All In min raise situation

From the TDA procedures section

[QUOTE=TDA]
RP-12: Dealers Should Announce Bets and Raises
Dealers should routinely announce non-all-in bet values as betting proceeds around the table. All-in bets will be counted only on request of the player currently facing action. Accepted action continues to apply (Rule 49). Scheduled and discretionary color-ups improve bet countability.
[/QUOTE]

Seems as if they handled it properly.

This isn’t exactly spelled out this way (announce all in, but not raise) in tda, but the language is close:

The issue is that it doesn’t spell out what happens once the count is made. You can announce the amount, but there is nothing specifying whether you should also announce it as a full raise or as action only.

It seems to be some incorrect conflating of things by dealers/floors and the players. For instance, recommended TDA procedure is to immediately count & announce the amounts of bets, excluding all-in bets/raises. But while you don't count the amount of an all-in immediately, IMO the dealer should announce it as a raise if it is in fact a raise. This should include all-in raises that are legal/reopen action and ones that don't. All-in bets obviously speak for themselves, so simply announcing all-in is fine in that scenario

I don't think you were in the wrong, but you had no real interest to speak up in this situation IMO. The player/dealer probably thought you were noting the fact that it was a raise that reopened action, and not just simply an action that increased the previous bet/raise.

Many non wsop summer series have instituted the “All-In” button. Usually what that does, indirectly, is encourage the next interested player to ask “how much is that.”

To be fair, 8/10 dealers announcements of any action, is not firm enough in tone, or loud enough in a busy room with a demographic of people losing hearing or obstructing their hearing with headphones. The button helps visually.

I also think it was handled correctly but the red all in button and call buttons can help situations such as this.

If you had said "That re-opens the action." would that have been allowed? I don't think so (??) Seems like it provides too much information (??). However, if an all-in raise does re-open the action, I think the dealer should announce it as "Raise, all-in" but not announce the size unless asked.

Local rules or local interpretations of rules stand, of course.

While not explicitly stated, I've always thought the TDA rule about not announcing a count for all-in bets is that, in the real world, there's piles of chips, and it would be a legit time waster. Anyone know if that's the case?

In the bar-poker league in which I deal, that's not the case. Because of what Hell2Heaven says (somebody's going to ask for a count anyway, regardless of their ability to process that information), I'll just announce the amount because it's ~5 chips.

Players, especially those not in the hand, though, should never be adding information to the game. Correcting errors, yes.

The dealer announced it properly, and OP should have stayed quiet.

I don't know why we aren't supposed to count all ins, my only guess is to save time and minimize disruptions. TDA isn't big on doing things only when it's easy, or when it seems like a good idea. You always do something or never do it. Most of the time the exact amount isn't needed by the players any way.

This. Indicating it was a raise lets everyone else know the action has been re-opened. It is no different that saying something when the flop is all diamonds or 3 aces. It may be mostly obvious, but it gives other players information that there is a small chance that they might of missed on their own.

All of that said, I absolutely hate the TDA rule about dealers not announcing the amount of all -ins until asked. I know it is there to save time, but I think it wastes more time than it saves.

If it is easy to estimate the amount of the all in then it is also easy for the dealer to count quickly. If it is a complicated stack of all in chips then there is this weird dance of watching a recreational player stare at the stack from accross the table trying to figure out how much it is and that taking longer than him just simply asking.

Furthermore, it opens up a very wide grey area of what constitutes a request for an exact count?

All hell then breaks loose. One player in the hand (the guy who had called) starts to yell at me that I am not allowed to say anything if I am not in the hand. The dealer then reiterates that. Every other player at the table then criticizes me. Including the player who had initially raised.

I'm just a simple cash player. Are all tournament players this miserable to be around?

I am rarely at a table when a dealer announces bet values as betting proceeds around the table. If a player says an amount out loud then the Dealer usually repeats it out loud in case somebody at the other end of the table didn't hear it. If a player says "raise" out loud then usually the dealer will say "Raise" for similar reasons.

And I understand why Dealers don't announce All In amounts unless another player asks.

But in general when a player puts in chips that are a raise of a prior bet (or pre-flop are a raise of the big blind) the Dealer will say "Raise" but not count it out. The beginning of the rule above says "Dealers should announce Bets and Raises" which to me means that if somebody raises the dealer should say "Raise". Normally when somebody goes all in it is obvious as to whether or not it is a raise. And because of what the rule says above I think the dealer should say "Raise" without saying the amount. In this case the dealer spread out the chips so he could see the total amount and it was clear that it was a raise. But the chips were at the opposite end of the table from the original raiser so it is possible they wouldn't know it was a raise.

In some casinos (like the Borgota) dealers are asked to spread out bets that have different color chips especially when there are large amount chips at the bottom. The Dealer doesn't announce the bet size but makes it easier for players to figure it out without having to ask. In Prague at Rebuy Stars Luka the Dealers did that on every bet that had different colored chips.

This made me laugh out loud.

At this table I actually got along with the players at my end of the table (I was in seat 3) until this happened. Then most of them came around. Especially the guy who went all in after I raised and then called with TT and his AQo beat me. The only player who stayed mad at me was the player who had called (until he doubled up like 3 times).

Fortunately after the guy went all in both of the other players in the hand just called probably because we were near the bubble. I think the all in guy survived anyway.

I agree with everything up to this last line. As a player, if I request a count, the only thing I want is an exact count.

Couple weeks ago, I make a $25 bet on the flop. Folds to a player who had checked. He puts out a stack of red. Dealer announces raise but no amount.

I had been watching for awhile and knew the player was not particularly tidy with his stacks. Most were 20 but some were 19 and some were 21. So I asked for count. Dealer who was talking to S1 glances and announces 100.

But it did not look right to me, plus now I am going to make a point if needed. I insist on a count and ask him to break down. As soon as he grabbed the stack, he got a look. The 100 was really 95. Even though it did not really matter as I was going all in but dealer lack of attention and resistance to do his job fired up the ahole in me. Just don’t guess.

An estimated count has no value to me ever.

It seems more important for the dealer to point out a player is all-in, than point out the action is still open. [All-in does not exclude being a raise, and dealer may say "All in for Less," "All in for xxx" depending on context.]

I get your logic, but this does border on influencing action to me. If dealer procedure is to announce all in only if a player goes all in, then they should abide by that procedure. It’s up to the players to decide to ask for the amount and to ask if it constitutes a legal raise.

That being said, the reaction at the table was way overblown and an experienced dealer would put a stop to it immediately. If a verbal warning is warranted, the dealer should be the one giving the warning, and that’s all this would amount to in my book as intent clearly wasn’t there.

Moving forward I won't do it again because at Parx (and probably everywhere) the way they interpret the rules is that the Dealers aren't required to tell the players that it is a raise when an all in happens. I don't agree with it, but it isn't up to me. I agree with what you are saying in that it could influence the action if I am not in the hand, though that was not my intention (I was just trying to correct what I wrongly thought was a Dealer omission).

If I am in the hand and this happens again, when it is my turn to act, I will ask the Dealer if it is a raise, regardless of what I am going to do, because I do think it is something that should be announced.

You handled this extremely poorly on multiple occasions.

I think you missed my point because I agree with all of this.

My point was about it being a grey area of what constitutes a request for a count of an all in by another player. Obviously if a player directly asks "How much?" that is a clear request. However I have had players nod their head in the direction of the all in bet. I am fairly sure it means they want a count, but that is an assumption. I have had players stand up lean over the table and put their eyeball 6 inches from the all in stack to count it. I am pretty sure they are looking for a good count. I have had players ask how many of the biggest chips are there.

I think it is just easier for dealers to count all ins automatically (unless action makes it obvious) than wait for a vague request.

As a dealer, I look for any excuse to count down an all in stack. If another player stares at the stack for more than 10 seconds I just run it down. If the all in player actively declares an amount (or even an estimate) I will run it down. If the chips are stacked in such a way that the biggest chips are not on top (or separate), I will use that as an excuse to rearrange the stack effectively counting it out.