Pot bet wildly miscalculated by dealer, 5-5-10/20 5card PLO Aria

+1

Im also pretty sure with another floor we probably would have gotten that (better) ruling … the guy who ruled (won’t say the name) is trying to move up in ranks and wants to show how tough he is and that he doesn’t back away from unpopular moves (the whole table basically told him to let her fold for zero, aka take the money back)

Rule #1 should've been applied here. IMO a Floor 'in training' shows me more by using judgment rather than robotics.

We've convinced most rooms to stack the pot during bomb pots (even NL) to speed up Showdown. This is commonly done in mixed games as well.

The size of the pot is the Players responsibility in NL .. spreading the pot should always be allowed.

I would be in favor of stacking the pot in PLO but it is the responsibility of the Dealer to track it .. IT'S IN THE NAME OF GAME.

There are usually 3-5 Players at the table that track the pot even if not in the hand. IMO it's every Player's responsibility to keep the game on track if they do see something amiss. Where chips go affects the rest of the game. OPTAH doesn't apply here IMO since a verification/correction is taking place .. information that's part of the game shouldn't violate any Players interest in a pot. GL

I've stopped paying attention to pots I'm not in in my underground games. They argue with me every other time, and it's just not worth it :( It's their money -- they can figure it out. If I'm in the hand, I sure as heck know what the pot is!

+1
(although I wished I had in that situation bc i really felt sorry for the girl)

The player can see every bet/raise/call/fold just as well as the dealer can. Math whiz not required. It is basic addition.

Again, not to excuse the dealer, they messed up royally, but so did the player.

When I play as a player, I know the pot size with a BB or two, usually spot on. That is just part of being an alert player aware of the action. Not being aware of the pot size is laziness and not playing at peak.

In fact, that is one of my triggers to know I am not playing well. If I don't know a very good estimate of the pot, then I am not playing well.

No. The rules do not say that the players have ro know the pot size at all times. However the rules make it clear that poker is a visual game and players are responsible for knowing game state, especially information that is readily available to them.

If Player A says raise and throws out a legal amount of chips for a raise and Player B says call, player B can't claim he didn't hear the raise. In the case of the OP, the player had easy access to all of the information to correctly calculate pot size. To later be misled by the dealer on the pot size does not absolve them of their responsibility of knowing game state when they act. Nothing was hidden.

Again, the dealer clearly screwed up, in a major way, but it doesn't absolve the player. Granted, if I was there and I knew the woman wasn't a solid player I would have tried to convince the floorperson to invoke rule one and let her take her money back, but the rules are clear about players being responsible for their actions and knowing game state.

But the bettor screwed up, too. He didn't know the pot size and he trusted the dealer to tell him the correct pot size. So now, she has to rely on the dealer and the bettor -- and they both got it wrong. No way is she responsible, nor should she be.

If we can't rely on the dealers to get it right, what's the point? If she had put in the amount stated and someone else had acted, then what? Now her action is not longer wrong because there has been "enough" action? So a third player doesn't know the pot size, either, and trusts the dealer, the bettor, and the woman but his actions are OK?

What rule do we follow?

I don't play PLO but if I did and was not in a hand and saw the dealer make a horrific mistake like he did here I would speak up immediately. Its just not fair to allow mistakes to happen that would cost a player significant money.

In a tournament recently a Dealer was asked for a count of the bet and was off by about 10,000. I immediately corrected the dealer even though I was not in the hand. The dealer recounted and realized he had counted the last two 5,000 chips as hundreds. He laughed at his mistake after explaining it and we all moved on. No criticisms were made of the dealer or of me for helping the dealer get it right.

The point is that as a player you are just as responsible for knowing the game state as the dealer is. In a technical sense, every player should know the pot amount. Period. Granted, that doesn't work out in real life and poker would be very unfriendly to new/inexperienced players if it was the norm, but it is the rules.

Like I said (and want to emphasize) I think a good floor tries to find a way to not penalize an inexperienced player here, especially since apparently all of the players were ok with an alternate ruling. Letting her take it back is my preferred path.

But bottom line, when you sit down at the table with money, you are responsible for knowing what is going on.

If the river hasn’t been dealt out and everyone at the table is fine with it I don’t see why not. If the river has been dealt out then the bet should stand.

Technically all players, even those not in the hand, have an obligation to make sure the action is correct if they see an error. I am sure you know that, but many people do not.

as much as i agree with you: a lot of people don't.

i've been in games multiple times where i corrected an error (to the advantage of one player, didn't know either player A or B) and then the other player berated me to the tune of "why the **** did you say something, you weren't even in the hand, it's not your money, yada yada ....".

Doesn't matter if they agree -- cards speak is the rule. If the dealer misses it and a player notices, they should 100% say something.

I have had people berate me after I corrected an error. First I point out that the rules clearly state that all players are responsible for correcting errors. Secondly, I turn it on them. I point out that if they are getting extra money they shouldn't get, someone else is losing money they should be getting. I ask the player who is berating me why they are trying to cheat?

You have the high road when correcting mistakes. Use it to your advantage.

This issue isn't anything having to do with the cards.

I was replying to Pokerbros_Player -- not cards in this post, but players speaking up when there is a mistake. The cards part was meant for another post 😉

The better doesn't really get "full protection", but it is skewed in his direction.

The better might ask "how much is the pot", receive the wrong (lower) answer, and then bet "pot", and then later the pot amount is corrected to be a higher amount that maybe is more than he would otherwise have bet. So he can also end up on the wrong end of a correction just like the caller.

But I think we would all agree that the better, rather than the caller, is more likely to benefit from the amount being corrected upwards, so it's not a symmetric effect.

Fair point for sure. I also think the bettor should bear more of the burden, since when they say "pot" they by definition intend to bet how much is in the pot, whereas when the dealer declares that amount is $1600, the caller is generally intending to call that amount. So if the bettor says "pot" and the pot is 2300, and the dealer says 1600, the bettor puts out 1600, but is corrected up to 2300, they are just matching their exact stated intention.

this happens a lot in plo.. never had a situation where the player didnt have the option to make their decision with the right information after the dealer gave the wrong information. Pretty hard for the floor to sit there and say my dealers are idiots they make mistakes that cost you money you need to verify and protect yourself rather then just try to correct it and revert the action from there but idk if thats what should happen. Also floors/dealers really don't like players questioning the dealer all the time and slowing down the game so idk why they would encourage people to do that in order to protect themselves.

OP also didn't say if players behind acted or not. If players behind acted amount should stay as whats as announced as thats significant action if not bet amount should be corrected to actual pot amount and no harm in reverting action IMO.

not 100% (it's been a while), but pretty sure there were 1 or 2 folds (bettor was first to act), and then the lady called (last to act). after she said call, someone on the table realized the amount was wrong, and then it happened as described ...

If that is the case then significant a tion occurred and the amount should stand.

That changes the situation completely...

Your understanding is not correct. When the caller says call, he is intending to call the amount of the bet. Period. If dealer is wrong with the amount but is corrected, BOTH bettor and caller are simply just matching their exact stated intention.

Either could know the correct amount and be using the dealer error to angle the other.

Bettor could be nutted and hoping the lessor amount makes the call easier with the intention to point out the correct amount when called. Or he might just be waiting to see that he wins to point out the error and thus lose less/win more (a free roll).

Caller might know the correct amount but be free rolling. He wins he points out the error, he loses and keeps quiet.

Either would be a dick move but both have ways for each player to protect themselves.