OOP 3-Way vs. Loose Passives, in Theory
None of the poker theory classics have prepared me for a theoretical hand like this one. Perhaps 2+2 can.
1/2. Rake is 6+3+1.
V1 (250) is a loose passive. He has a fold button on the flop.
V2 (250) is a loose passive calling station.
Hero covers. Hero’s UTG opening range is 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs+, JTs, A5s, AQo. Vs pay hero no attention.
OTTH
Hero UTG raises to 10. V1 in MP and V2 in LP call.
What hands does hero lead the flop? By how much?
Heads-up against V1, I would bet my value and c-bet always sd/fd, most two overs, and some backdoor draws, large on wet flops and small on dry ones. But 3-way with V2? Hero checks the draws. Hero bets only for value. 3-way, oop, hero bets large with strong hands like two pair and small with hands like KQss on a KJ8cch flop, leaning more towards the small bets.
9 Replies
First of all I find a game with a better rake.
Secondly I don't bluff into loose passives, especially OOP and especially to two of them.
On a K-J-8 FD my lightest c-bet is going to be T9s with the BDFD, maybe not even that.
On a general note, when you are playing against more than one player, and one of them is severely deviating from “theory,” you can throw theory out the window. So while this is an abstract discussion, it’s not a theory discussion.
Also, I think your very first inclination against 2 loose-passives is wrong. Here’s just one counterexample. If I am acting first on a flop and I have the nut flush draw, I would strongly consider a small bet into both of them. If they do not raise, my small bet will capture an equity edge and allow me to bet bigger into a bigger pot later if I hit.
Also, on a board like KJ8, against loose-passives, betting big with KJ but small with KQ makes no sense. The hands in between these two are AK, J8 and K8. Loose-passives are calling WAY wider than that. So if betting big with KJ is correct, betting big with KQ must also be correct.
Playing online under a HUD, I had my biggest leak in flop aggression. Old habits die hard.
Are you saying that three-way, it’s always a small bet in this scenario?
No, but I’m saying it’s an option that should be on the table. It’s not necessarily meant as a semi-bluff; it’s meant as an equity-collecting bet.
For example let’s say the board is KJ8 with two of your suit while you have AQs. So you have the nut flush draw and a gutshot, plus one overcard. Your equity against their ranges is enormous; and your equity against their continuing range is still very good. As long as the bet size on the flop isn’t too big, you gain an edge from your equity share of the bet they are putting in. (This is if they both call, but you’re still in pretty good shape if only one calls too.)
There's really no cookie cutter strategy, it depends on the flop texture, your image, your villains and their tendencies, and most importantly the effective stack sizes.
For example if they're both weak fit or fold people, I'm betting most all flops. If they're sticky, I would want at least a pair to continue, unless stacks were deep and I can possibly bet small otf to narrow their range as weak and much bigger ott if I get it heads up, and everything in between.
That rake is horrific. I say this every time, but if it is a rake based on % of the pot you will minimize that by betting amounts that create pot sizes of like 28 or 36 rather than closer to 20 and 30. I would also raise bigger because Vs will call, Vs don't adjust to pot size and because you just want to play bigger with that rake. Especially with these shallow stacks, it is just a terrible situation. So raise to at least 12, maybe like 16. Don't worry about the theoretical implications of this because it's live 1/2 and also it sounds like half the pot disappears on the flop anyway. I'm thinking $16 or 17 would be my standard open.
Hard to answer the question for all hands, but you want to bet a smaller % of the pot multiway. I guess another way to minimize rake could be to do a lot of checking and check raising. I think most places don't count until the money is dragged into the middle. Villains are not used to this. In the last couple years, I've tried to take a lot of more unusual lines because people haven't seen them a million times and I think they make more mistakes than I do.
So I would be pretty nitty pre, with some squeezes for big sizes to get lots of folds or big pots and then play big pots with lots of CRs and big bluffs post.
So your rake + tip is $1 more than I pay at MGM National Harbor, and it's still on the low side in 2024.
There's really no need to include the tip or even the promo, since the former is standard in every US cardroom, and the latter technically is EV neutral unless management is skimming from the promo fund.
