Rules question: Opponent Challenges the Process after he lost at Showdown
I was playing at WSOP live cash, there was an all in on the flop, and we agreed to run it twice.
The pot is about 8K USD. I won both boards. We both had flushes on both boards, but I had the higter flush. Then, the guy called the floor and was adamant that the dealer did not turn and burn in the correct order.
Basically, a lot of the dealers at the WSOP cash games are new, and there have been a lot of mistakes being made during the day.
From my perspective, this was not fair, that he had 2 chances to win the pot against me. First of all, he could have won, and I highly doubt if he had won, that he would have called the floor to redo the hand.
2ndly, he could have received a favorable ruling, then they would have to somehow redo the deal on the turn and the river.
I was trying to be nice, he was first to act, and he asked me if I had the nut flush on the river and I said yes and I showed my Ace hi flush. He flipped over a smaller flush, and then he called the floor right away. I don't really think he was intentionally trying to have 2 shots to win the hand, but don't have any way of knowing.
I talked to 2 of their top floor people and they can't tell me the answer if it's final after showdown or not. For me, it's not reassuring that I can win a big pot there, and then I still have to be concerned, especially because of the number of new dealers there and the amount of skill level and mistakes being made.
Thanks!
In a run it twice scenario like this, typically such errors should be noticed/pointed out as they occur or as early as possible. For this hand, there's supposed to be 5 burn cards in total, and 2 turn & river cards. Let's say there was maybe a street where the dealer didn't burn a card, so you have 1 less. Putting that all back together on surveillance review would be quite difficult, perhaps impossible if the dealer is making other mistakes like mucking the stub/burn cards prematurely.
In this case, it looks like a clear attempt to freeroll the situation by your opponent since he got you to show/declare your hand before he pointed out the potential error. If he had won with the error, he would have said nothing.
A ruling/situation that occurred in a room I previously worked at that treats extra runouts as "significant action": In a bomb pot at this room, if both flops are dealt before you notice you have too many/too few cards, then your hand is dead. The idea being that the dealing of two flops for the bomb pot is considered significant action, enough time for you to make note of an error and have it rectified or a misdeal declared. Applied to your hand, your opponent allowing the errors to occur and, in effect, go to showdown, can be considered significant action in this case too. Perhaps accepted action is the right term.
In this case, it looks like a clear attempt to freeroll the situation by your opponent since he got you to show/declare your hand before he pointed out the potential error. If he had won with the error, he would have said nothing.
Whether or not it was intentional, he would definitely be freerolling me!
I don't know why the floor people at WSOP can't give me a straight answer, but it's definitely concerning for me to play there after this hand and talking to 2 of their top floor people.
Whether or not it was intentional, he would definitely be freerolling me!
I don't know why the floor people at WSOP can't give me a straight answer, but it's definitely concerning for me to play there after this hand and talking to 2 of their top floor people.
If you shared with them exactly what you shared here, I completely understand why they can't/won't say. You have not given anywhere near enough actual details to form a concise opinion beyond maybe...'it depends'.
Whether or not it was intentional, he would definitely be freerolling me!I don't know why the floor people at WSOP can't give me a straight answer, but it's definitely concerning for me to play there after this hand and talking to 2 of their top floor people.
If you shared with them exactly what you shared here, I completely understand why they can't/won't say. You have not give
"I told them more detail, as much as they listen to: I don't think it was really that complicated of a question.
We are all in on the FLOP. The guy and I agree to run it twice. After he lost the pot, he suddenly is questioning the order of the burn and turn on the runouts. He was possibly confused because it's dealt differently than a bomb pot on the burn and turns. What I know for sure was that he saw that he lost the hand before the floor was called and he was trying to get a 2nd deal. I also know for sure that a lot of dealers are new there, and mistakes are often being made "
Luckily for me this dealer was one of the guys who knew what he was doing. If not, it's very possible I could have been freerolled. The only thing the floor people were addressing was if it was dealt out correctly or not. Nothing about him waiting until after the showdown was ever addressed.
Basically, they told me that they (the senior floor people) after i discussed later, said they would need to "be in the moment" implying to me that a decision could go either way.
I'm just curious, what extra details might be useful? I can tell you that the dealers there don't know what they are doing, a very high percentage of them.
What details? Like maybe telling us what the perceived error was. Like too many burn, too few, on turn? OTR? 1st or 2nd board? Etc.
Don’t doubt at all it was attempt at a free roll but rules and procedures differ greatly between double board games and running multiple times. But so are the allowed corrective actions.
You're posting a lot of questions lately without giving enough information. In this case, you say the guy called the floor, but you don't say what happened next. What was the floor ruling?
If the floor ruled that you get the whole pot, which seems likely, I don't understand why you went to any further trouble, or why you posted here at all.
What details? Like maybe telling us what the perceived error was. Like too many burn, too few, on turn? OTR? 1st or 2nd board? Etc.
Don’t doubt at all it was attempt at a free roll but rules and procedures differ greatly between double board games and running multiple times. But so are the allowed corrective actions.
There wasn't a mistake in the hand was the result. But if there had been a mistake, which happens very very frequently at the WSOP cash games. I could have lost the pot. I don't know all the rules but I just felt like I had been freerolled in this situation. I don't think he was intentionally doing it, but it turned out that he could have had 2 chances to win if there had been a mistake, according to what I was told.
The complaint (after he realized he just lost a huge pot) was that about the order of the burn and turn on flop and river when we ran it twice.
Flop: K T 4: DD. We agree to go twice.
It's supposed to be on the flop: Burn, Turn, Burn, River; Burn, Turn, Burn, River.
What if: So let's say the dealer dealt out the turn and river on both boards without burn cards, and they dealt it like a bomb pot:
Do bomb pots have turn burns and river burn cards?
It's just not safe to play at a place where the dealers don't know how to deal, if you can lose 8K pots that late in a hand, after that much action. I don't think that's right. It's a very easy call in my opinion. But what I'm getting is a confirmation that I could have lost the hand if a dealer messes up the action. I've never had a situation like this come up. It felt like I was completely free rolled. And I don't think it was intentional at all. But even if it wasn't intentional, the free roll still happened. He had 2 chances to win the pot. He can't lose anything when he challenges the deal after showdown! That's my point. Agree / Disagree?
You should stick to online. The dealers don’t make mistakes there and you can turn off the chat if villains call you a rat
You're posting a lot of questions lately without giving enough information. In this case, you say the guy called the floor, but you don't say what happened next. What was the floor ruling?
If the floor ruled that you get the whole pot, which seems likely, I don't understand why you went to any further trouble, or why you posted here at all.
I won. It was too close for comfort, 8K is a lot of money to me that's why I wanted to get clarity on what my rights are in this type of a situation.
I also had the idea that I need to know all of the rules to prevent mistakes up front in case this kind of a thing happens again. that's the only way I could possibly play at that place again. I was highly profitable, so I was kind skeptical to commit to not play there at all next year. It's possible I could play there if I can learn how to deal with the chaos and the lack of dealer skills and the arguments that were happening every day there at the tables (Mostly because of very high percentage of people running the games were not qualified to be dealing IMO) I'll probalby play at Wynn / Aria next time. Most likely.
OP, the problem is you're talking about so many hypotheticals both with us and the floors. Floors can't necessarily tell you what they would rule in a hypothetical situation, unless it's a very obvious & procedural one, e.g 4 card flop or early dealt turn. Part of this is maintaining game integrity & personal integrity. Let's say they tell you in situation X they would rule Y. A situation super similar to X but with some very minor difference/nuance occurs and they make a different ruling. You're involved in the situation and make a big stink about them claiming they would rule in a certain way in these situations. Bad on you, of course, but also a completely unnecessary negative look for said floor.
You should stick to online. The dealers don’t make mistakes there and you can turn off the chat if villains call you a rat
Lots of options. I could also go the more aggressive route and tell the guy to shut the **** up (the guy that insulted me).
I could tell him he was a cheater because he tried to win the pot the day before after we already showed down the hands. And then call the floor and tell him the guy just insulted me.
But I would rather take high road. I'm here to learn....
I was playing at WSOP live cash, there was an all in on the flop, and we agreed to run it twice.The pot is about 8K USD. I won both boards. We both had flushes on both boards, but I had the higter flush. Then, the guy called the floor and was adamant that the dealer did not turn and burn in the correct order.Basically, a lot of the dealers at the WSOP cash games are new, and
Yes they can’t tell you if it’s final after showdown because it depends. Someone can contest the pot until the next hand, typically when either the first shuffle starts or the new deck is being cut out of the shuffle machine.
This situation, I’d have to know more details but inherently if there’s any question as to what happened I’m ruling against the guy that waited until he knew he lost to speak up.
Stop trying to insert fairness when you’re talking to the floor. Obviously the floor knows you want it ruled in your favor. Just tell them exactly what happened without twenty unnecessary details. Preferably in less than 5 sentences.
I also worried about this exact scenario at the WSOP, after I also saw a guy accuse the dealer of not burning a card when he lost a big pot. In that case the dealer had correctly dealt the burn cards. It seems similar to what you're describing where the player was just angling to get a new runout dealt after they lost.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a missed burn card would typically void the runout. I think a good floor would also consider the freeroll aspect though, and might rule that it's too late to change anything if a player doesn't say anything until after they realize they lost. That's assuming hole cards were face down, runouts were dealt and the other player stayed silent until after they saw they lost.
These are just hazards of playing live poker. Even good experienced dealers can make mistakes. I once lost thousands of dollars after I snap called an all-in (I had a set) and the dealer prematurely dealt the turn. The turn would have given me a full house to lock up the hand. However, there was an irrelevant third player still in the hand who hadn't folded yet. Floor got called, third player folded, turn card got shuffled back in, yada yada and I lost to the nut flush on the new runout (opponent had the nut flush draw).
I also had the idea that I need to know all of the rules to prevent mistakes up front in case this kind of a thing happens again. that's the only way I could possibly play at that place again.
Almost all of your anxiety is self-inflicted. If you approach multiple floor people with the same trickle-truthing that you have shown here, then they are going to respond with extreme caution. Hell, I'm on full alert reading your posts, and I have no stake in the situation.
I still don't get it. It seems like you are saying that the dealer didn't make any mistakes but the other player believed he did. Then the floor made the decision to gave you the pot.
If my understanding is correct, the only problem was something done by the other player. No room can control what is said or done by its players.
If you don’t get it you are an idiot.
The floor came over and only inquired regarding if the burn and turn were done correctly, and only cared about that and seemingly ruled based on that. The floor did not listen to the point that players need to speak up before they see a card dealt regarding burn and turn, because they can freeroll and get a second run out *if* they want.
The person who did this to you is a POS.
Years ago this nasty angle happened at Borgata in a huge PLO pot I was at the table for and the friendly to cheating player floor ruled the burn and turn should be re-done, after the player who brought it up saw the first run out (and that he lost). Amazingly karma came in then and he still lost on the second runout but I was disgusted then and questioned whether being in scummy environments like that is how I wanted to spend my time.
Gaming commissions in NV are contactable and responsive and will review tape that poker rooms have to store for a certain amount of time and make it right is your only future defense to this. Talking to senior floors etc is just going to get you a non-answer, 95% everywhere are dumbasses or don’t want to discuss the incompetence that happened, and it sounds like you had a good dealer who spoke up about the angle as well and maybe it contributed to the interpretation of a correct burn and turn when it was actually done wrong.
Yeah, the other guy may be a POS who regularly pulls this crap. Or he might just not know the nuances of running out twice that well. Or he might have been panicking because he just lost his rent money.
It doesn't really matter, because the floor seems to have handled it fine.
If he had determined that the correct procedure had not been followed, maybe the floor would have figured something out and ruled based on the potential unfair freeroll. We'll never know, because that didn't happen.
And lol at expecting the floor to say or do anything further. Have you ever played at the WSOP? it's the largest poker room in the world yet it's temporary.
Maybe if you were playing in a small cardroom for locals, where the same customers play often, you could get this kind of extra attention from a floorperson. Maybe.
I used to be a regular at Borgata, and I would be shocked if the floor gave extra attention to a situation like this, especially if it were during a big tournament. I don't remember being very impressed with their floors. Literally the one time I ever felt that I was cheated at the poker table was in a PLO game at the Borgata, and the floor made a horrible ruling.
But at the WSOP? It's staffed by temp dealers and temp floors, and it's mostly populated by players who probably have never met and may never play together again. The floor likely has never seen this villain before, and may never see him again.
He's running around a makeshift poker room with a walkie-talkie, trying to put out several fires at once. And you expect him to address a theoretical situation, one that the OP didn't even likely ask about at the time?
Seriously, GTFOOH, this is beyond laughable.
OP was lucky to get a favorable ruling at all. That was certainly not a sure thing, and no regular of these forums should have been shocked if it were ruled wrongly. Expecting a temp floor at the WSOP to take extra time to teach the table a lesson about recognizing improper procedure and pointing it out as quickly as possible is the most lol thing I have read here this year.
But thanks for the laugh!
He was a POS for sure IMO.
I've decided I'm not playing the WSOP cash next year after reading replies on this thread and having a few days to marinade on the trip. I'll stick with Aria and Wynn. At the end of the trip, I'll compare my results from this past year.
If you don’t get it you are an idiot. The floor came over and only inquired regarding if the burn and turn were done correctly, and only cared about that and seemingly ruled based on that. The floor did not listen to the point that players need to speak up before they see a card dealt regarding burn and turn, because they can freeroll and get a second run out *if* they want. Th
That is EXACTLY how the floor should have handled it. Once he ascertained that there was nothing wrong to correct, he doesn't have any reason to ask about when a complaint was noticed because it doesn't matter. There is nothing to correct.
As to if the timing mattered, if players are all in there is no more action. So if an error occurs and if it can be corrected, there is not a reason to not reconstruct the correct board(s), if it can be done. Seeing the cards doesn't matter because that knowledge gains no advantage.
Now the reality is that if the cards were put out in the incorrect order (i.e. two boards in parallel instead of in series) reconstructing is going to get quire difficult. But I have never seen a dealer make that mistake and both players missed it (plus the rest of the table).
I have seen missing/extra burns but that is much more easy to fix.
Remember the goal of any ruling should be that the best actual hand wins. So if we can reconstruct what the board should be, that is what should be done.
As to if the timing mattered, if players are all in there is no more action. So if an error occurs and if it can be corrected, there is not a reason to not reconstruct the correct board(s), if it can be done. Seeing the cards doesn't matter because that knowledge gains no advantage.
I’m sorry are we responding to the same situation? There absolutely is huge mathematical and monetary value in waiting to see if you lost before asking to run it twice. The guy had a huge hand on both boards, and wanted to see if his hand would win. You think if he had won he would ask for the cards to come back?
I’m sorry are we responding to the same situation? There absolutely is huge mathematical and monetary value in waiting to see if you lost before asking to run it twice. The guy had a huge hand on both boards, and wanted to see if his hand would win. You think if he had won he would ask for the cards to come back?
Sorry
before asking to correct the mistake and running it twice again*
I’m sorry are we responding to the same situation? There absolutely is huge mathematical and monetary value in waiting to see if you lost before asking to run it twice. The guy had a huge hand on both boards, and wanted to see if his hand would win. You think if he had won he would ask for the cards to come back?
No, he probably wouldn't have, but the OP probably would have, if he had been paying attention.
I don't think what you are saying here contradicts what Fore is saying. He's saying there would be no strategic advantage to having seen the cards already, so if the boards need to be corrected it didn't change anything; the result is still what should have happened to begin with.
Whoever pays attention to what is happening definitely will sometimes have an advantage in this kind of situation, but that can't be fixed by the floor or anyone else.
I’m sorry are we responding to the same situation? There absolutely is huge mathematical and monetary value in waiting to see if you lost before asking to run it twice. The guy had a huge hand on both boards, and wanted to see if his hand would win. You think if he had won he would ask for the cards to come back?
He freerolled me. I stand by that.
