$2/3 flopped small flush with action

Villains should have all suited Aces and you should be 3betting at the very least AKs along with some A2s-A5s.

But let's say, that based on this call, we give Hero a range of AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, T8s, 98s, 97s, 87s, 86s, 76s, 75s, 65s, 64s, 54s.

V1 should have all of those suited hands, except for the suited gappers. He should also have K8s. And you should be 3betting a lot of the baby aces and a lot of the smaller suited connectors.

Since V2s is calling and seems tightish and he should be calling tighter against a raise, he should have a tighter range of suited hands, something like AJs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. Again, he should also be 3betting a ton baby Aces and SCs, but assuming he's passive, I just assumed he 3bets AKs and AQs.

I plugged these ranges on equilab and it's giving me 34% equity for the PFR, 33% for the LP caller and 32% for the BB.

Now, you could assume that we should be calling suited stuff like K8s-K2s, Q8s-Q2s, J8s, J7s, etc, but they are terrible calls vs such a large raise.

It's not a cooler. Hero flopped the 7th nuts.

I mean...7th. In a four-way pot.

V1 flopped the nuts with AKhh and checked it into three opponents, which is what he should do. Hero massively over-played his hand, jamming $500 into $135.

That bet sizing will always get called by better, and rarely by much worse. There are almost no worse flushes here, and no flopped straights. Unless someone is stacking off with a 7-high flush or worse, we're rarely going to be good when we jam and get called.

V2's over-call with a set is actually printing, getting 2.65 to 1. He's got 34.5% equity against flopped flushes, which is more than enough when hero jams and V1 calls, with two cards left to come.

Even if V1 folds, V2 is getting over 2:1 with just over 33% equity. He's getting the right odds to call.

If either opponent has a higher flush, we're drawing dead to one out, to make a straight flush. We're like 5% on the flop. We should just flat, see what V1 does, and go from there.

What are the odds someone flopped a better flush when we jam $500 into $135 over a $60 bet into $75 with 86hh on a board of Th9h5h - and get called?

Our line is insanely strong. We're check-raise-jamming almost 4x pot over an 80% pot flop bet by a field caller, who led out into three opponents, including the PFR, the BTN, and the BB.

Just to clarify - V2 led out into an uncapped PFR, and the two opponents with the widest pre-flop ranges. V2 is almost never bluffing. When we check-raise jam 4x pot, in this configuration, how can we ever be bluffing?

But we can never have the absolute nuts here, because no straight flush is possible. The best hand we could ever have here is QJhh, giving us the OESFD.

Seriously, what worse hands are we expecting to call? Are we just jamming because we're scared someone with an over-pair including a heart is going to suck out on us?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread.

Just play it like a bluff-catcher. Start with a check, and evaluate.

The PFR isn't going to be making big bluffs into three opponents on a monotone board. The other opponents aren't going to be making big bluffs into the PFR. No one is going to be dumping money into the pot on a monotone board without having some sort of hand. At a minimum, it'll be 2P or a set looking to improve to a boat.

I played a similar hand tonight - raised pre from UTG with 99, got 3 callers. Flopped middle set on K95ccc. Flop checked around. UTG1 turned a straight with QJ when the turn was an off suit T, and bet small when I checked again. The other two guys folded, and I called. River paired the K, giving me third boat.

I checked, hoping he'd bet, but he checked back. No real point in my betting if I'm likely to be losing to KT or TT if I get called. Better to check, and let him bet worse for value, or bluff with AcXo. Maybe it seems like I lost value, but he was never calling with a straight, and probably not a low flush. Check-calling allows him to bet with more hands I can beat.

2P, sets, straights and small-middling flushes are all just bluff-catchers on monotone flops. We can't go crazy with hands that are easily dominated in multi-way pots.

Where are you getting this? I'm 3B'ing a number of suited aces in the BB, given this action. I'm 3B'ing AKs, AQs, A5s and KQs from the BB here. The only combos I'm not 3B'ing here are AJs, KJs, QJs, and all the trashier suited combos that are too strong to fold but not strong enough to raise.

The other V's can have a ton of flushes, unless they're all 3B'ing every suited combo higher than T9hh (since they're on the board) - not just 3B'ing QJ+, but every high-low suited combo, like K2, K3, K4, etc, and all their middling suited aces (A6s-A9s).

Hero flopped the 5th nuts, but there are a lot more than 4 combos we're losing to here. There are 7 ace-high flushes, 6 king-high flushes, 5 queen-high, and 4 jack-high. That's 22 combos.

Even if we rule out the trashiest combos, like Q2 and J4, there are still plenty of better flushes our opponents can have, especially the PFR, and the guy who led out for 80% pot into three opponents. Even the BTN could show up here with J7hh or 97hh.

To be fair I both lost track of the pot size AND my stack size. I thought the shove was like 1.5x PSB.

I didn't say to jam all in, I suggested raise 3x to 180 and since we only have 165 bb's I'm not worried about having to fold to a raise like I would if I was a few hundred bb'd deep. That would suck (which is whey I would only flat suited ace hands or PP's there pre not 8 high).

I'm not raising because I'm "afraid to get sucked out on", I'm raising because he seems to be in love with his hand betting almost pot on a monotone 4 way flop. People do tend to play more straight up in these multiway situations on wet flops, so I'm raising expecting him to call or even jam I'm not doing it to fold him out in case he has the nut draw.

On the other hand, if this was a different situation (which would probably happen the majority of the time), I would flat hoping to get more in later. Even if I knew he had the ace I would want him to call, because for every x amount of money he bets I basically own about 80% of it so it's not that bad of an investment even though sometimes they do draw out but they did it while getting bad odds anyway (and fwiw he didn't donk out the pfr checked first to act and someone bet 60 into 75).

I also said raise to 200 not jam. I was saying that villains will stack off with worse hands than flushes. I dont advocate jam for 500 on flop, its too big obviously.

Whether we raise big or raise small, I think a raise is bad here, when we're multi-way, and the PFR checked from early position, as he'll do a lot, even with, if not especially with nutted hands. Our opponents could have all the best flushes here, V1 especially.

I think it's worse to raise with a shorter starting stack depth than it would be with a higher SPR. If we make it 180, V1 calls, and V2 calls, we'll only have about 0.5 SPR. If V1 calls and V2 jams, how can we fold, when we'll be getting around 3:1? If we raise, V1 jams, and V2 folds, what do we do then?

When we check-call V2's 80% pot bet, it already looks extremely strong after we flat called pre from the BB, having the widest possible range. If V1 comes over the top with a raise, it's an easy fold and we can get away from our hand with a minimal loss.

If we just call, and V1 folds, we can check-call turn. If the turn is an ace, we can lead turn sometimes. If turn checks through, we can lead out on a river brick.

It would be different if it checked to the BTN and he bet small, like less than 1/3 pot. The BTN has the next widest range here, and we would want to raise to protect our hand from being out-drawn. But this is V2 betting into three opponents, with the BTN still to act, and he's betting almost full pot.

There's just no reason to blast off on the flop when we're only starting the hand $500 deep, and calling V2's flop bet will look so strong. All we'd be doing is over-playing a hand that is behind most of our opponents' continue ranges, and folding out all the hands we crush.

We shouldn't be looking to bloat the pot OOP and multi-way on a monotone flop. We should see what V1 does first. If V1 folds, and V2 checks back turn, then we can polarize with a big bet on a river brick.

That's just how I see it. If you guys want to start piling the money in on the flop here, best of luck. Hope it works out for you.

I cant believe you guys are saying you would fold a flopped flush when the odds are so long that someone else has a higher flopped flush. Like check call and then fold? Come on. If we were 300bb deep sure. But you can see in this hand one of the villains was stacking off with a set. It happens all the time. I constantly see people stack off on monotone flops w the bare A, with top pair + heart, overpair with and without heart, sets, 2pair. All hands we beat. I see it all the time.

If you want to say dont play the hand, fold preflop, i have no argument there.

Difference of opinion is all.

Lets say hero had 87s or T9s and flopped the flush instead. Are we check folding because they just have to have a higher flush?

We need to fast play this hand bc there are action killing cards that can come off. We wont get paid if another heart comes, if board pairs we only get it in when we're beat, etc.

Im usually in agreement w most hands but not this one. But it was a definitely a good discussion and good points by all you guys even if i dont agree.

The way you determine if you GII is not by determining if you they ever have anything worse. Its a question of if your equity against their range is greater than the pot odds.

If they have a better flush, you are 0% to win. If they have a set, youre 60%, and if they have 2p youre 80%, so youd need there to be far more 2p/set combos than higher flush combos to GII.

This is so telling of why calling pf is so bad here, like lets say that youre right and GII is good (i dont agree), at very best flopping a flush, which is one of the best possible flops for this hand, is very slightly EV+

Youre calling it a difference of opinion, and it is, between the correct opinion and the incorrect opinion.

Those are vs randoms hands. This is what is called selection bias.

The odds are much much higher vs a near 7x open + you get action on monotone boards that are very underbluffed.

As for the hand itself, preflop is going to be losing. You need to be very careful with these low suited hands in MW pots since they have high reverse implied odds.

His big stab is very strong on this board texture so just call flop. The main problem with raising flop is that if you get called you are very likely behind. It's easy to figure this out but count all the combos of better flushes there are and then best case scenario if they call is they have a set and brick out.

Fast playing a low flush because another heart might kill your action is failing to realize what worse hands call you. It doesn't matter that you have a flush, if you jam flop you need him call almost 50% of the time with worse hands. That is never going to happen on this board texture, especially given preflop action.

Preflop is very very clearly a fold. You have to stop calling big raises in the BB with players in the middle "because you're closing the action". That's a plus point but about the only positive.

I prefer a flop raise. There are sets and two pair aplenty which can and will call; there's the nut flush draw which can and will call; you need to deny equity to all of those. It's a shame there aren't really any baby flushes to improve your outlook, but you do have a sliver of equity if outflushed (the straight flush redraw) which helps the equation very slightly. Yes the player in between is a concern but he has an unknown hand which could be anything and you have a flush. You might get a big pair with a flush draw to stick around. Just calling could lead you into a horrible minefield on the turn. Also it's not certain that anyone does jam behind

I agree his stab is very strong on this flop texture which is the reason I'm raising, he's not likely folding to a 3x raise. Players will still call if they have a FD or even two pairs (the average live player's biggest leaks is they call too much). These bets (in this exact situation) are hardly ever top or middle pair betting to see where they're at who would fold to a riase and if we do flat, why should we give the original raiser good odds to call with an ace or king? Another heart will kill any further action anyway, unless he has a bigger heart of course.

If we check-call, and V1 raises, yes, I could find a fold here, for the simple fact that V1 is just not going to be bluffing or betting a worse hand for value anywhere near enough.

You're focusing on V2 going broke with a set.

But, A) V2 didn't jam, he bet, then called off a jam and a call, getting over 3:1, B) calling off a jam with a set, with a 40% chance to improve to a boat, when he's getting better than 3:1 on a call isn't terrible, it's +EV, and C) you're overlooking the strength indicated if / when V1 raises over our hypothetical flat call, much less his call when we jam almost 4x pot over an 80% stab from a field caller.

Yeah, V2 didn't improve to a boat, so he lost. But we never had a shot, because V1 flopped the nut flush. Instead of focusing on V2's set, focus on V1's big ole flopped nuts. When V2 bets 80% pot and we call (or raise), our other opponents aren't calling (or re-raising) with worse hands, unless those hands have some equity to improve, or unless they're just complete idiots.

The way the hand plays out matters here, a lot. So do the cards on board and the cards in our hand. Facing V2's big stab, an 8-high flush on this board just isn't going to be best often enough to raise and hope to get called by worse.

heres a weird thought - its might be better to have 86o here than 86s due to RIO (obv wouldnt play either).

in 16 months of playing 1/3 about 2-3 times a month ~8 hrs/sesh ive never seen a big bet on a monotone board with less than a flush, unless its a situation where there is a shortstacked PFR who is jamming here with an overpair+FD.

i learned this lesson the hard way my first time playing 1/ 3 when i got stacked on my 3rd hand playing 98s.

Quick hand history:

I open 77 from MP. Aggro grinder to my left calls. Action folds back to a super-aggro friend in the BB, who 3B's. I know he can 3B light, especially when I open, so I call. Grinder calls. We're three to a bloated pot.

Flop comes out 7-high, monotone, all spades. I have top set. BB checks. I bet 2/3 pot. Grinder folds. BB jams for 1.5x pot. I snap call.

Three guesses what BB has. First two don't count.

(Hint, it was the nut flush, with AKss, and I didn't improve to a boat.)

I want to play in the games where guys are blasting off to the moon with 2P on monotone flops. The only hands I ever see continue are: 1) made flushes, 2) over-pairs with a draw to the flush, 3) sets that are hoping to boat up.

So after the original raiser checks the flop in a 4 way pot on a monotone board, sets and two pair hands are supposed to check and not bet hoping it goes check/check/check to the river then?

i meant on the flop. if the flop gets checked around the situation changes.

I understand what youre saying but that hand example isnt really the same. Its a 3bet pot and your villain couldve had an overpair with a spade just as easily as the nuts. I mean obviously folding w top set is not a consideration there.

I do play in games where i see people blast off w top 2 in these spots or top pair with a heart, etc. I recently won a big pot with a small flush against top two. I see people way over play stuff a lot. I have come around on this particular hand though and can see the wisdom in just calling. If we raise to 200 like i said, we cant ever fold anyway.

Yes I was talking about on the flop, a set or two pair isn't gonna check after the original raiser checks. They don't want people to draw out on them, but if their set/2 pair gets raised, they will also think we're possibly doing it with the NFD, not always a flush so they'll still call. Of course this a general comment and not based on any particular villains that we already know and have reads on.

Check back on flop, yes, because an OOP PFR is going to check the nuts here a lot, as will opponents in middle position in multi-way pots. Most won't tip the strength of their hand until the turn, if the flop checks through.

If we bet flop, most good flush draws aren't folding, so we're not denying much if any equity. We might get one street of value, but then what do we do on the turn? Check back because they called flop? Barrel despite the fact they called?

Just check flop. We can bet or call a bet on turn. This is true for weak flushes, straights, sets, and 2P.

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If the average rec player flopped a set he's not gonna be checking it because he's worried that the original raiser flopped a nut flush he's gonna be betting to narrow down the field to heads up or even take it down right there. Sets are mostly always betting there.

Maybe I'm confused about what you were asking. I took your question to be asking what sets and 2P are supposed to do when action checks to them on a monotone flop.

Sets and 2P should check back, and look to bet or call a bet on the turn, if the flop checks through.

If you're asking what we're supposed to do with a small flush, facing a bet from what might be 2P or a set making a mistake by betting, obviously we should call, not raise.

I would suggest you consider the logic you're imputing to the player with 2P or a set. You said in an earlier post, "they don't want people to draw out on them," and here, "he's betting to narrow down the field to heads up or even take it down right there."

If someone flops four to a flush with a big PP, they're probably not check-folding to a single bet on the flop. So there's no removing the possibility that the opponent will draw out. If the field gets narrowed and a bet wins on the flop, it's most likely that no one had anything, so they're folding hands we were beating.

Those worse hands that fold to a flop bet might bet a worse hand for value or try to bluff on the turn. By betting out on a monotone flop with 2P or a set, all we're doing is building a pot while strengthening our opponents' continue range.

The same is true for flopped straights, and small flushes, especially when it's extremely unlikely our opponents have a worse flush. All of these hands are basically just bluff-catchers on a monotone flop.