Line Check with 87s on the Button 4-Way

I take it the suit for your hand wasn't spades? Happy New Year, by the way. May 2025 treat all of us like the first days of Party Poker.

If you're going to bump pf to thin the herd, I'd think it would have to be more than 15 at 1/2. Which is a question for the class: what should a BU raise over 2 mp/lp limps be? I always see people opening to 10-15 first in at 1-2. Which makes me think 20 might be appropos here.

Loose passive has 33, btw. Maybe QQ. Are they silly enough to do this with some variety of AQ?

Folding to their silly clickback with middle pair and no real redraw.

Ending up 4-handed against this crowd with 8-high isn't great. With these deepish stacks, I'd raise to $20 if I though I get it HU, or at least no more than 3-handed.

I'd probably bet 1/4 pot on the flop with the pair and flush draw.

As played, I understand why you called the min-raise, although this forced you to fold the turn. Since on the flop you were a coinflip with both Qx and better flush draws with overcards, it probably would have been better to 4-bet (or even shove) in order to try to get Qx to fold...or at least to not lose your equity on a bad turn card.

Bet flop large. As played, would jam over the min-raise unless passive range is exactly 2p+.
One good reason to bet flop large, is that stacks allow Hero to triple-barrel bluff vs the deeper opponents if he chooses.

I think folding is fine as played, even if villain has a few goofy semi-bluffs.

*I'd say $15 sizing is mostly fine PF, but only because I don't want to talk about the best ways to adjust PF ranges and sizes given the high $8 rake.

Sorry everyone. Hero had 8s7s, two spades. Hero had flush draw and middle pair on flop.

Against calling stations, I think I'd be over limping a fair bit with the more middling parts of our range, and raising to a bigger size with a fairly linear and stronger range. I don't hate the raise with 87s, but I wonder if a larger size wouldn't have thinned the field a bit.

I take it our 87 isn't spades? Since we're so multi-way, I could see betting around 1/4 pot ($15), or just checking back. I guess I prefer a small bet to checking back.

V1's min-click is interesting. What's he repping? I'd think 2P+ would want to raise bigger. I'd wonder if he just has a weak top pair and is raising to see where he's at. But even that doesn't make a ton of sense with two players left to act still, and hero with all the big Qx and over-pairs in his range. Sort of feels like he slow played something pre, like a big PP, and is trying to make up for lost value.

I'd fold if we just whiffed, but I don't think I'm ready to give up with middle pair just yet.

Turn card sux. Nothing to do now but fold. I might show the 8 as I muck, to see if he shows his hand. Won't be surprised to see a monster.

Overall, seems like you didn't make any big mistakes here, Andrew.

In this case, with spades, I'm definitely not folding flop, ever.

3B'ing flop is an interesting option. At this stack depth, I think all in is the only size. V has $170 remaining, and the pot would be $282 if we jammed, so he'd be getting 1.65 to 1.

I dunno. In my observation, most low stakes players don't have a check-raise-fold button. Even though his min-click looks like he might fold to a 3B, with a short stack, he might decide he's just going with his hand, and call it off if we jam.

Assuming he doesn't have a set or 2P, we have 14 outs to improve to 2P+. Seems like we've got enough equity against Qx to jam, and be indifferent to a call. With only about a 28% chance to improve on the turn, a jam on the flop seems awfully tempting.

Against described calling stations, not sure raising 87s is good even on the button.

AP, why not 3-bet jam flop? You certainly have enough equity. We are indifferent whether a Q folds or calls.

Also, now that we know hero has spades, I wonder about the flop c-bet size.

I think multi-way we're supposed to keep it small, but with a vulnerable pair and a draw to a middling flush, I wonder if we don't prefer to just take it down on the flop with a big bet. But in that scenario, I'd think we'd be pot committed pretty quickly, especially if we get raised by V1 on the short stack.

Supposing we did c-bet large, say, full pot, and V1 check jams. I guess we fold at that point? I dunno. If we bet $50 and he min clicks it to $100, I don't see any move we can make other than jam or fold.

Didn't see we had spades. Also not folding, (especially after some clarification about what a minclick is from Vs) but I do have a question about minclicks in the LLSNL population.

In Texas, with poor players, and IM (limited) experience, it's very often a big hand that is trying to not scare off callers, yet wants more money in the pot, and isn't good at geometrically estimating bet sizing. Or it's someone noticing this effect, and trying to rep a monster.

Conversely, in many of your games, it much more often is a mediocre at best V "trying to see where they're at." So, middle pair, top pair/garbage kicker, etc...semi-bluffing with some value, but not anything like a set/boat/quads, aces pf. Is this characterization accurate?

As to the hand, we have MP and a flush draw on a pretty dry board otherwise. V has 110 bigs or so and merely called out of the BB. They're also a LP, but can fold. LPs generally don't CIB. Assuming it's: 88, 33, some variety of Qx (I used Q9o+, Q7s+, KQ), I get that we're a slight dog on the flop. Like 54/46. We're beaten soundly on this Q turn.

AP, I fold turn too. And I like Doc's idea of shoving flop for max FE on a weak bet by a V who can fold, seeing two for our draw, etc..

I like the flop cbet, although I think checking back is cool with this hand as opponents never believe that you have the flush when you check it back. I think in general we can mix in check backs with our draws that have showdown value (like pair plus FD, or some A- and K-high flush draws) and always bet flush draws that don't have showdown.

When we bet and get clicked, I think I would just jam. Opponents at $1/$2 may just fold AQ/KQ and AXss/JTss, all of which we are flipping against. Worst case scenario is we are up against the one combo of 88 and we still have good equity in that case.

As played it's a sad fold when the Q pairs on the turn.