Player lies at showdown / winning cards touch muck but are retrievable

It’s a home game, so whatever the rules the host has apply. If it were in a card room or casino with typical rules, seat 5 would be allowed to retrieve his hand and show to get pot, assuming his cards were indeed clearly identifiable. The “magic muck” rule is no longer used at most venues (although this may vary from place to place).

Probably some form of penalty, or at least a warning, for seat 8 as well for trying to angle shoot his way into winning the pot.

In a casino setting, the muck is not magic so touching doesn't matter. If the cards are identifiable they should be returned to the player.

Misdeclaring the hand at showdown can result in a penalty. Probably just a warning this time since there was no actual harm done. Possibly asked to go home for the night if it caused the winning hand to be irretrievable.

At the very least, table should be informed that verbal declarations by Seat 8 are not to be trusted. If it were my game, he would be on a very short leash...any further shenanigans and he's done (for the night, or longer, depending on severity).

Edit to add: Is it possible Seat 8 thought he actually had a Q-high flush? Like, were there spades on the board but he had Qc? If it were something like that and could be construed as an 'honest mistake', then it probably gets laughed off as Seat 8 needing glasses or large print cards, but still along with a warning to be more careful about declaring the hand.

As said above, it is a home game so anything could happen. The vast majority of poker rooms would allow the player to retrieve his hand and claim the pot since there is no magic muck.

1/2/5 PLO games don't have a huge pool of players, so at best he's going to get a warning from the host to knock it off.

The player who had the straight should 100% win the pot (in a casino or a home game, but it should be more easily in a home game).

I saw something very similar to this is the casino a few days ago. At showdown, player announces "Straight" and tables his hand. Dealer doesn't say anything. A second later the other player tosses his hand into the much face down (100% retrievable) and at the same time someone (not the dealer) says "You got nothing". Player claimed to misread his hand (I know him and play regularly with him, he wasn't angling) and the dealer refused to give the other player his hand back said it was mucked. The guy who misread his hand ended up giving him most of the pot anyway (and got a lot of pats on the back for it).

Thanks, everyone. Wondering if there's anyone out there who thinks differently on what the result of the hand should have been?

FWIW, Seat 8 says they thought they had hearts (still not sure I believe it), but they had smoked a little too much (that I believe), so... LOL.

It would be retrievable but the dealer will probably have to confirm with 100% certainty that the correct cards were retrieved, or the player would have to confirm what cards they are without looking and let the floor grab them. I could see a floor ruling that since the player retrieved their own cards that we can’t be sure that they actually retrieved the right cards.

The muck/burn deck was squared up, so they were 100% retrievable -- there is no way they could have been confused with any other cards.

(Curious, are the burn cards part of the "muck"? I'm trying to make sure everyone understands there were no other facedown cards on the table except the squared-up deck of burn cards and muck cards, but I don't actually know the answer.)

The burns should stay intact, separated from the muck and stub, until the pots are pushed.

A lot of newbies and home game players who don't have much casino experience tend to think that procedures were born from the ether, that they exist for no other reason than for those who know them to demonstrate how smart they are. You can lead by example and use incidents like this as teaching opportunities. Show versus tell.

If you find one who is willing to understand why they are wrong, then you can teach them. Otherwise, have a laugh and move on. We don't particularly care about how they think it should be.

No reason to do anything other than allow s5 to retrieve their hand and push the pot(s) to the best hand. As mentioned, it's a home game so good luck with always getting the best ruling.

KITN to s8 for mis-declaring their hand at showdown
KITN to s5 so believing it and mucking without actually seeing it

I didn’t say they weren’t 100% retrievable, I said that those are some of the complications that can come up as to what the floor might rule in a casino. Not every floor is going to see it as cut and dry when a player mucks their hand very close to the muck and then goes to grab them. If it’s 100% certain which cards are which then awesome, should be no problem. But if we’re talking about how this case might differ from another case, then those are some considerations.

Burns and muck are two different things, yes. Also you might be using the phrase “squared up” differently than I do, but generally a “squared up” muck is not a good thing, you want it to be a controlled but messy card pile that you can safely bury cards in so they are not retrievable. A neatly squared up muck pile would be out of procedure for the vast majority if not all casinos.

I mean what you mean. He took all the cards from muck and burn and squared them up into a neat "deck," except for a small corner of the bottom card, while we still hand our cards. He's a terrible dealer. He pulls in call/raises as they are made, and if you have money in front of you, like if you are the BB, and someone raises to, say, $15, he'll tell you the raise is $13. Drives me nuts. I had to teach him how to count a pot in PLO, but at least he caught on when he finally believed me. Most of them have never even played in a casino, but they refuse to take my advice, even though I've played in 15 states, Puerto Rico, two Canadian provinces, and three cities in France, and I play in Vegas multiple times a year. LOL.

I once saw this play out this way at a casino:

Player A: I have 2 pair

Player B (newbie): mucks

Player A slides his hand forward face down

Dealer: Ok, Show me your 2 pair

Player A: I don't have 2 pair (I cannot remember if the cards were then tabled or not; in any case):

Dealer mucks Player A's hand and pushes the pot to Player B

Nobody complained

--klez

When players verbalize their hand I say, "Show me."

House/Host Rules .. but whenever I'm around a Player must prove any verbal declarations at Showdown in order to get the pot pushed. Yes, it's difficult, especially in PLO to know whether or not the Player mis-read their hand or not in order to assess the severity, if any, of a warning or penalty.

Very difficult to find a Magic Muck casino these days, but I did find a MM Floor in one Ruling .. and my card was face up on the stub!! AND he had the guts to say "Well, it all worked out in the end." when I was cashing out a profit for the day. I probably should've raised heck with a Supervisor but didn't.

Kid was playing poker at a casino for first time on his 21st birthday. He declared a hand and a Reg waited for him to show .. which he couldn't. He said they do it all the time at the Home Game. We all told him that if he did it again, to the right person, that he may not make it to his car in the ramp! GL

What was so infuriating this hand was the guy stated his hand, I (yes, I'm Seat 5) looked at him and asked him directly if that's what he had as he was looking at his hand, which was off the table fanned out in front of him, and he "confirmed" his Q-high flush. I almost always table my hand at showdown, but I believed him. Just stupid on my part. He's a nice guy, but not actually trustworthy, which I should have known. I didn't think he'd stoop that low.

It was a total cluster. Seat 7 kept the main pot and Seat 8 and I kept our last bet. Seat 8 should have given me his stack -- what an ass. However, Seat 7 should have given me the main pot, too. He's actually the house guy -- I couldn't believe he didn't speak up, but the money means something to him, so I get it. He was going to leave it up to the dealer. LOL. That guy doesn't even know how to deal.

I have expressed my concerns and requested that they post their rules and that the dealer needs to learn how to deal. They know if anything like this happens again, I won't be back, and I'm one of the regulars who actually puts a little money on the table -- and they love it when I bring my husband, because he's nuts. LOL.

Lesson learned, again.

/

tthric

People that auto-muck based on only heresy is beyond horrible (whether it's a guy misreading his hand, goofing around, or an out right angle).

It was not an auto-muck. After he stated his hand, I asked him directly if that's what he had while he was looking at his cards just to confirm. This is a friendly "home" game against players I've played with for years, so I did not expect to be lied to -- nor should I have. It's sad, actually, but it is what it is.

And the mucking is not the issue here. The egregious angle shoot isn't, either, although that plays into it. It's that my hand was 100% retrievable. Zero chance those weren't my cards. If the dealer had mucked my cards or they were mixed in any way with the muck, I wouldn't even think about it -- my fault. Player 8 gets a warning, and I'd still be just as pissed at him -- but I'd never expect the pot.

Apparently not.

You need to get into the habit of looking at the hand for yourself, because people can and do misread their hands from time to time. If the player tables it and I still can't see it but the dealer and other players are saying "straight" (I have terrible eyes) I'll also take that as confirmation and muck it at that time. It's a good habit in poker to get into (also along the lines with not releasing your hand until the pot is pushed to you).

It's also about the room having no clear rules, which is what I've asked them for, including for the dealer.

Guys/gals, I know that I should always table my hand or see the other hands before mucking. This was a rare, weird situation.

I don't think home games even have rule books, they usually fly by the seat of their pants in these situations so we're at their mercy with little or no recourse. If the games there are good and profitable we just need to suck these things up instead of escalating it and risk being asked not to return anymore.

I pretty much never have to risk not being invited back for many reasons. Regardless, there are tons of juicy games around. I am loyal to the games I've been playing in the longest, though.

I did request that he talk to the dealer. When you have a dealer who constantly makes mistakes and all of the players are correcting him, and his reply is, "I'll deal the way I want to deal," something is seriously wrong.

Actually, they are lucky it was me. There are guys I play with who would have pulled out a gun in that situation. The weird thing is the guy who went nuts screaming saying I should get the pot wasn't even in the hand -- and I barely know him.

As a reformed Rules Nit myself, I have a soft spot for people like the bolded 😃

Every game needs rules, whether played professionally or just for fun. Bowling, Monopoly, Uno, NFL football, Golf, Chess, Poker...all become chaos if there's no rules or, even worse, someone changing/making up rules on the fly.

Once upon a time, I used to help people start/run home games. Step 1 always was to establish a ruleset to use. For cash games, we either modified TDA rules or used Robert's Rules of Poker. RRoP hasn't been updated in many years now (Bob died), but is still a good basis to build off of and better than nothing. TDA & WSOP rulesets are slanted towards tournaments so cover situations that don't come up in cash games and vice versa. But again, better than nothing. There's also a lot of good dealer procedures spelled out in those.

In poker, people that know all the rules, can recite them on demand, and make accurate/quick decisions based on them are often professionals in the industry and make a decent living at it. Some random bloke putting on a home game cannot be expected to have that level of knowledge. Pick a ruleset everyone agrees with and play on.

One of the trends over the last decade or so is that killing a hand is only done as a last resort. That's reflected in the "if cards are 100% identifiable" phrasing that is common in modern rulesets. Emphasis is always on Best Hand Wins...penalties can be assessed after, if needed.

As a dealer, whenever a player declares what they have but takes their time in showing, I always try to let the other players in the hand that nothing has been shown yet. I will say something directly to that effect: "two pair declared, but nothing shown yet". One, it let's the declaring player know that I am aware he hasn't showed yet so I am aware of a possible angle, ot also alerts the other players that a winning hand has not yet been shown down so they should hold their hands.

Someone tried to argue with me that saying this violated OPTAH because I was letting people know the declaring player hadn't shown yet, but I strongly disagree with that view. I think saying it prevents angles and makes for a cleaner game where the best hand at showdown wins.