Top Pair w/ K high flush draw on 3 bet pot vs Aggro Villain

KTo is not a mid strength hand. It is what Doyle called a trouble hand and you did get into trouble with it. I don't think you should be playing that may against a reg.

Not only is KTo a dogshit hand, but it's especially getting smoked by a typical raise-call range.

In this situation, the BTN can reraise all suited Bdwys, all pairs down to 66 or so, and suited connectors down to 54s. You don't need to scrape the barrel to find 3! hands, especially against loose raisers.

Preflop whatever, not great but whatever, seems like hes raising too wide, so i get the plan, even if i dont agree with the specific hand. Pretty easy call on flop imo.

It's a top 1/6th hand, per Pokerstove. If that's not a "mid-strength" hand, on the Button, what is?

Pre is fine. H light 3b a presumably light open and this LAGgy reg called closing the action. OK. Let's not get nuts on the flop.

H flops the 2nd nut draw (ignoring SFs) and top pair. Does H think this V would overcall all Axdd pf? Or 4b them? Aren't they folding a lot of them to a BUT 3!?

Does piling over H's 1/3pot cbet on a monitone board make sense with Axdd, from this V? Who presumably is not as petrified of getting boated on as the usual LLSNL pool? H probably has 0 55/33 in their BUT 3! Vs MP Open range. So why bomb this much as V, if V has the nuts? If V calls flop, V has 860 back on a 305 pot. So, I'm not seeing the need to blast H out of the pot with a 4.5X raise, were I V with Axdd. Even if I suspect H will x-back turn.

If V doesn't have Axdd, and we block TT, what are we so worried they have, on T53? V overcalling for 60 more 55/33, OOP, with 1020 back (leaving aside the decision to open those from MP anyway), this comment pool would mostly fall all over themselves to say how dumb that was. Despite H's "nitty image" and new enough that maybe V would get paid off if they spike it. Vs 4! against H and hoping a nitty H will fold their QQ/AKo portion of their range at 110 bigs.

What is in this V's open/call, vs open/4! range, in everyone's opinion?

Finally, since I don't want to fold if H, is it better to call or jam now? Jam, and we offer 740 to call to get a pot of 2205. 33.5%

Call, and pot's 725 with 650 back. I want to call, and I'm wondering if that's a mistake.

Ask Pokerstove how KTo fairs against the typical range from an MP who openraises and calls a 3! OOP.

Also, why are we 3! an MP open-raiser with the top 15% of our range? That seems way too aggressive, even against a LAG.

My guess is that H is viewed as a nit, maybe a little card-dead and maybe annoyed at this V previously opening light on H's button. Since it's not suited, we're OK with turning it into a bluff a little by 3!'ing with it. Are you suggesting H should fold his button to V's open?

Also, there aren't any notes about how squeeze-happy (or not) these blinds have been. If they are active, I'd much rather 3! with H's image than overcall.

What do you believe a Laggy 5T reg's MP open range is? I'm not expecting a top 8-10% range from this V. Maybe that's an error?

To paraphrase Colonel Jessup, "I'm an educated man, but I'm ignorant as to the betting and raising habits of 5/T players." I mean, if it's loosey-goosey like Hustler Casino Live, maybe 3! with KTo is fine, although the solver is holding its nose and dropping KTo like a bowl of leftover tuna that's dried out in the fridge.

Since I'm not raising here, I'm folding, since I'm never calling anywhere for any amount with KTo--at least in a normal, full-ring game.

Preflop seems fine to me if we have a good image but I get that some people don't like this play. GTO certainly has its place but 1/2 players are nowhere near GTO and if you try to apply its principles, you're going to own yourself. At the very least your win rate (if you even have one) isn't going to be nearly as good if you don't learn how to simply exploit low stakes players.

It doesn't matter how well K-T does against AQ+,AJs+ when the flop is nine-high or seven-high, which it will be most of the time. All that matters is position, especially 3 ways.

In this spot I like shoving all-in on the flop. I don't think we can be in terrible shape all that often. We are really only smoked be exactly AdAx which V would have to decide to slow play out of position to a 3-bettor with which we have a special dynamic and AA/KK and even QQ seem pretty unlikely. We should have outs no matter what he has and we can leverage a lot of fold equity in this spot. Villain should fold everything but sets and the unlikely-for-the-reasons-mentioned overpair.

Tell us you don't understand GTO without telling us you don't understand GTO.

PokerStove may overrate KTo based on how it play allin preflop against a random hand or something like that. I would rather 3! 65s or 97s or something like that. With KTo, you can lose a lot with top pair against better top pair, etc.

You guys a right, it is a trouble hand and ended up being real trouble to play. Not sure if im ahead against his check raise range after a 3bet call OOP.

only thing i have to add that i dont think ive ever seen someone make a move on a monotone board in like 500 hours of play at 1/3. obv thats not 5/10 but w/e.

Pre was as standard as standard gets. We block kings and ace king, and he should have a wide range. It's a perfect opportunity for us to 3bet imo, but that's just me (I'm never flatting pre).

I don't like calling the flop (or jamming) because we could be drawing dead as well as being behind even w/o the flush coming.

Interesting. Do you think it might be a good exploit to check raise bluff on medium monotone boards? Now that I think about it I haven't seen many bluffs either with this line so it was really stupid from me to push. But that means if im in players shoes, I can check raise big with a high percentage and expect a lot of folds from medium strength hands?

it depends who you're playing and how often they are cbetting.

exactly this

You are loving life with an A87r board with 87
you are not loving life with an AKTr board with KT as there's so many ways you're beaten even by hands which are just floating that flop

i mean pre seems bad having seen the q6 hand as both an overall game plan and choosing someone who plays way too loose and fights for pots. granted it's pre so idk exactly how bad it can be ev wise. he is also pretty clearly fish given results of this / prior hand so i think approaching him as a reg is a large error. is obvious regardless u want to be 3betting linearly vs this guy and i think kto is just not strong enough to make it into the range (i think kjo is probably good enough at least at some frequency)

post is an error. solver basically has no 3b range otf facing xr here and you have a hand that makes very little sense to 3b all in with even if you wanted one (some sdv, okish draw, can handle runouts, close to dead vs call off range), call is decently +ev blah blah. jamming looks like a ~4bb error in comparable spot (j53ddd with KdJx so is blunder). xr is extremely easy for ip to play against (call with pairs, single diamond hands, gutters; fold the rest) so i dont think you're really exploiting by xr atc

If someone is opening Q7s from mp, he will get into trouble on his own. There is no point competing with him playing loose ranges. Playing solid ranges should give you an edge. Fine to through in some 3!s with scs, Axs, etc.

Flat calling with KTo is obviously terrible. In general, I wouldn't play unsuited high card hands like that except to open raise on the button or something like that. They are much stronger in limit holdem than no limit holdem.

I would fold to the flop raise if I got there.

This kind of play might be good in some tournament situation, where there is 2.5xBB blinds and antes and most hands don't go to the flop. Then he folds a lot to the 3!, you fold to a 4!, and if he calls you see a flop with position and initiative.

In cash games, much more goes in on later streets, so you don't want to be playing junk.

Villain should of course fold Q7s to the 3!. Q7s is probably a worse hand than KTo. It seems like he is never folding to a 3!, which seems fishy.

KJo and AJo are already 0 EV in theory, low frequency 3bets and mainly folds. KTo pure fold and -EV in theory. Maybe you pure 3b KJo and AJo if you have a postflop edge, but do you really want to be 3betting KTo when he probably calls with KQo, KJo, ATo, etc? I would 3bet linearly and KTo would not make the cut.

Flop I prefer call but jam is probably not too bad.

yeah if you wanna expand your 3 betting range against a wide raising range, do it with suited hands, not unsuited high cards. Theres about 3 pages about my preflop error cold calling with an unsuited hand (A7o?) with submersible leading me to the same conclusion.

I still sorta prefer someone 3 betting with the wrong widening than someone not widening their 3 betting range at all, is the main reason I personally dont feel like this is a dead horse worth beating into OP, but ywah, do it with suited stuff next time.

EDIT: i read deeper into the posts i missed and see its been debated somewhat - i was lookin to chat about specifics as well as what hands and why and when - feel free to peruse if curious

if you get a chance - could you talk about opening up your range to capitalize on situations like this? Specifically - what hands do you think you're adding to a standard 3bet range?
i think this would be really helpful both for the discussion but as a general informative spot to other players reading the strat threads/improving their game etc

I agree KTo isnt my favorite and while I've certainly learned some discipline with my game, I can say with certainty i've had some impatient spots but generally if I'm going with something like KTo, the criteria is something like: 1) I have specific reads regarding mistakes villain makes and critically these allow me to better estimate range/reaction across the post flop rounds 2) villain's mistakes tend towards over folding or over extending but NOT over aggressing/applying lots of pressure since KTo has less nut hands it can flop/turn and i will be forced to release too often outside miracle flops/turns - aka not relying on luck as much (quantifiable difference between KTs and KTo isnt huge though so not eggregious).

Also - stack depth is important. 100BBs isnt really deep enough to dive into head first, i prefer something that rounds up to 200 without too much rationalization. (175 vs 151BBs)

All that said the argument for suited Ax hands, suited Kx hands or if we're closer to 200BBs, suited 1gappers and connectors that will potentially flop me strong draws (eg 65s, 87s, 75s, 97s with weight towards connected. In that stack depth range of 150-250 though smaller PPs work well too but more because the ease of getting away from a hand if you dont flop gin but enough in effective stack to provide more than sufficient implied odds.

I will 3! hands like this in ideal conditions. The most obvious case would be a tell, but that's kind of a separate category.

I also think it could be ok against extremely bad players, but of the more passive variety.

If V is very poor, face up and passive we can keep pots small and the high card value might be ok.

This V might be a loosing player because he plays too loose, but he likes to play big pots and sometimes thesr guys are actually somewhat skilled and just dgaf about the money. So as others observed, you want to use hands that can cooler him and avoid 2nd best hands.