$3/6: Raise river with 2nd Nut Flush?

Don't include results in your OP. They bias advice. I edited them out. Please wait until discussion dies down, or a minimum of 24 hours, to reveal results, including hero's last action, any further V actions, and hands shown down.

I won't comment on river, as I saw results, but is this game particularly wild? Because your actions throughout border on maniacal. What image do you think Vs have of you? What reads do you have on them?

K8s is trash. Sure you have the button and are relatively deep, but I'm not calling a HJ open with it unless he or V1 is a big donator we can't wait to play hands against and we don't mind that we'll usually be folding flop.

AP to flop, we flopped a FD and a gutter. Not bad, but I hope we have a decent image for our semi-bluff.

AP to turn, I don't like the barrel. We got called in two spots, and the NFD is one of the most likely hands to have done so. It now has TP. KQ now has the nut straight. Just take the free card. That you can often do so is one of the advantages of semi-bluffing flop.

As I said, no comment on river, since I saw results.

Think I would prefer to 3b this hand - doesn't flop well and we're IP over 200 bb where position becomes more important. Flop looks good - turn I would check behind given we were called in two spots and the A is not a good card for us. I would jam the river.

Preflop this is raise-or-fold territory--and with no reads, it seems like an easy fold.

Grunch:

PRE - I would prefer to 3B or fold with K8s on the BTN. This hand doesn't play well multi-way, even in position.

FLOP - I could go either way with flat calling or raising here. Think I prefer flat calling, just because there's already three to a straight on board and it would be gross to get 3B.

TURN - slow down and check back when both opponents call our flop raise. This is definitely not a spot to risk getting blown off our equity by a check raise.

RIVER - just call. Not expecting to be good here much more than 25% of the time. We're basically hoping V1 has J9cc, and that V2 doesn't have AXcc. Fold if V2 raises.

Results are also in the title of the post, so not sure editing them out helped! Overplayed or cooler. Id say overplayed

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Are you seeing the original thread title? I edited that as well. If the old one is still showing up, can you please tell me what interface you're using?

I can't see results anywhere.

This hand is crazy 😉 3bet pre is probably better, but I get the call in position -- depending on opponents? I mean, we have no reads, so hard to comment.

You over-played your hand, but you did follow through, which I appreciate. River is very tricky -- we definitely need reads.

Apologies for jumping the gun and posting the results. Will keep that in mind next time.

Definitely a wild and loose game, probably not the best call pf but I guess against a normal 3x open from MP and one caller in front of me, it is okay to flat with a good suited King?

On the flop, just felt weird when the BB(V2) led out on a weird and connected board. Felt like he might opt to check raise with a straight, two pair, or sets kind of hand. I did put V1(pf raiser) on some big cards or overpairs. With a king high fd and a gutter, I wanted to apply pressure on both opponents whose actions felt relatively weak.

When the ace came on the turn, I felt like I could probably get away with a second barrel? BB (V2) could have some draws that were worse than mine, and V1 might not be able to hang on with overpairs like Queens or Kings, KJ, QJ ype of hand when the overcard came. Also didnt want to check behind and give up if I bricked out.

When the Qc arrived on the river, I was very excited until BB checked and V1(HJ) basically bet 3/4 of his stacks oop. I don't think a fold is ever an option with the second nut flush on a 3 card flush, non-paired, no straight flush board, or is it? With the opponent leaving so few behind, I wasn't sure if I was supposed to raise or try to tank call and draw V2 in.

So what is the reveal?

River V2(BB) checked, V1(HJ) led out $550 bet with only $252 left), I decided to shove my remaining $1002 in total. V2(BB) tanked for a long time before he called as well. V1(HJ) snapped and showed AcJc. V2 showed 3c4c. I lost the main pot, and won a small side pot of $400.

Board Js 10c 7c As Qc

Hero: Kc8c
V1(HJ): AcJc
V2(BB): 3c4c

This is wishful thinking. Yes, both of those things might happen, but the chances of both of them happening is very small. As I said in my first response, the NFD is a huge part of their flop ranges, given action, and that just improved to TP and NFD. That is never folding.

Probably not, but it is a sigh/call, not a snap. As mentioned above, the action seen so far makes a NF very likely. Our hand is too strong to fold, but it's definitely a bad raise. V2s call is horrendous.

What Garick said is another reason to check back turn. This pot was way bigger than it should have been. It's a small miracle we didn't lose more, because V2 called.

No, it's not a good idea to flat with K8s. I wouldn't call that a "good suited king". K9s can at least make a straight, so "good" suited kings would be K9+, preferably at least KT+.

Another problem with hands like K8s is what we see here - we have a draw to the 2nd nut flush, and a draw to the low end of the straight, with a high card that brings in a lot of our opponents' draws. Even if we make our hand, it may not be good against multiple opponents.

Even a high-low combination like K2cc can sometimes be more playable, because they unblock more worse flushes. Like, on a board of Ac9c4h3c2h, opponents can not only have the Q, J, or T-high flush, they can also have combos like 87cc and 76cc that will have a hard time letting go.

I'd avoid playing high-middling suited combos like K8s to K5s as a flat call, and prefer to play them as raise or fold.

It is weird for the BB to donk out on the flop, when the PFR is next to act. He should go for a check-raise there, if he's trying to get folds, or looking to quickly build a pot. Despite his large stack, maybe he's a fish, and has just been running really well. Hard to think otherwise when he calls the river.

V1's flat call of the BB's donk does look pretty weak, and if I thought the BB was FOS, I'd be very tempted to raise. However, 1) I'd be more tempted if the BB donked for 1/3 pot or less, not >1/2 pot into three opponents, and 2) if we're going to raise with our combo draw, we should probably raise bigger than 4.5x. The raise should be at least 5x, if not 6x, to discourage loose calls.

The ace on the turn is a terrible card for us to try and rep, after both opponents call our flop bet. Just doing some simple hand-reading and card removal, I'd expect someone to have the NFD that makes TP, or a hand like AJ that makes top 2 and isn't going to fold if we barrel. There's a good likelihood someone has exactly AJcc, and might decide to bomb it over our bet.

If V1 has AA, he's not folding top set yet, not for a 40% pot bet, and never after V2 calls.

Even if V1 has KK or QQ - those combos pick up inside straight outs, and a lot of those combos are going to contain a flush draw blocker, if not blockers to both flush draws. KQ makes the nuts on the turn, and KK/QQ both double-block those combos. If I'm V, I'd be wondering if you would really play 98 this way, raising the flop and barreling the turn when the nuts change, and either of your opponents could easily have KQ.

When you bet $400 into $600, V2 is getting 2.5 to 1 on a call, in a spot where you'll never have AA, and not very many big suited aces (because you flatted pre). Hands like KJ, KT, QJ, and QT are about all you're folding out there, assuming those hands actually do find a fold, when he's big stacked, and has a pair + a draw to the nuts. I wouldn't expect him to fold any hand that was good enough to donk-call the flop when V2 calls and you raise.

Once V2 calls, V1 is getting 3.5 to 1 on a call. If I'm V1 holding KK/QQ, I don't think I'd be ready to fold to your turn bet, double-blocking the nuts, possibly having the best hand, with 4 outs to an inside straight, possibly two outs to a set (assuming a set would be good, and not lose to a straight or flush), and especially if my KK/QQ has a flush card, if not one of each (KsKc / QsQc), reducing the number of outs available to complete my opponents' draws.

This is why you should check back. Even though our hand has no showdown value, your 2/3 pot bet isn't folding very many better hands, and isn't denying nearly enough equity, because there are so few worse hands that call the flop and will now fold the turn.

In position, we can check back, take the free card, and put in a bet on the river if action checks to us again, either for value or as a bluff. Like, so what if we check back the turn, and the river bricks. We raised the flop. We can still rep some hands that were strong on the flop, didn't like the turn, but can now bet for value when action checks to us again. If we make our hand, and someone bets into us, we can call (though I'm never loving it with the 2nd nut flush or the low end of the straight).

On the river, yeah, we made the 2nd nuts, but there's also 4 to a straight, and the flush is so obvious that when V1 bets 3/4 of his stack, yet less than 1/3 pot, I don't think he's ever bluffing. The only question is whether or not he bets this way with worse.

And remember - he opened pre, c-bet the flop, over-called our raise, and over-called our turn bet. The best hand he could possibly have here (that we beat) is J9cc or J8cc - a flopped top pair with the FDFD and inside straight draw, with a blocker to the flopped straight. I'd think he might 3B on the flop with those combos, rather than over-call, on such a wet and dynamic board.

Sure, he could have one of those two combos, but then he unblocks the nuts and 2nd nuts. If you were V1, would you be blasting off here, on the river, with the 3rd nuts, the way this hand was played? I'd be check-evaluating with the 3rd nuts, after getting raised on the flop, and against two opponents who have me covered.

When he flat calls the flop on this board, I'd be putting him on 1P + a draw to the nuts, or KQ. When the As comes on the turn, and he doesn't blast off, I don't think he has KQ. Is he really going to check the turn with the nuts (remember - he can't have KQcc, so the only KQ combo with a re-draw to the nuts is KQss), then bet 3/4 of his stack when his hand gets downgraded to the 26th nuts?

Should we fold? I'd have a hard time folding the 2nd nuts getting 4.3 to 1 on a call. It might be easier with V2 still to act, and having us covered. I *might* be able to find a fold here, sometimes, the way this was played.

We definitely shouldn't raise. I don't think I'd be able to avoid tanking before calling. Not sure it matters if we tank or snap call. I wouldn't expect V2 to call with worse, and am very surprised he called with a hand as bad as the one he had. Maybe he thought V1 was over-valuing 2P and you had a straight.

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Although now I come back after a few days yes, title had changed

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Weird it kept the old title up so long, but tapatalk gonna tapatalk.