Difficult spot deepstack 5/5 vs action player

Its too much of a live spot to give a definitive answer but AKKr boards are severely under bluffed.

Pre seems marginal at best both times assuming full ring.

SB probably has something like AQ assuming the tank was genuine. I proobably raise flop to the c-bet

As played I'm calling flop, but not exactly happy, and couldn't fault a fold. CO raised into a c-bet that hit SBs 3-bet range. Feel a bluff or an Ace is unlikely.

On Turn, he sized it for stacks on river, so our decision is now, and I feel we just have to sigh fold here.

I agree with hithchens97 regarding pre - I play in these games in the east where most players are 500 bb's+ deep and especially with aggressive players in the game, I wouldn't open to 8x UTG+1 with KTs or called the 3bet. I prefer flatting if we're setmining with good odds or at least have a high suited ace.

The 3x raise otf isn't usually a bluff with 3 players in a 3bet pot in live poker (at least in the games I play in). This does look like a cooler.

We're not opening 8x we're isolating a limper, there is a very big difference. KTs is definitely good enough to iso and the sizing just depends on table dynamics. Now once we get 3bet it's important to consider how deep we are and the sizing we're facing. Only need to call 85 more to play a 3 bet pot with two whales and we have a suited Broadway. No decision preflop these guys have very wide ranges I can't come anywhere near justifying a fold pre in this dynamic over 400bb eff w both players.

Don't see how you can continue in this hand - VIP1 would have to be getting so insanely out of line to continue here - unless you have some live reads we don't I would be snap folding.

Wow. Talk about a spot.

PRE - I don't mind the iso-raise with KTs from UTG1 over the UTG limper, but I probably wouldn't go as big as 8x, if we want the whales behind us in the pot. I'd instinctively think that raise sizing would narrow their ranges, whereas we'd want to keep their ranges wider. But if you've seen them calling big opens from EP wide when they're in LP or the blinds, okay, I can get behind it.

FLOP - Obviously we're not folding to VIP2 / SB's c-bet. But VIP1's raise from the CO is concerning, given your description, specifically him not showing down any bluffs, and mostly calling rather than raising post-flop. We're not folding yet, obviously, but...

TURN - Sometimes when V asks for a count of our stack, it's a sign of weakness. I guess psychologically, V wouldn't be thinking about our stack size if he was nutted, or close to it, and would just bet for max value.

His $600 bet into a ~$1200 pot could be him milking you for value and setting up a big river jam, or it could be him trying to find an efficient bet size with a worse Kx, worrying that you're only going to call if he's beat.

Assuming he doesn't slow-play AKo by flatting your raise pre, and he's 3B'ing KQs or KJs pre, then you're only losing to KQo, KJo, and K6, right? If he's been playing somewhat passively, could he be in here with K9s, or even K9o?

He doesn't necessarily need to be "bluffing" here. He could possibly be value-betting a worse Kx, or he might also have KT.

Seems like this all comes down to how he plays AKo, KQ/KJ, and KT/K9 or worse Kx pre. If you think he's double-flatting with all of them, I might find the fold. But if he's more than likely 3B'ing with AK, KQ, and some KJs, then we may have to call and hope we're good.

I´m not folding in this dynamic. Yeah, its an underbluffed spot, but he´s repping pretty thinly.
I discount AK since he just flatted your initial open. Also, pretty likely VIP 2 had Ax.

I think his range is any suited Kx, KQo, some portion of KQs and KJs ( I think he´ll 3bet these at least some % of the time pre), some gutshot (low % with our blocker) and some total airball (low % in this spot in general).

Still, not folding to a guy yet who plays 25/50 and is stuck due to flipping a few stacks. I´m flatting, and face a tough river decision if he chooses to bet.

Thinking about this more...it seems odd to me that V would ask for "an EXACT count" after double-flatting pre and raising SB's c-bet on the flop. The whole line is just weird, and somewhat fishy.

I wouldn't expect V to double-flat with AK, KQs, or KJs. I'd expect him to 3B with all those hands. If he gets here with KQ or KJ, and feels confident enough to raise SB's c-bet over your call, why is he asking you for an exact count? That's something people do before making a speculative call pre-flop, or before they jam post-flop. It's not something tilted whales do with super-strong hands.

This smells like K9 or worse to me.

If we call the $600 on the turn, the pot will be $2400 and we'll have $1400 behind going to the river? If we call turn, I think we're committed to calling river.

8x is a bit much imo. I like going 5x over a limper. I think you may be starting to commit more to the pot preflop than your hand is really comfortable with and the continue range of opponents will be so strong, I think you have overshot the price that maximizes fold equity at a good price while isolating worse hand.

I think what you do on the turn really depends the type of things you are seeing at showdown from villain. Are you seeing him showing up overcalling 3bets with hands like K9s? Are you literally seeing no bluffs from him? Does he ever check down on rivers after playing aggressively on the two prior streets?

I think this is bordering on foldable on the turn. Your range that calls on the flop has to be so tight, this may be closer to the bottom than you might think. The burden of defending on the flop is way more on SB who would have all the KQ, AK, AA, KK, so we really don't need to defend much worse than Kx. And by the river, this really is the bottom of our range, so I don’t think calling turn and folding river are out of the question. We definitely should have KQ and KJ in our range on the river. I could see mainly folding KT, calling KQ, and being somewhat indifferent with KJ. And honestly maybe even leaning towards folding KTs at least some on the turn.

People surprise us though, especially VIPs. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually have a bluff or even a hand like AQ and they may check river. Another reason why callingthe turn to potentially fold river again is not out of the question.

Ooops I meant raise not open and UTG+1 over a limp I would raise 5 or 6x. When you go 8x, then you're cbet needs to be that much bigger, and you're turn bet, etc. I would rather have a PP here to flat the 3bet and I would much rather 4bet if I think the guy is so wide, but that's just me.

4bet is not out of the question, but we are getting a good price because of the silly 3bet size getting to play with position on one of the VIPs and we have a very playable hand. This nice thing about 4betting though is that we are more likely to get the capped CO out of the hand and either iso vs one VIP or take it down pre. The small 3bet size may be indicative of a BS hand from VIP2 also. In general when facing smaller 3bet sizes I think our play is to call more than usual. Also if we 4bet, we run the risk of the VIPs continuing anyways with hands like AQo, KQo, KJs, etc. If our we think our fold equity is lower than it should be, we might want to be more linear with JJ+, maybe TT, AQo+, AQs, maybe AJs.

It really comes down to our own playing style, and the risks we wanna take. Being that they are who they are, even if we flop a FD or a SD we're most likely not gonna see cheap or free cards, and if we flop top pair, are we gonna get caught calling him down if he has AK/QK or KJs? That's why I don't like being in these spots, but like I said that's just me.

It’s kinda funny to me that you put in 30bbs preflop from utg1 at an 8 handed table with KTs but I doubt I’m gonna convince you that’s not gonna make money so do you.

Don't think we have much fold equity if any against these guys so 4betting with a hand other than top 2-3% of range would be a punt imo.

Deep vs 2 whales is entirely different from standard situations.

Just because there are whales in the hand does not mean position is no longer relevant. There are still 6 players who can wake up with a better hand than yours and you’ll almost always be OOP going post.

The whales getting in the hand will incentivise the other players to enter the hand, often squeezing lighter and you end up calling a massive pf 3b with a holding that’s mostly dominated and be OOP against at least one player which limits your manoeuvrability and ability to value bet when ahead.

The risk/reward is just not there for opening 8bbs.

The chin makes some good points. When hero opens 8x, I would think that makes the other players' calling ranges stronger, such that perhaps we can't rule out V getting here with AK, KQ, and KJ.

If hero opened 3x-4x over the limp, V might have 3B AK, KQ, and KJs from LP, making his pre flop double-flatting range here somewhat capped and wide. This flop raise over SB's c-bet would be easier to figure out.

But it's not impossible V might double flat an 8x open with hands that beat KT.

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Definitely some good points about the preflop decisions, I will agree this hand is right on the edge of iso range vs limper utg1 v utg limp. K9s would be too weak and KJs definitely strong enough. Table dynamic very important when deciding how big to iso a limper. I go as big as I think I need to go to narrow the field. If I raise 4-5 even 6bb in this type of game I'm sure to go 6+ ways to the flop which is less than ideal. I don't mind getting 3bet by this player in particular especially for this size, if he went much bigger I would surely fold.

Yeah I do agree it would be nice to find a way to play the hand since it’s still KTs in a super splashy game.

The problem I have with 8x is that there is a 4% chance a player is dealt JJ or AQ+, so with six players behind and card removal that’s gonna be like 25-26%. Then add in that they could 3b a bunch of other suited broadways and aces especially if the whales enter the pot and youre gonna get 3bet 25-40% of the time here.

If we call the 3bet we are saying: the other callers are wide enough that we can call this weak a hand. But that somewhat contradicts our rationale for opening 8x: to narrow the field effectively.

So an 8x iso is becoming dangerous in terms of risk/reward.

A smaller iso might not have any FE on plates behind and simply lead to a bloated multi-way OOP pot.

Maybe we could overlimp the hand? That would allow us to play a more appropriate pot size for the hand, while still getting us in a postflop spot vs the whales.

I do sometimes limp in these situations, but that's just me. I don't think it's too fishy (when we have a multiway hand; off suite hands would def. be too fishy).

Yeah I have no problem with over limping some of the weaker suited Broadways, as well as small to mid PP, suited Ax, and other decent SC that have good playability multiway. Plus we can limp some of our top end hands in this dynamic and go for LRR, there are definitely games like these where guys were raising basically any 2 cards in the deck so the action is basically guaranteed to get reopened with tons of dead money. I don't care if my play looks fishy I just want to execute the most profitable strategy I can at any given time. I do all sorts of stuff that might look fishy but the irony is that I'm usually sitting in a game full of fish who don't bat an eye.

I'll go ahead and post result since I think we're at that point in the discussion. I decided to fold to the turn bet and wait for better spot against this guy. I folded and showed him the king and his jaw dropped. I never got to see what he had but I get the feeling it was not a good fold. If I could do it over I probably just rip it on the turn facing this bet and remove anymore decision making in the hand.

That’s a fold on the flop.

Then order a whiskey, and tip the waitress 4$ instead of 5$.

You are now 1$ richer, you saved 1$.

You should never fold big hands face up, the whales now know they can blow you off most all of your hands.