1/3 NL - TopTop against the friendly OMC

1/3 NL - TopTop against the friendly OMC

1/3 NL
9 handed

The Villain just recently turned 80.

- he's been on the scene forever and I've played with him since the limit days in the aughts
- still got all his faculties
- plays about 3-4 hours 5-6 times a week for upwards of 1000 hours per year
- he's a slightly winning player just because he's tighter than most (which isn't saying much) but isn't a big winner due to being rather face up / everyone knows he never bluffs / missing thin bets
- very pleasant guy and we get along great; he actually stated last session that we should have a "no wack" rule (a friendly agreement between some players where they don't destroy each other, not that we ever get into hands against each other); I politely declined, stating I always try to play my best against everyone
- preflop he typically raises KK+ and sometimes AK/TT+; not a big limp/reraiser (although he can limp/flat big hands)
- but like most OMCs, he often attempts to see a cheap flop with a wide range of hands from most positions: 22+, Axs, Kxs?, all broadways (sooted or not), suited connectors/gappers; he'll dump most of the offsuit stuff to a raise, maybe seeing a flop to a reasonable raise otherwise
- never tarps with his monsters on later streets and will mostly turn his monsters face up by betting them eventually; like most OMCs, he is MUBSY and never bets for thin value himself on later streets on scary boards (even it it makes no little sense for his opponent to have the scary hand)
- he sees me as a winning player, sort of a kindred spirit in our tightness where we often joke about how many hits we get in a session ("GG, I had a two hitter last night!"), although undoubtedly thinks I overplay/overvalue too many hands preflop and sometimes postflop

Preflop (9 players): A T on the Button
Villain limps the HJ, Hero $15 on the Button, loose SB calls, Villain calls

Flop (3 players, $48 --> raked to $42): T 6 6
Checks to Hero who bets $20, SB folds, Villain calls

Turn (2 players, $88 --> raked to $78): 9
Checks thru

River (2 players, $88 --> raked to $78): 2
Villain checks, Hero bets $30...

Q1: Preflop feels ok but I'm guessing an overlimp isn't horrible. I can win against dominating hands when we both whiff. SPR ain't great but I can easily escape from Villain if he shows any aggression / use my position on Ax flops (so I won't allow stacks to be in play against him even at this small SPR). Ok?

Q2: I have to admit, I don't factor in rake when sizing. But upon review, my sizing looks a little too big in the raked version of the pot, no?

Q3: The "NL is all about thin value bets" part of me value bet the river. But the combos math part of me kinda hates it, especially against this opponent and dynamic. Too thin?

GcluelessNLnoobG

) 5 Views 5
23 January 2025 at 05:18 PM
Reply...

21 Replies



Q1: I would still raise, but if there were multiple limpers I think it's "ok" to over limp but I would still raise if it was me.

Q2: I never really factor the rake in when counting pots, but my max rake is only $7. I actually thought the sizings were a bit too small, but that's just me.

Q3: Against this type of villain I'd be betting the turn and if he called I would most likely check back the river. Since he checked, I don't think he has a flush or a 6 so I might of bet around 40/45 hoping it looks more like a bluff so he tries to hero call something.


I think if he had a flush or a boat or even trips, he would have made the "afraid you won't bet" bet that is a staple of the OMC's arsenal.

If he raises, he has a straight flush. I'm almost not kidding.


Based on your read it sounds like you're well ahead of V's range, he will call a "reasonable" raise with most of it and you might get it hu in position this sounds like a slam dunk raise. Nice to see a hand where GG doesn't limp pre.
I like how you played the rest of the hand too. A lot of times you bet turn he calls then donks river and you know you're beat but the price is good. This way I think you can get called by stuff (lower pairs) that wouldn't call turn with the flush out there.


Are you playing against yourself? LOL. JK 😉

Pre is fine and good -- I'm glad you raised. Flop is good -- zero reason to check and size is fine. He should never have a 6. Checking behind turn is fine, but I might bet again if he's that mubsy and would have bet a flush (he should have only big ones, right?). River is OK, but is he calling (especially you) with worse? Maybe K/Q/J / T? That's about it, right?


by marchron k

I think if he had a flush or a boat or even trips, he would have made the "afraid you won't bet" bet that is a staple of the OMC's arsenal.

My guess is that against most he would most definitely donk the river with a boat. Against me, who he has a friendly relationship with, it's *possible* he might not and let me decide how much money is to go in.

He might donk the nut flush, but I think on paired boards he might just take the more MUBSy check route.

Doubt he is ever donking trips- with the flush possible.

GcluelessMUBSyreadnoobG


by Javanewt k

Are you playing against yourself LOL. JK 😉

Lol'd. 😀

by Javanewt k

He should never have a 6.

A couple of combos of A6s aren't impossible.

The river bet is the real sticky point for me. How are we doing combos-wise regarding what worse versus better calls? I'm well aware if we don't valuetown ourselves sometimes that we're not value betting enough, but geez the combo count looks poor here, no?

GcluelessNLnoobG


Quick and dirty attempt at combos:

Better:

QQ 6
JJ 6
AKss/AQss/AJss/KQss/KJss/QJss/A8ss/A7ss/A5ss/A4ss/A3ss/A2ss 12

Worse:

ATs 2
KTs 2
QTs 2
JTs 2
88 6
77 6

With bottom of his range possibly folding some of the time, and sometimes he shows up with non-wacking monsters, looks like a horrible bet if I'm ranging anywhere correctly?

GcluelessthinvaluenoobG


Yeah, I'm not thrilled with the river bet.


by marchron k

I think if he had a flush or a boat or even trips, he would have made the "afraid you won't bet" bet that is a staple of the OMC's arsenal.

If he raises, he has a straight flush. I'm almost not kidding.

Loved "I'm almost not kidding"


Given Hero and Villain are kindred spirits, I propose this question: If Villain was the PFR on BN and you'd limp-called from the HJ with a range of 77,88, JTs, QTs or KTs would you call his bet 30% on the river with any of these combos, after he bet flop and then checked a flush completing turn on a paired board?

Neither of you are sticky, bluff-catching types and neither of you tend to overvalue, so a clear xb on river. Preflop, flop and turn seem ok.


by DrTJO k

Given Hero and Villain are kindred spirits, I propose this question: If Villain was the PFR on BN and you'd limp-called from the HJ with a range of 77,88, JTs, QTs or KTs would you call his bet 30% on the river with any of these combos, after he bet flop and then checked a flush completing turn on a paired board?

Neither of you are sticky, bluff-catching types and neither of you tend to overvalue, so a clear xb on river. Preflop, flop and turn seem ok.

This is in line with my thinking. I feel like GG might check/call strong TX on this river against this size for math reasons, but I don't know that the OMC will think that way.

I also think the OMC is far more likely to be trapping (potentially even because he is trying to be nice) than GG would be in the inverse position.


i doubt anything worse calls your river bet. i guess Tx but you obv block that.


u could size down more if ur worried this is too thin - 15 looks like it gets called by any pair to me and i dont think u ever really see a x/r from described player / dynamic


Grunch:

PRE - I'd probably raise bigger, to $20, but otherwise this seems fine.

Q1 - I don't mind over limping on the BTN with some more speculative hands. ATs seems strong enough to raise. I don't see the stack depths in the OP, but if we're shallow, I guess maybe we can err on the side of caution and just limp along, especially if the players in the blinds aren't overly squeeze-happy.

FLOP - seems pretty standard.

TURN - love the check back with showdown value.

RIVER - seems like a good thin value bet / fold when he checks.

Q2 - I see nothing wrong with your sizing relative to the pot. Maybe depending on stack depth we can debate going smaller or larger.

Q3 - as described, V likely would have raised flop with trips, or led river with a flush, and maybe even a straight, when we check back turn. Hard to see what better hands he has here, unless he's sandbagging with an absolute monster, or limps in with QQ/JJ, or turned top 2P.

I dunno. If he's limping in with TT-QQ or turned 2P and playing it this way, I still think we can bet-fold, depending on our stack depth, to target his worse Tx.

All that said, seems like this bothers you instinctively for some reason, and if so, nothing wrong with trusting your instincts, and checking back, if you sense something fishy. Is this the hand when he decides to trap, instead of playing face up?

Or are you just expecting him to have T9 here, and flick in the sigh-call?


by DrTJO k

Given Hero and Villain are kindred spirits, I propose this question: If Villain was the PFR on BN and you'd limp-called from the HJ with a range of 77,88, JTs, QTs or KTs would you call his bet 30% on the river with any of these combos, after he bet flop and then checked a flush completing turn on a paired board?

Yeah, a little hard to switch places with him because I literally almost never see a flop if the situation is reversed. But if I somehow made it to the river with the range I'm giving him, yeah, I'm certainly not paying off the weaker part that often.

GcluelessalternaterealitynoobG


Results.

Spoiler
Show

He calls.

In the moment, I do not have the "oh ****, he called, so why the **** did I bet" feeling. Instead, I proudly declare "I have an Ace kicker with my pair of Tens" and table my hand.

He tables JJ and scoops.

Whether by design or folly, he got max value out of me by playing weak/tight and not once purposely reaching towards his chips. At the time, I felt valuetowning myself some of the time on the river was ok, but the more I think about it it seems pretty bad as I'm just targeting so few worse combos that actually get there and manage a call.

GcluelessNLnoobG


Sounds about right. That's how more than half the guys I play against play that hand 😉


Given it's you I think you should raise bigger preflop, assuming you fold more than I do and call instead of raise more.

But given it's almost you in the HJ, I'm less sure.

Flop seems big, but maybe you aren't betting as big of a range as I'd expect here?

I don't mind a turn check, but if we are going to bet once more then I'd much rather bet turn than almost any river.
Also there's no value in checking turn to bluff catch river, so if we are checking it's to get to showdown and hope we are good (unless a T or an A hits).

River exemplifies that this is one of those hands where you did everything well against the population, but when V is you/him it's not. Also vs. a good V who can bluff raise here enough it's not great either.


wonder if he folds flush if u rip river


by submersible k

wonder if he folds flush if u rip river

Was thinking the same thing. AT is a decent bluff candidate versus a player who leads flop with nutted hands. GG should have left his shell, gone for the OB and shown the uber OMC how the young kids crush!


Everything is fine except for the river. You appear to be going for thin value when in reality this is a bluff. I would have either checked or bet more than 1/2 pot. Too little of his range is going to call with worse on a paired board with a flush possible.

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