I think I could have done better if I had played my big stack correctly.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Hi!
I'm not an expert here.
I fugure that if you are you are fortunate enough to build a good lead then the word here is PATIENCE.
Wait for premiums. Then pound...
What should make a difference in your choice of hand to play and HOW you play the hand is who you are playing (good or weak player) and most importantly the size of the stack of the other opponent. You don't want to go overboard against a big stack that could take you out.
This also depends on the structure of the tournament and how large is your stack.
The larger your stack to the blinds then you can be more difficult and less willing to gamble.
But when you do get a good hand, hammer, hammer hard, use that stack to kill.
That's how I see it.
theprince00
At the bottom line, you play every stack the same, you pick the play that will maximize your money. During the early and middle stages, maximizing your money and your chip count go step-in-step. Thus, you play your big stack in whatever way grows it the best.
If players are backing down and letting you steal preflop easily, then do so. If they're playing with you, then you need to wait for spots where you're the favorite. If they're calling preflop but letting go of too easily postflop, then you can again play more hands, but must be sure to fire that second barrel postflop.
Again, you must adapt to your opponents. Since too many of these guys in this tournament are too loose, you will not be able to run them all over at a full table. Once you get to the final table, or the 5-6-handed portion of the last 2 tables, then you can probably get away with more theft, since you've lost most (not all) of the loosest players. Gauge each situation one-at-a-time, taking into account who's still in the hand, their recent play, your recent play, etc., and make your best guess as to the correct play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Nice to get your input Greg.
I will see you at Foxwoods on Tuesday night.
theprince
The other issue with Foxwoods is that with an early big stack, I would nurse it till the rebuy period is over and the real poker starts. Before that every body is gambling.
I personally think that a reasonable strategy at this tournament is to get chipped off during the rebuy period, do a triple buy at the end and then start playing poker properly.
That strategy gives up too much EV. You can often limp in preflop for no raise, and then find someone to pay you off for their entire stack when you have the nuts. While it's also true that sometimes they go all-in preflop with mediocre hands, there is also a lot of limping. What is least common is to have someone make a pot-sized raise and play the hand heads-up. That is what happens after the rebuys are over.
I would guess that I am averaging a profit of about $150-200 per week in this tourney (I keep intending to separate this out from my other tourney records and get a precise number), and that close to 40% of that is won during the rebuy period. So, the only time I have not played my stack during the rebuy period is when I have been in a live action NL HE game that offered more EV. On that night, I waited until the end of the rebuy period before playing my stack, and did a triple buy as you suggest. However, I don't think anyone has as much EV in the regular limit HE ring games at FW as they should in this tourney for the same time period.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is the final event this year and it's down to ~40 players. Everyone passes and the SB makes a T15000 raise. He has roughly T200,000. He is a solid player. My friend holds AKo in the big blind and has about T180,000. The big blind is a successful high limit player. He has one previous final table appearance in the big event. What do you do? Results to follow.
Bruce
Not sure what the antes, and blinds were, but I would make a pot-sized rasie to something like 70 or 80k, unless the SB isn't steal prone. Most aggressive players would play something like Ax, or KQ, or a medium pair pretty strong from the SB. I know I would. If he moves in on me, I am prepared to go for all my chips in this spot.
A reraise to 70 might be enough to make him fold something like pocet sixes (which I want him to), but leaves me enough chips to get away from the hand on the flop if he calls, and moves in on a ragged flop. It also leaves me enough to use my position and possibly take it down if I miss, but sense weakness on the flop.
Fortune favors the brave, especially against a steal-position raise.
I essentially agree with Mike, but I would only raise to about 50K. That is slightly more than a pot-sized raise, and leaves you enough chips to bet slightly more than the pot after the flop. I also would be inclined to go all-in if rereraised. Unless I know him well enough to know he has AA or KK to do that.
After the flop, hmmm. It will miss me most of the time, and him too. If he bets me all-in and I have nothing but overcards, I probably need to fold, but don't like it, especially if the flop is all below ten. I hate folding to AQ or AJ here. If he checks, I probably need to go all-in myself, despite the fact that he would also likely check if he flopped big to trap me. I just don't want to give a free card to a worse hand, or motivate him to bet the turn when another little card hits.
A good alternative play to all of this would be to just call preflop, and see what comes. By just calling, he may let you double up safely when you and he both catch a pair on the flop. While this is risky, because you haven't defined his hand and pretty much any flop might hit him, it is probably less risky than the strategy above. Unfortunately, it is probably also less profitable than above as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I vote for moving in. If he's lucky enough to have AA or KK in that situation, so be it. You didn't mention antes/blinds, but I guess there's about 20,000 in the pot, which is worth picking up. If he's got anything other than those two hands, he'll have a tough decision and if he calls, I get to see all five cards rather than face a probable hard decision on the flop.
Going all in is certainly better than calling. My thinking was based on the description of the SB as "solid" and "successful high limit player". This made me picture a Seidel or Lederer type opponent, as opposed to a super-aggressive Bonetti/Esquerra/Matusow type.
If the SB was of this later ilk, or had been trying to steal from me repeatedly earlier, I beat him into the pot with my whole stack.
Before looking at any other responses, I'd've re-raised to 50K, then folded if he goes all in.
One important unknown variable here is if the two have tangled alone in the blinds previously.
My rationale for thinking that you played the hand correctly is that there are many hands much worse than AK with which the SB would raise in this situation; there are only two to which you would be a significant underdog; and those that are a coin flip require him to make a difficult call. If you probability-weight these scenarios with some reasonable assumptions, I think you would be more than a 2-1 favorite at the moment you moved in.
I don't see how you can get away from BB/SB/Button confrontations with hands like AK and JJ unless you really have a read on your opponent, so you might as well have the advantage of being the aggressor.
Still, this approach seems to lack finesse, and it would be interesting to hear the reasoning of those who would use more subtlety.
Our hero, the big blind, moved all in. He was not real familiar with the SB having never played with him before but he appeared to be solid. The SB thought for about 30 seconds and called. The SB had pocket Jacks and he went on to win the pot.
I'm not sure what the correct play is. If you feel like you can get the SB off of his hand than moving in might be the correct play. I would just hate to play for 3 days straight and committ all of my chips where in all likelyhood it's a coin flip. Our hero was not desperate for chips so why gamble right now. Why not wait for a better opportunity to go all in.
Bruce
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I really don't know. The BB never saw him before.
Hi there, me again, just wanted to thank all that replied to my NL Hand post, and continuing on that, I was wondering what everybody thought about when, if ever, it is correct to fold what you are certain is the best hand. I made such a play in the hand below, and thought I was doing the right thing, but I'm not so sure anymore...any thoughts?
Rob S.
Yes and no. It depends upon what you mean by certain.
If you mean you're 60% certain that the other guy who just made an oversized all-in raise has AK, and that you're ahead preflop with your JJ, then yes, you should fold, if the other 40% of the time he has QQ or better.
If you mean that you're 95% certain he only has AK, and/or his all-in raise is only a pot-sized raise, then no, you shouldn't fold.
But, there are some rare circumstances, usually when you're on the money bubble, that you fold even though you know with near 100% certainty you have the best hand. BTW, I do not mean spots where you're in the lead but the other guy has more pot equity than you, like you have 1 pair and he has 15 outs for his straight flush draw. It is hard to come up with a hypothetical that doesn't sound unreasonable, but I can guarantee you that even some of these unreasonable ones do occur in the real world.
Here's a good example. I'm in a HE tourney years ago. At the start of the final table, one guy has like 85% of the chips, and he's raising every hand and betting it to the river. I'm one of the shortest stacks, but I have enough chips to pay the blinds 3 or 4 times. I was often folding hands that I knew with 80%+ certainty were better than his hands, because the other players were being stupid enough to play with this guy. And, not only play with him, but they were even reraising him with hands like KT, and then sticking to the river with the hand, only to lose all-in to his Q5 that made a pair of 5s. It was really pretty pathetic how they all kept crashing up against him like ships on the rocks of a cliff, and he continued staying lucky to beat them and knock them out. Normally, I would be inclined to take a risk against a chip leader when I know I have the best of it. But here, I was able to move up from 8th in chips to second place by just folding. Since it was a typical percentage payback tourney, my plays were right (especially since I never saw a true monster like AA or KK).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
about an hour from where I live the silver star casino holds a low buy in (10$) NL hold'em tournament every friday, rebuys are 20$ and there is an add on, but not for what I feel is a signifigant amount of chips, especially for the money (40$ for T2000). the blinds starting at 25-50 and doubeling every 20 min, which is not much when you only start with T500. the add on seems even worse to me, 2000 chips at blinds of 200-400, for such a high price compared to the buy in(four times). The main problem with this is so many people only know one bet to make, all in, and its usually before the flop. what this seems to mean to me is the tournament costs an additional 20 dollars to play for every hand you loose, as you cant bet enough to scare anybody off, without betting your stack, should I just screw down and play only AA and KK before the buy up when rebuys end. it seems everybody re buys as often as they are able to, so they look at me funny when I dont. It doesn't seem like a good deal at all to me. so should I play or is it too much of a longshot to be worth it. if I should play what adjustments should I make here? thanks for any advice in advance.
It's a very poorly designed event. The blinds are way too big in proportion to how many chips you get. Basically this tournamnent is a craps shoot unless your opponents are very weak. Play if you have nothing better to do or you are just dieing to play in a tournament, but don't look at it as a potentially profitable event.
Bruce
It helped a lot when I was first starting, as I would not play a live game untill I was comfortable in the cardroom setting. However youre right, the clear purpose of the event is to get people into the cardroom playing live, or the house games. Obvious to anybody who knows the casino industry at all, as the house takes no juice off the buy in.
It sounds like you're saying the following: buyin: $10 gets you T500 addon: $40 gets you T2000 rebuy: $20 gets you ?
This ? is important. If the rebuy only gets you T500, then you should never take a rebuy. If a rebuy gets you T1000, then each purchase of chips is proportional, and you should play as you wish, knowing that making or passing on rebuys/addons is EV neutral.
Yes, this is a crapshoot. However, even if the rebuy deal is bad and you never take one, you can probably still have some +EV here. I'm sure that most of your opponents are playing hands they shouldn't, and if you are going to be there anyway, you can buy in for your $10 and see if you can't pick up a good hand, and have it hold up, before the blinds take a lot of your stack. If nothing else, it's good practice for short-stack play in a more "skillful" tournament later.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have played in tournaments in Conneticut, nevada and California. My observation is that the California tournaments with the $500.00 and higher by ins are the toughest to beat. The California tournaments seem to have so many good players.
Is this correct? Any comments welcome.
oops yes the rebuy gets you T500
This past Friday I was fortunate enough to finish 2nd at the Biloxi Grand's Friday tournament. This makes two top-5's for me in 12 tries, with 2 other times making top-10's for basically my $75 back. Usually 55-80 players enter.
I find that if you play really disciplined, cut out the fancy moves, and just play basic poker, you can hang. Does this sound right?
Or is there a way to have even better results? Thanks for any and all info.
Mark
The key to tournament poker is to be aware of and take advantage of unique situations as they arise. You need to know who's blind you can steal, and who's you cannot. Who's playing too tight now, and who's given up mentally and will call. Unlike an ordinary ring game, the players will change their "mentality" much more often. Also, many of your opponents (and often you) will be short-stacked relative to the size of the bets/blinds/antes. You need to know how this short-stackedness will affect them, and how it should affect you. If you just stick to the generic advice in the poker books, you will be making many wrong calls and wrong folds, because you won't be taking into account how each opponent is playing. This is similar to high-limit poker, where you use the book strategy as a starting point, and modify things for each player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
how hot is Men "The Master' Nguyen NOW ??? HOT HOT HOT.
any one how know a better tournament player ??
Mensky was hotter'n cayenne pepper btwn '92 & '96. I think he's absolutely hilarious, as well. "Nice hand, Sir!"
He's one of the very best, but I'd put him with Miami John, and a couple others, just a tiny shade below the top three of TJ, Bonetti and Tony Ma.
And frankly, Ma hasn't been doing it as long as Bonetti, and Bonetti hasn't been doing it as long as TJ.
TJ's won at every form and style of poker tournament there is, consistently, for over 15 years. He's clearly the best overall tournament player of all time, although you have to wonder what Doyle Brunson's record would be if he played as many tourneys as TJ.
"... although you have to wonder what Doyle Brunson's record would be if he played as many tourneys as TJ."
And it would make sense to ask the same question about quite a number of primarily-live-game players. for example, in the last month or so, I've noticed that two players who I think are both VERY good (though it's based on very limited time playing with them, so I'm not certain) have placed first and third respectively in events in the two recent sizable tourneys in LA. I think if either played tourneys all the time, their names would be popping up quite often.
What separates Men from many of the other top tournament players is that he's not broke and stake dependent. Hmmm, maybe it's because he plays very well in live games also. Hmmmmm.......
You mean he plays very well at live Chinese poker and "dips his beak" in all the players he stakes? :)
Men couldn't beat a live game if his life depended on it.
I used to play a lot of live game stud against Men back in the late 80's. He kicked my butt. But then again, stud's not my main game and I was just getting started then.
What'd anybody else think of it? Notice that it's not stated whether it's LHE or NLHE, a live game or tourney play, that the questions are referring to.
BTW I think the photos of Anna are among the lousiest I've ever seen of her.
Ok T minus just over a week before I leave for vegas...assuming my flight isn't canceled....Thanks United.. But I want to play some cheaper buy-in tourneys to get some exp. I have never played a tourney, and will be there from Friday-Thursday. I will be all over, but I hear that the orleans/Stratosphere/Mirage offer lots of tourney action. What are good, and what are my buy ins?
Kevin
The Orleans has a noon and a 7pm tournament every day of the week. The buy-in's vary, but are usually $20 or $30 with rebuys for the first hour. On Sunday night it more expensive, $120 + $100. They have the schedule of games and cost posted when you first walk in the poker room.
The competition for the cheaper tournaments is a good lineup for a beginner.
I have not played at the Strat or Mirage.
JohnnyD
The strat tourneys are at 8:30pm usually have 35.00 buyin. Wed and Sun are no limit, and they also have no limit live games with 1, 2 dollar blinds.
As Johnny said, orleans are noon and 7pm each day. Luxor has 25.00 tournament, but rounds are 15mins.
Uhm... for more info I would go to www.pokerpages.com under tournaments. This seems to be pretty accurate.
The Stratosphere Tower poker room spreads 4 weekly tournaments. Tues is limit hold'em, wed is no limit hold'em sat is 7 card stud and sun is no limit hold'em. All the tournaments begin at 8:30 pm and have a $35 buy-in. The wed tournament has one optional $20 rebuy, the rest have no rebuys. All the tournaments have 30 min levels with a lot of play (each tournament at least one person complains they would like for them to be over quicker). On Sun and Wed we spread a live no limit HE with $1 and $2 blinds.
Randy Refeld Tower Poker room
Another good (i.e., weak) field at Foxwoods last night, made stronger by the addition of 2 guys from 2+2. theprince00, who introduced himself beforehand, but didn't stick around to chat later, and Wes, a lurker. 55 players, ~4800 prize pool. I finished 7th when I got caught stealing with A8s by JJ in the SB. Made quads twice to win big pots early.
How's this for misplaying a hand by a very tight player. This guy had QQ at one point when the blinds were 15,25, 2 limpers, and he makes it 350 to go, all fold, he shows his hand, and says he's glad there was no flop. Maybe, but why bet 350 to win 90? It's just not maximizing your EV on the hand. Anyway, he's now the SB 25, I'm the BB for 50, and there is a 5 ante. Middle position player is first one in for a raise to 100. Rest fold, SB just calls, I just call with 74o. Raiser has 460 left, SB has 800 left. Flop is 445 with 2 clubs. SB checks, I check, Raiser goes all-in, SB just calls. This guy is so tight, I'm afraid that he has 55 or has a 4 and a better kicker. Yet, I don't think he'd call the raise from the SB with A4, and no other hand with a 4 is even remotely possible. I decide not to raise, as he could then fold all pairs from TT to AA that he is most likely to have. Turn is a 4, giving me quads. He hesitates, and bets all-in, I call, of course, and bust them both. He then walks away whining about how could I play 74o? What do you think? Was it a bad play that got lucky, or a correct call under the circumstances.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You actually met three but didn't know it. I came in tenth in the tournament and was sitting right next to you. Would have introduced myself but figured you didn't want the distraction while we were playing.
I also saw you playing some live no limit last night. How was the competition? Any interesting hands to comment on? How did you do?
WHERE WERE THEY SPREADING NO LIMIT ACTION? AND WHAT WERE THE BLINDS?
The game was at Foxwoods, didn't start until 12:30AM. Blinds were 5,5 with $100 buyin. This game doesn't go often, and when it does it might be blinds of 5,5 or 5,10. Might be NL or PL. Might be anything from $100 to $500 buyin.
Last night we varied from 4 to 8 handed. Never was a great game. I pissed away about $250 to M on one hand. Other than that, nothing noteworthy for me.
Once we start the World Poker Finals, we'll hopefully have a NL or PL game going 24 hours a day. I'll be there at least 3-4 days a week to support it (between winning the tourney, that is).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
and maybe i can get there too and toss off some money. for nl i might show.
Ray,
I'm sure we'll get some PL or NL cash games during the WPF in November, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are no bigger than 5,10 blinds. However, there will be nightly super-satellites for the $5,000. NL HE tourney, so you could probably more than cover the costs of your trip just by playing in those (and the main event). There is also the regular 75-150 up to 300-600 cash game going. Lately this game has been half HE and half Stud 8 or better.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ummm, it was obviously a bad call that got lucky. What do you call it when a total pigeon (ie fish) calls your preflop bet with this hand when you have AA? Same thing, but now you are trying to pat yourself on the back for a 'good play'. Nonsense. You got lucky and that's all there is to it.
-SmoothB-
Of course I got lucky, but this is no-limit. I invested T50 into a pot with about T290 already in, and a chance to win about T1200 more. Total (albeit longshot) implied odds of 30:1. I'm not saying it's a great play, just a standard correct play. If they're going to give you a shot at their whole stack for a very small investment, you can take it as long as you aren't letting yourself get trapped.
BTW, if you consider this to be a terrible call under the circumstances, please let us know where approximately you'd draw the line for calling here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I wholeheartedly disagree with your 'logic' here. I'll explain why.
You are in a tournament. If you make the call everytime you are faced with a situation where the odds are 25:1 against you, but will pay off 30:1, you will bust out very very quickly. Now, if it were a cash game, and you had a very large bankroll that could handle missing a lot of these long shot, albeit profitable plays, then you have my blessing.
In a tournament, however, you can't reach into your wallet and buy more chips when you miss a longshot.
I am sure you are the kind of guy who stomps around when 'bad' players make these kinds of calls against your AA and crack them. You probably pay them off, and then complain and explain why their play was wrong. But now that YOU are the one who had their trash hand rescued by a miracle flop and turn, you want desperately to believe that it was a 'good play'.
It was NOT a good play. You got lucky. Stop patting yourself on the back.
-SmoothB-
If you never play this kind of hand and your opponents arent braindead expect to be pushed about by just about everybody.Greg won a big pot and confused his opponents all in one go.Not bad for fifty chips.
You must think I have no experience with no limit. I'm just chuckling while I read this. Anyway, I will be patient with you.
There are 1,000,001 ways to mix up your play and throw off your opponents without playing pure, unmitigated trash cards like 74 offsuit - for a RAISE no less. If you are in the habit of mixing hands like this into your play in tournaments you will bleed chips like a stuck pig and lose.
Unless you get really lucky like Greg did.
Let's look at the odds.
The odds of 2 cards of different rank flopping 2 pair are about 2%. Trips (IE 2 of on of your rank on the flop), about 1%. Full house, 0.1%.
Now, what kind of flop are you going to need to continue after the flop with this hand? 2 pair or better? Ok, this will happen about 3% of the time. Of course, many of the times you flop 2 pair you will be beaten anyway - usually it will be bottom 2, and there are lots of ways for AA to catch up.
I challenge you to do the following - deal out the same cards and replay the hand 100 times, but change the flop etc. Do you think this play will be profitable in the long run? If you argue that it is, you are a rank amateur and I am through wasting my time with you.
-SmoothB-
Youre right .Youre wasting your time with me and Im through wasting my time with you and mine is probably more valuable.
I have to side with SB on this one. I am not even sure what the argument is about. Are you trying to defend calling a raise with 74 offsuit in a tournament? I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
Theres raises and raises.This is no limit holdem isnt it?
SmoothB wrote:
"I challenge you to do the following - deal out the same cards and replay the hand 100 times, but change the flop etc. Do you think this play will be profitable in the long run? If you argue that it is, you are a rank amateur and I am through wasting my time with you. "
Does anyone else think that it's funny that this guy is calling Padraig Parkinson (3rd in the 1999 WSOP) a rank amateur? Call him a bad player (which, from what I can tell, he assuredly is not) call him lucky (I can't speak to that issue), but an amateur? Please.
And, by extension, Greg one also?
Just wondering. =).
Max
Just ask Vince, or anyone who plays with me regularly.
I do, however, tell bad beat stories to sympathetic friends. The focus of these stories is not how bad my opponent is, and how I would have won if only he had played it right. The focus is how bad my opponent is, and how much I hope he keeps it up so I can win my money back later.
BTW, if I let the BB see the flop for cheap with AA, I don't consider it a bad beat when he beats me after flopping 2-pair or better. Of course, if he only flops 1 pair and then catches AFTER all the money goes in, I do call that a bad beat. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, you didn't tell us how big your stack was in the 74o hand, but I'll assume you had enough to cover both players.
A raise to T100 of a T50 blind is laughable. These guys got what they deserve for playing so weakly. I agree that you can play any two cards here, though it is high variance which I tend to avoid in tournaments(perhaps too much?). A key which many people will miss is that you also have good chances of bluffing these guys regardless of what your hand is.
DeadBart wrote:
"A raise to T100 of a T50 blind is laughable. "
I don't think that's necessarily true.
This is something I've thought about quite a bit, and here are my conclusions:
-Raising a little (or, girly-man raise) induces exactly the hands you want to call you to call you.
-Any raise is enough to get most blinds out of a hand, and to make people who want to limp with "speculative hands" to think twice about it.
-Especially later in the tournament, little raises are often enough to take down the blinds without investing too much if you run into AA or KK. If people are used to you making little raises, it can be just as scary as a standard 3x the big blind raise.
I welcome you to come over the top of my 2x the big blind raise in a tournament because you think I'm playing "weakly" DeadBart. =).
Max
(Incidentally, I recently attended a talk that Chris Ferguson gave where he also advocated the use of "little raises", for whatever that's worth).
I feel that small raises can be a useful tool, but you shouldn't be shocked when you get sucked out on by a weak hand.
I played 74o. This hand is so weak, that even if a player or 3 just call, I know I have pretty much the worst possible hand preflop. I'm trying to get lucky postflop. If I flop a single pair, even top pair with a gutshot straight draw, I'm not losing much more, if any, on the hand. I'm only going to invest more money if I flop an open-ender or a made hand of 2-pair or better.
If I were the raiser, or in this case the SB caller with AA, I wouldn't be surprised when the play backfired. It's gonna backfire more often than making a full raise. The main benefit to a small raise is that if you're stealing, you lose less when someone resteals. And, if your success rate on steals is almost as high as a full raise, you'll come out well ahead by stealing with small raises.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Man, there's a lot of testosterone in the tournament forum :).
You're right Max, a raise to 2x the blind is not actually "laughable", but it is dangerous. The implied odds are quite good for just about any hand to call you from the blind. I'm not saying that small raises should never be made, but that they should often be called. This is especially true if the small raise figures to be a very good hand that cannot or will not be easily mucked. This way you get a big payoff if you win.
Blinds are 15/25. I have about T700 in late position. Three limpers to me. I have 55 and limp. The flop comes 985 with two clubs. It's checked around to me and I bet 50 and get two callers. One of them being the small blind. The turn is a club. The small blind bets out a hundred, it's folded around to me and I call. The small blind hasn't seemed to get out of line yet and has mostly shown down good hands. I put her on a straight or flush draw after the flop so I was pretty sure she had the flush or a straight. The river is an offsuit 6. She bet's out again a hundred. This puts me in a tough spot. I decided to lay it down. I figure that clubs or any seven have me beat.
Could I have played this hand differently to win it before the turn? Should I have tried to win it before the turn? Should I have called the river?
Thanks for any responses.
I'd push it in on the flop.
With this flop you need to make a bigger bet than 50. You need to make the people with a 6 or 7 or two clubs pay for the turn/river cards.
There is T100 in the pot pre-flop. I would bet T200 on the flop.
Ken
I don't like the T50 bet on the flop. Assuming the SB also called all the limpers, there is T150 in the pot, and they've all checked to you. You have T675 in your stack. I'd bet the pot, T150. While you won't necessarily get a flush draw to fold, you should get anyone with a gutshot straight draw to fold. If you had bet more, and the SB still called, and still came out betting the turn, then you would be somewhat sure that you were behind, and could fold or call as the pot odds indicated. The problem with the T50 bet is that you're giving the caller 4:1 now, plus over 12:1 more if they hit their gutshot and get paid off by you. I might call with some gutshot draws here myself.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
final table local thirty five dollar holdem tourney i'm under the gun and fold my trash guy next to me raises 2000. sb raises all in 2600. bb raises all in for 6500. guy one calls has about 1000 left. guy one shows KK. sb shows AA. bb shows suited AK.flop comes 888,turn7 river the other 8. bb brings down hefty pot and goes on to win 1st place. we all got arise out of the hand.............. bye
Um, why didn't the sb get half the pot?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
looks like he was all in for a small part of it.
Final table of a weekly tourney, we play PL HE.
All players play very tight and passive, only the player to my right seems to be a little more aggressive. He raises my BB bing in the SB and the first one in 3 times in a row.
I didn´t get any good cards but still managed to be in good chip position because of stealing 1 or 2 blinds every round with garbage. Just had to pick the right spots (and be lucky not to play against a big pair :-))
Total chipcount: ~960k
We are down to 5 players, I´m in the big blind with T250k. Blinds are 5k and 10k. Everybody folds to the player to my right, he raises pot (T30k) the 4th time in a row. I look down to see black 44. Now I wouldn´t even consider to call with this hand under normal circumstances, but I put the other player on a steal. I thought about coming over the top or just calling and see what the flop would bring. Since I haven´t played this player very often in tourneys (he´s a real maniac in ring games) I wasn´t sure whether he would lay a medium pair or something like AT down in this situation. I decided to smooth call. The flop comes AQJ, all spades. To my surprise he checked. Now I put him on something like Ax without a spade or a small/medium pair , a made flush or absolutely nothing. I bet half the pot (T45k) and he shows me a pair of 9s in his hand (no spade). I was surprised he really had a hand and he told me that in this stage of a tourney he doesn´t want to drop out with a garbage-bluff, so he really always had a hand when he raised me. I wasn´t sure, whether he told the truth, but somehow i believed him. I knew him from cashgames and thought that he couldn´t be very smart and tricky. He seems to be rarely on final tables, so he really wanted to move up.
Several hands later we were heads up. He had a small chiplead over me (I: ~460k, he: ~500k). Blinds were 15k and 30k. First hand I had the small bind with 96o in the SB and folded. Although I was pretty sure the other player would lay down ~90% of his hands when being raised, I decided that I won´t raise with the first hand, thus giving him more respect for my future raises.
I managed to raise from the SB the next 8 or 9 hands, and he folded every time. On the other side he didn´t raise 3 or 4 times, so I had a cip lead (725k:225k). (We didn´t see any flop)
In the small blind I raised again with J6h to 120k (blinds were already 20k/40k). He thought a little and moved in for his last 225k. After thinking for a long time I decided to call hoping to have live cards. He showed me KTh and I rivered a six to win.
After this hand I was critizised from several people to call with this garbage. I´m still not sure whether the decision was correct, but in this spot I thought that it was worth to take the chance. There were 345k in the pot, and I had to call only for 105k. And if I loose I still have a small chip lead.
On the other side I was pretty comfortable that I would win the tourney when I reached the final table. And I gave me a 75% chance of winning being heads up with this player. So maybe it was a reason too for calling, that I felt it was my day and I was unbeatable this day (which isn´t a reason for calling I like very much).
Was this call correct?
Any comments appreciated
M.A.
MA,
Interesting post. Hand 1) I would rather have a specific reason for calling than call because I'm not sure where I'm at. I think a re-raise is better than a call almost irrespective of your cards if you think someone is on a steal. In this case I probably prefer to fold and wait for a better spot. QJ for example is a better hand to play than 44 against a potential steal raiser. Given that you called, you did the right thing to bet after he checked. Heads-up, when you have a pair, remember that your opponent will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. A flop like AQJ suited can scare your opponent just as much as you. Given that he was the raiser he should have bet the flop and would have won, right ?
Hand 2) The call is marginal in normal circumstances. What would swing me towards a fold, though, is the fact that you are beating him up so easily heads-up. Why put your chips in as an underdog when you can use them to win pots uncontested as easily as you have been doing ? Let him have this one and keep up the stealing.
All comments welcome.
Andy.
I have played in tournaments in CA., NV., and CT. The toughest players seem to be in California. Any comments on my observation would be appreciated.
I have played in both daily and major tourneys in all 3 markets. California is the toughest fields, then Nevada, then Connecticut (which is way back in 3rd of these 3). My experience in Cal. is almost entirely SoCal, and for Nevada, entirely in Vegas. I have no tourney experience in AC, the Midwest, Arizona, or the South. Or anywhere else that I failed to mention.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think that there are many tournaments in Nevada outside of Vegas worrth metioning, except when they have big tournament evetents in Reno (the Reno Hilton has taken the Carnivale dates and is putting on a big tournament in the beginnging of 2001 this year--should be interesting).
I would say that the tournament fields in Northern California are a bit softer than Socal, although that's mostly because there aren't as many "big" tournaments in Northern California.
I have never played in the NorthEast, so I can't really speak to that.
Max
The following hand knocked me out of a PL holdem tourney the other night - any comments gratefully received !
We are down to 3 players, with the prize money being: 1st 1100, 2nd 780, 3rd 460. There are 330 000 in chips in play, of which I have 48 000 - the rest are roughly evenly distributed between the other two. There are two blinds of 6 000 each. The player to my left is hyperaggressive; the other is playing much like I am - stealing roughly 1/3 - 1/4 pots preflop.
I get A10 on the button, and decide that if I flat call, the guy on my left with raise with anything. That's exactly what happens,and I go all, and he calls my baby reraise with 83o. Needless to say, he catches and I miss.
My question is this: should I just have raised straight away, and been content to take the blinds ? Given that he had a random hand, I'm unlikely to be a big favourite, but it did seem like a good opportunity to double up. I didn't particularly feel that I had any good reads on either player, otherwise I might have been content to win the blinds, and find another spot.....
Cheers,
Paul Miller
Sounds like you read this guy okay.Is this one of those tournaments where the button is a blind?
These games used to have the button posting the first blind, and the player to his left making the second. That's now been changed to having the two players left of the button post. The old system used to have some interesting consequences, which made loose play on the button even more attractive....
Cheers,
Paul
How aggressive are these guys playing each other when you're out? What are the chances that they will go to war with each other, and let you slide into 2nd place money?
AT is a good favorite over a random hand, slightly better than 3:2. But, if you raise the max preflop and win it all of the time, you win 12K. If you get all-in like this against a hand where you're 3:2, your EV is only 20% of 48K, or slightly less than 10K. Thus, a sure steal is higher EV than getting it all in against a random hand.
So, I would steal, as this is quite possibly the higher EV play, and it is very much the safer play as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the response Greg - you've confirmed what I thought about it afterwards.
My feeling was that these two were more intent on knocking me out, so the chances of sliding into second didn't seem good.
My guess at the EV for trapping was definitely too high, so taking the blinds uncontested seems obviously better. It also occured to me that I might have made a 'tournement' error - in other words, even if trapping was +EV, maybe I'd be better off raising, given that we were down to the last three. Is there a tourney situation in which you'd give up some EV to minimise your chances of getting knocked out ?
Cheers,
Paul
Definitely! It happens all the time when you're in or near the money.
When I'm being more specific, I refere to both chip EV and money EV. Chip EV is your expectation in terms of chip count, while money EV is your expectation in terms of the prize money you'll receive for finishing in various spots. Clearly, monetary EV is the only one that matters (well, at least to me, chip EV matters if winning is more important to you than the money).
Here's a good example. Imagine the situation in your tourney, only you're one of the 2 chip leaders. The short stack folds on the button, and the small blind raises all-in (OK, imagine it's NL rather than PL, and that the blinds are very small compared to the total chip count also). In doing so, he accidentally flashes his AK. You have TT, and are a slight favorite. If you call, you will have +chip EV. However, you will also have -money EV. Let's say the chips counts go 45:45:10. If you fold, you'll have 45% of the chips, and your chances of finishing 1:2:3 are about 45:50:5. If you call, you will win, let's say, 52% of the time, and have a finish order of 90:10:0 when you do so. If you lose, you will get 3rd place money.
Let's say prizes are 4:2:1. If you fold you get (.45x4) + (.5x2) + (.05x1) = 2.85
If you call and win, you get (.9x4) + (.1x2) = 3.8 If you call and lose, you get 1. (.52x3.8) + (.48x1) = 2.46
So, even though you have a slight edge in chip EV, you lose in terms of monetary EV by calling with the underpair.
It's pretty hard to figure out exactly where to (re)draw the lines when calculating your money EV in making a decision, but it will help you become a better player if you get good at estimating it in the heat of battle.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Paul, if it's any consolation this was going to occur sooner or later. I know your opponent well and his game (for want of a better way of describing it) is based entirely on aggression and the "any two cards can win". It is, believe it or not, entirely possible that he would have called if you had raised. You set as favourable terms as you could for the confrontation and were unlucky.
There were 5 tables in tonight's tournament and he departed when there was still 4 tables having rebought 12 times.
I think you made a mistake you should eigther fold or bet the pot - AT is not a trapping hand and you want to blow the random hands out of there.
Of course it this is the UK - the hyper aggressive player would probably call with anything - as long as he had one more chip than you :-)
Hi, I am in the Sacramento area for another week and I am wondering if anyone knows of any tournaments? I have looked on pokerpages.com & cardplayer.com and none are specifically listed for Sacramento but there may be one within 20 or 30 minutes.
Thanks for any info, Ken
Down below you will find a thread where fossilman asks whether is was a 'good play' to call in the BB with 74 offsuit after a very tight player in the SB called the raise.
He asked if he made a good play or if he made a bad play and just got lucky. After voicing my opinion that he made a bad play and got lucky, he got pretty upset and tried (in vain, I think) even harder to defend it.
I would like to poll the other readers, including some of the experts out there like Badger et. alia. and ask them what they think of this brilliant play. Below you will find the relevant part of that posting in fossilman's own words.
'How's this for misplaying a hand by a very tight player. This guy had QQ at one point when the blinds were 15,25, 2 limpers, and he makes it 350 to go, all fold, he shows his hand, and says he's glad there was no flop. Maybe, but why bet 350 to win 90? It's just not maximizing your EV on the hand. Anyway, he's now the SB 25, I'm the BB for 50, and there is a 5 ante. Middle position player is first one in for a raise to 100. Rest fold, SB just calls, I just call with 74o. Raiser has 460 left, SB has 800 left. Flop is 445 with 2 clubs. SB checks, I check, Raiser goes all-in, SB just calls. This guy is so tight, I'm afraid that he has 55 or has a 4 and a better kicker. Yet, I don't think he'd call the raise from the SB with A4, and no other hand with a 4 is even remotely possible. I decide not to raise, as he could then fold all pairs from TT to AA that he is most likely to have. Turn is a 4, giving me quads. He hesitates, and bets all-in, I call, of course, and bust them both. He then walks away whining about how could I play 74o? What do you think? Was it a bad play that got lucky, or a correct call under the circumstances. '
-SmoothB-
Here is a tournament hand for your consideration.
Playing in middle rounds of a limit tournament that I later went on to win 2nd in. In the cutoff seat with KJ of spades. Folded to me, I raise, all fold to the BB who makes it 3 bets. I call.
Flop comes T 6 2 rainbow. Checked to me, I bet, he calls.
Turn comes J of a 4th suit. He checks, I bet, he raises, I call. Now I think he might have aces and might have been slowplaying.
River is another jack. He bets, I raise, he calls and shows KK.
The only way I could have won this hand is to catch 2 running jacks, and that is exactly what happened. The odds were 3/47 on the turn and 2/46 on the river but I made them both. Isn't this a brilliant play? Did I play it like a pro or just get lucky?
-SmoothB-
If you cant tell the difference youre in trouble
c'mon baby, hard 8, baby, hard 8
I believe he played the hand better than you. He had you exactly where he wanted you. You just got lucky on the river
JohnnyD
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Bruce
Of course it wasn't a good play.
-SmoothB-
I would say that your opponent played the hand poorly. Your call on the turn of his raise is debateable, and his bet on the river was a mistake. Then, to exaserbate his mistake, he paid you off!
By the way, when you're considering implied odds of Greg's 74o, don't forget to count the straights. Oh, and how do you like playing 74o against a hand like . . . KsJs getting ~6:1?
this is a tournament and people tent to play tighter in them - If I know I am in a 2 or 3 handed pot I will sometimes play some small cards knowing In an against big pairs or big aces. If I hit the plop I know I have these guy(s) trapped. It is a good play with the right chip count and position.
You need to get lucky but when you do you will bust out who ever is in the hand with you.
It can be considered a high level play and not for the beginning player.
If you're trying to imply that the two hands illustrate the same point then you're missing it entirely. As I read Greg's post, he called for 50 because he was getting 6-1 from the pot, the betting could not be re-opened, it was No-Limit and he and his opponents had plenty of chips in front of them. If he misses the flop, and I expect a "miss" includes those times where he flops one pair and nothing else, then he is not going to put any more money in. That's the key.
Andy.
Cant say -- depends on fossilman's chip position. With say 1800 or 2000 in front of him its a good play. With 1K its probably marginal. With 500 its terrible. He could have been crippled agains a better kicker (until the fourth one hit of course). Given the correct chip position the flop and the turn play are OK.
I would think that the most likely hand the SB had was 45 suited - though he too could be playing the implied odds with an odd 4.
I think the SB played badly. If he had As or Ks or maybe Qs he should come over the top preflop. And should muck either on the turn or perhaps the flop. The smooth call on the flop should have him very very worried.
we already know what I think on this topic. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Looks like youre well ahead without voting.Theres obviously lots of rank amateurs out there!!
I think myself as a somewhat proficient player. I beat the play $$ games easily on several different sites. I watch the real money games and laugh at some of the plays people make. The games dont look that tough. I plan on playing for real money soon. does anyone have any advice on playing with a short bankroll like $100 or 200. For example, should i play only group 1 hands? Any advice would be much appreciated.
Play your regular game, you will do just fine!!
Best of it !!
MJ
Couple of things - watching a few hands from the side lines is NOTHING like playing for real money and scared money can't win - so if it is your last 100-200 you better just take your girl friend out on a nice date cuz you'll get scalped if that is your last dollar.
I have played with is guy Mike an he can play.....
I didn't suggest he couldn't play well I just said if he is playing with his last dollar he is at a disadvantage and scared money rarely wins.
First off, this is the wrong forum, but we forgive you.
Secondly, beating the play money games online is not hard. I told a friend that I was winning online, and he got all excited and started playing online for play money despite having never played poker before in his life (and no he didn't read any of my books either). He very quickly won four times his "bankroll".
Sorry to say, but given the nature of your question, i.e., should I only play group 1 hands, you're not ready to play for real money and beat the game.
You should try to learn how to beat something tougher than the typical free money games at yahoo or wherever you're playing. IRC poker isn't too unrealistic, if you can beat the 20-40 game there you have a chance in the 3-6 games for real money. I forget the website for downloading Greg's Poker Client (the preferred interface for playing IRC poker). Maybe someone will read my post and supply it for you. Another game that's tougher than most free money games is Wilson's Turbo Texas Holdem. I would buy that, and if you can beat some of it's tougher lineups than you again have a legitimate shot at the 3-6 game.
But, if you're asking if you should fold all but group 1 hands, you need to learn more. There are very few games where you can play that tight and still win. And, there are no games where this is the optimal strategy.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
OK, down to 16 players...but realistically, only the top three gets any kind of real money. I get A6s on the button and have enough for 3 big bets (T1600, total tournament money is T60,000, average player should have about T3750).
UTG raises, one guy calls. UTG is an unknown player to me...but the fact is that he's not a high limit (20/40 or higher) ring game player, and so, I must assume he can't be a great player, maybe a good one, but not a great one.
The question is : given the amount of money I have, should I be calling? (I would not in a ring game, unless UTG was a maniac).
It's a clear fold. You are comitting almost all of your chips when you are a big dog. Raising with A6 on the button without anyone else is fine but calling a raise esp. with one caller is a bad play.
Bruce
Look on RGP maybe about a month ago where Badger gives a great answer to a somewhat analagous situation.
Bruce
Your asumption that a higher limit player is probably good or great just because he is a higher limit player is really bogus. Not a good way to classify good players - ALL limits have their magoos and maniacs.
You have the button meaning you have 5 or 6 hands before you have to post a blind - question is do you want to go down with A6 or wait for a better hand. I don't like the raise and smooth call in front of me and I don't know the blinds action yet - if the blinds are not raising a lot I might pay 1/3 of my stack to see what might be an interesting flop.
Rounder wrote : "Your asumption that a higher limit player is probably good or great just because he is a higher limit player is really bogus. Not a good way to classify good players - ALL limits have their magoos and maniacs. "
My assumption was not what you think. My assumption is that if he played higher limits, then I would have known him...and if I had known him, I would have known exactly how he played, because I know exactly how all the higher limit players play in my club. That's just a fact. Since he doesn't play there, it means he can't be a great player....he might be a good one, but there's no way he's a great player...because great players will step up to at least 20/40...that's what poker is about. So if he was a typical high limit player, I am not saying he would have been good/great, I'm just saying I would have been able to peg him right off the bat.
It's not even conceivable this guy was a phenomenal player who just happens to play outside of your club and decided to stop by this time?
It would be as likely as for Doyle Brunson to sit in on the 30/60 Hold'em game at the Bellagio..possible? yes...but very improbable. There were 3 open seats in the 20/40 game when the tourney started, and the tourney was only a $50 buyin.
I don't even know why you'd want to debate that. I know with 99% certainty he was not a great player, and I'd be willing to bet that I'm right. But possibly, he is a good player....If he is a good player, it wouldn't really distinguish the way he would play the hand much differently (or at all) from a great player in this particular instance.
The more I think about it, the more I think this thread has become totally moot.
You're already up against an early position player and a limper. Forget about the suitness of the hand, because it's shorthanded and usually a pair wins. If you pair your ace, that's good, but if you pair your six, you will probably be beat against two players. The flush is a long shot. Fold.
At this point, since you're short stacked. I wouldn't want to play a hand until I can get the chance to be the first one in. When I come in I'd raise. Hand values are not as important as in a regular ring game. If you get the opportunity to be the first in, come in with a raise. You may just win the blinds, or play heads up. At least heads up you will get approximately a 50% chance to win.
Pairing your Ace could be fatal rather than good against a UTG raiser. This hand belongs straight in the muck.
Andy.
I'll kind of agree with you, but quite often the UTG RAISER has a pair. Since, you have an ace, you still have a chance, but not very good.
My local casino has $50 buy-in tourneys (nolimit and limit) that start with 20/40 blinds, and increases 50% every 15 minutes. All tourneys start with T1000 - and get around 50 players.
I have never done well in tourneys, (but have done very well in ring limit games). I figured these tourneys may be worthwhile cause it would give me a bit of tourney experience, but the only problem is that the short rounds makes me worry that it is just a big gamble...and would not result in any insight.
15 min rounds hurt the better players as it forces them to make plays they normally wouldn't cuz the blinds are eating your stack at a fast rate - doubling blinds just exaserbate (sp) the problem.
It does give you tourney experience but you have to modify your ring play for tournaments.
Doc,
The shorter rounds will reduce the skill level. But, how skilled are your opponents? If you feel that your skill level is better, you still will have an edge. What's more important than card values is determining your opponents weaknesses and adjusting to it. You only have to play a notch better than them to win.
Thanks, I understand that skill level is clearly still important, but I also understand that it becomes less important, cause there are fewer hands. So, my question is that if the rounds are only 15 minutes, how much does that sway the luck/skill balance towards luck? Obviously, if the rounds were 1 hand per round, it would be hugely swayed towards luck...and almost little skill.
You just answered your own question-because of the escelating blinds you have to play in a manner you might not prefer as you are forced to play situations you might normally avoid.
I live in the So. Cal. area and have been playing sporadically (3-6 Omaha 8, 2-4 and 3-6 HE) for the last couple of years. I'd like to try my luck at playing in a few low-limit tournaments and had a few basic questions:
1) Which of the weekly So. Cal. tornaments, if any, would be best suited for a tourney beginner?
2) If a tourney has a $15+$15+$5 buy-in/re-buy/entry fee, could it possibly cost more than $35 to play in that tournament? I realize that this is probably a lame question, but I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something.
3) Is there anything I should know that, as a beginner, I don't know enough to ask about?
4) Will anyone get upset if I constantly quote Teddy KGB at the table ("Dat Ace kood not heff helped you...")?
Thanks in advance for your help.
RD
Look in Card Player or Poker Digest at their tournament schedule.
Bruce
Hi!
I'm back to the message board after a vacation.
I played in the Foxwoods NL tourney last week and met our friend Greg "Fossilman" there. Sorry if I could not stick around Greg, I'd played all afternoon in a 4-8 game and I was due in Boston that night. I hope to talk to you at the World Poker Finals. I'll be there for the last weekend to watch the big event.
This was my first tourney ever. I play weekly in a single table home game tourney but first one with a larger field.
I was eliminated around the 25th place. I played pretty well under the circonstances. I learned a lot. This may sound stupid but I had good cards but too early. I won 3 hands early two with KK and AA. I feel that if you get these hands when the players have 200 in chips instead of 1000, you've been unfortunate.
I was seated at a crazy table, most players rebuying 6-7 times. I doubled up for the 3 first rounds then no more good cards.
I have a couple questions.
First of all, How much of your stack are you willing to gamble when you call a raise? With what kind of hands you say? marginal ones... Ok I limped in with Q T of hearts in middle position. 2 players had limped before me. Then a player raised it so I would have to call with a third of my stack. All folded to me. Call or Fold??? (I folded. Multiway I would have called.)
How much slowplay do you make when you have a premium early in the tourney? Say you have pocket aces... Flop comes T 5 3 two suited. Do you want to win it now? or trap a player on the turn. What if you had A-T or QQ instead of the aces? (I'm thinking that if I have A-T I definitely want to win it know as a J, Q, K falling on the board can beat me )
Now I realize that it depends... what opponents etc..
I'd just want your general comments on each situation.
Thanks...
theprince00
It's too hard to generalize on some of these thoughts. There are so many "it depends" to each answer that it becomes a entire book to put it out correctly.
One question is easy. You asked "How much of your stack are you willing to gamble when you call a raise?" My answer to this question will also be a partial answer to your other questions.
I will gamble anytime I feel I'm getting the best of it. Until you get very late in the tourney, getting the best of it tourney-wise is the same as it would be in a cash game. That is, if you will end up risking T1000 to win T1075 (it will be you, one opponent, and the blinds, who have or will likely fold), then you do it if you think you're a slight to big favorite. If you have to put up 1/3 of your money preflop, you do it if you have +EV given what you have, what he probably has, how likely he is to pay you off when you catch up (or were always ahead), and how likely you are to pay him off when he is ahead or catches. None of these questions are really tangible, and require some good judgment on your part.
It is very rare that I would call for 1/3 of my stack preflop with QTs, however.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ok
I have about T550 left. Full table around 25 players left. I'm one of the shortest stacks at this table.
Blinds are 50-100 with 20$ ante. They are doubling in 6 minutes.
I'm in late position all folded to me. I have pocket 8s.
I raise 200 to try to steal. All fold to the SB who raises enough to put me all-in.
Now he could try to bluff me here... He could have a smaller pair or AK-AQ etc or a higher pair.
I called and he showed me QQ. I was out...
Good call here???
Would you have raised all-in? He surely would have called but would that have been a better play?
Thanks in advance...
theprince00
Yes. Go all-in first. As a general rule, if A "real" raise puts in 1/2 your stack, you are pot-committed anyway.
It wouldn't have changed anything here, but the BB is likely to call with anything and call you down if he hits any piece of the flop. He may fold something like Q9o or T9s for the extra 250. That would be good for you.
.
Given those blinds and your stack size, you're not likely to play a hand without someone placing you all-in, so why not do it yourself and put the decision on them.
JohnnyD
When you are playing NL:
What hands do you think have enough implied odds to call the BB ?? How far do you go ?? (facing no raises)
theprince00
The answer to this question depends completely upon the size of the blinds relative to the size of the stacks, as well as your opponents.
If you can outplay your opponents readily, and the stacks are much, much bigger than the blinds, you can play anything preflop. I mean, this includes 74o (really). ;-)
If your opponents are tough to outplay postflop, you need to stick to good cards, no matter how big the stacks are. Similarly, if the blinds are very big compared to the stacks, you again need to stick to good cards. If you're not sure, stick to good cards.
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, by how far do you go. Do you mean, how far down the table of hands, or how far into the hand (i.e., flop, turn, river).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi Greg...
Yes I meant how far in the table of hands...
But what you stated helped a lot...
Thanks...
theprince00
I have a hard time believing what I've read below about defending fossilman's call of a preflop raise with 74 offsuit. It has been asserted that this is a good hand to play because you can trap your opponent if you get a flop to your liking. On the contrary, I think this is the kind of hand that is far more likely to trap you.
It has been said that it is worthwhile to play this hand because the implied odds are so great. This seems to be true at first glance to the novice. But closer inspection reveals that this is a fallacy.
74 offsuit will win about 24.5 percent of the time against any 2 RANDOM hands when played out to the river. For some people with no savvy, they might look at this number and think that it is worth it to be a few percent underdog b4 the flop, but that it is made up for by the implied odds. I will now explain why this is not so.
First let us examine what you need to flop in order to continue. Your best hope is to flop 653 rainbow. This will happen much less than 1 percent of the time.
In fact all (both) of the straights that you can flop combined will be somewhere around 0.5 percent of the time. When this happens you will still lose a small percentage of the time - obviously if the flop comes all one suit you may not want to continue, and you will occasionally lose to runner runner flush when someone has the A K or Q of that suit. (In the case of someone having a big pocket pair with 2 suited cards on the flop).
There are other ways you can lose even with your miracle flop. Someone else may flop a set and fill up. Boom. You're busted.
The fact is, with this miracle flop you very well might not get much action anyway. Any intelligent player will throw those aces away if they get any resistance from you on the flop. Or even if you just call. (I hope that we are talking about games where the skill level is fairly high, not ones where you can do OK just by playing barely less pathetically than the competition. If you are only talking about those kinds of games, you should say so in your posting so that those among us who are serious can pass over it.)
OK, now on to other scenarios.
Flopping quads is going to happen extremely infrequently, but it does happen. This is also the rational behind really bad players playing any 2 cards - but we smart players know better and save our money.
How about a full house? This will happen 0.1 percent of the time. But even then you are vulnerable. Someone with an overpair might hit their set. Not terribly likely, but it most certainly can happen and all of us has seen it happen more than a few times.
What about flopping trips? Now you can really be in trouble. This will happen more often than either the straight or full house - a whopping 1 % of the time. But what if the flop comes A77, K77, Q77, J77, etc? Will you call an all in bet with your 74 offsuit, when that all in bet came from a preflop raiser? Now you really have to think - was it worth it for me to play that 74 offsuit and risk getting busted?
Let's move on to the worst flop you can imagine where you would want to continue - 2 pair. This will happen about 2 % of the time. However, when you do flop 2 pair, it will almost always be BOTTOM 2 pair. And if it isn't bottom 2 pair, the board will be so coordinated that YOU might get trapped by someone with a flopped straight. Everyone reading this forum should be aware of how flimsy bottom 2 pair are in no limit holdem. What happens if the flop comes A 7 4, K 7 4, Q 7 4, etc. Can you call an all in bet?
Not only that, but even if you have the best hand on the flop, there are far too many ways that AA etc can catch up.
Let's recap. Even though some beginners might note that 74 offsuit wins 24.5 percent of the time against 2 RANDOM hands, and therefore incorrectly conclude that is is only a few percent underdog preflop, you will only flop a hand that you can continue with about 3.5 percent of the time. You have a 30:1 shot that you will get a flop to your liking, although you may well lose a significant percentage of the time even when you do hit your miracle flop. Even if you know for a fact that your opponents will both push all in or call all in bets, and pay you off at better than 30 to 1 when you do hit, it is NOT WORTH IT. You are in a tournament and there is not an infinite supply of chips to make these long shots profitable in the long run. I will also add that if your opponents are so bad that you can RELY on them paying you off with large bets, or by calling large bets, when the flop hits you that tiny fraction of the time, you are playing in very easy games and your postings might well be more appropriate for the beginner's questions forum.
One last thought before I conclude - what 2 cards would you NOT call a bet with out of the small blind???
-SmoothB-
This play is not for every one. You have to know when to try it and against who.
Your chip count needs to be right and you have to be able to get away from it if you don't hit it hard.
Frankley I wouldn't play these rags except under ideal conditions.
The odds of beating two random hands has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is right to call here. Really nothing.
The odds that you flop a hand almost sure to be in the lead do matter. That is, 2 pair or better. This will happen enough that against a predictable opponent who pays off too much (whether because they pay off too much in general OR just have a hand they won't fold) you can call for a small portion of your stack (say 5-10% I would say, but I'm no expert, and neiter are you).
I thought that, by the way I wrote my posting, it was obvious that the % chance that 74 offsuit will win against 2 random hands is completely irrelevant. So we completely agree on this point. Maybe a reexamination of my original posting will make this more clear.
The whole point of my posting was to point out that you will only continue that 3.5 % of the time that you flop 2 pair or better. Do you really think that it is worth putting in 5-10% of your stack for this opportunity? That is just pure crazy.
Let me ask again - what 2 cards WOULDN'T you play here?? Since the possibility of making a straight only accounts for 0.5% from that 3.5%, ANY 2 cards give you almost the same options! So 72 offsuit is only slightly less likely to make a hand that you can 'bust' someone on, according to your logic. Are you going to shove in 5-10% of your stack preflop on that? What 2 cards WON'T you call a raise with? Will you just call everything preflop, hoping to flop 2 pair or better, and then cut it lose when you don't flop anything? This is just stupid, plain and simple.
I remember one time I was chip leader at the final table of a tournament. I was in the BB with JT offsuit and there was a raise to 3X the size of the BB from mid position. This guy is a maniac in cash games and was raising on marginal hands. The thing is, I KNEW that he would shove all in NO MATTER what the flop was if I checked to him, so I smooth called.
The flop came down JT5 rainbow. I flopped top 2. I checked, he shoved all in. Right then the alarm bells went off - I knew that he had an overpair, probably kings. He is afraid of kings and won't put a lot of money in with them so that he can cut them loose if an ace flops.
Anyway, I gladly called. A second 5 hit on the river to counterfeit my 2 pair and I nearly went bust. Sure enough, he had kings. I slowly crawled back and managed to win second place. But I had a huge chip lead at that point and probably would have cruised to an easy victory if I hadn't played that hand. If I had won the hand I would have had 3/4 of the chips on the table.
Again, second pair is vulnerable and this accounts for 2% from that 3.5%. Plus you will only have bottom 2 pair. So that leaves 1.5% of the time that you can be reasonably sure that you will win the hand.
You really want to put in 5-10% of your stack with those kind of odds?
I'm playing in the WSOP next year and I desperately hope that I have you and others like you at my table. At least for the first day. I don't imagine you'll be around for the second.
-SmoothB-
Let me get this straight. You were convinced preflop that he would push all-in on the flop if you checked to him, regardless of the flop. So you get a favorable flop, you check, he pushes all-in, and now you can suddenly narrow his hand down to an overpair, probably kings? How have you gained any information from his actions on the flop, other than the obvious that you can rule out any possible hands that contain one of the flop cards? Is there some special tell that he has when he pushes in with kings vs. pushing in with some other hand?
Yes he has a tell. I knew that I could tell from the way he pushed his chips in whether he had a big hand. If he pushed his chips in a certain way I was prepared to call his bet with just a pair of jacks.
In this case I could tell that he thought his hand was really big - in this case an overpair. I got a little nervous calling an all in bet with TOP two pair. The chances that an overpair will catch up to 2 pair are nearly 2:1 against. 5 outs on the turn and 8 on the river. Sure you are the favorite, but you don't have a lock by any means.
-SmoothB-
I agree with your point, but for those who haven't done this before, don't forget to NOT spend too much money on a hand for this purpose. Early in the tourney, when the blinds are still very small, is the best time. It also helps if you (and they) are regulars. Then this information can work over many tournaments.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would like someone who's opinion really matters to say something about this. I am tired of reading postings about this from all of these rank amateurs who seem to want to do nothing more than play devil's advocate and defend this stupid, stupid play.
I do not profess to be a professional tournament player either, but I have won several small tournaments and sattelites and will play in the WSOP for the first time next year.
I think I have given enough compelling reasons, using probability and logic, why this play makes no sense. I would love to hear someone try to defend it using the same principles.
-SmoothB-
Youve given several compelling reasons as to why you the wsop will be better value than ever.
As a rank amateur I can't wait to get back to the WSOP best value in the world.
It sounds too good to pass up this year. I think I've got a chance.
The concept is simple - you are trying to trap someone with a hand no one can put you on.
Like I said - it is a play only the top players will attempt.
You don't try this with KT or JTs - it is an off the wall play and if you don't understand it sorry.
A rank amateur. :-)
At the Orleans NLHE tournament $100 buy in 1 rebuy for $100.
I am in Mid position with AA - I make a small raise 3xbb with a One ung limper a very good NAME player (not a rank amateur) Flop comes A45 - he checks I make a 3xbb bet he pushes all in I push my chips in on my set of AA.
This guy shows 23o. GO figure.
SmoothB,
Here's a short somewhat simple answer. Before, you play a trash hand, like 7-4, 8-5, 6-4, etc. You will have to have a good read on your opponent. If you can put a tight player on a big pair or ace-king. You will have a chance to break him. These hands are played all the time. The reason why is the IMPLIED ODDS! Let's say I call a standard size raise in no-limit. The guy that raises is very tight. Now, we are heads up. I've got 6-4 (suited or unsuited who cares, its heads up, if you get a suited flop it is hard to get paid off anyway). The flop comes down A-6-4 (It's 20 to 1 to make two pair). With that flop his most likely hand is AK. Do the math for combinations and you will figure it out.
The play only is worthwhile if both players have a LOT of chips left (let's say this raise was made in the first round of the WSOP main event, where I've paid T50 more with a shot at winning a guy's stack of T9900), or if you can significantly outplay your opponents.
If I was in against guys like Padraig, I wouldn't have made the call. He will likely read me too well, or cause me to misread him.
I was playing against a very tight player who called from the SB. I can put him on a pretty tight range of hands here, and I know that he will not call after the flop if he doesn't have top pair or better, unless he has a good draw and the bet to him is small. The raiser is a beginning player who isn't too terrible, but he's just starting, he has to stop and think through plays that aren't obvious, and he's readable. Given this scenario, there are lots of ways for me to win without flopping 2 pair or better, and these ways are not necessarily that risky.
For example, if the flop had come something like 458, I would have bottom pair and a gutshot straight draw. The SB with AA would have made a big bet, almost guaranteed. He would know that his AA is probably ahead, and that it is much more likely that one of us has a gutshot draw rather than a made straight, so he would bet enough to force out the draw. If the SB had held AK, he would have checked, as he doesn't bluff with overcards (hell, if he were the button and we checked to him he wouldn't bluff here). If he checks, I check. If the raiser makes a bet, I'll know with pretty much certainty if he has something or not. If he has the overpair, it will be pretty obvious, and I can safely fold. If he has AK or the like, I might fold by mistake, unless I'm quite sure. And, I might be quite sure, as he would likely have a bit of a pause before betting. In fact, I can be pretty sure that he did have AK here, based upon his delay (as if he was gathering his courage) before betting, and his reaction after we called.
In any event, if you're not in a position to outplay the opposition (pretend Muhammed Ali is saying this part) postflop, then these calls are not marginally profitable, but are clearly unprofitable. And this tourney is full of lots of amateurs who don't play well, so maybe SmoothB should ignore my posts related to the Foxwoods Tuesday night NL HE tourney.
I would love to play in more big money NL HE tourneys, but this is the one that's available in CT. At least in a couple of months we'll have 3 weeks of big events with the World Poker Finals. Then, if I win one of those, maybe SmoothB will consider my opinion a REAL one. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with greg except that I think the better the opposition the more you should play a few hands like this.The implied odds go way past this pot.The next time a load of crap flops your no longer seen as a guy who cant have any of this.Different ballgame now.Easy concept to understand if one isnt under the illusion that this game is all about maths.
Wouldn't you also want a reasonable chance of picking up the pot without flopping anything before making this play?:
If you know your opponent only plays big cards and will fold AK or AQ to a bet if he misses the flop, then you can bet if it's checked to you on any flop without an A,K, or Q. This will happen a lot and should really help the EV.
Re flops like A74: They seem to require both a good read on your opponent and a certain fatalism. You want someone who will get all-in with either AA or AK on this flop, then you just figure AK is almost three times more likely than AA and hope for the best. If you don't feel really strongly that your opponent will put a lot of chips in with a big overpair or top pair/top kicker, then playing 74 probably isn't a good idea.
I have played in three tourney (as I am new to the game) and seem to do well in them by playing tight-aggressive (more so than ring games). My question is given the limited time tournement chips available how do i differ my play? Keep in mind the tourney is limit HE with unlimited rebuys in the first half. I have seen people play extreemely loose in the first half in hopes of obtaining a large bankroll for the second half. This type of play doesn't make sense to me even though it seems that in Sylvester Suzuki's book on tournaments he suggests this type of play.
Any suggestions or comments? THANX
It depends on the make-up of the table. In many of our small local tournaments, there are lots of passive players. I will play loose agressive with this lineup and be prepared to rebuy, if necessary. If you play too tight, you won't have enough chips to make a good run after the rebuy period.
JohnnyD
One other thing, I usually don't respond to posts with "do do" in the title :)
JohnnyD
Their loose play is not very wrong when they have a small stack. This is simply because the antes/blinds are relatively high compared to stack size in the early stages of a small buy-in tournament.
A lot of "maniacs" make the mistake of continuing to play loose when they have amassed some chips and the antes are still small, but as I say, until that happens, the smaller your stack, the looser you should play (but always aggressive).
I believe that in several tournament situations, a "maniac" is playing more correctly than a "tight" player who does not understand tournament subtleties. I may post more on this soon.
Andy.
Ok, well I really appreciate all of the personal attacks that have resulted from this thread. That's pretty classy. I asserted my opinion on the matter, and I used numbers and facts to back my opinion up. So now when I ask you to challenge my assertions, the best you can possibly do is to say 'It's an expert play thing - you wouldn't understand?' In the very worst cases, you actually took it upon yourselves to insult me. Ok, that's fine. But if we really want to learn something from this, let's have a free exchange of ideas.
Someone PLEASE take a moment and simply answer the following questions:
1)How much of your stack are you willing to put in against an early position preflop raiser with 74 offsuit? 5%? 10%? Other?
2) What hands will you NOT put in this much of your stack with? Will you keep 74 offsuit but throw away 72 offsuit? What about 92 offsuit?
If you are willing to call with 74 offsuit when you are totally out of position, will you call a raise with it on the button too? What is the cutoff? IE what seats will you or will you not call with this hand? (Although it seems logical that if you would call with it in the SB you would be THRILLED to call with it on the button.
3) Are you willing to put in your whole stack if you flop bottom 2 pair? Will you fold to a big bet if you flop bottom 2 pair?
4) Aren't you worried about your positon here? What will you do in the following situations?
a) You flop bottom 2 with a flop of Q 7 4 and the preflop raiser pushes all in after you make a sizable bet at the pot.
b) You flop bottom 2 with a flop of K 7 4 and check trying to go for a checkraise. It get's checked behind you. Now a jack falls. What do you do? Do you make a bet at the pot or check and fold? Or call a bet?
I am really interested in your answer to this question because it will tell me everything I need to know about your skill level. Ok, let me ask another question.
c) What do you do if you have this same situation but your opponent is ME?
The fact is, against good players I am not thrilled about playing ANY hand out of position. As for a weak one like 74 offsuit, sheesh.
Ok, I am open to suggestion here. I'd like someone to give some solid answers to these questions and give me some concrete info to go on.
-SmoothB-
It sounds like you want a "text book" answer that can be backed up with math. But that's not the way no-limit poker is played.
I play some pretty unconventional hands (just ask Fossleman about my T3o in the TOC). But I play them based on the situation. Who's in, who's out....my position....my and their table image at the time....my and their stack size....etc, etc, etc.
It's going to vary from hand to hand and table to table and limit to limit. It's just a feel for the game. Nobody is going to correctly answer your questions and have that answer apply to every situation.
You're looking for something that does not exist.
JohnnyD
I'm not looking for a textbook answer. If there is a logical answer for doing a certain thing then SOMEONE should be able to explain those reasons.
From the responses I was getting, people made it seem like only a stupid person couldn't understand the logic behind calling a raise with 74 offsuit out of position. Therefore they felt no need to explain why. Oh, sure, they claim that you do it so that you can bust a big stack. But I want to know the answers to my questions. How far are you willing to go? What WON'T you call with? What will you do on the flop?
Look, if you think I am so stupid, back your answer up with SOMETHING. Don't just say 'Run along and play foolish newbie.'
If someone says I believe in X and here are my reasons, and you reply with 'You are stupid for believing X to be true, but I can't explain why', then tell me - who is the chump?
Either give me some answers, admit that you're wrong, or don't say anything.
-SmoothB-
-SmoothB-
First of all, the only reason you were on the butt-end of any "personal" attacks is because you had the arrogance to refer to guys like Padraig and Greg Raymer as rank amateurs. They have forgotten more about poker than you will probably ever know. On to your questions.
"1)How much of your stack are you willing to put in against an early position preflop raiser with 74 offsuit? 5%? 10%? Other?"
In a ring game, certainly no more than 5%. In a tournament, somewhat less. It depends on the structure of the blinds and the texture of the field. But I would be less inclined to play the hand. The key is that there is at least one "target" stack the same size as mine that will pay me off, and I can read well. In Gregs example, this was the initial raiser.
"2) What hands will you NOT put in this much of your stack with? Will you keep 74 offsuit but throw away 72 offsuit? What about 92 offsuit?"
I will not play small 3 gappers. I would also not play high 2 gappers, as these hands are likely to trp yourself. I would rather have 74o than J8o.
"If you are willing to call with 74 offsuit when you are totally out of position, will you call a raise with it on the button too? What is the cutoff? IE what seats will you or will you not call with this hand? (Although it seems logical that if you would call with it in the SB you would be THRILLED to call with it on the button."
This exposes your inexperience in big bet poker. It is NOT absolute position such as button, UTG, middle, etc. that is important. It is your position RELATIVE to the raiser, or the guy likely to be first on the flop. If there is a UTG raiser and a bunch of callers, I would much rather play a speculative hand from the BB than from the button. Using the 74o example, think about the action on a 356 flop if the UTG raiser has AA and the button has pocket Tens. The BB is the ideal bushwacking position and the button is the one likely to get bushwacked between the raiser and the trapper.
3) Are you willing to put in your whole stack if you flop bottom 2 pair? Will you fold to a big bet if you flop bottom 2 pair?
This is situation and player dependant. It depends on the action on the flop. It falls into the "expert" category that you derided. But I agree with your fundamental point that bottom two pair can be a trap hand when you are out of position.
"4) Aren't you worried about your positon here? What will you do in the following situations?
a) You flop bottom 2 with a flop of Q 7 4 and the preflop raiser pushes all in after you make a sizable bet at the pot."
If he is an ABC player, and everone else folds. I like my hand here. He is more much more likely to have KK or AA than QQ, 77, or 44. And most ABC players would slowplay a set with more players to act. You would have to play poker. Again, I use my position here relative to the raiser to gain information and build a pot.
"b) You flop bottom 2 with a flop of K 7 4 and check trying to go for a checkraise. It get's checked behind you. Now a jack falls. What do you do? Do you make a bet at the pot or check and fold? Or call a bet?"
It depends. Probably wouldn't have gone for the check raise with bottom two in the first place. THe Jack doesn't really scare me, as JJ or KJ probaly would have bet the flop.
"I am really interested in your answer to this question because it will tell me everything I need to know about your skill level. Ok, let me ask another question.
c) What do you do if you have this same situation but your opponent is ME?
The fact is, against good players I am not thrilled about playing ANY hand out of position. As for a weak one like 74 offsuit, sheesh."
YOU are the kind of guy I would like to play this hand against because you seem to have poker myopia- thinking that everybody else thinks and plays like you. Let me ask you. If your are the UTG raiser with pocket Aces, and I check-raise you for all of YOUR chips on that flop, what do YOU do? If you say you would always fold, you better stick to limit poker.
Hope that is helpful.
Thank you very much for the only intelligent response I've seen in response to this thread.
If anyone thinks that I will never try to play trap hands that no one can put me on, they are sorely mistaken! But I think you and I agree that 74 offsuit is far too weak to play period.
If you want to play a good trap hand, then you might as well make it a good one. Instead of 74 offsuit, where you only have a 3.5 % chance of getting a flop you can continue with (and most of these options are bottom 2 pair - very very weak) why not just wait for suited connectors or just play all pocket pairs? If you have even a pair of deuces you have a MUCH better chance - about 8.5 to 1 - of getting a big flop, and one where your hand will hold up. With suited connectors, you have 2 times the chance of flopping a str8, and then the added 1% chance of flopping a flush. This boosts you from 3.5 % to 5%. Big difference.
As for wanting to play this hand against me, you can be sure that you don't. When you hit your 2 pair with a flop of 874 what are you going to do on the turn when I smooth call your bet? I've got 65 suited and I'm there to shove my str8 or set up you a$$.
As for the question about the pocket aces, I am not ONLY going to raise with AA. I routinely raise with anything from small pairs to suited connectors. But you can be sure that I will NEVER raise, or call a raise with trash hands like 74 offsuit.
Anyway, when you try to move me off of a pot with a flop of 743 by betting all of your chips, you better be really REALLY nervous if I call you.
Anyway, thanks again for the intelligent response. I hope to see others like it.
-SmoothB-
No problem.
I agree, I would prefer to play 65s or pocket 3s than 74o as a trapping hand. The problem is, you need to get the stars to line up.
If you limp/call with 33 or 65s then you may have to fold a big button raise. And constantly "speculating" like this without ever having the opportunity to see a flop will be hazardous to your stack. You already pointed that out.
Another trap opportunity is if an early raiser bets and it is folded to you. Do you call on the button with your suited connectors or small pairs? Two problems:
1. If the blinds call, you will have poor position as you are between the raiser and the rest of the field.
2. If the blinds don't call, you are playing heads-up. You have position, but now are less likely to make money since there is less preflop action and no other players than the initial better.
Greg's SITUATION was ideal. He was in the big blind, so he knew that he was going to take off a flop for only 50 extra in chips since he was last action. He had a couple of potential victims since the SB cold called. He had a good read on the types of hands his opponents would play. He had good position relative to the raiser. He had a good stack and good enemy stack to shoot for.
Any two (almost) will do.
Far better implied odds here than limping with suited connectors and hoping you don't get blown off the hand without seeing the flop. Especially in a tournament where there are few opportunities for multiway action and you can't replenish your stack.
Ok, why are you so obsessed with this thread?
And re personal attacks, I clearly remember you saying something along the lines of:
"I hope that you guys that think this was a good play are in the WSOP next year, I'm sure you'll bust the first day" or something to that effect.
People in glass houses....
Max
Im interested in this thread because I'm right, I know I'm right, and everyone else knows I'm right but they still insist on playing devil's advocate. I am just kind of amused by the whole thing and I'm interested in seeing how far people will go with the whole matter.
Ok, I know that people are being a little defensive because they know I've got em trapped in this whole mess. So they want to lash out at me. In a way that's my fault because I did take a kind of arrogant tone about the matter. But I AM right, and you are only compounding your own humiliation if you continue to defend this ludicrous play.
There are a lot of inexperienced players who read these postings and it is criminal to defend such stupidity on a forum that might influence their play. Unless that is precisely what you want to do - make them play worse so that you have a better chance at winning tourneys.
-SmoothB-
I believe that what was said is that inexperienced players should not try hands like these.
And as far as being right....you're thinking like a LIMIT player. I believe this thread was about NO LIMIT.
JohnnyD
Will somebody please wake me when this is over.
SmoothB wrote: > Im interested in this thread because I'm right FALSE.
> I know I'm right TRUE.
> and everyone else knows I'm right but they still > insist on playing devil's advocate. FALSE.
> I am just kind of amused by the whole thing and I'm > interested in seeing how far people will go with the > whole matter. I'll admit it, I've gone too far. I should have started ignoring you a couple of posts ago.
> [it's] my fault because I did take a kind of > arrogant tone about the matter. But I AM right Arrogant may not be strong enough.
> you are only compounding your own humiliation > if you continue to defend this ludicrous play. Someone's being humiliated, we just have a different opinion on this as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
SB, while I agree that it is appropriate to play trap hands even when you KNOW your opponent has aces, I do not believe that 74 offsuit is the kind of hand I have in mind for this purpose.
I have participated in the WSOP 4 times and made the top 30 twice. I don't consider myslef to be a world champion by any means. But I can say that, while you will on occasion see these kinds of plays in the EARLIER rounds of a tournament, I believe this is largely done for image. Furthermore, you don't see these kinds of plays being made in the later rounds of the big tournaments, either because these players feel that they have accomplished their image building plans, or they have been eliminated from the tournament already (perhaps because they try these maneuvers too often.)
I will say that when tournaments get short handed, people will raise with hands like this on the button to steal the blinds, then occasionally end up getting called and winning a big pot when they flop exactly right. But I can assure you that these players have no intention of seeing the flop after this raise and win purely by accident. CALLING a RAISE with a hand like this is unthinkable. I can't see what it can possibly accomplish.
As for myself, in the same situation, I will call a small raise in the blinds with most pairs, suited connectors, and occasionally a few more hands. Against some very weak raisers, I will often call with nearly anything if I think i can get them to lay the hand down. I will not, however, call with a hand that I think has no chance of winning - and this includes hands like 74 offsuit.
Even headsup, where you must call with some marginal hands to avoid being run over, I would never call with a hand as poor as 74 offsuit.
In short, it is very important to play a good mix of hands in no limit. And it is important to defend your blinds quite often when they are being mercilessly attacked. But not with trash hands like 74 offsuit. This is pushing things too far.
As for your questions:
1) I would not risk any of my stack with this hand.
2) Like I said before, it will depend on the raiser. Concerning a modest raise from early position with no fear of someone coming over the top, I will play nearly any pair, usually any suited connectors 56 and larger, and maybe a select few other hands.
There is a unique brand of player who will raise with big pocket pairs and refuse to lay them down heads up. I will often play any ace against these players if I can read them for kings or queens or the like. If an ace flops I have their stack. The thing is there are not many players that are this bad and make it far into tournaments. But I can use this to build up my stack pretty early on.
I would only play a hand like this on or near the button, and I would NEVER EVER call a raise with it - if I play it I will raise the pot myself to attack the blinds. If I'm reraised a significant amount I'll throw it away. I'll usually only do this if the blinds seem like they are folding a bit more than they ought to.
4) Since I won't be playing this hand much, I am not that worried about what to do when 2 pair flops. In these circumstances I will try to get a read - if someone flops something as powerful as top set they will often play it slowly on the flop. It depends on the situation but if I am this far in, and I flop 2 pair, I am not going to be thrilled about it.
As far as what I would do if I were playing against you in this situation, I get the feeling that you are implying that if you check down the flop after me, you've got me beat. Some of the time this will be true. But I have a feeling that if you flop top set and check it through on the flop you will be telegraphing it so loud and clear that I'll cut that 2 pair loose on the turn.
Anyway, this is a good posting and I think it is the kind of matters we should go into more in depth with on this forum. However, you might find that people are a bit more receptive to your ideas if you take a less insulting tone. But no offense, I like your posting.
Pikachu
It's fairly early in the tournament and I have about T325. There's a raise from middle position to 60, then there's three callers to me. I have KK.
What's my best play here?
Results later
Go all-in!
The pot is already close to the size of your entire stack. If they all fold, that's no disaster, as you still almost double up. If one of them calls, you win T265 more, but winning less than that with no risk of going broke is just fine.
You've got to make a raise here, or it will be more difficult to play your hand correctly postflop, as with this many opponents, it becomes more likely that someone will flop a set or 2 pair on you. Any reasonable raise, given the circumstances, will take most of your stack, so you should just put it all in there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg thinks pushing all in is totally clear cut. I totally disagree.
Against 4 other callers your KK will lose over half the time against RANDOM HANDS. You aren't against random hands. You can be sure that one of them is ace face. That's 3 outs against you. I would bet that at least 2 of the others are wired pairs. I'd say the chances are good that one is aces. Even if they are lower pocket pairs, there's 4 outs against you. 7 outs with 5 cards to come - the chances that one of these cards WON'T hit are about 45%. So there is a 55% chance that one of them will hit and you lose. Now, that's just for 3 of your opponents. The other one could have some middle suited connectors - or Greg's favorite hand, 74 offsuit - so take a little away from your chances there.
As it turns out, your odds were much lower because AA was out there.
This is by no means a clear cut all in move. You take a big chance if you do. You will more than likely go bust, but if you do win, you will have a much bigger stack. It all depends on your strategy.
Personally, I know that I can outplay the field - I don't need good cards to win. Over time, I will build up my stack and do well. So I would very possibly throw this hand away, or just call the 60 and fold if I don't flop a set. Hard to say. But I would not automatically shove in my stack. This is by no means a no brainer.
This is a crap shoot. If you came to this tourney to win because you are good, throw it away. There will be other opportunities.
Now, I want to make it clear - if this scenario came up when we were getting close to the final table, I would NOT HESITATE to throw this hand in the muck. At least a couple of people are going bust with this hand and are going to slingshot me into the money. Why risk blowing it on this hand?
I would push it all in if I were short stacked however.
Greg, you have a lot of leaks in your game. This is becoming more and more apparent.
The thing is, I know some really REALLY bad players who have won small time tourneys before, so I'm not surprised you have. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. That doesn't mean that you're good.
-SmoothB-
What about the fact that one or more of the three limpers would fold to my all in bet. This was why I pushed all in. Shouldn't that be taken into account?
SmoothB. Reread your post and you will realize how stupid it sounds.
1. You don't raise with KK because you MIGHT get called in 4 spots, and win "only" 45% of the time. When you are almost a 2x money favorite, you gotta take it in a tournament, or you will be blinded away. I don't know how YOU "outplay" your opponents other than getting the money in in such situations. Maybe you are so all powerful that your opponents always fold when you bet or call when they are drawing dead, but the fields I (and Greg) play against aren't that bad.
2. If you regularly commit 20% of your stack, and then fold UNLESS YOU FLOP A SET, even if you have an overpair, then please, please, please play in my game. Weak-tight. Bad poker.
I have played against Greg. He is NOT a really bad player. Far from it.
YOU, on the other hand: 1) Don't play good hands because you might get outflopped; 2) Don't play bad hands; 3) Fold KK to a single raise, just because you are close to the money; 4) Still manage to outplay the field, without needing good cards.
Please share your secrets of success with the rest of us mortals, who normally have to bet, call, raise, and sometimes even show down the best hand to win.
Did I say that I won't play good or bad cards? You must be joking. I'll gladly play KK, QQ, AA, whatever. And I'll play 74 offsuit. It is all a matter of where and when.
I will raise very tight blinds with almost anything. I can remember very clearly raising them with 72 offsuit before. I'm sure I've done it with almost everything, in both no limit AND limit. If the blinds are too tight I will always make money with this play.
I WILL NOT CALL A RAISE with a hand like this. It amazes me how some players who profess to be good STILL do not understand the difference in requirements for MAKING a raise and CALLING a raise.
Ok, on to KK. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I never said that I will NEVER play KK against 4 opponents. I just said that it isn't a no brainer!!! It is NOT a no brainer.
I know a couple of players who will literally NEVER raise with less than KK. So I would most certainly muck my KK against them, even heads up!
Also, if I am very close to being in the money, I am not going to risk getting busted when my chances of winning are less than 50%. No way.
Now, if I have a huge chip lead and I'm against 4 short stacks, you can bet your butt I'll shove it in with KK. Because here, I'll either win and bust 4 people, or I'll lose a small part of my stack, and the winner won't be much bigger than he would have been if I hadn't played the hand.
My point was that it isn't a no brainer. It ISN'T a no brainer. Haven't you ever heard of big time tourney winners mucking KK face up preflop in tourneys? Are you better than they are?
Sometimes it is profitable to muck AA in no limit tourneys! I'll leave this little exercize to the reader. I'm sure this one will be a 'no brainer' for all of you professionals.
-SmoothB-
"Ok, on to KK. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I never said that I will NEVER play KK against 4 opponents. I just said that it isn't a no brainer!!! It is NOT a no brainer."
I did read it carefully. Give the information provided in the original post, it IS a no brainer. In this case. First raise was to 60, which means the blinds are probably 10-20. Our hero has 325 in his stack. Nothing about the raiser's excessive tightness, being close to the money, or other tolls under the bridge. This was the situation described.
I don't appreciate you attributing concepts or comments to me that I didn't make in order bolster your point and attempt to make me look bad. Continue this intellectual dishonesty and you will soon be talking to yourself here. Maybe that's your plan.
You do understand that the reason for moving all-in is that you have a great chance of doubling up without risking a flop, don't you?
What a dip! Just to make it clear, when you see me not respond to SmoothB in the future, it is NOT because I agree with him. It is because I don't want to waste my time.
SmoothB wrote: > Against 4 other callers your KK will lose over half > the time against RANDOM HANDS. You aren't > against random hands. Yes, and this latter fact might actually be to your benefit. If you pick out 4 random hands, most of the deck will hit at least one of them. But, with 4 hands that were chosen to be played under these circumstances, you might be lucky and be against 2, 3, or even 4 aces with various kickers. That is, your odds of winning might even go up. Not that this is anywhere near my point in this post, but I'm hitting your statements one at a time. Whether your odds would go up, down, or remain relatively constant would depend upon the range of hands that each of these players would play under the circumstances. I don't know what it would really do, but you are not necessarily worse off than you would be if all 4 were random.
> You can be sure that one of them is ace face. That's > 3 outs against you. I would bet that at least 2 of > the others are wired pairs. So, you'd rather let all of them draw against you at once? If you raise all-in, what are the chances that they ALL call you? If not, there's 60 in dead money for each fold. And, if the do all call, while it's true you'll win less often, the extra chips you win will compensate for that.
> I'd say the chances are good that one is aces. How can you say that? Only because you read Mike's later post. There has been a single raise and some callers. Yes, of course, the raiser might have AA, but there are VERY few players who are more likely than not to have AA here. And, the callers, unless they have a weird habit to their play, almost certainly do NOT have AA.
> So there is a 55% chance that one of them will hit > and you lose. Gee, you win 45% of the time, and get 4:1 plus the blinds on your bet? What a terrible play that must be. Better to just call with 20% of your chips, and fold the 88% of the time you don't flop a set. Wait, better make that 90%, because if you flop a set and an A is also on the flop, you'll have to fold then also (since we seem to know someone has AA).
> This is by no means a clear cut all in move. You take > a big chance if you do. You will more than likely go > bust, but if you do win, you will have a much bigger > stack. It all depends on your strategy. You take a bigger chance if you play a hand like KK passively in these spots. A much bigger chance, that you'll get blinded out, or go broke to the small pocket pair who would've folded preflop if you had raised all-in.
> Personally, I know that I can outplay the field - I > don't need good cards to win. I doubt it.
> So I would very possibly > throw this hand away, or just call the 60 and fold if > I don't flop a set. Hard to say. But I would not > automatically shove in my stack. This is by no means > a no brainer. While it's true that almost no play is a complete no-brainer, this one is almost as close as they come. To even suggest just calling for 20% of your chips here and folding if you don't flop a set shows a serious flaw in your thinking. Buy a lesson from Sklansky, and I'm sure he'll tell you that just calling here is a terrible choice, maybe worse than folding.
> This is a crap shoot. If you came to this tourney to > win because you are good, throw it away. There > will be other opportunities. Yes, throw away KK preflop in a spot where there is no significant evidence that anyone has AA.
> Now, I want to make it clear - if this scenario came > up when we were getting close to the final table, I > would NOT HESITATE to throw this hand in the muck. So what? Mike made it clear that it's early in the tournament in his original post. What you should do when near the money has nothing to do with what you should do now.
> Greg, you have a lot of leaks in your game. This is > becoming more and more apparent. Again, we disagree about whose leaks are becoming more apparent. Based upon our posts, let's ask Ray Zee who he would rather back in the next major tournament.
> The thing is, I know some really REALLY bad players > who have won small time tourneys before, so > I'm not surprised you have. Even a blind squirrel > finds a nut sometimes. That doesn't mean that you're > good. I know some bad players who have won major tourneys. I'm not surprised at anything in poker. I am surprised that you have grabbed this issue so tightly. As another post in this thread suggests, you would think that you have a personal vendetta against me that is outside the scope of anything on 2+2. Maybe you do. I do not know your real name, nor anything about you beyond your posts. So, who are you? And, if you have won major tourneys, please review the first sentence in this paragraph.
As to whether I'm good or not, I'm quite pleased with my record in tourneys and live games. I'm pretty sure that most of the readers of these threads know who the blind squirrel really is.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
On further reflection I can say that, indeed, it would be wrong to put in 20% of my stack with KK and then fold if I don't flop a set. I wouldn't do that.
I also wouldn't put in 10% of my stack with 74 offsuit under the circumstances you posed.
In certain points in a tourney, I would not risk going bust for a <50% chance of winning. At other points I would. It depends. I've pushed all in with K6 offsuit. I've folded with TT. I've pushed all in with TT. It depends. These situations are not no brainers. That's my point. In the situation described in the original posting, I probably would not call.
Everything in tourneys is situation dependent. We all know that. You can't say that it is ALWAYS a no brainer to push all in with KK, and *I* can't say it's ALWAYS a no brainer not to call a raise with 74 offsuit. OK? Can we meet somewhere in the middle here?
I stick to my opinion that in the situations posed for both of these hands that it is correct to fold both. I have backed my statements up with analysis and I've given alternative scenarios where I WOULD call or reraise.
Nuff said. No hard feelings. Truce?
-SmoothB-
I have no problem with debating these issues, whether I think the answer is close or not. The only thing that ever bothered me were your unneeded disparaging comments that had nothing to do with the issue.
For example, if you want to hear from guys like Ray Zee, David, Mason, etc., because you think their opinion might determine which of us is more likely to be correct, that's fine. But to say things like let's hear from someone who's not a rank amateur, turns it into a name-calling contest. I've written posts where I disagreed with someone, and decided to call in the higher authorities. Yet, I believe I've done it with tact, such as "Let's try to get an opinion from someone with more experience than us, like Ray Zee." No disparagement there, unless the other guy thinks that he's better than Ray. And, even if he did, I phrased it in a way that indicated he and I were both lesser authorities than Ray, not just him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No brainer. Move all-in.
If this is one of those AA v. KK bad beats, it is just one of those things that happens every 3 months or so if you play ALOT of no limit tournaments.
When stacks are short relative to the first raise, it's kind of hard not to get broke of you have KK and someone else has AA.
It's much different if the blinds are small, and te action is raise, call, call, reraise, rereraise all-in. Then you have some real thinking to do if you have the Cowboys.
nt
This is not a bad beat story although I did lose the hand. I was just wondering if I did the right thing. With that many callers I wasn't sure if I should wait to see what the flop brought or not.
It turns out it was one of the craziest hands I've seen. The first guy checks the flop of 10 9 7 with two clubs. The second guy goes all in for T35, the third guy goes all in for about 200 or 300 more and the forth guy calls. THe board pairs on the end and the first guy wins with 10's full. The other hands were 68 suited and AA. It turns out I was a huge underdog to the Aces anyways.
I can't express how badly I feel that the guy with the Aces played this hand. If he goes all in before the flop he might get it heads up with myself and win the pot.
Thanks for the reassurances. I was fairly certain I did the right thing, but needed some validation as I'm new to no limit.
I have read Mason's Gambling Theory and Other Topics and he states that rebuying when busted is a good idea and rebuying when ahead is a bad idea.
However, if there is an add-on where you receive more chips for the same cost of the initial entry ie buy in for 75 and get 100 and then add-on for 75 and get 150 or 200, when does it become profitable to add on ? It seems like it's a function of the chip size vs the cost since in the extreme cases of $1 buying you 1million chips or $1 mil buying you 1 chip it is obvious what the answer is, but at what point does it go from un-profitable to profitable?
Thanks.
If the addon chips are cheaper than the buyin chips, then it is ALWAYS correct to addon. No matter how big your stack is.
At the time you addon (at least in any tourney I've ever played), you are still quite far from the money. As such, chips have the same value (within 1% or less) in a big stack as a short stack. So, if the chips you buy cost you $1 each, and they're worth $1.05 each (because buyin chips cost more), then addon no matter what.
This addon, when you have a very large stack, will frequently have no impact on your finish position. However, it will occasionally allow you to make the money, move up within the money, or even win, when you wouldn't have if you hadn't added-on. Thus, this type of play adds only slightly to your profit, but adds a lot to your volatility. That, IMO, is the only valid reason to avoid making this addon.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
While Mason's work is theoretically correct, my "back of the envelope" calculations suggest that a "busted" rebuy is worth of the order of 1-2% more than the money you are paying for it in a typical non-progressive rebuy tournament, so considerations of bankroll and the line-up of your table may be more important.
I think in your case with the extra chips the re-buys are clearly theoretically profitable.
Andy.
Assuming the structure of add-on for more cheaper than the buy in, at what point is it most advantageous to add-on?
Assuming the structure of add-on for more cheaper than the buy in, at what point is it most advantageous to add-on?
Thankx for the help
Typically, an add-on is only allowed to take place at one specific point in time. Most often, this occurs at the end of the rebuy period. If your casino allows the addon to occur at any time during the rebuy period, then it depends upon you and your strategy.
If you wish to have enough chips to win more when you catch a big hand, then you should take it as early as possible. If you want to be able to take the addon and stay alive after going broke once, wait until you go broke, or until it's your last chance to addon.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Another good Tuesday evening at Foxwoods. We had 50 players, a prize pool of about $4500. That's 50 buyins and about 160 rebuys/addons. Pretty typical.
I was saved from an early elimination (about 30 players) by Boston player Sudsie. A weak player in early position limped for T100, I went all-in for T425 in the cut-off seat, button called, Sudsie called from the SB, and the BB and limper folded. T1475 in the main pot, no side pot. Flop is 236 with 2 spades. Sudsie has a lot of chips, as does the button. Sudsie bets out T800, and after a lot of hemming and hawing about an all-in player, the button folds. Turn and river are no help to me, and I tell Sudsie I have nothing, showing AQ. He says that's good, he had a flush draw. Button complains that he folded AK. Lucky for me.
I get ahead of the pace for a while, then make the final table with a slightly below average stack of about T3200 (about T42,000 in play among 9 players). I float along, then hit a roller-coaster period.
Here's a hand that SmoothB will love. We're 5-handed, and the first 2 players fold to me on the button. I make a full pot-sized raise. The BB is known to me, and is very tight. The SB is unknown, but she has also been playing very tight the entire final table. The SB calls all-in, BB folds. I congratulate her on making a good call, as I was stealing. Board is 77K-A-5. She has AK, I have 75 (sooted!). Sorry, nice lady.
Eventually, I win, the crowd cheers, I start a chant about playing 7high hands like the nuts, the crowd cheers louder. The astral projection of Vince enters the room, we all bow reverently, and he blesses me. I guess I'll play again next Tuesday.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I love it when guys save my pot for me by semibluffing out a better hand when I am all-in. Peter Vilandos actually did this for me in the $500 MLH event at the Taj last year. He got a guy to fold JT or something to a ragged ten-high flop, which I took down with pocket fives. The guy couldn't beleive he didn't have at least AT.
I love to steal against tight small stacks with 75s and the like. Even when they DO call you, you are not usually that far behind since their most likely hand with which to call is Ace-face. This type rarely makes the call with middle pairs.
If we took away all the sevens in the deck Greg...
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????? :-)
Congrats...
theprince00
(BTW I won my home tourney last night, yoouhhhoo, played a 4-2 suited to flop trip 2s and bust 2 opponents, just have to pick your spots...)
Yes, you did get lucky again. At least you realize it.
I have no problem with your RAISE with 75 suited. That's perfectly fine! Especially against 2 people who are too tight in the blinds. CALLING a raise from early position with this is plain stupid.
Notice that not a single person who defends you was able to answer a single one of the questions I posed in the thread below. Two people who DISAGREE with you, however, were able to do so. Why do you think that is?
Here's why. There are a lot of people with huge holes in their game who think that they are really great who make these kinds of plays. They could do better if they fixed the holes in their game, but since they do OK in general, they think that all of their plays are sound. They aren't. So, again, if any of you savants out there would care to take the time to answer my questions, by all means go right ahead. I am dying for you to prove me wrong.
-SmoothB-
SmoothB, alright already, you're a good player (God knows you've told us so countless times). Can you get off of this trip? Can you see that not everyone's game is not based on the same set of strengths? In a NL game especially, where psychology is at a premium, aren't some players able to make certain plays profitably more often than other players? I'm not questioning your math or your content. I actually do respect your opinions on the board, as it seems you usually have insightful ideas. However, this current badgering (no pun intended) of Fossilman, strikes me as a serious case of small-man's disease. Is there an underlying issue between yourself and Greg that we don't know about? If you want to make a name for yourself, why don't you do it via the tables, instead of constant pointless attacks? If I agree with you will you drop this thread?
Thanks for the positive posting. I know I've come on a little strong on this topic and I apologize for that.
-SmoothB-
congrats for you, a day late and a dollar short for me. go get em.
That's twice too late for you, Ray. As soon as I got home from Vegas, I played in the next Tuesday night NL HE tourney, and won it running away. Now again a few weeks later. Of course, the field here on Tuesday is quite a bit softer than the TOC.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
but how are the keno games that you like so much.
They're always great ...
when you have those match-play coupons!
ykw (trademark)
x
Ok, I went through my poker diary to dig this one up. Here is a hand where I actually called a raise in the BB with a hand like 74 offsuit. It was 83 offsuit, to be precise.
I was in the BB at the final table with a big chip lead. There were 6 of us left. UTG folded, next player in raised all in. Everyone else folded, including the SB.
His raise was a fraction of the BB. Of course I called his bet. He would have taken the blinds and doubled if I folded, and I'd bust one more player with almost no risk to myself if he won. Furthermore, since it was a fraction of the BB to call he would not be much ahead if he did win.
Also, I knew that he could be raising here with anything. He knew that he would not survive another round of blinds, so he could be raising with any hand that he figured to be about the best one he'd see in the next 5 hands.
He had QT suited. I spiked a 3 on the turn and won. Now THIS was a no brainer. It did surprise me that a couple of people were surprised that I called his all in bet with 83 offsuit, but these were weaker players.
Again - situation dependent. I just thought I'd offer up an example of when I would call a bet with a hand like this by way of some kind of compromise to appease the angry masses. But note that this situation is vastly different from the one Greg posed.
Everybody happy now?
-SmoothB-
This reminds me of a related hand that was horribly misplayed.
I was playing in a little fun tournament - me and a couple of off duty dealers and 2 others. 200 dollar buy in, no limit tourney. Each of us got 100 chips, blinds started at 1-2, went up every 15 mins. We do these every so often for fun and practice.
Anyway it was down to one of the dealers and another player who is rather weak in these situations, although not a bad player overall.
The dealer was almost out of chips - he didn't even have enough to post the full BB. The other player mucked in the SB! He only had to call a small fraction of the SB to call but he mucked. He had rags and would have won.
This dealer is a good player. Now he had over 1BB. He was in the SB next hand with KJ offsuit. Pushed all in, the other guy must have realized his former mistake and called this time, dealer won. Now the dealer had around 3BB.
The dealer ended up coming back and winning that tournament and the 1000 we were playing for. Now, that is a case of where it could actually be a huge mistake NOT to call with something like 74 offsuit.
-SmoothB-
Immelda Marcos was obsessed with shoes.
Ken Starr was obsessed with the blue shirt.
SmoothB? 7-4 offsuit of course....
buwwwahahahaaaaaa.........
1. Never go broke in an unraised pot.
2. Don't go all in as a slight favorite against a far weaker opponent when there'll be opportunities later as a big favorite.
Anyone have comments/examples/experiences regarding these, esp. from big buy-in($1K+) NLHE tourneys?
Amen. Hopefully some other people around here will listen to these words from the master if they won't listen to me.
-SmoothB-
true in tournys somewhat, but in side games you may go broke in an unraised pot why not. you can just as easily break someone as well in one. Doyle meant that statement to refer to having a big pair and getting broke to a limper who hits two pair under cover.
2.if its your only money its a valid statement of course, but if you can reload then most times you should put your money in anytime you have any edge. the more you can put in the bigger winner you will be. i can asure you when doyle thinks he has any bit the best of it he bets big.
Put another way,
If you are getting 11 to 10 odds on a proposition and you bet your child's college fund, you are a degenrate fool.
If you are getting 11 to 10 odds and you risk a million bucks out of your ample bankroll, you just made a hundred grand. If you pass on this opportunity, you are a fool.
Securities arbitrageurs do this all of the time. For a LOT more money with a lot thinner edge.
This is most definitely true in cash games - no doubt. But we are specifically talking about tourneys here where survival is priority number one.
-SmoothB-
Winning is priority number one. Oftentimes that means surviving. Sometimes it requires gambling.
You don't know what you're talking about. Winning is NOT always priority number one. This statement makes you sound like you have no clue.
There are some times in tournaments when you know that you have no chance of winning the tournament. Let's say that you are 2 out of the money and you have 3X the BB in chips in front of you. One player has 2/3 of the chips in play. Sorry Charlie, you are not going to win this tournament.
Three short stacks, like you, push their stacks in. The huge stack goes all in after them. Throw those aces away. Poof. You're in the money. Aren't you happy now?
If you can't grasp this concept then don't act like I'M the stupid one.
-SmoothB-
If there are enough entrants in the tournament then you have more chance of winning in this spot than you did when you sat down at the start.
If you choose to insult me in response to this post I will not answer any of your posts in future. Do not take this as confirmation of your unanswerable logic, because it won't be.
Andy.
At the start of a big tournament the odds of you placing in the money are small and the odds of finishing #1 are tiny.
In THIS scenario, the odds of you placing in the money are effectively 100% if you make the move I suggest and the chances of you finishing #1 are slightly better than tiny.
No insult.
-SmoothB-
Smooth,
I'm glad we can keep this civil. Allow me to explain why I think tossing Aces in the situation you describe will cost you money. I'm going to fill in some numbers from the tournaments I play in as an example.
50 runners, £50 tournament, average 1 re-buy, £5000 in the pot and 100K chips in play. 11 players left, Blinds 300-600, you have 1800 chips. We can say that one player has 60K chips if you like, it really doesn't make much difference. Tournament pays 9 places as follows - £4500, 2000, 1350, 650, 400, 350, 300, 250, 200.
If you pass, you will be in the money. I have some software which calculates your equity in this kind of situation, I can explain how it works if you like, it basically applies the algorithm specified by Mason in "Gambling Theory and Other Topics". The gist is that you have a 1.8% chance of winning with 1.8% of the chips, so your equity from first place is 1.8% x 4500 = £81. Your chance of coming second is higher because if the chip leader wins, your opponents for 2nd place have fewer chips, etc., and so on down the placings. Your equity after folding this hand comes to £520.
If you call, Aces against 4 opponents with playable (not random) hands have about 45% chance of winning. So 55% of the time you will bust out with nothing (note that if you are not the very shortest stack, you might win a small sidepot to keep alive or you might claim 9th place if the big stack knocks everyone out, but I'm not going to include this). 45% of the time you win 5 x your 1800 plus the blinds which is 9900. With 9900 chips your equity increases to £1350. The equity of playing the hand is 45% x 1350 + 55% x 0 = £607.
Folding the Aces costs you £80. I concede that I thought it would cost more than that, and that if you were in a really big tournament like the WSOP or the TOC then the calculation would be different and it would probably be even closer.
The key is that, whatever you think of the numbers, playing this pot and winning it will increase your chances of winning five-fold. This compensates for the potential loss of guaranteed pay-out.
I believe that advice like folding Aces in this spot is dangerous for intermediate players because it has the smack of being a clever play which is very tempting. You are correct that you should fold more hands than normal in this kind of situation, but you're taking it too far by applying it to Aces. It is possible to make up a contrived situation where Aces should fold but it is so unlikely in practice you might see it once in a lifetime. I've heard a few "and I/he passed Aces because ..." stories, each time I've thought "bet he was wrong" in the first sentence, and each time I was right. Trying to be too clever for your own good is a major leak in _many_ peoples' games.
Questions and comments welcome. Note however that I am incommunicado for 3 days at the Reading Festival - Rock and/or Roll !!
Andy.
Thanks for the analysis. I can concede that in this specific example, if you were to be in this situation many times and played the aces, you would come out again. I admit that I just made up this scenario off the top of my head. But I think everyone can imagine that we could contrive a different scenario where it would be correct to fold AA.
Not that I want to sound argumentative - but there are other factors that would influence my decision, numbers aside.
1) If I were seated immediately to the right of players who were too tight in their blinds, I would not play the aces because I want to save what I have left to steal their blinds.
Etc
-SmoothB-
First, my name isn't Charlie, you *sshole.
Once again, you are trying to put words into my mouth that I never said. Once again, you make a sweeping, general comment, and then use a specific situation to defend it when challenged.
Please take your intellectual masturbation elsewhere. Obviously only Doyle and TJ are worthy of discussig poker with you.
Consider this the last response you'll see from me.
My name isn't a**hole, Charlie.
Earilier you said
'Winning is priority number one. '
I said 'not always' and I gave a clear example.
YOU are the one that claimed that *I* make sweeping generalizations. I don't make them, but you did. And I refuted it.
-SmoothB-
Michael.Welcome to the clueless club. Greg is president so hell fill you in.
Can I be Treasurer? Its got higher EV than President.
Dont ask me.I havent got a clue!!You could try asking Andy.I think he just joined.
If I work really hard at my game for about 10 years, by then I would be very flattered to be considered clueless enough to join a club with Greg, Michael and Padraig.
Andy.
(apologies to suck-up haters :-))
I wish I could quote this verbatim but the gist of it goes like this. It regards starting with AA.
Limit Holdem - the nuts
Pot limit holdem - great
no limit holdem - very good
7 stud - pretty good
omaha 8 or better - not worth much
Fact is in limit holdem there's no hand I'd risk my stack with in certain spots. In other spots they're the nuts. KK is FAR WORSE than AA but people don't seem to recognize that fact. Sure it's second only to AA, but my oh my what a distant second it is.
Just like some people don't recognize that AQ is far worse than AK, or why. Some people will read this and not have a clue what I'm talking about.
Look at the huge thread in the holdem forum just a short while back. I was absolutely dumbstruck by the enormous amount of people that thought it was ludicrous to fold AQ in the face of an early raiser. Some of those people are actually good players.
When some people raise b4 the flop I can't get AQ offsuit into the muck fast enough.
-SmoothB-
"Fact is in limit holdem there's no hand I'd risk my stack with in certain spots".
You do mean no-limit holdem, right ?
Andy.
Yes that's what I meant. Sorry.
SB
SmoothB,
You said,"omaha 8 or better - not worth much." Concerning a pair of aces. Aces will do well heads up.
Last night in a no limit tournament this hand happened that caused some debate at our table.
I'm the chip leader at the table (which has been pretty agressive) when I get AA utg. Since the table is so agressive and since I'm the chip leader, I want more than to win the blinds. I want someone to raise then I'll reraise all-in. So I limp.
But not only does no one raise, but several limp and there are 5 of us seeing a flop. This is the only hand of the night at my table where 5 players saw a flop.
The flop is K56 and I push all-in, not wanting to fool around anymore....button, who is 2nd chip leader at the table, calls and wins with K6. My stack is cut in half and I ended up not making the money.
Some at the table said my move was correct, just didn't work out this time. Others said I misplayed the hand.
Opinions?
JohnnyD
Not a bad play before the flop, but why do you push all-in on the flop rather than checking and getting some information? The pot is probably small relative to the size of your bet, and you are only likely to get called if beat.
I'm not sure what info I would have received. If they have K6 they might bet. But what if they had AK, or KQ or maybe KJ. They might have bet and I would be ahead. I just not sure, in this case, that you could rely on knowing what a bet meant. If somebody bets, do you fold the overpair if you're the chip leader?
JohnnyD
If the only button bets, I probably test him, so Iit might not have mattered here. But that is not alwasy the case in a multi-way pot.
But if it's check-raise all-in by a tight player in the blind, its a much different story. You're more likely to be facing a set than KJ. This is not a heads-up pot. You are in early position, and were the preflop aggresor. You could/should have AK. You might be looking to check-raise, and most players aren't looking to bluff the chip leader with nothing or tangle with a marginal kicker. So, IMO a bet from a lot of players signals that they have AT LEAST AK. A raise would tell me they can beat AK, especially with a ragged board.
In short, you could gain a lot of information by checking.
How aggresive had you been up to this point? I would say (although I don't have a lot of no limit experience) that maybe a small raise would be in order to at least limit the field a little and hope you get re-raised. On the flop, I would make a fairly big bet but not neccessarily move all in. What hands that wouldn't raise before the flop will call you here? Looks like only ones that you can't beat. If you get raised, you have to consider throwing the hand away.
I had been as agressive as the rest of them. It was not uncommon for players to push all their chips in. Even though I was the chip leader at my table, I hadn't had to show many of my hands. Most of my money was made by either raising and winning or re-raising and having the original raiser fold.
I considered raising preflop a small amount and seeing if I get reraised. I either would have probably won had I done that. The player with K6 would have never played the hand for a raise. But that's hindsite.
As far as what hand would call after the flop (K56)...how about AK or KQ or maybe even KJ. There were chances that I would have been paid off. No way to put someone on K6.
JohnnyD
If you said that the table was very aggresive, wouldn't AK or KQ have raised before the flop?
Not to mention that since your the chip leader, you have everybody covered so it would be very difficult for someone to risk all of his chips with something less than two pair.
These are just my thoughts. I'm a begginner to no limit to take it for what it's worth.
Good points....
I probably should not have gone all in after the flop. But with a flop of K65 against several limpers, I gotta think I'm ahead. And even if I make a small bet after the flop, I'm not sure I can fold this to a raise. Maybe thats a leak in my game, but I just don't know if, against that flop, I'm going to think somebody has me beat. But they did.
JohnnyD
Stu Ungar was quoted as saying it was ok to limp with the aces preflop but once nobody raised and he missed the flop that was about it.
Tricky. This is why I don't like to limp with AA or indeed anything really (though there are always exceptions). How aggressive had you been up to that point (as someone else mentioned) ? I prefer to get my deception from raising as much as possible when first into the pot, and then raising as well with AA/KK etc. to hope that someone thinks I'm at it.
If 5 people have limped I would assume that the table is virtually full, and assuming that (as is common), the bulk of the prize money is concentrated in the top 3 or 4 places, this is a spot where, with a big stack, you don't want a big confrontation. OK with Aces you're happy to take anyone on heads-up or even three-handed but it's more important to protect your stack than to increase it at this point. This points me towards raising, and if you just win the blinds, well them's the breaks.
It's not necessarily bad to limp with the Aces, on another night you would have got the raise and the re-raise would have done the trick. There's more than one way to skin a cat, I think the most important thing is to integrate your game so it all fits together (for example, if you are playing aggressively and raising a lot then you _must_ also raise when you have the goods).
Andy.
If you don't get raised before the flop, be prepared to toss them (believe me it's hard to do). If the flop does not help me I'll usually put in a bet just to see if I can pick up the pot, but if someone raises me I'll usually toss them like I should. Most of your decent opponents will have it in there head that the guy that limps in UTG possibly has a big pair, so if they raise you, you can bet that they have a set, two pair, or a monster draw. If I get called, I'll usually bet on the turn again. Same as before, if I get raised I toss them. If I get called again I'll check it on the river.
Sounds like the overall opinion is that my preflop move was okay, but since no one raised, it just didn't work. But after the flop with that many callers, I should have put in a smaller bet and folded if/when raised.
I'll buy that.
JohnnyD
Since we havent' heard from a higher authority regarding some of the topics of debate here recently, I thought I'd throw out a couple of quotes from TJ Cloutier's book.
p. 115
'...a pair of kings is not a big enough hand to get broke with. The only hand that is big enough to get broke with before the flop is two aces.'
How would you interpret this in respect to risking your stack with KK in a multiway pot? I think TJ would agree with me here.
I am trying to find a direct quote about calling raises with trash hands. He does say:
p. 152
'If someone puts in a pot sized raise before the flop, you dump the hand when out of position. If you are only slightly out of position...and no one raises the pot, you can limp with the hand.'
Now, what do you think he would have to say about calling raises with 74 offsuit?
-SmoothB-
What TJ says and what TJ does is two different things.
JohnnyD
No offense, but you still haven't answered my question about the value of going all in to drive out opponents or to win the pot right there? Doesn't this add a great deal of value to the move?
The second part of this posting, TJ is talking about SUITED CONNECTORS, not true trash hands.
SB
SmoothB, I've only been posting here for a month or two. I've seen lots of your post, but I'm not sure who you are? How about a short bio.
JohnnyD
I thought that the one thing we did all agree on was that no two situations are exactly the same, and that each play has to be considered in the exact context of your opponents, their state of mind, how they perceive you, and a million other factors. In fact that's what I thought you said in a post below.
Quoting single sentences out of a book out of context is not strengthening your argument at all.
Andy.
SmoothB,
TJ's advice refers to the early stages of the WSOP final event. If you played this tight in a small tournament, as someone else once said, "you'll go like Broomcorns Uncle." The point I'm making is you need to adjust you hand values depending on how many hands you will see per blind and or ante increases. I suggest that you read ajusting to the antes for more information.
If you play 7CS, the players adjust to the increases in antes. In a low-limit game like $1-$5 there are no antes. In a $20-$40 game there is usually a $3 antes. My point is this, you cannot sit around and wait for the best hands or you'll get anted to death. The same goes for tournament play. So, reading your opponents is even more important in tournament play than in a ring game.
Quite often in a tournament you have to make a move before you get anted to death. This is why you'll see these types of hands played like 7-4, 10-3, or whatever. Hands that you would not usually play in a normal ante ring game. So, you can not just look at the odds to see if you're getting the best of it now. It's the best of it in the long run. Sometimes, you need to play 7-2 offsuit just to influence your opponents that you are capable of playing any hand.
At the risk of entering the "clueless club" I am going to reccomend that people not respond to SmoothB and his 74o rants any longer.
Who cares? It's been discussed to death, and I have a feeling people aren't going to be changing their minds anytime soon.
Doing my part to ensure tranquility,
Max
Welcome aboard.
SmoothB, in the "Doyle Brunson's Two 'Laws'" thread, the following posts took place:
From Michael7: > Winning is priority number one. Oftentimes that means > surviving. Sometimes it requires gambling.
This is all M7 wrote. Not a single other word.
Here is your response: > You don't know what you're talking about. Winning is > NOT always priority number one. This statement makes > you sound like you have no clue. >[snip] > If you can't grasp this concept then don't act like > I'M the stupid one.
Let's look at the first words out of your mouth, "You don't know what you're talking about." Well, that's just not a polite thing to say, is it? It does nothing to prove your point, it only serves to insult somebody.
You then make a correct statement about winning is not the only priority. I agree with that statement. M7 overemphasized his position in his position. Maybe he meant to saying "winning money" is priority number one, as opposed to "winning the tournament" is priority number one. If he meant the latter, I disagree with him, as my goal is different. However, the impact of your rebuttal is lost by it's neighboring words.
You next say "This statement makes you sound like you have no clue." Again, this only serves as an insult. I snipped some stuff that made some sense above. Your final comment is "If you can't grasp this concept then don't act like I'M the stupid one." First off, where did M7 say, or even imply, that you're stupid? I see nothing of the sort in his post. Second, why do you aver that he can't grasp the concept? Maybe he likes to play to win, and cares more about the glory than the money? If so, his goal and my goal do not coincide, but that doesn't mean he's unable to grasp my goal.
I would ask you to think a little more before you hit the "Post Message" button, and to reread your posts. Insulting people who haven't insulted you only makes you look mean and ignorant. It does not help convince anybody else that you're correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ok, I apologize. I will try to be a little nicer in future.
-SmoothB-
Greg-
Actually, I did mean winning the tournament is priority number 1, so we will have to disagree here. At least at the start of the tournament taht is always my goal, but I always adjust to the circumstances and am not opposed to sliding up in the money if others are playing too aggressively and I am short stacked. But early on, if I am getting 1.7-1 odd and the like on 50/50 propositions, I am getting my chips in there.
I actually did imply (in a separate post) that SmoothB said something stupid. It was the post where he said to call for 20% of your chips with KK and then fold if you don't flop a set. That's stupid, especially coming form a self-proclaimed know-it-all.
I am through with this guy.
You, however, are another story.
I hope to personally send you to the rail at FARGO. Do you have a partner for the pairs tourney? I am going to partner with Peter Alson, but neither of us is to keen on O8.
I already acknowledged that I made an error when I said I would stick 20% of my chips in with KK and then fold on the flop if I didn't hit a set. So I admit I'm wrong there.
TJ intimates in his book that he WOULD often do this, however. So I am not so sure that it is that stupid after all. I can provide a quote if people express interest. In any event, I refer you to that text for further reading.
-SmoothB-
Actually, having read TJ's book (on NL and PL HE), I don't like it. I think that much of his advice is overly simplistic and too absolutely worded, and some of it just seems wrong. Basically, while the general statements he makes may be correct often, there are numerous exceptions, and he doesn't teach you how to recognize those exceptions.
The main problem I see is that if you played as tight preflop and postflop as suggested in this book, you would never be able to win a tourney unless the deck ran over you, and you would always be a (small) loser in a cash game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Two years ago, TJ busted me out of the final table of a 2nd chance NLH event during the USPC on the following hand. We both had above- average stacks, it was 7-handed and the blinds/antes were really up there (about 10-15% of the average stack per orbit).
I open with a big raise on the button with ATo. TJ calls in the big blind, we both have about 1/3 of our stack in there. Flop misses me by a mile 558, two spades. I don't have a spade. Check-check.
Turn is a nice ten, but also a spade. TJ checks and I move all-in. He beats me into the pot and I know I'm on the rail unless a miracle ten falls. Another spade hits and TJ says "I can't beat a flush" as he turns over his Ac5c.
I say something like "I don't recall seeing that play in your book, TJ." And he responds "You don't think I would put the good stuff in there, do you?"
I think he really meant it, too.
Heh heh this is funny. No I realize that the play TJ describes is way too tight and overly paranoid. Always folding AA when the flop comes rags (no ace) and someone puts a little heat on it? Please.
I kind of regret wasting my money on that book, frankly. I learned to play no limit on my own, playing against off duty dealers and friends. Everything I read in that book seems contrary to what I learned in practice.
All I wanted to do was admit that I misspoke when I said I would fold on the flop with KK if I didn't hit a set.
-SmoothB-
There should be a ban on disgusting nasty players. Like the one that got baned from the W.S.O.P.M. M__k_ L__ng You Fill In The rest.And there are a lot of other players. They Know who the are. If you dump them from the tournaments then ther will be a better rating in the sport, and also a better turnout.
THE KING
YES YOU ARE RIGHT IF YOU MEAN MIKE LANG AND ABNER THEY ARE A BUNCH OF DRUNGS
You mean Mike LaIng and AVner. Yes they are bunch of drungs. Although 2 guys is a pretty small bunch.
I've played a few satellites with Abner. Get him pissed off and he'll go on tilt and lose his chips. Don't let his attitude get to you. He likes putting people down. You need to make him feel uncomfortable. After he loses a hand, tell him how poorly he played it. Or, if he lays down a hand, tell him that his opponent was bluffing. You have to fight fire with fire.
I always had fun playing poker with M__k_L__ng You Fill In The rest. But maybe it's just because he's the only one who drinks more beer than I do at the table.
yes i even heard johnny chan and phil helmouth were snorting toot, the white stuff in the mens room, together w.s.o.p.
A discussion recently came up at a small buy-in No Limit Hold'Em tourney about AK. A very good player says that AK is probably not a raising hand before the flop because you can't defend it after if it doesn't hit. It seems to me that it can be defended just by betting. Others had the same chance to improve that you did but if no one improves, you are the leader (excepting pocket pairs, of course) and even then you are only a slight dog. Comments?
I tend to agree with your comments.
Is it any easier to defend 66 after the flop when 1 or 2 overcards have hit? Again, if the flop hit your opponent, you are behind, but if it missed, you're ahead and would like to bet and make them fold before they catch up.
It is hard to play AK correctly, as you will need to make a lot of correct judgments about when you're ahead, behind, when you can successfully semi-bluff when behind, etc. However, it should be one of the hands that you almost always play when it is dealt to you, so it is important to learn to play it well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Big slick is ALOT easier to play in these small buy-in tournaments with short stacks and high blind structures. I love to look down and see it.
In a deep money, cash game. Picking up AK under the gun against tough opponents is the classic mixed blessing. Like your mother-in-law driving off a cliff...
...in your new Jaguar.
AK IS a raising hand - you want to raise the hand so as not to get a call. If you hit, you are usually a big fav to win the pot. I just don't like calling really big bets with AK or multi way raised pots with good players as your cards are probably all gone.
I think AK is the most misplayed hand in tournaments.
Usually if I don't hit it, it is in the muck.
PL O tourney, lots of maniacs. Buy in in austrian schillings (ats) 250 + 50,--, unlimited rebuys and 2 possible add ons. For your buy in and the rebuys (250)you get 400 in chips, each add on (250) gets you 600.
Blinds after the add ons will be 50/100. Average chipcount will be estemated 3000 after most people make the add ons.
I have 2500 in chips, didn´t have to make any rebuy.
First price will ~ ats 20k, 9th lpace pays ~ 1k.
Add on or not?
M.A.
I'd double add on - the 1200 in chips is a deal compared to the buy in.
I's need 6000 before considering no add on.
You have just been moved to another table and in the bb with K2o - you have T$6500 blinds are 100/200 and UTG and button both call both are unkonwn to you but are older (in 70's).
Flop comes K95r - you bet and are called by both.
Turn a blank.
Do you.
A. Bet B. check call C. check fold D. check raise
This hand occured at soaring eagle yesterday and I'll post my play later - just wondering what you guys would do.
check pass.
C
interesting point Bill.Hard to argue with.
check/fold
If two players called my flop bet, I'd check the turn and fold to a bet.
Yeah that is what I thought - you all picked the check fold option - like I did at the time - I was tempted to check raise because of the players in this card room loving to play 2nd pair strongly - a pair of 9's took it down I think the other guy just got out kicked.
What do you think of checking the flop to try to obtain some information before committing any money ? I'm quite wary of this kind of situation in an unraised pot.
Andy.
Andy,
I think a check here was the best course - I hated my hand - checking only to fold to a bet - I also would have been wary of checks all around - lots of tricky players in this house and the fact that these were old guys my bet on the flop and fold was what I thought was the best course of action.
But I could have been wrong.
Unfortunately you were in a situation where you had to probably see this hand through to the river. I don't agree with checking the flop in this short handed situation. I would have bet the turn and check called on the river. Check calling the turn is also an option.
If this were not a tournament I would have done just that - I play tournaments a bit tighter. As it turned out it didn't make any difference to my final result the hand that killed me was an AT where I hit 2 pair on the flop and lost to runner runner flush.
Funny I went out with AdTd.
Guess AT is not a great hand for me.
Good point Rounder. I was thinking that you did have quite a few chips in relation to bet size but maybe I misread it. But I understand your point about tightening up.
its going to cost you 800 (of your 6100) to win 2100-2900 (depending on the play of the third player) if you check call all the way down. of course it matters which of the other players bets and his position to you, a check raise is probably preferable to a check call if you have a player left to act behind you. but anyways i would probably check, fold because players usually play a little tighter at this stage of a tourney. i would consider betting again if they were low on chips (less than 500)
Limit HE tournament - early rounds, no rebuys. You have 1 Big Bet left and are on the button. Five callers limp to you (6.5 SB in the pot).
a) Do you call with anything to get the odds? 4-7o?
b) Do you raise with anything to get the odds? 4-7o?
c) What do you call with - if not a or b?
d) What do you raise with - if not a or b or c?
Any differences when on final table?
Desperate times indeed. When you're near-fatally short stacked like this, you're looking for a situation where you can get your last chips in against as few opponents as possible. With 5 limpers in already I would need a good hand to make my stand here. A very good hand. 74 or any other trash goes straight in the bin. Exactly how good my hand needs to be depends on how likely it is that the limpers would fold to a raise.
In summary, a) No b) No c) Nothing because if you play then you raise d) depends.
Andy.
I would call with any hand that looks like a chip favorite, i.e., any hand that I would call with in the same situation if this were a ring game. So, no, 74o doesn't qualify.
If my hand is probably ahead, then I would raise all-in. This is important for knocking out the blinds, as none of the limpers is likely to fold for one more bet. This includes especially hands like AQ, AJ. You would hate to have limped with these, see a flop like KQx, and lose to K2 in the blinds. The same applies for hands like KK, QQ, JJ, as you would hate to lose to the only overcard that hit, and that you could have raised out preflop.
If I had a small pair, I might just call, and be prepared to fold if I don't flop a set, AND there is strong reason to believe that I must spike a set to win. I say this because you're getting 6.5 to 1 already. Heck, you're about 5:1 to make a set if you stick it out to the river, so even if you raise here it's not a bad play, just maybe not as good as calling.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, it's no surprise that I don't agree with Greg's advice - but it's nothing personal - just a difference of opinion.
You have one big bet left. In order to make a comback you must play and win one hand before you get blinded out.
That means that you have to play what ever hand that you figure to be the best one you'll get in the next 8 hands or so.
74 is a bad choice - especially with all those limpers. Obviously, being on the button gives you no advantage whatsoever because you will be all in.
I would still wait. Fold and see the next hand. Obviously as each hand passes and you get closer to the blinds, you have to be less selective about what hand you'll go all in on.
No matter what happens, if you get to the point where you are UTG, you MUST raise all in with any hand. You have to take whatever hand fortune has given you up against the fewest number of people you can. If you wait till the blind then you might get 72 offsuit against 5 callers as your last hand. (This happened to me once.)
I would raise all in with any ace, any 2 cards over 9, any suited face card, any pocket pair.
There is just no way that you can simple call and fold if you don't flop right. Then you are left with one SB and you can't thin the field with that.
Good luck in the future.
-SmoothB-
Agree except the UTG comment I would muck 2 cards under 8 - un connected unsuited for a better random hand in the bb. Small point but I have held out for bb inthis very situation and was delt premium hands.
Could be worth the wait.
Your point is well taken. However, as a matter of personal preference, I would prefer to get the field - limiting effect of raising UTG with a trash hand than risk getting a similar trash hand and having to take it against several people.
If the tournament rules permit it, I suppose you could just post a double blind if you do wait for the blinds - this is your last chance and maybe you will be able to thin the field out a wee bit.
-SmoothB-
Of course the longer you wait the more chances there are for bust outs and you move up the pay outladder.
Who knows - I once chopped 6 ways (had the button) with one chip left I had to fork over $200 to the number 2 chip leader to make the deal but I made $1100 when 6th was $450 and that was what I was looking at.
I agree. I would say "you must play whatever _situation_ you figure to be the best one you'll get" rather than _hand_ but I should imagine this is what you meant.
Andy.
a) Do you call with anything to get the odds? 4-7o?
No.
b) Do you raise with anything to get the odds? 4-7o?
No.
c) What do you call with - if not a or b?
I'd want coupled cards here and any play in your situation I'd have to raise. With anything I could call with.
d) What do you raise with - if not a or b or c?
I'd wait for a better situation on the button full table maybe I can get a good hand before the blinds eat me up.
Your in really bad shape here BUT I have won from this position as I am sure many others have.
Be cool and get lucky.
Percentage payback tournaments put a premium on survival in many situations. This idea is more important as the tournament progresses into the later rounds. So you are faced with the decision of trying to win a moderately large pot a very small percentage of the time, or waitling for a hopefully better hand that will probably allow you to win a moderate size pot a larger percentage of the time. If survival is now important, it should be easy to see that the second option is best and that you should wait.
I´ve played 75 tourneys this year and wanted to know your oppinion about my statistic.
In 75 tourneys (most of them weekly tourneys with between 60 and 80 players, most of them REAL bad), I didn´t make any money 55 times(!) which seems ridiculous to me. The longest no-winning-streak was 14 tourneys! I don´t consider myseld to be a good player compared to most of you, but where I play, 95% of the players know nothing at all about poker. This makes this statistic even looke worse.
On the other side, in the 20 tourneys I made the final I came in
1st 3 times alone making a deal twohanded twice 2nd 3 times 3rd 1 " 4th 1 " 5th 3 " 6th 0 " 7th 5 " 8th 1 " 9th 1 "
which I think is OK (making top 3 almost 50%)
Can anybody of you good players give me your tourney-stats?
I know that you need ~ 1000 hrs of playing to get any statement from your stats in ring games, but how many tourneys do you have to play?
What do you think can be the reason for not making the money that often. Am I playing to loose? (Might be, but most tourneys have 20 or 25 minutes rounds after the break, so playing too tight is a mistake too, and I´m still one of the tightest players here around)
Any comments appreciated
Regards
M.A.
My tournament stats are in my tax papers but I played 89 tournaments last year - in the money 32% of the time and won or had 1st some 1st place money (2 or 3 way chops)12 times.
I think 60 to 75% of the players in the tournaments I played in were mostly dead money.
Most of the tournaments were 100+ with $30 to $100 buy ins. I also played in several "majors".
I did best in NL no rebuy situations.
M.A.,
We're missing the most important (and perhaps only important) statistic - bottom line $$.
If 9 players get paid, as you imply, your % of money finishes is 20/75 = 27% compared to the average of 9/70 = 13% so I don't think you need to worry about this. More to the point, focusing on this could be counterproductive. $$ is all that counts, and you make the most $$ by going for a top place finish rather than sneaking in.
And, although it's connected with the first point, we don't know how often you're rebuying. This is why $$$ is all that really matters.
Don't worry about losing streaks, I ran up a 20+ earlier in my career and 14 is entirely expectable.
Finally, by the time you have enough tournaments to form a statistically significant sample, you should have gained enough experience and new ideas over that time such that you are a better player than at the start of the sample and so I think you can't actually get a statistical measure, you just have to rate your play against what you see around you.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
One of the problems I have noticed with myself is when I get a very low chip count compared to the blinds, I am not sure when to go all-in. I tend to wait to long to go all-in and end up blinding out looking for the good hand to bet.
Last night, I make it to the final table in a NL Holdem tourney with T800. Blinds are 400-800. I start the table on the button. I have the least amount of chips. I end up blinding out and ending up in 8th place.
The following are the 8 hands I am dealt and the amount bet to me:
86o (no raises) K2o (raise to 2100) JTo (raise to 2000) Q4s (no raises) blinds increase to 800-1500. 74o (no raises) 72o (no raises) 63s (no raises) 42o (big blind All-in and lose)
I am thinking I should have either went all-in with JTo or Q4s.
Thanks for any ideas, Ken
I wouldn't call a raise with JT unsuited, but I would raise with it. Same for Q4, suited or not, come in with a raise, but don't call. You'll most likely be playing heads up, so the bigger the cards, the better off you will be. I like to have at least one card higher than a trey and the other nine or better.
I don't think he could have raised as the blinds were as much as he had in front of him.
You're right he would have had to have two big blinds. But, usually if you come into late position with a hand only one of the blinds will play against you. He waited too long.
Ken,
The real key I think is not to let it go this far. If you have been blinded down to 800 (rather than having lost a pot to get in this spot), you really should have been looking to do something the round before. When you have 2000 then you can put in a 1200 raise which will make people think twice about calling. Hopefully then you can get heads-up with something half-decent or even nick the blinds entirely if the BB doesn't know the score.
So, if I'm sitting with 2000 and the blinds coming up at 400-800, I consider the Big Blind hand to be the absolute last I can make my move on, and take it from there (unless something unusual happens like a super-rock re-raises or whatever, there are always exceptions). Now, in this spot, I want to be the raiser, and if there's a limper before me I will up my standards quite a bit. Absolute hand values required depend on how loose the game is, but remember that 2 decent cards are better than a lone Ace or King and any pair is good if you have a good chance of getting heads up.
Finally, if this means you have to take a risk one or two places out of the money, then do it. After all, what do you win for 8th, BFH Bus Fare Home as Jim Bowen used to say.
Andy.
You just ran out of cards - and chips at the same time.
I would have probably done the same think you did looking for a decent hand to play. I may have played the JT.
When faced with this position if I would rather play against a raiser when I have very few chips... especially if hes an aggressive player who isnt likely to be holding AA KK QQ etc when he raises..
The reason is I am likely to be heads up with him... but if I get lucky I dont just win the blinds... I win the raisers chips too.
Obviously I wont play for a raise with total garbage.... but if I believe my cards are live and connecting... for sure I will put them in there and then.... the J10 looks like the perfect spot to me.
I certainly wouldnt wait for the BB.. if you get lucky and win this pot.... you are liable to only win the SBs money and you will need to win at least one more pot to get back in the race..
Cheers,
Keith
Hey Hawk,
Agree with you I like the part about calling an aggressive player whon doesn't need a big pair to raise - let's just hope we aren't ever in this position again - :-)
Mike
Thanks for the ideas.
I agree with a lot of the comments I have received. I hate getting into this position myself. The tough thing about this tournament is the rounds are 12 minutes only. We were playing 12 or 13 hands a round. I was able to double up twice to get from T500 to T2000 with (QT & 77). After those hands I didn't get anything and then the blinds ate 1200 of my chips.
Next time I might go for JT but when my chips are getting close to twice the big blind, it is probably time to make my stand even with lesser hands.
Ken
i frequently play in a tournament with agood friend of mine where we start out heads up w/ about $400 in chips to start with, 10-20 blinds (no limit). he plays loose agressive, he often will go all in on 8 out draws when i bet the size of the pot on the flop ( ussually with top pair). he loves to go all in pre flop with small pairs. however i ussually try to play tight agr. , i make many big lay downs, maybe too many. i play my high pairs real slow until the turn or sometimes river , i make it 80 to go pre flop with mid. to small pairs with the intention to go all in on the flop unless the flop looks scary. i usually smooth call most other handswith some occ. raises. anyways i was just loking for some feedback on the way i play and any tips or other stratagies.
Sounds like you can pick him off more often than not. Wait for a hand and trap him and have the courage to believe in your play.
If you are the stronger player, your friend might be right in go all-in preflop alot. Becuse it might give him a bigger chance to win against you.
he does like to go all-in alot preflop, especially if I have a large chip lead on him. If he gets down to around 150 or lower he goes all in about 90% of the time (preflop). what hands would you recommend calling him with, when he could have anything. I ussually only call with two high cards and any pairs.
Well, here are the hands that are at least 50% favorites against 2 random cards:
any pair any A any K Q2s Q5o J6s J8o T7s T9o 98s
Of course, when I list a hand like T7s, it is implied that all like but better hands are included. That is, T7s includes T9s, T8s, and T7s.
Unsurprisingly, this is almost half of all the hands. I would probably play these, maybe a notch tighter. Theoretically, you are getting the best of it as long as your selection is just slightly tighter than his. That is, if he's playing 90%, you could play 80% and you're getting the best of it. However, to maximize your edge, you should play tighter than that. I think that playing between the top 40-50% of starting hands is probably about right.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
alright that makes sense greg. however i feel that i am a big favorite to him if i can see the flop ( I out play him all the time) so therefore shouldn't i be more selective than that( ie 40-50%) if i keep folding until i get a premium hand than i can get his chips that way (hopefully), or if no hands come eventually i get to see a flop. and if you could tell me how to figure out how big a favorite one hand is to another (like Ax to JT) that would help alot. thanx again for your help i am pretty new to the game and am thirsty for accurate knowledge.
There is no specific way to figure out how much of a favorite your hand is unless you have the software to run the thing out (either by randomly playing the hands out millions of times, or by crunching every possible combination to get the exact answer). Sklansky published something a while back in one of the poker magazines that gave the rough approximation for each category of matchup (e.g., overpair vs. underpair, pair vs. one overcard, etc.).
However, I have a table I printed out a few years ago that shows the equity of each possible starting hand versus 2 random cards. That's where I got my list that I provided to you in the prior post.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The following 5 hands occured in yesterdays weekly PL HE tourney. 8 Tables at the beginning, First prize pays ~1500$, 9th place ~100$. Total chip amount: 1,200.000.
First hand: We are down to 3 tables, an hyperaggressive player just calls on the button first in (ALARM). Blinds are 1500 and 3000. I decide to fold QT in the SB being pretty sure that the button has AA or KK (I never saw him limping from the button first in before). At this time I had about 45000 in chips, BB 20000, Button 60000.
Flop came QT4, all diamonds. Now my question: How should I play this hand if I was in the pot? (e.g. BB)?
The hand was played this way: BB checks the flop, Button too (even more ALARM!!!). Turn: offsuit J. BB checks, Button playes pot, BB folds, Button shows two red Aces (just what I had thought).
If I had called preflop, I had a nice chance do double up and become tourney chip leader. But it would have been a coin flip.
How to play this hand if I am in?
M.A.
I think you would have to bet the pot on the flop. The BB could have any diamond and you have to knock him out if possible. How you play if a fourth diamond comes up at any point is a real judgement call.
Andy.
Button really played this hand badly - from the flop. He is predictable but the flop is full of danger and he should have bet his big pair. I see it a lot in tournaments - guys trying to be tricky just trick themselves into an early drive home.
Far as your muck of QT - you made the right play at the right time - never look at thr flop and wonder what MIGHT have been - you have to look at your decisions WHEN you made them and your muck was correct however for 1/2 a bet the QT muck was a marginal fold.
If you were in the hand and flop top 2 pair you have to play them strongly. Bet the pot on the flop hope fully lose the bb and now you are fav. drawing live he is drawing live too. Good chance to double up.
I would have been in. For T1500, and you are HIGHLY confident of exactly what the button is holding, you should go for it, IMO. You're risking T1500 to win over T50,000.
If you were in, I'd bet enough so that when he makes his pot-sized raise, this will represent half or so of his stack, so bet about T6,000. Then when he raises to about T27,000, you can go all-in. Or, you can call and see if the bottom card pairs, or if an A or K comes. Then bet all-in on the turn.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Couldn't resist...
Couldn't resist.
Now we are down to 3 tables, 10 players left. Blinds are 5000 and 10000. One player on the other table has about 9000 left, I got about 80000.
The chipleader on my table (~150000) raises pot in first position. This player doesn´t play very well, and I´m sure, that he will call if I raise all in no matter what he has. He is and doctor of medicines and doesn´t really care about the money we can win at this tourney, since it isn´t very much for him. He is just here for gambling, but still plays at his best this day.
I look down to see QQ. After thinking a little I muck the hand. The doctor showed me his hand: 99)
Any comments?
Funny thing: I showed my hand to a friend of mine, and after the hand was over, he told everybody that I had QQ. I didn´t really care about that. After the next player was eliminated, I went to the restroom, and even there I could hear them laughing about me, that I folded QQ. This is unthinkable under any circumstances here in vienna. I´m sure, they´ll still talk about this laydown and laugh about me in in 2 weeks :-) )
M.A.
It's not his calling standards that matter so much here, it's his raising standards. And the real question is what would he do with AA or KK in this spot ? A lot of players in my game tend to flat-call in early positions with these hands. If he is this type of player, it is an easy all-in re-raise from you. I'd still be tempted anyway because from your original post there are 1.2 million chips in play so you would need about 120-150K to be comfortable at the final table. If I had more than that, and the raiser did too, a fold becomes more of a consideration.
Sounds like a good game BTW - maybe now that people know you laid down the QQ you can use their perception of you to your advantage in future.
Andy.
Well Andy, you are definitly right, when you think that this is a good game. Sometimes it´s kind of crazy though, but who cares.
There is just one thing I don´t like: The casino garantees ats 50.000,-- (= ~ 3.600$), and since the buy in (and each of the rebuys + 1 add on) is only ats 250,-- and there aren´t too many players, they want the players to make as many rebuys as possible. So they created something what is called the "rebuy kaiser" (in english it should be something like the emperior of rebuys), what means that the player with the most rebuys gets a price (ats 2.000,--). So there are a lot of maniacs who just raise almost every hand. Yesterday the guy who won this price made 17(!) rebuys!!!!! Of course it´s not funny, when such a guy sits on your table, but we really have lots of chips in this tourneys, which helps a lot.
If you can make it, you should take a couple of days of coming to vienna playing poker. I promise, you would be surprised what yuo can see here.
Regards
M.A.
3 tables 10 players left - I am confused.
Also if you can't call or reraise with a premium hand here you are playing way to tight. Specially against a known bad player.
Biggest mistake here is showing the QQ. Maybe you can use it against them since you are now considered ultra tight/weak.
Your description of this player makes this laydown even more confusing. If you felt that he was a weak player and was apt to call your all-in on weak hands, this is exactly why you should raise all-in. It looks like you missed a golden oppurtunity to double through.
I think you are both right. I really mucked this hand like a complete idiot.
My reasoning for folding was, that I simply knew thought I play way better then them. So I wanted to outplay them on the final table. But folding this hand was a worse play than all of the remaining 9 players would make.
BTW, of course there were 2 tables left. Sorry for that
M.A.
We are down to 8 players, Blinds are 5.000 and 10.000. I got ~120.000.
Everyone folds to the button (T 50.000). He just calls. I think that he is the best player of my opponents and am a little confused that he did not raise. But this time I don´t think, that my opponent must have AA or KK.
I´m in the SB and have A6h. I call, BB (T ~65000) checks.
Flop: 9d 7h 5d. I check, BB bets Pot (30.000), Button folds (I was still afraid of him, that was the reason why I did not bet). After thinking a little I think that there are good chances that I have the best hand, or at least I have some probably 11 outs and a backdoor flush. I raise the BB all in, he hesitates and after a long time folds showing me his J6. Just as I thought, I had the best hand.
Comments
M.A.
I think you got a bit lucky here. I'm not dead keen on the pre-flop call though for 5K into a 30K pot maybe it's not too bad. The problem is when you flop an Ace you'll be out of position and won't know where you stand.
You may be a little optimistic with 11 outs on the flop, presuming you mean the Aces, 6s and 8s there is a good chance that a 6 is no good because your opponent may well have a 7, 8 or 9.
If you had a read on the BB though it was a good raise. Certainly the raise is better than a call.
Andy.
I don't know where you get 11 outs but I like your bold play here. Maybe the fold of the QQ paid dividends here. At the final table the boldest players tend to win the money.
No we lost one more player, Blinds still 5k and 10k. I´m in the BB, and UTG (the same player who had J6 the hand before) calls (he has about 30k left after calling), everyone folds to the SB, he calls, I check (Jc 8h) (T 180k)
Flop: Qc 8d 4c. SB checks, I check, UTG goes all in with 30k, SB folds.
Call or fold?
I thought for a pretty long time and called, thinking that I either had the best hand, or a nice draw. Of course it was possible that I was drawing dead or drwaing very thin, but still I called.
UTG had QJ, no club. The A of club fell on the river and he was eliminated.
Today I don´t like my call anymore. I think I should have folded. Eliminating this player shouldn´t have been that important to me, and the truth is, that this was one of the most important reason, why I called.
Comments
M.A.
Don't quite understand this one. Did you in fact have Jc 8c ? If you did, I think this is an easy call. With a two-way hand it's almost impossible to be drawing dead against one opponent.
UTG should have raised or folded, probably raised, a call is horrible.
Andy.
You had the chips to call without killing your self calling a big stack here would have been a mistake but your opponent is in trouble stack wise and on the desperate side so your call was a good one.
Here (short handed at the final table) we are playing stacks and men as much or more than the cards.
Down to five players. At last this tourney is played the way, in the USA every touney is played. Stealing the blinds is now common. One or two rounds, nobody defends his blind. I think, I was the last player, whose raise was called by a nice chinese guy (NCG). I had A4o that time, raised, was called from NCG on the button and checked folded after a flop with 3 diamonds fell.
This time, this chines guy raises my blind. Blinds are now 10k and 20k. I got a little mor than 200k, NCG had ~180k.
I have KQo in the BB. I thought a little and decided, that I wanna take the chance. (And did I want my chips back?) I hoped to
a) catch a nice flop b) be able to make a play on him c) check fold on a dangerous flop (I still had good chips in front of me)
It even was possile that I had the best hand, because he might have raised with someting like KJ or KT.
The flop comes T32 rainbow. , I would have prefered KKK, butI liked this flop too, since I thought I had good chances to pick up this pot if NCG didn´t have AT or worse for me KT. Of course he wouldn´t lay down JJ or better, but if he really had a hand it would be OK with me.
I put in my chips pretty confident and get called in 1/100 of a second. Oops, AA or TT? No, he had A3!!!!!
I hit a K on the river, but it was too late, since an A fell on the turn. The next hand limits move up and I´m eliminated in the SB.
What do you think of my play?
I liked it yesterday pretty much and was only angry that brainless NCG (or better: Not so nice chinese guy :-) )called. How could he call with a pair of 3s?
Today i don´t like my play anymore. I know this player well, he playes PL and NL just the way he playes limit. I made lots of money from him in PL O, since he even playes PL O the way he playes limit HE (That´s true! He will call any raise in PL O with JJ73, I swear). He just plays his hand, doesn´t think about the other players hand, so I should have folded preflop. I MUST NOT MAKE PLAYS WITH POOR OPPONENTS, I MUST NOT MAKE PLAYS WITH POOR OPPONENTS, ...
I hoped, I learned something from yesterday.
Comments
M.A.
First question, what is NCG's position ? This makes a big difference. If he is UTG he is much less likely to be stealing than if he is on the button or in the SB. For example, if he is in the SB then I probably re-raise him straight off.
On the flop, his call with a pair of 3s is not as bad as you are making out I think. It is certainly not "how could he call with that ?". From his POV there is every chance you have two overcards or have missed the flop in some other way.
I don't like to flat-call pre-flop in this spot. If he has made a pot-size raise then that should be 50K to you. You have 180K. Unless you're really confident that you can outplay him on the flop (ie get paid off when you hit, get away from it when he hits or steal it when you both miss) then raise if you think you've got him beat, fold if you don't.
Interesting hands, thanks for posting.
Andy.
2 mistakes - mixing it up with an almost equal stack with a marginal hand. AND that was NOT a good flop for you - all you have is over cards he could have a whole range of hands to have you beat since he raised pre flop.
I really hate KQ in this position heads up playing to a raise. KQ is dominated by AK AQ AA KK QQ - all raising hands. KQ is OK in limit ring games but in a tournament late I am not ever gonna go broke with it specially since I missed the flop completely.
I'm sure that this question has been asked about a million times before, but what's the best book out there for no limit hold em? I have Super/System. What else should I add to my collection?
Thanks in advance for any responses
I'm sure that this question has been asked about a million times before, but what's the best book out there for no limit hold em? I have Super/System. What else should I add to my collection?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
first you must understand the 2+2 concepts of poker to have a chance. the get Bob Ciaffone's books.
Ciaffone's book is definitely the best one.
Note for Mr Zee: Don't you think that you could write a great one?
yea and im still waiting for the 2 million dollar advance.
i'll throw in $15.
scott
Scott:
That will be $29.95.
What's the name of Ciaffone's book?
Thanks
These "egg heads" don't like it (probably cuz they didn't publish it) but TJ Cloutier's "Championship NL PL HE" with Tom McEvoy is a real winner in my book. It is in plain english and a good insight into a great tourmanent player. I have reread it several times and I know it has helped my game even my limit game was strengthened by the concepts. It is not a stepford version of poker just some good down home advice.
Now a lot of people here will try to belittle it. They will say he doesn't play the way he writes or he didn't write it (I have played several hours with TJ and watched him play several hours more, trust me he practices what he preaches. Do your self a favor go buy it and I will refund your money if it doesn't help your game.
Just kidding about the refund.
:-)
worried huh Rounder.that maybe you might get so many requests for refunds that it may break the bank. you gotta watch everything you say here or one step over the line and a thousand feet come trampoling down on you.
Got thet right Zman.
I have T.J.´s book and it is a very good one. But T.J.plays against the very best poker players in the world, so you always have to think about how your opponent plays. And T.J. is pointing that out very clearly.
In the 1999 edition of my Gambling Theory book I gave this text a good but not great review. I do think that the book by Ciaffone and Reuben is much better.
and i also think that zee's imminent eminence will leave ciaffone-reuben far behind.
i mean, if i have to, i'll pay the full 30 bucks. so what is z waiting for? right here we have written invitations!
just so you know, mason, i get zee's book of cool stories absolutely free. he promised. just ask him if you don't believe me.
scott
yes Mason when i do my book of cool stories scott does get a free copy. it doesnt matter though as his buddies will just steal it away when he is stuffing his face with pizza and he might never get to read it. please send me my big advance so i can start on it.
I haven´t read Reuben, but i will.
I've played in almost every major tournament series (In Nevada, LA and Arizona) over the last 2 years and can say with authority the very best and very worst players are there.
TJ's book is appropiate for all tournaments no matter what quality of player is playing.
That´s my point. It´s a good usefull book as long as you can use your own knowledgement about who your up against.
In tournaments, I see players whom I respect raising from early position with hands I wouldn't raise with.
Here is an example: an expert player raises with A7s from first position with a medium stack at a full table after rebuys have ended in a limit holdem tourney.
Now, I can understand raising if one is short-stacked and will have to go all-in on the next hand. And I can also understand raising if the big blind is prone to surrender and the other players have tightened up because they put too much weight on survival. But I've seen such a raise even when one or more players to the right was almost certain to call.
Am I missing something? Should I loosen up my raising requirements from early position late in a tourney?
(Incidentally, I've seen the same with hands like KJo and K9s. And I've seen it too often to be comfortable saying it was an image move.)
Roger
Unc,
"Expert" players will steal from early position since they are realy people expect them to have a monster.
Any old average player can try steal blinds from the button or cut off but it takes someone with steal balls to do it from early position.
Also A7s - not a bad hand to do it with.
You are right these are not raising hands but n the hands of the right guy they become profitable.
One possibility, they are not as expert as you are giving them credit for.
Another possibility. If they are highly certain that no one will call (or raise) behind them without a group 1 hand, and that the big blind will call with anything, then they are getting their money in with the best of it against a loose player in the blind.
However, this play will require a pretty specific set of circumstances to be correct. It is not often that you're playing with a blind who'll call anything (or fold too much, which means you can do this as a steal), and also at a table full of other players who will fold hands like AJ and 88 to your raise here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I see this hand lose often, especially against a raiser with a small pocket pair. My question is this: Is it a correct play to go all-in against a raiser not knowing much about your opposition?
This is really a judgement call depending mainly on your opponent and your stack size. The looser your opponent, and the lower his raising standards, the more correct an all-in re-raise will be. If your opponent tends to limp with AA or KK, the only hands you really fear, then that also makes a re-raise more correct.
Your stack size is a major consideration as well. Basically, the smaller your stack, the more correct it is to "go for it". If both you and your opponent have very large stacks (and by very large I mean that you already have enough to be comfortable at the final table, at least 10% of the chips in play) then a fold might be more judicious. You don't want to get into a big confrontation at this point.
In general a re-raise is much better than a call. You may induce a smaller pair to fold, which is very much what you want. As ever there are exceptions, one is the case where your opponent only has a few more chips after his raise, but you have enough to cover comfortably. If you raise, he will just call correctly. If you wait until the flop or any suitable point during the hand to put his last chips in, he might make an incorrect fold (or even an incorrect call). Give him a chance to make a mistake.
Hope this helps, comments welcome.
Andy.
NO - AK is a raising hand not so much a calling hand - and if you don't hit the flop you ought to get out of a hand in a NL tournament. What are you gonna do put all your chips in on a draw. No way.
Of course later on short handed at the final table things change a lot.
Rounder,
I think we'll have to disagree on this one. I do not believe that the answer is a categoric NO at all. If you have good reason to believe that your opponent does not have AA or KK then you should go for a re-raise.
Who's got the drawing hand when he has AQ ?
Andy.
Sure it is dependent on the other player but that is why I make a big bet with slick - far as reraising again it is player dependent but I just can't see putting all my chips in when I am a 11/10 dog to 22.
I will not go broke with this hand before the flop and that is certain.
OK Rounder. You say AK is a raising hand? Is it also a raising hand against a raise and a reraise before you act?
In limit maybe depending on the quality of the other players. IN NL - if 2 good players have raised and reraised I won't even call with slick - it's in the muck. It is a great drawing hand but in the final analysis it is still a drawing hand and I am not going broke with it.
Here is a hand which came up last night just after we were discussing AK. PL Hold-Em, just after the buy-ins have finished, blinds 100-100 on the button, I am chip leader at the table with 3500. I pick up AcKs in second position and raise the pot. 3 callers - the table has been loose all night. I have a pretty tight image but that's not enough to stop people calling with strange hands, especially when there is a caller or two in front of them.
Flop Kd Jd Th. I am first to act. I have enough to cover everyone else, the biggest stack still in the hand is 1300, and there is 1800 in the pot. I know it depends :-), but what would you tend to do depending on the various factors and why ?
I will post the results and my own thinking, such as it was :-(, later on.
Thanks,
Andy.
Andy knowing the crowd you are probably playing with gives the word maniac a "whole new meaning" :-) - I'd raise the pot here knowing the guy with the Ad rag off suit and/or a 9 will make bad calls you will also get marginally bad calls from open ended straights and 4 flushes. But I'd bet the pot here and hope for the best.
Hope you won the whole thing.
Andy,
Since, you came in with a raise, I would bet on the flop to try to pick it up. But, I would only bet $400. I would underbet the pot. You want to make it look like you're trapping. I think $400 will look suspicious with this potentially dangerous flop. If you get re-raised drop it. If you get called put on the brakes and be careful on the turn. If you do not think the turn card helped your opponent bet enough on the turn to put your opponent to the test.
I have never played in the UK yet, but of what I heard the players might be almost as bad as in vienna. So I would bet out pot and hope that everybody folds. If someone calls, I´m maybe behind but still have outs (at least the Q, maybe a K or A, but who knows). But (at least in vienna) chances are that I´m called by a way worse hand.
The other possibility would be to check fold after heavy action. I wouldn´t like a check call here.
But you are the chipleader, and even when you loose this pot, you got a nice stack. So bet out and pray.
Regards
M.A.
I'm glad a couple of you said bet and hope for the best because that's exactly what I did. I figured there were too many chips out there to just let go and a check-call is pretty horrible. Unfortunately I got a caller who turned over AQ - of diamonds ! Doh !! Still, it didn't knock me out - I managed to do that myself a little later with 32 :-).
The suggestion to underbet the pot is very interesting and one I had not considered at all. Normally I just bet the pot so people can't read me but maybe it's about time I had the confidence to try to outplay people occasionally. On the downside someone with a Q or a flush draw might call cheaply and give me a problem on the turn (even bluff on the turn if the right card falls) but it's worth considering.
Thanks,
Andy.
Andy I think it is valid to vary your bets to keep the better players off balance the bad players won't notice what you are doing but I like to vary my betting. It works for me.
What Andy didnt say was..... when he went out with 32o he had flopped K32....
How do I know this??
I was the mug who called with 34 and outdrew him :P
Cheers,
Keith
Cheers Keith,
Always nice to be able to put a name to a face. You had the flush draw + pair on the flop of course so I would have called like a shot with your hand :-).
Andy.
Andy,
You said,"On the downside someone with a Q or a flush draw might call cheaply and give me a problem on the turn (even bluff on the turn if the right card falls) but it's worth considering."
Because of your position the flop was very dangerous for you to continue That's why I suggested doing something sneaky. When three people call a raise from someone in early position it means pairs and big overcards. I suggested the underbet because it would get rid of the weaker one pairs and you might be able to pick up the pot at good odds.
I'll assume you bet the size of the pot. Now, the guy with the ace-queen of diamonds is going to move-in because he's getting 2 to 1 which is good enough for the flush draw. If he had the flush draw or the ace-queen he was calling anyway no matter what you bet on the flop.
A few other things to consider. Let's say you got only one caller. If the flush didn't make it there on the turn, your opponent would be reluctant to call a bet if he didn't make a flush and would probably fold, unless of course he had the straight (but now you could get away from the hand). But, consider what would happen if he had just the ace-queen without diamonds and was afraid of the flush. The flush may scare him and he may fold. Or you may get lucky and a queen will fall on the turn.
I played in a Labor Day tournament at one of the Indian casinos near Albuquerque, and the following situation came up. We were playing a 1/2 hold'em, 1/2 omaha format. We had just changed to omaha, and the blinds moved to 200/500 from 100/200. The button called 200, and when told that the call had to be 500, he pulled back his 200 and mucked his hand. The BB objected, saying that the 200 should remain in the pot. The tournament director was called over, and he ruled that the button had to complete the call to 500, even though his hand was already in the muck. Most of the players thought this was excessive -- only the 200 should have gone in. Comments??
Had anyone already acted behind him?
If no, then the most common ruling I see is that he can take his money back.
If yes, then I see it go both ways. Some say he can forfeit what he put up without putting more in. Others say that his placement of chips in the pot is the equivalent of saying "call", and that he must put up a full bet.
As always, it depends, upon the rules at that casino. BTW, just because that floorman said those were the rules doesn't mean that those really are the rules at that club. Most places are notorious for giving inconsistent rulings that vary from one floorman to another. Heck, I've seen the same floorman make inconsistent rulings on the same shift.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The small blind may have folded. Several of us almost immediately jumped on the button's call of 200, saying a call was now 500. And the tournament director made the ruling, so I have more confidence that he would be consistent, even though this one seemed "way harsh." Thanks.
So, I'm playing in the Monday night limit HE tourney at Foxwoods last night. We've just started the final table 10-handed, 9 places being paid. There's a discussion about paying $5 each to give to 10th place. I've come to the discussion late, but don't want to do it. I point out that this will give 10th place more money (albeit only by a buck) than 9th place. I say let's give 10th place some money, but take it out of 1st or 1st+2nd. Finally, after some arguing, 7 of the players put up $5 each, and if any of the other 3 of us come in 10th, we get nothing (while they presumably get their $5 back, it was never stated).
Crotchety guy sitting to my right starts belittling the 3 of us who didn't contribute. Starts moaning about how they always do it this way every Monday night, and every other night. I point out that I've never seen this done before, but am usually only there on Tuesday. Well, that's the one (and only) night he doesn't play the tourney. He starts into how good he is, how he makes the final tables all the time, and that he'll make sure WE don't get the 10th place save next time when we're short-stacked. He states he's won these little tourneys 297 times. I ask him, and he says he plays 6 a week, every week, for 5 years. I quickly estimate that he must therefore win more often than once per week, on average, to make these figures jive.
He starts into me about see how fast I go broke playing 97o. He seems to have forgotten that when I showed down 97o it was my unraised big blind, and I flopped a full house. He then mentions 93o. I fail to mention that he's confusing me with the guy who had been sitting next to me at the last table.
Anyway, this self-styled great player makes the following plays. What do you think?
9-handed. All fold to SSGP in cut-off seat. He limps, leaving him with 3 more bets in his stack. SB calls, BB checks. Flop is Q95. Check, check, bet by SSGP. SB raises all-in, BB folds, SSGP calls. SSGP wins with QTo vs. T9o.
7-handed. All fold to SSGP on button, who limps, leaving himself with 1.2 bets in his stack. SB folds, BB checks. Flop is J82. BB bets, SSGP raises all-in and is called. BB has J4, SSGP goes broke with A8o.
I don't know about you, but I think that those were just awful plays preflop in both cases.
Given this guys stack size, is there ANY hand that you would limp with preflop, against any set of remaining opponents in the 2 or 3 seats behind you? I can only think of 1 scenario, and I'm not 100% sure that a limp is correct there either.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In a small tournie I regularly play in, they always ask if the last 2 out before the final can have a small % of 1st place as consolation.
I always say no.
It seems I am alone in this. But, the reason I do it is that this period is my most profitable time for ante stealing. If they have guarenteed a small payout.. they are prepared to make a stand with some very questionable holdings.
Example....
In the biggest tournie of the year... I caved in and agreed to payout the last 2 before the final. 2 minutes later... I raised with AK and got reraised by someone holding J9. Of course the 9 appeared on the river.. and I ended up finishing 7th. The woman who called said.. I wouldnt have played.. but I am guarenteed £200 now.. so I am happy with that.
From then on, I always just say no.
It has made me pretty unpopular with some players..
I always feel a deal should be a personal decision.. and respect a player whether they say yes or no.
Unfortunately... they dont all feel this way.
Cheers,
Keith
Yes, you're right, of course. However, since I play with these guys all the time, I've decided to give up a little bit of EV those times when a deal would not be in my interest in order to keep them happy and coming back for more. Also, some of these guys will make some amazingly bad deals in my favor on occasion.
For example, one guy was pushing for a 6-way split one night. The second chip leader said no (he'd consider other deals, but not that one). I'm sitting there quietly with the shortest stack. A few hands later, the guy wanting the split has beaten the second stack twice in a row and eliminated him. Deal-maker is now the biggest stack. He says "Let's chop it 5 ways now that he's gone". I fail to decline his offer, and get a deal that's worth about 3-4 times the value of my stack. There is little doubt that if I had previously turned down the 10th place save when he finished 10th, he would not have made this deal.
Since the 10th place save is relatively small, and could never cost me that much EV, I always let it go through. I think I've come out ahead by doing so, but if not, I haven't lost much. And, like I said, I want these guys to go home feeling good about the game, so they want to come back next week. We have guys who drive in from as far as 2 hours away just for this tourney on Tuesday nights because they like it so much.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You guys are very lucky. I guess it's because Foxwoods is in the middle of nowhere.
i sent him all the way from montana to take you off in the tournaments. but it turns out he lost all the money i gave him on keno. seems like a recurring bad dream.
Don't sweat it greg, i play in the saturday tournies and i tell ya its a treat. there are so many experts on how to play hands they should have a publisher waiting to pick up these superstars. although there are many players who are very good, i think the split is 25-75 vs. poor players who can easily be thrown off hands and out played.
a quick question for you on the no limit format. i know they offer unlimited rebuys for the first three levels. how many times would you consider rebuying for? and also at what level do you begin to change gears and take advantage of their play after the rebuy period is over?
thanks
HAWKIN wrote: > a quick question for you on the no limit format. i > know they offer unlimited rebuys for the first three > levels. how many times would you consider rebuying > for? and also at what level do you begin to change > gears and take advantage of their play after the > rebuy period is over?
I would rebuy every time I qualified, no matter what that number was, unless my losses due to bad beats had gotten so extreme that I was on tilt and no longer playing a winning game.
The rebuys are cheaper than the buyin, so there is no reason not to take them. For me, typically, as soon as anyone has doubled up by winning or rebuying, I take the rebuy (so I can win their entire stack the next hand). Then, when it comes to the add-on, I always take a double, even when I have as many as T2000 in chips (addons are T200 for $20, may take 1 or 2 of these).
Fortunately, I don't go broke often during the rebuy period, so I often end up paying $95 to play ($35 entry, 1 rebuy, 2 addons). The most I've ever paid is $175, which I've done twice. One of those times I finished short of the money, the other time I won the whole thing.
Someday here I'm going to go through my records since late 1998 when I moved here, and figure out my averages for this Tuesday night event. BTW, entries are up, having been 59 players last night and the week before. They will probably continue high until the WPF starts in October. I'm not sure if they'll stay high after that or not. Most of these guys don't play the WPF events, so it probably won't have that big of an impact, except that for 3 weeks there will be no regular Tuesday night event, which may allow some of them to find other hobbies for that night.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What! no congrats to Craig for winning Tues night? ;-)
I didn't know he won. I shook his hand and wished him luck when they were 4-handed.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
T.J. Cloutier says in his no limit book that one shouldn't play in any tournament that doesn't give you at least 50 times your original buy-in for first place. I was just wondering if most tournaments in other areas pay out this well for first, because the hold em tourney in mine only pays about 20 times.
Actually, where I play most, first price pays about 65 to 70 times the original buy in almost all tourneys for 1st place.
It´s a result of lots of players playing extremly loose and therefor have to rebuy very often.
Regards
M.A.
where do you play?
Mostly in vienna, Concord Card Casino and Poker World.
Regards
M.A.
For a freeze-out tournament to pay 50 times the buy-in there would generally have to be at least 120 runners which would make it pretty tough to win. I think the skill of your opponents (as a population) is much more of a factor.
TJ's book isn't really aimed at small buy-in tournaments. If this is what you are playing, it can actually be better to play in smaller tournaments because you will place more often and it is less of a strain on your bankroll.
As an aside, this is an example of a piece of advice in a book which doesn't really say very much out of context, you need the reasoning behind it for it to help you (no disrespect to TJ intended).
Andy.
I don't remember that comment from TJ but 50 times is quite a bit - You need 100 players and a 40% 1st place winners share and add on to get there. Otherwise 125 buyins and a 40% winners share gets you 50 times I guess it is a reasonable standard to go with.
With rebuys the calculation changes of course.
Off the top of my head it might well have been in "Championship Stud".
Andy.
it was in no limit holdem
At an 8-player table in a limit holdem tourney just after rebuys have ended, I have K-J off one to the right of the button. Two players limp in and I limp,too. The button and the blinds call. Six players see the flop, quite an unusual number for this table.
The flop is J-7-3, two hearts. I have top pair with a king kicker. I don't have a heart.
The big blind bets, one limper calls, I raise, the big blind re-raises, everyone else folds except me. I'm heads-up with the big blind. We both have big stacks.
The turn is an offsuit 4. He bets, I call.
The river is an offsuit 2. He bets, I call. He wins with J-7 for two pair.
The big blind was a stranger who had been playing a seemingly solid game earlier in the tourney.
How should I have played this hand?
Unc
I think, there is nothing, you should have done differently. You played OK, this things just happen.
Regards
M.A.
Personally if I can't raise with a hand I don't play it in this stage of a tournament - I probably would have raised or folded this hand with 2 limpers ahead of me I probably fold it if checked to me I am raising.
The BB is stil playing a "solid game" you let him in for free and he out flopped you - my strategy is if you can't raise or take a reraise with your hand fold it.
It was my fourth tourny in 4 weeks. I finished 21 during the first. 3rd during the second. 7th during the third. During my 4th tourny we were down to the last 11 players. One more and its final table down. Here was my situation. The chip leader is at my table. He was playing almost every hand. I have a small stack but about even with most at the table. The player on my right lost with AA twice in a row! He had less chips then I did and was very very steaming. He said out loud that he was raising so he could go home because he was tired of the crap! Every one before him folded. He raised I look down at QJoff. A piece of crap. I think for a moment realize that I don't have many chips left and re-raise with the idea that the raiser is fully tilted and more then likely has a lesser hand. I want him heads up. Everyone on my left folds including the leader. The raiser has 97off and wins by flopping 9s and 7s. When I raised I put him all in. The loss crippled me and I was blinded off on the next hand. I finished 11th one off the money. I also thought like this. I had one more hand after this then the blinds were coming and I would be out if I didn't pick up a miracle pot. Was this right? I also need a message sent to someone I know in AC. His name is Phil Friedman also known as Flipper. If anyone here reading this knows him please get his phone number and mailing address from him and tell him that I want to pay him back what I owe.
I think the play was correct, seeing as you too were short-stacked. You were winning pre-flop after all.
Just one word of warning, I have seen people giving every impression of being on tilt, firing in their chips as though they want to leave and then turning over a real hand, Aces even. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
Andy.
Considering your chip position and the circumstances you did OK with the tiltmaster pre flop.
Guess he wasn't kidding about wanting to get out of there to bad you couldn't accomidate him.
I am considering entering the $500 level tournaments (HE, NLHE, O8) and satellites at either the World Poker Championships at Foxwoods or at the U.S. Poker Championships at the Taj. I have never been to either poker room and this will be my first tournament play at this entry level. Any suggestions as to which might be the better tournament? Comments on tournament management, competition, size of the payouts, accomadations, side game action (10-20 to 20-40) are welcome.
I've never been to the Taj, so cannot compare.
Foxwoods runs their tourneys very well, and you always get lots of play for your money.
This will be the first year in which the FW and Taj tourneys do not run simultaneously. In past years I had heard that the fields at FW were larger and had more dead money, while the buyins at FW were smaller. It was these smaller buyins that supposedly motivated many of the "name" players to go to Taj instead. This year I expect the FW tourneys to be very good and large, but there might be a lot more good players in the field as well.
Compared to SoCal, where I used to live, the fields at FW are much softer, with a lot more weak players. Even those who are decent players are often weak when it comes to tourney strategy. They don't know how to play when they are short-stacked, or when their opponent is. And they often have no clue what adjustments to your regular strategy you should make once you get in or near the money.
Accommodations at FW are supposed to be very nice, and are reasonable if you get the tourney rate. Go to Two Trees. It's less convenient to the poker room, and has no room service, but the rooms are said to be nicer, and they're definitely cheaper.
The side action is always very good during tourneys here. Whether it's better than Taj, I have no idea. Usually HE from 2-4 up to 50-100, with 10-20, 20-40, and 30-60 going most all the time. Stud at the same levels, plus much higher. Stud hi-lo at 15-30, 20-40, or 30-60. And the biggest games in the room usually being mixed, like SHE, HOE, etc.
Also, at FW now, when you win, the money is neither reported to the IRS, nor is anything withheld. Not that you don't owe taxes, but at least you can subtract your buyin before reporting it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I prefer the Taj. Many satelites; lots to do in AC vs. Foxwoods. The Taj is big and handles Tournaments quite well. Lots of places to stay. Other poker rooms within minutes in case you crap out early. Transportation is easy. Lots of Mac machines. Good, cheap food as well as good expensive food.
Are long-term value plays as important in tournaments as they are in ring-game play?
There are posters here with lots more tournament experience than me, but in my opinion, the notion of long-term has no value in tournaments. The decisions in a tournament are based on the current situation only.
JohnnyD
This hand is the famous "first million dollar pot" from the '87 WSOP btwn Johnny Chan and Bob Ciaffone.
The Coach has written about this in several of his books(two different versions of this hand, AAMOF.. :) ), so I'll take the most likely version and round the numbers a bit.
Three-handed, blinds 10-20K, 2K ante. Coach in the BB w/~665K, Chan on button w/~530K, SB has ~250K. Chan limps, SB calls, Coach raises 85K w/A4d, Chan *calls*, SB folds.
Flop comes KcJh4c. Coach bets 185K, Chan immediately goes all-in for another 240K. Coach thinks a bit, then calls for reasons he has written about extensively(and I agree with), and loses to Chan's KQo(dunno if the Q was a C). Coach later says he definitely shoulda checked the flop, as it probably hit a hand that woulda called the pre-flop raise(also agreed).
However, if Coach was gonna bet(and his bet certainly committed his whole stack), why not just go all-in immediately? A friend of mine says Chan should probably fold here, as he's the best player of the three and will likely have better spots on down the road.
My guess is that Chan knew Coach well enough that he calls a 'tap' bet, albeit somewhat reluctantly.
Any thoughts or is this one too obvious?
Don't get me wrong; Ciaffone definitely should've checked the flop, and I'm positive Chan would've called an all-in bet, based on experience playing w/Ciaffone.
However, suppose this hand played out the same way and the BB was unknown to Chan(but respected by him as 'reasonable' player), and Chan had no tell on him.
Now, Chan has a real problem calling an all-in bet on the flop. The SB has ~half the chips he does(don't want to pull a Bonetti '93) and the BB's likely hands are AK, set of 4s or Js, KJ, KQ(w/the Qc) or AQ-J-T of clubs. NOTE: KQo is a small dog to these last three(albeit microscopically to AJc & ATc) and even A9c wins ~45% of the time. On the other hand, the 236K pot(almost 15% of the chips in play), is definitely worth trying to steal by the BB.
Man, KQ can leave you in a tough spot, facing a big flop bet from a pre-flop raiser. Seems like the best you can usually hope for is to be about a 1.25-1 favorite over a big draw....
I like your all-in play here, but still figure JC for a call given the circumstances. Ciaffone had been playing pretty aggressively, and by his own account, Chan had implored others to "play back at him." I think he would take matters into his own hands here and makes a reluctant call- playing to win rather than for 2nd place money.
It is more likely that Ciaffone has club draw or pair/combo draw than it is that he has a set or top-two.
Bob is just not the kind of player that overbets the pot and it would have screamed "BIG DRAW"
Exactly, but he has a lot tougher call against a player he doesn't know(and remember, AQ-J&T of clubs are tiny favorites over Chan's KQo), although in '89 he called Noel Furlong w/QQ when Furlong went all in on a K-x-x flop after raising pre-flop with 44(Furlong had also been very aggressive; know your player....).
Guess that's why he's who he is.
My whole point is that KQ's not a hand you usually want much action with, as TJ & Brent Carter learned in '98 & '95. :)
I will appreciate feedback on the following play in the BARGE2000 no-limit hold'em tournament.
The blinds are $3,000 and $1500 and 21 players left with 19 getting paid.
I am in the LB with approximately 10K in chips. It is folded around to me and I have AA. I decide to slowplay and try to trap the BB, so I only complete the bet. BB checks.
Flop comes with three clubs. I do not believe BB has two clubs (I do not have the Ace of Clubs), so am still in the traping mood...I check. BB goes all-in (his stack is around 20K). I call. I turn over my AA, he turns over two small cards with one being a club. Turn is a red small card, River is the 7 clubs. I am gone.
First, should I have raised to start and been satisfied with the blinds? (At that time, I felt I needed to double up to get to the final table).
Second, should I have raised after the 3 club flop?
Third, should I have folded after he made his all-in move?
I will appreicate your thoughts on this play.
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
Trapping pre-flop is questionable. Trapping on the flop is a very bad idea. Maybe he doesn't have two clubs but if he has one you _have_ to make him pay to draw.
I would have bet the flop. In the event though I don't think you should fold when he bets.
What to do pre-flop depends on all the usual things. If he has a half-decent hand, if he is a loose or aggressive player and if you have been stealing enough recently, a raise is in many ways the most deceptive play you can make.
Andy.
Move all in BTF. You don't have enough chips to try and trap. There is 4500 in the pot and you have 10K which represents about half your chips. Why mess around?
Bruce
Tom,
I always try to set up a trap with a smallish raise BTF never just calling in NL. I also am in a betting mood on this flop but not all my chips.
In your situation mis-playing the AA preflop and on the flop I just quietly fold to his all in bet. You missed the boat and instead of being there with 14,500 you are on you way home.
Don't worry about 19th place, it's not worth much. You needed to double up. Limping in was the correct play. You should have moved the rest of your chips in on the flop since you are first to act. This will at least make your opponent guess. Usually, when you limp in they will think that you have nothing or a big hand, so they know that they may be up against the nuts. Note that, it appears that from the way your opponent played his hand, he bet to put you to the test. I think if you had been the first to bet on the flop there may have been a chance that he would fold. Which would still be fine.
Thanks for the response to my post on my play of AA.
I think I will still stand by my initial play. AA is roughly 85% favorite in heads up and I was hoping he would see me as week and raise and then I could come in over the top. This play worked in BARGE last year where I cold called in a similiar situation and the LB made a pot size raise and I came over the top all-in. He had 77 and my Aces held up. I also really thought I needed to take a chance with them as I was well below the average stack and I needed to double up.
After the flop, however, I definitely made a mistake with my check, even though it did get him to make a steal attempt (he told me later that was what he was doing). I should have gone all-in at that point and would have then picked up the blinds.
After he went all-in I felt I was still favored, but the river got me.
Again, thanks for your input.
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
I think in tournaments it comes down to one big factor. You can play great, and be sitting well. But it comes down to when you have a big hand. Winner or not...
To go all the way it seems like you just have to go for it. You either make it or you don't. Of course, in the long run, the better players will "make it" more then weaker players.
But that just seems to be the bottem line in whether you lose or make money playing tournaments.
-MadMan
Apologies up front for the length of this post.
As an internet poker tournament could legitimately go under both the “Internet Poker” and “Tournaments” forums, I’ll post this report in both and let the powers that be decide whether they wish to delete either. I apologize for not taking detailed notes; I assumed that other, more frequent posters/lurkers may have played and would be sending their own reports.
Saturday and Sunday, September 9 and 10, 2000, PokerSpot attempted to conduct several free hold ‘em tournaments at its www.pokerspot.com web site. Three tournaments were scheduled, one Saturday at 2:00 p.m. central time, one Saturday evening at 8:00 central time, and the final tournament Sunday evening at 7:00 p.m. central time.
The key word in the above paragraph is “attempted.”
The first tournament was held Saturday afternoon at 2:00 central. This was a rescheduled tournament from the prior Saturday, which was postponed due to software problems.
I don’t recall how many people played in the Saturday tournament; I’d guess around 90 or so showed up.
Problems were evident from the outset. Registrants were randomly assigned tables, however, PokerSpot’s software apparently was ill-equipped to deal with the situation of simultaneous registration. A player could see his or her name at the table, however, cards were delivered face down to those players. Whether said player had one of the blinds or was in turn to act, his hand was folded immediately, before the on-screen timer “counted down” from 20 seconds. I fell into the “can’t play” category. At the table I was assigned to, only two players could actually see their cards and play; for quite some time those two players traded pots and accumulated the blinds of the remaining eight players. One interesting note is that when a player eventually was “all in,” his hand was not folded immediately
For whatever reason, on the respective lists of players at each table, if a player’s “hometown” appeared beside his name he was able to play in the tournament; if only your name appeared, the “instant fold” default went into effect.
About two hours into the tournament, PokerSpot’s management decided to cancel the tournament with a promise to reschedule the tournament for 3:00 p.m. central time Sunday, September 10. The 8:00 p.m. tournament was also canceled to give the engineers time to fix the bugs.
The Sunday 2:00 tournament was conducted nearly flawlessly. 80 players were allowed to play; more signed up but they limited it to eight tables. The opening dozen or so hands started at $10-$20 (blinds of $5 and $10); after that it quickly moved to no-limit. Blinds increased periodically (I believe every 20 minutes) to $10-$20, $15-$30, $25-50, $50-100, $100-200, $150-300 I’m certain the blinds increased after this, but due to a problem explained below I do not know how high the blinds got at the tournament’s end. Each player was given $800 in tournament chips. As players were eliminated, tables were broken up and survivors were automatically assigned to other tables. The “write text” interface worked solidly, and when a player was eliminated he was able to see exactly what place he finished in, although it only worked for your respective table; that is, when players were eliminated from other tables you could not tell what place they finished in.
PokerSpot paid 8 players in this freeroll tournament, with a prize structure of $200, $100, $50, and five $30 prizes. I never accumulated more than $1,700 in chips and finished 21st out of 80 players.
One minor problem with this tournament is that only 20 watchers were allowed at any given time; when a player was eliminated he was not allowed to “railbird” if there were 20 people already watching the table. After spending two hours playing in the tournament, I would liked to have been allowed to watch the final table. PokerSpot had a floorman present who was there to assist players and answer questions. (I found this a refreshing change of pace from Paradise Poker.) The floorman indicated that PokerSpot’s engineers would be working on this problem to allow more people to watch a final table.
Unfortunately, the evening tournament did not run as smooth as the afternoon tournament. The initial stages went smoothly; each player in this tournament was given $600 in chips; blinds and structure proceeded similarly to the afternoon tourney. Unfortunately, as players were eliminated the survivors remained at their respective tables; tables did not break up. Towards the later stages of the tournament many tables had only two players remaining. (I don’t know whether the following is the result of a programming flaw or a timing delay, but several times when a player was eliminated, if you checked the lounge and looked at the list of remaining players the table lists would indicate there were more than that number of players remaining. As an example I noticed that “Player X” finished in 18th place, but when I checked the table logs in the lounge I found there were still 22 players active.)
After a couple hours of playing, the floorman announced that they were suspending the tournament due to the table “non-breakup” and would reschedule for tonight, Monday, September 11, at 7:00 eastern, allowing only those players who played in Sunday evening’s tournament. I finished 11th out of 100, however, that result is tainted because people may have dropped out immediately when they announced the tournament suspension; the floorman announced the suspension “table-by-table” as opposed to making a blanket announcement. I believe that others will be allowed to play if not everyone from Sunday’s tournament shows up, but that’s just a gut feeling with no evidence to support that either way.
Assuming the problems are fixed, PokerSpot claims that they will run $300 prize freeroll tournaments all this week, with fee tournaments beginning once all the bugs are fixed.
In short, the Sunday afternoon tournament was terrific fun, although it did not make up for the wasted time in the other tournaments. However, the tournaments were free and, of course, you get what you pay for. Assuming PokerSpot can solve its software problems I would enjoy risking small amounts of money now and again.
Comments welcome.
Thanks for the report. HGopefully PokerSpot will comment on its progress in fixing the problems.
Greetings all,
Thank you, Foldie Hawn, for the accurate report of our first attempts at tournaments. Let me offer an update on the status of our tournaments thus far. (Caution - this is long.)
Our engineers found the bug in Sunday night's tournament and have fixed it. I won't bore the group with the details but anyone who is interested in the technical details can email us at support@pokerspot.com.
We are holding free beta tournaments each day this week, and the schedule is posted on our web site (http://www.pokerspot.com/promotion2.html). The prize pool for each free beta tournament is $300 for the top 7 places. The format will vary from night to night, from limit to no limit.
Monday night's tournament went as well as Sunday afternoon's tournament, and we were able to host 100 players at that time. After the tournament, engineering increased the number of observers per table to 50 to allow more players to view the tournament, particularly the final table.
Tuesday afternoon's tournament started out poorly, when table 1 froze. Our engineers found they could fix the problem, so we stopped the tournament after 10 minutes and rescheduled it for 30 minutes later. The problem turned out to be the increased observers, so we set back to 20 for the tournament 30 minutes later. After the restart, this tournament also went very well.
There are several bugs that remain to be fixed, but that is to be expected due to the complexity of our software. As we discovered while creating the tournaments, there is a reason no one else has done this: it is hard!
The key feature in Pokerspot software which allows us to run true tournaments is our dynamic table assignment in which and tables are created and merged as needed in a tournament setting while at the same time the limits automatically increase at set intervals. This is much more complex than having static tables that can't combine and that players need to search through. But it is also more realistic, particularly for the tournaments.
Now to the Bugs: The bug that improperly showed a player's chips at the table has been fixed. The bug that allowed a player to overbet in certain no limit situations has been fixed. The bug that prevented more than 40 players at a time from playing has been fixed. The bug that brought the whole tournament to a screeching halt on Saturday has been fixed. The bug that prevented many players from logging in has been fixed.
The bug that causes a player to post the big blind twice in certain situations is being worked on. The bug that occasionally prevents a player from raising or calling immediately after a table has combined is being worked on. The text box that displays limits instead of blinds in no limit play is being worked on. The bug that incorrectly shows the number of players in the Lounge is being worked on.
No doubt there are other bugs that will put in an appearance before we have finished with our free beta tournaments, but we are gaining ground on them.
Some of the features we are implementing include a constant chips display, an increased number of observers, hand log requests, and smoother reconnections if booted off.
Once we have all the bugs worked out, we will begin holding buy in tournaments, which will lead up to our big $10,000 freeroll.
We're very excited about true online real money tournaments, and we certainly appreciate all the support players have given us as we work hard to provide a more enjoyable poker experience. We welcome your ideas and suggestions, and we hope to see you at the tables!
Regards,
Matt Winfrey VP, Pokerspot.com
hi, im going to start playing in a weekly NL holdem tournament (gila river in phoenix wednesday nights) and would appreciate any advice. ive played about 8 limit he tourneys and have done very well (i think it was mostly luck but who knows).
initially im not going to rebuy (available first hour i think), just a straight buy in and no add on.
would the no limit section of supersystem be a good guide, or some other book?
any tips for NL would be helpful too.
i guess my strategy right now is to either go all in preflop or limp in in late position trying to get in real cheap and hit the flop *hard* (and then i guess go all in).
brad
I've played in that tournament many times.
Your attitude about not rebuying or adding on is foolish - you probably won't make the break thinking that way - you will be playing to tight.
The players in that one usually have deep pockets and it is mostly luck to get at the RIGHT table in the beginning. I can remember one night I was at a table where most played good poker and we had a total of $4500 on the table some guy comes over from a busted table and has over $5000 and wasn't the chip leader there I think htere were 41 rebuys - I have say there and seen one guy rebuy 17 times -
During the rebuy period play is really lose so play tight and good hands but you will be called with big bets so if you get drawn out on you eigther go home or bebuy.
Having said that I usually did best when I didn't have to rebuy or add on.
I wouldn't rebuy if I had over T$4000 at the break if that is any guid for you I cansed many times and won it afew times but it is a hard tournament to score in - I have suspected for some time that some of the players are "playing together" but proving it is not easy.
I wish you success.
Hi !
I'm not an expert here but here's my insight:
Hope this will help...
Your tournament experience will surely help, especially if you did well as you stated.
The main difference between limit and no-limit is that you can put a lot of pressure on your opponents, especially if you are fortunate enough to build a big stack. You usually want to win it earlier than in limit where it's hard to discourage a lunatic from drawing at you.
Another difference are the draws. Don't fall for the drawing hands. In limit, you can look at your pot/implied odds and calculate if your call is good or no. In no-limit, your hole stack is in jeopardy at any time. If your opponents are smart enough, they will make you pay too much for a drawing hand. In the same way, you should always make sure that you make THEM pay when you bet for value.
Early in the tourney, play BIG cards. Be patient. Don't venture in those suited connectors from a middle or front position, especially if a lot of raising is going on. If you happen to be late and the pot is not raised, sure limp in with a playable hand and hope for a good flop. In No-Limit, flop to it or get out....
As for the books, I've read Championship Pot-limit/No-limit hold'em by TJ Coutier and just ordered Pot-limit/No-limit Poker by Bob Ciaffone.
Play IRC tourneys, they'll give you a better feel for no-limit and what are the many traps to avoid. And it's free. Plus some of the players are very good.
I hope this helped...
theprince00
Brad, first advice...if JohnnyD bets then fold.
I play in that tournament almost every week and have made the final table 5 times out of about 20. Early on, I play more conservative than many and try to make it to the break without a rebuy. But I'm prepared to rebuy if necessary. At the break there is also an opportunity to do an add-on. I always take the add-on. The initial entry is $55, but I plan for one $100 rebuy and one $100 addon, that $255. I believe that's about average.
You're not going to be very competitive if you plan on spending only the initial $55. But if that's all you want to risk, it's still good experience.
After the break there's no more rebuys or add-ons. Some of the players that were playing wild and agressive during the rebuy period will be more conservative when they know they can't get more chips.
I wouldn't use the approach of moving all my chips in every time I get a good hand. Just raise about triple or so of the big blind if you're first to enter the pot otherwise you'll be busted the first time you're up against somebody with a better hand or with lots of chips and they get lucky. Use some judgement. Bet in such a way that encourages what you want. Know if you want callers or if you just want to win what's in the pot.
JohnnyD
If JohnnyD is in the hand and the flop comes 955 - MUCK asap.
:-)
Johnny just couldn't resist that - hope you are doing well - I sure miss Phoenix - my hourly rate is 1/2 the S/W one and I have to drive 4 hours for a decent tournament.
Hope to be back soon.
MikeG
i figured ill be easy meat at first so ill just play for the experience the first 3 or 4 times (about 200$) , then evaluate what i should do. doing everything i can to make the final table is not my goal ... yet.
thanks for advice,
brad
Brad this is not a made up scenario - It has happened to me more than once.
1st hand you have AA someone in front of you pushes all in you of course call the bet. She spikes a straight with her 74s or 2 pair or 3 7's whatever.
Now what do you do go home??? Just a thought.
Good luck.
personally i would go to a ring game where im pretty sure i could win. (15/18 winning sessions in last month)
i basically view tournaments as crap shoots and try not to sink too much money into them.(maybe unlimited rebuy tournaments arent for me)
brad
I hate them - but when they are the only game in town!
My fav tournament is a freeze out NL HE. I don't care what the buy in is but 100-200 is a good number.
Just finished my first N/L Tournament, and would like to see the thoughts of the play on the hand I lost on. Here are the parameters-I am in the final two tables, with top 9 paid. Chip leaders at table have about 5k, i have just under 2K. I am on button, and dealt AQo. We are at the last hand before levels increase to $200-400 w/ $75 ante. Current level is 100-200, $50 ante. Two limpers early, all fold to a late middle position player, who bets 500. I notice he has roughly 2500 in chips. I raise all in. Here were my thoughts-1) I put him on A-xs, A-K, or low to middle pair. This leaves me in most cases as a favorite or small dog, with only a-k making me a huge dog. 2) With the money I have, I must play one of the next 12 hands. 3) With the two callers, there is $1650 in the pot. 4) If I play I must go all in. If you are experienced, I would like to know if a) my thought process was correct. b) what other things should I have considered. c) what other plays could have been used. As this was my first N/L, I am interested in the responses. I will post the hand and what he had teh responses.
You do need to make a play pretty soon, as these antes will eat you up, let alone the blinds (this is a really high ante relative to the blinds; usually the antes add up, at a full table, to about the amount of the big blind, not 2.5 times the big blind).
You're right, if you play AQ here, you should go all-in. 500 is a quarter of your stack, and it's too much for a call if you're going to fold if you don't hit the flop. One exception might be if you expect everyone else to fold to the 500 raise. In that case, I might just call, and see the flop before deciding what to do. If the raiser has something like TT he might check to you with flops featuring a K or J (and no A or Q), in which case you can steal the pot where you would have lost had you gone all-in preflop.
You are probably best off folding here, however. There is too good a chance the raiser has you in a bad way. He has raised 2 limpers, and by an amount small enough that he should expect at least one caller. So, he should have a very good hand to play it this way. If he doesn't have a good hand, probably TT-AA or AK, he's probably playing it sub-optimally. Since this is the case, and all these hands but TT and JJ dominate you pretty good, you should just fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Funny-Right after, I thought to myself that I should have just called and saw the flop, then steal. The problem was that I had just moved to this table, as mine was broken, and knew nothing of this guy, other than his chip size. I hope to get some more responses, and will post his holdings and the flop-turn-river. Thanks!!
Funny-Right after, I thought to myself that I should have just called and saw the flop, then steal. The problem was that I had just moved to this table, as mine was broken, and knew nothing of this guy, other than his chip size. I didn't believe that he would make a small raise with TT,JJ with his chip position, plus the fact that only 2 non blind positins were left with decision. with TT,jj, or even QQ being vulnerable, I thought he would make a huge raise with these to not get flopped. Thus the problem of no prior knowledge of my player. I hope to get some more responses, and will post his holdings and the flop-turn-river. Thanks!!
Since this is your first NL tournament, you probably don't know how this player plays. So you can't base your decision on the player. If you're first in and have AQo in your situation, I think betting all-in is the correct move. But since you are calling a raise of this size, it's probably not a good move. I would try to wait for a hand where you are controlling the action.
JohnnyD
AQ is a weak holding to put all your chips in on a raised pot. I'd just never do it - you could be facing a number of hands that you are a huge dog to.
If you are thinking he has a weak holding cuz he only bet $500 you may be sorely mistaken, It is the kind of bet an experienced NL player makes when he wants to entice or isloate an inferior hand in for a big reraise and get heads up.
I'd smell a rat if the $500 bettor is any kind of NL player.
You put all your chips in on a weak holding and you may be drawing near dead with this, the only hand you are not a dog to is AJ> - I just don't like it at all.
You could have called here to see the flop but I'd probably just muck it.
In no limit you need a better hand to call with than you might raise with.
Hope this helps.
I'd suggest getting TJ Cloutiers "Championship PL NY Hold'em" book it is bound to help you out.
Pass! You are likely up against a hand which badly dominates you. The fact that there are two limpers also complicates things. One of the limpers may have a real hand. About the only hand you have in bad shape is AJ and an experienced player in this situation is not going to raise with. If he has AA, KK, QQ, or AK you are in bad shape. The only hand that you are basically even money with is a medium pocket pair. Wait for better oppurtunities. It is not desperation time yet.
Bruce
Horrible Play!
It's not the raise that I would worry about, but the two people limping early. i'd wait a little while longer and blind/ante steal in late position when everyone passed to me. Ask Doyle Brunson's advice on AQ. I believe he says never to play it in that situation. So if you don't believe me, believe HIM. Don't take it personally. You would be better off stealing with T8o in late position with everyone folding to you than moving all in here.
What did the guy have anyway? AK? KK? or AA? Good luck in the future.
Thanks for all the tips. It is clear to me that I should have waited. Oh well. For my first time, it wasn't too bad. For the record, he held AK and beal me AK high to AQ high. Any other tips/dangerous no limit hands that one would normally raise in a ring game/limit tourney would be great!
It's important to differentiate between this situation and one where the raiser was the first one in. With two limpers the raiser likely has a legitimate raising hand because there is a good chance he will be called by at least one of the ep limpers.
If he were the first in he could have a large number of different hands because he has a good chance of stealing the blinds/antes. I would reraise all in with AQ because there are so many hands that you can beat. I definitely would not call because you would probably have the best hand and playing the flop will be difficult against his wide range of hands.
A TA player can occasionally find opportunities to bluff large multiway pots on the river if the circumstances are perfect. I was able to identify and exploit one in each of my last two O/8 tourneys, presented here for your consideration and enjoyment.
Situation 1: 5 tables left out of about 15. Table is somewhat tight, with 2 - 4 players taking each flop. In this case, UTG limped which brought a larger than normal number of callers. I'm on the button with (AK)JT and limp with the others, total of 7 players taking the flop.
Flop: 23Q, one of my suit. Surprisingly, everyone checks to me, so I take a free card.
Turn: 23Q 9, giving me a big wrap and the nut flush draw. At this point, I'm thinking that there are a number of low draws and probably some low straight draws too. Some of my straight draws are to half the pot, but they're all the nuts. Needless to say, I like this turn card. Again it's checked to me and I bet. All but one player calls.
River: 23Q 9 9, missing me completely (damn!). When everyone again checks to me, I immediately think that I have a chance to steal this pot. I bet and each player considers and finally mucks. My image buys me this pot.
Second situation to follow.
-Oz-
Well played. Whoever had a Q was probably in early position and didn't have an A to go with it.
The turn and river bets are no-brainers, as is the pre-flop limp, but it never hurts to be reminded, esp. if you don't play O8 that much.
While I agree the turn bet is a no brainer, I'm not so sure the river is. A later position player may check/call trips here since I showed strength on the turn.
I don't routinely bluff into lots of players, but you do occasionally get the opportunity. It does seem that these situations are rarer in O/8 than in Holdem.
-Oz-
I have a tight image at the table in O8. Last night I fold all but one hand in 3 laps around the table. I got to play my big blind once. The usual suspects that I play with know I usually show the nuts. At least, that's what I want them to think.
I'm able to run a bluff similar to the above post about once a session. I know certain players will not call me if I bet. I take advantage of this fact.
Once again the TA image pays.
It's about the same for me. Once or twice a session I successfully pull off a bluff in an Omaha high/low game. Very rarely am I caught.
Makes me wonder if I'm bluffing enough.
Buzz
What is the address of IRC poker so that I can play these free no-limit tournies?
go to www.poker.net
you'll not only find some information about IRC, but also about an email tournament that is about to start.
JohnnyD
I had heard of IRC poker but had never tried it until last night. I played several tournaments and it is quite fun.
Do you think it is good practice for live NL tournaments?
Ken
It is not good practice, but it is the best free practice that I am aware of.
The problem is the levels go up quickly, typically every 6 minutes. Now, hands play faster on IRC than in real life, so these 6 minute levels are probably comparable to 10 minute levels. At the end of the event, when 2- or 3-handed, because there is no shuffling time, you are probably playing something comparable to 20 or 30 minute levels.
Another problem is it's online, so you don't get or learn any of the feel of NL poker. This will be a disadvantage when you first play real world poker.
Another problem is it's free. Some people do not make even a semblance of playing their best game. They might go all-in the first few hands with anything, because they want to double up and be chip leader or get out. You actually do see something like this in the smaller buyin real world events, but nothing like when it's free money.
However, as I stated above, the play on IRC is more realistic than any other free site that I've seen or heard of. The only better practice you're going to get for free is to get together a bunch of friends and play at home.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg. It's not exactly like a real tournament, but it's the best free you'll find. The reason it's the best is 1) they keep stats and most of the regulars want to have good stats and 2) many of the players have met each other at real tournaments. I have met many of them. There is pride in beating players you know.
I haven't played much lately because I've been playing more real tournaments. But I've seen Chris Ferguson and other "name" players on there from time to time.
JohnnyD
Situation 2: A couple of hours into the tourney, rebuys are over, but there are still 9 of 10 tables left. Everyone has noticably tightened up.
I'm in the BB with (A2)6J, UTG (solid, aware) limps, 2 other weak callers, SB folds, I rap.
Flop: (T8)7, my suit, great drawing potential, I bet. UTG immediately raises, I put him on the nut straight with a good, if not nut, low redraw. Both weak players call, I of course call.
Turn: (T8)7 K, I check, UTG bets, weak players call, I call.
River: (T8)7 K T. Misses me (again!) but it instantaneously occurs to me that this is a great bluffing card so I lead. UTG has a real quandry. Up to this point I have shown nothing but the nuts. I easily could have flopped and bet two pair or a set so my river bet is believable. Plus he has 2 unknowns behind him to worry about. He makes a painful but routine laydown. The weak players behind him have little or nothing and muck. My image buys another pot.
I'm a little more pleased with this play than Situation 1. It's a little easier to bluff when everyone has shown weakness: you just bet and pray. But in this case I was able to combine a number of items (tight image, aware player in bad poition, early betting) to make a winning play.
-Oz-
Ooooooh! Risky bluff! One of the "weak" players chould easily have been drawing for, and made, a full house. Plus one of the "weak" players could also have a straight (or trash) and call anyhow. Plus UTG could call with his straight or even could have had a set and a low on the flop.
I like your bluff in (Part I) better.
This one is perhaps a good bet, though, over the long run, if you frequently see these same players in tournaments. If you get caught here (called) it only costs you one big bet and the players at your table will be calling your nuts hands whevever they play with you again.
You didn't give your relative stack size, which is crucial in making bold plays in tournaments.
I'm curious as to why you characterized two of the players here as "weak."
Buzz
OK, fair enough, there definately was some risk in this bluff. It was just a matter of risk to reward ratio. Even though they're weak, they can read UTG for the straight too. I think that his laydown (after a fair amount of consideration) may have influenced theirs. Obviously they're going to call me with some non nut full, but I felt at the time they didn't even have as much as a straight. If UTG lays down a straight in this situation, how foolish do they look calling with top pair?
Here's what I mean by "weak". Calling with non nut A3 and A4 low draws, non nut straight and flush draws, to half the pot, etc. Case in point: one of them limps before the flop, I'm in the SB and call with (KQ)23. I lead at a (AJ)J flop and we're heads up. I bet the entire way with a (AJ)J 7 4 board, and when he calls the river, I assume I'm getting half the pot. He shows 6523 and I get 3/4 with my KQ high. How would you describe his play? :)
WRT stack size, we all had medium stacks, able to withstand 2-3 full bet cycles. I'd never make this bluff with my case chips, but I felt it was warranted in this situation.
-Oz-
Oz - You wrote, "Here's what I mean by "weak". Calling with non nut A3 and A4 low draws, non nut straight and flush draws, to half the pot, etc. Case in point: one of them limps before the flop, I'm in the SB and call with (KQ)23. I lead at a (AJ)J flop and we're heads up. I bet the entire way with a (AJ)J 7 4 board, and when he calls the river, I assume I'm getting half the pot. He shows 6523 and I get 3/4 with my KQ high. How would you describe his play?"
Thanks. I see what you mean by weak. I might have said too loose before the flop and too speculative after the flop. I think of weak in a different way, as being cowardly, like afraid to raise without the nuts and too susceptible to bluffs on the end without the nuts, but I see what you mean by weak here.
In this case your opponent has gotten heads up with you. Is it possible that your opponent percieves you as a very aggressive player and is willing to "call you down" especially when playing heads up with you? In the example given, your opponent's hand may be too weak to see the flop, but what about your own hand? Are you used to betting with garbage and then having everyone fold unless they have the kind of hand you are (falsely) representing with your betting?
In this case, your opponent didn't play as you expected. I agree that calling a bet with 6532 heads up after a flop of AJJ seems unwise, worse than calling in the small blind with KQ23 and then leading at the AJJ flop.
A major part of the intrigue of Omaha high/low for me is trying to figure out why people are playing in a certain way (including putting them on hands) and then trying to exploit their weaknesses while avoiding their strengths. Sometimes opponents simply play foolishly. (Bless them!) More often there is some reason for their play.
Just trying to find it for you in this situation. :-)
Buzz
I know this is the tourament form, but....I don't think you could have made the same play in a ring game. Agree?
Yeah, I don't make this bluff in a ring game. But in a tourney, those chips are more dear and players are more reluctant to make loose calls.
-Oz-
Buzz -
It wasn't my intention to do a full analysis of this hand but I can explain my thinking. Perhaps you didn't notice that I had a flush draw on the flop. My flop bet was a pure semibluff; I didn't see how anyone could call me without a J, and I thought if I hit my flush or gutshot it would be good.
My turn bet is more questionable, but since I picked up a low draw, I decided to push it once more, still thinking that he can't call me without a J; heck, he's calling a small pot for a draw to half of it.
On the river, I thought I was freerolling because I didn't think he could call without a good high hand. I had practically told him I had at least trips. I was very surprised to see his low.
-Oz-
Oz - Thanks.
You wrote, "Perhaps you didn't notice that I had a flush draw on the flop."
No. I missed it. I wondered why you had some cards enclosed in parentheses. Must be you meant those cards enclosed in parentheses were in the same suit. If so, now I get it.
You wrote, "On the river, I thought I was freerolling because I didn't think he could call without a good high hand. I had practically told him I had at least trips. I was very surprised to see his low."
It seems more surprising that he called the flop without a high hand. On the river I would expect him to have a low (and maybe a jack too).
Thanks for sharing your thinking. Gutsy play!
Buzz
OM/8 bluffing:
In traditional limit poker(pre Sklansky or PS)" draw poker, loball, or stud;" the general intent of bluffing was to win the pot on this last bet.
Then Sklansky defined semi-bluffing in stud or holdem as a way to save some money or maybe win the pot right now.
But now in OM/8, the science of betting can become much more complex and knowing the opponents stragety "or lack of" is very important. For instance, I have mucked an A 3 second nut made low because of a pre flop raise by a late position player who played a fourth nut A 4 low like it was "the nuts"(this player would preflop raise on poor hands such as A 4 7 J -- all unsuited.)After playing with this guy two times, I had him figured out and realized he was a fish. Good OM/8 players learn out to bet to get the most out of the game. Betting for these excellant players becomes an art -- of course your betting style has to vary some to prevent the opponents from getting a good read on you.
I have downloaded both version 2 and 3 with success but they don't work at all. All I see is a message saying unable to connect socket or something like that.
I've been playing it for about 6 years and I can tell you that it works fine... Let me guess your an AOL member right? From time to time because so many complete p****s from AOL try to distrupt the games there the floormen have not choice but to bar the whole of AOL.
D.
.
If you are playing at your work, there may be a firewall preventing the connection. I am at home playing as we speak.
Ken
I'm curious if this is the same Joe Nardo, previously known as Predator, and if so, how are the muggings going?
It is me. What do you mean by the muggings?
Seems to me like you posted awhile back that you were getting mugged on a regular basis. I forget the nature of your question, but something to the effect that you were wondering how to avoid that problem. I had the same concern when traveling around the country, but ran into no problems. Parked in lighted areas with security and/or cameras.
Last night's freeroll at pokerspot.com...
For an hour and a half, I've been seeing the worst dreck imaginable: it's eerily like the reverse of Asian Hold 'Em, playing with a deck with all the high cards removed. Hand after hand is 8-4, 9-6, 4-2, 7-5, etc.; the few times I snag face cards they always seem to be paired with a 2, 3 or 4.
Up to this point, I have won three pots, mainly because I haven't been playing the above hands, and managed to luckily pair the river on an all-in to survive a little while longer.
Final hand: we're down to about 45 people out of the original 150; all players were given $425 in chips so the average stack is $1,275; I have $250 and it's my $50 big blind.
Four callers to me; I've been dealt 9c-9h and go all in. Respectful (*ahem*) of my all-in raise, everybody calls. Flop comes down 4h-7h-8h; check, bet, fold, fold. I'm all in, player before the bettor folds. Head's up.
Turn is Qd; I have no idea whether I still have a chance at this stage but I do have second high pair and a backdoor to the flush. A win would bring my stack back to average ($1,250 pot); who knows what might happen then.
River is the 6h. I've gutshotted a flush, but I realize it's probably not enough. Bettor's cards are shown; he has the As-5h.
Wham. I'm out in 44th place out of 150 people.
Like I said, if you gotta go...what better way than to a straight flush?
Foldie
" Four callers to me; I've been dealt 9c-9h and go all in. Respectful (*ahem*) of my all-in raise, everybody calls. Flop comes down 4h-7h-8h; check, bet, fold, fold. I'm all in, player before the bettor folds. Head's up."
You didn't give the complete action here, but I'm guessing that there were 4 callers and then you took the option to raise in the big blind. It seems to me a better strategy here would be to check. Then when you get a low flop you can push all in with your overpair.
It might not have changed the result - anyone who plays A5 off would probably call your all in bet with a gutshot straight flush draw anyway - but pusing all in before the flop in a multi way pot with 99 doesn't seem like the right way to go. If you had a reasonable chance to get heads up before the flop then I would agree - but here it looks like there was no chance.
Good points.
I think by that time I was more frustrated than anything else; some days you just can't get good starting cards even if you sacrifice *two* live goats to the god of poker.
At that point, I was -- by a substantial margin -- low man on the chip board; I'm may be recalling this incorrectly but I believe the next lowest total on my table was roughly $800.
I thought with $275 in the pot ($25 +$50+ 4(50)) it was worth going in. I agree with you that A-5 offsuit probably would have called the gutshot in any instance and obviously would not have changed the end result. I also agree with you that calling pre-flop would have been the smarter move, but my strategy was to try to get a couple of the initial betters to fold. Call it a semi-bluff. Of course, it's much easier to semi-bluff with a big stack than with smoke.
Foldie
I think you played correctly and were unlucky. You have the best hand before the flop, and if A5o is going to call 200 raise then you have much the best of it. The vast majority of the time the flop is going to come with an overcard and you'll have no idea where you stand. An overcard will flop 81% of the time. Therefore simply checking doesn't seem a good idea since you'll be folding some of the time on the flop when you actually have the best hand. By getting your money in before the flop you are guaranteed to have the best of it and you may (I guess not at the table you were at) win the pot pre-flop or at least knock some players out who would have won had the been allowed to stay in.
No Limit Holdem Tournment. Standard payout for top nine finishers. Down to final two tables, each with 9 players. Blinds are at $100/200, but due to rise to $150/300 in the next few minutes. My stack is $1500 which is one of the smaller stacks on the table. Two large stacks have been playing very aggressively and are calling any standard raise (3X big blind) with medioce hands. If they catch any piece of the flop, they will not fold and might well continue with just overcards if the bet on the flop is from one of the smaller stacks. Their standards seem to be any Ace, any two big cards, any pair, as well as medium connectors An all in bet by a small stack such as mine might not be enough to prevent them from calling with these hands. The rest of the table has gone into survival mode, trying to make the final table.
For this hand the large stacks are in the cutoff and Small Blind. I am UTG with 99. None of the other players will call any raise with less than a premium hand and many might well muck AK. What is my play? What if I were in a more favoable position such as just before the cutoff and no one had entered the pot?
Thanks, Calvin
If you limp, will one of them raise almost 100%? If so, then you might want to limp, see if a couple of others limp, then they raise, and you can reraise all-in. This will achieve getting it heads-up with the big stack as a likely favorite, and also get some extra dead money in there as well.
Also, if one of the other players, who's in ultra-tight mode, makes a raise, you can fold knowing you're against an overpair.
If they will not raise unless they have a very good hand (i.e., they'll call, but not raise, with marginal hands), then you need to raise now and drive out the other players who might be tempted to call with KQ and the like. Since you say the big stacks will likely call any raise, and since the standard raise is 40% of your stack anyway, raise all-in. The only advantage of raising to 600 would be to save the 900 to bet the flop with, so that you can drive them out while they're still drawing live. However, if they're going to call on the flop with just overcards anyway, then you might as well get the money in now, and not let them escape when they flop nothing (including no overcards). If they're only drawing to runner-runner or a gutshot on the flop, you'd want them to call, and you'd wish their money was already in.
I think mere survival is not enough here. You have to win some chips to even creep into 9th place. And to win, you've got a long way to go. 99 is a reasonable hand to go for it with when the guys will call with hands that are slight dogs to big dogs (e.g., 89s and lower pairs).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well if you bet the $600 you are gonna be put all in or so it seems. If you just call you probably ar gonna be put in too - I say push them in and hope to get one of the big stacks with a 89 or 88.
Hope you won it.
I like Fossil man's approach
He basically said the same thing I did I just used 5% of the space he did.
You see I don't get paid by the word. :-)
Thanks - I like Gregs advice to limp in for this particular situation since it gives me the option of folding relatively cheaply if one of the tight players decides to raise. For the record, I went all in and lost when one of the big stacks called with AK.
Calvin
Hi!
Bad tourney for me yesterday.
Single table NL HE tourney.
Not a single pot won. All of those 8-3off, 6-2, 10-4 name it I had them all. the best hands I got was 66 and A-9 of clubs. WOW!!!It happens, I'll get them next time...
Anyway, here's a hand I questionned myself after playing it yesterday. All players are known to me except one (Unknown player-UP). This is his first NL HE tourney. I know he's played a lot of poker with friends in home games. From what I've seen of him to this point, he's better than average but not that great. Not tight tho.
Second round of play, the blinds are 5-10. We started with 1000$. I have 950 now. I pick up 3-4off in the BB. Free flop. 5 players in.
Flop comes 2-5-6 rainbow.
Bingo!!!!
Now this is very early in the tournament, all of the bets have been the minimum or so. I don't know how much UP can take if I bet a good amount. I'm thinking slowplay to get the maximum profit.
I check. check. UP bets 50, fold, fold, I call, fold fold. Heads-up.
Later in the tourney, I've would have played differently, more aggressively, especially on the turn.
Turn is a 6. I checked, he bet 50, I called.
River is a 9.
I check, he bets 50, I raise to 200, He reraises me to 400. I don't know him and I don't know if he can be aggressive with say 2 pair or more likely trip 6.
I flat called. He could have a boat.
Would you have played it differently????
I'll post the showdown later...
Thanks
theprince00
You're in a lot of trouble with this hand when five players see the flop. You should have played this hand fast on the flop and just pick up what's there. I can just about bet that someone made a full house.
Just reviewed the tournament results and entries seem way down - Commerce Heavenly HE tourney are just over 200 and I know the Commerce tournaments I've played in always had 400+ the Pot of Gold in Reno is running under 100 per tournament and I know last year they were a lot bigger.
Juice problems or just a wind down of players interested in tournaments. Maybe the Orleans scandal had some effect on it.
What ever the numbers seem to be gpingh in the wrong direction.
Any comments.
The Orleans scandal????? what happened????????
Cheers,
Keith
Hey Keith,
It was all over the net the tournament director was arrested and charged with stealing $200k of the players money during the tournament.
No news as to his current status.
BTW - I can't wait to get back to the UK and mix it up with you guys again - any plans to come stateside for some action air fares are really cheap now.
Mike
Hey Mike...
Wow.... that is really shocking.... is he accused of weeding money from tournmaent pools????
Scandal is right anyways! (the reason I missed the news? probably because I spend too long in online sports books :P)
I was planning on coming out for the Hall of Fame... but the news of its cancellation even reached my little bit of England :(
So, unless I can get time off work to go to the Harrahs replacement tournie in Reno.... I doubt Ill see Vegas until next years WSOP.
What is the actioon like in Reno anyways?? How well attended do you think it will be???
well... I better get on..... got to search these online sportsbooks for some +130 about the Giants tonight :)
We are keeping a seat warm for you at Reading for your return Mike :)
Cheers,
Keith
So
Reno is fantastic. Much smaller than Vegas and easy to get around. I recomment it and will be playing there later this year.
Action in Reno is OK there are some NL games though I don't recall much PL there Peppermill and Hilton do a crack up job on the tournaments.
Later Mike
Hey,
From what I understand, the money that was taken from the Orleans by the tournament director was juice, not player's money.
As for the World Poker Challenge (WPC) which is replacing the Carnivale next year and will be held at the Reno Hilton for three weeks in January, from what I've heard, a lot of people are planning on attending.
I think that since there will be so many people there, the side action will be good, regardless of how it is the rest of year (usually not so good, although there are some NL games that go).
Hope to see you there.
Max
The side game action is just too strong in So. Cal. to justify playing in tournaments. Pot limit is great and the 40-80 and 80-160 action is on fire. Why play in a tournament? I have a better overlay in ring games.
bruce
Because they are fun.
I was in a NL hold'em tourney yesturday. I had 6 other players at the table. I was on the button and held Ad-Jd. First 3 check, next player bets, next folds, next calls, I call, the rest fold.
Flop comes Ac-10s-2s, opener bets, I raise, next folds, and the opener(a pretty loose player)calls. turn is As.
He bets about half of my money. Now I am thinking a couple things.
He either holds the other ace and possibly a queen or king, although his preflop standards are pretty low. He holds a K or Q of spades.
Or he has made his flush. But this guy is pretty weak and loose. I decided to reraise all in.
He fliped over Qs-Js, the river was no help. And I am gone. Obviously I made the wrong decision for this particular hand. But I was thinking about it. And against a weaker player like this I am pretty sure I made the right move. Does anyone have any thoughts or input on what I should have done? Or any future advice?
NL is a betting game - you made a big mistake just calling on the button with this hand you should have eigther mucked it or made a big bet - since the raiser was loose weak you should have put him to the test pre flop but if you thought you were beat just muck it.
With that flop you are at a real disadvantage what could he have that he would just bet and call your raise which was probably to small. The turn is a disaster for you and here is where you make your big bet.
I am not sure you classified this guy correctly - he out played you on this hand specially with his calculated bet on the turn.
Better luck next time.
John,
You need to put your opponents on a variety of hands. After he bet on the turn you should have folded. His actions indicate that he probably was on a draw.
I am a professional poker player that rarely plays tournaments. I have played many tournys over the years but because of limited (poor) success I gave them up. I felt, and still feel they are a waste of time.
I also believe I am making some fundamental errors. Something is amiss. The tournys start out somewhat pallid with a lot of room for play but once you reach the final two (sometimes three) tables in these smaller events the crapshoot effect takes over and forces you to just plain gamble. Needless to say I haven't been very lucky.
It is true you see a lot of the same people do well but they play in almost every event and will very often blow their tourny win in a 10-20 or higher side game. I've seen this happen half a dozen times. I don't feel that a lot of these tourny winners are very good players but just happen to have a little bit more gamble than the rest of us and therefore have an edge in the crapshoot end-game type structure.
So, I am thinking of re-entering the tourny world, at least for a while and would like to hear of one or two of the most important pieces of advice you could give. I do OK in the beginning but when it starts to get important and you are approching the money or are at the last table I fall apart. Is this my own doing or am I just a victim of the structure? It seems to me I should have done better over the years at tournaments.
Thanks, Charlie
Despite your time as a pro, it sounds like you don't have much experience playing short-stacked. And as a pro, that's not surprising. You probably know better than to let yourself get short-stacked in a ring game. Most winning players would rather have lots of chips at all times in a cash game.
In a tourney, during the early period, everyone has plenty of chips, and you should play your normal cash game strategy. Playing the odds, value bets, semi-bluffs, all of it.
Once you reach the point where lots of players cannot play a hand to the end, lose it, and not be eliminated or crippled, play changes. You must take into account when you can get someone to fold because they want to save what they have left for another hand. And, when someone won't fold, even a near hopeless hand, because the pot is so big relative to what they have left in their stack, they feel pot-committed and go for it.
For example, a guy might call your raise with KQ early on, and call your flop bet just because he has overcards to the flop. Later on, he might either fold preflop, or fold on the flop, because he feels he can't afford it. Or, a guy who folded his KQ earlier will play it now because he's feeling desperate, and this is the best hand he's seen in a while. You need to keep these thoughts in mind, and adjust your play for them.
This is what makes tourneys fun. Not only do you you adjust for the players, you adjust to their continuous adjustments (whether intelligently driven or not).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg's right about everything he said. In a live game you probably know all the things to pay attention to. The things you need to pay attention to in a tournament are different.
The sucessful tournament players know who's solid and who's gambling. They know who is trying to win and who is trying to survive. They know who has adapted to the increasing limits and who has not. etc.
By knowing these things, you know who is likely to bluff, who is likely to fold, who is only going to be in a pot with a good hand, etc. You know who to challange and who to avoid.
So, even though many of the tournaments become a crapshoot, you still can have an edge if you're playing the player.
JohnnyD
in a tournament's middle rounds when you find yourself going all in, is it generally better to raise and shorten the field or limp and let everyone in so you win a bigger pot if you win the hand? I realize that other factors are involved, but, say you have 2 or 3 SB left and you are in late middle position with, say, J10 suited and one limper. do you raise in the hopes that a single jack or ten will win it for you, or do you limp and let the blinds in so you can get away from it on the flop?
i will (almost) never limp if i am committing more than 15% or so of my stack.
When shoryt-stacked, it is always preferable to have only one opponent to race, particularly with something cheesy like JTs or Ace-rag.
No opponents is even better.
There are few spots in a tourney where you shouldn't try to eliminate opponents when you know you're going to be all-in. Very seldom will the additional gain from extra players justify the extra risk of losing and going broke.
In your example of JTs, with 1 limper, I would fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Regarding Fossilman's answer: Greg;I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure why. Could you please explain your rationale for folding that hand under the circumstances described? Is the major issue here one of positon (late middle) and the concern for the later hands, plus the blinds? Are there other mitigating circumstances that should be taken into account when confronted with a situation like this?
When you're down to a few bets, you generally need to get your money in when you're the favorite. Here, JTs is not likely to be the favorite against the limper. What are the chances that the limper has a no-pair hand worse than JT? There just aren't many hands that they could have that fit this category. More likely, they have a weak A, medium K, or a medium to small pair. Even if they're as weak as Q9o, they're ahead of you.
Wait for the next hand, and be the first one in with a raise, and only come in behind someone else if you are likely to have the better hand. Wait for the right opportunity, and don't concern yourself with how well a hand ranks for general play, but with how well it does heads-up, as it is much more likely to be heads-up and all-in than it is to be multiway, with betting on the turn and river.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With one limper before you, you should throw it away. You're probably against a pocket pair or two big overcards making you a big dog. You increase your chances to win when you are the first to enter the pot with a raise. Either everyone will fold, or you will get one caller.
When trying to build your stack, you want to play heads up or have the blinds fold. You want to be the first to enter the pot, and when you enter, raise it. Sooner or latter you will get played with and may get lucky or unlucky.
Don't worry about the value of the cards so much. The most common hand you will make is a pair and the bigger the pair you make the better. You will make a pair 48.7% of the time as long as your cards are live. This is why you see someone get lucky and win a big pot with a trash hand like jack-four unsuited, for example.
Warning! When you are up against more than one player you will go from a 50% dog to a 66% or worse.
If you're short stacked with a big hand, you can limp in and hope you get raised. If you don't get raised, push it all in on the flop and hope you get lucky.
when you are very low on chips it may pay to try to get a multiway pot so you can triple or better your position. thats when just doubling up does you little good and puts you in the same spot you were just in. with 2 or 3 sb left(you may have meant bb) you have no power to run anyone out before the flop so it may be better to try for the multiway hand. but in this case it may be better to fold.
I did mean SB, meaning that this would be my last round or two (2nd with one or less SB) unless I played something.
I was thinking that you would want the chance to take down multiple bets at this point rather than just the blinds or a heads up pot, as moving up one place in the middle of a tournament only means that you lose later.
what you are saying is correct for many situations. it pays to risk going broke even as a decent dog to accumulate some chips rather than get in on a 50% hand headup just to have to do it again in a few minutes if you win with maybe any two cards.
One question Ray, if you decide to go for it because a couple of people have come in, and the pot is going to be multiway, what's the worst dog you would play? Just give me an example from your past experience.
its a function of how many hands you get to see before the blinds come around and wipe you out. also how many chips you need to have to be a viable contestant. forget about that chip and a chair saying. thats for the dreamers as it happens only once in a while and in direct proportion to the total amount of chips in play. i wouldnt let myself get into that position as ive said before unless i just lost a pot that has left me short. its like asking what to do if you paint yourself into a corner. the answer is dont. if there were a few tight players in id pick any two smaller cards together or suited perhaps if i was getting short and didnt have any way to win blinds by raising coming in. i would want to try not to get my little stack in against similar but better hands than i might have.
Thanks for the answer Ray. But, I was hoping to get a poker tale from you this time.
If you let your stack get too low before you make a move, then you can't control any of the action. Nobody will fold. I sounds like that the situation you're in. If you limp and don't hit the flop, then you're even worse off. In your situation, I might fold. And if I played, I would raise all-in. That way, it may be heads up and if you hit your J or T that might be enough. Or if several call, at least you have the chance to triple through or more.
You're not going to win many tournaments by waiting for AA or KK. When I get real short, I play hands like this just like I had AA.
JohnnyD
I've played in two other no limit hold'em tourneys before so my experince is limited. The structure is $15 buyin and $10 Rebuys the first hour. The rebuy period is over and the blinds are 50 & 100. I have the BB with T450 left after posting. Four people call including the button, the SB folds and I have AQ off I go all in. Everyone folds to the button who calls quickly. We turn them over and he has Q4 spades. I feel good about my chances and even better with the flop Q82 rainbow. The turn is a 4 and the river a blank. My questions are should I have gone all in at this point? Why would someone call $450 more with a hand like Q4S?
Any replies much welcomed,
cj
Bad beat. I think you made the right play, although there is some merit to seeing if you like the flop before committing all of your chips. You will still have 400 left after posting the SB and that is enough to steal the blinds or pick up a hand.
I would have probably just checked preflop. While it seems unlikely that anyone has a better hand right now, you can't be too sure of that. For example, some people like to limp in first with AA or KK, and hope that someone behind them raises, so they can reraise. Also, you could easily find yourself called by a slightly better hand such as a medium pair. While the latter isn't terrible (due to the dead money from the 3 who folded), it leaves you as slightly more likely than not to go broke.
Of course, after this flop, you would want to bet all-in so as not to give a free card, and any guy who would call your all-in preflop bet with Q4s would have to call now when the flop gave him top pair. So, either way you lose to this dim-bulb. However, going all-in preflop is OK as long as you are confident (like 95% or more), that nobody has QQ, KK, or AA.
Later, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
With 4 callers of the 100, I would tend to limp in. AQ although a nice hand is better played headsup. Since 4 people called 100, it is very likely 2 or 3 will call your raise.
Once I see the flop, then I would throw in all my chips. In this case Mr. Q4 would win and you would go home.
As far as why would he call with Q4, it really depends on how many chips he has and the type of player. I can't think of many cases where I would call an all-in raise with Q4 suited, but some players feel it is their duty to call an all-in player.
Ken
Why do some players feel its their duty to call all-in players? Perhaps if the all-in player is short stacked his opponent can finally get the all-in player to go broke even with crap like Q4s?
"Should I have gone all in at this point ?" probably, though Greg's points are valid. It certainly isn't very wrong.
"Why would someone call $450 more with a hand like Q4s". I don't know. God bless 'em though.
Andy.
How many chips did the caller have? If $450 was a large percentage of his stack, he should not have called. If he was the chip leader and/or the $450 was only a small part of his stack, they I believe he made the correct move.
As far as your move, I may have done the same thing, but that depends on how the players have been playing.
JohnnyD
The caller had approx T1800. I feel it was to early in the tourney for someone to risk that many chips with such a weak hand. But what do I know he knocked me out.
I was in a WSOP qualifier yesterday night, and it was down to the last 2. I had T9000 the button had T15000. The blinds were 800 - 1600.
I post my SB and get dealt A - A. My oppenent is very aggresive, I believe his style is very suitable for heads up play. I look at him and it looks as though he is not too excited about his hand, so I smooth call him with black A's.
He checks.
Flop is 459 with 2 diamonds. I still don't feel he has anything. I check, and he bets 200... but the houseman says he must bet at least the big blind (1600), so he does. What should I do...? I raised all in and he folded. I was pretty sure he didn't have anything... should I have gave him another card...? _______________________________________ The next hand I am BB and post 1600. We are almost even in chips. I am dealt A - 6 clubs. He looks at his cards and goes all-in... I know he will go all in with a wide variety of hands... such as any A or any K any small or medium pocket pair, and he may be on a complete steal. He won't go all in with a monster such as AA or KK... so that is out. What should I do...? I called his all in and he had A-9... I was a huge dog and lost... I figured I had a good chance at having the best hand, but I was very wrong.
Comments?
Derrick
The first hand, it really depends on the pattern of play up to that point, your perception of each other, and so on. If you have been stealing a lot there is a good case for raising with AA pre-flop as it is the most deceptive thing you can do. So many players will just call but if you call, then bet the flop, and then he passes, you haven't won any more than if you had just raised in the first place. It's always worth considering. As you say "he won't go all in with a monster such as AA or KK" - well he probably thinks the same of you.
In the second hand, even with his "wide variety" of hands, too many of them have you in trouble. A-7 or higher, any pair 7 or higher have you chasing 3 outs. The only hands he could have where you are that strong is A-5 through 2. Again it depends on all the usual things but KQ or even QJ etc. is usually a better hand to call with than A-small in this kind of situation.
Andy
You could have palyed it cute with aht aa but I think you played it ok you never know what might happen. He could have a small D and runner runner D's is not impossible.
OK with the A6 too it is a good hand heads up - you just got beat.
Better luck next time.
Thanks for your responses.
Derrick
You just never know what's going to happen when you slow play big hands. Here are three NL tournament hands where KK was slow played:
1) TARGET tournament, final table. Lee Jones in early position just calls the blinds preflop. Me and one other also call the blinds. I have JT suited. The flop is total garbage with Ten high. Lee bets all-in. I put him on a steal, with him thinking nobody hit that flop. I have top pair and call. He had KK and I'm eliminated. I believe he played it well and I played it poorly.
2) Gila River, a couple months ago. Me and another player outlasted about 100 players to get heads up. I get KK in the small blind and slowplay. We see a garbage flop. Both check. Turn nothing, we both check. I'm wanting him to make the first move so I can double through. River blank but paired the board, I make a small bet hoping for a call or raise. He raised all-in. He had flopped two pair and made a full house. I cost myself the tournament by slowplaying preflop.
3) This weekend at Commerce. I'm under the gun with KK and just call the blind. One player goes all-in and another calls all-in. I have more chips than both of them and call. Neither improved and I busted out two players. It worked this time.
JohnnyD
If you first don't succeed, try try again.
I've had the darndest luck going all-in with pocket kings late in a tournaments. I was busted when an Ace hit on the river, when a seven hit on the river and when an Ace hit the flop.
Ken
I posted something similiar a couple of weeks ago where I had AA in SB with all folds around to me. I elected to slow play them with only completing the bet. The BB checked and three clubs came. I was still trying to trap him so checked again and he went all-in. I called and he turned over two little cards with a 4 of clubs. Turn was red, but 7 clubs came on river and his 4 of clubs completed the flush.
Most of the comments suggested that I should have raised preflop. But, I still support my play at that time. It was the turn that I really misplayed by not betting or going all-in. BB would have folded as he told me later he was on a steal when he did his all-in.
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
Hi everyone,
I also posted this in the other games section.
The local cardroom is holding a No limit crazy pineapple tournament this evening. I've played the game a couple of times at the 3-6 limit and I am wondering if anyone has ever played this game no-limit and has some thoughts to share.
Most of the players in this cardroom are 4-8 Hold'em players and they are weak for the most part, so I am thinking that the fact that there is an extra card might make this particular game very loose (the room also spreads an omaha hi game where it is not uncommon for 9 players stay in to see the flop for double bets). Also, the tournament will have rebuys during the first three levels and an add-on right before the break. ($50 buy in, $15 rebuys and a $25 add-on for a $5000 guaranteed prize pool)
Thanks,
Carlos
With the 3 card hole and discard of one on the flop - If I got that right I would think one would like to have the flop before committing to any kind of highly committal bet since it is a high/low game. Just a thought but I'd save my ammo until I saw the flop under these conditions.
Rounder is right, in that you would prefer to wait for the flop before putting a lot of money in. Especially since these guys are HE players, they will probably way overvalue hands like overpairs after the flop, so you want to get in there with hands that flop a set or at least 2 pair.
Even with AA, you need to be very cautious about putting in a lot of money on the flop or later. It is so easy for some one to outflop this hand. Lesser overpairs, especially QQ and lower, just aren't that great in most situations.
However, if people are jamming it up preflop, then about all you can do is wait for AA or A23s, or other (few) premium hands. If there is a lot of limping preflop, then you can play quite a few more hands, as long as you are good at knowing when to jam up 2 pair on the flop, and when to abandon it.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think this game will be played Hi only. So maybe just pairs with a suited connector (i.e. 99Ts, JJQs) or large suited cards might be the best hand selection. However, it seems to me that just like in HE tournaments, pairs go up in value in the later stages.
Carlos
What's the difference between limit hold'em and head-hunter hold'em tournaments? (The Bicycle Casino in California has one)
Thanks, Dan
"Head Hunter" is probably refering to what is usually called "bounty" where the player knocking out another is rewarded with some money each time they send a fellow player packing.
I posted a brief report for tonight's 200-player free roll tounament on the internet forum. Maybe we need a new Internet Tournament forum.
I venture to the local cardclub to play a $50 buy-in (T1000), $15 unlimited re-buys (T500), and a $25 add-on after the break (T1000) crazy pineapple tournament (high only). The tournament pays a $10 bounty for every player you knock out and does not return to the game.
The blinds started at 50-100 and were doubled every 15 minutes.
There were a couple of key hands that I will post below (comments welcome). However, one comment was that due to the high blind structure the tournament played more like a crap shoot and it definitely was conducive to rebuys. The tournament had a $5,000 guaranteed prize pool, though the funny thing was that when I asked the tournament director how many buy-ins, re-buys and add-ons were he said he didn't know (I wonder if anyone has ever been in this situation). First place paid $2000; Second paid $1400; Third paid $900; and, Fourth paid $700.
Couple of hands:
I have a Qs8sJc. I limp for T200 in late position and have around T600 at this point. The flop came 4s8cTs. All check to me and I go all in. 3 players call my bet. Turn and river are blanks. And my Qs8s takes the pot as I was against AsQs and Js9s both players missing their flush.
Another key hand I have 889 and a tight player limps. He has around T1900. I have T1800 and I want to play heads up with the blinds. The blinds at this point are T200 and T500. I know that the tight player is capable of folding since he has a marginal hand. Otherwise he would've come in for a raise rather than limping for T500. I raise all in with my T1800. SB folds and BB calls and is all-in for T1400. Tight player thinks for a few seconds and decides to call. Flop was a beauty 8d7d3h. Turn 3d and river was a Js. I won with my eights full of threes. The tight player told me he had a big ace with a 3 and thought he had sucked out with his trip threes.
Then the break and I decide not to add-on since it will only add T1000 to my T5000. I have to post a T1000 big blind at this point and it would've cost me $25. Was this a good decision? I figured that in most cases with T500 and T1000 blinds and a stack of T4000 (after posting the blind) I would've been all-in in most cases, so it didn't make much of a difference whether I had T5000 or T4000. Maybe it did as I we might see later.
The final key had was when the blinds were T500 and T1000. I have T5200 at this point and the chip leader, has been playing very aggressively and is sitting 2 to my right opens for T3000. He has been doing this all night with a wide range of hands and has been hitting some amazing runner runner draws and some 5-outers against clear overpairs on the flop. I go all in with my AcKh7c. The flop comes 7d7s3c. I discard my Kh and win a T13500 pot.
Blinds double, it's down to 2 tables and 17 players. I start to blind out. I make it to the final table with T5000 and the blinds are T2000 and T4000. The person to my right has T6000 and 2 to my right has T3000. The chip leader has around T35000, and there are other stacks between T8000 and T13000. I get dealt the button and we start. A player makes a move on the first hand and busts. We now have 8 players. The chip leader busts 2 players in the next move and it's not down to 6 players, with the two other short stacks still in the game. I decide not to play a hand and hope that the two players to my right bust before the blinds get to me. Player 2 to my right posts a T3000 (all-in) blind and the player to my right posts a T4000 blind leaving him with T2000. Chip leader raises and both short stacks are all in. Player to my right wins as he flops two pairs and the chip leader fails to outdraw him. It's not down to 5 players and I have to post a T4000 blind leaving me with T1000. Chip leader raises. SB folds his T2000 blind and I toss my last chip with a K64. Flop comes As9d6d, I discard the 4 leaving me with bottom pair and a King kicker. Turn is a blank and river is a diamond and the chip leader makes a diamond flush with a KdJd and I am out in 5th place 1 away from the money.
Any comments?
Carlos
Wow, so many things to comment on, I don't know where to start.
First off, the prize pool. They guaranteed 5K, and paid 5K, but the TD says he doesn't even know how many rebuys/addons there were. Given the format of this event, I would guess that the average player puts in well over $100. So, if you had 40 or more players, there is a chance that you beat the guarantee, and should have been paid more.
Second, rebuys. These rebuys are cheaper than the original buyin chips. Take every single rebuy you can. And take the addon, no matter what your chip count is at the time. When the later buys are cheaper than the original buy, you should always take it. ALWAYS.
Third, blinds. These stakes are ridiculous. If you go broke and rebuy, even during the first level, you only have 5x the big blind. That's a single raise preflop all-in, and leaves no play on the flop, turn, or river. In fact, this entire tourney probably saw all players all-in before the turn at least 95% of the time. Tell the TD that you don't want to play in his event unless he gives you more play. With these stack sizes, and this being NL, the blinds should start at more like 15-25.
Fourth, Qs8sJc. You limped with this hand for T200, leaving you with T600. You can't limp in for 1/4 of your stack with hardly anything, and you certainly shouldn't do it with a cheesy hand like this. This hand may not even be in the top 50% of all hands for pineapple, and if it is, it isn't much better than average.
Fifth, 889. This again is a very weak hand in crazy pineapple. It is much easier for people to be dealt pairs, so you will end up against an overpair much more often than in HE. Secondly, this hand is probably a dog to a hand with 3 overcards, since they will get all 3 to see the flop. If it's not a dog to a hand like AKQ, AQT, etc., then it can't be much of a favorite. Only a really weak player is going to call your all-in with a hand that isn't either a big favorite or a small dog here.
Play a lot tighter in this game. You need to have a hand that is much better than a typical HE hand to play. If a hand like KQo is marginal in a NL HE game, then a hand like KQ9o in NL CP is terrible.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Qs8sJc- Not to mention that this hand was rendered even more cheesy given that another player held AsQsx.
Michael,
You are right. Then the player must've had the AsKs. My mistake there. I just noticed that I was a bit excited when they both missed their flushes and my pair of 8's won the hand.
Carlos
Greg,
The blinds were in fact way too high for the stakes played. As far as the rebuys I don't know if the house made any money on the tournament, they didn't tell me how many people rebought, which I think shouldn't be the case, but that's in general how the cardclub is ran.
As far as the hands I played, I didn't really play many hands besides those. I think I had a bad ran of cards and just kept folding, but at some point I had to make a move to avoid being blinded out, which in fact is what happened at the final table.
As far as the add-on, I think I made a mistake for not taking it. As it turned out, I could've had an additional T3000 or T4000 from that additional T1000 when I went all in with my AK7 and flopped trips. That might've been the difference down the road at the final table.
Thanks for your comments, as always very instructive.
Carlos
Played again at the Foxwoods Tuesday night NL HE tourney.
Guy sits down on my right hand side, never seen him before. He starts asking some questions about the format, so I politely answer his questions, and offer some further information that he hasn't asked for. He seems like a friendly enough guy, though he doesn't play that well.
It's near the end of the rebuy period, and I have just about T305, which is less than the T400 I've paid for. I've mostly been folding, and occasionally winning small pots, but not enough to stay even.
Blinds are 10,15. UTG limps, guy on my right (GOMR) limps, I raise to T75 with AKo. Everyone folds except the limper and the GOMR. Flop is AKT. Check, check, I bet T100. Limper folds, and GOMR check-raises all-in. He's counting out his stack, and I tell him not to bother, he has more than me, and can only win T230 from me (and I also say call, of course). He says "Darn, I just wanted to get out of here. And you seemed like a nice enough guy to give it to." The dealer gives him about T100 in change from his stack, and deals out the hand. I win, and GOMR shows me 6d4d (and only one of those cards on the flop was a diamond).
GOMR says "I really do just want to get out of here." So I tell him that he could just raise all-in every hand, and he'll either go broke quick, or he'll break the rest of us and win the tourney in half an hour. He says that sounds like a good idea, and goes all-in the next hand. I call with QQ. Everyone else folds. The flop is Q82, all spades. I show him my hand, and say "I hope that's a good flop for me." GOMR looks at his cards a couple of times, doing so in a manner that allows me to see them, and says "That's good. I can't win." He then mucks his hand. One of his cards was a spade, so he was definitely drawing live. I think he wanted out of there so bad that he threw away his hand, even knowing that he had a decent shot at winning.
I then went on to start growing my stack quite well, mostly due to some bad calls by other players. I then ran into a very loose, aggressive chip leader. He's a regular here, and he's amazingly lucky (IME). I raise preflop 3 times with legitimate stealing hands in late position (e.g., AQ, 88, and AJs), and each time he comes over the top all-in, and I have to fold. In any event, I am now short-stacked. I manage to work my stack back up a bit until I am just slightly below average with 22 players remaining. I then raise in early position with JJ. The blinds are T100/200, with a T20 ante. I make it T600, and have T1300 left in my stack. Another loose player calls from the small blind, everyone else folding. Flop is 247 rainbow. He hesitates a bit, then says all-in. He has a lot more than me. I call instantly, and turn over my JJ. The turn is a K, the river an A, and he shows ATo. He tried to give me his chips, but unlike the GOMR, he forgot to muck his hand before the river was dealt.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
COLLUDER;-)
I think GOMR passed the curse on to you. You just lasted longer, but should have went home earlier.
i think having a friendly fun attitude and helping people without costing yourself alot is a good way to be. also it makes your time spent there more fun. now if you could only break your obsessive keno habit you may someday get ahead in the world.
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Vince the soup's ON!!!
I just read a player almost folded AA in a no-limit tournament. I wonder if this may be correct at the final table?! Your last chips are quite valuable. If the second stack always folds to the big stack then he has an excellent chance of winning second prize. But if he calls then he has a lesser chance at first prize. Consequently the tourney leader can aggressively raise all-in from early position. It's like playing "chicken". The early big stacks can aggressively raise because it is suicidal to challenge each other. Since their extra chips are less valuable than their opponents', the large stacks get better deals knocking out the small stacks than challenging each other. But the small stacks can't fold every hand; eventually they must take a stand. So it becomes a "pick on cripples" game until the large stacks challenge each other in a big crap shoot.
The small stacks start playing chicken also because they fear being blinded out. Here's an example from the past Saturday's No Limit tourney at Commerce.
We're down to final two tables. The smallest stack at our table bets all in. He has about half the chips I do. I have QQ and raise all in. I want it heads up with him because I'm thinking he has an average hand, but has just decided to make a stand. I'm right, he has QJ. Against my QQ, I couldn't ask for better. Well, of course, the flop is JJx and now I'm the short stack.
I don't think he would have played that hand had he not been short stacked. So, it's not just the big stacks playing chicken.
JohnnyD
I won my first Paradise Poker tournment last night. It was a single table tournment and I would like comments regarding one of the decisive hands. The situation is as follows: Blinds 200/400. Top three players get paid. Player 1, SB, 600; Player 2 BB, 900; Player 3, 2,900; Player 4 (ME) 1600; Player 5, 1900.
I catch AKo. Player 3 bets, I raise, all fold to #3 who calls.
Flop is K x x. Player 3 bets, I raise, he calls.
Turn and River are blanks. I bet each street and #3 calls. He turns over KJs and I win.
Should player #3 have raised initially? What should I have done if he had initially raised (at this stage of the tournment the Big Stacks should avoid showdowns with each other and focus on eliminating the small stacks, right?). For this stage of the tournment, did I play this hand too strongly (i.e., better to just call preflop)?
After this hand, Player #3 lost a hand to one of the small stacks and then was knocked out the next hand. That small stack then went on to finish second. I stayed in the lead to the end.
Steve,
What you say is basically correct and you are thinking about the right things. However, with 5 players and about 8000 chips in play if my arithmetic is right, you have an average stack rather than a big one. Re-raise pre-flop if he raises and you reckon you're winning. The rest of your play is fine.
The "large stacks avoiding each other" would come more into play if, say, two of you have 3000 and the other three have 500 each. Even so, only 3 places are paid and presumably 3rd prize is quite small, so there's nothing very wrong with pushing your edge if you're in front here.
Andy.
First, are the blinds 200/400, or are the limits 200/400? If the former, you shouldn't have had any chips to bet the turn and river, you would have been all-in on the flop raise. While it's not critical to this hand, it is usually critical for the analysis of a tourney hand.
You're 5-handed. Even if he raises in front of you (which he should have done, or folded), you can't give up AK here. If you're going to play that tight to try and coast into the money, you will succeed at times, but you will almost never win, and that's where more of the money is at. Raise or reraise this hand preflop, and be prepared to go to the river even if you don't improve. You don't have to go to the river, but you need to be VERY sure you're beat before folding (since the pot is already so big compared to the rest of your stack).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
OOPS! The limits were 200/400, the blinds were 100/200. Thanks for the comments.
You played the hand perfectly; I don’t think there is any close alternate to any of the decisions you made.
Whether Player3 should have raised UTG with KJs is (very) slightly more debatable.
With the blinds at 200/400 I think it’s a clear raise, and I am bet/raising until I am all in.
With the blinds at 100/200 then folding is less ridiculous, but still wrong IMHO, at least a third of your chips are going during the next pass through the blinds. An important consideration in this sort of situation is often ‘when are the blinds going up?’.
If it was the first hand of the tournament, and every one folded to me with five players following I would fold.
Andy’s spot on about when the big stack avoidance theory starts to apply.
Paradise Poker is now offering single table tournaments. Buy ins range from 10+1 to 100+9, 10 players per table. First pays 50%, 2nd 30%, & 3rd 20%. Each player starts w/ T800, at 15-30 limit. The limits increase every 10 hands.
I've been very sucessful at live games, but haven't played many tournaments. I just don't like the idea of spending several hours in a tourney, to finish just out of the money, when I could have been making money in the ring games. These, however, don't even last an hour, so they seem more up my alley. Perhaps after some experience here, I'll like my chances at a larger tournament more, and start playing in them more often.
So far, I have played in four of these "events". I won one of them, but didn't make the money in the other three. When nobody in the pot was short-stacked, I just played my best ring game strategy, but played more conservatively in situatons that seemed "break even". I open-raised allin with as little as K9s preflop, when I was in danger of being blinded out, and kept in mind that other short stacked players would be playing weak hands aggressively. I know that I should attack small stacks, and avoid larger stacks, but very few hands came up where I wasn't either clearly ahead, or holding total garbage, so this really hasn't been a factor for me yet. I really never had a strong draw, so I don't know how I would have played one. Early on, I suppose I would bet & raise for value with a nut flush draw, but I'm not sure how I would handle it once stack size becomes more of a factor.
Luck definately plays a much larger role here than in a live game, (especially with the quick raising of limits), but clearly, the good players will get the money over time. There seems to be more "dead money" in these tournaments then there is in live online games.
Can anyone offer advice, or links to advice, on adjustments I can make for this type of tournament?
Thanks, B$
I played in about six of these tourneys. I came in second once and finished out of money the other (average finish is 5th). My last two tourneys I won a total of 2 hands, but anyway..
I agree with you that you play your best ring game early on. I tried to see the flop as cheaply as possible with drawing hands to build my stack early. Starting low as the levels increase is really death, cause you play catch up the whole time.
I think if you are ahead, with say 5 people in the hand, and get a decent hand (such as KQs), you might want to just fold it and let the other players duke it out. You'll get sucked it with a player who calls all-in and might end up giving him most of your chips. Once you get past level 5, if you have under 1000, you basically will have to commit to one hand and go all-in, making it more luck based like you said. It's very intense, and fun, but a little too much for my heart. I never played in tourneys before so it was an experience. :)
Also, when you are in the big blind and get faced with a blind stealer who raises, you should either raise of fold. Calling is the worst thing you can do. Then pump it after the flop if you think he has nothing.
Roosh
I have played in 3 of these tournaments and 5th was my best finish. There seems to be some poor players who are playing almost anything with lots of raising. It seems the only way to win is to get in and mix it up and hope the cards come. In two of the games the wildest player in each one, won the tournament. These seem to be really a shoot out. Obviously, good play helps a lot, but there is much more luck involved than in a ring game or in a tournament where there is a longer period between the increase in the blinds.
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
I might have to disagree with the luck issue here.
Disclaimer: I have not played in these things.
It is my understanding that the blinds are raised every 10 hands. In a typical 1-table satellite, the blinds are raised every 15 minutes, and sometimes every 12 or 10 minutes. Thus, in a 15 minute period of limit poker, you wouldn't often get in more than 10 hands anyway. As we all know, there are professional players who specialize in satellites. The well-known Bob Ciaffone often has written about the profit he makes from playing the satellites at the WSOP. In other words, I'm not yet convinced that the luck factor is any greater in the Par. Poker satellites than it is in a real world satellite. If so, then you can make money on these online satellites.
The news of these things has gotten me thinking about actually getting online for the first time to play for real money. While I can drive over to Foxwoods any day and play cash games, I cannot play 1-table satellites any time I desire. And I have a stronger record in these than in any other form of poker.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
These are only limit events. Ciaffone's (and I expect) your overlay would come in nl or pl structure. Additionally, PP is now only running the satellites at scheduled times (4-9 pm on Friday). I guess the high level of participation in the tournies cut into their profits too much.
See you in October.
I am in for the heads-up event, right? I have been on fire lately.
Interesting point, Greg
Keep in mind, that PP tournys pay three spots. If you have lots of 2nd & 3rd place finishes, this is great for you, but if you've been more all or nothing, it'll cut into your earn. B$
I think they are great. I certainly making much more in these than in a ring game, maybe it is just my style, about the size of the buy in per tornement. It appears independent of the tournament size! All limits appear about the same standard, but I suspect that this will not keep up.
Personally I think the faster the blinds rise the less skill in each tournament, but the more tournaments you can play in. Hence the more you earn, and the better overall. I find that they average about 42 minuets each, with about five minuets between tournaments. More if you are picky about the size of tournament you play in.
I think the restriction on times is more a support issue than a money issue. There tournament software is still buggy and they don’t want to run live with it unless they have support staff available. When tournaments are on, they have well over a thousand players, which drops to well under a thousand otherwise. At the moment it is 389.
Im one of the ones guilty fo trying to talk Greg into playing in these...so when he kicks your butt, blame me ;-)
I have played 2 $20 and 6 $10 PP tournies, I have 4 1sts, 2 2nds, and 1 3rd place, and one asswhipping.
So far I like it, the players generally are horrible, especially once it gets to 2-3 left. I think skill plays a major role in what to bother getting involved with, and how to read your oppoenent and get out of the way of monsters.
My Foxwoods tourny experience is just over 60 tournies,and in the money just over 40% of the time so I have alot of realtime practice under my belt.
They cut back on them, way too popular I guess, and alot lower rake/time that hurt the bottom line.
I intend to play in two at a time for as long as they run them whenever they run them, its pure cash. Someone might as well walk up to my front door each night and hand me a couple $100 bills.
Hurry up Greg while they last- Jim Allen
As an addemdum, today I did 5 $20 tournies, got 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 8th, and 1st repectively.
I think these are good practice for limit one table satelites like the ones I expect to play in next month at Foxwoods.
CJ,
Hi, I have seen you play online, and I stay away (hehe) but seriously, your play is very good.
About the tourneys, this is VERY interesting to me: I was wanting to get into my first tourney at Paradise (for $20) to see what it is like, and I was too late, close to 9 pm. I then scanned over to the $100 tourneys and noticed the name of a well-known player (WKP) who has said that he uses his real name. I watched him play.
He passed, oh about 30 or 40 times. I mean he maybe played one BB... I am saying to myself, wow, not too brave, when I realize that the 4 worst players are already gone, 2 others are down to almost nothing, and indeed they both go all-in and lose within a hand or two. Down to 4. He hasn't 'played' yet. He has about T4-500, other player has T500 or so, and each other player has about T3500 (total is T8k). He and other short stack are now pretty much forced in on one hand, and yes, WKP gets lucky and his A high wins. He has played one hand and he has assured himself of 3rd place. He then gets very aggresive, he goes from T800 or so up to T3000....and he is now playing for 1st or 2nd when one of the other people loses their chips... he then takes down 2nd place on a showdown when the blinds are very high.
Worth watching. I do not have this discipline ALAS.
Mark
Its definitely a patience thing, if you get too anxious and play soso hands you can die off early. I dont think I play more than 10-12 hands total between the start and the last 3-4 players point. Same goes for real life, the last nolimit tourny at Foxwoods I placed in the money on (2nd) I played maybe 8 hands, out side an occasional blind worth defending, before the final table, thats 8 in 3 hours.
I stick to high cards, good suited Aces, occasional pocket pairs depending on how big and position. Every once in a while a suited connector in late position when the "limping light" is on.
If there's heat ahead of me, JJ-AA AK/AQ thats it, anything else gets folded.
Im looking forward to doing some $100 PP tournies, but haven't built up the confidence yet. Same goes for real life, I need to rack up a bunch of satelites before I do any big tournies at Foxwwods WorldPokerFinals, I wont spend any real cash money on them.
Jim,
I think you've hit the nail on the head: In another site's tourney I got up to more than double the Tourney buyin and there were only about 6 left (paying top 3 or 4). I could have (and should have) just folded and folded anything but AA or KK until I played against a shortstack, or at least until comfortably in the money.
Instead -- with AK I think -- I got involved with top pair against a low set and got killed. So impatient and stupid, I could not believe I had done this.
Watching Mr. Well Known Player was quite the treat...
Mark
“Down to 4. He hasn't 'played' yet.”
Yup way to go. Play on Auto Check/Fold for first two thirds, then Auto Bet/Raise for last third.:{)}
I’ve had several tournaments were I have passed for about half an hour or so, forced to go all in PF when down to about 300T or so with something like Q9o, and busted out in 4th or 5th place. Still only need to get lucky this once and I’m right in with a shot of the money. Sometimes I’ve even had a hand I feel I can play before this!
The few times I have broken ranks, and played a marginal hand early I have regretted it.
Mark,
Good post.... I think I've been the tightest player at the table in most of these tournaments. Hand that are, well, marginal, I play, well, sometimes. In ring games these marginal hands break about even. In the tournaments I've been playing them less frequently, but still on occasion. Perhaps I'd be better off just not getting involved.
But how long do you wait it out before you say "well, I've got an A4o, and its the best hand I'm going to get before I get blinded out?
B$
B$:
Hi. I have watched this same guy now get 1 1st, 1 second and 1 3rd, i have only watched him 3 times, so I wish I was this good. The strategy appears:
- play only very strong hands in the full game - play only very very strong flops when on the bb. (I do not think I have seen him call in the SB yet) - try to keep it at T500 or more while people are beating each other's brains out and eliminating each other. - if you are low stacked with 4 or 5 left, you need to make a stand.
(I played in a different kind of tourney last month. I was in this exact position: low stack 4th or 5th. I made a stand against another low stack, I had an A and I won. I came in the money.)
- if you are medium/high stack with 4 or 5 left, continue as above, playing tight, let the others get 4th and 5th.
Once you make the money (1-3) then the stakes will be so high that your game needs to change completely. This part is obvious, anyone who has bothered to read down this far knows what I mean.
Mark
Thanks, Mark
I thought I was playing very tight, but perhaps not tight enough...
B$
No Limit Tournment, standard payout for 10 places, approximately 70 starters. We are down to two tables, with six and five players, respecively. We are playing hand for hand. Blinds are $200/400. While play has generally tightened up as we near the money, there are still several players who are playing somewhat loosely and could go at any time.
One of these aggressive players opens UTG for $1200. I have played with him before and his raise in this position does not necessarily indicate a strong hand. He has a fondness for raising AXs from an early position. I am in the BB with $2000 left after after posting. This leaves me with smaller than average stack at my table. All fold to me and I pick up AKo, should I call, raise or fold? It is unlikely that any raise I can make will get him to fold as he has approximately $4000-$5000 in front of him. It is also very likely that I can slip into the money without playing another hand.
Thanks, Calvin
Can you tell us how many chips are in play total, so we can gauge therefrom your chances of finishing 1-3 (whether you fold or play here). Also, what does each place pay? Also, how important is it to you to get some money back, as opposed to simply maximizing your EV in the given situation?
If you are super-short-stacked relative to the field, my tendency would be to fold. This is because even if you win here, if that still leaves well behind the average stack, your chances of moving up to a really high paying spot are still not that good. Thus, why not inch into some money before taking extra risk?
However, if you double up here and thereby become a chip leader, I would play this hand. Winning here will let you finish the hand with T5,000, as opposed to T2,000 for folding. Since this will add so much to your chances of winning, it is probably a good risk.
If I played this hand, I would call or raise, depending upon one main factor. Do I think it's more likely that this guy has Ax or a small-to-medium pair? If I think he has Ax, I want to raise all-in now as a big favorite. If I think he has a pair, then I want to call now, and then bet the flop no matter what comes, so as to convince him that his what-is-now-an-underpair is no good, and he will fold the better hand. The only exception would be if the flop hits me good, in which case I will try to trap him and get all his money in the pot. Depending upon the player, that might mean betting or checking the flop (and maybe the turn and river too).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg - This happened sometime ago so I can't give you exact figures you requested. However, the main reason I posted this hand was because of the better's tendency to raise with relatively weak holdings. I wanted to know what more experienced tournment players would do if their judgement was that the UTG better held less than a premiun hand. Would they act on that judgement or would they repect the raise based on the better's early position. Had he been a rock, I would have mucked.
For the record he did have A6d and he did make a flush which is probably why this hand has bothered me for so long. I think that you confirmed that my play was sound even if it did turn out badly for me. $5000 in chips would have been enough to make a run at one of the top three positions.
Thanks, Calvin
You played it right. It was a no-brainer. 6-10th places don't pay shit in these tourneys. I don't even consider placing in these small buy-in ones until it gets down to four-five handed. I don't play five hours for $70.
Bad beat.
IF you are right about his playing Ax from early positions you may be right to push all in. A call here leaves you with $800 but you want more chips for the final table. I think you need to eigther push in or fold - I push it in here and see all 5 cards.
Hope you doubled through.
...it was small, one of those 10+1 tournaments on paradise, but i was really excited to win.
I started out with 800 tournament chips, built it to around 1200 in the early rounds, stayed about there until about 4 people left, then the deck just ran over me. I got AJo, AQo, AKo on consecutive hands and put the other 3 players all in. Types fun!
I don't what kind a record this is, but I've now played in 6 of them, with a 6th, 2 5ths, 2 4ths, 3rd, 2d, and 1st. I'm really enjoying the tournaments. I think that most of the players don't realize that the hand values change as you get shorthanded and play really tight-weak toward the end. In the second place i got, the guy folded my big blind to me 5 times in a row. I went for a steal on the button with 9jo and ran into his kqo, which put me all in before the flop.
If I were reraised with 9jo on the button heads up with a small number of chips left, should i fold?
Well done. If you are getting 4-1 or more from the pot you should call with anything with your (or his) last chips. I raised last night with 94 on a steal and was re-raised. He only had 7000 more to put in, and after his bet there were 31000 in the pot. I call. As long as he doesn't have an overpair, which is pretty unlikely, it's fine. As it happened he had AQ which held up but the call was still right.
Andy.
must be some kind of record if you placed eight times in six events
doh!
xxx
well, i sure enjoyed it. Probably doesn't mean as much as your world series bracelets, but I thought it was a hoot! But, then again, I'm not particularly interested in in 'counting', whatever that means.
I was playing the other day, ahh, forget the details...let me just tell you the hand.
NL hold'em There are 4 others players at the table... I held QQ mid position. UTG bets, 2 folds, I raise, another fold, and UTG reraises.
Now this opponent is a loose opponent, he'll play any suited cards, anything connected above 9-10 or higher, if he has an ace and anything or a rag he'll bet and raise. I am pretty sure he doesn't hold A-A, K-K, or prolly not J-J(with hands like those he'd raise me all in, he did it to other players)
I decided to reraise all in. I had a short stack, 2nd lowest at table...he had about double me. HE calls and flips over 9-9. Sweet, I knew I was the preflop fav.
Flop comes 9-10-4 rainbow. Well, that sucks...Turn is a Q. Yes, the loose weak player is getting what he deserves finally.
River is a 9
hmmmm... This upset me, but oh well, cards are cards. I out played him...And was about 80% confident I had the best hand. Should I have reraised all in preflop? Even if I called I would of been bet all in on the flop by him. Strange hand...
I heard as he continued he kept playing medicore hands and eventually lost.
-DP
nice bit of whining.
Just making sure i made the right move for future reference... yah a little whinning
You did the right thing, at the right time, against the right player. You just got out drawn - remember it is the decisions you make at the time you make them the draw didn't turn your fine play into a pile of crap it is just the run of the cards that bit you on the butt.
When playing no-limit judgement of your opponents play is usually the deciding factor. I think you played it fine. Your opponent got a lucky flop. Approximately seven out of eight times you will win in this situation.
Final table 49500 chips in play, seven players left blinds 200-400 ante 50 .I have 4500 in chips post small blind chip leader approx. 12,000 in chis under the gun makes it 2000 comes every one folds ,I muck pocket sevens ,my friends atthe table tell me this was abad play.Blinds are now 300-600,75 ante ,I now have approx.3500 inchips post big blind everyone passes to button he makes it 2200 to go , I have pocket sevens This time I go all in he calls with Q,10 flops a straight.I think I played these hands correctly ,by the way 5 diamond club players at final table.
Neither play is clearly wrong, nor clearly right. Both are very debatable, and depend mostly upon the opponent.
In the first case, what are the chances that the chip leader would fold if you had raised all-in preflop? I would guess most players wouldn't fold here, as your raise would leave him with 3:1 odds. But, if there was a reasonable chance he would fold, and a relatively small chance that he holds an overpair, then raising is probably the better play. If there is no chance that he will fold prelop, then raising is only the better play if you are playing to win. To maximize your average monetary return, the fold is then probably best.
In the second case, it seems clear that your raise cannot make him fold. He's getting way too much in the way of odds. That doesn't mean you shouldn't raise, just that you'll only win in a showdown. What about calling preflop, then betting the flop? How many hands might he lay down if you do that? And I do mean that you should bet every flop unless you flop a set and WANT him to call. If the flop is AKQ, a flop you hate, you still bet out, because you're hoping he folds a hand like 99, even though he'll probably call with hands like Q9, hands that might have checked it down to the river with you.
Always consider all of your alternatives.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hy,
I would certainly tend to fold the first hand. Even if the raiser's standards are a bit loose, just remember that whether he has AK or JT you are 50-50, and whether he has AA or 88 you are in big trouble. Unless you think there is a real chance he has a card 6 or lower in his hand the fold can't be wrong. It's got to be unlikely that he would pass to your all-in raise I would have thought.
The second is more marginal and depends on your perception of the button player, and indeed his perception of you. Is he a frequent stealer ? Does he think you can be knocked off a hand too easily ? You could make a case for all three options, I wouldn't have considered a call in the past but Greg makes a very good case for calling and betting the flop as he has before.
Personally I would always prefer to make my move as the first raiser. This gives you an extra chance to win the pot and stay in the tournament if everyone folds. When chips are deeper, a medium pair is a horrible in a raised pot unless the chips are so deep that you can call for 10% of your stack (and his) hoping to hit a set.
I have to love it when people in my game start over-playing medium pairs. On Saturday this guy called UTG, I raised on the button with AKs and he re-raised. I called because he is a bit erratic and I didn't have many chips. He turned over 99 ! How horrible is that !?
Andy.
The main reason I made the move in the last hand was, my chip count it was costing 1250 around and 7 handed they were coming around quickly.I had 3500 left and thoght the button was on atotal steal.Even though it would not have worked in this situation,my opponent flopped a straight,I like greg's advice of waiting for theflop.I have done this in the past and find that you may get called preflop but it is rare for some one to call abig bet when they dont hit the flop.
Early stages of a big NL HE comp.
I have trebled up.
Blinds 100-200...... im the BB
early position makes it 700 to go.
late position makes it 2500 to go.
I have AKo in the BB.... both the raiser and reraiser have roughly the chips they started with.
I have no info of early position player, but know the reraiser is a very aggressive and successful NL HE player.
Should I push all in, flat call or muck?
(im ashamed to admit i mucked :( )
Cheers,
Keith
I think mucking can't be too far wrong. The only reason I would consider calling is that you have 3 times their stacks, so you can maybe afford to gamble a little here.
I must admit I usually muck in these situations - I don't mind making big bets with AK but I hate making big calls with the slickster. It is a drawing hand.
If you have an big chip lead on the others maybe it is worth a squeek but I probably muck.
I probably muck to the second raiser. I will push in against a much smaller stack against one raise and make him make a decision all his chips because it's likely that you have him beat, but the second raiser either has the same hand or a buried medium/high pair. Not something I want to get tangled up with. I'd wait for a better spot to jam them. IMHO
How much do they have?
I mean, we know that you have 3 times what they have, but what fraction of their stack does T2500 represent?
If this is half their stacks, then the second guy is pretty much pot committed, and you aren't going to win this hand by making him fold now (unless he's on a total steal with garbage, and even then he probably calls as a dog). If this is 1/4 of their stacks, then your all-in rereraise may win right now. They are unlikely to call with anything less than KK.
So, what are the chances that one or both of them hold AA or KK? What are the chances that the second guy has no pair and worse than AK? Is the first guy going to fold unless he has a big pair, whether you call or rereraise?
You can imagine many scenarios, depending upon the players, where any of your 3 options is clearly the best play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have 30000, they both have approx 10000.
Based on the information given, I believe that this is a case where overall tournment strategy must be given considerable weight and I would be inclined to raise all in. My reasons are as follows 1) Worst case: You raise all in and are called by one or both players. You will probably lose, but are left with double your original stack. Based on your information I would think that you would still be in the tournment on a competative basis.. 2) Best case: Both players fold and you pick up a nice pot which should allow you to continue to play solid poker until well into the tournment, 3) Last case: You get called by one or both and win a big pot. This will make you one of the chip leaders and dramaticly increase your chances of being in the money.
That said, if one of the other players is a known rock, folding might be appropriate. However, given your brief discription, I gather that this is not the case. Remember that in order to when a tournment you usually have to gamble at least once. This seems like a good place to do it with minimum risk.
I don't like to enter a pot with AK as the third person after two raises. I would most likely muck.
If your raise all-in pushes one out then you are most likely a 50-50 shot against a pair. If both call and both have pairs, then you are an underdog. If one of them have AA or KK then you are in trouble.
Ken
Ken,
I'd just like to pick up on one point. "If both have pairs, then you are an underdog". If you mean that you are less than 50% to win the pot, then that's correct. But you [The Hawk] have two opponents and enough chips to comfortable survive a loss.
I haven't got a simulator to hand, but AK is about 50-50 against JJ. If a third player plays with QQ, it is the player with JJ who loses most of the equity to QQ. Essentially an A or K still wins for you, collectively your opponents have 4 re-draws instead of 2 but that's the only downside. If I _knew_ that both opponents had underpairs in this spot I would definitely play.
In practice I think this is unlikely though and I would probably pass against most opponents.
Andy.
I've seen lots of players lose lots of hand and even the tournament on AK. The place I've seen some of them has been in the mirror.
Mucking it to two raises might be a good move. You are in good chip position, why risk it when there's a pretty good chance you are behind.
JohnnyD
I think a flat call is the worst move you could make. If the flop does not come to your liking, you will have to muck. The player that acts first will have an advantage by being able to bet first. What are you gonna do if the flop comes queen-ten-eight rainbow and the first guy makes a pot size bet. My point is a flat call in this situation is a waste of chips. When you hold AK you want to see the river.
If you're gonna muck this hand why bother playing? I would have to be absolutely positive that someone had a pair of aces or kings (most likely they would have to show them to me, ask Rounder), and you usually will not know against a good player. But, consider that since you have an ace and a king it is unlikely that your opponents have a pair of aces or kings. There are less combinations available for them to make these pairs. Futhermore, consider that a lot of players will limp in with aces and kings when they're the first ones in. Lastly, you will pair one of your cards 48.7% of the time you see the river. So, you are getting good odds if either of your opponents call your all-in bet.
So you should raise all-in.
Ignore my first paragragh. I just reread your post and forgot you were the BB. So, a flat call could be a good move as long as you bet the pot on the flop no matter what comes. Then, if you get a strong reaction, use your judgement. But, I think an all-in is still the best move preflop.
I am convinced that skill is a more valuable entity in ring games thn in tournaments, and natrally luck is a bigger factor in tourneys.
I was crusing nicely with a chip lead at the 100/200 level. Down to about 90 players from 226. Player in #2 seat is an asshole, a calling station and on tilt. he has called every hand and played to the river in 30-40% and amazingly he has 2nd highest chip total.
A 3 brings in to my immediate right. I (seat 8) complete to 100 with a J showing and pocket Queens. Seat 1 (ace) calls. Seat 2 a Jack calls. Others fold including an Ace. Three players. I get a 9 and bet 100. Two callers neither gets any apparent help. I get a 9 for 2 pair (QQ99). I bet 200. Ace folds. Jack calls. I figure him for 2 pair. I continue to bet 200 till the river. Seat 2 shows nothing. I bet 200 on the river and show 2 pair. he shows trip Jacks. He got the case J on the river.
He continues to run over people with mediocore cards. he wins the next hand against a pretty good player with a pair of 7's against a pair of 5's and a flush draw. I wonder if he won. There was a color change and I left.
I think tournament is more strategy than skill but skill is an important aspect of tournament play. You need the run of the cards (luck) to continue to progress to the final table but a skillful player can make the money with fewer good hands than an unskillful one.
I know I'll do well if only I don't get any good hands which are sure to bust me out. Cuz I won't bust out with a piece of cheese.
You are judging by appearances rather than reality.
We have all seen bad players get lucky and win tourneys. We have all seen (or been) great players have a bad streak and not make the money in many consecutive tourneys.
Yet, the same thing happens in ring games. It is just less apparent. Winning players usually buy more chips when their stack gets even medium-sized. If you walk in, how often do you see a known good player sitting behind a tiny stack? That doesn't mean he's winning.
Conversely, the really bad players also keep rebuying in a ring game, or they go home. You just don't see them as much where they're obviously losing.
I think that the more skillful players have a bigger edge in tourneys than in ring games.
In a ring game, you can be a winning player if you're skillful at playing at least one game (e.g., HE or stud or Omaha) at a full table. You do not need to have any particular skill at anything else nor at short-handed play. You also don't need to be any good at playing behind a short-stack, nor against a short-stack (since you won't face them all that often).
In a tourney, you need to be able to play the game well, at full tables, medium, and short-handed tables. You need to play with and against short-stacks well. You need to be able to adjust your play to take into account the changing value of chips as you get close to and into the money.
Since their are more skills available for the best players to learn, skill is more important in a tourney than in a ring game, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In principal, I know you are correct, but the perception of more luck than skill in tournament play continues to eat at me.
I totally agree with Greg here.
I think that to be a winning ring game player, you need a good set of poker skill, no doubt about it.
You need to know your odds, your opponents, etc. Sometimes, clowns sometime play accordingly to right play (without knowing about it). An example is calling a raise on the flop chasing a flush draw. Sometimes you got the odds to do it, but sometimes you don't. The better player will choose wisely, the clown will always call. It's only one more bet.
In a tournament, especially a no-limit event, you have more liberty to make your opponent make a bad decision, an a costly one. He's taking the worst of it. This is where the skillful player will crush the opposition. Knowing the right and wrong times to bluff, to bluff raise to call an all-in bet. Make a bad decision and you could be out. In a ring game, you're just a little more short stack.
It takes skill to know how to maximize the profit of a good hand. How much will an opponent call with 2nd best hand? How much will it take to make him lay down a hand? How much to bluff him out? In ring games it's easier for the weak to call since it's just one more bet.
In tournaments, more than in ring games, you have to adjust a lot more. New table, new faces, new limits, short handed, full table, how much to be in the money ?
You definetly need a lot of skill and understanding of the game to be successful on poker, ring game or tourney.
I just think that tourneys offer you the best conditions to become a better player.
That's the way I see it...
theprince00
"Sometimes, clowns sometime play accordingly to right play (without knowing about it). " This happens a lot in tournaments as well IME, particularly the loose aggressive/maniac "clowns". Basically I agree with what you're saying though.
Andy.
ratso,
I disagree with you. The weak players will draw out on you weather you are in a ring game or playing a tournament. It just appears to be worse in a tournament because you lost your chance of winning that event. In a tournament, you can't buy more chips, so you'll be devistated. Whereas, in a ring you can always rebuy and get revenge. I suggest reading Sklansky's essay "Is Your Wallet Fat Enough For Tournaments" in his Poker, Gaming, and Life book.
Furthermore, the larger the tournament field, the harder it is to win. So far, I have not been able to overcome the large field aspect yet. Every tournament I've played in that has had over 200 entries has made it more difficult. The best I have done so far was at the Orleans Open. There was over 250 entries in a Omaha 8B event, I made it to the last three tables, busted out 27th place, and they only paid 20. But, for tournaments with less than 100 players it has been much easier. Like the tounaments at the Mirage usually average less than 70 players for a No-limit tourney, or the Orleans daily tournaments which average around 90 players.
As far as skill goes, the player that can best adjust to the conditions has the best chance to win. This includes evaluation of players, adjusting strategy to the blinds and antes, adjusting strategy according to stack sizes, and taking advantage of players fears (i.e.scare cards and dangerous flops) just to name some of the skills needed.
you should be happy he was at your table,this was a great oppurtunity for you. why couldnt this happen in a live game and if your smart you want it either way!
Well, I've played in 14 PP tourneys so far. After losing the first four, I've finished 1st - 3 times; 2nd - 2 times; 3rd - 2 times. So I've finished in the money in seven of the last 10 tourneys I've played.
Should I quit my day job?
I played 1 tourney and won 1 tourney (a $100 buy in at that). I haven't quit my day job yet.
your day job pays more than most :).
I wouldn't quit yet. Play about 1000 more, and re-evaluate your decision. Your sample of 14 events is not a good indicator of whether you were lucky or skillful.
YES, YOUR THE MAN!
Also keep in mind that the Tourneys just started... When the lowest limit 50 cent games started on Paradise they were full of fish. Flop rates of 60-70% were common! Now they are at a more normal flop rate of 40-50% which is still loose but a lot better... The tourneys may go that route too. After a few weeks they may become slightly tougher than they are now... You should eveluate your tournament game play after more games and playing games in the future...
What is a PP tourney?
Bruce
I gave a couple of these a spin last night at the lowest levels. Won one, busted out in one. I can't really comment on whether you could make a living out of these until I play a decent number at a higher level. I would imagine that you would do well to have an expectation of 1 buy-in per tournament (i.e $20 per tournament in the $20 buy-in event) and so you would have to play at the $20 level at least to make it worth-while, especially as they are currently available 25 hours a week only.
I would say that a beginner looking to pick up tournament basics couldn't find a better or cheaper training ground than the $5 and $10 tables.
Andy.
Thanks for the comments.
Anyway, my day job ain't so bad.
>> Should I quit my day job? Lets see:
Presuming $100 tournies and avg 0:40 mins per tourney:
Prize money won = $2500.00 Total entries fees = $1526.00 Total hours = 974.00 Hourly Rate = $104.36
yes I say quit!
D.
Yep sell off all your holdings and play on line I'd do it for sure.
I think I'll hang on to my day job for a while. I've only managed another 2nd place finish in the last 5 tourneys I've played. :(
Paradise tourney. 5 players with blinds at 200-400. 2 fold to me on the button with JTo. I have T480. I decide to go all in right there. Is this right, stupid, or marginal?
Stuupppiidd!!
YOY ARE DEAD WRONG IT WAS THE RIGHT MOVE
That's the correct play. Since, you will be playing shorthanded against one or two blinds it has an above average chance of winning heads-up.
smart play! DONT BE RESULT ORIENTED ,RIGHT PLAY
When short stacked move all in when you are the first participant with any paint in general.
Bruce
You need to give us more information. What are the payoffs for finishing first, second, third, fourth, and fifth; and what are the chip positions of the other players.
If fourth place pays much more than fifth and someone else is close to you in chips, it may be a poor play. If fourth and fifth pay similar amounts and no one else is short on chips, it is probably correct.
Mason,
50% first, 30% second, 20% third. I think the play sounds right as well (subject to all the usual conditions).
Andy.
The SB was chip leader with about t3000. The BB had t450. It was a Paradise tourney with payoffs as andy said - 50% 1st, 30% 2nd, 20% 3rd.
Right Decision. You will be chipped out in four more hands, and you're only going up against the blinds.
If a player had acted before you, fold. Otherwise, go for it.
The result isn't really important here, I just wanted opinions on strategy because I have just started to play tourneys. The curious thing about the hand is that nothing paired anywhere. The SB called with A8 and BB called with something like Q9 but the 6 pocket cards and the board were of 11 different ranks and no straights or flushes so the SB won. Thanks to all for the responses.
When do the blinds go up? It almost makes a difference. (NB they go up every ten hands.)
If they go up by the time of your next big blind then a raise looks best. You will be effectively all in (T80 left) in three hands. Hence you have to make a more on this hand or one of the next two. (We have enough information to work out that the unknown stacks are about T2000, hence BB is the only other player likely to go out in the next three deals, hence as only three places pay our move will need to work to get any money.) Off the top of my head, I would place JTo just in top 28%, we are only up against two opponents. To gain from mucking we need hand better than JTo by enough to compensate for the two extra opponents say top 20%. Chance to get this in three remaining deals I make it 0.2+0.2*0.8+0.2*0.8*0.8 = .488. Less then 50%, hence JTo looks like a goer.
Now if the blinds do not go up we will be reduced to T280 in the small blind and then T180 afterwards. How much is this extra time worth? Not much I expect, but is it enough to push the EV of folding above going all in?
If you bet and are wrong, this tourneys over quickly, and you can enter another one. If you fold and are wrong you have to wait longer before entering another tournament losing money in the process. I think this decides me towards betting.
This is a hand at last Saturday's NL tournament at Hollywood Park.
I'm on the button with Q7 suited. We are down to about 4 or 5 tables and almost every pot has been raised preflop. But this time we get four limpers by the time it gets to me. I am the chip leader at my table so I call. The flop comes J7x. I have one overcard and second pair. UTG bets all in. Everyone folds to me. It will take about 1/3 of my stack to call this bet, but even if I lose, I'm still chip leader or very close.
I call, putting him on a jack or maybe even a steal since he is one of the lower stacks. The turn is a queen giving me two pair and I win the pot.
He was not too happy that I would call with Q7. A couple others at the table started snickering and wispered something to each other. I'm sure they were talking about how big a fish I am. But I think I made a good play.
Any comments?
JohnnyD
JohnnyD,
Please indicate the amount of the blinds, and how much UTG had bet. Then we can figure out if you made a fishy play or not.
I don't remember the specifics.....remember this was a no limit tournaments. If I recall correctly, the big blind was 100, so the pot probably had 500 - 600. I believe his all-in bet was about three or four times the pot.
JohnnyD
JohnnyD,
That was a fishy play. Now, I'm making my decision based on that you know you need to improve in order to win. Let's say that there was $500 in the pot pre-flop and your opponent bet $1500. So, he's giving you odds of 1.33-to-1 to call his bet. Since, you have only 5 outs you need 4-to-1 to call.
Looks like your math is correct. And in my opinion you are correct about this being a fishy play.
But where I disagree....I don't think pot odds is as meaningful in no limit. I believe stack size relative to this opponent and relative to the rest of the table makes pot odds less important.
Comments?
JohnnyD
JohnnyD,
I always believe in no-limit poker you should base your decisions on what you believe your opponent is holding. I will take less than correct odds when making this decision, but in this case you were wrong.
If the pot was heads-up I would agree with you. But, when a player commits all his chips with FOUR players yet to act, he's not bluffing. Usually, in an unraised pot the first person that bets, especially if he bets all his chips, has the best hand.
mah - can't fault your logic here I probably muck here but JohnnyD is a gambling man and that's why he is a better NL player then I am.
It's NL HE - man to man, mano a mano - odds have NOTHING to do with it - he put the guy on a steal and was probably correct - now if the 7's were the best hand what are the odds now.
Problem with limit thinking in this situation is you can't buy more chips.
Just because you think that the guy is stealing doesn't mean you should forget the odds.
What are the chances he's stealing? Do you think it's 80% likely he's on a steal, and 20% likely he has top pair or better? If so, then Johnny should call.
However, if it's 40% steal and 60% real hand, and the hands he would be stealing with include big cards, then Johnny should fold. Even if it's 50:50, Johnny should probably fold.
Now, we've been told by Johnny that this guy overbet the pot by 3 or 4-fold, so J is not getting much more than 1:1 on his call. However, if he were getting something like 2:1, then he could call whenever he thought there was a 35% or so chance of the bet being a steal.
First, figure out what you think the guy has, based upon his history and the current situation. And don't put him on one hand and go with that, use percentages. You're (almost) never 100% sure that someone has a specific hand. It's a break-down, like 30% top pair with no kicker, 10% top pair with big kicker, 10% 2 pair or better, 5% second pair, 25% bottom pair, 20% total steal. Then, use the odds to figure out the best play, after taking that read into account.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think I made a bad play. But having said that, I don't think Greg's line of thinking is the way to think about NL.
I am very positive Greg is a better limit player than me. He knows the math lots better than me. He may be a better NL player than me also. But I don't believe it's because of all the math stuff.
I'm with Rounder on this one.....I think odds mean little to nothing in NL. I think it's all situational and more to do with stack size and reading the opponent.
JohnnyD
JD, if I only know the odds, and you can only read the player, then you are probably going to do better than me in NL. But, that's not the point.
Just having a great read isn't enough to be great. You also need to maximize the usefulness of that read. To do that, you need to use the odds to apply what you've figured out about my hand.
If I make a big all-in bet preflop in a cash game, and you have JJ, what do you do? You try to figure out if I have an overpair or not. If you eventually decide that I have AKs, you should call, right? Well, the math will tell you that you need to be at least something like 95% certain I have AK instead of an overpair. Your read may not be that good. So, you can't just say, more likely than not Greg has AK. You need to quantify that read, and then apply the odds.
M7's post in this thread is pertinent. Figuring out that the guy is bluffing when M7 holds a medium pair did him no good when the guy caught one of his overcards to make a higher pair. In these spots, it's not just is he bluffing, but how often is he bluffing, how often will he beat me anyway even if he's bluffing now, and how often will I beat him if he isn't bluffing. You need to know your odds to answer all of these questions and come to correct play.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
Additionally, there is nothing worse than making the GREAT CALL with a medium pair or middle/bottom pair and then have the guy suckout on you since he was betting two overcards and a gutshot draw.
I have cured myself of making such tough calls, even when I know I am 80-90% certain, because your hand is still so vulnerable. Of course, if he has enough chips be blown off with a reraise, that's another story.
I think it’s a combination. If I have a feeling for something, it’s usually right, and I go with it (or don't and regret it). If not then I have to resort to mathematical guesswork. If I am still not sure, fold should be the default option in a tournament.
Rounder and JohnnyD are driving me crazy.
I don't do well in a live limit game full of HPFAP disciples.
But I LOVE, just LOVE playing against them in No Limit tournaments.
JohnnyD
I LOVE them in ANY contest specially NL HE.
Hey Johnny at least it wasn't 9-5.
Hey when did you start playing premium hands.
:-)
I considered asking this same question to Johnnys Houston buddies but didnt want to get laughed at. There is a reason why an award named for JohnnyD was given to the person who saw the most flops regardless of position at SARGE 2000.
Randy
Ok, I play in mini-tournaments every weekend at my local casino (which is in a relatively small town in northern Alberta). In my opinion, the staff has limited poker knowledge and I believe that they are wrong on how they deal with the blinds when the tournament goes from three players to two players.
I would appreciate one of you knowledgeable players explaining to me what happens with the blinds when it goes from a three person table to a head's up contest. If there are several different cases for the exact next hand then please explain them, because I don't know the rules for this and I would really like to know. For instance, is it possible to have a dead small blind on the hand right after the third player gets knocked out?
Basically my casino says this: "It's head's up, there are two blinds NO MATTER WHAT, and the button is big blind. Period." But I'm sure this is wrong, and if you were going to make a rule like this then shouldn't the button be small blind to minimize his positional advantage? The casino does not evaluate what happened the previous hand, they just say two blinds and the button is big blind everytime no matter what.
I hope someone can clue me in so I can clue them in.
Here is what is typically done.
Yes, there are always exactly 2 blinds on the first heads-up hand, and for every hand thereafter. The button is the small blind, and acts first on the first round of betting. The cards are still dealt to the button last.
The only issue is, who get the button on the first heads-up hand? This isn't so hard to figure out. Just figure out who should get the big blind, and then give the button to the other guy.
Back to 3-handed, there are three positions, SB, BB, and button.
If button busts out, the BB doesn't have to pay the BB twice in a row, so the SB will be the BB on the next hand (the first heads-up hand).
If the BB busts, the button would have been the BB next, and he still is.
If the SB busts, the BB doesn't have to pay the BB twice in a row, so the button will be the BB next.
Of course, the rules are different everywhere. If you want them to do the above, you should probably talk to them before the next event, long before. Just because this is common in my experience doesn't mean it's RIGHT, in any absolute sense. It just seems to be the way usually done in tourneys in the U.S.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Next weekend, October 7, I will be playing in my first No-Limit tournament. I've played in mini-tournaments where the blinds double quickly but I'm guessing this tourny will be different, and it is No-Limit the entire time. The mini-tournies start as limit and then switch.
What I'm looking for is some advice on how to bet certain types of hands preflop. I don't have any information on the number of chips I will have or what the blinds will be or anything so I'm looking for some general advice. I want to know how to play suited connectors, how to play big cards, like AK, AQ, and KQ. What to do with trap hands like QT, KT and even AJ. Obviously I am interested in how position relates to the play of these hands preflop.
Also, what do you do with big pocket pairs like AA, KK and QQ.
Lets say that it is the first hand of the tournament, you are on the button with AA and someone from early position raises 1/5 his stack, and one player calls. Do you raise all in?
Ok, same scenario, but now you have KK, or QQ? What do you do now?
Same scenario, except the raise is for 1/2 the stack. AA? KK? QQ?
Same scenario, raise is all in and everyone folds to you. AA? KK? QQ?
What would you do with AK or AQ in the above scenarios?
I hope someone will be able to take the time to give me a quick lesson on preflop no-limit tourney play :).
This is something I've always been interested in. How do you correctly play a draw postflop? I've always used the same strategy as in limit ring game play, if the pot odds are there then make the call. But, if I am going to play a single tournament (not a whole bunch over a long period of time), then the odds may never average out and I could bust out on a draw.
So what is the correct way to handle these?
Example: You have Ah4h, flop is Kh 6h Tc. You have TC1000, the pot is TC5000, and a player bets TC1000 into you putting you all in. He then flips over pocket Ace's telling you that you have no outs except the flush. What do you do?
Please describe general draw play postflop as well as the specific example. I will greatly appreciate all of the advice that I get.
Have always wanted to play in a "satellite," but hadn't until the Paradise tourneys. They're great fun and quick!
But I wonder if there isn't a serious flaw in the betting/blind bet level increase structure. The button is determined by high card, as in a real-world tourney. Then, after each ten hand orbit of the table, the blinds and limits increase. The problem is that they increase on the same player every time.
I wondered how the increase was handled in real-world satellites, and noticed that Fossil Man says, in a thread below, that it's based on time, not orbits. Time-based increases would add enough randomness so that the increase would "move around the table."
Am I right in thinking that it's a serious disadvantage to be the player who posts the increased blind first each time? The real damage comes late in the tourney.
Although I've played way too few to draw any conclusions, in the tourney where I was first to increase, I finished 9th. When I had the button, I finished 1st.
A possible cure would be to make the increase after 11, rather than 10, hands. This wouldn't be random, but would equalize the damage somewhat. It would be trivial for the Paradise server to time the increases, too.
Any thoughts on how significant this really is? Is it less a problem than I suspect?
ParmaPaul
Actually, it doesn't always increase on the same player, because once one player is knocked out ten hands is not equal to the number of players. I think even if it did increase on the same player it would not be _that_ bad, though definitely annoying.
I may have misspoken. The blinds and limits increase once per table orbit, not once each ten hands. With four players remaining, for example, a blind/limit level would be in effect for just four hands. If, at that point, you and another player are about equal in chips, but the blind increases (usually doubling) on you, then you are put at a significant disadvantage to that player.
In a "live" tourney where blinds/limits increase as a function of time, that disadvantage would always accrue to one of the players remaining, but the identity of that player would not have been known from the outset of the tourney.
There might be slight compensation in knowing that you will be that player, but strategically, all you could do to prepare for it is to have more chips. And, that's pretty much your goal anyway.
My point is that once the button is determined at the beginning of the tourney, everyone's chances of success are weighted in a way that never happens in a live tourney. What I'm wondering is how significant is this weighting change, and is it worth pursuing a remedy?
Parma Paul
I've played in them before and I'm pretty sure it's every 10 hands, not a complete orbit. Its kept track of on the top right of the screen.
Jeff
Paul,
The blinds do increase every ten hands, not every orbit. As DeadBart points out, this means that as soon as players are knocked out, the sequence is changed and the same player does not always get the first button.
I think this way is best. If it was done on a time basis, a large stack could unethically take as long as possible over his plays so that the blinds increased more often in terms of hands played (if indeed that would be to his advantage).
Andy.
Thanks, Bart, Jeff, and Andy for unconfusing me on Tourney blind increases. I had to play in one today to be sure. All I can figure is that in the couple of tournies in which I lasted long enough for this to have effect, at least once the BB may have moved around to again synch up with my seat. And that must have been the one time I paid attention! Is this what they mean by "heads up?"
ParmaPaul
Good point - of course the rule in tournaments is the blinds don't go up until they get to me :-)
Also when I have a forced table move it is right after I paid the blind at the old table and sit down in time to pay a blind at the new table.
This a one of the really bad beats in poker.
They must've been slummin' cuz it was only a $6 Tourney. I played in 3 tonight, finished 3rd in one (Could've been better but my PC rebooted!) I can't wait 'till next week when my wife will be working 2nd shift ;) More excitement than a roller coaster.
I'm a newbie. I've read a couple of cheesy books I got from the library, but learned very little except how important position is. I played WAY too many hands in all of the tourney's. So did everybody else I watched except for Rounder.
My biggest problem is when someone has the nuts and doesn't raise or reraise. I got beat a couple of times when they had the nuts after the flop, but continued to call my bet. So instead of folding I go to the river with the losing hand. Should I assume since they are calling my bet that they have the best hand? How do I avoid this?
Thanks
PB this was my 1st PP experience a friend convinced me to give it a try. I played 2 - the 1st one I had a juge chip lead with 3 left and my computer took a crap by yhe time I got back I had finished 2nd the other one I got heads up with KGB and he bested me with a couple of hands and so 2nd again.
I acutally enjoyed myself.
BTW - I played the cheapest tournaments cuz I had no Idea what was going on I'll probably move up the ranks now.
Hey PB how did you know it was me - there are a few "rounders" there but only one genuine one - ME - I had to add MG to the handle cuz there were so many "rounders" logged in.
Well I asked if you were the Rounder from 2+2 and you answered yes. Then it hit me that I had seen KGB's name around here also. So I figured it was you.
Beware, I think I was in a tourney tonight where 3 of the people seemed to play extremely weak when up against each other. For example; checking from flop to river with strong hand, folding instead of checking when they should have checked etc... They all finished in the money.
I also caught rounder slumming in a $6 tourney on thursday. He built a nice chip lead (about 1500 to everyone else's 800) and had the table folding for him quite a bit (I don't know what he had on those hands, but he showed KK once), but then the cards seemed to go dry for him. Meanwhile, I got paid off on big pots with AA and KK and built to about 3000. Rounder went out in about 5th and I plummeted, finishing 3rd.
It was nice to finish ahead of him, but I'd never play him for more than 5 bucks, or at a tougher table :)
Could someone post the structure of the $10,000 buy in WSOP tournament? Does everyone start with $10,000 in chips? What do the blinds start at and how and when do they progess? How do the tables get combined and at what point? Any info or a link to the info would be great. Thanks a lot.
Jeff
So, I'm at the Tuesday night NL HE tourney (again). I'm chatting with a friend. He's telling me a story about the PP online tourneys. He was at work, and thought he was done for the day, so he logged in PP and entered a tourney. Then, a little bit later, he gets a phone call from his boss and they need him to do something. So, he thinks that he's glad it's just a $10 tourney, not $100. He clicks the button to auto-muck his hands. Thus, he is folding every hand as soon as it is his turn to act.
Quite a while later he comes back to his desk, and finds a message on his screen. PP is congratulating him on his 3rd place finish, and informing him that the $20 has been added to his account.
So, it seems like even the rockiest rocks in existence might be able to make money in these tourneys. I wonder how long this will last at this level of competency?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey Greg didn't some guy named Glen Cozine muck his way to 2nd place in JJ's win in '99.
I played my 1st and 2nd PP tourneys yesterday and I must admit is was like playing novices.
1st one I had a huge chip lead 3 handed and my computer went wonkie by the time I got back it was over and I was in 2nd place.
Next one I got heads up and went a spell with no cards over 9 mostly other card was a 5 or less so I went out 2nd.
It was more like 95 or 96, and Glenn Cozen only made 1 great fold that I'm aware of. He didn't fold his way from beginning to end and get 2nd. That is essentially what my friend did. He put his computer on auto-fold very early, and still finished 3rd for the money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When it got 3/4 handed he did fold his way to 2nd I'm gonn rewatch it to be sure and post then.
What's your handle Rounder? I doubt we'll meet in real life, but I'd like to meet you on PP some time.
"CrazyJim"
DING!
My wonderful ATT Mediaone cablemodem went on the fritz tonight in the middle of a $10 tourny. Sure enough, I get back on just in time to see I have $30 left at the $200-400 level in THIRD PLACE! I tried but 2nd was just too far off ;-)
I was knocked off with $1200 in chips at the $25-50 level, and they lasted all the way to 3rd, amazing.
Tuesday was a bad day, I got 1st in a $50, and then 8th, 8th, 4th 4th, in 4 $20 ones.
Tonight, I got 1st, 2nd, 8th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and 4th. The 1st was in a $20, the rest were $10's.
I'll keep practicing. When I can do 4-5 and win all straight, I will be ready for the WorldPokerFinals woopeee.
Jim Allen
Is PP Paradise Poker? I played their satellites and got 2nd 2nd 2nd 1st my first 4 times, then failed to cash in the last two. Very fun and good practice. I concentrate on the play better than the ring games where I usually read RGP, baseball box scores, or Two plus Two between hands.
Is Pokerspot holding any pay tournaments?
I played again, finishing 7th. Played one hand completely wrong, so it's my own fault I didn't finish higher. Since the misplayed hand occurred at 12 players, I was lucky to limp into 7th, and deserved to make nothing.
Anyway, the real story was the photographer. You may recall an article in Smart Money magazine about priceline a few months back. The final paragraph was a story about me. The reporter found my trip report on RGP with my priceline story, and used it in her article about priceline. I believe I posted about it here.
Well, the reporter is now at Fortune magazine. And she remembered me, that I played poker, and that we had briefly discussed the tax problems for gamblers (particularly, how unfairly gambling is taxed). So, she's now writing a story about tax issues related to unusual types of income. And I am supposed to be a big part of the story. So, Tuesday night, she sent a photographer out to Foxwoods, and he wasted a good 8 rolls or so of film on me. Many still shots of me sitting at an empty table, of me posed with the regular casino in the background, and many of me playing in the tourney, including close-up shots of my notebook and fossils. So, supposedly this story will be appearing within a month or 2. I'll let you all know when.
If you only get 15 minutes of fame, I hope this isn't it for me. While this is fun and all, I was really hoping for a lot more at some point (nudge, nudge, WSOP bracelet, hint, hint).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Good Luck on winning that WSOP bracelet. Since, I don't read Fortune, let us know what issue it appears in.
No Limit Tournment with unlimited rebuys any time you are under $500 during the first hour. 50 players entered. Usually pays 9 or 10 spots with a standard payout (bulk of money goes to top three places). Initial buy and each rebuy gets you $500 in chips. There is also an "add on" for $500 at the end of the rebuy period. Everyone at the table has between $300 and $1200 in front of them. During the rebuy period, play is pretty loose as players attempt to accumulate a large stack. At the end of the rebuy period, my guess is that most of the stacks will have $1000 -$2000 in chips with the leaders having at least three times that much. (there were 97 rebuys on this night).
We are in the first half hour of play with the blinds at $15/25. Six of us see the flop for $25, including both blinds. I am in middle with A7h. I have approximately $800 in front of me. Flop comes A75r with one heart. Three players check to me. What is my play? If there are no rebuys, does that hange your answer?
Thanks, Calvin
Bet T100-T150.
For me, at least, I typically bet between about half and all of the pot. For this bet in this spot, I could have anything from a good draw (e.g., 6h8h) to a set. This range includes 1 pair hands AK and AQ (maybe AJs).
You can't afford to give a free card to this many players. No matter what the next card is, you may not know that it beat you until you've put too many chips in the pot. Plus, there is a good chance that if you get called here, it will be by somebody with only 2 or 3 outs (e.g., TT or AK). If they all fold, that's fine too.
The availability of rebuys does not change my play here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
fossilman,your good but a check is right here next player may bet and the turn is more likely to give some one a chance to make a mistake
check hpoing for abet or giving a free card your hand is huge
Yes your hand is huge and I dont want to lose it. No slow play with two pair.with 6 people in you can be beat...I bet $200
Hello,
I think all of your posts are great and I'm in need of some help, in return maybe I can help you.
I'm a newbie and I'm bleeding chips. I try to play tight, but tend to chase longer than I should. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on, but I'm still bleeding chips. Thought I might do better in the PP Tourney's.
I have been playing in these Paradise Poker Tourneys with the following strategy. Only play group 1 cards until we are down to 5 people, unless while in the blinds I'm able to limp in and flop a set. By this time Blinds are 100/200 and I'm playing with less and less from the blinds, but still trying to stick with group 1 cards unless I'm on the button then I may play with less. When blinds hit 200/400, and they are coming to me, I'm starting to panic because I need to make something out of whatever measely pots I've won up to this point. Chip leaders are calling with less, and I end up getting sucked out on in 4th or 5th place. I am also noticing that the chip leaders are the ones who are paying to see almost every flop, but fold when they are beat. There are usually 2 or 3 of these who make it to the final four. I am usually there but with 25-50% less chips, which means I have to go after someone(or does it?) I usually pick a hand, usually when I'm in the blinds (this is probably bad I know), limp into flop, and bet/raise on any high pair or better, then if I get called, when the turn comes I go all in. My experience has been lots of 4th place finishes. What strategy do I use when under chipped and the blinds are about to make me seriously under chipped?
Ok about those taxes. I saw FossilMans post about the reporter doing an article on gambling taxes. I may have an idea to take to your CPA. With the new Roth IRA's you pay taxes on the money you put into them and any return on that investment is TAX-FREE. So people have started using their SELF-DIRECTED IRA's to invest in Real Estate. The real estate is held in a trust agreement that says any profit made is the property of the IRA. People are making 6 figures a year TAX-FREE, by investing their IRA money in Real Estate. Why couldn't you do this with gambling instead of Real Estate? You may be able to build your retirement exponentially TAX-FREE. Ok the IRS may not look too kindly on your IRA investment being your gambling activity. So you Incorporate, your IRA buys shares of your Corporation. Your corporation makes money by paying you to gamble and taking 100% of the profit - your salary of course. Yes your corporation would be taxed, but then you could write off every gambling expense you have (books, travel, etc.) The taxes for corporations are much more friendly. You are allowed to take the principal back out of your IRA at any time. Like I said...check with a CPA.
After the above rambling you probably think I'm a whack job, but I'm just trying to apply principals used by Real Estate Investors to gambling. (Trump didn't get rich by paying taxes.)
Please help stop the bleeding ;) Thanks.
Trump may not have gotten rich by paying taxes, but I bet he probably paid more money in taxes while becoming rich than you or I are likely to see in a lifetime. The objective should be to maximize after-tax resources, not to minimize taxes per se (there are lots of schemes that will save you some taxes while losing most of your investment in the process).
Anyhow, there are a bunch of restrictions on what you can do with money in an IRA, and I'm 99.99% sure that investing in a closely-held corporation controlled by you is either one of the no-nos, or accompanied by so much overhead that it isn't economically worth while. Otherwise, it would be all too easy to drain the money out of your IRA without paying the 10% penalty by setting up a corporation to pay yourself to cut hair, mow lawns, or whatever other traditional job you can think of. Or conversely, you could get around the contribution limits by having the corporation charge market rates for your services while paying you a tiny salary. There's way too much potential for abuse here for the folks in Washington to let this slide.
That post didn't help me with my tournament play ;)
Ok I will try to help with your tournament play. :)
For one thing, playing only group 1 hands is too tight. What is the structure of these tourneys? IE how many people at the start? How much in chips do you get? What do the blinds start at? And how fast do they go up? How long do they take from start - finish?
Frankly I don't know how anyone can use skill to win a tournament on line. When you play a tourney you must loosen up a little bit - or else you'll get blinded out. I suspect this is what's happening to you.
You also have to know when to take shots. Watch the 2 players immediately to your left. Do they defend their blinds a lot, or will they frequently fold for a raise? If they fold a lot you must try to steal the blinds sometimes.
If they play too loosely in the blinds, raise with big card hands like KJ offsuit and other hands that play well against 1 or 2 players. But don't try to steal with trash.
Who are the calling stations? If you see them limp in, but the solid players are out, tend to limp in more often. If you flop well you can make some money. If you don't flop, and they are passive, you might make a hand on the turn or river.
Hope this helps.
-SmoothB-
SmoothB, your posts are great and I would appreciate your help so here goes.
PP Tourneys - 10 people start with 800 chips, starts at 15-30 and goes up every 10 hands. Tourney takes less than an hour, pays top 3 places.
People are placing by putting thier software on auto-fold, and if you read the post below he thinks playing all group 1 hands may be too loose. (although I have now seen guys like Rounder play with less when in deep position and confident that the others aren't very good)
I'm placing 4th and 5th a lot. I am loosening up a lot as the blind that puts me out approaches, maybe I should be waiting for the blinds to take someone else out first so that I'm in the money and going head to head. I am probably playing too loose at this point and should only be playing group 1 cards plus high pairs and suited connectors. Then when I am in the money start playing pairs, suited connectors, and high offsuited connectors.
Any suggestions?
Playing only group one hands is ok, but maybe a bit loose; consider folding JJ early on. Most players’ chances would be improved by playing on auto fold for the first four rounds.
Remember that the aim of tournaments is to survive. Don’t panic and don’t get greedy. You can easily recover from T200 or T300 chips, so don’t take chances unless you are about to be blinded out. It’s ok to have less chips than the others, you can always catch up later. It can feel painful to allow yourself to be bet out of puts you could be winning, but the important thing is to STILL BE THERE.
PS: I have played 40 tournaments, averaging $33.6 per tournament, 7 firsts, 4 seconds and 7 thirds.
Thanks for the help. $33 an hour is pretty good! I watched Rounder win a tournament the other day, he showed me some of the hands he was playing. He played a lot more hands than I have seen him play in the past. He played like he was going to win the whole time ;)
Question: When heads-up I know you have to play with less than usual. Is the SB list of hands from Abdul's page a good list of hands to play heads-up? If I'm the BB and the SB raises, with what cards should I call? I assume if the blind is going take down the majority of my stack I have to seriously consider going all in.
Thanks
I am just wondering of the odds I have of winning heads up all in with A-A against
K-K Q-Q J-J 10-10 9-9
A-K suited/off A-Q suited/off A-J suited/off K-Q suited/off Q-J suited/off
How many times will I win with A-A?
I want to know how many times I will win against each hand each time.
88%
Are you sure? Not all pairs have the same straight potential (kk v. TT)... suited v. unsuited has got to make a difference... %88 seems a bit simplified. IMHO
Yeah it is simple but I am a simple guy - it is good eneough for me. If you want a long drawn out series of boring numbers post it to RGP and I am sure Miss Yoon will give you pages of analysis which basically boil down to 88%. :-)
BTW 65s has the best chance against AA...........
1) Aces v underpair is about 80%. It varies slightly according to the rank of the underpair (for straights) and the suits of the cards (for flushes, for example if you have Ac As and your opponent has Kc Ks he cannot win with a flush). Generally an overpair vs an underpair is about 80-20.
2) Aces v A-x suited (where x is anything but an Ace) is about 85%
3) Aces v A-x off-suit is about 95%, as good as it gets pre-flop.
4) Aces v suited connectors is about 75%. Will be higher against high connectors which have less straight chance, and a little higher if you have the Ace of the suit.
5) Aces v unsuited connectors about 80%.
All the above vary slightly according to the exact cards and are rounded to the nearest 5%. More precision is not necessary for decision-making at the table.
Andy.
Glenn Cozen finished 2nd to Jim Bechtel at the '93 WSOP. He was fairly short-stacked, didn't play many hands(on the video :) ), and made two 'good' folds.
The first was four-handed; can't remember the details; I think Bechtel bet the flop, Mansour Matloubi raised w/ nothing, Cozen folded. MM said that he should've just called to 'lure' GC into also calling all-in, because MM knew he had GC beat(but not JB), therefore MM would get 3rd place money. GC said afterwards he had a small pocket pair; unlikely he calls anything. MM wouldn't shake JB's hand, BTW.
The other was the famous hand where John Bonetti fell madly, passionately in love w/AK. 10/20K blinds, 2K ante. JBE-button(~1.3KK), JBO-SB(~900K), GC-BB(~80K). BE limp, BO raise 50K, GC thinks forever then folds sadly, BE calls. Flop K?6w/two spades, BO check, BE bet 50K, BO raise 150K, BE call. Turn Js, BO bet 650K, BE call, BO has AK w/no strt or flsh draw, BE has set of 6s. GC says later he had pocket 5s.
Note that GC then made the error of folding the first headsup hand in the SB, forfeiting over 20% of his stack. Facing a 45-1 deficit, he should go all in with anything and everything, until he can somehow(miraculously) get to 6-700K. Both players went all in the next hand w/o looking, and BE won w/Jack high.
Incidentally, Dick Van Patten's 'commentary' on this tape is truly awful, and they damn near missed the big Bonetti hand due to his blather.
Seems that maybe some folks read fossilman's post about the auto-folder who finished in the $ in a PP tourney. I faced someone yesterday who implemented this strategy--but they were fully present and making commentary on their play!
How do you defend against this?
I am not an experienced tourney player and tried something but it failed. Was my thinking poor?
4 Handed: Blinds are 300-600. I am on button with T1750. Auto-Folder (AF) in in BB, and has T20 after posting.
UTG folds. I have 87s. I raise. SB Reraises! AF folds.
I have to go all-in to call. I fold.
This was on obvious steal raise. I wanted the SB to drop, AF to (predictably) drop. Once I was picked off I had to make a crucial decision:
Do I call all-in and hope my hand holds up or do I fold, and hope that AF's random SB hand does not hold up, putting me in the money? What do the experts say, and why?
Was my raise a bad decision?
KJS
I would fold and leave it up to the SB to take out AF. This way you win what both ways.
If SB wins then you get third place. IF AF wins then the chips aren’t going to an active player and SB has been weakened. You found the only way to loose out, 87’s nothing special heads up.
I think so you need at least a Q or K to be stealing not a good idea to be stealing with an 8 high.
4 players left (3 paid).
I am cut-off. BB has only 5 chips left after posting 200 for blind. I fold, Button folds, SB (who has 2nd biggest stack) FOLDS!
Hmmmmm.
KJS
Might of looked down, seen crap and hit the fold button, had another bite of his sandwich looked up and said “'shit, forgot BB was short stacked”. I almost did a similar thing this morning, just noticed in time. I was in the big blind with some crap, hit fold/check then noticed the button had T(Small Bet +10) and quickly unchecked the fold/check button. Sure enough button raised and shortly busted out :{)}
Were there any other suspicious instances? What was the stakes, $5 game and its possible SB didn’t understand tournaments situations.
When I was watching a tournament prior to playing, I saw someone do this HEADS-UP. It's more likely a mistake or plain lack of knowledge.
Andy.
I have seen some strange things on PP tounreys mostly attributed to bad players not knowing about tournament strategy. I think this might be a case of ignorance rather than collusion. Yesterday I took on a small stack with 64o I was chop leader and had nothing to lose but a lot to gain - I won the hand. It is just an example of experience.
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