pokertda.com rule 14 query
14: Live Cards at Showdown
- Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.
***QUESTION***
How to understand this rule?
surely the word 'discarding' means similarly to 'mucking' in which case the hand will be declared dead?
And even if they are not technically in the muck, the word 'discarding' also implies a forward movement, which in itself can be interpreted as 'mucking'.
2 Replies
That’s one of the biggest myths in poker. ONLY the dealer can muck a hand (or at least that’s how it should work). Mucking a hand is the act of mixing the cards with the muck - the burn cards and other previously mucked cards - so as to make the hand unidentifiable. A player can only discard his hand - toss cards forward toward the center of the table. In most cases discarding leads to mucking. But the application of rule 14 is that this isn’t necessarily true. It would only apply to a player not facing action, I.e. at showdown once action is complete. At showdown a player may ask to retrieve and table a hand even after he discards it, so long as the hand has not yet been mucked by the dealer.
If a player is facing a bet, this is different. This is a fold and the player may not change his mind and get his hand back. His hand is indeed dead upon discarding it in that case.
Thanks for your reply.
I now have another related question.
After studying the many rules related to cards being mucked there appears to be some inconsistencies.
1. Roberts Rules of Poker 3.3.2 - allows mucked cards that are identifiable and retrievable to be made live again if the TD believes it would be in the best interests of the game.
2. pokertda.com rule 13 - implies that the concept of 'identifiable and retrievable' again can bail out a player who finds their cards in the muck.
3. pokertda.com rule 14 - explores the concept of 'discarding' as opposed to 'mucking' and once again allows for a player to fall back on the rule of 'identifiable and retrievable' to get them out of trouble.
4. pokertda.com rule 15 - again allows players to fall back on the concept of 'identifiable and retrievable' to bail them out of a player error.
5. pokertda.com rule 65 - "if the dealer kills a hand by mistake ..... the player has no redress..". While this rule also talks about "identifiable and retrievable" it is as relates to a fouled hand and not a dealer error.
So the confusion seems quite obvious.
Points 1 to 4 seem to allow players who effectively make a mistake to have redress, while point 5 gives harsher consequences for events out of the players control (dealer error).
Logically this should be the other way around I would have thought?
