Have I had this wrong for years?

A 7-high FD most definitely does not have 36% equity

Fold or raise pre, limping sucks, especially with suited connectors have terrible RIO in MW pots. Turbo mega fold to the raise pre. Also lol why are you hiding the stakes, is it $0.01/$0.02 or something? I smell shenanigans.

Fold. You need at least 2-1 to call

Raise pre, as played fold pre.

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Raise, limp, or fold initially are OK IMO, but fold to the preflop raise as played.

You don't have the odds and it isn't close, because making a pair is probably not good, and you are really crushed if he has a higher flush draw.

This illustrates why calling the 8xBB preflop with this hand was bad.

You have indeed been getting this wrong for years. Don't mock villains; keep it to yourself.

It's not as simple as a yes/no question. There are situations where the implied odds are good enough or when your draw is so strong that it's fine to call or reraise. Usually folding is the correct play.

Preflop depending on the button folding might be better. If his range for raising with the short stack is very tight then you can't win often enough. Still, last to act it's ok as long as the other limpers are reasonably deep.

As played it's marginal but call. Villain has to be pretty tight before a fold is better. It's marginal because the 76 is so low and you can easily make a pair and still lose. You should expect to win less then half the time but more then the 36% you need to break even. Rarely he will have a better flush draw and your in bad shape but as long as he has some bluffs you should be hovering around 40%.

I mock them inside my mind. When they suck out on me I pretend to be impressed, "Oh wow, you got me! Nice hand sir!".

I do make mistakes at the table, but failing to make the game as much fun as possible for the villains is not one of them.

I was trying to post a hypothetical hand. In a real game (at a $1/$3NL table) I was the shortstacker and a villain called my overbet with a flushdraw.

The actual hand went something like this:
4 limps, I have about 50bb, I'm in the SB with TT and I raise to 10bb. 2 callers.
Flop is J♠5♠4♦, 3 players, about 30bb.
I have about 40bb behind and I shove. One caller. Turn and river are blanks. Villlain shows Q♠7♠ and mucks.

He actually had a flush draw and an OVERCARD so he probably had a LOT of equity.

Obviously his preflop call of my raise was atrocious, but his FLOP call seemed like it was far from a mistake. Am I missing anything?

2024 and we are learning about pot odds and EV.

Yes, an over card helps a lot, not to mention running into less FD

You should really get a poker equity calculator and play around with it.

This is confusing with a real hand and a hypothetical hand. You are complaining someone called you and drew out. Low stakes players do not like to fold to a shove with a draw. They think about hitting there draw, not about pot odds. Similarly, you see them calling a 50xBB preflop shove with a suited gapper or whatever.

Yes youre missing something. This was basically a reverse HH which is against the rules. (Also a “hypothetical” hand is just a waste of everyones time in a different way). I called it, this was a shenanigans post. Ship it my way.

Let me see if I can save this thread by asking a more focused, specific question.

Relative stacks are about 100b. We're UTG with K♠K♣. We raise to 4bb UTG. Two loose passives and a loose passive big blind call.

4 players, flop Q♦9♦3♣, pot about 16bb. BB checks.

What are our thoughts on bet sizing here? When putting the villains on pot odds, are we only thinking about overcharging them to see the turn vs. the turn and river since stacks are deep enough we're going to have to play all 3 streets? Do we "pessimistically" assume we need to size our bet large enough to charge 9-out draws even though there isn't anywhere near a 100% chance that someone has a flush draw or OESD?

The other "factor" is that we can really only "control" the pot odds for the first villain - if the first villain calls, all of a sudden the next villain has even BETTER odds, and if they BOTH call, the LAST villain isn't really making much of a mistake by calling with ANYTHING. Do we account for that when sizing our flop bet?

Hope that made more sense.

You're better off viewing 9-out draws as a very strong range of hands that are largely going to continue, at least on the flop, and getting them to fold or call for an incorrect price is a fool's errand. In order to price them out you need to bet so large that you're creating problems for your value betting range to where even a lot of top pair hands aren't getting value, which forces you to play very passively.

A bet here largely denies equity to random overs like ATo, 4-out draws like T8ss, etc, and of course sets up multiple streets of value for our nutted hands (including black kings on a blank runout).

We're not usually going to bet a huge amount on such a dynamic board OOP where we're not really any likely to have a nutted hand by the river than others (we have more top set but less bottom set and top two, and we're less concentrated on the straights and flushes that are likely to make it there by the river).

That said, if you're range splitting or betting different sizes for exploitative reasons, KK is a good candidate to bet larger (though you'd prefer to have the Kd in bigger pots).

Hope that helps.

I'm cool with the initial overlimp (so long as Button isn't very raisey).

And I fold to the preflop raise. In multiway small SPR pots (where our postflop play will be handcuffed) we really need nuttish draws, imo (as we won't have the time / streets to figure out when our "good" made hand is dominated).

On the flop, it's rare that someone will overshove just A high (the only hand we're easily getting the odds to continue against) into 3 opponents. So we're only in the ~breakenish ballpark against big pairs with no spade. Against a big pair with a spade we're coming up a bit short. And we're massive dogs against JJ and bigger flush draws. So pretty trivial fold overall.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yes, his preflop call is atrocious and we're printing money.

His call is probably better than a call in the OP, although still very dicey. 3ways we're probably shoving A high a higher percentage of the time than we are 4ways (although probably not much more). His Q adds equity if it is an overcard to our pair (although it is debatable how often it will be). He does have some small extras backdoor straight equity. As it turns out his flop call was fine against the exact hand we had, but pretty dicey against our overall range.

GcluelessNLnoobG

For me, this comes back to a HOC concept, which in a nutshell is with big stacks behind (i.e. not committed, which we clearly aren't here in a multiway pot where we offered everyone awesun IO of 25++:1, albeit to an extremely awkward SPR of 6 OOP) don't worry nearly as much about the draws (which they need to have and hit in order to hurt us) and worry much more about building far too big a pot for the strength of our hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If V turns over his cards and shows flush draw, you should bet at least more than what is EV neutral to see the turn card, and as much as he is willing to call.

If V turns over his cards and shows worse hand, you should bet at least more than what is EV neutral to see the turn card, and as much as he is willing to call.

If V turns over his cards and shows nothing, you should bet as much as he is willing to call.

Figure out the likely breakdown that he can have any of those 3 groups and choose your sizing to reflect that.

This is pretty close to poker 101, and it appears that you didn’t have it wrong for years, you never seem to have it to start.

The problem with most players is that they’re playing not to lose. This is a very standard spot. Your issue isn’t so much about sizing against draws, because there will almost always be some sort of draws, but rather your inability to know what to do if draws come in.

Because you don’t know what to do in those situations on turn and river, you think a better approach is to eliminate those branches.

The challenge I find is convincing your opponent to show you their cards.

Something ive learned from gto is that protecting against flop draws basically doesnt exist. Thats why GTO prefers to bet 33% OTF really often and then 130% on brick turns.

In your KK example lets put it in $1/3 terms, $300 deep.

Flop ($48) Qd9d3c, id bet about $15, to get called by all sorts of jubk like gutshots, bottom pair, etc, and then if 1 person call

Turn ( $78) 2s, V checks, id go like $95 here. It forces all his tandom pair/gutshot hands to fold and puts top pair and oesd and fd in a terrible spot. And i do this wirh a hand like KT as well. Of course this is very V dependent. A sticky V will see this bet with QJ OTT and a jam OTR, a fit or fold player im doing it with the gutshots more.

Reverse HHs can be very enlightening. If they are against the rules, then the rules are stupid.

And hypothetical hands are just as good as real ones - why wouldn't they be?

Its good practice to read rules of forums before posting in the forum, certainly good practice to read them before shooting off your half cocked opinion about the rules. You will find that the exact reason for the rule is spelled out right there in the rules.

Ive got a hypothetical hand for you. Standard action, stacks and villians, are you willing to get it in 3 or 4 ways with a set? (This was an actual hypothetical question recently posted. DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?)

Hypotheticals and edge cases are extremely useful for building understanding of complex systems.