Tricky Situation (Dealer not doing his job), could cost me 3.5K
Live PLO 5-5 with 10 straddle. Official Casino game in Netherlands.
Hand kinda irrelevant for my question, just to get a full picture:
get drawn into a pot with 5-6-9-10 ss with hearts, small raise, few callers, i call, another small reraise (not pot), so i call again. flop 6-7-K (with 2 hearts), so only gutshot and small flush draw for me, but pot already big, short stack goes allin, i call, another guy goes over the top for only a little more, of course i call again.
runout 6-7-K-7-A (no hearts), horrible for me, i only have a pair of 6s.
now first guy opens his hand Q-J-9-5 (Queen high, no pair, he had a fl draw too), and the other guy sees this, shakes his head and folds his hand. But he only folds it face down, pushes it forward a little, but it's clearly not in the muck yet.
now, the dealer first job here would be to actually kill the hand (put it in the muck), but he doesn't do that. instead he starts to make change so he can take the rake out (not a time game). the second guy was not a good player, so i figure there's a high probability he either misread the first guy's hand or his own, and can actually beat my pair of 6s.
Now i don't want to alert him to the fact that this could be the case (by telling the dealer to do his job and kill the hand, since it's still easily retrievable), but at the same time since the dealer is not doing it by himself, i'm in kind of a pickle. dealer is super slow, and everybody on the table is of course talking about how a shitty pair of 6s can win such a nice pot, and i'm sweating and just waiting for the guy to go like "oh wait, i think i had 9s or something, and picks up his hand again ..."
pot is over 3K, and i really would like to get that money with my 6s ... ;-)))
what do you do in such a case guys???
Maybe nothing, maybe ask "did he muck? " To the dealer. Maybe just show my hand since I can beat the best hand tabled.
dealer first job here would be to actually kill the hand (put it in the muck), but he doesn't do that
If you say something it alerts the player to take another
look at the board and maybe realize he has a winner.
Say something away from the table later if you're friendly with the staff?
Is it always done like this or just when you're in the hand?
This is a huge no-no for the dealer. I've had this happen when I'm in the hand and all you can do is sit there quietly and stew.
You can speak to a supervisor or manager and hope that they'll pull the dealer aside so that it doesn't happen again, but there's really no other recourse.
This is a huge no-no for the dealer. I've had this happen when I'm in the hand and all you can do is sit there quietly and stew.
You can speak to a supervisor or manager and hope that they'll pull the dealer aside so that it doesn't happen again, but there's really no other recourse.
of course that's what i did afterwards (when hand and session was over), talked to the room director, explained everything, he promised to address this with the guy (and all other dealers) ... but it doesn't help within the situation of course.
If you say something it alerts the player to take another
look at the board and maybe realize he has a winner.
exactly, that's why i kept quiet ... i was almost certain that he must have me beat, but didn't realize it for whatever reason.
no, usually they take the cards in (physically "muck them", by putting them on the pile)
this was kind of an extraordinary situation, bc
a) the hand wasn't really mucked and
b) the pot was big for the game and my hand was so insanely weak
This is a huge no-no for the dealer. I've had this happen when I'm in the hand and all you can do is sit there quietly and stew.
You can speak to a supervisor or manager and hope that they'll pull the dealer aside so that it doesn't happen again, but there's really no other recourse.
that's what i did ("sit and stew" ;-)) ... didn't feel good
I guess it's like when the ref gets in the way of the play and costs the team a 1st down. It sucks. It's largely avoidable. And there's nothing you can do other than hope someone learns from their mistakes.
hmm ... was hoping for some trick/technique/whatever to handle this better.
but i guess you are correct, nothing i could have done differently there
were you and the Q9 hand the two biggest stacks? if so the dealer should have asked to have seen your hands first for the side pot anyway
hmm ... was hoping for some trick/technique/whatever to handle this better.
but i guess you are correct, nothing i could have done differently there
I guess if you're close enough to the dealer, you could always try to get his attention and say, "Please muck that hand." But, as you pointed out, speaking up risks alerting the villain that his hand is still live and he might just grab it if he hears you. My go-to has always been to hold my breath and silently berate the dealer in my own thoughts.
As a dealer myself, there are times when I'm busy making change or counting out a stack of chips for a half a second, and then I remember that there's a live hand sitting there which needs to get to the muck. So I'll stop what I'm doing, muck the hand, and then get back to the whatever it was I was doing before. I know it's important, and most dealers also know this, but there's plenty of new dealers out there who just don't get it.
It sucks. I don't know what else to tell you.
are the people in this thread advocating that the dealer silently muck a hand that is live for a side pot b/c a person only live for the main pot prematurely tables?
it's not entirely clear, but agreed it looks like the head shake guy is the one in for the side pot, and dealer should be clarifying the situation and asking for those hands first and not even reading main pot guy yet.
side/main pot is not the issue (in fact, those 2 guys had similar stacks, the guy who mucked had slightly more than the other guy, i cover both), bc first guy tables his hand, and then second guy instantly mucked (not waiting for any command from the dealer regarding side pot first or anything)
side/main pot is not the issue (in fact, those 2 guys had similar stacks, the guy who mucked had slightly more than the other guy, i cover both), bc first guy tables his hand, and then second guy instantly mucked (not waiting for any command from the dealer regarding side pot first or anything)
But it does matter. The dealer shouldn’t let someone live for the side pot muck when they see a hand only live for the main. They should say something like “for the side” and gesture to yall.
If dealer is putting cards on the muck they are doing that wrong. Should go into which insures not identifiable
But it does matter. The dealer shouldn’t let someone live for the side pot muck when they see a hand only live for the main. They should say something like “for the side” and gesture to yall.
but the dealer didn't do that, bc stacks were very close, dealer hadn't counted them, and had no idea who was in the side and who in the main.
and again, after the guy mucked, it was irrelevant (since i covered, so i was in main and any eventual side (if there was one)), and the guy clearly gave up his bid for both (main and side) by folding/mucking
but this is 2+2 again as we know and love it: not answer the question asked, but going on about something that is irrelevant at that point ;-)))
Right up there in tradition with trying to win at showdown without the best hand I guess.
Right up there in tradition with trying to win at showdown without the best hand I guess.
Also you originally made it very clear that it was obvious who was in the side pot since one guy went all in, you called, another went all in for more and you “called again”.
And it’s relevant bc the rules and procedures will generally dictate how this goes, so knowing what to do is based on that. I’d agree the dealer should muck the guys cards if he was covered by the guy who showed, and you’re within your
ok, for the cheap seats in the back, one final time, very slowly:
1. one guy tables a hand (that i beat), another guy mucks without showing ... in what world am i trying to win without the best hand???
2. a guy mucks his hand, which means, he gives up any claims to the pot (main and/or side)
3. let's say (to entertain this thought), he actually had a better hand than mine ... isn't it his responsibility to show this hand face up instead of mucking?
these "arguments" are ridiculous.
You seem very keen to win with the worst hand.
The dealer probably also didn't push up the board indicating the guy who showed had only 77aqj as his best hand.
The first question that's important is did you turn your hand over or not? If I am in a hand like this where I have turned my hand over and another player has mucked their cards, the dealer has almost always started pushing the pot to me typically after he has mucked the other players hand. In this case the question for me is if you turned your hand over did the other player not do or say anything? And did the Dealer not do or say anything?
However, if you had not turned over your hand yet then the Dealer is doing the right thing by not mucking the other hand. Because you are playing for a side pot (which OK the Dealer had no idea about) you have to turn your hand over first. Then the main pot will get dealt with. The player who mucked their hand still has a live hand that can be used in the main pot. Even though he may have misread the other players QJ95 hand and thought he would lose the main pot he still should see the winning hand which should be declared by the Dealer ("Two Pair") when you turn over your hand. Or at the very least The Dealer can push up the 776 on the board. What the Dealer should do at that point is ask you to turn over your hand. And when you do then ask the player who mucked his hand if his hand was mucked. Not sure if that happened or not. I would also not have a problem with the Dealer waiting a couple of seconds and then just mucking the hand after you turn over your hand if the player hasn't pulled back his mucked hand.
The other issue is how you lost. Did the other player realize he had the winning hand and turn his hand over? Or did the Dealer turn over his hand? If it is the latter then that is wrong.
The final issue is once you turned over your hand did the dealer do nothing for a bit of time? That happened to me once (at the Taj Mahal in a 20/40 LHE game) where the Dealer did nothing with Seat 1's mucked hand after I had shown top pair because the Dealer had seen his hand and knew it had me beat (the player had shown his hand to the Dealer and players sitting in Seats 2 and 3). So after about 10 or 15 seconds the player next to Seat 1 said "You have the winning hand" at which point Seat 1 turned over his hand. It was the last time I played at the Taj Mahal (which had really bad players so it cost me money) because the Floor came over and didn't tell the Dealer what he should have done he just told Seat 2 not to help another player during a hand or he would be penalized next time and then the head of the room told me he wasn't going to tell his dealers or Floors to act differently.
You seem very keen to win with the worst hand.
The dealer probably also didn't push up the board indicating the guy who showed had only 77aqj as his best hand.
man, you got me ... nailed it down. i also had an ace up my sleeve, and marked the cards, and was secretly communicating with my hired hitmen in the parking lot in case something went wrong.
