QQ on a scary board. 876 8 T

QQ on a scary board. 876 8 T

5/5

~$500 effective

BU is a passive, fishy player.

Hero(UTG) Q Q opens to $20, BU calls

Flop($50) 8 7 6

Hero bets $20, BU calls

Turn($90) 8

Hero bets $50, BU calls

River($190) T

Hero - ?

Going for thin value here?
What should I do with my missed draws here, like QJs, etc.? And hands like ATs, JTs.

06 October 2024 at 03:00 PM
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9 Replies



On this very wet flop, bet more, closer to 2/3. How did you get to 50 on the flop? Is there a rake? Raised to 20 preflop in a raked pot (blinds folded?), I'd bet 25 into 40 is ok.

River: x/c or x/f, wholly read-dependent. More info on V would help. Have you ever seen him make a river bluff? A big bluff on the turn? T is a terrible card. I see no reason to bet.


I would size up the flop/turn on a texture like this. I might lean towards x/f if he's a passive player.


by adonson k

On the flop: On this very wet flop, bet more, closer to 2/3. How did you get to 50 on the flop? Is there a rake? In a raked pot, I think 20 is ok.

I don't think betting more than 1/3 psb is ever going to be correct, since there aren't many hands you want to fold that will fold for less than an overbet, and I doubt you want to overbet here.

Edit: Solver thinks Hero should be checking 100% of his range on the flop.


Button has a range advantage on this board so my gut feeling is to range check flop and call if he bets then range check turn again.

Also a passive fish generally won't bet his flush draws but will bet his nutted 2 pair+ hands so you gain a ton of information with the flop check.


by Always Fondling k

I don't think betting more than 1/3 psb is ever going to be correct, since there aren't many hands you want to fold that will fold for less than an overbet, and I doubt you want to overbet here.

Edit: Solver thinks Hero should be checking 100% of his range on the flop.

Thanks for that. Makes sense.

X-call or X-raise? Or even X-fold? How many of the sets do we have here UTG at 100bb effective? Though I guess JT is a possibility.


And I meant T9 vs JT obv. Derp.

Though even T9s is getting thin as a UTG open, no?

To actually answer the OP, now bet something passive V will still call. Pot's 190, V has 410 back, b/f 100 seems fine.

Lots of potential 2P we beat that can call. Straights may just call too, given the paired board.


Think I check flop from OOP. Let V stab at it with his bluffs. He's going to have all the 2P+ combos for value here. Flop and turn bets seem too big to me. Not sure why we'd want to play a big pot here.

Think we can check evaluate the river, and mostly fold if he bets. Maybe we can block-bet-fold if we think we can get called by 7x or some draw that ran into top pair with Tx, but we'd be targeting a very narrow range.

Probably playing all our Tx as a check-evaluate, mostly check-fold. Not going to barrel with our missed draws.

If we think V is going to bluff with all his missed flush draws, maybe we can check to induce. But with four to a straight on a paired board, I don't think very many loose passive V's are going to attempt a bluff here, and mostly just check back Tx and 7x. If he does bet, I'd expect him to telegraph his hand strength with his sizing, betting around half pot with his bluffs and Tx, and going big with his straights and boats.


Yeah, I already did the calculations and realized that checking the flop is better. It’s a simpler way to cap our opponent’s range.
After we check, many weaker opponents will bet pot with a strong hand and make a small bet with everything else. So, against an OMC, I can even check-fold to a big bet with QQ. Also, if the opponent checks behind, their range becomes capped, making it easier for me to bet the turn and river on these runouts, whether I have QQ or KT/ATs.

Nevertheless, AP, solver still recommends making a small bet OTR to extract value from hands like Tx or something like A7. And Tx just check-fold.


by Bellezza k

Yeah, I already did the calculations and realized that checking the flop is better. It’s a simpler way to cap our opponent’s range.
After we check, many weaker opponents will bet pot with a strong hand and make a small bet with everything else. So, against an OMC, I can even check-fold to a big bet with QQ. Also, if the opponent checks behind, their range becomes capped, making it easier for me to bet the turn and river on these runouts, whether I have QQ or KT/ATs.

Nevertheless, AP, solver still

Generally I just think it's simpler to check range from OOP when HU as the PFR. Otherwise, we're trying to figure out which hands are bets on which boards, which are checks, etc. Let opponents stab at it, which they'll do a lot (especially on dynamic boards like this), and telegraph their hand strength with their bet size.

The board texture and our actual hand doesn't usually matter enough to make me deviate from checking range. But on this board, I think it's fine to take a defensive line, when we're unlikely to fold out our opponent's draws with a c-bet, our opponent is likely to bet big with their strong value hands, and we can't feel great over-betting a brick turn when there's already a three-card straight on the flop.

I don't think I'd check-fold flop, even against an OMC who puts in a big bet. I'm gonna call and see at least one more card.

I wouldn't necessarily assume a check back caps V's range. Some V's will sand-bag big hands on the flop, and wait for the turn to pounce. Others might start a bluff with their draws.

As for the solver's river reco - I agree we can bet small to target Tx and maybe A7. We're just targeting a very narrow range to call, though. Doubtful 7x calls very often.

It's kind of a weird spot on the river. Doubtful V has JJ. We lose to 66-TT and 8x. Hard to think he'll call even a small bet with 55. Can't really expect a loose-passive fish to know what hands make good bluffs here. I don't think he's sandbagging anything that was 2P or a set on the flop or turned trips, but if he has 9x or TT, we're just torching money by betting.

A bet seems like it would mostly be targeting Tx, but most of V's Tx combos are likely to be Tx of clubs, which block our busted flush draws. Maybe he's not thinking on that level, and gets here with more Tx, and will still call down with all his Tx of clubs, blockers be damned.

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