Regulated Market GGpoker.ca Blatantly allowing bot farm
Most low/midstake Ontario players who have looked into it agree something is going on while not all agree with my prop player theory almost everyone thinks something is going on. Also the fact many regs have sent emails to gg about this makes it unlikely they are bots since in theory they are so obvious they would have done something about it.
This is also in a new regulated market that started about 15 months ago. (gg launched 12 months ago) The whole point of regulation is to not allow stuff like this. If Ontario wants a cut of the pie they should do something about it. I think writing this thread will be a lot more effective to bring it to their attention then writing to some guy in Ottawa that has never played online poker in his life. I get this stuff happens on unregulated sites like acr all the time but if were going to let are governments ringfence us they can at least fight for them to do their job.
While you never may have a smoking gun for something like this I think most poker players should have a strong base of mathematics, statistics, and Probability. Say one player plays 8pm-5am everyday for 11 months and no other times that would just be weird but not suspicious. If you have 12 players all doing that it becomes very strange but it could still mathematically be a coincidence. But when we have 12 players doing this and 10 other things that most people don't do it becomes so astronomically likely that they are working together or have someone telling them what they can and cannot do. At this point it becomes a fact. These guys do not really try to hide it I think you will see its very obvious.
I think the best example for this is when a famous Minecraft youtuber named dream was exposed for cheating on his speed runs. Mathematicians were about to conclude that there was only 1 in 7.5 trillion odds he didn't cheat which exposed him to using a mod to change item drop rates in the game. He got lucky on all the item drops if he just got lucky on one or two he probably would have never been exposed. While I didn't want to spend the money to hire someone to back me up this is the principal we will be using to prove they are working together.
Other then that your just going to have to trust the info me and other Ontario Regs have gathered some added info and screenshots can surely be provided
Key Notes
- 1. They play nl100/nl200 sometimes nl50. NEVER NL500 this is important later
- 2. They all multitable 9+tables minimum.
- 3. They dont table select and will play each other 5 handed. If they had the standard rakeback% there is no way they could all do this without going broke. They almost certainly have a special deal
- 4. Most of them are quite nitty and all would be considered quite bad in the global pool. but in a ring fenced Canada site they are all certainly winning players.
- 5. GGpoker has a bad beat jackpot and they win alot of them... but we do not suspect collusion here or in normal play
- 6. Its possible they don't even live in Ontario and remote in. Ontario has the softest mid stakes games in the world probably but you have to live in Ontario to play them.
- 7. All 12 have played pretty fulltime hours since November and non have quit as far as I know. They play about 4-6 days a week rotate days off.
- 8. They are the only regs on the site who play ggpokers allinorfold. The rakes too high and the stakes are too low no one plays this trash but them.. amongst themselves for 1$ stakes
- 9. They make up about 50-70% of EVERY PLAYER during the 8-5 timeslot this is not a minor ring it is a high percentage of the players when you consider multitables
The Evidence
- 1. 8pm-5am est play only. zero exceptions over 9-10 months. Games are easier before 8pm so them choosing only this timeslot is strange. They always show up at 8pm on the dot no exceptions.
- 2. They don't actively play for the gg leaderboard they will stop playing a few hands from pay jumps. (massively -ev) GG rake is very high this massively lowers the effective rake.
- 3 No nl500 shot take in 10 million+ of combined hands. They have combined 200k+gg jackpot winnings . One of 12 winning players would have if they were not being told to play certain stakes.
- 4. Register 1$ allin or fold sngs everynight . This is much much smaller stakes then they play on other tables. They just reg it and it rarely goes off
- 5 Play .10 allinfold cash tables with 1$ in play while 14 tabling 1/2$ tables with 2k+ in play everynight
- 6.11/12 are losing players at aof sngs on Sharkscope but still push the games at really low stakes they should not be playing.( sharkcope included too bad they got rid of that huh?)
- 7. They never waitlist even if all tables are full they will just wait for open seats. This highly suggest they might all be using the same seating script or can only join tables that need a player.
- 8. They Rarely talk. a few rare exceptions (we do think they are individuals) People often try to interact with them and are ignored including sponsored pros
- 9. Run it once. (its more button clicking because of constant cashout offers. Its actually less ev because you can play less tables and ignore the allin so its against the norm for miltitablers.
- 10.No one in Ontario knows any of them (we all know each other. Its a very small poker community we are literally all in the same discord 80%+ of other regs )
- 11 No tournaments played until recently which were all satellites for major tournament that they started at offpeak times and only amongst themselves with the winner going directly into the money for a very high ro
i
Keep in mind while each of these things individually is not that suspicious. The fact they all follow these rules with little or no exception as a group makes it improbable that they are not working together in some way and following set guidelines set by someone above them.
The id's
Rainonme
su!@takemymoney
Tyler_win
ar@na
T_H_E
burrrrrr12
invincible152
doncryingfish
planethack
p@int
ggmasterKK
scops owl
Counter theory's-
I guess they could be a stable but this theory doesn't really pass the test. They all play at hours with less fish and against each other and never during the day when the games are the softest. As a winning player at the limits they play they are simply all collectively doing very dumb -ev things together. You would have to be a very shitty stable manager to run it like this. They start at 8am in china so it would have to be a foreign stable to make sense imo. They could be a stable but they would have to be a stable ggpoker hired to prop up their games.
Its possible they are bots but they seem to have their own slightly different playstyles and personality's and love to spam the emojis 😀. GG has been let aware of them and done nothing making this theory weaker imo. People have played alot of hands vs them and dont feel they are bots.
Coincidence? Na your kind of gullible if you believe this sorry. they are not a small percentage of the player pool. During the hours they play they make up about 50-70% of the total players online at their stake if you count multitables. About 30% of all nl100 traffic for the entire day. we do not have a big sample to find 12 players with these discrepancies but we find it. I think its quite obvious gg wants to win the lucrative Ontario market share of online poker and gambling.
Why they got away with this so long and may still
Small market
Everyone in Ontario is making heaps of money and don't really care
Most pros play 2-5+ play above them and just don't care what happens below them but we clearly have villain's mining out the 1/2 recs and not moving up which means less 2/5 recs
Players think because they beat them its ok. its just really bad for the longterm ecosystem.
GGpoker is quite profitable and generous on rb. They might not want to tap the glass. ggpoker Ontario has no pvi for example. We assume this is because it would be against fair play regulation.
I think there's a small fear of getting banned or targeted by one of the only places we can play online poker. I kind of expected the bigger Ontario names to bring it up.
What can be done about it
As every state/province/country in the world slowly becomes ringfenced and "government regulated" we need to have higher standards of what we allow these poker sites to do. I know you may not live in Ontario Canada but if you allow this to go on when your state or country opens up online poker or makes it geo restricted they will try this on you too. I imagine a very big boom is coming in the states after they see what Canada is doing. Alerting regulators to this by making a public thread is really all I could come up with im sure many people have already emailed them.
The United States will never join the global pool in are lifetime. But they might join the Canadian market or make their own similar one.
This is taken from the Ontario imaging website Im no lawyer but I think having your site ran by prop/bots might be against regulation.
Sorry for any grammar or formatting mistakes this is not really my thing but sadly I don't think anyone else was ever gonna bring it up.
Movin.target writes this:
I will make 80k Rakeback this year alone playing cash games with nl50 as my average stake. the rakeback system is probably better then stars old supernova elite system (no pvi).
And then when someone points out his 10 points are not suspicious and indicative of these players being some form of rakeback grinder or prop writes this
Also this is Canada we dont have what you consider a "rakeback grinder" you need to make like 60-80k a year minimum to make playing poker to make it worth with the cost of living in Canada
So movin.target makes 80k a year in rakeback alone on one of the softest pools on earth, and then claims that 11 people that look like exactly like they are grinding the pool for rakeback simply cannot be doing that because they would need to make 80k for it to be worthwhile. So he's already doing exactly what he claims is proof of malfeasance.
This thread is 1) A troll 2) a low IQ misrepresentation of what's actually transpiring, or 3) a weak and malicious attempt to get these 11 accounts banned because movin.target doesn't like them.
Mods should close this thread.
As I’ve said before, moving target is mostly stuck at 25nl and 50nl while these 11 regs he’s naming are usually playing 100nl/200nl.
Target would love to move up but he legit is just a bad player, so this is just a malicious attempt to get them banned so he can move up.
The actual good regs at 100/200nl have no problems playing against the 11 regs but Target can’t.
So he’s resorting to slander and fiction writing in order to try and get this done.
Thankfully the people who actually have power (OLG and GG Poker Support) see right through his bs
Alright, I'll share my opinion.
First, MoViN.tArGeT your feedback and opinion it's highly appreciated, secondly the mods for allowing this thread to gain some attention, where everyone can form their opinion. Now, as a someone like you who lives in Ontario and plays online poker for a living, this is what I have to say.
It's at sole discretion of the operator (poker provider) to ensure they attract as many within Ontario on their client, and that being said if you believe this "group" of whatever they are is costing you a certain amount of profit playing against them, then your option is to not play against them, or overall not play on the client, and do it elsewhere. I'm sure by now you've reached support, and that's the most you can do. Personally, yes I agree with you on certain things, because I saw a recent example of how a bad beat jackpot they won. Short story, the hand in place was "soft played" amongst themselves, so in the process they pay the minimum rake, while maximize their odds to take advantage of this promotion, and in the process win the money that's contributed from rest of the players that aren't "soft playing" amongst themselves.
In the end whatever they're doing they're also paying rake, and that includes BBJ rake, even if it's minimal, because from what I've seen they're all extremely nitty, and that's also part of "soft playing", and not reaching the 30BB to pay the same BBJ rake normally others do, but in the end as you've noticed they're not taking advantage of the leaderboard promotion, but still winning decent money from it.
The players or "consumers" always dictate and decide where they participate/play, and thankfully because of that online poker will never be consistently in a bad place. As long as there's money involved it will be in everyone's interest to deliver the best or "better" service compared to their competition, and that is why even if one country may not provide a good poker service for its citizens, they still have the option to move elsewhere. If mods eventually choose to close this thread it will be because it's already gotten the attention you wanted, where it's been consistently bumped, discussed, and overall visible to the community for quite a while. The topic was discussed, argued, debated, etc. and most already formed their opinions on this matter (or I hope).
Finally, because Ontario is a regulated market that GG went to great lengths to obtain and maintain its license, if necessary I trust they would vet these individuals through whatever security they have in place, so there won't come a point where they are at risk of losing their license over this matter.
First of all "toughest field in Ontario" is hilarious. GG Ontario is probably one of the softest pools on earth. Also, tf not?
tf not? I've legit done this myself to give my brain a break and break up the monotony
tf not? Sounds to me like you and your semi pro friends are the ones doing something shady when 11 people can't play poker without remaining unknown to you and your booger flicking friends
tf not? Lots of people never move up
tf wouldn't they start +ev satellites at the times they play?
It
but did 11 clones of you do all of these at the same time? thats what your brain is missing. its not one person doing weird things. its all of them at the same time. every day. for a year.
One person doing all of these things is weird and a "rakeback grinder" 11 people doing this is a mathematical anomaly that can only be explained with nefarious intentions.
As someone who beats the site and min maxes rb I can compare what I do with what they do. And what they do not makes a lot of sense for a winning full time player let alone a stable of them. They make collective non human decisions . You said they are "rakeback grinders" but on gg you must know what the lb is. They will stop 10 points from winning the lb everyday. And its not just one of them. ITs 11. The lb is worth like 50% rakeback a day if you min max it. They do not do this they punt it away. I beat them by 2 points everyday which probably makes their rakeback go down like 10-20%. Thats just one example their is countless.
Hronmeer i think your giving a newly formed small government office too much credit. Maybe in the future they will be good but I imagine they currently are awful and we still have to do the police work
Well if you believe people like Kooky these guys couldn't possibly be making 80k a year because they are so bad (we think they lose at 4-7bb/100 at nl200 .
When I was talking about 80k a year I was referring to your 2010 small brain thinking of what you think a rakeback grinder is is not these players. a rakeback grinder is not even a real thing/term every site has an effective rake and you use the rakeback to decrease the rake.
Playing for rakeback is only a way a fish looks at it. On ggpoker.ca no one beats rake so by your definition 100% of the players are rakeback grinders
heres matt roberts year graph tldr he made 130k (-39 total +163k rakeback)
Now the funny thing about matt roberts is he is the last thing I think about when I think of a rakeback grinder. He is a low volumn high stakes player and has a full time job. I have done his volume in two months. This guy goes for quality over quantity.
My point here is to just explain how stupid your point of playing only for rakeback is
but did 11 clones of you do all of these at the same time? thats what your brain is missing. its not one person doing weird things. its all of them at the same time. every day. for a year.
One person doing all of these things is weird and a "rakeback grinder" 11 people doing this is a mathematical anomaly that can only be explained with nefarious intentions.
As someone who beats the site and min maxes rb I can compare what I do with what they do. And what they do not makes a lot of sense for a win
This will be my last post here. A rakeback grinder is definitely a real thing and has been since sites started offering rakeback 15 years ago. You can be a losing player and still make money after rakeback, and some people choose to use this strategy and tread water. It has happened on basically every site since online poker began. As limon and others have mentioned, props are a real thing too and you just brushed that one out of the possibility bowl without even offering anything but your increased certainty as an argument.
Your posts are full of contradictions, and sorely lacking in anything but pure speculation, some of which contains internally inconsistent logic. You say no one grinds for rakeback because they'd have to make 60-80k a year to pay bills in Canada, then you say you yourself make 80k in rakeback alone. You say these aren't bots, but then claim they are inhuman. You say they are colluding with each other, but then say they're all huge losing players that can't be breakeven or slightly losing regs. You say they are colluding on BBJ, but then wave away the fact that with their volume, they're most likely down on BBJ rake compared to BBJs they've won. Then you say no one on the site beats rake, right after you say you and your booger flicking friends beat the site.
Now if you genuinely want to convince a smart person that something shady is going on, I'll suggest a couple things:
1) Offer strong arguments without internally inconsistent logic and contradictions
2) Offer actual evidence instead of just hearsay to back up those arguments.
3) When someone gives you an alternative as to why your conjecture on a topic might be wrong because there are more probable explanations, don't double down, ignore it, or increase your level of certainty. Instead, carefully consider they might be right, and attempt to disprove their counterargument using 1 and 2.
The original name of the thread was Regulated Market GGpoker.ca Blatantly allowing prop players. it was changed 3 days ago after you started posting here once again proving you don't read the information. Prop players are illegal in Canadian casinos and should be illegal on regulated Canadian sites I don't care how they do it at limons US mafia games that's not how its done here.
They are almost certainly prop players and that alone is a scandal but Americans cant understand that so I asked the name of the thread to be changed.
Here is the kicker they can both be prop players and bots at a call center. People have called them "not bots" because they have operators. It might be one operator between 11 accounts but there is a human playing some hands. They will sometimes play me hu and fold 30 straight hands. and other days play decent
I never said no one grinds for Rakeback. I said what you think of a Rakeback grinder does not exist which is someone who wins very small and not very good relative to the pool. That is not me saying no one grinds for 60k because clearly I also stated I do.
Ultimately I never claimed to know everything. I am not contradictory since I don't have a definite answer. If you read the thread you would know there are competing theory's.
The proof is in the discrepancies not the motive and results.
"You say they are colluding on BBJ, but then wave away the fact that with their volume, they're most likely down on BBJ rake compared to BBJs they've won. Then you say no one on the site beats rake, right after you say you and your booger flicking friends beat the site."
This is probably the worst comment you made in the entire thread. I have explained in great detail how they win the jackpot above expected value. if you pay 2bb/100 into the jackpot and your ev is 4bb/100 you are getting more back from the jackpot then you put in. No one beats the rake the top 40 regs have all admitted it. the rake is insane. but we all play there still so ill let you figure that one out. I guess the top 40 players in Ontario are all bad rakeback players.
Update.
Pretty much right after I made this post they started deviating from their aligned schedules that they all did for the first 9+ month. So I would like to say the fact this thread or the entire Ontario reg community pming gg about it did something but we may never know the answer of what happened here because it is likely hidden behind gg and Ontario bureaucracy.
I am happy to report as of a month and a bit ago at the same time their volume all at once came to a crawl where at most they were only putting up 1000 leaderboard points. (before they would be from 3-7k lb points in a day everyday) We barely ever play against them anymore and the games are once again legit
Now the fact they all reduced volume at the same time when we contacted the Ontario regulators is just another obvious sign that they were all working together.
We finally contacted the Ontario regulators about this through a known Ontario twitch streamer at about the same time their volume dropped . We have heard enough of my ideas in this thread so ill just post from are discord behind the scenes his theory. fyi are discord of Ontario regs called them "nitgate"
Funny enough GG poker is now lobbying The Ontario government to move Ontario poker back to the global pool which would be awful for people from Ontario so that's probably the next fight. If this situation proves anything its that the only defense against these scummy bot/vpning allowing sites/corporations is sadly Goverment intervention
I think people playing in the row should learn a bit from this and encourage regulated poker because these shady sites that might be running their own bot/prop player rings aint it. I truly believe regulated poker is the only hope for the future of online poker
zero of the 11 accounts have been on since my last post. In fact they all went cold turkey on the site at the same time reinforcing the theory they were either a prop player ring or working together for nefarious reasons.
Once again the chances of 11 regular accounts all quitting at once after playing the same schedule for a year is impossible to be a coincidence.
Funny enough the likely reason for them quitting is a lot of euros have started remote playing in and possibly making them unprofitable. (ring fenced site where you need to be in Ontario to play)
Hopefully GG has nothing to do with this but that's a fight for another day. (these new sus accounts only play on gg.ca and not pokerstars.ca or partypoker.ca)
What can you really do if you know people are paying locals to help them vpn in or play from their local work stations? It makes a lot of sense they would do this since Ontario games are the softest in the world. We know this is happening because too many unknown accounts have started mass tabling the higher stakes. Its a small community and pretty much every winning regular is a known person and has acquaintances and discord contacts. Infact every highstakes player in Ontario is in the same discord to moderate and warn others of suspicious accounts. So when several new accounts show up every week with no name attached it is quite obvious they are moving or playing from out of the ring fence.
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