5/10 Rate this reg's play
5/10/20 $1500 deep
Rake max $25
8 handed
UTG+1 is a TAG 30ish Japanese reg. Have seen him play for a few hours, haven't seen many showdowns but he
doesn't seem to get too out of line.
UTG+1 (Villain) OR 50 with K♣ Q♣
I'm on his immediate left with A♠ J♠ and 3bet to 175.
Folds back to him and he 4bets to 425. I call.
Flop A♠ T♦ T♥
Villain bets 200 into pot of 840.
I call
Pot now 1240.
Turn is 6♥
Villain bets 350.
I call
Pot now 1940 with 525 effective left.
River is J♥
Villain shoves and I call and lose to his straight.
I can't see how I could have played this much differently tho happy to hear any criticisms.
I'm mostly curious of opinions of Villain's flop and turn bet sizes, and what conclusions
about his play might be drawn from them.
7 Replies
KQs is probably not the best candidate to 4bet given it lacks blockers to your Ax hands; it also tends to be a classic hand to flat vs a 3bet. If he 4bets KQs every time, it's probably a mistake, but if he does it something like 10% of the time, I can live with.
You are 75BB deep. His 4bet size is fine. Choosing to cbet the A high board is fine. His cbet size is fine.
The turn is the most problematic part of the hand. I am not sure what he should be bluffing with here. His overall 4betting range s
Turn sizing is fine by him. It puts all of the non A-x pocket pairs into a really annoying spot, basically making them indifferent in theory. Its a more efficient size than a shove.
Damn almost forgot I posted this one 😀 Some interesting responses thanks - I'm surprised that some would consider folding AJs preflop! Two points to note: 1) It's 8-player, so he's only actually one off the LJ seat. 2) He's a youngish Asian guy - here in Australia at least that means he's unlikely to be very tight preflop. Also I've been a student of Bart Hanson for some years, and follow Bart's advice to reraise EP vs EP to knock out players behind you (it also discourages squeezing. Ti
Re-reading the OP, it occurs to me that your reads may need development. You said V doesn't seem to get out of line, but then we know he's 4B'ing pre with KQs, which generally isn't 4B, to a size which pot commits him, or close enough to it.
So, based on your read, we should probably fold AJ pre. It's just going to be dominated too often. In fact, even if we know this guy is capable of 4B'ing KQs, I'd think that would be near the bottom of his 4B range, and we'd still be doing poorly against his 4B range as a whole.
As for his play - it's against the rules to do reverse hand histories. You're not exactly doing that here, but it's close, if you're asking us to critique HIS play, rather than YOUR play.
That said, I doubt I'll get scolded for giving a response, so...
Post-flop, in a 4B pot, he's supposed to c-bet small, even smaller than 1/3 pot, because it won't be hard to get stacks in by the river. His $200 bet into $840 seems fine to me. Maybe a tad too small or too large, since I'm not certain exactly what size he should be taking, but I'd guess he's in the right ballpark.
I wouldn't 4B KQ pre, but if I did, I doubt I'd slow down on the turn here, against most opponents, since I'd expect most opponents to get it in pre with AA, and probably AK. and fold TT and all TX. When the BDFD appears on the turn, if I'm repping AA or AK, I'd continue to barrel, just like V did here, though I'd probably just jam at that point, not bet small.
I'd prefer to jam as V because you're pretty capped at AQ/AJ or KK/QQ, so what can you do but fold to my jam?
That said, I don't think his small bet is a huge error, because A) he's bluffing with just an ISSD on a two-flush board, and B) you might not fold AQ/AJ just yet, especially if C) you picked up a flush draw, or just have the Ah in your hand. I could see playing AA or AK this way, especially if I had the Ah in my hand, or had AKhh, so it's not like he's unbalanced by betting small on the turn.
Pot is actually fairly standard for a reg who is playing a polar 4b strategy. Especially in a live rake environment from very early positions KQs functions well as a 4b. AJs is a marginal call to the 4b though, but can be okay.
I'd prefer going smaller on the flop. I like to go one size in 4b pots on Ace high boards, 15% pot. Some people prefer 10% pot. The board is fairly static. No high equity draws on the flop AA is basically the nuts and AK, AQ is pretty close to the nuts as well. If he's betting with full range then KK likes a small bet as well, can still get called once by QQ and your gutters to broadway. This also leaves him ammunition for the turn and river to be a little more polar on future streets when he bets flop smaller.
As played he really doesn't get to bluff too much on the turn or river. It depends on how he constructs his 4b range in that spot, but his play is probably fine at some frequency. It is a geometric size and if he did have AK, AA, it would be a decent size to get stacks in by the river.
We can't fold the river.
Overall villain's play is fine. It's not a spot he is loving on the turn, but if he didnt 4b hands like KQs, then people might not call him with AJs, which he definitely wants when has hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK.
Oh cool I just realized this is an older thread I already commented on.
Preflop I might just call an EP raise with this hand, provided that people still to act are not particularly squeeze-happy. 3betting cannot be bad anyway.
That being said, I think it is a pretty clear fold to the 4bet (and I like V's 4bet with KQs).
As played, flop is fairly standard.
At this spr, I like shoving turn better than calling.
As played, OTR we do not beat any value, so it's all about V's bluffing frequency. In a vacuum, I don't think I would be able to fold for that price.
From V's perspective, stacks are way too shallow for a 3 streets bluff, so I do not quite understand his smallish bet ott. Imo he should either give up and check or bluff shove.
Responding to this bit specifically:
...Two points to note: 1) It's 8-player, so he's only actually one off the LJ seat. 2) He's a youngish Asian guy - here in Australia at least that means he's unlikely to be very tight preflop. Also I've been a student of Bart Hanson for some years, and follow Bart's advice to reraise EP vs EP to knock out players behind you (it also discourages squeezing. Tighter players will also sometimes make some crazy folds - never seen a player fold AKo pf to a single 3bet? I've seen it multiple times.)
Again, you said in the OP he didn't seem to be getting out of line. Now you're saying he's unlikely to be very tight pre. Which is it?
If we think he's getting out of line pre-flop, I'm fine with the 3B, to fold out the rest of the field, and get this heads up, in position, and likely good equity against his raise-call range. If we don't think he's getting out of line, I think I'd just flat call, not 3B.
Many loose players will open wide, but won't necessarily 4B wide. It's pretty unusual to see someone 4B light at low stakes, especially with a hand that plays better as a flat call, and take a sizing that is right on the cusp of pot-committing themselves to get the rest in. We'd have to give him a very wide 4B'ing range to think AJs is good enough to call.
That said, even if we do assign him a very wide range, when he takes this 1/3 stack sizing pre, I wonder if we wouldn't be better off 5B jamming, putting max pressure on him to release, and at least guaranteeing we see all five cards if he calls. If we just flat call, the SPR is going to be low enough (basically 1 SPR) post-flop that our positional advantage will be fairly minimized.
If he's tight, a 5B jam should fold out everything worse than AA/KK/AK. If he's loose, he should have a ton of hands in his range that will turbo-fold. Once we flat call, V is likely to c-bet most flops, and could barrel off, since he'll have a range advantage, if not a nut advantage, on most boards, as the pre-flop 4B'er. With just 1 SPR, it'll be hard for us to navigate.
I wouldn't mind a fold pre. I wouldn't hate a jam pre. I think flatting pre is the worst option, against both the population, who will generally have AJs dominated, and against this specific V, who we believe to be LAG, and capable of blasting off post-flop, with both value and bluffs.
As for the river, with all due respect to those saying we have to call, I can't see what worse hands V can have that go bet-bet-bet for a small size on every street, when it's a paired board, and the Jh on the river brings in all of hero's flush and straight draws, and possibly makes hero top 2P.
He'd have to be really spewy, and continuing to barrel with AK/AQ, to think our hand is good. But if he's that spewy, he can also have TT, AT, and maybe even some worse TX, and of course KQ and some flushes that got there. Seems like he's going to have many more hands that beat us than hands we beat.
If we were going to call off on the river on a straight and flush completing card, which I take to mean we're calling no matter what the river card is, I'd think we'd want to just jam turn over V's 30% pot bet, to deny equity from hands exactly like the one V has, and make sure he can't get away if he's on a draw that bricks.
It's pure spew by him and he got lucky.
KQs doesn't do a lot of 4betting
Than again AJs doesn't do a lot of 3betting so maybe he's just adjusting to how wide you 3bet?...
Interesting that KJs/KTs are almost pure 3!s. Would not have guessed that. Or that 65s has a 3! range. I guess we do have a 3! range while holding a T.