1/3: JJ in middle position + multi-way pot & connected board

I would bet 15 or 20 on the flop. Because your range is uncapped, following two checks, you can represent AA, KK, and Qx. If anyone calls, I would plan to check the turn…unless it’s a J. Turn is fine. I too would be confused by the river and might bet 100, even though it gets you pot committed. I’m curious what the others will say.

PRE - standard / fine.

FLOP - For God's sake, bet.

Checking flop as the PFR, rather than c-betting, is often fine, as V's might be planning to x/r, and we don't want to get blown off our equity. But here, I don't like the check.

You have a PP, and some backdoor draws, but your hand isn't likely to improve, and some of the ways it can improve can make your opponents a better hand. Like, another J completes some of V's straight draws. We don't really want to pick up a flush draw if it means there are 3 flush cards on board.

Your opponents are going to have more good draws than really strong hands that can check-raise on this flop, so we want to bet, to charge their draws, and deny equity from some hands that might catch up on turn.

Multi-way, on this wet and fairly connected board, I'd bet at least 2/3 - 3/4 pot, maybe more, like full pot, since both V's ranges are going to be pretty wide here.

TURN - after checking back on flop, this turn is not great for us. We can play it tricky and just call, since either V could now have a straight. Raising is also fine, but once BB calls, and then UTG calls, we're almost certainly beat.

With 3 of the J's accounted for, it's really unlikely either V has QJ, J9, or a worse set here. They're probably not calling with just 1P or a just a flush draw. There isn't much you can beat when BB check-calls a bet and a raise, and UTG bets, then over-calls.

RIVER - for God's sake, check back.

You're losing to KT and T8. Unless both V's are just absolutely terrible, they're not calling your turn raise, then check-calling the river, with hands you beat. Considering they both tank-called, it won't shock me at all if they both have T8, since KT is going to raise turn or river.

I limp in but that's my style. Our raise got things 3ways in position although with a somewhat awkward SPR of ~6 (not great, although manageable in position), so fairly decent result overall, imo.

I think I would more lean to a bet on the flop. On a drawy board we can get called by worse. We can likely safely fold to any raises versus these guys. Our hand is often best but is very vulnerable to some random A/K overcards. I'd probably go like $20 - $30 in this $45 pot and go from there.

With middle set and the flush draw not coming in I think I feel comfortably committed for stacks here at this depth. I typically like offering poor 2:1 odds for draws, which means a raise to $150. This would create a $345 pot with a very easy $135 to shove on the river. Our raise to $100 leaves a shove of $185 into $245 on the river (also quite reasonable), although I think it offers slightly too good of IO (especially since we probably won't be able to fold most rivers). So I'd probably go a bit bigger than we did.

Yeah, pretty weird coldcall by the BB on the turn. This doesn't look like any set because they would have led the turn once the flop checked thru. But I think even a straight would have also led. So my guess overall is this is some mega draw (like Txhh). Bottom line for me is that we have $185 left in a $345 pot and all the draws busted, so easy shove for value hoping to get called by UTG's worse hands. If BB somehow shows up with a super slowplayed straight on a drawy board, good for him I guess (but this typically ain't how straights are played in huge pots, ETA: with the sole exception being that he is super concerned about being behind KT with T8... but even T8 leads the turn a super high percentage of the time when the flop checks thru on a drawy board).

ETA: The difference in calling $100 versus $185 in this size pot is incredibly small. Really need to be going for that extra value, imo. ETA: And I really think there is value to be had here; UTG easily has worse sets / two pears that he ain't folding, so I don't think we should be checking back just cuz BB has a super slowplayed bottom straight some small percentage of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Appreciate the comments and feedback everyone. In retrospect I think betting flop is fine, but having the Jh made me feel like I could see an extra card in position and had blockers for TJ so didn't feel the need to overplay middle-pair on the flop. Not sure the thinking holds up to solver (I admit I don't use them really) but that was the thinking at the time.

Results below:

So...they're both terrible. Make a mental note of that for future hands against them.

If you c-bet flop for a larger size - 2/3 pot to full pot - both V's are going to be less likely to go for the x/r, either for value or as a bluff, allowing you to see the turn without having to make a tough decision on the flop.

I don't like checking flop, even with the Jh in our hand, because this flop is going to smash their ranges, such that they'll have some value that beats you, some value you beat, and a bunch of draws hoping to spike a J or heart on the turn, from which we can extract value.

It's that last part that is the salient issue. Spiking a J completes a lot of their inside straight draws that want the flop to check through. Catching a heart improves us to 1P + a flush draw, but a lot of their flush draws that check flop just got there.

Any card that adds a straight draw for us could make our opponents a bigger pair (KT on a K), 2P (T9 on a T), or a set (88 on an 8). Our hand isn't likely to improve on a later street, it can't ever improve to the nuts, and even if it does improve somewhat, it could be a cooler situation for us.

Even if we c-bet flop for a smaller size, we're going to get x/r'd a lot on a board like this, both for value and with some bluffs, and we'll have to call more, putting us into that same situation described above, yet with a more bloated pot and a lower SPR, forcing us to make some difficult decisions on turn and river.

When we bet this flop, even if we take a larger sizing, we'll still get x/r'd sometimes, albeit not nearly as often. When we get x/r'd, that's okay. It's very unlikely either V has QQ or 99 here. So their thick value is fairly limited to top 2 and bottom set. They won't be raising with as a semi-bluff with their draws very often.

We'll mostly be folding to an x/r over a big c-bet here, confident that we were beat. Very rarely, if we're deep enough that the SPR is very high, we can flick in the call, and hope the run-out will help us win the pot.

When their flop x/r makes their hand so face up, really narrowing it to top 2 or bottom set, we can rep a lot of flushes and straights on turn and river, hands they won't have when they x/r flop over a big c-bet. We can also cooler them if we spike a J, like we did here.

Here, as played, when you check flop, then raise turn, and they both call, it's hard to put them on top 2 or bottom set when the inside straight comes in. Because you raised pre and raised turn, it looks like you have an over-pair, but you could also have 2P, sets, and KT or T8 occasionally. Either could be planning to check-call or check-raise the river with T8, or check-fold some draw that missed.

Betting $100 into $345 is just odd. You really don't have very many, if any bluffs with that sizing. With only $185 remaining behind going to the river, I think the play is to just check-back, or jam. When they both call your turn raise, I'd be leaning towards checking back, not turning our set into a bluff, when we're not blocking any of their thick value.

cbet the flop (with position we can check back turns or rivers later) and jam the river as played (I'm not worried about KT, they woulda most likely raised the turn with a FD there) I'm tryna get value from QJ and AQ.

I think you can either bet or check the flop and overall your line seems fine.

Disagree with almost this entire post. I'm checking flop all day. We're IP MW with second pair on a drawy board where we block the main draw JT and have Jh. We're perfectly happy to see a safe turn peel and then play a two street game. Lol @ calling T8s and KT when the J comes in...pure MUBS. Like you said yourself, Vs ranges are soooo wide here. I'm going for value OTR too.

We block the main draw on the flop. We don't block the only draw on the flop. On this sort of flop, there are a lot of flush draws, some that are also inside straight draws, and a lot of 1P + a draw combos.

We have second pair, which is unlikely to improve, and there are a ton of cards that can come on the turn or river that we're not going to like. We should be betting flop, both for value and protection.

How wide are their ranges when BB checks turn, UTG bets 3/4 pot, hero raises 3x, and both BB and UTG call, on this super-connected board, at a loose-passive table? I'd think most opponents aren't calling with just 1P, but would be re-raising with 2P or a set.

Hero's raise on the turn is showing a lot of strength. Either V could be sand-bagging with an inside draw that got there on the turn, or they could have 1P + a draw or a flush draw that bricked and won't pay off a big river bet.

The way this was played, I'm never putting either V on a set, and probably not even 2P, when they just call hero's turn raise, so I wouldn't be trying to target those sorts of hands for value.

We're disagreeing a lot lately, and this is another instance.

While there are a small percentage of players that will either slowplay a straight on the turn or want to wait until a safe river to put more chips in, the vast majority of players will simply go with their hand ASAP, especially in a large pot, especially with a flush draw still out there. So just very unlikely (although admittedly not impossible) that either of these players have a straight.

Meanwhile, sets and two pairs (almost all of which we beat) make up a huge percentage of the hands that are continuing to our turn aggression, hands that feel they may or may not be best but also feel they can't fold yet as they can improve to boats.

For all the value you argue I'm missing out preflop with my passive / "unfundamental" / "terrible" play, you're missing far more value postflop by considering checking the river behind in this spot, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG