Possibly the stupidest hand I've ever seen. Fold pre?
2/5, $1k max, 9 handed.
Hero - UTG+3, ~$1200, MAWG. TAG. Never limping. Not much flat calling pre. Mostly raising or folding pre. Aggressively check-raising flops, over-betting turns, and going for max value on the river. Playing well and seems to have a solid table image. Showed one huge bluff a few hours earlier, but not getting out of line much, if at all.
V1 - UTG, ~$600, middle-aged Asian Indian fellow. Recently joined the table, maybe 2 orbits earlier. Seems stabby-splashy-spewy - lots of limping/flatting pre, not much raising/3B'ing, mostly flat-calling post-flop, with both strong and weak value, sometimes stabbing when action gets checked to him.
V2 - HJ, ~$230, MAWG. Stuck on the session, typical loose-stabby rec-fish. Has seen hero get max value with his monsters as well as make huge bluffs. Never believes hero or anyone else has a hand unless he sees it, so calls down pretty wide. Equally prone to over-playing weak value and slow-playing thick value.
V3 - BTN, covers everyone. Asian kid in his 20's. Opening lots of pots and calling raises from LP or the blinds, occasionally 3B'ing, and frequently luck-boxing his way into winning big pots. Apparently doesn't want to play hero on later streets, based on his table talk and his making some nonsensical, overly-aggro plays in weird spots, like turning semi-strong hands into massive over-bet bluffs in way ahead / way behind situations on flop or turn.
OTTH:
V1 in UTG limps, one other EP limp. $17 in pot.
Hero in UTG+3 raises to $35 with 76dd.
V2 in HJ calls. V3 on BTN calls. Blinds fold. $122 in pot.
V1 in UTG back-3B's to $135. $252 in pot.
Hero in UTG+3 calls. $352 in pot.
V2 in HJ back-4B-LOL-jams for $230. $482 in pot.
V3 on BTN back-5B-WTF-jams, covering everyone.
V1 calls the jam for his last $465. Not exactly a fist-pump snap-call. More like a "I probably messed this up, but can't fold now" insta-call.
Hero has $1065 behind. Not sure if I'm doing the math right, but I think the pot is $2642 before I call, laying me 2.5 to 1.
So...yeah, never been here before. Maybe I should have folded to V1's 3B (or 4B?), but...
76s can't possibly be the best hand here, and every instinct I have said I should fold, but it doesn't look to me like V1 has AA, and even if he did, how strong can V2 and V3 be, the way they've played this?
Why do I think everyone here is pushing with the most marginal or downright insane BS, and I may not be worse than a 2.5 to 1 dog here? Should this ever be a call?
Will post reveal tomorrow.
76s is fine as an overlimp the only thing I have a problem with is position. I'd overlimp without hesitation from CO and maybe HJ but LJ just feels like it's asking for trouble. Low frequency raise is alright as well but it feels like folding 70+% of the time is most sensible
Over-limping from MP doesn't fit well into a raise or fold strategy, so I frequently end up in one-way-or-the-other situations with hands that are fairly cuspy like this. I should probably be folding at a higher freq, but the discipline starts to wain late in a session, when I'm card-dead, or when I'm stuck. This occasion included all three conditions.
I overlimp sometimes, but not with this hand in this position. It doesn't play well at multiway. Fold is best. Definitely fold to action. Don't play a big pot preflop with it. Maybe you were playing too loose and started raising junk hands you would have limped, but building the pot with them does not make it better. Here, limp/folding. even if it looks weak, would be much better than raising, calling a 3! and then calling a 5!.
BTN is the only person covering you and he's on the BTN and likes to overplay mid hands? Shrug open fold a lot.
Without that BTN problem I don't mind limping along, ISO raise is too big and just a bad hand/position to do it doing it sometimes for balance just can't make up for the fact you really need folds you won't be getting.
After that just fold.
You don't want to limp a marginal hand, so you are going allin with it?
Everyone can breathe a sigh of relief. Please put away the pitchforks and torches. Hero folded.
I appreciate everyone confirming that decision. It's interesting to see how divided opinions seem to be about how 76s should be played when the action first gets to me pre.
Not to sound defensive of my decision to initially call V1's 3B, but at the time, getting over 2.5 to 1, and figuring V2 and V3 might come along or might fold, not expecting them to jam, and knowing I could outplay them all, it seemed too nitty to fold, getting those odds and having position on V1. Live and learn, for me, perhaps.
Seeing their hands and how things played out though...
Spoiler
V2 in CO turns over 76cc. V3 turns over AJhh. V1 turns over AJss. The flop came 7-high. V2 held to scoop the $935 main pot we would have split (it would have been $1065). V1 and V3 pulled their stacks back - chopping the massive side pot that would have been $2205 (I think) and that I would have won if I'd called.
I know being upset about it seems like results orientation. But watching everyone stack the chips I could have been stacking, all I could think was, "GODDAMMITALL!!! I EFFING KNEW IT!!!"
What was tilting is that based on the way the hand played out, I was fairly certain about what everyone's range looked like. I didn't think V3 would flat call and then back-jam with 88-JJ. I figured I was up against 2 suited ace-Broadway combos with V1 and V3, and thought I could be up against some middling suited connector with V2.
Doing my best quick poker math in my head, it seemed like I was getting the correct odds to call, but that seemed crazy with 7-high. Plugging the exact hands into an equity calculator shows they all have about a 9% chance to scoop overall, but I was actually around 40% against V1 and V3 for the side-pot.
I understand everyone saying that calling the jam is torching money. I felt the same way, which is why I folded. But I was being laid over 2.5 to 1, and actually had more than enough equity to call - assuming I was right about the ranges, which I was, but of course I could have been very wrong.
I folded because it was late in the session, it was my entire stack at risk, and I was concerned that V2's range interacted with my hand too much. Maybe some pros flick in the call there, but I doubt it would be many, and I don't see any low-stakes regs doing it.
I hope everyone found this stupid hand and the pain it caused me entertaining. Some good should come from such shenanigans.
BTN is the only person covering you and he's on the BTN and likes to overplay mid hands? Shrug open fold a lot.
Without that BTN problem I don't mind limping along, ISO raise is too big and just a bad hand/position to do it doing it sometimes for balance just can't make up for the fact you really need folds you won't be getting.
After that just fold.
I think you're looking at the description of CO, unless you're inferring that BTN also overplay mid-hands. I suppose that could be inferred, though it was something I'd seen him do post-flop, not pre-flop.
Going all-in doesn't necessarily follow from open-raising rather than over-limping. I can raise-fold, obviously. See spoiler in my post above.
Respectfully, I disagree with this. We are only putting 1 big blind here preflop with our overlimp. We don't care about ourselves having low equity if we are putting such a tiny part of stack in on the preflop street. We don't have to put a whole bunch of money in postflop against the whole field with a baby flush if we don't want to do so.
If you are scared of getting overflushed, just fold your 7 high FD postflop if you face a significant postflop bet in front of you with multiple players left
Everyone else is putting 1 big blind in as well, so thats irrelevant. Folding the flush is sorta the problem. Like yeah i get into pots to not ever stack anyone, thats great. i dont see why youd wanna play a high SPR pot multiway OOP with a hand that very rarely hits the nuts. This is a classic hand with RIO multiway.
Here is it getting talked about by two pros. They said low SCs are OK but proceed with caution. They even gave 86s as an example hand to fold. and i genuinely see absolutely no reason youre INTENTIONALLY choosing an action that sends the hand multiway more often and with higher SPR with a hand thats ok but not ideal multiway.
https://youtu.be/EuDEYfc7nac?si=OIvVeuNH...
We arent talking about a situation where we are happening to get into a multiway pot, or where we close the action, we are talking about a situation where you are going against the VERY FIRST ADVICE FISH GET GIVEN BY PROS (dont ****ing limp) in order to get the excellent result of playing an extremely marginal hand multiway OOP with tons of preflop action left to go. Play aggressive, this is fish behavior.
The funny thing is that the exact same 2 pros who you referred to in that video also have literally given the advice of "overlimping isn't so bad" for soft live NLHE games specifically.
That video link that you referred to is a general strategy video that isn't SPECIFICALLY targeting soft live NLHE games. In fact, in that video you linked, they were warning against overcalling small SCs from the blind when there was an RFI and a caller in front of you in online 6max or tougher live NLHE games.
That's a much difference situation than facing 2 EP limps with 76dd in MP in a soft 9 handed low stakes NLHE game.
Things that don't work well in online 6max can actually work pretty well in a 9 handed soft live NLHE game.
It's important to know the context of the advice that you are receiving. Some of the audience for that video you shared is an online 6max audience.
I don't know about you guys, but I am pretty happy with 76dd when I make a straight postflop. Typically, straights make a ton of money for big pots and even super huge pots.
It's not a big deal if we make a second best flush or second best 2pair if we are good at hand reading and postflop play.
I hate to say this, but this is the bread and butter spot for the great poker players. Postflop skills and hand reading are where the men are separated from the boys. Sooner or later, you will need to learn how to get maximum value from hands that are not the stone cold nuts. And you will need to learn how to lose the minimum when you have the second best flush or second best 2 pair.
FWIW, if this was a VERY HIGHLY RAKED game and the two EP limpers were tight short stacked regs, then I would be fine with just folding 76dd here.
1st raise is good. Is a tad large but totally fine
Everything after that is ******ed
As played there is zero chance you have 28% equity. So fold. Obviously
The funny thing is that the exact same 2 pros who you referred to in that video also have literally given the advice of "overlimping isn't so bad" for soft live NLHE games specifically.
That video link that you referred to is a general strategy video that isn't SPECIFICALLY targeting soft live NLHE games. In fact, in that video you linked, they were warning against overcalling small SCs from the blind when there was an RFI and a caller in front of you in online 6max or tougher live NLHE games.
Tha
The very start they say this is the top question asked by live players. These players are online players, yes, but in online games, overcalling from the binds with hands like 76s is a WAY better spot than limping in EP, because youre closing the action and youre already invested in the pot, so you have pot odds.
And yes, overlimping isnt so bad, with THE RIGHT HANDS. which is primarily low PPs and Axs. Its not 76s. Also, again “not so bad” isnt the wonderful evidence in favor of your strategy as you think. Limping is extremely situational, and can safely be ignored for the literal exact reason here, which is that non pros dont know how to do it and do dumb **** that sets money on fire like limp/calling from EP 6 ways with 76s.
I would fold initially, but raising and limping are OK. With all the action, it is nice you would have chopped and they were gambooling with whatever. However, I would want JJ/AK to gii. The limp/3! could easily be AA/KK.
I don't know about you guys, but I am pretty happy with 76dd when I make a straight postflop. Typically, straights make a ton of money for big pots and even super huge pots.
It's not a big deal if we make a second best flush or second best 2pair if we are good at hand reading and postflop play.
I hate to say this, but this is the bread and butter spot for the great poker players. Postflop skills and hand reading are where the men are separated from the boys. Sooner or later, you will need to learn
This is the textbook response to critiques on preflop play, is to go on an egotistical rant about postflop play. This is a forum for giving advice to players, and OP is a 1/3 player. Get a grip Ivey.
The hand seems like 1/2.
seems like a great game.
There is no such thing as a 2/5 player or a 1/3 player. The sooner you detach from the idea that dif stakes have some status attached to them the better off you'll be
Its poker and holding on to the idea that you're a "2/5 player" will prevent you from moving down when your bankroll requires it and will make moving up in stakes close to impossible bc you think 5T players are a different class of player than 2/5
At these stack depths, raising 76s over some limps is loose but it's still what a large portion of winning players would do
BUT
Calling the 3bet is not a winning play for anyone on earth other than potripper, postle and the dude on gg. Even if everyone else just calls the 3bet there's just not enough room to maneuver post flop and you'll be forced to essentially commit yourself when the shorties shove. Which will happen >60% of flops
You have work to do on the fundamentals of preflop strat and math behind pot odds
There is no such thing as a 2/5 player or a 1/3 player. The sooner you detach from the idea that dif stakes have some status attached to them the better off you'll be
Its poker and holding on to the idea that you're a "2/5 player" will prevent you from moving down when your bankroll requires it and will make moving up in stakes close to impossible bc you think 5T players are a different class of player than 2/5
At these stack depths, raising 76s over some limps is loose but it's still what a large
+1
I would have folded to the 3-bet simply because of the short stack behind me yet to act., you no he's not calling ---its fold/shove mode for him
Grunch: I would have folded to the 3bet, and I definitely fold now unless I just want to gamble.
Just saw results: what would you have done had they flipped their hands pre-flop? Snap fold, I hope, so don't fret over it.
To be fair I've lost count of the number of times I've setup a fold or jam spot for the short stack only for them to call.
Very true. It happens a lot at low stakes.
Obviously I wasn't trying to set up a jam or fold spot for V2, and I already admitted I didn't stop to check his stack size before calling the 3B. But even if I had, I'm not sure if I would have given him credit for seeing it as a jam or fold spot, given the way he'd been playing.
If I stopped to check his stack size, and if I thought he was better, I might have been more likely to fold. But my reasoning for calling the 3B was that I figured both he and V3 would either fold and I'd get to play HU / IP with dead money in the pot, or they'd come along by just flatting, giving me huge implied odds to try and smash the flop.
Grunch: I would have folded to the 3bet, and I definitely fold now unless I just want to gamble.
Just saw results: what would you have done had they flipped their hands pre-flop? Snap fold, I hope, so don't fret over it.
I thought about folding to the 3B. But his raise sizing and timing, combined with my read, made me think he wasn't really all that strong, and that his limp-back raise was something he came up with on the spot after V2 and V3 flat called my raise, not something he planned to do with AA/KK. I was putting him on AJs/ATs, maybe some KQs/KJs.
Crazy as it sounds - I actually contemplated a 4B-bluff for a split-second. Yes, I know - madness and pure shenanigans. I may be beyond help.
Still - fold 76 there, all the time, yes, yes...but...getting 2.5 to 1 on a call, IP, with dead money in the pot, a skill edge, and enough stack depth to think he's not jamming every flop...feels like we could call there at least some of the time.
If they flipped over their cards, I wouldn't have been shocked to see their hands, given how face-up they all were anyway. So, no, definitely wouldn't have called, especially seeing V2 had the same hand, reducing my pot odds immensely - fewer outs and more chops when we catch.
My main point wasn't that I should have called. I think most players would insta-fold there. But thinking that some pros might say it's an odds-based call at equilibrium slowed me down. And seeing the cards made the hand seem worth some discussion.
Most hands I play aren't worth discussing.
