$5 bring in
I played 1/3 at Cincinnati HR recently, about 10 sessions over a few weeks. They were doing something I haven't seen before: other than blinds or all-ins, all bets had to be in multiples of $5. This sped the game up a fair bit, but also seemed to make the pre-flop pots a good bit bigger.
Certainly the rake inflection points got hit more quickly. A floor (or shift boss, I'm not sure of his rank) told me it had led to a 20 to 25 percent increase in rake, though some of that was because the game was faster (much less chip changing).
But more importantly, I'd heard, and the few times I played days, saw that the OMCs didn't like it. They were still showing up, but they had to put more money in play. This is a great anti-nit move.
So if the game plays faster and the action is better, why don't other clubs do this?
10 Replies
Most low stakes players do not like this. They came to play 1-2 or 1-3, often w/ appropriately sized max buy ins. Forcing larger bets will usually make casual players get more nitty. That can quickly turn a good or okay game into a terrible one.
I suspect rooms that implement this variant struggle to sustain a 2-5 or true red chip game and use this instead to maximize rake.
That Cinci game is terrible -- some of the worst rules in a poker game. You can straddle for $5. LOL. They have always had weird rules, though -- it's as if they are trying to do their own thing (although it's not the casino's fault).
Agree w/ 2RedCards -- having the $5 bring in makes it too big of a game for a lot of low-stakes players, so many fish/tourists who might play won't. If they do, they often bust quickly and don't come back or hnr. Not sure how it sped up the game enough to notice, but not worth it if you want a true low-stakes game.
When they had a true low-stakes game (can't remember if it was 1/2 or 1/3), the 2/5 was truly terrible, so maybe that has gotten better? I'll be there this weekend. I usually play PLO, but if I sit in any NLHE games, I'll report back.
Not "most low-stakes players." Most nits. But though I couldn't appraise the truth of their statements, two people, one reg and one dealer, said the nits didn't like it but did keep playing.
The only evidence of nit anger I witnessed was during two daytime sessions I played, where, with a couple of limps ahead of me, I'd standard make it 15, and get dirty looks because apparently it's an unwritten rule that everyone limps to chase for jackpots or high hands, no raising allowed, enforced by peer-pressure I guess.
The dumbest thing a room can do is worry about mis-regs. The worse that can happen is they stop coming in, and they don't. The best that can happen is they have to put money in the pot.
The games I was in seemed to have a lot of $40-$50 pots pre-flop (one raise, a couple of calls), which is all you need to make the game okay. Even 4 limpers gives everyone something to fight for post.
One oddity: 12% rake, up to 6. Whatever, I'm not applauding the room overall, I'm just suggesting a way to speed up the game, and raise the stakes (necessary considering inflation).
Another oddity: no chip runners, even for fills? First time playing, asked for chips when I got my seat, they said go to the cage, and bring back a rack of white, too, please.
They definitely had chip runners last time I was there. It is a pain when the cage closes due to no employee to cover it and you have to go wait in the long casino line. We've left with stacks of chips multiple times. Heading there in a few hours and will report!
If there’s lots of limping, you are essentially playing a 5 dollar blind game and not a true 1/3 game. The PLO games I’ve played with this structure play more like a 2/5 or 3/5 game, and I suspect it will be similar for hold em, since most people raise bigger at low stakes anyway. It really should not make the game worse for true rocks, as they are not putting much money in voluntarily anyway, so they should still be able to sit through the blinds. If everyone else is playing like it’s 2/5 and they are not, this should actually give their strategy a slight boost, and not make them play looser. It’s possible that the people you think are nits are just bad players.
Because the game should cater around recreational and amateur players, whom make up 90% of the clientele, rather than doing everything to ensure the pros, grinders and misregs are able to squeeze out every possible cent of EV. If you want a game where it's $5 to limp, go play 2/5. By your logic, why don't we just make the smallest stakes in every room 10/25? Really fuck over those nits and amateurs amirite?!?! Make those pots bigger!
Fun fact for all the winner players out there - You are in the customer service business. Happy customers is good for you long term. A player who feels a game is too big for them is unlikely to play next time. But hey, congrats on winning their $200 buyin 8% faster than normal! Hope you're okay increasing the risk that player chooses to go play some other casino game next time.
I would also be interested to see the data that shows the games was faster. I can't fathom the difference is significant. I think we're overstating how often a dealer has to make change for a $5 and how long it really takes. I know there are bad dealers who would cause delays, but if they are that bad, they are slowing the game down in a dozen other ways too.
The dumbest thing a room can do is worry about mis-regs. The worse that can happen is they stop coming in, and they don't. The best that can happen is they have to put money in the pot.
Rooms actually need bad regs in order to survive. They sit there for long hours and fill seats. The rooms actually would prefer people limping in for hours and hours, slowly bleeding away chips at the table. Don’t confuse what you would prefer with what the casino would prefer.
Actually what most rooms want is more money, and apparently they've been dropping considerably more since this change. Rooms don't want a series of 3-to-a-flop with no raise pre, then a bet and folds post-flop, for a min rake. They want $50+ in the middle every time. Dealers want that, too. You should want that.
And "bad regs" isn't the same as "mis regs." Bad players are always welcome. GOMCs (grumpy old man coffees) hurt the game vibe and hurt the action. You get the GOMCs out of the house, everyone else is happier, and happier players and staff makes for better action which makes for more rake paid in.
But it also doesn't matter what the GOMCs want because they aren't going anywhere. And if they did go to a competitor room, great. That room fills up with GOMCs, their games get suckier, their true gamblers start looking for better games, and they'd find it at your room.
But you were correct, even if it was said without self-awareness, when you said, "Don’t confuse what you would prefer with what the casino would prefer."
Because the game should cater around recreational and amateur players, whom make up 90% of the clientele, rather than doing everything to ensure the pros, grinders and misregs are able to squeeze out every possible cent of EV. If you want a game where it's $5 to limp, go play 2/5. By your logic, why don't we just make the smallest stakes in every room 10/25? Really fuck over th
This is childish. And making the games all 10/25 is not my logic, or anyone else's, it's just your attempt to misrepresent my point, in order to have an opposition point you can beat. It's called straw man, but, whatever.
Trying to help the game-size keep pace with inflation is NOT fucking over nits and amateurs.
But there is a win-win path here: just open up a .50/$1 game for you and your friends, and let everyone else play poker, okay?
Because poker entails risk, and to the extent you remove the (relative) risk, you remove the poker.
Suppose you're used to playing 2/4. And a few years later, they drop it to 1.5/$3. Then another few years later, drop it down to 1/2, And then a few years after that, drop it down to .5/$1.
Because, even if you can't see it, that's what's been happening in poker, via inflation. If you're playing 1/2 now, and were playing 1/2 twenty years ago ... your game size has been seriously shrunk.
This is childish. And making the games all 10/25 is not my logic, or anyone else's, it's just your attempt to misrepresent my point, in order to have an opposition point you can beat. It's called straw man, but, whatever.Trying to help the game-size keep pace with inflation is NOT ****ing over nits and amateurs. But there is a win-win path here: just open up a .50/$1 game fo
So you feel that rather than let the customers decide what they want the casino should only care about what you want. As has been pointed out there is a 2-5 option for those that want to play those stakes.
This is childish. And making the games all 10/25 is not my logic, or anyone else's, it's just your attempt to misrepresent my point, in order to have an opposition point you can beat. It's called straw man, but, whatever.Trying to help the game-size keep pace with inflation is NOT fucking over nits and amateurs.
What is it called when you take one hyperbolic sentence from an argument, counter that, and ignore all the other points I made?
Also... just so I'm clear;
Me saying "If you want to play a bigger game, go play a bigger game" = Bad
You saying "If you want to play a smaller game, go play a smaller game" = Good
Got it. Especially considering the vast majority of rooms/markets have a 2/5 game running somewhere. Very few have smaller than 1/2 or 1/3.
Again, the majority of poker players are losing players. The amateurs, recs, nits, fun players, etc. They make up 80-85% of the clientele and thus, poker rooms should do what they can to cater to them rather than the other 15-20% of pros, grinders and misregs that just look to squeeze every cent of EV they can in every situation.
As a winning player, I understand things like this would likely generate a higher EV for me in the short term. My concern is that a change like this will upset and annoy enough losing players that some of them decide not to play as the game feels too big for them and would thus risk lowering my EV over the long run.
