Is this normal dealer behavior?
I'm sitting in the 3 seat at a 1-3 game at MGM National Harbor. The players in the 3-6 seats have all been here at least 30 minutes. The table is 8-handed, and there is a small, vertical line between the 4 and 5 seats. When Seat 4 first sat down, he put his chips and cup holder on his left, about 2-3 inches to his side of the dividing line. I have my chips on my left as well. I often do the same thing my neighbor did when I'm in seat 4 or 5, in part because I don't like to play with stacks directly in front of me, and I also like to set the boundary for those neighbors who will spill into your space if you let them.
Seat 4 gets up to take a walk. A new dealer sits down. I'm looking at my phone. I look up, and the dealer is moving Seat 4's chips 3-4 inches towards me, pushes my stacks 3-4 inches over, telling me "You're 8-handed and you need to move over."
"His chips are on our side of the line."
"You need to move."
"No, it's hard enough for me to see from here."
"You must move over."
Since I was planning to leave within the half-hour, I just racked up and left.
Is this weird dealer behavior, or was I out of line?
10 Replies
Well you have framed this as weird dealer behavior already, so let's back up.
The dealer is probably reasonably centering the absent player at his cupholder or chips (or the average of both), which by your measurement would put his left torso way over the line. Additionally, he might believe that your placement of your chips forced Seat 4 to migrate leftward.
I also wouldn't discount the possibility that Seat 4 felt encroached by you but hadn't raised it for diplomacy reasons. This is why I respect when dealers adjust player positions without prompting — that's a good dealer in my book. (It's also possible that Seat 4 mentioned something on his walk.)
The preference you describe really doesn't scale. If everyone did what you do, then again by your measurement, Seat 8 would have his chips and cupholder up to two inches from the dealer's likely pitching arm.
People are really bad at mentally dividing space around an oval. That is why we have the ritual of "squaring up". Hell, that is why you have lines on your table.
Seat 4 was friendly guy my age, and we had been talking off-and-on for at least two hours. The likelihood that he said something to the dealer coming to the dealer feels slim-to-none.
Even if the dealer thought our side looked imbalanced, wouldn't one just wait for the player to return to his seat before assuming he's playing behind rather than to the side of the chip stack?
I'm not really following the setup or the question.
Are you basically just asking if the dealer should square the table up without anyone asking?
Or asking if you were already square based on your description of the geometry of the table?
If the former, as a dealer I probably would not, especially with absent players and stacks being the ones at issue, but as albedoa notes some players would actually prefer that behavior so it's kinda a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for them. I certainly wouldn't find fault with it.
If the latter, I don't really understand what the situation was enough to say. It sounds like you think you were squared up properly maybe, and the dealer disagreed? Knowing nothing else, I'd say he's probably right and you're probably wrong, but that is just a SWAG based on first principles.
Even though you're presenting this as a question, you're still not leaving room for the behavior to be normal. Anyway, I appreciate when a dealer is proactive about physical comfort and overall experience — in fact, it's one of the things that signals a good dealer to me, since they treat their job as more than a card slinger. Their care extends beyond the mechanics and flow of the immediate game.
If anything the dealer should of waited for the player to come back, and she shouldn't be pushing someone's chips especially if that payer is right there.
Instead she should of said "Are his chips in your way"? and took things from there.
While I respect a dealer squaring up the table, the dealer should never be touching anyone's chips in a cash game that aren't involved in a pot without permission.
that's really all there is to say about it, nobody, be it dealer, player, or god himself, is allowed to touch my chips. dealer is clearly out of line.
Agree, no one including dealer should touch my chips (until they are in the pot and then really no longer mine...but there is a local dealer that drives me nuts but I will leave that rant for another time.)
However, recently, I was in LV playing a Bellagio. Note I "always" buy some white (or blue in this case) chips to shuffle with and (since usually playing 1/2 or 1/3) make my bet amount exact as needed.
So I am in BB playing 1/3. I only have about 16 blue and I am shuffling 12 of those. So I put out a red for my bb. It get a couple of limps and no raise. I have crap like J2 off or something so I check my option.
The dealer grabs my red, puts in back on my stack of reds, reaches over the stack where my 4 blue are sitting and grabs 3 to pay my BB. I am like...whoa, a) I put a red out for a reason (I know I have 4 blue but as I said, I always like to have a few blue to bet plus what I am shuffling) and b) you do not go grabbing in my stack.
The dealer says "well I guess you are going to make my work". Didn't say it but I was like 'well making change is kinda is your job but regardless ya don't touch my money.' Now if she asked (like the tray was short or something, but she actually had plenty of blue from limpers to make the change anyway), maybe I swap the blue for red. But no one else needs to be doing.
She also went off on another player (he splashed the pot once, his first hand) but 20 min later she was ragging on him for no reason about something he did not do.
Needless to say, she did not get any tips from me that down.
Plus somehow it came up with the next dealer (I don't recall how) and he was like, 'oh, that's fine, we just do that here at Bellagio' but I said maybe you do, but not with my money you don't.
crazy behaviour imo
as you've said before: when they go into the pot, they are no longer yours ... before that, nobody touches them for whatever reason (and sure, they can ask of course, if they need change or anything else)
i would always make that very very clear, and if i don't get backing from the floor (if necessary), then i won't be playing in that place anymore
Damn internet ate my previous (long) reply.
You are obviously correct that the dealer shouldn't be touching a player's chips in a cash game. The only caveats I can think of involve obvious exceptions.
I sit down at a $1/$3 game to deal. Seat 5 is empty (no one in Bravo). Seat 4 is gone from the table and has a ton of chips, many in front of the seat 5 position. Seat 4 is away from the table when I sit down. It is obvious that they have been playing 8 handed for a while and seat 4 naturally took over seat 5's space. It happens.
The 3rd or 4th hand of my down, a player shows up looking for an empty seat. He looks lost and doesn't realize seat 5 is open (seat 4's chips are all over the area). So I tell him seat 5 is open and I physically move seat 4's chips despite him being gone.
My requirement of seating new players and making them feel comfortable has greater priority than not touching the chips of a player. Sorry. That is just the way it is.
That said, I totally understand what you have talked about dealers touching your chips for no reason. There has been more than once where I have order a drink and have had $3-$5 white chips. Then I have to post a $3 big blind and I post a redbird. The dealer will question me or openly roll their eyes at me despite the fact that they have change in the pot and have a full rack. I will occasionally explain that I am holding the white for the cocktail waitress, but it still irritates me that I have to justify myself.
A good dealer should always be more than willing to make change (unless their rack is really short). A good dealer wants to make sure everyone at the table has an ample supply of white chips. Those are the primary chips players tip dealers with. A good dealer finds every reason to overload players with white chips.