When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes?

The only time you should fold KK pf is when you are certain the villain has AA and nothing else. So Hand 1 is a call.

Hand 2 has an SPR of 1. With an over pair, you can't fold either.

Hand 2 is not as straightforward as h1. At that moment I was thinking what hands can villain jam into our 4-bet range, given that we have the K♠ and blocked lots of flush draws?

hand 1. with 5 pound straddle, you're sitting with effectively 60 bb. I don't see any scenario getting it in pf with kings to be a mistake at this stack depth.

hand 2. you bet 75 pounds into the pot of around 210 on the flop, and you have 125 behind. You only need to call 125 to win a pot of over 400 pounds after the opponent shoved on a queen high board , with you holding kings. If the opponent's range has any AQ, you're getting the right odds.

A small correction on your calculation on H2. On the flop we would only need 125 to win a pot of 600 (post rakes）.

Unless we are sure our opponent has sets or a slowplayed AA, I think we are good.

There are a million threads on this subject. Summary: unless you have iron reads on your V, never fold KK pre less than 150BBs effective. Given the straddle, H1 is way less than that. H2, V could definitely "put you on AK" and jam all of his range that is 1 pair plus (probably something like TT+, AQ, with TT/JJ and AQ discounted, but present) and any FDs, though you block most of the ones that could have called pre. Sure, this is often QQ or AA, but there is plenty of other stuff in his range.

Hand 1 no.

Hand 2 no.

H2 is an easier call, with most of your money already committed and a flop spr of 1, an overpair should be fine with getting all in. He could easily have AQ and then there are some other possible holdings.
H1 is a tougher decision. It's a straddle pot so some people would consider stack depth to be 60bbs, which is a clear call with KK. But if villain is a tight, cautious player (e.g. you've seen them flat JJ/QQ/AK) then maybe you can find a fold

Well that's the standard answer and I agree with it 100%, however the thread is titled 'when can we make an exploitative fold' so I would like to get people to share their experience what their 'iron read' is, is it against a known player or an unknown, and how accurate that tell is.

I know it's a call & a call the vast majority of the time, and I was wondering if anyone has ever made a fold here before, why, and what's the reveal.

Unfortunately he's an unknown and I haven't seen him flatting JJ/QQ/AK. I've seen him calling a 3 bet with AQo OOP though.

Do we think there is a tell for the 'AA look', for a novice player, at a low stakes table?

There is no read here except that they come from a demographic that is often open to gamble. That would make me more likely to call here, not less. Your post later that you've seen one of them call AQo OOP is even more a read to encourage a call.

An iron read is someone whose game you know very well, who is an uber-nit. You've said absolutely nothing to indicate anything like this, and your hope that someone has the mystery tell that will let you know they have AA seems really odd.

I'm sorry you lost the hands, but they are bog standard.

I happily call in both these spots.

I'm almost never folding KK pre at low stakes. The situation has to be insanely transparent.

Post flop, sure, we can fold AA/KK when the board just sucks for us to continue.

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H1 all you need to know is KK + 60BB. There are zero circumstances that I would fold unless the other player literally flipped over their cards, regardless of position, player type or whatever. Iron reads be damned.

H2 there are no two pair and you have to heavily discount 77 and 22. Yes, having a spade isn't ideal but there are still more draws than AA/QQ and that's before you throw in AQ and random rubbish. Still a very clear call. Again yes there are times when you can start folding overpairs on the flop but this isn't remotely close to being one of them

Hand 2 is a totally different circumstance, the question is just “does he 3 bet/call with AQ?”. I dont know if anyone would agree with me but it might just be an exploitative check fold otf.

Like what is the guy 3b/calling with pre and then betting on this flop? QQ AA has you crushed, one combo of KK you chop, AK JJ TT fold. So what, youre hoping he 3b/called with AQ and then stacked it off? I dont know about that.

If you check flop i doubt AK JJ or TT bet, id be more likely to consider calling a turn or river bet, but im basically checking down that Q.

KK+ and nothing else*

If you narrow it to KK+ its still a call sometimes, you need ~3.5:1 pot odds.

I have folded kings pre maybe a dozen times. Once I got 6b. The rest were all against OMC who either 3b or 4b only with aces. Need hundreds of hours with them to make that assumption.

Thanks for sharing bro.

Thank you! You got my point. To be more precise, the question is "if V's competent, does he 3bet/call PF and jam on our flop bet with just top pair or worse? We hold K♠ so he can't have AKss, also the Q♠ is on the board so he can't have AQss either."

I have to use some time to think through this. In my current mindset, I am never checking on this flop OOP with our normal 4-bet range, and definitely bet with this hand 100%. I do not want JJ/TT/AK to check back and see another card for free. If in some circumstances I check this flop, most likely I would check-jam.

Reveal time.

The "I am really happy with my hand" tells are not "AA tells." What makes a player that excited and trying to hide it varies wildly. Sure, AA is pretty much always on that list, but often so is AK, the hand he saw someone win with at the final table of a televised tournament, Th8h because his girlfriend was born on the 10th of August, as you saw in the second hand, TP4thK, etc.

Plus, each person's tells are a different in what they mean. Some people get excited about bluffing, some about flipping, and some about thinking they have you crushed.

Lastly, you mentioned absolutely nothing about any tell in your OP, so the idea that we should have taken it in to consideration and it could make folding KK pre 60BBs effective a good idea is ludicrous.

You were being asked to put in an additional 225, which would represent 37.5% of the final pot. The only way you should be folding here is if he literally shows you AA. Just three combos of hands that aren't AA in his range (like half of the available combos of QQ, for example) makes this a call. I'm glad for you that you guessed right, but even if this is usually AA, it's still a losing fold. It has to be virtually guaranteed to be AA. As you saw in hand 2, low-stakes players are not that predictable, even when they are happy with their hand.

That's a lesson most people learn the hard way. For example when they fold a straight on the river against a big raise just to see their opponent turn over flopped trips and proudly explain that they had you all the way.

If you teach somebody to play poker and tell them 22 is the best hand in the game, they're going to play it like AA.