2/5 TPTK facing check raise vs aggressive villain

You should mostly check back all of your one pair hands on this board and bet overpairs+ and KQ for a large size.

As played I would just fold because you can't really continue on any turns and calling just to hope he slows down/gives up doesn't seem like a great plan.

Hmm, could you go into more detail? I think that sounds right against some villains, but against loose passive players I can def get value from worse jacks, worse pairs, and draws that will just check call flop then probably x fold turn

JT7 is a board where the preflop raiser doesn’t have a clear nut/range advantage. It is a texture we should be checking back frequently and we are going to need some stronger hands in our check back range.

Also, as spyu said, there isn’t a single turn card or runout (save for runner runner fullhouse) that will make our actual holding want to get stacks in for value.

Value betting flop isn’t terrible. The merit is indeed getting value from worse one pair hands before the board puts scare cards out. This needs to be weighed against the aforementioned downside. Always remember that NLHE is a 3 street game and if we build a pot on a wet board, it should be with hands that have some strong/nutty runout potential.

Action can change exploitatively against certain opponents. Against maniacs, this may be a good check and call down hand. Against fit or fold, a cbet may be better. Against this described villain, a c/r on this texture should not have come as a shock and now it’s a gross spot.

PRE - opening $15 from the BTN with AJo seems fine, unless the "standard" raise in the game has been larger, or if SB or BB are 3B / squeeze-happy. In that case, I'd go bigger.

FLOP - c-betting 2/3 pot with TPTK when heads-up and on this flop isn't terrible, but we could also check-back some. It somewhat depends on our reads on V, table dynamics, etc.

Generally, though, when we just have 1P on a board where V in the BB can have a number of stronger hands, and might x/r some high-equity draws, playing pot control by checking back is probably preferred.

As played, when we bet 2/3 pot, on this flop, and get x/r'd for 4.2x, with our stack depth, calling is pretty sketchy. I'd lean towards folding.

V could have a flopped straight, bottom set, sometimes middle or even top set, all the 2P combos, and a lot of straight draws. Even if we make trip J's or 2P on a later street, V could improve to a straight or a boat, or just still have our 2P beat with a set.

With no flush draw on board, V has fewer bluffs in his range. If he's any kind of player, he should realize we have all the sets, and possibly even all the flopped 2P in our range. Over a 2/3 pot bet, his x/r range should be very strong, unless he's just x/r'ing to get you to check-back turn, buying himself a cheap ticket to the river.

If we call, there aren't many, if any turn cards we can continue on, if he barrels big. I think we might want to see a board-pair, if only because it could improve our 2P and sets to a boat, slowing him down if he has a straight. Whatever the turn is, if he barrels big, I think we just have to fold.

If he checks a board-pair, or a brick, as much as I hate doing it, we probably just have to check back, and play some poker on the river.

a c/r from a RP is usually strength rather than draws/MSH's.

Rather than call and fold to further heavy action with a one pair hand, I would just fold now then btjm.

WHen dealing with these players, you really need to worry less about a specific hand and more about your overall strategy to beat them.

I'm going to keep pots small/large, out of position I'm going to x, in position I'm going to x, my plan to make money is x. I'm willing to handle x risk and spend x buy-ins playing this person. Unless you know the answers to these table change.

50/50 he's full of it here but your whole stack is going in either way. Are you ok with that? If you don't know what to do when he re-raises you then why raise the flop?

Yeah, this is a good hand to check back and potentially call 2 barrels, rather than put your stack at risk
And agree, against passive players it's fine to bet it esp since it is easier to fold to a x/r

Interesting dynamic. I think I'm checking everything on this board except maybe a straight or set -- I bet those vs. an aggressive V to start building a pot. After checking, I call a bet from V -- let him barrel away.

As played, I don't know if I want to give up just yet vs. an aggressive villain. I guess it depends on how aggressive and how skilled and how he normally plays against you. Do you normally fold to his aggression?

I mean..I'm never folding TPTK on a wet semi-dynamic board like this. Although 85 seems like a big raise, 1.5x potish.

edit: wow amazed people are talking about folding here. that's just way too weak imo without reads. its a single-raised-pot not a 3-bet pot. Both ranges are wide and BBs nut advantage is minimal, we have all the sets and even the 89s too (yea he has more 2pair). I can see checking back but there's no reason not to go for thick value here, maybe go even larger than 2/3rds like 25 or full pot. Lots of brick turns 2-6 and we can eval IP if he barrels.

Vs range is like [TT-77, 78s, 89s, T9s, J9s, J8s, JTs, KQo/s, KJo/s, K9s, K8s]. We're ahead of a lot here.

We are. Have fun on the turn.

If you're checking back TPTK here then you'd have to check back JJ and TT as well otherwise you're completely face up. Enjoy having no value range.

The 1st response itt was pretty good and mentioned QQ+, two pair, sets, straights, KQ as our value range. Maybe there are some bluffs and hopeless hands too, to make a polarized range.

Yeah I don’t get this. We can value bet or semibluff any holding that can happily continue to a c/r.

We don’t need sets in our check back range. We are not slowplaying and we are not necessarily checking to give up. We are pot-controlling and keeping villain’s range wide.

Blasting because we likely have the best hand on the flop is not the objective here. We need to take lines that allow us to realize our equity.

You're suffering from confirmation bias. You see H got x/r and now are focussed on that as positive evidence to justify not betting. TPTK HU is squarely in our value range here, maybe closer to the bottom but by no means a weak hand that cant stand up to a x/r. It also needs some protection and rarely improves further justifying a bet now/check back later approach.

With no flush draws on the flop, is V really x/r'ing >4x over a 2/3 pot bet with 78s, T9s, J9s, J8s, KJo/s, K9s, or K8s? Maybe 88/99, but few V's are going to find that bluff, and play it this way, when hero can have some strong hands that want to 3B, and V can just flat call.

That's really the issue - V could just flat call with all those hands you're putting into his range. Taking this >4x x/r size over a 2/3 pot bet by the PFR is a super-strong line.

If we call V's raise, he's likely to barrel huge on a lot of turns, and we'll have to fold almost 100% of the time. Instead, if we just check-back on flop, V could stab the turn with all those hands you're putting into his range, and then some. Then we could flat call, and see the river without bloating the pot.

TPTK doesn't need to bet 2/3 pot. We can bet 1/3 pot and accomplish the same goals. It certainly isn't a hand that wants to call a >4x x/r after betting 2/3 pot.

How much protection does it really need? A and J block a lot of the Kx and Qx combos V could have. It can actually improve more than a pocket pair. We have 3 A's, 2 J's, and backdoor straight possibilities. If the board runs out diamonds, we can rep the nut flush.

On the other hand, if V just completely missed, or has some weak PP, we're not really getting much value if we c-bet 2/3 pot and V folds.

I don’t think I am.

Against passive Vs, betting TPTK here is ok.

This V is described as a skilled aggressive player.

So if you are advocating b/c flop, what are you doing when he barrels a 7/9/T/Q/K/A/blank turn for large sizing?

You're both completely transfixed by this x/r and talking past the sale turn barrel fallacy. You have no evidence he's barreling brick turns and if he does, he's doing into a range containing sets and 2p. Once he does we can comfortably fold or at least eval his sizing but if you're convinced this guy is so audaciously x/raising flop then you should be cbetting flop polar. Your x backs would be hands like KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, AT, 99.. hands that cant stand a x/r and have more equity to realize in the form of straights. I agree AJo should be bet for smaller sizing perhaps but we're talking 10$ vs 20$ its not a massive difference in a single raised pot. Also stop obsessing over blockers..blockers are practically meaningless, even moreso with no flush, and in HE unlike PLO.

You think a guy described as "skilled aggressive player" has no J9s/J8s here? You're dreaming.

Skilled is the operative word there, not aggressive.

Aggro players could be raising with any pair and any draw here. Skilled players are going to be x/r'ing with a range that makes more sense, and in better spots than this one.

To your earlier point, hero can have A LOT of really strong hands here, including all the over-pairs, 2P, sets, and a straight. In this case, hero doesn't. TPTK is actually pretty far down in our range to c-bet or call here.

If V is skilled, he'd know our range has a lot of 2P, sets, and straights, as well as some TPTK and over-pairs we might over-play. What's he going to do if we 3B over his x/r here? Why would he want to x/r with J9/J8 here, when he can just call our flop bet, and see the turn without bloating the pot?

With two J's accounted for, V really can't have too many J9/J8 combos to start, much less to x/r.

Would he be x/ring for VALUE, or as a BLUFF? Would he even know? If he's raising for value, what hands do we have that can call, when he takes this size? If he's raising as a bluff, what better hands is he expecting to fold?

We wouldn't be c-bet / folding a straight, obviously. Probably not our sets, and maybe not even any of our 2P. We're only folding TPTK, and maybe sometimes our over-pairs, assuming we don't decide we're just going to go broke if V has us beat.

If hero bet 1/3 pot, and then V x/r'd 4x or less, sure, I could see him having a wider range. But not when hero bets 2/3 pot and V x/r's over 4x. Why would a SKILLED player want to turn top pair into a bluff here, against the PFR who c-bet 2/3 pot?

It's not JUST his x/r. It's his flat call pre from the BB, and his x/r size over hero's c-bet size, on this flop texture, given the card removal.

I have no evidence the sun will rise tomorrow. But it's happened every day before. Likewise, I have no evidence he'll barrel turn after we call his flop x/r, but that seems to be a pretty common scenario, in spots like this.

In my first reply in this thread, I said we COULD call, but I'd lean towards a fold.

You said in an earlier post that we should c-bet this flop with TPTK, in part because we weren't likely to improve. I said we could check this flop, because we actually can improve, against the range that V will check to us on flop, then stab on turn.

But when V x/r's flop, for >4x, over our 2/3 pot sized bet, his range is no longer the same. It's now MUCH stronger than it was when he checked to us. Now, against THAT range, we're NOT very likely to improve, because even the cards that could improve our hand actually strengthen V's range as well.

Yes, I would be c-betting this flop polar, with very strong hands (sets or better), or under-pairs to the board - hands that can continue to an x/r, or don't mind folding to an x/r. But I'd probably just be checking here a lot.

If you don't like to consider blockers, fine. How about just doing some basic hand-reading? V flat called from the BB. He probably doesn't have much KJs, or JJ/TT in his range, but could have a lot of JT, J7, T7, 77 and 98s.

That's over 40 combos he can have that are slam-dunk x/r's. He doesn't need to blast off with weaker TP hands or 2nd pair + a draw hands, or no pair hands.

This isn't true.

Let me ask you this: If we had opened JJ when folded to OTB and BB called and it went HU to a 30$ pot and the flop came 6-5-2r and he checks...are you checking back so as not to get x/raised? Yea I know its not exactly apples to apples comparison but he called out of the BB, his range is likely 50-60% of ATC.

I mean I don't hate a check back with AJo on a J-T-7 but you have to have a mixed strategy here between some check backs, some small sizing and some large sizing cbets. People aren't thinking 'OMG he just bet 2/3rds pot!!' when the pot is 30$, they're thinking in absolute terms that it's a 20$ bet. But yea, if you're going to fold TPTK to a x/r then I would definitely check this back. It just seems way too exploitable to me - but at my 2/5 game people are check/raising constantly (probably too much) because they think they're semi-pros so maybe that's biasing my answer. From a typical 1/3 LP its obviously much closer to a fold.