Open limping with Suited Aces and low pocket pairs?

Its not a terrible idea to do it occasionally as a way to keep your hand undefined.

I know conventional wisdom is to raise, but ive found that deception is a great tool in poker.

But ive also been told i don't play "right" as im raking in a pot.

For some reason it pisses people off not to raise a good hand preflop.

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My thinking on it is it's almost always preferable to play vs fewer players (especially fish) post flop, so open limping reduces chance of this+removes chance of winning pot uncontested. The reason limping behind isn't as bad I would think is more to do with better odds you have+position.

FYP

What does limping achieve that raising does not, besides giving you a smaller piece of the pie?

Well my thinking is that if I manage to hit my set or nut flush , I will be more likely to cooler someone if there is 5+ people in the pot, as opposed to 2-3.

How would that happen?

Say you flop your flush (less than 1% chance IF you get to see a flop and dont get raised off your hand, which is pretty likely if you do it from EP, not to mention that your opponents will notice the limping and know what you have). There are 18 bucks in the pot and 9 players. What are you getting paid with and for how much? Someone will have a lower flush whopping 0.185% of the time (not sure if i calculated it correctly but it matches with what i found on google) if everyone limps behind, they play any two suited and its a full ring. We get a single stack 1/540 times, if they pay you off every time and you never get raised off your hand pre. Lotsa ifs here, but getting paid off by a lower flush is at least plausible. How do you make anything else pay you off if you limp and then blast for 3 streets on a monotone flop?

If you dont flop your flush, you have about 35% to hit it if you flop the draw, and about 5% if you flop a backdoor (that is, if you get to the river in both cases). How are you achieving that? Hoping that 8 players let you see the river for cheap? Trying to bluff into 8 players? Whats the plan? The more likely your opponents are to pay you off (aka they are loose), the less likely you could do either, and if you can see the river for cheap or bluff 8 players (they are nits), then you arent getting paid off when you hit it. Dont forget that you also have to get the pot from 18 bucks to whatever size your stack is to realize your implied odds.

That was only talking about the nut flush, which can be the nuts some of the time. If you flop an ace or a low set, you can also have a player have a better ace or a better set and you are the one getting stacked.

You could probably calculate the required stack depth and the frequency of getting to the flop (aka nobody has a playable hand) and the frequency of paid off that you would need to make this play profitable, but i dont think it is.

Regarding limp calling vs raising - you need a stronger hand to call (someone got a playable hand and raised) than you would need to open (non-zero chance that nobody has a playable hand and you take it down pre).

Missing the opportunities to have worse post flop hands put lots of money in the pot when they mildly hit the flop.

It depends upon the type of game you are playing in. Most posters here play in games where their opponents are better than average, so open limping early can be exploited.

However in a $1/$2 game (especially deep stacked), where opponents play absurdly less than optiomal, open limping is just fine. You need to adjust the level of advice versus the skill of the game.

Advising someone to play one way in a $10/$20 NL game against very good players is very different that advising player how to play in $1/$2 game. They are ridiculously different games and play very differently.

In lower limit games (or more precisely lkwer skill games), open limping is much more acceptable. It is much less likely to be exploited and the rewards are much greater.

You are on the right track of figuring out which hands play well multi-way (especially against bad players) versus hands that are better against a lower number of players (like one) in order to be continuation bet.

Yes that's exactly my line of thinking

You do realize that the OP is a passive-playing newbie?

? Nice assumption? What is your reply supposed to mean exactly?

It means that you likely don't have the experience or skill level to play in a deep-stacked game and make on-the-fly adjustments against good players.

It wasn't an insult.

I initially read this as "missing the opportunities to have worse post flop hands and put lots of money in the pot when you mildly hit the flop" and i think its closer to the truth haha.

I mean, if your opponents will put their stacks into a limped pot with marginal hands that are worse than your marginal hand, but wont do it in a raised pot somehow (and also wont raise you pre often enough and also wont adapt to you limping only those hands and yada yada), i guess it could be profitable with deep enough stacks. You could approximate if its profitable depending on OP's game (stack depth, types of players, what ranges are they calling and raising pre, what will they put in their stacks with etc), but im pretty sure that this game would have to be super soft (maybe unrealistically soft, although i dont play live so i have no idea) for it to be good.

the more players in the pot, and especially playing oop, the less you realise your equity and the more oppertuity you give other players to outflop you. just raise and play on

When a novice player is holding 10 3 suited, there is a huge difference between calling a limp and calling a raise. Most will call a limp or a small raise. Most fold to a bigger raise.

Novice players are more than willing to shove all of their chips in postflop hitting a flush despite it only being 10 high.

I am not arguing strategy in general. I am just saying that there is a huge hole to be exploited by playing AX suited for a limp against weak players that would normally either be raised or folded in better games.

Against weak players I want to find flush over flush situations. Those are are the ones they cannot fold.

To put it in a better way, yes raising preflop gives a greater advantage to you winning a small pot. You have range advantage and can win most pots post flop. Absolutely no doubt.

However, this is assuming your normal opponents are high end thinking players. Instead, I think it is better to limp and play post-flop for huge pots against players who don't think at a higher level.

Low limit is more about playing for stacks than anything. It is about finding situations where you have the nuts and have an oppenent who is willing to play for a lot without having the nuts.

Tell me you don't play crappy low limit games without directly telling me you don't play low limit games.......

Not saying that it could not be profitable in a soft enough game, just doubt that there exists a soft enough game for actual money.

I play 2nl which is the lowest possible stakes if you play in USD, and its definitely not soft enough to make that profitable.

I think in high rake live environment hitting flop and building a big pot quickly can be profitable. However I think it only works if pretty deep. I also am not sure open limping is best even in this environment

Limping with small-to-medium pairs is -EV and a pretty big leak, since it's just a variant of poker bingo. Also, the risk of set-over-set is real, even though TAGfish will call that a "cooler."

My default now is to just fold small-mid PPs unless:

1. I'm in late position,
2. I don't want to raise, and
3. I don't think it'll be raised behind me.

It makes it more likely there will be a many way pot and keep the money deeper. You get greater immediate odds many way. They can make some 2-pair to lose a lot to your set. Higher pps that might make set over set are not folding regardless. They can also make flushed that will lose big to your nut flush, playing junky suited cards.

In a 10/20 game, this sort of thing would generally not work. If for some reason you decided to open limp in that sort of game, you would need different ranges and strategies.

That is simply not true given the qualifiers of it being a crappy low limit Vegas strip game (or crappy low limit Texas game).

These games are populated with people who will stack off (80 -100 BBs) with top pair ok kicker (say KQ, KJ, and possibly K10 on a K high board). Or will stack off (at any price) with a non-nut flish draw). It is also filled with people who almost never ever bluff or call too loose like with 2nd or 3rd pair. That allows a good player to get really good value when they hit a set with a small PP. It also allows a good player to take pots when certain other opponents miss (or barely hit a flop).

The general rule is that you want to play more hands cheaper pre-flop when playing against opponents that are drastically worse than you. Post flop is infinitely more complicated for them and they will make lots more mistakes on more expensive streets. Small pocket pairs and suited aces are hands that should be added to a giid players range in these situations because they make very strong hands when they hit.

As for worrying about set over set, you either play too much PLO or are a nit. Yes, it occasionally happens, but it is more than made up by the mistakes your opponent makes with non-set hands. Besides, if you are truly much better than your opponents, on the rare occasion you can dodge major damage when the occasional set over set happens. Not regularly, not even often, but just making a really rare read can make a major difference in your long run results.

Again, these are games with really bad players. In a game generally populated with even decent players this changes drastically. I would agree with folding PP early.