1-2 grinder. Have around 30k earned 27 years old. Watch for inverse gestures by dealer .
Suspicious Hand in 1-2 NL: Dealer Behavior and Potential Collusion?
I encountered a strange situation at a 1-2 NL game last night, and I’m wondering if anyone has experienced something similar or has thoughts on what might have happened.
Here’s the breakdown:
The Setup:
I’m on the button with KK and raise to $17.
Right after my raise, literally as I slightly move my hand to put my chips in...the dealer almost in a subconscious manner then shakes his head and mutters “noum umm” under his breath, as if reacting to my hand’s strength. It felt off—like he was subtly acknowledging my strong hand.
Has anyone noticed a dealer doing something like this?
The Action:
UTG calls the raise with A6 suited (hearts), which seemed loose, but fine.
The flop hits with no apparent draw for UTG. I bet $40, and he calls, which struck me as odd since he hadn’t improved significantly—perhaps holding backdoor equity.
Turn brings a heart, completing his flush draw. UTG immediately goes all-in. Holding KK, I call, expecting to be ahead.
River brings another heart, completing his flush, and I lose my stack.
The Suspicious Part/Dealer Behavior:
Before the hand, the dealer was more engaged in conversation with me than with other players, and his reaction to my raise felt like a subtle signal. Could he have been
hinting to UTG about my strong hand?
Player’s Actions:
UTG’s call on the flop with no clear equity and his sudden all-in after picking up a flush draw seemed calculated. Could he have had inside knowledge about my hand?
After the Hand:
When I returned from discussing with security about 15 minutes later, I saw the dealer leaving, high-fiving a security guard as he walked out. This struck me as highly suspicious. Why the high-five? Was it a simple coincidence or something more?
The Investigation:
Observing the Table:
I watched for another 30 minutes while security reviewed footage, and during that time, I didn’t see any players make similarly loose calls. The dealer’s behavior was also notably different, raising my suspicion.
Talking to Security & Management:
I raised my concerns with security and the floor manager, who confirmed and checked the tape recording (I have in writing but he refused to sign for legal reasons he stated...) that the dealer had made a “weird gesture” during my bet. However, they refused to provide any written documentation, even suggesting that I’d need to sue if I wanted a formal record of what he verbally confirmed happened.
Final Thoughts:
I’ve observed this player’s style for a while, and he hasn’t played as aggressively since. The dealer’s unusual gestures, UTG’s speculative call, and the refusal of security and management to provide formal documentation make me feel that something more was happening here.
Given the circumstances, I’m concerned there might have been collusion or signaling involved.
Side Note:
I've noticed that whenever I go to this particular casino in Oklahoma, I seem to get odd attention and gestures from both players—who the casino swears aren’t props (though I’m skeptical)—and the dealers. It’s like there’s this unspoken awareness about my hands or actions, and it just doesn’t sit right with me.
I suspect that some of these players and dealers might be giving props or players hand signals or other subtle gestures. Maybe they’re catching a peek at my cards or there’s some kind of mark I’m unaware of, but it seems like they somehow know when I’m holding a high card/pair... and to jam if a ace or king is not on the board and they got the signal of what I'm holding.... especially in this case if there is money in pre.
16 Replies
What was the flop?
A player calling a raise with a suited ace for $17 is nothing out of the ordinary, even if he floated the flop with ace high. It doesn't mean they're cheating.
If the dealer peaked at your cards, you had kings why would he tell the other player to call with junk?
There is no reason for a player to jam on the turn with a flush draw knowing you have a strong hand like KK and would call unless he also knows that the next card would complete his flush. If you call (which you might given the bet sizing implying a polarized range) villain would be a massive underdog
More importantly it is a 1/2 NL game where players are notoriously bad. Or at least potentially wild.
My guess is that the player was hoping you had a AK/AQ and would fold to the jam. If not and you had a pair there would still be 12 likely outs for a win (roughly 30%).
The bigger problem of the dealer indicating you had a big hand with his action is significant only if it forced the player to fold. Which after you bet more than pot on the flop the player called. For absolutely no reason with A high. Its a particularly stupid play if he thinks he can jam if a heart hits because a heart will come on the turn only 20% of the time. If an A comes and you have JJ-KK you will never call his jam if he even bets at all.
The other significant factor which you don't mention is what villain's stack size was. I don't see why he would call a $40 flop bet with A high and a bad kicker and a BDFD. Unless he had a ton of chips (and so did you) and he wanted to collect on a runner runner flush. But that is not how he played the hand
It is possible that the dealer is a "mechanic" who was cheating on the hand. It is the best explanation for why villain would call a $40 flop bet and the way villain went all in on the turn when he hadn't gotten there yet. Personally I would likely not play again with that dealer (I would take a meal break by either leaving the table or leaving the game and getting put 2nd on the list when I got back). But again it is possible that Villain is just a bad player and it had nothing to do with the dealer.
1-2 players are bad. end of story.
If I'm dealing and start a conversation with someone, I'll always pause it when they get involved in a hand. This is not suspicious, it's being respectful.
I think you're greatly underestimating the amount of skill involved in setting up a runner runner cooler or even peeking at the cards to come AND the other player's cards without being obvious on camera. I'm not saying it's not possible if they're hand shuffling, but a dealer who can do that probably isn't dealing 1/2 in a regulated casino.
WTF am I reading?
The flop was 2 8 5 rainbow x no heart.
I play alot of poker maybe you are right just a bad player who got rewarded from a bad play but that dealer wasn't conversing w/ anyone. The way he reacted and muffled when I bet was odd.
and he had nothing when I raised him $40 on the flop after he checked. That was a hell of a call and jam on turn to get lucky on the river for the backdoor flush.
I already made it back so I'm over it now but it had me tilted earlier.
The flop was 2 8 5 rainbow x no heart.
I play alot of poker maybe you are right just a bad player who got rewarded from a bad play but that dealer wasn't conversing w/ anyone. The way he reacted and muffled when I bet was odd.
and he had nothing when I raised him $40 on the flop after he checked. That was a hell of a call and jam on turn to get lucky on the river for the backdoor flush.
I already made it back so I'm over it now but it had me tilted earlier.
I am confused, the flop had no hearts, but he made his flush draw on the river?
The dealer signaled the player you were strong....so that prompted him to call with nothing?
Are you implying that the dealer set the deck and dealt a runner runner flush after signaling his partner to fold to you KK?
Are you saying that a dealer being friendly with security guard is suspicious?
Are you implying that there is a complex ring of conspirators who are sohpisticated enough to signal and fix decks, but clumsy enough to be obvious about it....and that their preferred game to fix is 1-2?
Meant no diamond** you are right had to be a heart on flop for him to hit backdoor flush sorry a bit tired need some rest soon
After reading what others are saying I agree that there is little or no chance that cheating was involved. It becomes virtually impossible if there was an auto-shuffler.
And even if the hand was hand dealt without a shuffler the point about it happening in a 1/2 NL game is really slim.
So its a player who likely had a bad read on you thinking you didn't have a pair. The dealer only helped if that's the final conclusion of the Villain. Because Villain made a horrible play, you made a great play and lost when you had 70% chance once you made the excellent call. Just a cooler.
The flop was 2 8 5 rainbow x no heart.
I play alot of poker maybe you are right just a bad player who got rewarded from a bad play but that dealer wasn't conversing w/ anyone. The way he reacted and muffled when I bet was odd.
and he had nothing when I raised him $40 on the flop after he checked. That was a hell of a call and jam on turn to get lucky on the river for the backdoor flush.
I already made it back so I'm over it now but it had me tilted earlier.
You bet large which is a good play if you know he’ll call you with backdoor garbage. But in his mind it probably seemed like you were trying to buy the pot with AK/AQ since this isn’t a board that will improve you very often given preflop. Since fish always put people on that hand, once the turn comes he thinks he can get you off it, which is probably true, and that he has good equity against anything but aces or a set of 88.
Random 1-2 player limp/calls preflop w/ suited A. Completely standard.
Sticky player floats on the c-bet. Not a good play, calling an overbet with ace high, but we've all done worse. Still standard.
Shoving the flush draw turn is not standard but not unheard of, either. I suspect he put you on a very narrow range that did not include KK. You're rarely, if ever, folding here.
Random bad player hits flush on river and wins. Completely standard. You'll win more often than not in that scenario, but not always.
The rest is just noise in your head and can easily lead to visible weaknesses in your game. And when players react or take advantage of those weaknesses it will falsely reaffirm your suspicions.
The amount of collusion/conspiracy needed for a scheme as you describe simply defies logic and would never be profitable at the 1-2 level, especially for licensed employees. If the floor and security person were to post their version of the story, how likely is it they would use the word paranoid?
Ultimately, you can't play your best if you're not comfortable so perhaps you need to look elsewhere to get your poker fix. But you'll probably still experience bad players making bad plays, which is all this was.
So you are playing $1/$2 and see a player make a bad play and get rewarded for it, and you are concerned?
If this is news to you I don't think you have played as much poker as you think. The action as you described it happens numerous times a day at most $1/$2 games I have played at. There are lots of players who play absolutely stupid. That is the reason low limit games are so profitable.
As for the dealers actions, I thinking you are reading to much into them. As a dealer (who has never ever cheated), I can tell you that the dealer always has at least a small portion of his mind elsewhere. He might be thinking about what he is going to do after work and feels his phone vibrate thinking it is his buddy so he mumbles under his breath. Maybe he is watching the random low level college football game on the TV accross the room that he has a bet on and there was a big play. Maybe it was as simple as he banged his knee against one of the drop boxes and is swearing under his breath. Maybe he was playing out a fantasy fight he is going to have with his wife when he gets home later. Maybe he was singing to himself. Who knows?
Point is, he mumbled some nonsense under his breath and there is absolutely no way to tell what it meant.
Don't get me wrong, could there be some elaborate cheating scheme going on between another player and dealer? Sure. Is it likely? No. Highly unlikely. Unless you have far better evidence it isn't even worth considering. I have seen dealers risk a $120,000 year job for $25 back in the 90's when $120,000 meant something. Dealers can be dumb and cheat for small amounts. No doubt, but it isn't common and isn't likely.
What is far more common is that a $1/$2 player played bad, got lucky and the dealer had absolutely nothing to do with it. That happens all of the time.
This thread reminds me of a hand I played at 1/2 years ago:
I have AK UTG and raise.
UTG+1 goes all-in for ~$75, and several players call.
Gets back to me and I jam for $400, and MP and button call.
Board runs out and I flop top pair, but the button scoops with T6o when he rivers 2 pair.
As he's stacking his chips I turn to him and in a friendly way ask, "Ten six, really?"
He looks me in the eye and says, "I thought you had aces."
He was broke and gone in 30 minutes.
You're playing 1/2—anything can happen.
FWIW, I don't think there's a 1/2 player born who is going to open/limp a suited A then fold for one bet. The flop bet may be another matter; but still, it's 1/2.
GL
--klez
Random 1-2 player limp/calls preflop w/ suited A. Completely standard.
Sticky player floats on the c-bet. Not a good play, calling an overbet with ace high, but we've all done worse. Still standard.
Shoving the flush draw turn is not standard but not unheard of, either. I suspect he put you on a very narrow range that did not include KK. You're rarely, if ever, folding here.
Random bad player hits flush on river and wins. Completely standard. You'll win more often than not in that scenario, but
excellent post.
"noise in your head", great, succinct phrase.
inverse gestures
😵
