TPTK vs unk LP + sanity check during 4-5 BI downswing

Honestly just fold pre

I am not folding pre. Calling flop.

I prefer raising to 200 and calling off if V shoves. I don’t think this hand wants to see a Turn multi-way.

With this SPR it’s perfectly fine to stack off with TPTK.

Multiway I would rather just call here and hope to be against something like AK, AJ, KJ.

It looks like there may well be more hands that beat us when we get called than we beat. But there can be bluffs that we just scare off when we raise.

What are we really hoping for preflop? There is a 3 bet and a cold call. We surely did not call for top pair?

FWIW, I probably call preflop (only given the reads) and ofc I am calling flop, but I think we really got a pretty good flop for our hand, and given that a guy described as passive is leading, I'll need to see a pretty good turn card to continue. Hope we didn't use all our luck up getting this flop, lol.

Cold caller is likely just a fish and can be pretty wide with things like pairs we have 2 overs to and even hands we dominate like KQs, AJs, etc. AQs is a really good hand. If it hits top pair often it is good and you can always make better. A suited ace is strong multiway. Occasionally you are dominated and in really bad shape, but AQs is generally just going to be above the threshold needed to continue facing a 3bet as the initial raiser. Cold caller makes it closer, but I still would get in there.

This, plus the read of passive in both Vs is why I 100% call preflop. With passive Vs, I think we realize our equity almost always.

I find the opposite. When fish 3b pre they usually cbet near or over pot whether they hit or not.

That said I can’t find a fold pre.

The 3bettor is going to have us dominated an extremely high percentage of the time.

Am I the only one that wants to 4B pre?

Ok, I get it, it's AQ, the "parking lot hand". But do we really want to go three ways to the flop OOP?

I see the stack depths are awkward. But we could 4B to $140 or $145 and still fold to a 5B jam. If we get called, we'll have the betting lead and an uncapped range going to the flop.

As played, I think I might just check-jam this flop. We've got TPTK wirh backdoor straight and flush draws. We block AA and QQ. A check-jam for $405 should have max fold equity, and even if we're called, we can't be too big a dog.

I would rather 4bet preflop than call for sure. But folding is probably best. This is a loose-passive; having AQ here with a loose-passive driving the action is not what we want.

A decent amount of your HHs have you OOP (and also sometimes in 3bet pots); not hatin', just sayin'.

I just limp in.

I guess the other dead money in there helps a bit, but here we are again in a 3bet pot OOP; are we really making money in these spots? When passive players 3bet we should really be folding almost everything, no?

I guess I call the small flop bet and see what 3bettor does on the turn. The pot is protected with the shortstack so he can't be bluffing if he bets large and we can probably make a nitty fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Perfectly fine at SPR 4 if we were the ones doing the raising in a HU pot to get in the huge percentages of stacks preflop. Not nearly as much versus a passive preflop 3bettor who is continuing multiway, imo.

GcluelessSPRnoobG

Yea so I goofed and actually x/raised and he called, IP guy folded, turn was a brick ♥ and I bombed it and he called with AA, river bricked.

Im def overplaying hands MW but on the upside Im getting max value when Im ahead

What was it you were saying about SPR commitment with TPTK HU? 4 is borderline? I forgot and should remember this. Also obviously AK on a K72 is different than AK on a KQ9. Not sure which is easier to commit to - the former because our hand is so strong relative to Vs range V would only stack off with better hands ie. sets? 77 22? or the latter because we're ahead of less of Vs range even though he has several more hands that we can get value from ex. JJ.

What I've found when searching for articles about SPR based decisions is that the stack off threshold varies somewhat from article to article. Some will say we can stack off with top pair under 3 SPR, some will say it's 2 SPR, etc.

I think the SPR theory is just about the odds we'll have the best hand when all the money goes in, based on how much was left behind going to the flop. I think the theory is indifferent to board texture when we have TP and the SPR is very low. I may be wrong, but I think we're supposed to stack off with TP and 1 SPR, even if the board is super-wet, like monotone or three to a straight.

Here, I just don't want to go multi-way and OOP with AQs against an MP 3B and a LP cold call. I'd rather 4B-fold pre than try to navigate from OOP post-flop, knowing that it will never be easy unless we just absolutely smash the board, and in that scenario it'll be hard to get max value.

So, hypothetically, if we 4B pre, with the cold caller still left to act, there's a decent chance V 5B jams and we can fold. If he just calls, the LP player probably folds, and at least we'll be heads up, with a lower SPR, and an uncapped range vs a fairly capped range.

As played, I think we have enough going for us on the flop to check-raise, even knowing that we're still behind a good chunk of V's 3B'ing range. We're dominated by AA, but I don't think we're doing too badly against KK, we block QQ, we beat JJ, etc.

When we're only starting $440 effective in a loose splashy game, the SPR is going to drop off fast, especially when there's a 3B, which is part of why I asked about your $10 open. If you were thinking that opening that size allows someone to 3B small, and leaves you enough to 4B fold, then I like the sizing and the thinking. It's better than opening to $15 and not liking any of our options when we get 3B to >$50.

ETA - my bad, I asked about the $10 open in your other thread, but the question / opinion remains valid here.

My point with my response to Dave-O is that not all 4 SPR situations are the same.

If we have a $180 stack, raise to $20, get it HU with a loose player and flop TPTK with SPR 4, ~most of the time we're pretty happy working towards getting it in. This is because we typically offered our loose opponent fairly poor IO of ~10:1 plus they have a crapload of worse hands they can continue with (every weaker TP, every second pair, every third pair, every underpair, every draw, etc.).

But things change drastically in multiway pots and 3bet pots.

If we raise to $10 off a $400 effective stack and all 9 opponents call, that also creates a SPR of 4. But I certainly hope we're not gleefully attempting to work towards getting stacks in with just TPTK having given everyone awesum IO of ~50:1 / the chances of someone in this sea of players outflopping one pair being very high / the chances of anyone bluffing/overvalueing postflop being far lessened (due to the multiwayness keeping everyone honest).

And when a passive player 3bets preflop to setup an SPR of 4, we shouldn't be so happy to work towards getting stacks in due to their range being so condensed to a lot of hands that beat our TPTK. And even less so if we go multiway as their range is condensed even more if they continue with a cbet.

So in this case here, a passive player just 3bet an EP open (with no other dead money in the pot to squeeze plus already having position to boot). What's their range? Honestly, it might even be too generous to give this player TT+/AK (which is why preflop is probably just a fold) but lets do that. So on this flop we're behind AA/KK/QQ/TT (11 combos) and ahead of AK/JJ (14 combos). But the more multiway we go, the less he cbets. Does a passive guy even cbet whiffed AK 3ways? With 2 overs and a gutshot here, maybe. What about JJ? Second pair, ok, maybe. So even if we half the behind combos to not betting, we're still probably forced to call this flop bet sizing and evaluate what happens.

But I think we really went of the rails with shoving. All told, we're pretty much WA/WB here and our passive opponent will probably let us know which it is by the turn. Shoving doesn't really accomplish much except fold out hands that were drawing ~almost dead (I mean, unless we think AK/JJ are calling a shove?). So having an SPR of 4 here isn't much reason to just blindly commit with TPTK (which we could more happily do in single raised HU cases).

GimoG

I don’t get why anyone wants to pile money in on any street given that the 3 bettor’s range is probably AK, JJ+ or tighter

yes yes I goofed, I didnt know V that well. As for the 10$ opens doc I find 15$ gets some folds from trash I like to keep in and it bloats things too much for my liking. 11-14$ is too much of a pain to do math and so on so I cold open 10, then 15 if even 1 limp, 20 on 3 limps etc.

So...if you're opening to $10 with some hands, and opening to $15 with some better hands, that's inherently unbalanced, but a lot of bad low-stakes players won't notice.

Bart Hanson has talked about open sizes in spots where we have big pocket pairs, and most players hate going multi-way. Bart's view is to raise as large as seems reasonable, without worrying if it goes multi-way, which he doesn't mind, because the equities don't drop off all that fast.

I don't know if this is right, but I'd think that we'd rather open to $15 with a good starting hand, even if it means we're folding out some trash. Like, we'd rather be heads up with $30 in the pot than three-ways with $30 in the pot. But we'd rather have $45 in there if we're going three-ways.

If we open to $15 and get multiple callers, all that means is we can probably open even larger. I think we'd rather open to $20 and get heads up in a $40 pot than open to $15 and be three-ways in a $45 pot. If it's going to be three ways, let's see $60 in the pot, etc.

All that said - if we're not that deep, I don't mind lowering the open size, so long as we're capable of also making the correct follow-on decisions about when to fold to a 3B, when to 4B, what to do post-flop at lower SPR's, etc.

I suppose my expectation would be that opening to $10 is just going to force us to play more multi-way pots, often OOP, simply because most low-stakes players aren't capable of making on-the-fly adjustments to their 3B'ing ranges based on opponents opening for a smaller size. Like, if a guy is only 3B'ing AA/KK if you open for $15, he's probably not 3B'ing TT+ when you open to $10.

If that's what happens, I'd rather just use a tighter range and open fewer hands for $15.